0:00

Hi , my name is Ashmeeta Ramamadhu

0:02

. I am a resilience and

0:04

grief support advocate , an educator

0:06

, entrepreneur , author and

0:09

a lifelong learner . And the reason I

0:11

call myself a lifelong learner is

0:13

because of the many life-changing experiences

0:16

from my early 20s . Things

0:18

like rejection , miscarriages , the

0:20

death of both my parents and

0:22

my husband have exposed

0:25

me to emotions of intense grief and

0:27

I felt stuck and lost and

0:30

I had no way

0:32

to do anything

0:34

but venture out onto the path

0:36

of self-discovery . And

0:38

I've come to appreciate the importance of personal

0:41

growth and understand the impact

0:43

my thoughts have on shaping my reality

0:45

.

0:45

Thank , you , Ashmeeta . I know from doing

0:48

a bit of research on your story

0:51

prior to speaking this evening

0:53

. I know that there's been big

0:55

losses that you've had throughout your

0:57

lifetime and

1:00

that your story is deeply

1:03

moving . What I want to do is just touch

1:05

on your background and your personal journey

1:07

, so can you share how these experiences

1:09

have shaped your approach

1:12

to helping others

1:14

to navigate their grief ?

1:18

So my experience

1:21

with grief in various as I said

1:23

earlier in various different forms started

1:25

way back when I was in my 20s , and

1:27

at that point in my life it came

1:30

more as a shock to me . Because you're

1:32

young , you have all these expectations and

1:34

you expect , you have these plans and

1:37

you expect things to go a certain way , and

1:40

then I find myself being

1:42

rejected . I also find myself having

1:44

miscarriage and I am

1:46

totally lost and taken

1:48

by that and I just wanted to hide away , which

1:51

was helpful in some ways

1:54

, but also it was not helpful because

1:56

hiding away is not actually

1:58

the answer . If I'm hiding for a reason

2:00

to actually help myself and so

2:03

that I could get back out into

2:05

the world again , then I guess that's healthy

2:07

. But if I'm hiding because I'm afraid

2:09

of the world and

2:11

I'm afraid that people are going to hurt me or anything

2:13

that happens is going to hurt me , that's

2:15

a whole different thing altogether and

2:18

initially that is what I was doing .

2:21

Can we go back several years

2:23

before your 20s ? I was

2:25

just wondering . We all seem to be staying somewhat

2:27

with a little bit with our childhood , or how we interpret

2:30

the world , or interpret our parents and

2:32

just people that come into us day

2:35

in , day out , and I was just wondering

2:37

what was your childhood like

2:39

? Where did you grow up ?

2:40

My childhood was pretty normal

2:43

. I wear I call normal that

2:45

word I use very generally here it

2:47

wasn't . Yes , I

2:49

come from a small family . My

2:52

dad was an only child . He

2:54

had to fend for himself from the age

2:56

of 13 , living

2:58

in a new country all alone with some family

3:01

friends . His parents left him in a different

3:03

country other than where he was born , so

3:06

he grew up having

3:08

to basically fend

3:11

for himself , that he was living in another person's

3:14

house , had to earn his keep , all of that

3:16

kind of stuff . So his mindset was

3:18

important to him , was very

3:20

different compared

3:22

to another 13-year-old in his time

3:24

, in his day and time . My

3:26

mom came from a bigger family though

3:29

their four sisters , including my mom and

3:31

brother , and then her

3:33

dad had four brothers . So she

3:35

came from this huge extended

3:37

family system and in those days people

3:40

lived either next door to each other

3:42

if not in the same house also . So

3:44

her dynamics were very different

3:46

. For my brother and myself

3:49

we're just the two . There's just the two of us

3:51

Because my dad and mom

3:53

they basically had to . It was

3:55

a make or break for them . They started

3:57

off from very humble beginnings and

4:00

worked themselves to

4:02

a point where they were comfortable with

4:05

whatever they , how they wanted

4:07

to be , but for my brother and

4:09

myself , on the receiving side of that

4:11

life that they created

4:14

for us , we had so

4:16

much more opportunities . They were very

4:19

open-minded my parents , even

4:21

though , living in culture that we

4:23

come from , I'm Indian

4:25

, my culture is certain

4:27

ways and things and all

4:30

that kind of stuff that goes along with living

4:32

in a specific community . But having

4:34

said all of that , I really do think that my

4:36

parents were very accepting and open-minded

4:38

.

4:41

Were you a strong individual at

4:43

a young age , like in your early twenties ?

4:46

Oh yeah , I was pretty old in my eights

4:48

. I was a little bit

4:50

of a rebel when I was sixteen , seventeen

4:52

in my teenage years , but not

4:54

a rebel in the form of causing trouble that

4:56

would affect anybody , but rebel in my family

4:58

.

4:59

I always .

5:00

I guess I got that from my parents , so even

5:02

though they were old , it backfired a

5:04

little on them as well . Because , okay

5:07

, we have this kid . We encourage you to speak and combine

5:09

. We encourage her to say what

5:11

she's feeling . This is all coming back

5:13

at us . We sometimes even found ourselves

5:15

uncomfortable .

5:16

No , this is too much . So

5:19

after your early twenties

5:21

or you started to move through this first

5:24

, would you say that was the biggest

5:27

grief that you've experienced in your lifetime

5:29

? In your early twenties ?

5:32

At that time . Yes , it was the biggest

5:34

. It molded me , changed me

5:37

and it changed all my interactions with

5:39

anybody that I had

5:42

any interactions with in the world , especially

5:44

in that sort of relationship where you

5:46

needed to be close to someone or

5:49

something .

5:50

It definitely so then

5:52

, after this , you're like the next

5:54

big event in your

5:56

life Was it the loss of your father ?

5:59

No , the next loss was

6:01

in 2008 , the loss of my mom

6:03

.

6:04

That would be a big one .

6:06

That was my very first experience with

6:08

death up close and personal

6:11

, because I lost my mother

6:13

, the one person who was

6:16

my rock . So

6:18

that pushed me into a whole

6:20

different space . I was married

6:23

by then . I had two kids , two

6:25

young kids , two boys , and we

6:27

had just moved to the US

6:30

with my husband's job

6:32

and a year later

6:34

this all happened . So

6:38

being in a new country , still

6:40

trying to understand how , to the dynamics

6:42

of just everything that comes along with moving

6:45

to a new place , this reality

6:47

, and then the added stuff

6:49

of having to deal with the grief and the disillusionment

6:52

, not just walking

6:55

around with this weird thought in my head all the time

6:57

what's the point of this ? I'm going to die anyway . I

6:59

remember thinking that for the longest time I'm going to die

7:02

anyway . What's the point of this ? Why do I need to do

7:04

this ? My husband brought

7:06

that to . My late husband had brought that to my attention

7:08

a few times . I noticed you don't

7:10

seem to have that enthusiasm

7:13

in you anymore , the way you used to , and I'm not

7:15

sure what's going on with you . But I just want to bring

7:17

to your attention that I'm noticing this about

7:19

you .

7:20

Yeah , and that's all part of grieving , isn't it ?

7:23

It's absolutely part of grieving .

7:25

I just make this . I always say grief

7:27

makes it small while

7:29

it's doing its job . Your

7:32

mother's passing was it a long

7:34

process for you and your family

7:36

, or was it somewhat sudden ?

7:38

It was sudden , it happened within a week , so

7:44

it happened too quick . By the time I

7:46

got there she was already in that

7:48

unconscious state in hospital

7:50

and all of those machines and things like

7:52

that . I had

7:54

gone there , got there with this big

7:57

expectation , unrealistic

7:59

expectation , but at the time I

8:01

didn't think it was that I was going

8:03

to get there and my mom was going to hear my voice and

8:05

she was going to be so excited to see me and everything

8:07

was going to be fine . Then

8:09

I learned quickly that it was not going to be the case .

8:13

Did you were able to have any I don't

8:15

know conversations with her before this had

8:18

?

8:18

taken place ? No , oh

8:21

, before I left to go to

8:23

South Africa . Yes , I did . In Sweden

8:25

, South Africa . I did have a conversation

8:27

with her and , the strangest thing , I

8:30

had spoken to her and said to her

8:32

that mom , I don't want anything to happen

8:34

to you . I hope you get better soon , and all

8:36

that kind of stuff . She said something

8:38

to me . She said you know life

8:41

and death , it's something that's going to happen , but

8:43

I need you to remember one thing you

8:45

have kids and you need to take care of them . That

8:48

is what my mom said to me .

8:49

I'm like yes , I know that mom .

8:51

I'm interested in that . I don't want

8:53

anything to happen to you . That's

8:55

all she said to me when

8:58

I got there there was no chance to have

9:00

any conversation because she was already unconscious

9:02

, in an unconscious state by

9:04

that time .

9:06

Yeah , oh

9:08

, sorry to hear that part . Were you

9:10

able to communicate at all by holding

9:13

her ?

9:13

Yes , I got there I touched her hand

9:15

and I said mom , I'm here . And she just

9:17

made a sound To me . That was

9:19

her acknowledgement that she knew .

9:21

I was there .

9:22

A few hours later she was gone . So

9:25

yeah , and

9:27

at that point in my life I did not even know

9:30

much about death

9:32

. I didn't know , anything about how

9:35

the body prepares for death , the

9:38

kind of signs and things

9:40

that happen

9:42

as your body is slowly

9:45

declining , the system starts

9:47

shutting down , and the whole thing about the

9:49

breathing , how it becomes shallower , her

9:52

consciousness is slowly lost

9:54

, and all that kind of stuff . I only

9:56

learned that later on , when my husband was in hospital

9:58

. But at

10:00

the time when my mom was dying , I knew nothing

10:02

of the sort . I guess it was all

10:05

about me . When I think about

10:07

it now , it was all about me . I lost

10:09

my mom . I don't have that person

10:11

anymore because it was my rock . So

10:13

it's not about her , it's about me .

10:17

So , after your mom

10:19

, you were then left with the grief of your past

10:22

that was now building on the loss of your

10:24

mother . How long did this go before

10:26

your next stage ?

10:29

It was at least about what my

10:31

husband passed away my late

10:34

husband four years ago , so in

10:36

2008 to 2019

10:39

, I would

10:42

say those were my years with my

10:45

late husband and we were basically

10:48

just living life . And

10:50

on the grief side , I was just dealing with things

10:53

on my own because

10:55

I had learned really soon

10:58

from my husband that my

11:00

late husband had one day said to me

11:02

I know you're hurting . I don't

11:05

, I'm really supportive and I'm

11:07

here to help you in any way that I can , but

11:09

I'm feeling stuck and lost and I don't

11:12

know how to help you more . He could help

11:14

me to the best of his ability

11:16

and the tools that he had and

11:18

he had a few communication , kept communication

11:20

open , so we would always talk

11:23

about things . But he made

11:25

a very interesting statement to me one day

11:27

and he said I have never lost a parent

11:29

. I don't know what it feels like to lose

11:31

a parent , so I

11:34

can't even relate to anything that

11:36

you're feeling . I can see you said , but

11:38

I can't relate to anything that you're

11:41

feeling I can try

11:43

to , so that

11:45

I had a choice at

11:47

that moment and I don't even understand how

11:50

I did this and why I looked at it in

11:52

this specific way . But

11:54

at that

11:56

moment I decided that he

11:58

was being honest with me about where

12:01

he stood and where he is . In

12:04

this situation . I

12:06

had a choice to either

12:08

get upset with him because I'm

12:11

feeling that he's not supporting me , or

12:14

I have a choice or I

12:16

can choose to appreciate

12:18

and be grateful for his authenticity

12:20

and realize that

12:23

he is not

12:25

going to be able to help me . I

12:28

need to find other

12:30

avenues or other people that

12:32

are more qualified to help me . So

12:35

it had nothing to do with him not caring

12:37

or anything of that sort . I

12:40

still wonder sometimes why

12:42

did I even think of it that

12:44

way ? I honestly still don't know why , but

12:47

that was a turning point for

12:49

me . So then I realized okay , I'm

12:52

living a double life here . I'm going

12:54

to take care of my family , but I'm

12:56

going to deal with this grief silently

12:58

, on my own terms .

13:00

Did you share your grief with others at

13:03

that time ?

13:04

There were very few people that I could share

13:06

my grief with , the grief

13:08

that I experienced when my mom lost . When I lost

13:10

my mom , my brother

13:12

, his wife , I

13:15

could not even share it with my dad because my dad

13:17

was not that emotional , he

13:19

was not the type of person who would

13:21

have to speak his emotions .

13:23

Yes .

13:24

But my brother and his wife . Those

13:27

were the two people that I

13:29

could openly talk to about my

13:31

mom and what any thoughts as

13:33

they came up when they came up as

13:36

many times as I needed to . It

13:38

also brought us closer together

13:40

as a family . So

13:42

I always think of my sister-in-law

13:44

more as a sister than in-law

13:47

.

13:48

Was she an effective advocate

13:50

for you .

13:52

She was pretty , her demeanor , just

13:54

her personality , such that she

13:56

was . She's just a really kindhearted

13:59

person . So it was easy to talk

14:01

to her and she never really judged

14:03

or gave her opinion

14:06

about anything in that

14:08

way . So I found her

14:10

to be . It was very helpful . And

14:13

she was just newly married as well . My

14:15

brother and her were just married for like only two , three years

14:17

before , maybe four years before my

14:20

mom passed away , so we

14:22

were also still getting to know each other and things like

14:24

that . So it just

14:26

worked . Relationships are like that

14:29

. It depends on the investment and

14:31

how much you put in and

14:33

how motivated you are to want to

14:35

make that relationship work . So

14:37

I guess maybe both

14:39

of us played a part and we made it work .

14:42

Now , are you referring to your sister-in-law or your

14:44

husband ? My sister-in-law , my

14:47

brother's wife , yes , so

14:49

, at this point in your life that

14:51

you've had this double whammy

14:54

of profound loss , how did you

14:56

find the strength

14:58

to turn the page , so to speak ? Do you have

15:00

advice around this

15:02

that you could give to others struggling in the same

15:04

way ? How would you

15:06

convey that experience into aid

15:09

for others ?

15:10

I would say my

15:12

journey has taken

15:15

me to various different

15:17

places . One

15:20

is spiritual scriptures , and

15:23

I've done a lot of reading

15:25

and tried to understand various different

15:27

scriptures and especially related

15:29

to death and life and that kind of stuff

15:32

Just trying so that I could make sense

15:34

of it in my mind and

15:36

it doesn't control me . But

15:40

also other things like meditation

15:42

, breath work , understanding

15:45

my thoughts . Where

15:49

do they come from ? How

15:51

do they control me ? Do they

15:53

have control over me ? That kind of

15:55

stuff , how do I react in different situations

15:58

? So , as I experimented

16:00

with these things over time

16:02

and I've been doing this since my mom

16:04

passed away , so a

16:06

lot of these techniques were things that I was slowly

16:09

doing way

16:11

back from 2008 when

16:13

my mom died and over time

16:15

I noticed that my mind , I started

16:18

seeing things very differently

16:20

when it came to my

16:22

thoughts . So thoughts would come

16:25

into my mind and I would feel they

16:27

would be very limiting thoughts . They'd be the

16:29

kind of thoughts that make me feel like I'm

16:31

a victim or I deserve

16:35

what happened to me or all

16:37

of those kind of things , and

16:39

just dissecting

16:42

that thought and

16:44

trying to find that

16:46

hope or the positivity

16:49

in that thought was

16:52

work that I had to do for myself

16:54

. Nobody could do that for me . So

16:57

as I kept doing that , I realized that

16:59

there was one simple thing that I needed

17:01

to do for myself . Every time

17:04

I found myself in a situation where I was feeling

17:06

stressed , or the environment

17:08

was making me feel anxious or stressed

17:11

is , I would always ask myself

17:13

this question so what story are

17:15

you going to make out of what's going on right now ? How

17:18

are you going to allow this to affect you

17:20

? How are you going to allow this to change who you are

17:22

? And also , how are you going to react to

17:24

this ? And that's where the choices came in and

17:27

my thoughts

17:29

. I started working with those thoughts and

17:31

talking more to myself . Lot of self-talking

17:34

, oh my God , it seems

17:37

like I've been by all parent at some point

17:39

.

17:40

Well , again , going back into this moment

17:43

, as you have your sister-in-law

17:46

as a for

17:48

support , your husband is doing

17:50

the best that he can you

17:52

turn to trying to teach

17:54

yourself , I guess , from the

17:57

scriptures in , would

17:59

you say , in your church .

18:01

Yes , mostly scriptures in

18:03

, like the Vedic philosophy . Oh

18:06

, okay , yes .

18:07

I wasn't sure how you're using

18:10

that word , but you turn to

18:12

a higher source for

18:14

inspiration by the old ones

18:16

or the older ? Culture right

18:18

, yes Would be the safe to say

18:20

it would be like the writings of your

18:22

ancestors .

18:24

In a sense , yes , it's yeah .

18:27

So how did you boil that all

18:29

down and move forward with

18:31

that ? Was there something that was organically

18:34

changing , or were you starting to see

18:36

yourself differently or seeing the

18:38

world differently ?

18:41

I was seeing the way

18:43

I used the way I

18:45

react as my gauge . Previously I would maybe

18:47

get upset get emotionally

18:50

upset by a specific person saying something

18:52

or behaving a certain way , or

18:56

I may even feel threatened by a person's behavior or

18:58

an interaction with a specific person and over time

19:00

I noticed that person doesn't

19:03

bother me that much anymore , no matter what they

19:06

do . I'm not feeling threatened anymore . I

19:09

am not reacting . I'm not

19:11

the button . You know they can't

19:13

push my buttons that easily . So

19:15

that is my gauge .

19:18

I know when we are feeling vulnerable we

19:20

can , just can't share our deepest emotions with

19:23

anybody , and

19:26

even amongst our friends to be vulnerable with . We have

19:28

to feel safe and we have to feel

19:30

that , no matter how , we express

19:32

our grief how

19:35

we react physically or emotionally

19:37

, that we're

19:39

not gonna be judged , and so that for me , there's

19:44

fewer people where we can

19:46

actually feel like that around . Were you able

19:48

to distill a smaller group of people that

19:53

you trusted 100% ?

19:57

You know , that is an amazing

19:59

act . In my mind , the only person who can be that is

20:02

my mother . I have

20:04

found those quantities of

20:06

her , maybe one quantity in one

20:09

person , another in a different person

20:11

, but not one person with

20:14

all of those qualities . So that then makes my life

20:16

and makes things a

20:19

little more challenging in a sense , because

20:23

I need to be . I

20:26

found that I do need to be careful

20:28

who I talk to , what

20:31

I say to them and in what like to what level

20:34

. I can't be totally vulnerable

20:36

all the time , because

20:38

that then I basically am setting myself

20:40

up for failure in a sense

20:43

. The only person I can over time I've

20:45

learned as well , especially after

20:47

the passing of my husband that I can truly do that with

20:49

and I am still a work in

20:51

progress with that is myself .

20:54

Francis Weller that we were speaking about

20:56

earlier he

20:59

says that and I believe this from my experience is true

21:02

is that you can't be the container of your

21:04

grief and be able to grieve

21:06

at the same time , and

21:12

that's why we either have one or two close

21:14

people to us that we can share our

21:16

grief , or

21:18

we go to grief circles where

21:20

other grievers become

21:24

the container for us to grieve in , and

21:27

so we know we're not gonna be judged because

21:30

they're the same . It's the one thing that we share , and

21:33

this group is deep grief , and so I'm just

21:36

wondering that . I just can't imagine and

21:38

I know for myself , I would just shut down and

21:41

just contain my grief . But

21:46

then it becomes unattended grief , and

21:48

that's when it gets hard and it just

21:50

sits there in us . And

21:54

then it makes the soul just fight more Because

21:57

it needs to express itself and

21:59

we're not allowing that part of ourselves

22:01

to do that

22:04

kind of work .

22:06

And I'm wondering when did you hit ?

22:07

that point .

22:08

Now that you mentioned that , I just reminded

22:11

of something , two things that were very helpful for me

22:13

just immediately

22:15

after my husband had passed away . But

22:18

then the pandemic . Six months yeah , about six months later , the

22:20

pandemic hit . So

22:22

it made things even worse . But for that , six months before the pandemic

22:24

hit , there was some avenues . For

22:26

that it was very helpful

22:29

. The one was grief . It's

22:32

called Grief Share . It's an organization

22:34

that offers like a six or eight week program . We

22:37

meet once a week and go

22:39

through this workbook . Another

22:41

one was the funeral home

22:44

had in us had a social

22:46

worker that had reached out

22:48

to me and she , when

22:50

I took her up on her offer I

22:52

would meet with her once a week , and

22:54

the environment and the safe

22:57

space that she created for me . I

22:59

felt so welcome there and I

23:01

was able to be make myself vulnerable

23:03

with her A total stranger . But

23:06

yes , I was able to make myself vulnerable . So

23:08

, yes , that did come . And then

23:10

hospice as well has but

23:13

they do more of the group kind of sessions . So you're

23:15

going to this group and there's a whole bunch of people there and

23:18

they sharing on this various different information with you , which

23:21

is also super helpful . So

23:23

I had a one on one and then

23:25

I had this little intimate group which

23:27

was the Grief Share , but then I had this really

23:30

huge group which was with the hospice . So

23:32

between those three in that first six months

23:34

it was pretty beneficial .

23:36

From that experience . Where

23:38

did the inspiration come

23:41

then to become

23:44

a grief advocate , and

23:46

is that something changed in you ? And

23:50

I get the sense that you're discovering

23:53

some freedom that

23:55

allowed you to be less clouded . Something

23:58

was changing , something was metamorphic

24:01

yeah , morphine , because

24:03

you started developing what's your

24:05

story ?

24:09

Yes , I would say it would be . The

24:11

one day , as I was

24:13

. The pain that's associated with

24:16

grief is

24:18

so intense and made me feel

24:20

so stuck and so

24:22

helpless and so vulnerable and

24:26

a lot of these . Sometimes these

24:28

things when I have a really good

24:30

meditation session sometimes it

24:32

actually came to me one day when I was meditating

24:34

you are feeling this intense

24:37

pain . This

24:39

is what this experience is doing to you . Imagine

24:42

what it's doing to other people . How could you

24:44

help others with

24:46

what you're

24:49

doing ? And from that

24:51

the book evolved and my

24:53

website and the group and everything

24:55

it started . There it's

24:58

it was I got this experience , I

25:00

learned something from it . I'm evolving through

25:02

it . I'm not going to take

25:04

it with me when I die . I

25:06

want to leave it behind so it can help

25:09

whoever it helps , and

25:11

that's how that was the beginning of how this whole thing

25:14

started .

25:15

So did it start after your husband's passing

25:17

? Yes , yes

25:19

, and he was . He was

25:21

a big supporter , or tried to be there for

25:23

you . That experience

25:25

, ashmeeta , working

25:27

with your husband , working with you when

25:29

his time came , were

25:31

you able to support him on

25:34

his preparation to pass ?

25:36

My goodness , that was one interesting

25:39

, crazy

25:41

role of posterite . Pancreatic

25:44

cancer is my

25:46

very first experience having to

25:48

be the caregiver of someone

25:50

who has cancer . It

25:53

played a number on my husband . It

25:55

played a number on me and our family

25:58

. It was as much as we tried

26:00

to support and be there for each other , the

26:02

family that we created . It lasted

26:04

as long as it could . Once

26:06

the cancer took over and

26:09

turned , basically dissolved him

26:11

in , took his muscles

26:13

. He was bedridden . He was

26:15

home for a long enough time

26:17

where I was his caregiver . But

26:19

once he got into hospice and

26:21

things changed and he was

26:24

not ready to give up . Even in that state

26:26

he was not ready to give up , but

26:28

it changed everything . Cancer

26:32

is just such a crazy . I

26:34

don't think we could have ever been

26:36

prepared , even if we had a

26:38

game plan ahead of time .

26:41

Would it be too bold to ask you what you mean

26:43

by it ? Changed everything .

26:46

It changed the quality of our relationships

26:48

. It

26:52

stole the hard work that we put

26:54

into building

26:56

our relationship and our family relationship

26:58

with our kids . As we all

27:01

know , relationships work two

27:03

ways . Because

27:08

he wouldn't just give up easily . He would try

27:10

every avenue or anything

27:12

. He was not going to give up . It

27:16

came to that disease . Just

27:18

okay , guys , I'm going to

27:20

show you what I made of you . You don't know

27:22

what I can do . And it

27:24

took control . It didn't matter . Everything

27:27

was just slowly slipping away and it

27:30

became so intense because the drugs

27:32

that they had him on as well were

27:34

really strong painkillers . So

27:36

he was just not the same person anymore and

27:39

I think he was really bitter because the

27:42

way things were going and he wasn't

27:44

ready to go , he wasn't ready to leave . So

27:48

as his caregiver and

27:50

they say this is common as the caregiver

27:53

it all fell on me . So

27:56

he would really , in

27:58

his strange , weird ways , take

28:01

it out on me , either give me the sign of treatment

28:03

or complain about something . So it

28:05

was something that I didn't do , but

28:08

I'm grateful for the social worker that

28:10

was involved in his care , who

28:13

continually kept me focused

28:16

on what

28:18

needs to happen right now

28:20

and also on his mindset , and

28:22

she continually reminded me . Remember

28:25

, he's saying these mean things , but don't

28:27

take it personally , this is not him , this

28:29

is the disease . Speaking Just . I

28:31

know it's hard , so she was

28:34

like that coach on

28:36

this side reminding me how

28:39

, but it was really

28:41

hard . Imagine being told that you're such a pathetic

28:43

human being that you're not doing anything to help

28:45

someone and you

28:47

know in your heart that you're doing everything that you can

28:50

.

28:51

Yes , I do .

28:53

And you still need to love that person . Not me

28:55

too . You still love that person . She's

28:57

telling me to love him , but that's

28:59

just the nature and the beast of what

29:02

it's like to take care of

29:04

a person who

29:07

has a telenoid illness .

29:09

I know it's a tremendous period

29:12

of grieving , even for your husband the

29:14

loss of everything that he

29:16

knew yes , and it's just such

29:18

a hard time for a couple , but

29:22

you got through that and

29:24

did it take you before you felt settled .

29:27

It's going on for

29:29

years . I still have my

29:31

moments , so I'm

29:34

still walking this path . I

29:36

feel like it gets . Some days are really good

29:38

. I have it all together . I'm

29:40

doing what I need to do . Living in

29:43

the moment helps . Reminding myself

29:45

that what do I need to do right

29:47

now , what are the most

29:49

important things that I need to do right now , helps

29:52

me to stay focused . But our

29:54

minds are like that They'll either take us

29:56

to the past or they'll take us to the future

29:58

, and then we start making stories in our heads about

30:00

all of these things , and sometimes

30:02

a lot of these things are not even the

30:06

truth . It's just our imagination

30:09

that's gone crazy , and

30:12

then I start believing it .

30:14

I found with my grief that

30:16

it's still . I always say , you

30:18

never know when it comes up to bite

30:20

you . For me I know

30:23

. I had this terrible

30:26

grieve when my

30:30

son told me him

30:32

and his wife were pregnant , that

30:34

their mother wasn't present . Same

30:37

thing , but a week later my

30:39

daughter told me that her and her

30:41

husband are pregnant and

30:44

again it was just such a joyous

30:46

moment . But the missing was

30:48

quite painful for the

30:51

family and that she was such a mother

30:54

. So it

30:56

just becomes overwhelming . And then it clears

30:59

and it leaves and

31:01

then I guess now in my state

31:03

I'm grateful for when those moments come

31:05

, but I know that I

31:08

laugh so much more now

31:10

. I absolutely enjoy

31:12

everything . Every day is a beautiful

31:14

day , I don't care how , if it's raining

31:17

or foggy , snowing or hot

31:19

, cold , it's just . I see everything

31:22

completely different from

31:24

this grief and I'm

31:26

not sure if I read somewhere

31:28

or just came to me that for me

31:30

the passing of my parents

31:32

, the passing of my former

31:34

partner , grief

31:36

, is like the last gift that they can give

31:39

us , and it's for me

31:41

, it's that journey through grief that

31:43

, although very painful

31:46

, is that transformative

31:48

energy that makes

31:50

us bigger where it gives us a greater

31:52

capacity to love , a

31:55

greater capacity to feel joy , compassion

31:58

and the weller he says it's

32:00

can't have love without grief and

32:03

grief doesn't exist without love . And

32:06

but knowing that everything that we love we

32:08

will lose . Now , what came

32:10

first ? Was it your

32:12

book , your

32:15

operation that you got

32:17

going between writing

32:19

your book , you have the growth

32:22

story hub , you

32:25

have this website

32:27

. It's quite you

32:29

really blossomed in using

32:32

the grief . And

32:34

I was speaking with a good friend of mine

32:36

, which actually she was my guest on my very first

32:38

podcast , kathy Gleason who's

32:41

? The host on as I Live in Grief

32:43

, and it was all about

32:46

how we use our grief For me it's

32:48

. I have a grief tending workshops

32:50

that I put on with my partner , grief

32:53

circles , and I started this

32:55

podcast , and it's all from this

32:57

drive and my experience

32:59

with grief and I see

33:01

you , similar to Kathy and me we

33:04

were the three amigos now trying to use

33:06

our grief to expand

33:09

grief

33:11

literacy and to help others . So

33:13

can you give us a bit of an

33:16

idea of where this operation

33:19

of yours came from

33:21

, yes , and how it

33:23

started .

33:24

So the book came first and

33:27

with the book came the website . But

33:29

a few months after the book came out I

33:32

thought of the group

33:34

, and it was actually

33:37

around the time of the

33:39

anniversary of my husband's death , so I

33:41

thought it'd be a nice way to honor him as

33:43

well , to have a group

33:45

where I could put

33:48

out different things

33:50

about loss and death

33:52

, this topic that not many people want to talk about

33:54

, so shy away from and

33:57

I don't have

33:59

a problem talking about it because it's

34:02

just information . I really want to just make

34:05

it more comfortable for people . So if I

34:07

find any information or anything

34:09

out there that would trigger somebody to

34:11

see things in a different way , writing

34:15

my book was , in

34:17

a way , almost therapeutic . It

34:20

was in the middle of the pandemic , so we had

34:22

not much we could

34:24

do or go , not many places we

34:26

could go , so I did have a bit more

34:28

time on my hands and

34:31

even though we're kids and all that kind of

34:33

stuff , but because everything was from home , so

34:35

it was very therapeutic it was I

34:38

had to make myself

34:40

a little vulnerable to understand

34:42

certain things so that I could I

34:45

just put some information out

34:47

there about my journey . So

34:50

I think on a whole it was I'm

34:52

glad I did it . I do still second guess myself

34:55

, and I hope that I haven't . I still feel

34:57

like , oh , maybe I shouldn't have said that

34:59

, maybe I shouldn't have said this . But

35:01

I think in the bigger scheme of things

35:03

it's not . The

35:06

book is not really about

35:08

me . It

35:10

is about what

35:13

I have drawn

35:15

from the experiences

35:17

that I've had and how that

35:20

can help others . It's

35:23

not my story . It's

35:26

not like a story in

35:28

that sense . It's not

35:30

entertainment , more

35:32

like a workbook , would you say .

35:34

Is it like a workbook ?

35:37

Yes , because at the end of every chapter I do

35:39

have some questions that I've

35:41

added as well , as person reads the chapter

35:43

and maybe things come up for them the

35:46

space at the end of every chapter

35:48

to maybe write down some notes

35:50

and things like that so

35:53

yeah , this

35:56

would be a good place to end our story

35:58

for now , ashmi .

36:00

Okay , sure , I

36:02

just wanted to thank you so much for sharing

36:05

your

36:07

journey and what

36:09

has the gifts

36:11

that you created to pass on

36:13

with your book

36:16

and your words

36:18

and your website and becoming

36:20

an advocate for building

36:23

grief literacy in the greater population

36:26

, and we certainly wish

36:28

you well Any last words .

36:29

Thank you , john , it's been a pleasure

36:31

talking to you today . I really have

36:33

enjoyed this . And last words

36:36

here grief does not

36:38

need to define

36:40

or destroy us . We can

36:42

do this together , alone , as

36:45

a collective . Definitely , it's

36:48

nothing to be afraid of , just

36:50

need to take that one little step , one at a time .

36:53

All right , thank you Thanks

36:56

.