0:00

Hello, I'm Craig

0:02

Parkinson and this is the Two

0:04

Shot Podcast. Pop the kettle on and

0:06

let's dive in.

0:10

MUSIC

0:26

How the

0:26

devil are you? Yes, it's

0:28

Thursday and we are back. This

0:31

is the Two Shot Podcast and I'm Craig Parkinson.

0:33

Now, I've got a question for you.

0:37

How do you go from

0:39

a working class town in

0:41

the northwest of England to directing

0:44

an Oscar winner's words on Broadway

0:47

via directing hit shows

0:50

in the West End? Well,

0:52

that's the question. I'm gonna find the

0:55

answer out in today's episode. more of that in

0:57

a sec. Back to last week,

1:00

I knew it. I knew

1:02

that Freeman Adjutant was going to be a big hit

1:05

with you. What did I tell you? You were right.

1:08

It was one of those episodes where

1:11

you, and you've said it yourself on social media

1:13

and messages that we've had, it felt like two old

1:15

friends

1:17

catching up and having a laugh.

1:19

And that is what it's all about. It was perfect. Now

1:23

speaking of friends,

1:25

today's episode is with the actor

1:27

and director Matthew Dunster.

1:30

I first met Matthew

1:33

about seven years ago. Now

1:35

he directed me in Martin

1:37

McDonough's play Hangman

1:39

in London alongside past

1:42

TSP favorite guest, Mr.

1:44

David Morrissey and Mr. Andy

1:46

Nyman. look

1:49

I'm very not familiar but while

1:51

I I mentioned the name of Andy

1:53

Neiman he's

1:55

He's coming back. That's right. Mandy

1:58

Neiman and Miss...

2:00

Jeremy Dyson are going to be joining us

2:02

in a few weeks. They have written a book which

2:04

I'm thoroughly enjoying at the moment. It comes

2:06

out on April the 13th. It's called The Warlock

2:09

Effect and we're going to sit down with

2:11

those two geniuses and

2:13

chat about

2:15

how you write a book together. So I'm really

2:17

looking forward to sitting down with Andy. We're

2:19

going to go back into his magical

2:22

cave in London. I know

2:24

Grefs are really looking forward to

2:26

it as am I and you will be

2:28

too. So today's episode,

2:30

yeah, I first met Matthew when he directed me all

2:32

those years ago. I've

2:35

wanted him on for ages.

2:39

He's quite unique in the way that he directs

2:44

and who he stands up for and

2:46

what he says. He's not backwards with coming forwards.

2:49

I've always loved that about him. So

2:52

let's get down to it. This

2:55

is the Two Shot Podcast, with the

2:57

brilliant Mr Matthew Dunstatt.

3:20

start

3:25

letting them in. Which

3:27

I think is probably better for the performance. Is

3:30

that quite an American way? Yeah. Yeah.

3:33

Because they started adopting that. So when I realised

3:36

that on Press Night there was

3:39

not going to be any money, I thought actually I'd quite like

3:41

to sit between me Ling and

3:44

my mate Dennis Kelly and watch the show because I knew

3:46

they'd be pissing themselves. And

3:49

does that take the pressure off you

3:51

as a director and also a cast?

3:55

I don't like it because it

3:57

makes me uncomfortable for like five previews.

4:00

instead of just one press night.

4:02

But I think it's better for the cast.

4:04

Yeah. But uh...

4:07

Because it is a lot of press. Martin insists,

4:10

or Martin shows he's like one press night because he

4:12

likes, you know, he's like, everyone can

4:14

be scared. Yeah, of course, all the time. You

4:16

do it better, you do it better. Okay,

4:20

we are turning over. See,

4:23

the thing is then we'd already started. I'd always thought

4:25

we'd already started recording. But

4:27

it's nice today

4:29

for two reasons. One,

4:31

we're in person doing this and

4:33

I've been doing so many flying solo

4:36

at home with a laptop.

4:38

And we get to see producer Griffiths is lovely, but

4:40

more importantly, it's you. I know we've been

4:42

talking about you coming on here for

4:45

quite some time. So I'm pleased that

4:47

we're

4:48

a little bit late in starting but it's good to see you.

4:51

Nice to see you. Are you well? I

4:53

am well, yeah, I'm good. I'm sort of, I'm

4:55

in that post-opening

4:57

show kind of, it's

5:00

energizing, because suddenly you don't have to go to work

5:03

every day and rehearse. And

5:05

because the show, Shirley Valentine,

5:07

opened last Wednesday. Mm.

5:10

I'm at that stage where I'm waking up in the morning

5:12

going, oh my God, I don't have to go anywhere.

5:15

And I can do things like this. But is that energizing

5:17

or do you feel a bit lost? Because I know you

5:19

do love to

5:21

work. I find

5:23

it, I do find it energising. And

5:25

I do love to work, but I think

5:28

I've learnt to try and make the most

5:30

of both

5:32

periods, the busy periods and the

5:35

sitting at home. I'm a bit, that's why

5:37

I've got a plastid on my thumb. I'm

5:40

a bit of a DIY freak. Oh yeah.

5:42

Any spare time, give me a sander.

5:46

I'm happy. Or the garden. I

5:48

think a lot of people, this whole lockdown

5:50

just changed our lives, didn't it? It changed my life.

5:53

You think it changed everybody's lives more than you, yeah.

5:56

I've always been quite handy and it does take

5:58

my mind off my mind.

6:00

So painting a wall

6:02

or digging a hole in the garden, they

6:04

are, it's

6:07

useful for me psychologically, I think. Yeah,

6:10

it's a far cry from being

6:13

a theatre director, jumping

6:15

into manual labour. Yeah,

6:17

and

6:19

it's balance, isn't it? I mean, you know, without boring,

6:22

the older you get, that's what we're pursuing,

6:24

isn't it? Balance, I think. I put

6:26

up a very large IKEA wardrobe last week,

6:29

I was quite proud of myself. You're not balanced.

6:32

Dunstir, a good film or a good book?

6:38

A good film,

6:39

I think. What's your ideal Friday

6:42

night? Would there be a flying solo to the pictures

6:44

or with the family on the settee?

6:46

With the family on the settee, I have to be honest.

6:49

Both those aren't as big

6:51

a part of my life as they should be. And

6:53

that's because

6:55

certainly film and telly,

6:57

Telling in particular, it can feel like a bit

6:59

of a busman's holiday. I mean,

7:01

if you've been with actors all day, and

7:04

also words, you know, I'm

7:06

reading, even if I'm rehearsing

7:09

one script, I'm probably trying to read two

7:11

or three on the way in, in

7:14

snatch moments after dinner. So,

7:17

the

7:18

drama in my life and the words

7:21

in my life sort of mean that I'm not... But

7:24

I would, you know, I end up watching stuff the kids want

7:27

to watch, and now they're getting old, you know, my ideal would

7:29

be me, me Ling and the

7:31

kids watching the Mandalorian with the take

7:33

away. Yeah.

7:35

I'll just recommend The Last of Us if you haven't watched,

7:38

started watching that with the family. Great. Start

7:41

watching it with my son over half term. It's very

7:43

good. It's very, very good. Saturday night

7:45

or Sunday morning. Interpret this

7:48

as you were, if it was you as a 25 year old or you

7:51

now and so whichever way. I'd

7:55

say Sunday morning, I mean like because

7:58

of my lifestyle. There's

8:01

not that big a difference between Tuesday night and Saturday

8:03

night. I'll have a drink when I want to have a drink, and

8:06

I'll

8:06

do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. But

8:09

Sunday morning is...

8:11

I'm quite an early riser, so I get up before

8:13

everybody else has got a bit of time on my own, and then

8:15

usually there's two football matches, because Sid, my

8:18

son, and Jen, one of my girls,

8:20

play Sunday league teams. Right. That

8:23

is a routine that I like very much. What

8:26

kind of father are you on the sideline

8:28

of pets? ridiculously aggressive.

8:34

It's like I have actually

8:36

said to the coach a couple of times that because you know

8:39

you get all these emails about

8:41

let the coach coach and not not direct

8:43

to me to all the parents you say and

8:45

I hope and so

8:48

I have actually checked in and said do

8:50

I say tell me if it's too much

8:52

on it but

8:54

what I've noticed about Sunday League is

8:56

that most coaches used to be

8:58

centre forwards and all their kids are

9:01

centre forwards. Right. Because there's something

9:03

about that glory role, I think, that

9:06

makes someone a keeper, keeps

9:08

some skin in the game. And I was a defender

9:10

and so I always stand where

9:13

the defence are and I sort of fancy

9:15

myself as a bit of an unofficial defence coach.

9:19

Matthew, the city or the country?

9:22

The country. And

9:26

I guess that goes back to, you know, being

9:28

brought up in a kind of urban environment.

9:32

On an estate in Oldham. Then I

9:35

went to university, or drama

9:37

school, I went to a place called

9:39

Bretton Hall, which is in Yorkshire

9:41

Sculpture Park. It's a beautiful spot.

9:44

Beautiful spot. And I just arrived there at

9:46

the age of 21 and just went, okay,

9:49

this is, I like this. It

9:52

took me a while to get used to it. Very

9:54

isolated at Brettonall, you tend to stay there. And

9:58

I guess ever since then I've always...

10:00

I think I would

10:02

move out of London to the country if I could convince

10:04

my wife But

10:06

now the kids are at an age where they're London

10:08

kids and they've got their own Relationships so

10:11

to pull them out of London would would feel

10:13

a

10:14

Bit cruel. I think

10:16

that's the thing in it with kids. You just always considering

10:18

what they need as well. Yeah so

10:22

But the country I'd love to my ambition

10:25

is that when I retire that when I open my back

10:27

door but I can't see anybody else's house.

10:30

I'd like to live somewhere like that. That is the dream,

10:32

isn't it? So I have the need to build a big fence or

10:35

move to the country. You're

10:37

the handyman going, get that fence

10:39

sorted.

10:41

Where you are now, at the

10:45

age you are now, and the

10:47

experience that you've had, would

10:49

you say you're less ambitious or more

10:51

ambitious? Less ambitious. Interesting.

10:55

And I don't know, I directed

10:59

a show in Tokyo a few years ago and

11:02

I worked with this brilliant actor

11:05

called Yoshii Odie. And he is, if

11:07

you look on any of Peter Brook's books

11:10

of acting, there's a Japanese actor

11:15

on the front cover, a lot of them. So he worked with Peter Brook for

11:17

years. He lives in Paris. He's like a god of acting.

11:19

And somehow they convinced him to come back to Tokyo

11:22

and do, I was doing Oedipus, he played a very small

11:24

part. And he took me out for lunch one

11:26

day, we got on really well.

11:28

And he's in his 80s, I would

11:30

have been what, 50 then 49. And

11:32

he said, if you could do anything, what

11:36

would it be? And I was sort of chilled

11:38

by the fact that I couldn't answer the question. Now

11:41

on the one hand, I think that means that

11:43

I'm quite fulfilled, but

11:45

I, I

11:47

don't know. It's weird as being a theater

11:49

director, because you, like anything else I

11:51

guess, that a signpost, and

11:54

maybe a signpost is running a building. I don't,

11:56

I have no desire to run a building. I

11:59

think another sign. Post

12:00

is often, and

12:01

part of this is because

12:03

of the financial rewards, directors move

12:05

into opera. I've got no desire to move

12:09

into opera. So without really

12:11

pushing, I've

12:12

sort

12:16

of found myself for the most part doing the work I

12:18

want to do and feeling that the rewards

12:21

are healthy. And working with the people

12:23

that you want to work with it seems. Yeah,

12:26

working with the people. And also making

12:28

work for audiences

12:31

that I'm interested in. And

12:33

that can be, you can get there by

12:36

mistake. Like I

12:38

did this play called 222.

12:41

And it was, I think it was the first play

12:43

to open in

12:45

the West End after COVID. And

12:48

I had this idea of approaching Lily

12:51

Allen to be in it. And what

12:53

that did was it sort of created

12:56

a particular audience, an

12:58

audience that was young enough to want to take the risk. We

13:00

can't remember that now, but we

13:02

were like, is anyone going to come? And actually, the people that

13:04

did come were young because they were less fearful.

13:07

But also, all Lily's fans came. And

13:10

what's been really exciting about that project,

13:13

part of it has been to do with how we've kept

13:15

recasting it, is our

13:17

audience are always 30-something and

13:21

a bit pissed, Which

13:23

is great, you know. And then

13:26

with Shirley Valentine, which I opened last week,

13:28

I would say our audiences are about 60-something,

13:32

predominantly female,

13:35

and a bit pissed. But so those

13:37

good night outs are underrated, I

13:40

think. And

13:44

yeah, and I also find myself,

13:47

again,

13:48

I think this is about age, and I realize that

13:51

the subsidised sector, like

13:54

the Royal Court or the National even,

13:56

and certainly like the bush. The

13:59

training ground.

14:00

It's great.

14:01

And that's good, because

14:05

it's all our money. It's state money. And maybe

14:08

I've had my fair share of that. I've had

14:10

some brilliant opportunities in those. But

14:12

I don't tend to get a call from those theaters anymore.

14:15

It's the

14:17

projects that people want me to lead on a

14:20

commercial. Do

14:23

you remember when that change was? Hangman.

14:25

Right. Hangman. because

14:28

it flew because of where it started. Look,

14:31

commercial producers and

14:33

their investors are gamblers.

14:36

That's literally what they are. They go, right, it's

14:38

a big chunk of money. Some people put 100 quid

14:40

in, some people put 100,000 in, and

14:43

they're gambling on a return, and they don't, and

14:45

they often don't get one. Yeah. And

14:47

I think all gamblers are superstitious.

14:50

And if you make money for someone, someone

14:52

else starts knocking on your door and says, can you come

14:54

and

14:55

try and pull that trick off for

14:57

us? And so

14:59

that was, in every way, Hangmen

15:01

sort of changed my life. It was the beginning of a

15:05

significant new

15:07

important relationship with Martin.

15:10

It was the first time I'd had anything on in

15:12

the West End and I didn't really know

15:15

what that world was till we got there.

15:18

For the listeners,

15:20

that's when I first met Craig. Craig

15:22

joined the cast of Hangmen when we

15:26

moved from the Royal Court to the

15:28

West End. I'm sure we'll come onto that in a minute.

15:35

Yeah, it was a real sort of watershed moment

15:38

for me. And I guess

15:41

because of what Hangmen was, that it was a quality

15:44

piece of work that had come from

15:46

the West End. It just meant that The next

15:48

thing I was asked to do in the West End was...

15:52

True West. So again, it was not...

15:54

I always felt like...

15:57

I still feel it's a place where I can do.

16:00

Good work with good people. And intimate,

16:02

quite intimate work. Yes, yes, yes And

16:07

likewise putting things together

16:10

for Broadway I

16:14

still think I can I still

16:16

think I can think like me I still think I can

16:18

do the work that I want to do and

16:22

Yes, so Hangman was that was a big changing

16:24

point in every respect I owe that show a lot.

16:27

You mentioned before about about you

16:30

not wanting

16:32

to run a building. Do

16:34

you think it takes, well actually I

16:36

would phrase that, what do you think it takes

16:38

to run a successful building? What do

16:40

you need in you? Because I mean- Well

16:43

I think there's some practical things. Yeah. I

16:45

think not having kids is often helpful.

16:48

When I look around, I think that is not, it's

16:50

not across the board, but

16:52

I think it's 24-7. I

16:55

was gonna say, yeah. You've got to be totally committed

16:57

to that. wearing a lot of hats, I should

16:59

imagine. Yes. And I guess, because I

17:01

was an associate for about three years

17:04

at the Young Vic in

17:07

a real golden period when

17:08

David Lamb was there. And then I

17:10

was just down the road. I was an associate

17:13

for two years in an amazing

17:15

period, but also ended

17:17

in a very complex way when Emma

17:20

Rice was. So

17:22

I've seen it at close hand. I've seen David

17:25

run a building, and I've seen Emma run a building. And

17:28

being the number two, as it were, is a brilliant situation,

17:30

because you're part of all the decision making, the

17:32

programming, curating,

17:36

but you don't have

17:38

to worry about the finances and the

17:40

toilet rolls and all that stuff. So nothing

17:44

about watching those two people run those

17:46

organisations rather brilliantly made me

17:48

think that I wanted to do it.

17:50

Do you think it would change if it was

17:54

a smaller building? No.

17:57

No, because the responsibilities are the same.

17:59

I think so.

18:00

Yeah, I think so, yeah. And also, they're

18:03

not paid enough. I think, you know, throughout,

18:06

I think people never have a sense of how badly theater

18:09

directors are paid. It's some weird historic

18:11

thing that

18:12

I've spent a lot of time trying to unpick. I think it's

18:15

to do with probably the

18:17

nature of the class that traditionally

18:20

directors came from.

18:23

They don't get paid anywhere near what, say, writers

18:27

get paid. The

18:29

structure of how they played is rubbish. So

18:32

there's...

18:35

Yeah, running a building is not

18:38

an attractive proposition to me in any way right

18:40

now.

18:41

Right now. You

18:43

mentioned them before about how we first

18:45

met, and I remember it

18:48

was the first week of our rehearsal and we

18:50

didn't know each other at all, really.

18:53

And I'm sure we were outside in South London when we

18:55

were rehearsing, And I said to you, because

18:57

we had mutual friends in common from

18:59

the North anyway. And I said to

19:01

you, so when,

19:03

when was the turning point? When did you stop

19:07

being an actor and become a theatre

19:09

director? And you turned to me in a

19:12

very slightly scary and blunt fashion

19:14

one.

19:15

I didn't stop acting. Do

19:18

you remember that? No, I don't remember that. I

19:20

do. But I still, you know,

19:23

I did a podcast for

19:26

Paul Hunter recently, who

19:29

runs Tole Benidia. He does a podcast

19:31

called

19:32

Regrets, I Have a Few, I think.

19:36

And he came onto that subject.

19:38

And the way he asked it, it was actually quite emotional

19:41

really in terms of, I didn't stop

19:43

acting. I just started

19:46

directing. You

19:48

know, I kind of know what I'm doing until the end of 2024.

19:52

Some projects into 2025, because

19:54

directors are just booked in a different way than

19:57

actors are booked. So very quickly.

20:02

There was no space.

20:04

About two years ago, Kwame

20:06

at the Young Vic, because

20:08

I'd directed and acted and written stuff

20:11

there, they had a kind of 50th birthday

20:14

special with performances.

20:16

And he asked me if I'd performed this monologue that

20:19

I did, about 10 sides, whatever. So

20:21

I've I've not been on stage since I think 2005.

20:26

Right. So

20:29

apart from reading in when actors have been sick or

20:31

whatever. So

20:35

to learn a monologue and go out there,

20:38

that was really scary. But once it'd been

20:41

asked, I thought, I have to do it. And it was a really good

20:43

reminder of what I ask actors to do. Yeah.

20:46

have perhaps started to take for granted.

21:15

family life growing

21:17

up there. Kind

21:19

of brilliant as well. Well, brilliant,

21:22

not just with family life, but with, I

21:25

guess what I describe as community

21:27

life, really. Like, I feel very...

21:31

Well, I've written about this. I

21:33

wrote a play that our very good friend, Will

21:36

Ashford, called Out Can See the Hills, which was a

21:38

very romantic, I

21:40

think,

21:43

version of events. So although it was full of the

21:46

violence that was around and the sex

21:48

that was around,

21:51

so what am I saying? I had

21:54

a fantastic time, but I think as

21:56

we've all started to,

21:58

and I was totally loved. me and my brother,

22:00

it was a fantastic family unit, just

22:02

full of love and support. And as I

22:05

started to want to do weird things like

22:07

plays, as opposed to the things that were more

22:10

commonly around me, I got nothing but

22:12

love and support and interest from

22:14

my parents, actually, although, and

22:17

they found the theater through me.

22:19

Right, okay, yeah. But

22:23

I think post Me

22:26

Too and post,

22:28

I hate to call it post George Floyd

22:31

because it makes it feel like suddenly there was a problem

22:33

that hadn't been there before but I hope

22:35

people know what I mean as a cultural moment. Yeah.

22:39

I've started to look back at it all slightly

22:41

differently Craig and just go, and

22:43

this sounds extreme but I was

22:45

brought up not necessarily at home but by the immediate

22:48

environment. I'm sure this is probably the same for you as

22:50

a sexist and a racist

22:52

and a homophobe. It was just,

22:55

that's what it was like growing up in the 70s. And

22:58

maybe, I

23:00

think I'd like to revisit some of the material

23:04

that's in my bones and just look

23:06

at it from a slightly less romantic,

23:08

more critical point

23:10

of view.

23:14

Yeah, so it's complicated,

23:16

it's complicated. If it

23:18

wasn't your parents introducing

23:21

you to culture and

23:23

theatre. How did

23:26

you discover it? And when

23:28

were you quite a young child or were

23:30

you in your teens at this point?

23:32

Well it depends what culture is. I remember

23:34

I used to have in the early 70s,

23:36

I used to have a burgundy

23:39

cord suit with a zip with a

23:41

big circle there and a t-shirt

23:43

that said Mike Deadshot with

23:45

a bullet hole in it and And I thought I was Elvis

23:47

Presley. And

23:51

so as always, I got a real sense

23:53

of me performing. And I created this character

23:55

called Mike Deadshot. I

23:58

used to climb up the stairs.

24:00

and over the landing and like, you

24:02

know, like, and it was on my own.

24:05

I was sort of, I was a fantasist, I guess. I

24:07

guess that's the- Yeah, a lot of us were. Yeah, so

24:10

I,

24:11

and I guess that's why from a very early

24:13

age, I sort of pursued

24:17

things like,

24:20

women and adventure, you know, as

24:22

a kid, I was very early starting lots of things

24:24

and pursued, you know, drugs,

24:28

I wanted to have adventures.

24:31

And I guess the great thing about drama

24:33

is for me was something came along

24:36

that allowed me to escape

24:39

and was safe, which

24:41

is brilliant. I read something by

24:43

Peter Stein that I talk about a lot that they

24:46

said that humans stop playing

24:48

about the same time that they start having sex, which

24:51

makes total sense to me. Suddenly you're investing

24:53

into something else that's great. and

24:55

all the rest of it. And what I think where

24:58

we're really lucky is we get to keep

25:00

doing both. We didn't have to stop playing.

25:03

So... But at that age when you first

25:06

discover sets, you also discover out, you can be

25:08

so self-conscious, therefore the

25:10

playing aspect just takes that back.

25:12

I think so, yeah, it's not cool, is it? No.

25:15

I remember, you know, again,

25:17

speaking about culture, I was

25:20

quite a good tenor horn player in

25:22

a brass band. I was in a traditional

25:24

brass band, and I think by the age of 12, I

25:27

was the solo harm player in an adult band.

25:29

I was like

25:30

Hugh McGregor or something, he came brassed

25:33

off, it was one of them.

25:36

And as soon as I went to secondary school and I used to

25:38

carry this big case into it, I just thought, I'm

25:40

gonna get fucking killed here. So

25:42

that went, so there were a lot of things that

25:44

were just, I went into it, like most of us, I guess, the

25:47

primary school environment is one thing. And as

25:49

soon as I got to this secondary school, I just thought,

25:51

okay. So, but weirdly,

25:55

weirdly drama at the school at a

25:57

status where it was cool. Anyway, to answer your question.

26:00

I had an English teacher who

26:03

she went off ill and the

26:05

head of English came in and he's kind

26:07

of a

26:08

folk hero, this guy really, it's Colin Snell.

26:13

People like

26:14

Will Ash, Jeff Hardley,

26:17

Paul Hill and me, we

26:22

all

26:23

came into contact with this brilliant

26:25

English teacher who encouraged

26:28

us to perform and I think he was

26:30

always clever about the entry thing I mean he spoke to

26:32

me about Kez that was the first thing I ever did and

26:35

he gave me a copy of the script and

26:37

there's a character in Kez a bully called McDowell

26:39

and I was like if I can play that bully I'll do it

26:42

and I can still remember the lines yeah there's

26:44

so you know the sewing because I probably

26:46

only had about ten lines and I just it

26:49

was a massive moment for me I I can remember

26:52

being on stage and

26:53

thinking,

26:55

I'm good at this. I remember having that thought,

26:58

looking around at people who didn't know, who weren't,

27:00

who were just rigid and just thinking,

27:02

okay, this is really, you felt comfortable.

27:04

Felt totally comfortable. Natural. Yeah.

27:07

And just the fact that Paul Hilton

27:09

was in this, was a year below me, and

27:13

Jeff as well to some extent, he

27:15

wasn't

27:16

quite as into it as me and Paul were. I was

27:18

just obsessed immediately, but with

27:20

Paul I had someone who could

27:22

push me and match me all the way through school. So,

27:25

you know, we did West

27:27

Side Story together and I was Riff

27:30

and he was Tony, and then we did a play

27:32

called, a Lyle Kessler

27:34

play called Orphans, and we took it to the National Student

27:36

Drama Festival and it was

27:38

a big mix, it was big meat stuff. Yeah,

27:41

very much. I had a guy opposite me

27:43

who could do it, and really do it,

27:45

you know. So I think

27:47

that

27:48

allowed us to

27:50

push to some quite

27:52

significant heights as performers

27:54

really, at a young age. And even though

27:56

there was so obviously so much passion that you said

27:58

you have naturally felt.

28:01

and you obviously talked to it like a duck to water,

28:04

did you feel, oh

28:05

well this could be a viable career for

28:07

me? I don't know, I don't

28:10

know. I earned a bit of money doing, I

28:13

used to do photo shoots for like Jackie and

28:15

stuff like that. Did you hear? For

28:18

those listening, for those younger listeners, Jackie

28:21

was a very popular. And Blue Jeans, Blue Jeans. But

28:23

both very popular young

28:26

girls magazines. There was some sort of agency

28:28

and I don't know how I got involved with it, but then

28:30

you just rock up and they'd ask you to take two sets

28:32

of clothes. And

28:34

HIV was very prevalent at the time, and

28:36

I can remember being in them, and at

28:39

one point, suddenly you weren't allowed to kiss. The

28:41

final picture of the picture story,

28:44

it was always the boy and girl snogging.

28:47

And suddenly that stopped. So I can

28:49

remember the sort of cultural impact of people

28:52

sort of going, you're

28:53

just not allowed to touch each other anymore,

28:55

it's too dangerous, you know. And

28:57

that being played out in these, I've still got some

28:59

of them somewhere. It

29:03

framed in the downstairs toilet. So,

29:06

no,

29:07

I mean, I messed

29:10

up my levels, but I got enough to stay on to do my

29:12

air levels, which was great, because I just wanted to carry on doing

29:14

the plays at school. And

29:17

then at 18, I got a job at Northwest

29:19

Water for three years.

29:22

But

29:24

just before I left school, that's

29:26

when we went to the National Student Drama Festival and me

29:28

and Paul Hilton won

29:30

the Best Actor Awards and that was up against

29:34

Rada and Lester Polly and you

29:36

know, we were a comp. So

29:40

some of the judges

29:42

or guest tutors were people

29:44

like Ian Ricks and Polly Teal.

29:47

So between the ages of 18 to 21

29:50

I came to London and did three pretty

29:53

good jobs. One at the national, one at pains player,

29:55

one at what is now so healthy but

29:58

was Soho Polly. as

30:02

well who used to give me like unpaid leave to go and do

30:04

him. Wow. And after about three

30:06

years of this, he went, you've got to make your mind up, you've got

30:08

to.

30:09

And

30:11

and I think I tried. I applied for lots of drama

30:13

schools during that course and didn't get in. And

30:16

then at that point, I applied for

30:18

Bretton Hall at the age of 21 and

30:21

got in. So, yes, I

30:23

guess.

30:26

Yes, it did feel like a viable career or I

30:28

think from pretty early on starting

30:31

it, I knew it was what I wanted to do. Do you think

30:33

that boss at the water company was doing

30:35

you a favour? Yes, I can't remember his

30:37

name. Peter Brenner, I think he was called.

30:40

And he had been a frustrated

30:42

musician, I think. Had he? That's interesting.

30:45

So I think he was like... I

30:48

think all the stuff about giving

30:50

me time off and then saying, you know, you've got to make your mind

30:52

up was... I guess he'd

30:54

done... I'd done three years at the waterboard, he'd

30:57

done maybe 15 years

30:59

at the water build. So he did me a lot of favours actually.

31:02

And sometimes we all need a bit of a push, don't we? Absolutely.

31:05

And I've been very lucky, you know, it's really weird. I mean, you

31:08

know, anyone who knows me

31:10

or follows me on Twitter, I'm

31:12

just constantly banging on about how

31:16

class doesn't come into it enough in terms

31:19

of when we think a group

31:21

is marginalised and doesn't get enough opportunities

31:24

based on that marginalisation. Weirdly,

31:28

the reason I bang that drum is because I've

31:30

had so many opportunities. That's not maybe been my

31:32

story. I've been very lucky. I feel

31:34

like almost at every stage, someone's

31:38

handed me a significant opportunity.

31:41

But that makes me want lots of people

31:43

to have it or more people from our

31:46

kind of background to have that. Because

31:48

it is there. Yeah, yeah,

31:51

yeah. But it's funny you should mention

31:54

about social media,

31:55

Matthew, because there

31:59

was something that you... posting I believe today

32:02

on the day of recording and it goes like this so

32:05

much classism in theatre criticism

32:08

again and again twittering

32:10

from their prosecco chamber in either

32:12

a patronizing or disdainful manner

32:15

the working class is something they target

32:18

with the same vicious relish that

32:20

their papers and the Tories

32:22

do

32:23

this response to some some

32:26

reviews well yeah But not necessarily

32:28

my do you know what it is

32:30

the thing is is that?

32:32

Shirley Valentine

32:34

has just had 16 five star reviews,

32:36

right? It's probably the biggest hit I've ever

32:39

had It's took a four million

32:41

pound advance. Yeah, and weirdly I

32:43

think these are the times when you have to speak out because

32:45

you feel safe Like if I'd

32:47

got a load of two star reviews and everyone had said

32:49

my play was shit and I didn't know what I was doing That

32:52

just feels like sour grapes Was

32:54

actually I think that's the time to say say,

32:58

thank you very much, those reviews are great, but the

33:01

tone of some of them and the tone of

33:03

many of the reviews that I read about a particular

33:05

kind of

33:06

play by a particular kind of playwright

33:08

performed by a particular kind of actor

33:11

are patronizing. And

33:14

yeah, there

33:19

was one

33:21

podcast review that someone

33:23

said, you should listen to this. And there were two

33:26

posh, entitled

33:29

people from the arts world.

33:32

And it was the way they talked about the

33:34

actor and the way they talked about

33:37

the play.

33:38

Doing the voices, doing

33:41

a cod sort of scarce. I just thought, this

33:44

is so unsavory and it's a form

33:46

of kind of, it's classism, it's a form of bullying

33:48

and I hate it. And

33:50

I hate it. And I think

33:53

it's good to remember when it's going

33:55

well that that's a time when you've actually

33:58

you can speak more confidently.

34:00

it should be, well it is the time to

34:02

speak out at that point. But

34:06

do you know of any

34:08

reviewers and I say that's across

34:11

the board really, or certainly theatre reviewers

34:14

who are from a working class background? I

34:17

don't know, I don't. And also

34:19

I think, you know, one of the things that I guess

34:21

we're fighting all the time, and I don't mean this about

34:24

denying yourself any kind of cultural mobility

34:27

is there's a director

34:30

called Matthew Zia who's very interesting

34:33

young guy and he

34:36

is from a benefits

34:38

class background and

34:41

he said it

34:45

took him 10 years to stop assimilating.

34:47

He said he even started wearing a cravat.

34:50

Wow. And suits to

34:52

work, you know, when he was the associate

34:54

director for Sarah

34:57

Frankema, the role is change. There's

35:01

so much pressure to

35:04

almost, I guess, market

35:06

yourself in some way as a, in quotes, theatre

35:09

director, that you can, it's

35:12

a very easy place to lose sight of who

35:14

you are and where you're from. And he's absolutely

35:16

reclaimed who he is and where he's from. He

35:18

now runs the actor's

35:20

tour in theatre and

35:23

runs it brilliantly and progressively. But

35:26

that's never happened to you. You don't seem, I mean,

35:29

we've known it for all your life, but

35:33

I've certainly known it for a fair few years. And

35:35

you always seem to be who you

35:37

are. You don't seem to be changed

35:40

or bullied in any way. No,

35:43

I have been bullied, but I also

35:45

think, I mean, you met, I was, you

35:48

know, I've been at it quite a while and was confident

35:50

when I met you. But I absolutely

35:53

accepted invitations to parties

35:55

or events that I was at.

36:00

uncomfortable at for the whole time I

36:02

was there.

36:05

And I guess it comes with confidence and experience.

36:07

You go, oh, I don't have to go to those parties.

36:10

I don't have to go to those parties. And

36:12

they, I don't need to make friends with them. Do you

36:15

know what I mean? I've got enough friends. But

36:17

I'd be lying if I said I'd always just been able

36:19

to hold on

36:20

securely to who I

36:23

am and where I'm from. I absolutely went through a period

36:25

of

36:27

feeling I had to make a set

36:29

of choices or similar. I mean, you know, he

36:31

asked me if I knew any working class...

36:36

Reviewers. Reviewers. Who were the working

36:38

class? Theater directors. You know, Dennis

36:40

Kelly said to me once, you're a unicorn.

36:44

Do you know that? And I

36:46

don't really, you know, they

36:49

are coming through. But

36:51

the tradition, and it was a tradition,

36:54

of theater directors doing

36:56

English at Cambridge, it was that specific and

36:58

then entering into a subsidised building

37:00

in the literary department and then becoming an associate

37:03

director and then becoming an artistic director

37:06

is still knocking about and

37:09

certainly when I started was

37:12

very much

37:13

within the fabric of all the institutions

37:16

that I was working in. But

37:19

as I said, weirdly, I was always given

37:21

opportunities is often by some of these people,

37:24

but again, you have to sort of go,

37:28

you might have just given me a great big bone, but

37:30

you're still treating me like a dog. You know what

37:32

I mean?

37:33

So it's,

37:36

yeah, I learned the hard way at some parties.

37:40

I think we, yeah, we all do. I

37:44

remember when I, you know, not being yourself,

37:46

and I've said this before, many,

37:49

many, many years ago, I became more

37:51

northern

37:52

to try and stand out. Yeah,

37:54

yeah. To be a little bit

37:56

more northern, a little bit more bolshe. Yeah,

37:59

yeah.

38:00

I understand that. I understand that. And it's

38:02

a combination of self-protection,

38:05

but also a kind of projection. It's

38:07

like, you know, making the world

38:09

meet you on your terms. Oh yeah, it was an absolute choice.

38:11

I knew why I was doing it, but also through fear. Yeah,

38:14

yeah, yeah. I totally get

38:16

that. I totally get that.

38:18

You spoke about opportunities before, about people giving

38:21

you opportunities. So how

38:23

did the leap from acting

38:26

to writing to

38:30

the theatre directing go? Was it via

38:32

the writing? Because it's all

38:35

about, I know a lot of actors that say, yeah,

38:37

I'd love to direct a short

38:39

film, inevitably they do, and then make it

38:42

for £2.50 out of their own pocket or they get a nice

38:44

budget together. Very rarely do I

38:46

know of many actors that

38:48

have had quite a nice career and then

38:50

jump into theatre directing. Well,

38:54

it goes back to this teacher, Colin

38:57

Snow. Tom Snow, yeah. And when I didn't

38:59

get into drama schools when I was 18, I

39:02

think I was really low, and he said, why don't you

39:04

write yourself something? So I wrote this monologue

39:07

called Dear Applicants, Stroke, Auditioning, because

39:10

all the letters to drama school, all

39:12

the refusals, or whatever they call them, start

39:15

with Dear Applicants, Stroke, Auditioning, you

39:17

are not good enough, you're not coming in. So

39:20

I wrote this weird

39:20

monologue about this kiru. I

39:23

can remember it started with She Bangs the

39:25

Drum by the Stonewall Roses and it was about him breaking

39:28

into this deer at night.

39:31

And that's all I can remember about it really. So

39:34

by the time I went to Bretton Hall, and

39:36

Bretton Hall is not a traditional drama school in

39:39

that respect, the things that they wanted

39:42

us to do, which was write and direct

39:44

and in your third year, you mainly

39:47

assessed as an actor, but you had to write a monologue and you had

39:49

to direct a show with

39:51

first years in it. So I

39:53

guess I kind of left Bretton all ready to do all three.

39:55

Right. And my first gig was

39:58

as a writer, I played that.

40:00

I'd written while I was

40:02

at Bretton Hall, that Uni was put on

40:04

a contact, literally the month that I

40:06

left. So I left as a writer, really.

40:09

Play call you used to. And then

40:12

they commissioned me to write another play which was on the following

40:14

year called Tell Me. And

40:17

at the same time, I got a job,

40:21

just like the most golden job someone like us

40:23

could get. I mean, I left Uni

40:25

and my first proper meaty acting

40:27

role a year later was in Road,

40:30

directed by Jim Carwright himself. Oh

40:32

my God. The role exchange.

40:35

So that theater, which meant, you know, so much

40:37

to anyone from the North Western, blah, blah. So

40:40

I just thought I was bulletproof. I thought, I

40:42

am a playwright, I am an actor. I

40:45

guess the directing comes,

40:49

it was always a very good way of being able to support

40:51

other artists, be they writers

40:53

or be they actors. And I was part of a community

40:55

here.

40:57

And

40:59

I used to teach various

41:02

workshops and stuff. And I remember a

41:04

writer called Gary Bleasdale,

41:06

who was Alan Bleasdale's nephew. He wrote this

41:09

play. And I said, if you finish

41:11

it, I'll try and get it on.

41:12

And I got it on. Where

41:15

did you get it on? The Broccoli Jack of Hope Theatre.

41:18

And

41:20

at the same time, I was in a shut weirdly,

41:22

I was in the Dorchan

41:24

Law, directed by David Lahn at the Young Vic, and

41:27

the two brothers, the two leads in it, were

41:29

me and Paul Hilton. No way! So

41:32

we came back together as it were. Had

41:35

you been in touch since then, or? Not really, we saw. Not

41:37

really, at all. I think we saw, I think he wouldn't mind saying this,

41:39

but we sort of got a bit estranged in the way we both

41:42

left. And so

41:44

we went out for a drink after the first day we all

41:46

sort of really made up. And it was me,

41:49

him, and Amri Doth.

41:50

So it was great casting. Wow. And

41:52

at the end of the

41:54

play, the end of the run, David

41:56

said to me, what are you doing next? I'd rather sheepishly.

42:00

directing the show at the Broccoli Jack. And

42:02

he went, I'll come and see it. And I thought, they

42:05

always say that, don't they? Yeah, they course they do. Anyway,

42:07

I'm sat in the audience a couple of weeks later and he's there.

42:10

And then the day after, he offered me a show at

42:13

the Young Vic. I did Some

42:16

Voices by Joe Penn Hall

42:18

with Tom Brooke, Tom Brooke's first job.

42:20

Wow. And

42:22

then the

42:24

day after that, I think, or not

42:27

long after that, he asked me to be an associate.

42:29

So it just happened at the speed of light. And again,

42:31

just through circumstance

42:35

and being offered significant

42:38

opportunity about somebody. I mean, it really doesn't

42:40

happen that quick, does it? No, no, it was, it was... I

42:44

guess what I already had, like

42:47

people say to me, who

42:49

did you enjoy assisting the most? I said, I've never

42:51

assisted anyone in my life. But as

42:53

an actor, I'd worked with Dominic Cook,

42:56

Matt Stafford-Clarke, Ian Rickson,

42:59

Katie Mitchell, Richard

43:02

Wilson, who's the best director I've

43:04

worked with, as director of actors.

43:07

They were all great in different ways, but I learned a lot

43:09

from him about

43:11

actors.

43:13

So as well as having that

43:16

kind of wealth of experience

43:18

and that bank of knowledge from those

43:20

brilliant directors, I

43:23

guess I also had contacts and

43:25

relationships because all the places

43:27

I wanted to work, I'd worked. So

43:30

I think it was probably just a lot easier

43:33

for me than the majority of

43:35

people. And did you learn from the directors

43:39

who you

43:40

thought were less good than those? Well,

43:45

that's the answer about the question about

43:47

why I started directing, because I think some

43:49

of the productions

43:51

of my plays,

43:53

my plays, I just thought, I want

43:56

to

43:57

do those in a different way.

44:00

And the only way that I can do

44:02

those is if I direct them.

44:04

Right. So, that

44:06

was,

44:07

I guess, another part of the journey towards

44:09

becoming a director. And

44:11

were you still based in the north at this point? No,

44:15

I left

44:17

Bretton Hall in 94 and I moved to London in 95

44:19

and I've been here ever since. But you know, it's sod's

44:21

lot. I moved to London in 95 and never worked

44:24

here. I was like, I spent five years working in Manchester

44:26

and Newcastle. No, but it always happens. obviously

44:29

because of the way we speak on the telly I did was

44:31

I was in Corrie for a year.

44:34

I remember that yeah I was in Corrie for

44:36

a year. How did you find that because again that is

44:38

a completely different way of working

44:42

page count wise. I didn't

44:44

enjoy it I have to say I am

44:47

that I stayed at my mom and dad's at

44:49

the beginning and the route that I used to drive

44:51

to Coronation Street was the same route that I used to

44:53

drive to Northwest Water and I just I just

44:55

feel like I'm going to North West Water.

44:57

And you get there and every act, I'm

45:00

not saying it's the same now, it wasn't, it was the particular

45:02

environment when I was there. And

45:05

I'd see all the actors coming in and the first question

45:07

they'd ask is what time do I finish?

45:09

And I was like,

45:11

get me out of here. And

45:15

so I... Yeah,

45:19

it wasn't the happiest

45:21

experience, but I paid off

45:23

debts and

45:24

or the rest of it, did a year. They

45:26

couldn't believe it when I said I didn't want to stay. I

45:29

said, I'm done, do you know what I mean? I'm done. And

45:32

also you sort of get a sense of who's right

45:34

for that environment and some people absolutely

45:38

are. I mean, I started on, I think,

45:40

exactly the same day as Saran Jones. And

45:43

I remember watching him going, oh my God,

45:45

you are gold dust. You are exactly, it was dying

45:47

on its ass at the time. I just thought, you are exactly

45:49

what this show needs. And me sitting

45:52

there pretending to be Liam Gallagher,

45:54

not necessarily what I needed.

45:57

Do you know what I mean? and she just

45:59

lit.

46:00

the whole place up, you know. But it is

46:02

so important at the start

46:04

of your career to rule out what

46:06

isn't for you. Yeah.

46:08

And to have the bravery to go, well,

46:12

I could stay here and there's a lovely sense of security

46:14

financially, but

46:16

if it's not for you, you should get out, shouldn't you? Yeah,

46:18

and I had a taste of a lot of other things around

46:22

the same time, you know, I was

46:24

doing all the theatre work everybody wanted to do, you know,

46:27

I was working at the

46:29

Royal Court and the National, you know, I

46:31

was doing the jobs that

46:33

young actors want to do. So I

46:35

was, you know, hungry to get back

46:37

to that. What do you think the transferable

46:40

skills are?

46:42

And obviously you can only speak from personal experience,

46:45

from being an actor to

46:48

being a director. Well,

46:52

I think they're all transferable. I mean, another way of answering

46:54

the question is I just wish more actors

46:57

did it. I do think there's a kind of cultural

47:00

stranglehold that, as I said, a

47:02

certain kind of intellectual still has upon that

47:05

role of a director. I still

47:07

think we equate it more to the literary

47:09

tradition than to the acting tradition. So,

47:12

you know, you

47:17

can attest as much as anyone

47:19

else whether I'm bullshitting myself

47:22

here, but what I feel

47:24

most actors have said to me at the end of

47:27

a process is, you

47:30

knew how to help.

47:31

And I think I know how to help because I've done it.

47:34

And I think... And also you listen.

47:36

Right. Which is obviously... Which

47:39

is a big part. It's the big part, yeah. You

47:42

know, and it's like what you do here, and I'm

47:44

in therapy at the moment, and

47:47

I feel like what you do here, what

47:49

I do as a director, what I experience

47:51

from my therapist, it's all kind of the same

47:53

thing. It's like asking

47:56

questions that allow

47:59

people to to

48:01

access something internal

48:04

and

48:05

having been asked brilliant questions by brilliant

48:08

directors that allowed

48:10

me to have that access I hope

48:12

I've got

48:14

some of those skills.

48:18

I'll get back to you on that. No you do.

48:20

Matthew Dunst so this has been really lovely. I

48:23

don't want to finish yet because I want to talk about theatre

48:25

directing

48:27

because at the moment you're directing

48:29

a one-woman show, or you have

48:31

been, do

48:33

you approach that differently to

48:37

an ensemble or a four-hander?

48:41

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know that,

48:43

you know, it's one of the things I like to do in rehearsal

48:45

is circuit trains. Yeah. Beginning

48:47

of every day, everybody comes in on trains. It

48:51

is a brilliant way to start. I think

48:53

so and I think you know it feels quite unusual in this

48:56

country

48:57

I do think you know I

48:59

do

49:00

Think there are traditions around the world that we could

49:02

learn so much more from it's not

49:04

unusual in a in a

49:07

big state Theatre

49:09

in Germany or Russia for

49:11

them to train. I mean they live and

49:13

work together essentially and I

49:16

think it's a great way to start the day I didn't do that

49:18

with Sheridan because I just thought it'd just be weird

49:21

me and sit up. And

49:28

so the more on the

49:30

bigger the ensemble, I guess the more ensemble

49:32

the work is, you know, so you're often building

49:35

a kind of chorus feel or trying to

49:37

figure out the vocabulary, you know, how do we

49:39

create a marketplace or how

49:43

do we create the sense of there

49:45

being a thousand troops. groups. And

49:48

having directed Will in,

49:50

I always talk about when Will did that monologue of mine,

49:53

you can see the hills.

49:56

The interesting thing was he was training for a marathon,

49:58

You don't always lie. It was shining for... marathon at

50:00

the same time and I remember thinking it's the same

50:02

thing for him. You

50:05

know, it is a marathon, I mean

50:07

a show like that or Shirley Valentine.

50:09

So I only rehearsed with Sheridan

50:12

maybe two hours a day because the

50:14

job was to go on and learn it. And

50:16

I knew mainly because of the sort

50:18

of actor that she is, she's, you

50:21

know, she's, there's a lot of dancing in her and

50:23

there's a lot of, of she

50:26

likes technique. So I knew that

50:28

if she knew that she puts the glass down

50:30

on that line and picks the pencil

50:32

up on that line, that it would go in. Yeah. That

50:35

the physical stuff would

50:37

help her. So we would just do a little bit of that each

50:39

morning and then I'd say, all right, go on and learn that section.

50:42

So it was very chill and very- And then you'd go back the next

50:44

day. We'd have a look at what we'd done. Yeah.

50:47

And then we'd add a bit more. Right. You know, and she'd

50:49

get a sense of how well she had or hadn't learned the

50:52

lines. I mean, it's interesting to us the

50:54

question about Sheridan because she's

50:58

in some ways a bad example because

51:00

she's just brilliant. So she

51:02

learns it like that. The blocking

51:05

just goes into her body like that and she makes

51:07

it feel totally natural

51:09

and so.

51:11

And what's the length? What's

51:13

the running time of this? I think

51:16

the first half is about an hour and five and

51:18

the second half is about 35. So

51:20

it's a lot to learn. Yeah. I

51:24

remember when the play that I mentioned going

51:27

right back, one of the reasons I do

51:29

circuits, and it's probably a terrible admission,

51:31

is when you become a director, you do sort

51:34

of feel like you're not in a gang anymore. And I like

51:36

being in the gang. Yeah. And

51:39

that's why I get involved with all the

51:41

circuits to some extent. But I remember when I was first

51:43

directing that play I mentioned earlier

51:45

on by Gary Blee's Dale

51:48

at the broccoli jacket, it was a two-hander.

51:50

And when you're in a show with someone, or

51:53

even when you're in a company, you kind of want

51:55

everyone to fall in love with you. And I only mean

51:57

that as a kind of, you know that they... the

52:00

alchemy of playing opposite

52:02

someone or being a gang of lads around a table,

52:04

whatever the scene is, the alchemy of

52:06

that, of being a gang and falling in love is

52:08

brilliant, isn't it? I mean, that's what I miss.

52:10

It's brilliant. It's brilliant. You

52:13

know, it's that brilliant story about Tarantino

52:16

when they were rehearsing.

52:19

They had Pulp Fiction and they were just sat around a

52:21

table in someone's ass and John Travolt was there

52:23

and all the stars of the film were there, they're all

52:25

reading and John Travolt just goes, This is fucking

52:28

crazy. And it is, you

52:30

know what I mean? It is for John Travolta. It is for

52:33

anyone. But what I remembered

52:35

about that show really early on was I thought, oh,

52:37

my job's different. I've got to make them fall in love with

52:39

each other. I've got to keep out of the way.

52:42

And that was a big thing

52:44

to sort of hand over. Just like, okay,

52:47

I'm kind of in the gang, but my responsibility

52:50

really is for the rest of the gang.

52:54

There was, and I don't get

52:56

involved with social media

52:59

arguments because you might as well just scream into a pillow,

53:01

but there was a little bit of kickback

53:05

when Cheryl was cast, but

53:08

a bit of background, she was a pop star.

53:10

Yes. And now she's come into it. Am

53:13

I right in her first acting role? As

53:15

far as I know, yeah. As far as I know. I think

53:18

she did a tiny little walk on in the film maybe, but she's

53:20

not done anything of this scale now.

53:22

Without

53:23

a rigorous and maybe she did have a

53:25

rigorous audition process how do you know

53:27

if someone has

53:30

got it? You don't. You

53:32

must know though because

53:34

you've cast Lily Allen and I remember talking to you on

53:36

the phone and I

53:39

hope you don't mind me saying this you told me that

53:41

you've never seen anyone with such

53:43

a work ethic that she was in before

53:45

rehearsal starting she was the last one to leave. Absolutely.

53:49

She knew in a second. You don't know that either

53:52

until you start working with someone.

53:54

No, I mean I spoke to Lily, I

53:56

mean she wouldn't mind me sign this. I spoke to Lily

53:58

about it.

54:01

Once I'd had the idea. And

54:04

I'd had the idea about Lily as an actress a few

54:07

years ago. I think I was

54:09

talking to a brother about something and

54:11

I just thought, I bet Lily can act. And

54:13

I spent a bit of time watching her videos,

54:16

which are so performative obviously. And then I was thinking,

54:18

yeah, she... Same with Nadine, it was watching

54:20

the video with you and I thought, she can act. But

54:24

it was when I phoned Lily and she said,

54:27

She said, look, I've been sober for

54:29

two years and I've just been waiting for,

54:31

they promise you that if you sort of give yourself

54:33

over to a higher power that something will fall out of the sky

54:35

and I think this is it. So when someone says that

54:37

to you, I just thought you can do it. Because there was a commitment

54:40

in that. There was a belief in that. But

54:42

she rehearsed, Lily rehearsed as if she

54:44

couldn't do it. Lily rehearsed as if it was the scariest

54:47

thing ever and the only thing that was

54:49

going to happen was that she was going to fail. She

54:51

was full of fear, but

54:54

came at seven and was the last one to leave,

54:57

and just worked and worked and worked and

54:59

worked because she thought it was such a hard job. Cheryl,

55:03

when I spoke to Cheryl, and I guess from then

55:05

I just learnt to ask the question, do you

55:08

think you can do it?

55:09

And if they would have said yes, or yes, but

55:11

I'm terrified, or yes, yes I do, I think

55:14

I can, I thought, right, that's all I need to hear.

55:16

I will get you there. Because then I've got you there. Yeah, I'll

55:18

get you there, you know, because we'll work together. Cheryl

55:21

rehearsed it as if, this is the easiest thing in

55:23

the world, I've got this everybody, no one needs to worry.

55:26

So confident. Wow. So confident.

55:29

So as soon as we started, I thought I'll get her in a day

55:31

early and I just read it with her and my assistant

55:34

director. She had a running ranch,

55:37

did all the blocking on her own and I

55:39

said stop because I want you to do this with the other actor, I

55:41

want you to find this with your actors, but she was so keen to

55:43

sort of know what was in this cupboard and blah,

55:45

blah, blah, you know, but she was

55:48

so confident. So I guess

55:51

asking people who've not done it before

55:53

just makes them,

55:55

the circumstances the same but of course because

55:57

they're different people it's also radically

55:59

different. Yeah,

56:00

yeah, yeah, of course. But there was loads

56:02

of kickback when Cheryl was cast. And

56:04

you know what was really interesting was some dickheads

56:06

put,

56:07

you know, I saw the original with Lily Allen

56:10

when the cast was full of proper actors. I

56:12

thought, I can go back to tweets, the

56:15

tweets that I read when we cast Lily.

56:18

And again, you know, a bit like that one you read out. When

56:21

all the reviews came out for Lily, for

56:24

Cheryl, I think, at two

56:26

in the morning,

56:27

tweeted she's fucking brilliant you snobby

56:30

cunts yeah you did

56:32

do that and

56:35

again that's I think a lot of that is about

56:38

class I think a lot of that is about how

56:40

come this Jordy girl from

56:42

this estate in Newcastle

56:44

who was on you know do you

56:47

not think it's from well

56:50

there's a lot of

56:51

trained actresses that could

56:54

have done that could have played that part but the only reason

56:58

that in every production that

57:00

I do there are three trained

57:03

actors who have got jobs in the West End

57:06

is because

57:07

Lily's in it or because so it's

57:10

about the economics you know and if

57:12

you look if you look back at how we've

57:14

cast 222 for example the majority

57:16

of the actors are my friends

57:19

stroke trusted colleagues

57:21

that I've worked with before and

57:24

one of the things we decided right early on was that all

57:26

the billing would be the same. I think we

57:28

do it in alphabetical order. Everyone's photographs

57:30

the same size. And I love the

57:32

fact that some of the people who've now got their

57:34

face and their name in lights in the West End because

57:36

Cheryl's in it. You know, so it's

57:39

economics.

57:42

I'm happy it's working with brilliantly trained,

57:45

in tune actors who wanna graft.

57:49

But

57:50

I'm part of a dynamic where

57:53

I work in theatres that don't have any subsidy,

57:56

any funding, so all the wages

57:58

come from... ticket

58:00

sales. So I've got to figure out how to

58:02

sell tickets. And also you said it before,

58:06

you're getting a demographic through the audience

58:09

who might not necessarily go to

58:11

the theatre. Yeah and who might go again.

58:13

That's the key thing isn't it? Yeah and take a bigger

58:16

risk and go and see something that hasn't got a pop

58:18

style that they know of. So

58:20

it's um they're quite hard to

58:23

take some of those things and a couple of times I could

58:26

tell some younger actors so devastated

58:28

that this opportunity has gone to someone that

58:30

they can't comprehend

58:33

as needing it or the casting of that

58:35

has done any kind of economic

58:38

or creative good. I've

58:40

often wanted to, in a friendly way, get in

58:42

touch and go, look, I'll tell you why we do this

58:44

stuff. But I

58:47

think sometimes then you can sort of open

58:50

up a channel that can, you don't know what you're only

58:52

not then, but I have, I

58:55

do have sympathy for that point

58:58

of view, but it is about a lack of economic

59:00

understanding of how commercial theatre works.

59:03

So when you said you're

59:06

open now, you're having a bit of downtime, the tools

59:08

are out. Tools are out? Possibly.

59:11

There's a big fence going on. That's why they've got

59:14

nearly took half my thumb off of the rotary

59:16

sandies. When

59:19

do you go back into the rehearsal room?

59:22

The Pennomans come in this year, so it's

59:25

another collaboration with Mark. I've got a few

59:27

weeks' workshop in a big project,

59:30

a

59:30

big theatre project that I can't talk about,

59:32

unfortunately, other than to say it's with a Hollywood

59:35

studio and it's to do a stage

59:37

version of a very,

59:39

very popular film franchise, so

59:41

that's exciting. That's just a workshop. And

59:44

then another version of 222, it's

59:47

going again. It will have been on for

59:50

more than two years. Wow. So we're

59:52

employing a lot of people with that show by

59:54

keeping that thing going

59:57

and putting the right kind of people in. And also,

59:59

as it go, it's gone. It's gone on tour as well, hasn't it? It's gone on

1:00:01

tour, yeah, at the same time. And

1:00:04

then the thing I'm very,

1:00:06

very excited about is the Pillar

1:00:09

Man, which starts, we start rehearsing

1:00:11

on the 1st of May. So I'll

1:00:14

be, I'm designing that at

1:00:16

the moment, so I'm deep into

1:00:18

that. Well, I'll be along to

1:00:20

see it. Matthew Dunsor, this has been an absolute

1:00:22

pleasure. Yeah, it's great. I've done a lot

1:00:24

of talking, forgive me. No, well

1:00:26

it's all about. Thanks, man.

1:00:30

And another episode is

1:00:33

done. What did I tell you? He's

1:00:35

just great, great company.

1:00:38

If you want to catch Matthew's work right

1:00:41

now, you can. He has directed

1:00:43

Sharon and Smith in Willie Russell's

1:00:46

Shirley Valentine. Try saying that after

1:00:48

a few pints of lager.

1:00:51

That's on in London. He's also directing a revival

1:00:54

of the brilliant The Pillowman by

1:00:58

our favourite writer, Mr. Martin with Donna starring

1:01:00

Lily Allen and Steve

1:01:02

Pemberton. That's

1:01:05

coming out later in the year. So if

1:01:07

you don't know The Pillowman,

1:01:10

don't read it. Going Cold, it's

1:01:13

a spellbinding play. It's

1:01:15

dark and it's funny and it's

1:01:18

going to set off a few conversations, I promise

1:01:20

you. So that's going to be on later in the

1:01:22

year in London. On

1:01:25

a purely personal note,

1:01:28

it was just lovely to sit down with Matthew

1:01:30

for an hour or so and see him and catch

1:01:32

up. He's a lovely guy. He's great,

1:01:35

great conversation as you've just

1:01:37

heard.

1:01:39

And if you ever get a chance to

1:01:41

work with him, jump

1:01:44

at the chance. It'll change

1:01:46

things. He's brilliant. and you'll

1:01:48

get really fit because those

1:01:51

circuit trading classes for five

1:01:53

weeks are a killer.

1:01:56

Now, next week.

1:01:59

I have no

1:02:01

idea. Let's see where it

1:02:03

takes us. I'll be here. Griff

1:02:06

will be here. I hope you'll be here. Until

1:02:09

then, keep the messages coming in on Twitter,

1:02:11

Facebook and Instagram. Email,

1:02:14

twoshotpod at gmail.com. All

1:02:17

messages are welcome.

1:02:19

Okay, I'm gonna go. Until

1:02:22

next week, I've been Craig Parkinson. He's

1:02:24

been producer Griff and And this has been

1:02:26

the Two Shot Podcast. We

1:02:29

take care.

1:02:33

The Two Shot Podcast was presented by me, Craig

1:02:35

Parkinson, recorded and produced by

1:02:37

Thomas Griffin for Splicing Block. The

1:02:39

remix of our theme tune is by Stolen

1:02:41

Volum. Cheers.

1:03:13

Tou Syndrome