0:01

All right, Guardians. On

0:02

May 5th. Let's give the galaxy

0:05

one more show. I am... No,

0:07

not like that. Two. Get

0:09

hooked.

0:10

Woo-hoo! Totana

0:12

Phoenix! On a feeling. May as well have

0:14

a little fun, huh? Totana Phoenix! All

0:17

over again. I am... Groot!

0:20

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3. People

0:23

on Earth die when they're like 50. Are you about

0:25

to die? I'm not 50! May

0:27

be inappropriate for children under 13. May 5th. Get tickets

0:29

now. Hello, I'm

0:31

Craig Parkinson, and this is

0:34

the Two Shot Podcast. Pop the kettle on,

0:36

and let's dive in.

0:38

How

0:50

the devil are ya?

0:55

Yes, it's

0:58

Thursday. It's the Two Shot Podcast,

1:00

but more importantly, it's the season

1:02

finale of the Two Shot Podcast. This

1:05

is episode 21. I

1:07

know what you're saying, Craig. It's normally 20 episodes

1:09

per season, but look, it's our podcast.

1:12

We can bend the rules. And

1:14

I wanted to leave you, only

1:16

for a short, only for a couple of weeks, while we record

1:18

some more episodes on a high.

1:22

And more importantly, I had questions. How

1:24

do two best friends, who are collaborators

1:27

on theater and film,

1:29

how do they write their

1:31

debut novel together? And

1:34

also, remain best friends? Well,

1:37

that's one of the questions I put to Andy

1:39

Niman and Jeremy Dyson, who are this

1:42

week's guests. And of

1:44

course, you'll know Jeremy Dyson. Maybe

1:47

not his face, maybe not his voice, but

1:49

certainly his writing

1:51

talent. Of course, he's a quarter of

1:53

the League of Gentlemen, and he

1:56

co-created the brilliant,

1:59

much-loved,

1:59

cult classic sitcom Funland

2:02

which stars past TSP guest

2:05

Danny May's go back and listen to that episode

2:07

if you haven't it's a beaut and

2:09

if you haven't seen Funland go

2:11

check it out and if you haven't seen League of Gentlemen

2:13

what are you doing listening to this? Go and

2:15

watch all that and then come back. No no no

2:18

it's fine I'm only joking it's

2:20

a great episode we talk about the

2:22

process of their debut novel

2:25

The Warlock Effect and

2:27

what better place to

2:29

meet up with Andy and Jeremy than

2:32

in the podcast

2:35

Spiritual Home which is Maison Betteau massive

2:38

shout out to Tanya who

2:40

is always accommodating with tea,

2:42

pastries, space and just

2:45

to be in that iconic building and the sounds

2:47

and the smells whilst we record

2:50

is amazing. Look

2:53

Andy Nyman does not need any introduction

2:55

because he's been on this podcast

2:57

twice before if you haven't heard Andy's

3:00

episodes go back they

3:02

are a complete joy. I've

3:05

wanted Jeremy on for ages and it seemed a perfect

3:07

time to start asking these questions about this collaboration

3:10

with the release of The Warlock Effect

3:13

which I have to say is

3:16

it it's so much fun

3:19

it is a fun fun read it's full of

3:21

twists and turns it's

3:24

it's deliciously funny it's

3:26

full of love and

3:28

it's also full of magic

3:31

it's all set in 1950s London

3:35

and Maison Betteau where we

3:37

record plays a major

3:39

major part in this book so I'm sure

3:41

you're gonna love reading it and if you

3:44

haven't heard of it you're gonna want to read

3:46

it after this episode.

3:50

There is more to tell you but I'll see you at

3:52

the end of this episode and we can have a little

3:54

brief catch up then before we

3:57

kiss goodbye for a couple of weeks.

3:58

So let's

4:01

go to Maison Bateau

4:04

in Soho. No, that

4:06

didn't mean, that sounds terrible, doesn't it? That

4:08

just came out on Earth. Not

4:10

a poet, I know, I know what you're saying. So

4:14

I got the train into London. Flying

4:17

Solo, producer Griff was

4:20

up north. He was very,

4:22

very busy with another podcast. I

4:25

know, I know. Look, we all know where his

4:27

first love is, it's this. So don't worry, he's always

4:29

gonna be here. So I got the recording

4:31

equipment

4:33

and I went to

4:35

set up and Andy and Jeremy came to

4:37

meet me. We had some tea, I let them settle

4:39

in with some Lapsang Shusong

4:42

and some Earl Grey and some delicious

4:45

pastries from Maison Bateau. And

4:48

we kicked off and this is it. This

4:51

is the season finale of the Two-Shot podcast

4:54

with the wonderful Andy Nighman and

4:57

Jeremy Dyson. Enjoy, I'll

4:59

see you at the end. And

5:02

we're back this week in the spiritual home

5:05

of the Two-Shot podcast, Maison

5:07

Bateau. And it's a major

5:09

player, a major factor in

5:12

my guest's new book, it's a welcome

5:14

return

5:16

to Mr. Andy Nighman and a very

5:18

warm welcome to Mr. Jeremy Dyson and

5:20

their book is called, The Warlock

5:23

Effect. That's exactly right, it's a fantastic

5:26

read, I'm really enjoying it. Before we get onto that,

5:29

a few new questions that we start

5:31

our new guests with. You haven't had this before Andy,

5:34

so that's a new thing. I'm gonna

5:36

ask you some questions.

5:38

You just interpret them exactly how you like.

5:41

Okay. Andy Nighman, a good film or a good book?

5:45

A good film.

5:47

Yeah. Jeremy? Nowadays,

5:49

a good film. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

5:51

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Speaking of nowadays,

5:54

Saturday night or Sunday morning.

5:59

Well, that's

6:02

not complicated. Well, no, because something

6:05

what I was about to say was, Saturday

6:07

night for me has never

6:09

been like, eeee,

6:10

Saturday

6:12

night! It's always

6:15

pretty much the same. Blind date? Yeah,

6:18

blind date. Yeah. I mean, you

6:21

cannot be, for me,

6:23

good, shitty Saturday night

6:25

telly. I absolutely love it. Do you

6:27

think those days are gone, though? No!

6:30

No, Antondec! Do you mourn for

6:32

Noel Edmonds, the House Party? I

6:35

loved Noel Edmonds, the House Party. I

6:37

loved it. I love light entertainment, as

6:39

the Warlock Effect. We both have

6:42

such a soft spot for it. I

6:44

love it. No, I love... I

6:46

will...

6:47

In Antondec's Saturday night take away, that

6:49

happiest minute of the week or whatever, I'm

6:52

always crying at that.

6:55

I love it. I love it. Absolutely love it. I love

6:57

a good gotcha.

6:59

Love Saturday night. I did used to

7:01

love the chaos of Tiswas

7:04

of a Saturday morning, which sort of bled

7:06

through into early evening with the

7:08

turns. It was one of those defining things, wasn't it? It's

7:11

a bit like Beatles and the Stones. Yeah. Well, Tiswas

7:13

or East Wop Shop,

7:14

if you were all later. I

7:17

went on swap shop. You did not. Well,

7:20

it's a difficult story to recount. I

7:22

did. I went down to the Leicester Tigers ground. And

7:28

because swap shop was there, and I

7:30

had a

7:31

War of the Daleks that I

7:33

wanted to get rid of, because I think I'd had two

7:35

of them or something, one Christmas or something. Nigel

7:39

Starmer-Smith, who was the guest presenter

7:41

at the Tigers Rugby Ground that week,

7:44

called me forward to swap

7:47

it for something, and this nasty

7:49

girl wouldn't let me get through. She blocked my way,

7:52

so he moved on.

7:53

It was a heartbreaking memory. That you still

7:56

carry around. Still carry around. Find you. That

7:59

girl was. I

8:02

was in the audience of Get Set for Summer,

8:05

a short-lived summer BBC

8:07

Saturday morning series, when

8:10

the guests, the beat were on. And

8:12

Kiki Dee. Wow.

8:15

It was quite an experience. We're all

8:18

showing our age now. I'm going to give you one final

8:20

one. Me and my sister

8:23

went to, this was a few years later,

8:25

but the grand final of Bob

8:28

Says Opportunity Knocks. You did.

8:30

We did. We got tickets to go to

8:32

TV centre. Can you remember who won?

8:35

No. Just remember

8:37

being awed at watching Monk House.

8:40

And for those younger listeners who have absolutely

8:42

no idea what we're all talking about, Google

8:45

it. Jeremy Dyson. As we

8:48

get older,

8:50

less ambition or more? More

8:54

desperate ambition as you're kind of clawing

8:56

at whatever time is available

8:58

to you. Just the ambition

9:01

to have a good week.

9:08

Jeremy, I'll stay with you for this one.

9:10

Would you say you're a better host or

9:12

a better guest? Interpret that. Neither.

9:17

I'm so glad. I was fascinated

9:19

to hear. My

9:22

wife nudges me when I start

9:25

glazing over, which is increasingly

9:28

after very short spans now.

9:30

So no dinner parties for you in

9:32

the... Not if it can be avoided. Would you go?

9:35

I think more and more. I am a friendly person,

9:37

but yeah, it's just the

9:40

formal event. Yeah. So

9:42

we're on the desert island. We've

9:44

all imagined we're taking our desks, but this

9:46

is about films. More importantly,

9:49

horror films. Tell

9:51

me one

9:52

that you would take. I

9:54

mean, I take ghost stories, not because it's

9:57

the best horror film ever made. But because

9:59

of the memories. Our horror film,

10:01

it's the culmination of our... Well,

10:04

not the culmination, but the first incarnation

10:08

of our joint love and obsession of

10:10

it. So that's what I'd take. And

10:12

I think I'd track back from that

10:14

to American Werewolf in London, which

10:17

kind of was a seed for both of

10:19

us. Yeah.

10:20

It's both very good choices. Not

10:22

what I would have predicted at all. These

10:24

next... last two are cruel, I think. Go

10:27

on. OK. And a... Yeah.

10:29

HE LAUGHS Deron

10:34

Brown. Yeah. Houdini.

10:36

Yeah. Ali Bongo. Oh,

10:40

that's not cruel at all. Certainly

10:42

not Houdini. It'd be between Deron

10:45

and Ali.

10:47

I mean, Deron is a great

10:49

friend and I think one of the greatest

10:52

magical performers that have ever existed.

10:57

Yeah, I'd choose Deron. I knew

10:59

Ali as well, so I have warm

11:02

memories of Ali. But,

11:04

no, Deron. Deron,

11:07

probably. Ever so slightly crueler.

11:10

Go on. Can I guess?

11:13

You can. Rhys Stievelmark.

11:15

Sheersmith. Data's

11:16

pampton. LAUGHTER

11:19

Well,

11:21

you can't pick one. You can't. You can't pick in

11:23

between your children. You have to. The guards have

11:25

got a gun up their head. They're going to kill me. You

11:27

have to. And the three of them want to know the answer.

11:29

I'd have each of them for different moods, you

11:32

see. Good. This is

11:34

a good answer. Coward. So,

11:37

we're here to talk about the Wallach effect, but

11:40

let's talk about the Neiman

11:42

Dyson effect. Our

11:45

listeners know about you, Andy,

11:47

but together we don't know about how you

11:49

met. We know that you've collaborated before for

11:51

theatre and for film,

11:53

and I can understand that. I can get my head around

11:55

that. But

11:57

to get together and write a novel...

12:00

I don't know how that works, so I want to talk about that, but let's talk about

12:02

you two first, how you first met, and

12:05

how you felt that the collaboration

12:07

was going to work, because it obviously does. Well,

12:10

the strange thing was it had such a long fuse

12:12

on it, because we met when we were 15 years old, and

12:16

became instant best friends overnight.

12:19

We were thrown by fate together

12:21

into a dormitory on Jewish summer camp

12:24

in Somerset in the summer of 1981,

12:26

age 15.

12:29

So that was in 1980, but

12:32

we didn't start working together, or contemplate

12:35

starting working together until 2008. Wow.

12:39

So that's, what's that, 2937, is it 30? Is that 30?

12:43

Must be 37 years late. 37 years, which seems insane.

12:46

Yeah. I mean, we'd sort of

12:48

always, well, not always

12:51

actually, but probably from our careers.

12:54

Our careers had sort of started, we'd

12:56

always sort of talked about, oh, wouldn't it be fun

12:58

to do something together, and be really

13:00

lovely, and...

13:03

But there's a world of difference between that and

13:06

actually coming up with something, because

13:08

also you've got the pressures of trying

13:11

to keep your own career going, trying to pay your

13:13

mortgage, trying to look

13:15

after your families, and do all

13:17

of that. And also nurture a friendship.

13:20

Because we all have those conversations, wouldn't

13:22

it be great, because we would get on so well. But

13:25

that's a different side to a relationship,

13:27

it could harm a relationship. Absolutely. We were all

13:29

nervous about that. Well, I'd kind of been

13:31

through it with the League, because

13:33

we started as friends. And

13:37

that was an enterprise that grew out of friendship.

13:40

So I already had a map for what that journey

13:43

could be like, and what some

13:45

of the pitfalls of it were likely to be. So

13:48

maybe I was less nervous about that

13:50

when it came round. Yeah, and I think because

13:52

by then I'd been collaborating with Darren

13:55

for probably...

13:58

probably

14:01

about 10 years by then. So,

14:03

whilst Darren and I didn't start as friends, we

14:06

started as sort of people put together as

14:08

a team, we had become very good

14:10

friends. So, I think

14:12

that it's no accident

14:14

that our successful

14:17

collaboration is born

14:19

out of two people who have already had

14:22

lengthy collaborations where you're

14:25

sort of starting to learn how to navigate

14:27

that. And it is quite, it's

14:30

a tricky thing to get right, for sure, especially

14:33

when, as Jez and I are, you are best

14:35

friends in the world, you

14:37

know, because there's a lot of jeopardy

14:40

there.

14:41

So... Yeah, and it's a diff... Working

14:43

together is not friendship. I mean, it's

14:46

a blessing that friendship is involved and

14:48

a lot of what you do grows out of the friendship. But

14:51

the, for once, the better word, the professional

14:53

side of it, is a completely

14:55

different way of being. And

14:59

throws up all kinds of stuff that you just don't have

15:01

to go near when

15:03

you're in friendship. And you're

15:05

quite strict with that, about

15:07

crossing the line of friendship and

15:10

taking a different

15:11

howl. Well, I

15:13

think what happens, no, we weren't strict in

15:15

terms of setting ground rules or any

15:17

of that. I mean, some rules sort

15:19

of

15:21

found themselves very early. We

15:23

have this thing where we'll email,

15:25

it can be anything from an email

15:28

we want to send the

15:30

publisher or our agent or, you know, the

15:32

lyric when it was back in the day when we were doing ghost

15:34

stories, where one of us had draft something

15:37

and you'll send it to the other one and just put usual

15:40

rules. At the top, unusual rules,

15:42

which we'd set earlier on, was edit,

15:45

throw it away, finagle it, start

15:47

again, say it's perfect, whatever

15:49

you want is fine. And we

15:51

sort of

15:53

stumbled on that, decided on that very,

15:55

very early. So you had to

15:57

speak with one voice. You couldn't...

15:59

Because, you know, there's lots of temptations,

16:02

particularly with email, to just,

16:04

if something happens and particularly if it's emotive,

16:07

to just jump straight into typing

16:09

something out and to assume

16:11

that the other person is going to agree with you. And

16:13

that's been a harder lesson for me

16:15

to learn than Jez. It's been my way. Well,

16:17

we're very different. I'm

16:20

at times a bull in a china shop and

16:22

it's one of the things that makes our relationship really

16:25

work, not me being like that, but the fact we are so

16:27

yin and yang. But I've really, at

16:29

times, really struggled with

16:32

not just firing off in

16:35

anger or firing off,

16:37

you know, having worked and done so

16:39

many

16:41

productions on the other side of it. And I think one of the

16:43

things I've got from my dad is,

16:46

in terms of him running his own

16:48

surgery and stuff, is that

16:50

he was so efficient that

16:54

you just can't understand it when people don't

16:56

match your efficiency.

16:59

So it becomes

17:02

a real flashpoint for you. So

17:04

I've

17:04

done my best. I still fail at it,

17:07

but I've done my best to kind of rein

17:09

that in and try and fire it through Jeremy

17:12

first. Yeah, well, I think it's the norm

17:14

now. It's become habit. So it's less of an

17:16

issue. But yeah, that was the thing we had

17:18

to learn how to do. Was the book

17:21

a natural progression?

17:23

Yeah, it did open very naturally

17:25

because it actually started life as a film script.

17:28

Oh, did it? Although we didn't get as far as scripting

17:30

it, but we mapped out a whole first

17:32

act. It was when we'd finished just as we'd finished

17:34

Ghost Stories, just as we delivered the finished thing.

17:37

And we were talking about dream

17:39

projects next. And

17:42

we looked at the idea of actually not doing the obvious

17:44

thing of doing another horror film. And what if we did

17:47

just an absolute dream thing, like

17:50

which would have been an adventure film like

17:53

Raids Lost in Mark. And so

17:55

we had this seed idea

17:57

of the magician who becomes a spy.

18:00

So we started, we plotted

18:02

out quite fairly quickly without too

18:04

much struggle the

18:07

whole first act, which is the first part

18:09

of the book, and then

18:11

this opportunity came to

18:13

do it as a book because

18:15

an editor that I knew

18:18

was looking for books

18:20

based around magic and had come

18:23

to us, have you got anything and

18:25

it was well actually just so happened.

18:28

And that's often how things happen

18:31

like that, the stars are aligned. Because

18:33

I don't think we'd have considered writing it as a book. Never

18:36

otherwise. I'm just gonna blow my nose down.

18:39

Fine.

18:40

Looking at it

18:42

that hard, we probably won't. It probably won't. It's

18:44

a good voice. It proves it's

18:46

not AI. Yes. But

18:50

yeah I mean that was very natural,

18:52

the transition into it, but

18:55

very frightening for me that. In

18:57

what way?

18:58

Well again one of the differences

19:00

between us and one of the strengths that we have

19:02

is Jeremy is extremely literary, extremely

19:05

well-read, studious, retains

19:08

knowledge brilliantly. I'm

19:10

none of those things. You are when it comes

19:13

to magic. Well yeah to magic

19:15

for sure, but I mean in terms of literature.

19:18

So my sort

19:21

of gut strength

19:24

is just again it's one of the things that makes us

19:26

a good yin and yang. So when Jeremy

19:28

phoned me and said

19:29

you know we've got this opportunity

19:31

do you think we should turn Warlock into a novel?

19:36

My questions were all the same questions that

19:39

you know we're getting asked now how

19:41

on earth do you write that together? How do you do a novel together?

19:43

What is that? And

19:46

also for me just gigantic imposter

19:48

syndrome because the other thing is Jeremy's written a brilliant novel,

19:50

he's written brilliant books of short stories

19:53

and they're things that I'm sort of in awe of, skills

19:55

I'm in awe of. So it's about

19:58

finding a way through that and ending

19:59

exactly the same way you do when

20:03

you're writing your first play or doing

20:05

your first film. Film, yeah. Or

20:08

direct, you know. See I would have

20:10

had that in reverse when you said right when with

20:12

Ghost Stories the Play, okay here's

20:14

the deal, we're gonna write it, we're gonna

20:16

direct it. Yes. And

20:18

it was, I've not written a play, I'm certainly

20:21

not directed a play and yet this

20:23

was gonna be on in the main house of the lyric, how

20:25

are we gonna do that? And you said it'll be fine. But

20:28

you see you both bringing different skills

20:30

to the table and I can understand

20:32

and I can

20:32

see that collaboration as I can when

20:35

I first saw Ghost Stories for the first time

20:37

I owned and

20:39

you know cinema history has proved that

20:42

collaborations whether they're siblings

20:44

or you know it just works because someone

20:47

takes a backseat, someone knows to bring those sets

20:49

of skills but to write a book together

20:51

and also you mentioned about a singular

20:54

voice which this book definitely

20:56

has. Yeah but people do you know I

20:58

mean yes yes it's rarer but

21:00

yeah well coincidentally we can one of

21:02

the things we did as we were writing

21:05

the book of Warlock

21:07

is we did an episode of the new series of Good Omens

21:09

which is a book that was co-written between two

21:12

writers with individual profiles and yet

21:14

definitely has a singular voice

21:16

and a singular vision. So both

21:19

writers have you know both very

21:22

well-known writers and they're in their own role.

21:25

I think Good Omens was his first novel. Was

21:27

he? Yeah I think he'd written some short stories because he was a comic

21:30

book writer. Yeah. You know he'd written

21:32

scripts for comic books that's what he was done and because

21:35

it was you know a long time ago it was about 1990 I think.

21:39

So it wasn't

21:42

you know you knew it was possible and there's there

21:44

are other team there's some Nicky

21:46

French and which is a husband-wife

21:49

partnership. Sean French and whatever

21:51

is Nicky his wife or

21:54

partner. So you know you're aware

21:56

that it was doable. Yeah. And

21:59

then it was like... anything. It's like, and one of the

22:01

things Andy's taught me, you just begin. You just

22:04

begin and then, you know, whatever you meet

22:06

on the road, you sort

22:10

it out as you go. Sorry

22:12

Andy, go on. I was gonna say the thing that,

22:14

I'm aware because I'm an avid listener

22:16

of this podcast as you know, I love it. So

22:18

I'm aware that a lot of actors, it'll

22:20

be primarily actors, well

22:23

maybe it's shifted now. I mean it's shifted. It's

22:25

shifted so much, hasn't it? That, again, I don't know

22:27

if you know it or not, Jo, when I interview

22:29

actors

22:29

I very rarely talk about

22:32

work or off-camera

22:34

anecdotes because I find it all quite self-indulgent

22:36

and boring really. I'm much more about

22:39

getting to know the person as we've done,

22:41

you

22:41

know, twice with Andy. But

22:44

what I was gonna say was that anyone listening

22:46

to this who wants to write

22:49

or collaborate or the thing

22:51

that I would say is

22:53

it is no different from any other creative

22:55

experience. It's no different from learning

22:58

your lines. It's no different from going in on day

23:00

one of rehearsals and a

23:02

lot of it is fear management but there's

23:05

a unique thing in a collaboration which

23:07

I guess a rehearsal is, is that

23:10

it's a balance with your ego. You know,

23:12

on the one hand you need

23:14

your ego because we all need to have a little

23:17

bit of sort of Teflon coating so that we believe

23:19

in ourselves enough to weather the storm

23:21

of rejection and the self-belief

23:23

that gets you through thinking I'm not working

23:25

at the moment but fucking hell, I'm sure it'll be

23:27

fine next year. We'll just keep going.

23:29

You know, you need that ego at

23:31

your core but equally

23:33

you need to be able to just sort of use

23:36

your rules on things.

23:39

You have to be able in a collaboration to

23:41

know that you're both pulling in the same direction

23:43

and know what your

23:45

strengths are and your weaknesses are and

23:48

not be afraid to just give over to that

23:50

and then also within that you find little moments

23:52

that you think no this is really

23:54

important, this thing. You

23:57

know, so you're not point scoring with each other you're

23:59

just.

24:00

Yeah, and we had ten

24:04

years of working together when

24:06

we came to do this book.

24:08

So we had a lot of shorthand and

24:12

maps

24:13

of the kind of problems that you were going to hit

24:16

that aren't going to... aren't any different just

24:18

because the forms changed, because it's all a negotiation,

24:21

you know. And was the process

24:23

the same with regards to writing

24:25

as it was for the play version of Ghost

24:27

Stories and also the film? I think it was a bit

24:29

different actually. I think that my memory

24:31

of

24:33

the play and the film were

24:35

that we were, you know,

24:39

in the room tight, you know, talking.

24:42

That's a massive part of our process,

24:44

is just talking about anything and everything. And

24:48

then when you start drilling down into stuff

24:50

with Ghost Stories, we'd

24:53

sort of improv and record

24:55

those improvs at times. We only started

24:57

doing that when we were adapting the film

25:00

because we had to expand out those scenes and

25:02

make them more dramatic. Did we? How interesting. Because

25:05

they were quite discursive on stage

25:07

and we needed to turn them into something

25:10

that you could

25:11

act out more. And

25:14

that's why we started doing that. That's so interesting. Yeah.

25:18

But it was

25:20

pretty much... We wrote

25:23

every word of that together, I think.

25:26

See, I think it's

25:28

more mixed than that. It's more of a patchwork

25:31

because I think, yes, generally speaking,

25:34

there was more online together

25:36

in writer duet or whatever.

25:38

But there was also a fair bit of, let me

25:40

just have a go at this scene. Yes, you're right. Got

25:43

my memory in there. And then you'd pass it

25:45

back and forth for both of us. Yeah.

25:49

Yeah. And or if not the scene itself, you

25:51

know, like, let's hear a set of questions

25:54

about this scene here in my answers to

25:56

those questions. What do you think? Yeah.

25:59

It's very

26:02

fluid and the trick is to

26:04

go where it takes you and

26:06

not angst about it. And certainly

26:08

not angst about who's done what.

26:12

Because the audience doesn't give

26:14

a shit. And the

26:16

end result is the only thing that counts.

26:19

And it isn't over till the fat lady sings. And I learned

26:21

that on the league, which was a long

26:23

journey with a lot of fluctuation

26:26

and shift and changes in the dynamics

26:29

of how we worked across the 10

26:31

years that we were working together. And it never

26:33

mattered because the only thing that ever

26:35

matters is the end

26:38

result. It doesn't matter how you get there. The audience

26:40

does not care how you get there. Sorry,

26:42

go on. Well, they just want to be entertained.

26:46

Yeah. What's amazing across

26:48

all of the things

26:50

we do together, but I guess

26:53

any collaboration, is things

26:57

within the end product

27:00

that you have no

27:02

concept of how those things were birthed. You

27:05

just can't sort of, they just come

27:08

out of

27:09

this amazing process

27:12

where, you know, one person

27:15

has one idea that, not that,

27:17

but this that becomes this that becomes that that

27:19

becomes, God, what about that? No,

27:22

but what it could, you know, before

27:24

you know it. You've come up with something

27:26

or develop something that you would never

27:29

in a million years have got to on your own

27:31

ever. And neither

27:33

of you would. And yet here's

27:36

this, it can be a sentence.

27:39

It can be the end of the thing. It can

27:41

be something that unlocks

27:43

the whole thing. It's just such a, it's

27:46

the most wonderful thing.

27:48

And also for me, across the

27:50

years, one of the joys of collaborating

27:53

is there are days when you haven't got much in the

27:55

tank

27:56

and you know that there's someone else who has.

27:59

Who's there to support

28:01

you? Who's got your back? And that

28:04

works

28:05

because we both got

28:08

families and your own life,

28:11

complicated in a million ways. And

28:14

there are times when you both need, one

28:16

of you all just need to, I can't work

28:19

today or would you be able to do that? And

28:22

it's a joy to be able to

28:24

be there for each other as well. It's really

28:27

a

28:28

blessing. And vitally important.

28:30

Hugely. I still remember

28:32

when we were in prep

28:34

for Ghost Storage the Film, we were doing the

28:37

lens test. We've gone

28:39

to the cinema, it leads

28:41

to the view and Ola,

28:44

our DP, was showing us various

28:48

things he shot with the various lenses for

28:50

us to say which set of lenses we

28:52

preferred. And I got this call from

28:54

my daughter's plate, my daughter who

28:56

was about eight at the time played

28:58

in school orchestra and her finger

29:00

got caught in the keyboard

29:02

stands that collapsed on her finger. And

29:05

my wife wasn't there, that

29:07

day which was rare. And

29:10

that was because she'd broken her leg. And

29:14

so I had to, Andy said don't worry,

29:16

I'll finish the lens test. You

29:19

go and sort that. And I mean that's

29:21

such a blessing. Particularly

29:24

on something as all encompassing as directing

29:26

the film.

29:28

When you were writing the book, because

29:30

I keep going back to the singular voice because it really is

29:32

there and I don't read many books with

29:34

the collaboration, especially with them being best

29:36

friends. And are Jeremy Wright

29:39

saying you don't live in London? No, I live in Yorkshire.

29:41

So was it important for you to be in the

29:43

room or be together? How did that process work?

29:46

Was you handing over little bits and then you would

29:48

come together at the end of the day?

29:51

Well, firstly, we've worked

29:53

remotely pre-pandemic

29:55

just because of the distance between us. And

29:58

there's only so many times.

30:00

You want to spend 130 quid

30:03

on the train and give up

30:05

two days being away from your family.

30:07

You know, that we very quickly, it was my son Preston

30:10

had come across this piece of software called Writer

30:12

Duet. That you're basically writing

30:14

on the cloud and you're

30:17

looking at, you're both seeing it on the same screen

30:19

at the same time. Right. It's a screen writing,

30:23

it's like final draft. Yeah. Okay. So

30:27

we've started doing that and we'd

30:29

write over FaceTime

30:30

and the first half an hour of the first day felt

30:32

weird. And then very quickly realized

30:34

this is amazing. It's like, number

30:37

one, it's like being in the room

30:39

and it didn't feel any different. So

30:43

we'd written like that for a long time. So when the pandemic

30:45

hit, that didn't really affect our creative

30:47

process. If anything, it enabled it a bit

30:49

because one of the things that is the most

30:52

fruitful part of doing

30:55

it is consistency, is being able to come together

30:57

a lot. That really helps.

31:00

But what we did was, you

31:02

know, we did a huge amount of plotting, talking,

31:05

talking, talking, plotting, plotting,

31:07

plotting, and then just, you know,

31:09

pouring your own life and your own honesty into

31:11

it.

31:12

And then we'd

31:14

sort of divvy bits up.

31:16

And you'd do that, you'd do that, and come

31:18

back and we'd see in two weeks. And

31:20

if there's any thoughts or any things or anything you want,

31:23

just... Yeah, we'd go in chunks and then,

31:25

you know, give notes on each other's chunks and, you

31:28

know, do our revisions. And it

31:30

was a very fluid process. Yeah. And

31:32

then, you know, we had a great terrific editor

31:35

too, who

31:38

then after the first draft gave us brilliant set of

31:40

notes. And

31:41

then we went back and revised, you know, just

31:43

the same way. So it was a very fluid process

31:45

and it was

31:48

pretty straightforward, from our point of view. It

31:50

sounds an enjoyable process. Oh, really? It

31:52

was amazing. You couldn't wait to see

31:54

what the other person had written. That's another

31:57

thing, by the way, that's worth staying. I may have

31:59

said...

31:59

this the last time we spoke I can't remember but it's

32:02

proven itself truer

32:04

to me again which

32:07

is so often you hear about

32:10

you know producers on movies

32:13

being dicks with their notes and

32:16

Andy you've come across a few in your time surely

32:19

come on well they

32:22

exist but I feel blessed

32:26

really I haven't come across that many is the truth

32:29

and the same with director

32:32

I've come across more dicks directors and

32:35

their notes or lack of notes and

32:38

you know in this case an editor and

32:41

without a shadow of a doubt on

32:43

the ghost stories film the notes

32:45

we were given by our

32:46

producers and the financiers

32:49

were phenomenal and made

32:52

the film you know

32:55

markedly better and

32:58

in exactly the same way the notes we were

33:00

given by our editor made

33:02

this book completely

33:04

changed the

33:06

latter chunk of the book and

33:09

again ultimately what you want when

33:12

you when you hand something in or you you

33:15

know you do your first run through is

33:18

you want you know you secretly want the director

33:20

or the editor or whoever to go I've never seen

33:22

a performance better in my life don't change

33:24

anything this book is perfect

33:29

you know that's what you want this first cut

33:31

of the film is perfect nothing

33:34

nothing needs to be changed of course that's what

33:36

you want because you need your ego

33:38

pampered and you also

33:40

you're a bit lazy you don't

33:42

want to do any more work but

33:45

that's never the case and that's never ever

33:47

ever going to be true so

33:50

a first draft is just a beginning yeah

33:53

so it's really important

33:55

not to resist notes from

33:57

anyone from a director from an editor from one city

33:59

And something I learnt from you, Jess,

34:02

was something you'd often

34:04

say is... Wrong

34:07

note, right place. Exactly.

34:09

If you're getting a note, it's because

34:11

something's not working. Now, the note

34:13

that they're offering up may not be the right solution

34:16

or even the right diagnosis of the problem, but

34:18

there is definitely a bump there. Right.

34:21

So you need to pay attention to what the bump is

34:23

and work it out for yourself if you don't agree with

34:25

their diagnosis. Oh, that's a very good

34:28

bit of advice. It's good, isn't it? Yeah. That's really

34:30

good.

34:31

And you can take that and run with it. Everything.

34:33

Across the board. Across

34:35

the board.

34:38

So... Yeah.

34:41

How good were you individually about letting

34:44

things go? So if you've brought

34:46

something that you believe is fantastic

34:49

to the table, that it's this great plot

34:51

twist or... But then

34:53

somebody else went, actually, I don't think this is going to work because

34:56

of ABC.

34:57

I think we're both really good at that, aren't we? Yeah,

34:59

we listen to each other. And you're

35:02

always aware... It's always... You've always got that

35:04

sense. If they're saying it, there's a reason they're saying it.

35:06

There's something there. Because obviously there's trust

35:08

here between... And we also have the opposite

35:11

experience of us both going, whoa! So

35:15

you know you get that as well. So if you're

35:17

not getting that, then

35:19

some things arrive there and there's something to look

35:21

at. But also sometimes

35:25

you'll work it out together, won't you? Yeah, you will.

35:27

But

35:27

I mean, I can remember, and I won't talk

35:29

about the ending of ghost

35:31

stories for people who haven't seen it. But

35:35

there is a very big difference between the end

35:37

of the play and the end of the film. And

35:41

I really, really struggled with

35:43

that. We don't ever really talk about,

35:45

you did that moment, you did that moment, you did that. Because

35:47

you don't really think about it. But this for

35:50

me is a big... I think about this quite

35:52

a bit because it was a reminder as to where

35:55

your ego can lead you astray.

35:57

Because Jeremy...

36:02

Very, I don't know how quickly it was,

36:04

but had a real sense of what

36:06

the end of the film should be, a moment.

36:09

And that moment meant letting

36:12

go of the much

36:14

beloved end of the play. And when I say much

36:16

beloved, I've not talked about the audience, I'm talking about me,

36:19

probably because I did it for 13 months. You

36:21

know, and if you... Well, also, it was, this

36:24

is such a lovely piece of theatre. Yeah.

36:27

And I could not see my way into that

36:30

at all. I really resisted it. Because

36:32

it was a piece of theatre?

36:34

Well, no, because I thought the end is great.

36:37

The end is great of the play. And so,

36:40

with one arm behind my back, I had

36:42

to sort of find

36:45

it for it. But it was great because it relied on the fact

36:47

that it was happening in front of you.

36:49

In the play, in the play. And the minute you

36:52

put it on film, you lost that,

36:54

because it's not happening in front of you. Yeah. It meant something

36:57

different. So that's why

36:59

you couldn't just reproduce it or a version

37:02

of it. Yeah. And he was absolutely right. But

37:04

it was... That's

37:06

one... In all our 14, 15 years of

37:09

working together, that moment

37:12

was one of the hardest things I had to let

37:14

go of. And it's

37:16

so interesting when you get... And I knew instantly,

37:19

as soon as I had, that it was

37:21

like the right thing to do in inverted commas.

37:23

But I mean, it was like, of course, it

37:26

was.

37:26

But... So I do think about that

37:29

quite a lot, when you're sort of clinging onto

37:31

something that you love just because you love

37:33

it. Doesn't mean it's right. No. Or

37:35

doesn't mean it's going to work in that. Or it doesn't mean letting

37:38

go of it means it's a bad idea. It's

37:40

just not what's required

37:43

sometimes. In that moment. In that

37:45

moment. In this version. At

37:47

this time. And also, there's

37:50

no such thing as a

37:51

wasted idea. Because

37:53

suddenly you'll find

37:55

two years later when you're talking about something else,

37:57

it'll be like, oh, do you remember you

37:59

that thing about, blah, blah, blah, we let it go.

38:02

That'd work here, wouldn't it? You know, it's just,

38:06

you just have to. No work wasted. No

38:08

work wasted, yeah. You must have a huge

38:10

file that

38:11

you just throw everything to. We haven't.

38:16

If anyone finds it, if you send it, it's at his

38:18

scraps.

38:23

National Geographic presents. What

38:25

I'm asking you to do is dangerous. You

38:27

need to take your time to think it through. No,

38:30

I don't. What do I do? We

38:32

can't save everyone. Look, if I

38:34

don't try, I don't think I'll be able to live

38:36

with myself. What are we supposed to do? Some

38:39

stood by. Anything. You have to.

38:41

She stood up. There has to be a line. Belle

38:44

Paoli is me, Geeze. There has

38:46

to be me for this to work. A

38:48

Small Light, Limited Series premieres Monday,

38:50

May 1st at 9. Stream on Hulu and

38:52

Disney+. So, you open Google Chrome

38:54

on your phone, you're hunting for a super rare first edition

38:57

vinyl of a band you're obsessed with. When

38:59

you're

38:59

supposed to be working, but the site you

39:01

tapped on seems pretty shady. And

39:05

Daryl from IT just jumped up from his

39:07

desk. Oh no. He's

39:09

coming your way. It's a good

39:11

thing built-in malware production keeps you safe

39:14

and sound. Not from Daryl though.

39:16

Sorry. There's no place like

39:18

Chrome. Download Google Chrome on

39:20

your phone. Oh

39:21

no.

39:25

So, I think we should probably, without

39:28

any spoilers at all, but

39:30

tell people exactly what we're talking about. So,

39:34

who wants to sort of

39:36

go? I mean, I don't want to give too much away.

39:39

And I don't want to simplify anything. No. Because...

39:41

Well, we can give you the simple elevated

39:43

pictures as the holidays. Whatever

39:47

that means. So,

39:50

Louis Warlock is the leading magician

39:52

of his day. He's set

39:55

in 1953 and he's a big star on

39:57

the radio because this is

39:59

true that magic.

39:59

was a big thing on the radio in the 1950s. There

40:03

were several magicians who

40:06

made their name on the radio. And

40:08

Louis' reputation draws into the attention

40:11

of the British Secret Service, who

40:13

realized that his skills could

40:15

be repurposed for espionage

40:18

purposes. And he gets sucked

40:20

into a devastating

40:23

plot against the nation, and

40:26

which will have terrible implications

40:28

for himself,

40:29

something like that. Yeah. And

40:32

of course, the backdrop is beautiful

40:34

London. And it's so nice

40:36

to read real

40:38

London. And you go, I've taken that

40:40

walk, I've taken that taxi journey, and that's

40:43

exactly what it is. It's not like sometimes when we see it on the film,

40:45

where you get, well, that wouldn't happen. But you've just left

40:48

out some porn. Yes. How you would

40:50

pick a dill... Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's Americans,

40:52

they won't know. And one of the... It

40:55

is like everything we do, it is filled

40:57

with things that we love. We're

41:00

sitting in Maison Berto because Louis

41:03

has this

41:04

team of people that help him create

41:07

these show-stopping magic illusions.

41:09

And

41:12

there's this gang of sort of magicians

41:15

and comedy writers in the 50s, and they call the

41:17

brains trust. And they meet

41:19

in Maison Berto in the upstairs room. That's

41:22

their setting. But

41:25

the book... Because Maison Berto's been here since

41:27

the 1850s. It's really well known, yes.

41:30

Yeah, yeah. So we were trying

41:32

to find those bits of London that are unchanged,

41:35

and or if not unchanged that we

41:37

had a half memory of. Yeah.

41:39

And there's lots of real characters in this book.

41:42

Oh, it's full of

41:44

real magicians, real people

41:46

from the time, magicians'

41:49

names that we've changed, and

41:51

then we've created people as well.

41:55

It is full of things that we love. So

41:58

it's full of magic, which we both...

41:59

have loved our whole lives, you

42:02

will actually learn a couple of really great

42:05

tricks. Well, I wanted to ask you about

42:07

that because not being a magician

42:09

myself, I always thought the one rule is

42:12

you don't divulge the trick.

42:15

Correct. But here, I've

42:17

already learned and started to practice some tricks to

42:20

try and fool my son. Well, there

42:22

are two or three tricks that we teach

42:24

in the book because part of them, again, this isn't

42:27

spoiling anything, but part of the

42:29

book is there

42:29

is a book within the book called The Warlock

42:32

Effect. Within The Warlock Effect, there is The Warlock

42:34

Effect written by Louis Warlock

42:36

because part of the magic world is

42:39

magicians who teach

42:42

their routines and tricks to other magicians.

42:44

You can buy these lecture notes and books. And

42:46

Jeremy and I have shelves full of these

42:48

things. And the amazing thing

42:50

in the 50s, 60s, 70s

42:53

were these were working pros

42:56

selling the secrets of their

42:59

acts, of how they were making their living.

43:02

And the landscape of all that has changed dramatically because

43:04

now magic is very monetized. So

43:07

anyone who comes up with half an idea,

43:09

you can buy it as a download or an internet or

43:12

a trick on the internet. They're

43:15

not really audience tested. They're not really

43:18

amazing tricks a lot of the time.

43:20

Whereas back then, these legitimately were

43:23

how they made their living in nightclubs.

43:26

And they would be routines that were finessed

43:28

over decades. People

43:30

because the practice of magic was completely

43:32

different because you had musical,

43:34

you had the variety theaters, you had people going

43:37

out and doing their acts night after night after

43:39

night. And

43:41

so the magic that they were doing had

43:44

been honed to perfection move by move.

43:47

And that was the information you were often getting in these

43:49

books.

43:50

You were getting a lot of the

43:53

thinking behind the

43:55

magic as much as the moves themselves.

43:57

So there are a couple of things that sort of.

44:01

legitimize being able to teach these

44:04

two or three tricks that we teach. The

44:07

first thing is that the issue with giving away secrets

44:11

is whether they're earned

44:13

or not. So if we just turned

44:16

upon a chat show to talk about Warlock

44:18

Effect and just gave away a secret,

44:20

you know, explain, that sort of there's no

44:22

value in that. No. You

44:24

have to go and buy this book and read

44:27

the book and invest time

44:29

into that. And that's, you know, you can go into Smith's,

44:31

if Smith still exists anyway, and buy

44:33

a book on magic. You can just go buy kids magic

44:36

books or any conjuring books. There's no

44:38

issue with going and buying a book on magic

44:40

tricks, on having magic tricks explained

44:42

to you. It's all about investment, either

44:45

financial or time or intellectual

44:47

investment into the thing. Attention.

44:49

Yeah. So that's the first thing.

44:51

The second thing is that the three or four

44:54

tricks we

44:54

teach are all public

44:57

domain and are all tricks that

45:00

have been out. In fact, the card trick

45:02

that's in there is one of the very

45:04

first published tricks ever. It's about 1750. That

45:07

was published. Really? It is, yeah. But

45:10

one of the things that we do isn't just,

45:13

here's the trick, here's how you do it, is

45:16

with no censorship of truly

45:19

given the thinking of the magician

45:22

into how you would take a simple trick

45:24

and turn that very

45:26

simple thing into

45:31

something that would make your audience

45:33

member, whether that's one person

45:35

or 300 people, think,

45:38

well,

45:39

oh my God, what just happened?

45:42

And so often that

45:45

is the real secret behind magic.

45:47

Those shifts are only in

45:50

tiny bits of thinking. And

45:53

so all of that stuff and each

45:55

of the tricks, when you get to the end

45:58

of the book, you realize

45:59

each of those tricks are

46:02

there for a reason. And you talk about timing

46:05

before, every time the

46:07

extracts are there or is the trick there, it's when

46:09

I needed a little break or something

46:12

happened or as an intake of breath, certainly I

46:15

know there's a big one.

46:19

But I find them so heartfelt

46:21

in the way that they're written because of almost

46:23

like the diary entries of somebody.

46:26

Well we both are so passionate about it. Yeah

46:29

and I think one of the things that you're hoping

46:31

for and again this would stand against accusations

46:33

of freely and easily giving secrets

46:36

away is

46:37

we're trying to communicate our passion and

46:39

love for magic

46:41

as an art form in a way that

46:44

may inspire other people

46:46

to invest in it as well. Obviously

46:49

not everybody reads the book, that would

46:51

be silly. But the idea

46:53

that if there's just a

46:55

handful of people out there who get an interest

46:57

activated in that way because of what

47:00

they've read, that would be wonderful because

47:02

it is such a fantastic art form

47:04

and fantastic endeavor that

47:06

you want it to continue and to carry on

47:08

and you feel you want

47:11

to pass the baton on in whatever little way

47:13

you can. But

47:14

the book is so exciting and it's,

47:18

I see it, I can see it, right? It's

47:20

visually striking, I can

47:22

smell it, I can smell London, I can certainly

47:24

taste London. You know you talk about going

47:26

to the chop house to have a lamb and mint, I'm there,

47:29

I want it. And I know you

47:31

probably didn't but did you

47:34

have

47:35

one eye on seeing

47:37

it on the screen at any time in writing

47:40

it? Or do you have to, I know you don't have to

47:42

think like, I don't want to come across a cynical that... It's

47:44

not cynical, I mean, you know it's

47:47

really interesting to call it cynical because

47:49

I don't think that is cynical. If you are investing 18

47:53

months of your life to create

47:56

something and the rest, whether

47:58

it's a play or... You

48:00

know you there's no point

48:02

creating something that 12 people

48:05

are gonna see You want to try and create

48:07

something that as many

48:09

people in as many different forms

48:11

can enjoy? and In

48:15

whatever form that is so we're huge

48:18

Cinephile, you know, I know you are

48:21

I think I know reason why I said because I didn't want to be No,

48:23

no, it's not a criticism

48:26

of you saying that at all. I think that

48:29

to

48:29

create something knowing

48:33

You know The thing is not

48:36

to write it cynically It's not to

48:38

write the thing saying aha this

48:40

will be a great scene on telly this will be you

48:42

still got to be pure To the to the yeah,

48:44

which we've all read by the way I'm sure

48:46

we've all read there was never a point with this way

48:49

we was we were doing it in that way It

48:51

was always 100% a book because it's quite

48:53

it's quite a bookie book because it's got yeah

48:56

Playing all those literary games is I

48:58

believe you said but it's exactly a bookie book Is

49:03

playing

49:03

with the form and it's celebrating the fact it's a book

49:06

so it's not

49:07

a screenplay pretending to be a book It never was

49:10

but nevertheless it did stuff start

49:13

life as a film idea. Yeah, so

49:16

So that is part of its DNA as well We

49:20

had such a great time that whole extraordinary

49:22

journey for us of Ghost

49:25

stories of it starting with a play That

49:28

was on quite a small scale and

49:30

then ten years later. It was a film

49:34

That was it and it was a ten year ride.

49:36

Yeah from once the other but we

49:37

loved the layering We loved

49:39

the fact we never got bored of it. I mean which

49:42

was extraordinary never Oh, no,

49:44

we would staged it three times as well

49:46

as made the film of it Oh, yeah, if there was a production

49:48

if they said

49:50

End of this year. There's gonna be another production Will

49:53

you direct it in a heartbeat? We're

49:55

not bored of it. Just keep going back to it finding

49:57

new things. It's so exciting

49:59

And the idea of, not that you're

50:02

trying to contrive it, because good luck with that, but

50:09

the idea of starting

50:11

in one form, then taking it to another

50:13

form is something, it may

50:15

be peculiar, and we do have a particular

50:18

weird combined skill set between us

50:21

that enabled that to happen before.

50:24

So if that was, well,

50:26

please God, it's happening again, because we have the books now

50:28

been optioned, but it's

50:30

a joyful thing to us. And as Andy says, there's not

50:33

a scrap of cynicism in it, at

50:35

least I hope not. Well, of course there isn't. No,

50:38

slash 100%,

50:40

you know, this could be a great telly series,

50:43

or a great film, because that's

50:46

everything that's informed who we are as people

50:48

and writers. So

50:51

why wouldn't you create something that you think...

50:54

So because the existence

50:57

as an artist is so feast or famine,

51:00

why, you know, you're creating something that

51:02

you think, we're investing so much

51:04

time into this, and the book was different because

51:06

you're paid for the book, but you know, I'm

51:09

not breaking any codes by saying you're

51:11

not given a million pounds to write a book.

51:14

I mean, you know, very often you're creating these

51:16

things, like it is when you're writing a play or

51:18

writing the screen. We wrote the screenplay of Ghost Stories

51:20

on spec, completely. You

51:23

know, no one's paying you for those two years' work. So

51:25

by the time you get paid for the thing,

51:27

you're on minimum wage. Basically,

51:30

you just figure it out. My favourite thing to hold

51:32

in my head all the time is when we finished making

51:34

the League of Gentlemen film, the League of Gentlemen's

51:36

Apocalypse, Reece turned to me and said, we've made

51:39

more money windy cleaning. If

51:42

you toss it up hour for hour,

51:45

it's literally true. So

51:49

that's one of the reasons that why

51:51

not create something that you think... And

51:54

again, that goes back to that bit of ego in

51:56

you

51:57

where... I think,

51:59

yeah, this is... Why not why shouldn't

52:01

our ambition be I don't know that came

52:03

out aggressive I don't mean it today, but why

52:05

wouldn't you when you're creating something

52:07

also think just create You know

52:10

create something that could be a book a film a play

52:14

Graphic novel have sequels

52:17

What a new life a new for

52:19

why? Why can't it do

52:21

because people do that? So

52:24

I wouldn't why shouldn't we do that? I

52:26

mean it was no surprise to me when I found

52:28

out that had been picked up because when I was reading

52:30

I went

52:31

Oh, this is this is this is my

52:34

telly So

52:36

it's that that first big set

52:38

piece when he's blindfolded in the cards

52:41

like that is gonna be so exciting I

52:43

can I can smell it I can see all that

52:45

brilliant and cheap because it's from his

52:47

point of view such as the black screen for two I

52:50

don't know if I think it's gonna be Let's

52:54

talk about audio books because that's

52:57

something

52:58

That I've only done twice in 26

53:01

years and terrifies the life

53:03

out of me I just it's just not in me and

53:05

I know certain people as I'm sure you do for

53:08

you to show me It's just

53:10

they open their mouth and it's fluid and it all comes

53:12

out

53:14

Was it your idea to take

53:16

up that the microphone there and do

53:19

I really

53:21

wish people could see the eyes there He

53:24

wasn't going to it. In fact, he said the opposite

53:26

to start with you said that now I'm not gonna do it No, we'll

53:28

get someone else to do it. And

53:31

and then you then you realize we both

53:33

realize that was stupid Yes

53:35

Stupid because who else is gonna

53:38

read it as well as Andy and That's

53:41

what happened. Yeah, I mean I'm

53:44

with you. I don't know that I ever want to

53:46

do another audio

53:48

book that isn't something we've written I've

53:51

done a couple before and didn't

53:53

really enjoy it

53:54

Excuse me, I

53:58

loved doing this once I got into my stride but

54:01

it is hard, hard

54:04

work. I'm not a great reader.

54:06

I

54:07

don't mean sight-read, I mean just a reader

54:09

of books and it's

54:13

three and a half days of sitting in

54:15

a little studio with not very good lighting.

54:17

Intense. Intense and you're reading

54:19

off an iPad. Which

54:22

I find very very difficult. Oh I hate

54:24

it. You know now when you get sent scripts

54:27

and I certainly can't learn

54:30

lines on an iPad and I spoken to other people

54:32

who are similar age to me that can't do it.

54:34

I'm doing a thing at the moment. I've

54:37

had to

54:37

get special permission from the

54:39

producers to have my scenes printed.

54:42

It's absolutely mental.

54:46

So

54:50

I hope that people like the audiobook. The

54:53

reaction seems to be nice but and

54:55

I did have fun doing it but God I don't

54:57

know how people do that as a living. I mean it

54:59

is hard work. Really

55:01

is a different set of skills. It really is. Honestly

55:04

by the end of each day I mean it sounds dramatic

55:06

down the tinsel mine. I couldn't

55:08

breathe but you know

55:12

I couldn't focus my eyes.

55:14

You know I get to sort of five o'clock and you've been in

55:16

there since 10 and I genuinely

55:20

could not focus.

55:21

It's just a blur of words. So

55:25

it's really hard work. You're not reading it as you

55:27

would read a book for pleasure. No.

55:29

Although that was the joy of doing this

55:32

was that I hadn't read the book for a bit. Right.

55:34

So it really was. It

55:37

was pleasurable

55:39

to sort of oh that bit's coming up. This is

55:41

great. I love this bit. That was fun to write.

55:44

You know we had such fun with that moment. So

55:46

and there are so many fun characters

55:48

in the book as well. So

55:51

it was I really loved doing it

55:53

but it is hard work. Did

55:56

you have a favorite character on voice

55:58

in the audiobook as opposed to

55:59

when you were writing it.

56:02

Did anything new pop out

56:04

to you? Yes,

56:07

but I don't want to talk about which character that was.

56:10

I'll tell you off mic. Okay.

56:13

Yeah.

56:15

But because it'll be a spoiler.

56:17

We don't want that. No. But

56:19

speaking of audio book, would you be

56:21

so kind as to read a little

56:24

piece from the book for us?

56:26

Yes, have you got a book? I've got a book.

56:28

Yes. Okay, with pleasure. I'm

56:30

just going to take these headphones off so we

56:32

don't have an audio disaster. Let

56:37

me see. In

56:39

my bag here.

56:44

Oh, look at that. Oh, look at that. It's

56:46

one of those copies as well. It's one of

56:48

those. Can you imagine? Yes, that

56:50

we've done previously. Yeah. Just can

56:53

you remember where it is? Let's see.

56:55

The...

56:58

Yes. We'll

57:00

just put something nice. The sound of flickety-doo. Whilst

57:04

Jeremy's finding it, let me also tell you. The

57:06

book is a thriller, an

57:09

exciting thriller. It

57:11

is full of proper twists

57:14

and turns. Just to interrupt

57:16

you here. Yes. There was a certain point

57:19

in reading for me that

57:21

I went, I'm not sure I

57:23

trust anything in what I'm reading.

57:26

And therefore, when you're feeding

57:28

me all of this, because of the peek behind the

57:30

curtain as well with the

57:34

tricks that come out and the little entries from

57:36

the wall effect, there's

57:38

a moment about the magician's assistant.

57:41

Yes. And how...what she wears,

57:43

what she's doing, what they are doing. You

57:46

can't take your eyes off them for a minute, so you're looking

57:48

at this, but something's

57:49

going on over here. I'm like, this is what they're doing to me. I can't

57:51

trust anything in what I'm reading. And that is

57:53

really exciting. Yeah. Really exciting to

57:55

read. And I also just thought it's really...

57:57

I found it very funny. Good.

57:59

funny and also heartfelt there's a beautiful

58:02

section right at the start which I thought was beautiful which

58:04

I saw visually as well which yeah no spoiler

58:07

but that's about his childhood but they found

58:09

something haven't you okay so

58:11

this is that the bit you meant

58:15

yes yeah

58:17

yeah yeah Andy sorry I interrupted yeah because

58:19

I got too excited about the magician's

58:22

yes was there anything else I was gonna say one of

58:24

the other things that of yes that's what I was gonna say

58:26

one of the things that has surprised us

58:29

in the response to the book is

58:32

we all those other things we knew

58:34

were sort of what we were aiming for the

58:36

thing that is I think really surprised us

58:38

is it's also a love story

58:41

and that almost

58:44

is the driving force in

58:46

the book and that's been I think one of the things because

58:49

it's easy to think

58:51

that oh it's a very blokey books it's

58:53

all about magic but

58:55

it's really not anyway

58:58

so this

58:59

is I'll just twiddle the mic round a little bit yeah

59:03

so this is I'll

59:05

read the first bit I'm gonna certainly

59:07

just see if I'm in this it well this

59:10

is a little chapter

59:13

from Louie's book within the book very

59:15

good a chapter called

59:17

the real magic word

59:22

my dear friend are you still there are you

59:24

reading this if

59:27

you are and you are aren't you I

59:29

know you are I know you are I

59:31

want you to think of a magic word got

59:34

one well

59:36

I'm guessing you either thought of hocus-pocus

59:40

or abracadabra

59:42

yes there are a few other more obscure ones

59:44

out there like gazumba and

59:46

sims salabim but ultimately

59:49

it boils down to a choice of two

59:52

think about the two choices while I remind

59:54

you of what a magic word really

59:57

is it's a spell

1:00:00

An assembly of letters that possesses an

1:00:02

ancient otherworldly power, accessing

1:00:06

and bringing forth a force that ordinary

1:00:08

people cannot command.

1:00:11

Now, close your eyes and

1:00:13

whisper them both, but don't just speak

1:00:15

the words as you say them.

1:00:17

Imagine that you command and

1:00:20

affect that real power, the

1:00:22

power to bring something into being,

1:00:25

make something appear, to bring

1:00:27

it forward into our realm, however

1:00:29

unlikely, however impossible it seems.

1:00:33

Which one of the words felt

1:00:35

to you that it had the most power?

1:00:39

Somehow hocus pocus feels silly,

1:00:41

doesn't it? Like it's made for children.

1:00:45

Maybe that's because it's an invented word, it

1:00:47

has no real grounding, no absolute

1:00:49

power. It was first

1:00:51

created to describe the frivolous

1:00:53

tricks that 16th century jugglers

1:00:56

performed.

1:00:57

But abracadabra

1:01:00

is a different beast. Whisper

1:01:03

it again. As the word

1:01:06

trips off your tongue, you can

1:01:08

sense that there is something beneath it, something

1:01:10

deep and ancient. It's

1:01:13

there in its rhythm, its sound,

1:01:15

its music.

1:01:17

Without you even knowing it, that word,

1:01:20

a word that has survived since the

1:01:22

second century AD, evokes

1:01:25

a response that you can't put your

1:01:27

finger on.

1:01:28

You can feel the dark, ancient

1:01:31

power of it. Abracadabra

1:01:35

is a corruption of the Hebrew abracadabri,

1:01:39

meaning, I will create

1:01:42

as I speak. In

1:01:44

other words, the very act of speech

1:01:47

will create new realities. Words

1:01:50

have power once they are formed.

1:01:54

This I know to be true. And

1:01:59

in I'm Lord. For

1:02:01

those who do want to go out and get the audiobook,

1:02:03

I'm afraid it won't have the clattering

1:02:05

of teaspoons and the cutting of

1:02:08

sweet pastries, but I'm sure you had it there. And

1:02:10

that's a flavour of the Wallach effect.

1:02:12

I urge you to

1:02:14

go out and get it. Go out and buy it. You know

1:02:16

Andy, you know Jeremy's work. It's

1:02:19

out in all good book shops, isn't it? It is.

1:02:22

And online-y places. And

1:02:25

we're going to turn the mics off now and Andy

1:02:28

and Jeremy are going to tell me

1:02:30

who they're casting in the television

1:02:32

show, which I will keep to myself.

1:02:35

Just before you go, fellas,

1:02:37

another book? Yes. Yeah.

1:02:41

And that's another book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A second book

1:02:43

in this series. Yes. It was a

1:02:45

contractual obligation. Was it? Oh, yes. Yes.

1:02:48

One that we were absolutely delighted with. We loved

1:02:50

the idea of a big expanded

1:02:53

Louis Wallach world. Well, I can't

1:02:55

wait. As soon as they've read this, they

1:02:57

won't be able to wait. And I hope you have as much fun

1:03:00

right in the next 17 books. Bless

1:03:04

you, mate. Andy Nye and Jeremy Dyson, thank you so

1:03:06

much. Thank you.

1:03:08

And another episode

1:03:11

is done. What

1:03:13

a cracker. It was difficult.

1:03:16

Not difficult. It's the first

1:03:18

time, I think,

1:03:20

I'm pretty sure it's the first time that I've had two

1:03:22

guests on. But it was really

1:03:24

interesting in how they collaborated.

1:03:26

I can understand. I said in the episode, you

1:03:29

know, I can see how you

1:03:31

would work together on a play. Many,

1:03:33

many people work on plays and musicals

1:03:37

as a collective, as a group, as a duo.

1:03:41

But while it's not unheard of, it

1:03:43

is on the rare side to

1:03:45

best friends collaborating on a novel.

1:03:48

But I have to tell you,

1:03:49

my God, they pulled it off. The

1:03:52

Wallach Effect is out now. Go

1:03:54

and buy it from your independent

1:03:58

booksellers. Drop me a copy of it.

1:03:59

message when you have done tell me what

1:04:02

you think as we heard in the episode it has

1:04:04

been picked up by a

1:04:06

television production company one

1:04:08

that we're all very big fans of

1:04:10

so I'd say in

1:04:12

the next couple of years you're going to be seeing the warlock effect

1:04:15

on your small screens but you'll know it well because you'll

1:04:17

have read it two or three times by then. Let

1:04:20

me know how you get on drop Andy and Jeremy

1:04:22

a message on social media once you've done

1:04:24

so I know they'd love to hear from you. Again

1:04:28

a big shout out

1:04:29

to Maison Berto and Tanya for hosting

1:04:32

us today and as you heard

1:04:34

on the intro

1:04:36

Aston Mikes make our

1:04:38

podcast sound so

1:04:41

deliciously rich and beautiful

1:04:44

and that's why we record

1:04:46

on those and those only big shout

1:04:48

out to Aston Mikes. So what we're doing

1:04:50

we're going to have a couple

1:04:52

of weeks off.

1:04:54

I say a couple

1:04:57

it's a loose term I know it usually means two could

1:05:00

be two could be three. It's

1:05:03

funny as I walked into Maison

1:05:05

Berto today an

1:05:08

actor and comedian was on his way

1:05:10

out and we

1:05:12

stopped and we sort of acknowledged each other and

1:05:15

he said how much you loved the podcast so

1:05:18

it seemed like an ideal opportunity to invite him

1:05:20

onto the podcast.

1:05:22

I did he accepted we

1:05:24

exchanged numbers bam he's booked

1:05:27

for the next season. I've

1:05:29

got another stand-up comedian booked.

1:05:33

I've got who else have we got I've got

1:05:35

an actress who I love

1:05:37

I've wanted on for a long long time and

1:05:42

yeah she's filming with a friend of mine

1:05:44

at the moment. I mentioned

1:05:46

that the door's always open it's

1:05:49

going to happen which is great news. As

1:05:51

ever with the next season we're going to

1:05:53

be revisiting some old guests

1:05:56

for part two or possibly part threes

1:05:58

in some case and we're going to be

1:05:59

be broadening it out of course it's not

1:06:02

just going to be actors as always

1:06:04

with the Two Shot podcast we aim to bring you

1:06:07

the guests the voices that you don't

1:06:09

hear on every other podcast because

1:06:11

why would you there's so many out there but you're

1:06:15

such a loyal gang a loyal

1:06:17

family of listeners and myself and producer Griff

1:06:20

really really do appreciate it of

1:06:22

course we're going away for a few weeks but if you have

1:06:25

liked this season and you

1:06:27

know you've got a few quid to spare anything you

1:06:29

know if

1:06:29

I saw them in May's Ombato

1:06:32

I'd buy them at Crossborn maybe not now not after

1:06:34

Easter I'd buy them a big cream cake or if

1:06:36

I saw them in the coach and horses I'd buy them

1:06:38

a pint of Guinness you can do

1:06:41

that through our patreon go to patreon.com

1:06:44

at slash the two shot podcast and

1:06:46

find out what you can get in

1:06:48

rewards for helping us out bring

1:06:51

you the

1:06:52

best guests with hopefully the

1:06:54

best conversations and not

1:06:57

just you or another mill questions or your

1:06:59

20-minute press junk it's no no

1:07:01

no we'd like to spend time

1:07:03

with our guests and get to know who they

1:07:06

are and bring them to you

1:07:08

so we're gonna carry on doing that

1:07:11

until then take care

1:07:13

of yourself catch up on anything

1:07:16

you haven't missed anything you haven't missed anything

1:07:19

you have missed rather because sometimes

1:07:21

if you're skirting over and

1:07:23

you see a name and you go I don't really

1:07:26

know that person I'm not really keen

1:07:29

they're usually the best episodes

1:07:31

so go back hit me up on social

1:07:33

media

1:07:34

you know where we all are we're on the two-shot pod

1:07:37

on Instagram and Twitter Facebook

1:07:40

griff personal griff is there

1:07:43

I'm around on Instagram not as I want

1:07:45

on Twitter but we do try

1:07:47

and get back to everybody and respond and

1:07:50

if you want to drop us an email maybe you've

1:07:52

got an idea for a guest drop

1:07:54

us an email at to shop pod at

1:07:57

gmail.com obviously I can't promise

1:07:59

but it's

1:07:59

nice to hear your thoughts.

1:08:02

So we're gonna go off, record

1:08:05

a nice batch and

1:08:07

then we'll see you for the new season. That'd

1:08:09

be exciting. Okay until

1:08:12

then honestly thanks so much

1:08:14

for being here it really means the world. You take

1:08:16

care of yourself and we'll be back

1:08:19

very very soon. Take care.

1:08:26

The Two Shot podcast was presented by me Craig

1:08:28

Parkinson recorded and produced by Thomas

1:08:30

Griffin for Splicing Block. The remix

1:08:32

of our theme tune is by Stolen Volant.

1:08:35

Cheers.