0:00

Music.

0:21

Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 420 of The Virtual Couch.

0:24

I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach,

0:29

writer, speaker, husband, and father of four, and host of the Waking Up the

0:32

Narcissism podcast, co-host of Love ADHD with my good friend Julie Lee,

0:36

as well as the Mind the Mirror Me with my daughter Mackie, Murder on the Couch with Sydney.

0:40

And please go to TonyOverbay.com, sign up for my newsletter,

0:43

and follow me on Instagram at TonyOverbay underscore LMFT, or at Virtual Couch on TikTok.

0:49

We've been pumping out the reels as of late, so a lot of good content there.

0:53

But let's get to today's show, and welcome back to the Virtual Couch.

0:58

And go ahead, take a seat. Sorry, the middle cushion there does have a little

1:02

bit of wear to it, but actual true story, at least in my experience,

1:06

the couch for the therapist does matter. I've done a three-cushion couch, and a single solitary client will go right

1:12

to the middle cushion and wear it out. And if you you have a couple coming in, they basically go to the outside edges

1:18

of the solitary cushion and it almost forces them to sit apart,

1:21

which is kind of interesting. And then maybe I'm reading that a little bit wrong when I'm trying to read the room.

1:26

But if you have a two cushion couch, then the solitary client goes to the middle

1:30

and will create almost like a vortex that can be really difficult to get out

1:33

of the deeper that it gets and the more relaxed that somebody finds themselves in therapy.

1:37

And I've done leather or faux leather for years.

1:41

You can wipe it up nice, clean it really well. and finally went fabric,

1:45

but it's very cushiony and more fun facts.

1:48

The furniture store would not warranty that bad boy when I decided to be honest

1:51

and tell them what I do for a living or honestly more.

1:55

I felt like the person selling me that last couch was probably in need of a

1:58

little therapy because they made sure and let me know when they found out what

2:02

I do about the difficulties with the old ball and chain,

2:04

a boss, if you know what I mean, which I mean, technically I did,

2:08

but I think this guy wanted a fist bump along with my acknowledgement,

2:12

not me wanting to reach for a business card. But anyway, I have missed you all.

2:16

And as these podcasts are evergreen, I thought about just pretending that nothing happened.

2:20

No, I did not have my first ever two-week break of all podcasts in the history

2:24

of my podcasting, but I did. And we're going to use that to talk about change today, along with some pretty

2:28

cool change-related research that I stumbled upon.

2:31

But I have missed podcasting. And I've appreciated those who have reached out,

2:35

asked if everything was okay. Did we in fact make the move? How did it go? Et cetera, et cetera.

2:39

So I'm thrilled to be here speaking to you again.

2:42

It has honestly been a whirlwind of a month.

2:45

After 31 years in California and almost 25 years in the same home,

2:50

it was really wild as we embarked on a new adventure, moving to Arizona.

2:55

And quick train of thought, I love what I do and I'm passionate about this work

2:59

and I eat it and I breathe it and I sleep it, but you really can't understand

3:02

a principle until you live it. And I love saying that we don't know what we don't know and I certainly,

3:08

as much as I talked about change and embracing change, boy, you don't really

3:11

know until you embrace a big change. And I remember when my daughter Alex got in a near fatal car accident a little

3:18

over two years ago, the very phrases that I used to say, the things like,

3:21

you know, acknowledge, feel the feelings and invite them to come with you while

3:25

you do value-based things. I remember at that time, that suddenly felt incredibly difficult with what I

3:31

was going through and I came on soon after.

3:33

I remember I shared that if I would have been my therapist at the time that

3:37

she went through that accident, I probably would have punched myself in the

3:41

neck, or my therapist being me.

3:43

And then I realized that sometimes those feelings just hit harder than others

3:48

based on the circumstances that you are a particular feeling.

3:51

And sometimes that is where it's going to take as long as it's going to take,

3:55

or you're going to be able to work through things when you can.

3:58

And while I can now look back and honestly say that I learned so much about

4:03

myself, and not trying to say that from an egotistical standpoint,

4:06

that that was all about me. But we really only know what our own experience is. We can try our best to be

4:11

curious and to have empathy over what others are going through.

4:14

But the proverbial, at the end of the day, everything is a you issue. It's a me issue.

4:19

And so that was my opportunity to learn, to grow, and I'm so grateful that my

4:25

daughter is better. her. But I learned so much about my family during that time and my relationship with

4:30

my family, and I really didn't have a clue about what I didn't know.

4:34

And ironically, then this move actually has to do with her being pregnant and

4:38

her and her husband, Mitch, expecting their first son, my grandson, in a couple of months.

4:41

So I speak of change. I so often speak of change, and I am of the belief that

4:47

change brings opportunity for growth. And I thought I'd experienced some change on occasion, but man,

4:53

change, big life changes, that does bring tremendous opportunity for discomfort.

4:58

And I recognize and I acknowledge that this was a move of our choice.

5:01

And so many people don't have that luxury, so to speak, of choosing to move.

5:07

I don't want to dismiss that or downplay that, but regardless of if it is a

5:11

choice to be made, or if it is a choice that is forced upon you, it is change.

5:16

And that does bring a lot of things. It brings discomfort, it brings uncertainty,

5:21

and those are opportunities to grow.

5:25

So this journey filled with unexpected turns and lessons,

5:29

it reminded me of a phrase that I do find myself saying to myself often,

5:34

and it makes its way into therapy and podcasts, that this is the very first

5:37

time that you are going through life as you.

5:40

And man, did I live those words these past few weeks. So today I want to share

5:45

a little bit about what the move taught. Basically, the move is the thing that caused me to have a lot of feelings and

5:52

put me in a position to recognize so many things I didn't know that I didn't know.

5:56

And it didn't just teach me things about packing boxes or saying goodbyes.

6:01

Man, I'll talk about that in a bit. But about facing life's unknowns with acceptance, self-confrontation,

6:07

and then how do you seize ease those opportunities for growth when they are

6:11

incredibly uncomfortable. Let me set the scene for today's podcast as well with some information about change.

6:18

And this is from an article from Psychology Today called, Your Brain Thinks

6:22

Change Is As Good As Rest. So I loved that topic because I think most of the people I'm working with wish

6:29

they could have more rest and less change.

6:31

But if your brain truly says, well, I kind of think change is pretty cool,

6:35

as good as rest, then if we are are not embracing change.

6:39

I'm not going to say what is wrong with us, but check that out.

6:42

What can we learn here? And this is by E. Paul Zier. He's a PhD.

6:47

And so I will refer to him as Dr. Paul. I hope that that is okay because I hope

6:51

that I'm pronouncing his last name correctly. But so Dr. Paul.

6:55

And the subheading says fatigue is specific to what we're doing.

6:59

Changing things up can be refreshing. And he goes on to share that if you think about it, fatigue is tiring, and no surprise there.

7:09

But fatigue can also mean a lot of different things, depending on the context.

7:12

A common thread, though, is that when we say that something is fatiguing,

7:17

maybe what we really mean is that continuing to do the thing,

7:20

whatever that thing is getting harder and harder, and eventually impossible to maintain.

7:25

And I was talking earlier this week with my friend, Coach Craig Pera,

7:28

Sarah, creator of The Mindful Habit, which is the basis of my Path Back Recovery

7:32

course. Please go sign up today. Seriously, honestly, email me right now and just ask and I'll give you a coupon code.

7:38

But Coach Craig and I were talking about just the concept of capacity.

7:42

And so often, because I love preaching emotional consistency,

7:46

so we can do something basically until we can't.

7:50

And sometimes people will stick to a task almost in this bullheaded fashion

7:55

because, and I appreciate this, where they say, but I want to keep my word.

8:00

And I think that is one of the greatest areas to work from, because that is

8:05

what helps build safety in a relationship and build trust.

8:09

But there are times where it might be more of a capacity issue.

8:12

Maybe we do run out of gas emotionally, or maybe we do just shut down. We're tired.

8:17

We can't talk our body out of not being able to go on.

8:20

And I think maybe that is an opportunity for growth, is to be able to embrace

8:26

Embrace that discomfort of feeling or worrying that I might let somebody down

8:30

and then going on to then own it and express that,

8:33

man, I thought I could do this and I've been able to until now.

8:37

Fatigue is set in and that is an opportunity for me to grow because when we

8:41

are setting out on any kind of journey, conquest, even going after a goal,

8:45

we're at the beginning of that journey.

8:47

So we may set this expectation that we really don't have any clue about what

8:52

that's going to look like after however long, whatever the metric is, a day, a week, a year.

8:58

And I think about this in the context so often of where people are really disappointed

9:01

at times that they are where they are in their life at the time that they're coming in to see me.

9:05

But then when I say, okay, where did you think you would be?

9:08

Then they lay out this narrative that they've been telling themselves since

9:11

they were a 10-year-old kid. And now they're disappointed that their 10-year-old or 12-year-old or even teenage

9:17

self wasn't able to predict the future and anticipate all of the turns and bumps

9:22

and bruises that were going to come along the way.

9:25

So that is an opportunity for growth because it will feel uncomfortable that

9:29

I'm not the pirate astronaut baseball player living on a beach like I thought I would be at this point.

9:34

But check that out. So what an opportunity for growth.

9:38

And to give myself grace that my 12-year-old self didn't quite have it figured

9:42

out. Surprise, surprise. Capacity. Something to just put out there. It's a capacity issue.

9:48

Or what are your issues where you feel like you do hit your capacity?

9:51

And it goes back to you are the only one that knows what it feels like to be you.

9:56

If you truly feel like you are at your wit's end or you feel like you can't

10:01

give more in a project, in a relationship,

10:03

first of all, give yourself grace and understand that, okay,

10:08

now you are in that point, in that moment in life for the very first time and check that out.

10:12

You anticipated that it wouldn't feel the way that it is.

10:16

But I'm going to embrace those feelings and I'm going to say,

10:18

okay, what are they teaching me? That maybe now I do need to learn to self-advocate, learn to sit with that discomfort

10:24

and share with someone that I thought I would be able to hit a certain mark or do a certain thing.

10:30

But now I'm realizing that as I'm involved in whatever the activity is,

10:34

that I am recognizing now that guess that I made was a bit inaccurate.

10:40

And again, it goes back to you are the only one who knows what it feels like

10:44

to be you, and if it's a capacity issue, or if here is this opportunity to grow through discomfort,

10:51

which it really does make me go to the world of exercise or high-intensity exercise.

10:58

Or for me, it's the 25 years as an ultramarathon runner and talk about this

11:04

battle in my head constantly of, oh wait, no, is my body literally about to shut down?

11:09

Or is this an opportunity to continue to go forward even though I'm experiencing

11:15

a tremendous amount of pain?

11:17

And for those who have often wondered, why does someone run anything,

11:22

10 miles, 20 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles or more?

11:26

And I used to say, oh, it's so I can eat ice cream. But boy,

11:28

when you really sit and think about it, if you felt like you were full of guilt or shame growing up,

11:34

if you felt like people didn't hear you, if you were one who would then turn

11:39

inward and start to beat yourself up, man, what a way to now learn to embrace and work through pain.

11:45

What a way to do that. It is that high-intensity exercise.

11:49

It's the ultra running. So what am I running from? It's more like, what am I running into?

11:53

To? What am I running through in order to almost subconsciously prove to myself

11:56

that I can do difficult things, even though maybe caregivers or others in one's

12:03

life are not as supportive? So people often do those things, those accomplishments, hoping to get validation.

12:10

But really, that is one of the, I have found one of the best ways to get your

12:15

own self-validation by completing something. Yeah, it's great when everybody says, way to go.

12:20

But that's one of of those things where you know that you did the hard thing.

12:23

So this does bring me to a little bit of a story time.

12:26

So this article took me back to the very first time that I ran the Lake Tahoe 100 mile race.

12:32

And I had headed up to the race, I felt pretty prepped, as prepped as anybody

12:35

can be for running 100 miles through the woods.

12:37

But at that point, I believe, and I actually went back and double checked because

12:41

now just being aware of the wonderful fallibility of memory.

12:45

But I had completed 200 mile races at that point.

12:49

But man, when you hit mile 60, 70, 80 and beyond, it is entering a whole new

12:55

world of hurt, regardless of the preparation or training, at least for me,

12:59

of what you had done before. Plus, Lake Tahoe is at elevation, which as a non-professional runner,

13:04

I couldn't go spend three weeks in elevation trying to just get okay with that

13:11

environment just to make sure that it didn't have a significant negative impact.

13:15

Because at this particular race, it did. The elevation was incredible.

13:19

And I remember those first 20 or 30 miles, just feeling like my heart was going

13:23

to beat out of my chest, regardless of my pace.

13:26

And it pretty much becomes this, your brain and your body arm wrestling each other most of the time.

13:31

But there was one time, climbing in particular, what felt like to be the top

13:36

of the world. It was, I think, approaching mile 92.

13:39

And I had my buddy Trevor Nielsen pacing me. And we hit over the 9,000 foot

13:43

mark. and let me tell you, after running 90 miles, plus the day and night,

13:47

and now we're entering the second sunrise, the next day that we had going on,

13:51

my brain did this really funny thing. And I just found myself starting to speak in numbers. It was like my brain switched

13:57

gears to something that I, and I am not a numbers guy.

13:59

I'm not a math wizard, but I was just this yelling numbers out loud.

14:04

And I really thought that Trevor would understand.

14:06

And so I would look at him very, I remember very, I was being very puzzled and

14:09

curious of why he wasn't responding when I'm just, laying out a string of numbers.

14:13

I'm spitting out miles and calories and how much water I'm downing all while

14:17

he's probably wondering, what on earth is this about?

14:20

What is he supposed to do? What is he supposed to do with that?

14:23

And it kind of hit me, you know, you're always crunching numbers in these races,

14:25

trying to make sure that you take in enough calories or make sure that you don't

14:29

hit that point where if you lose too much water weight, they'll pull you out

14:33

of the race for dropping too much weight.

14:35

And on that note, I think this is a real funny thing that happens after you're done running.

14:39

So here you've been, you've been sweating buckets and you've been just drinking

14:42

water like a fish over the course of 24 or 28 solid hours.

14:47

And so then when you finally stop. I feel like your body's almost saying, okay, is this guy, he might do this again.

14:53

So we better hold on to all the water.

14:56

Like we're preparing for the Y2K. There's a good old reference for you years ago.

15:02

But like, or the apocalypse or something. And you hold and retain water for a day or two.

15:07

And you end up putting on about 10 pounds and feeling really bloaty,

15:11

puffing you up. And then give it a couple of days.

15:13

And then suddenly your body's kind of like, okay, I think we're good.

15:16

I don't think he's going to do that again. So we can let all that water go. And the next thing you know,

15:20

you are racing to the bathroom every 15 minutes. And I'm telling you, as a therapist, trying to sit through therapy sessions

15:25

without a bathroom break was almost as intense as intense with my brief love

15:30

affair with dried apricots. That's another lesson that I learned the hard way. But throughout this race,

15:34

especially on that trek up the mile 92, my focus kept flip-flopping.

15:37

First, it's my breathing, getting very heavy because of the climb or the elevation

15:43

or just from being wiped out. And then when I can't stand thinking about how

15:47

hard it is to breathe, my breathing is getting so labored, then my legs would

15:51

start screaming at me instead. And it's not just any pain, it's that kind of pain that makes you think twice

15:56

about every single step. But then just as my legs are about to give out, I switch back to focusing on

16:00

my breathing. And it was like this mental game of trying to keep myself from

16:04

thinking about giving up. But that whole experience really hammers home how I really believe fatigue isn't

16:10

just about your muscles giving out or your brain checking out. It's both.

16:13

So sometimes it feels like your brain is trying to convince you to stop,

16:16

not just at race or running, but in a lot of different tasks.

16:19

And other times your body is maybe on the verge of quitting,

16:22

but somehow you find ways to keep those legs moving and that mind pushing through.

16:26

And it becomes this wild dance between wanting to keep going and your body begging for a break.

16:32

Back to the article, and again, I hope he doesn't mind me calling him Dr. Paul, but Dr.

16:35

Paul asks, have you ever thought about how just thinking about being tired can

16:40

actually make you feel more tired? But I hear what he's saying. I think that dealing with fatigue,

16:45

whether it's mental or physical, is just one of those things that I hear so often in my office.

16:49

People saying that they are just exhausted.

16:52

And if I dig in and I ask, okay, sometimes is it mental? Is it physical?

16:56

I feel like I'll just get the answer, yes. And I often wonder if that fatigue is your own body trying to communicate something

17:02

to you. Sure, it could be as simple as, why on earth are you running 100 miles?

17:06

Or it could be as simple as, yeah, get some sleep, dummy. Or is it,

17:10

hey, are we going to do this thing that provides absolutely zero purpose or

17:14

value to your life again and again, quite frankly, I would rather sit this one out.

17:17

And I think about that when people are in jobs, they just feel like a complete

17:21

lack of any kind of interest in, and they maybe have tried to add their value,

17:27

one of their core values into their work environment.

17:30

But then at some point, it's their own body just saying, okay,

17:33

this is not what I'm on earth for. So again, I need to communicate this to my host somehow.

17:39

But it's kind of wild, right? So fatigue is one of those things that can mean

17:41

a whole bunch of different things depending on what we're talking about.

17:44

But I feel like no matter how you slice it, when we say that we are feeling

17:47

fatigued, it's like we're saying, hey, keeping this up is getting tougher and tougher.

17:51

I might not be able to keep going, whatever the it is.

17:54

And I can speak with some confidence that when you are engaged in things that

17:57

matter to you, living a little more of a value-based or purpose-filled life,

18:02

life, it doesn't mean that you can go without sleep altogether.

18:04

But I do think that you may have a bit more pep in your step or you're more

18:08

eager to do the things that you want to do other than the things you don't.

18:12

So to me, the running for me personally was just, I didn't know it.

18:16

I don't even think at the time of what it represented to me.

18:19

So then I think a lot of people might hear that, well, why would you just,

18:22

if you were thinking in terms of numbers and that can't be good on your health

18:25

and why are you at mile 90 over 9,000 feet anyway?

18:29

Well, it was because that that really did mean something to me,

18:31

that that was a me thing. And so that's a place where I was able to push through fatigue.

18:37

And I was able to then focus on breathing when legs hurt, and then legs when

18:40

breathing was labored, and then eventually got to that finish line.

18:44

But I know that if that is not something that matters to you or to someone else,

18:48

that isn't going to be something that they might be able to do.

18:53

And I can think about experiences I've had in my own life where I just really

18:57

haven't really cared a lot about whatever it was that I was doing at that time.

19:01

And in those situations, then I do feel like maybe a mental fatigue or a mental

19:06

fog will set in, but then I will beat myself up for not finishing.

19:11

How can I finish, you know, 100 ultra marathons and a dozen races over 100 miles,

19:15

but then not want to finish something that maybe takes 10 or 15 minutes?

19:20

Well, a lot of that is because it just doesn't speak to me that it isn't something that I find value in.

19:25

Now, that again becomes either an opportunity for growth that I can check this

19:29

out, I can finish this thing, especially if it's service or there to benefit others,

19:32

even if I'm feeling that fatigue pushing through it, or there are going to be

19:37

situations in your life and you'll be the one that ultimately will decide where

19:40

that fatigue might be telling you, we have to do something different because

19:44

we are going to run out of capacity.

19:46

And at that point, now I worry that we're going to start slipping into starting

19:51

to feel, I don't know, restless,

19:54

anxious, depressed, we're starting to have experienced physical symptoms where

19:58

this is where things like, I don't know, irritable bowel, chronic fatigue,

20:01

fibromyalgia, these sorts of things may kick in. And again, I'm not a doctor, but I feel like I have enough anecdotal experience

20:08

of people who then, when they start finding things that matter and a purpose and,

20:13

letting go of the, what's wrong with me, I'm broken, when they let go of that

20:17

narrative, then sometimes you see a little bit more of that pep in the step

20:21

and that fatigue isn't as strong. You know, I was just talking with a client a couple of days ago,

20:25

and he was talking about feeling just an overall lack of motivation in his life.

20:29

Everything in his life was kind of just okay. His job, okay.

20:33

His marriage, it could be worse, could be better. His kids, they've been worse.

20:37

They could also be better as well. His hobbies, they're fine.

20:40

And it led me to this concept of change being for good.

20:44

Because I think that the pop psychology vibe is that change is running away

20:47

from your problems, that you're still taking your problems with you.

20:50

But in my humble opinion, and now having moved for the first time in 30 plus

20:54

years, uprooting a family, a therapy practice, so many unknowns,

20:57

I honestly think that, yeah, you're bringing along some of your familiar tried

21:01

and true tendencies, your greatest hits. But if you're really doing the work, your work, your internal work,

21:08

and this causes me to recall a little what about Bob, if you're doing the work,

21:11

if you're baby stepping, baby stepping, you're trying, then change not only offers you a little bit of

21:16

a dopamine bump of novelty, sure, but with a side of perhaps,

21:19

or even a full portion of it could be some anxiety and some uncertainty with

21:24

a bonus bucket of what ifs and yeah buts.

21:26

But if you've been on the virtual couch for the last six months to a year,

21:30

you'll know that it can also provide you with your muse,

21:35

this thing that you're going to interact with, your opportunity to interact

21:38

with change, to feel feelings, and know what you didn't know.

21:43

And to be able to sit with that discomfort and then acknowledge,

21:47

of course, I don't know what I don't know. This is the first time I've ever been through life as me in this situation. situation.

21:53

And if somebody else is saying, man, I can't believe you don't know that. Okay, well, thank you.

21:58

It kind of sounds like a you thing. And I'm not saying that in a dismissive way, but I don't know it.

22:03

I don't know what I'm supposed to say to make you feel better about me not knowing something.

22:08

Because learning how to differentiate and knowing what you don't know,

22:13

to be able to differentiate, meaning that ultimately, all of the wonderfully

22:17

unique and frustrating challenges that are coming up for you are, in fact, you issues.

22:23

But similar to how the spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down,

22:28

these are you issues in the most delightful way.

22:31

This is your opportunity to self-confront and, yes, grow. Growth happens in

22:35

the discomfort. Growth doesn't necessarily happen through repetition.

22:38

Sure, you could repeatedly lift weights with only your right arm and become

22:41

the world's greatest wrestler with tiny legs and a tiny left arm and a ginormous right arm.

22:45

So there you go, Mr. Smarty Pants. It was playing the role of contrarian in

22:48

today's episode, but I'm talking just like a good trail run where the variations

22:53

of surface and pitch and camber and ascent and descent help build not only your major leg muscles,

23:00

but it also gives you an opportunity for growth in a lot of the little smaller

23:04

muscle groups for a more well-rounded experience.

23:08

We grow from discomfort, but we are wired to avoid discomfort.

23:13

What a beautiful paradox. So I think that often in our lives, we spend so much time trying to avoid discomfort

23:18

altogether that we miss out on amazing opportunities for growing and for living

23:23

and for experiencing all that we can on this amazing earth.

23:27

The yeah buts are always going to be there. Yeah, but I don't know how.

23:30

Yeah, but I don't know if it'll even work. Yeah, but I don't know if our house

23:33

will sell. Yeah, but I'm not sure if my debt to income ratio is good enough to get a home loan.

23:37

Yeah, but I don't know if I can transition to more virtual clients for a while.

23:41

Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but. And the thing is, all of those yeah, buts are valid.

23:47

All of them may be absolutely true, but you'll never know if you simply run

23:52

away or withdraw or retreat from the first sign of discomfort.

23:56

And if you've been avoiding discomfort for more than a year or two or three

24:00

in your life, the chances are that that interior landscape of your mind or what

24:04

it feels like to be you, which remember is built upon the slow residue of your lived experience,

24:11

means that what it feels like to be you is you may not even contemplate change

24:15

because your brain has become so efficient at skipping steps to save electrical

24:20

activity, to avoid discomfort, that I would hazard a guess that even if you start to think about change,

24:26

it might just skip right to anxiety and that feeling Feeling alone causes you to move on.

24:31

There's nothing to see here, so you'll need to learn to sit for a second.

24:37

Build in that pause. Here's where mindfulness comes in. Meditation.

24:40

Learning how to pause and check out those thoughts and feel those feelings and

24:44

identify what those yeah buts are. What are those feelings?

24:48

And then that is a tremendous opportunity for growth, to be able to acknowledge the feelings.

24:53

Hey fear, nice of you to stop by. I know you mean well. Well,

24:56

I do wonder, however, if you are just a secondary emotion. I wonder if you're

24:59

coming to the rescue of embarrassment. Because what if I get on the phone with the mortgage broker and he tells me

25:04

that I need to pay down some credit card debt? That's uncomfortable.

25:07

But deep inside, I know it's true. But to do that, I might have to actually

25:11

confront my financial situation. And that is incredibly uncomfortable.

25:15

Because that means I may have to slow down my spending. Which means that I might.

25:19

Have to bring it up with my spouse. And I might have to say no more to my kids. And I already don't feel like I'm

25:23

a good parent. And all that feels icky. and so where's my phone and where's that bingo game?

25:26

There you go, discomfort gone. And I will deal with all this later, tomorrow.

25:31

Yeah, or since it is Thursday at the time of this recording,

25:35

then I'll deal with it next Monday. But that will actually be the 16th, so maybe next month on the 1st.

25:40

That's it. That is when I will deal with this discomfort and make the huge change.

25:45

So here's the big question. Back to Dr. Paul. Is fatigue something that comes

25:49

from inside of us, or is it something that happens because of external stuff?

25:53

In the world of sensory motor neuroscience, which is just a very fancy way of

25:58

saying the science of how our senses and movement work together, the researchers, scientists have been searching and scratching their heads about

26:05

fatigue for a long time. time. And they look at it in terms of how well we can do something physical over time,

26:11

like holding a muscle tight or doing a bunch of reps at the gym or running or biking for a while.

26:16

But scientists, though, have been so curious about fatigue for a long time that

26:19

they want to know things like what kicks it off. How do we define it?

26:23

How do we shake off fatigue? And so when researchers really get down into the nitty gritty of fatigue,

26:28

they often talk about it in two ways, central and peripheral.

26:31

And you can think of central as the inside stuff, the brain stuff,

26:35

the brain-based reasons that you might lose motivation to keep going.

26:38

The yeah buts, like your brain saying, no, I'm good. Let's stop.

26:41

And on the other hand, the peripheral is more about the outside stuff,

26:44

like your muscles, getting the memo and acting on it and how all that feels to you.

26:48

That's why I love this concept of the experience that I had running this 100

26:53

miler, that at times that it really was the central part that was trying to

26:58

signal fatigue, the mental. And then there was also the peripheral, which were literally my legs screaming

27:03

at me at times and wondering why, why you weren't getting the memo brain.

27:08

Here's the kicker though, in real life, fatigue isn't just then an inside job

27:12

or an outside job, it really is a bit of both.

27:15

And our brain and our muscles team up to decide when we've hit our limit,

27:18

when we've hit our capacity. So through these central and peripheral concepts, I mean, they may sound like

27:25

they're pretty clear cut categories inside the body outside,

27:29

but in reality, They're more like these guidelines or these really blurry lines

27:32

that scientists use to try and get a handle on the whole fatigue thing.

27:38

So let me jump now into more of the narrative of the stories that happened during the move.

27:42

And I just want to freestyle maybe as the kids would say, again,

27:46

not sure which kids those are, and just tell a couple of quick stories and things

27:49

I learned about myself through the move.

27:53

What was it that led me to just embrace the move?

27:57

And I almost want this as a bit of an audio journal of sorts,

28:00

because I do feel like over the past six months to a year, there has been an

28:04

increasing vibe, energy, or thought process going on inside of me.

28:08

And I want to speak to this because, as I mentioned earlier in the episode,

28:12

that the way that I think someone can truly speak to or maybe even teach or

28:17

guide in a situation is if they have been through this before.

28:21

And so the more that I was talking about being differentiated and everything

28:25

is an opportunity for growth and

28:28

continuing to meditate daily and not just falling asleep when I meditate,

28:32

but then starting to increase the time of my meditation and recognizing right

28:36

there that even though I have claimed

28:38

the benefits of mindfulness and a meditative practice for years now,

28:42

the last year it has been an entirely different experience where now I'm saying,

28:47

man, I had no idea what I didn't know about what it feels like to consistently practice.

28:52

Create a time and a space for meditation. I understand now why people talk about it so much.

28:58

And if you're hearing this and thinking, I don't have time, I can't stop my thoughts.

29:02

Again, all of those are yeah buts. And I would just highly, highly encourage

29:06

you to do this for yourself. If you could get a feeling of what it would feel like, I think,

29:10

to meditate for, let's say, six months, at least six days a week, you would do it.

29:15

You would say, man, I will stop the podcast right now and I want more of that. I will meditate.

29:20

Because just the way that it affects your central nervous system and lowers

29:24

that resting heart rate and allows you to just be in that moment more.

29:27

So heading into the move, there were so many things that I could tell that especially

29:32

people in my family, a lot of people around me that were getting very anxious

29:36

or nervous about all of the unknowns, the yeah buts.

29:40

And I found myself having almost a difficult time getting very worked up about

29:45

something that I didn't know because I didn't know it.

29:48

And it's It's expected to be curious or be nervous or maybe even a little bit

29:56

frightened about the future because our brain wants certainty so bad and we

30:01

have to accept the fact that we don't know.

30:04

And I think this goes back to that acceptance means to take in without defense in its entirety.

30:10

So if I accept the fact that there are going to be a lot of uncomfortable moments

30:14

coming And there are so many unknowns and there is not certainty,

30:17

then the fact that those things are there is no longer as scary because now

30:23

it's like, well, I've accepted that. Oh, of course, I don't know.

30:26

If we start finding ourselves saying, well, what if our house doesn't sell and

30:29

what if we can't find a house in Arizona? And what if we can't afford it? And what if we can't get the loan?

30:34

Then, yeah, those things would be wild.

30:36

So with that said, let's get right back to the present. What do we need to start

30:40

doing? And I'll tell you one of the first things was...

30:43

I would never think of myself as one who hoards, who collects,

30:47

who keeps a lot of things. But I think if you've been in a house for over a quarter of a century,

30:53

you probably have a lot of things.

30:55

And so the first step of that really was, okay, let's start to declutter.

30:59

Let's start to get rid of. Let's start to throw things away, sell things, donate things,

31:04

do everything that we can to reduce. And I'm hoping that that vibe will continue because it was quite a while ago,

31:11

quite a few months ago. go. And that just became empowering in and of itself.

31:15

And I would notice, talk about an opportunity for growth, how often I wanted

31:19

to not do things like declutter, get rid of, go through closets, go through the garage.

31:25

And weekends would come and then I wanted to rest and relax.

31:29

And so I could want those things. I could notice those things.

31:31

And that's the moments where I felt like I could invite those things to go along

31:34

with me while I do, while I just continue to move forward and take action.

31:38

And so that became a bit empowering.

31:41

But even then, it just led to the next step about, okay, what do we do to get the house ready?

31:46

We get our realtor, a good friend of mine named Drew.

31:49

And Drew comes over and he looks through the house and we're taking notes.

31:52

And okay, now we have a lot of action items. Now we have to, again, take action.

31:56

And we would notice how often you would want to just say, okay,

31:59

I'll do it later. But oh, that old chestnut, the old do it later story.

32:02

And so it really was a constant opportunity when you would have free time to

32:08

then know that there are things that I can do, even though I don't want to do them.

32:13

And, and I really feel like the concept as well of, I, I would,

32:19

I've heard people say that they don't want to do it wrong, whatever it is.

32:22

I don't want to do it out of order. I don't want to pack too early.

32:25

I don't want to get rid of the wrong things. I don't even know what the right

32:28

thing to do is. And this is where I would love to suspend that concept of right

32:32

and wrong a little bit more, because in reality, if we can just do those things, and again, Mr.

32:39

Contrarian, if you're saying, oh, okay, so right and wrong, no difference, murder, anyone?

32:44

If you went right to murder, then that frightens me a little bit.

32:47

But if we're talking about, okay, I'm just doing, and then what is,

32:51

again, so fascinating about this is, I'll tell a story that will change the details slightly,

32:56

but let's just say that there was this adult couple, they were wanting to pull

33:00

a hilarious fun prank on a friend of theirs, and they got the wrong street.

33:04

And they pulled this prank a little bit later at night, and the people that

33:08

opened the door did not find the prank hilarious because they had young kids

33:12

and it was late at night. The person was in my office and they were saying, man, I know I blew it.

33:16

I know I did the wrong thing. That was so wrong. That was so bad of me.

33:19

And I just brought some awareness to ask them, do your friends that you were

33:24

going to do the prank on, did you end up telling them? And this person said, absolutely.

33:29

And I said, what did they say? Well, they said it would have been hilarious.

33:32

So then if you would have done it at that home, the thing you did would have

33:36

been hilarious, but you did it at another home that you thought was their home.

33:39

And because of the reaction of that person, now it was a bad thing.

33:43

And I just thought that was a really fascinating way to lay out that we're just doing and being.

33:47

And then if somebody says, I don't like the way you did that, oh man, sorry, did I do it wrong?

33:51

Or if somebody says, I think the way you did that was amazing,

33:53

oh, well, thank you. So I guess I did that right. So you're just doing and being. And then, especially when it comes to these

34:00

things that we haven't done before, the moves, the larger things in life.

34:04

Give yourself grace. It is going to be an opportunity for growth,

34:07

and you're going to be able to course correct along the way. If you make a certain decision, and I'm not saying a wrong decision,

34:12

but one that then you find is not as beneficial or helpful, then you get to make another decision.

34:17

And you can make as many of those decisions as you would like.

34:19

Welcome to the world of adulting and being an adult human being.

34:23

Now, other people may take offense or take exception, and that's where I don't

34:27

want to sound dismissive saying, well, that is a them thing,

34:30

because I think we can look at that with curiosity. Well, hey,

34:32

tell me why this is is uncomfortable for you. Like, I would love to process this with you and that will help me get better.

34:38

And maybe I can help shed some light on what I'm doing and it might help even

34:43

ease your anxiety a little bit. But there's one story, there's several stories that I want to share.

34:49

I'll share a couple of them and then maybe we'll put some more in an episode down the road.

34:53

But this is one that will sound, I think, a little bit like not as big of a

34:57

deal as I made it into, to, but it was wonderful. So this was well into the moving process.

35:02

My wife did an amazing job packing and getting everything ready.

35:05

And she got so much packing material and there were a couple of flat screen

35:09

TVs that we had to put, and she bought these TV boxes and she was doing a million other things.

35:13

And then tasked me with, could I pack those up?

35:17

These flat screen TVs, here's some bubble wrap, here's these TV boxes.

35:21

And so it was a little bit late. I did have to get up early the next morning,

35:24

but I had said, I will do that. You bet. I will take care of that.

35:28

And then I noticed that my ADHD

35:31

was running wild with all the different things that needed to be done.

35:34

And I kept finding myself going off and doing smaller tasks.

35:37

But then I got finally to the packing up of the TVs.

35:41

And I will tell you, the emotional immaturity in me wanted to just scream and

35:46

come out and throw a fit because I wanted to say, okay, now it's too late and

35:49

I have to get up too early. But this was one where I had said, I will do this.

35:53

And I want to build that trust and that emotional safety.

35:56

And one of the first things I recognized was and

35:59

this will sound so silly now but I wasn't exactly

36:02

sure how to put the boxes together and I found

36:05

myself wanting to go ask my wife who had bought the boxes

36:08

off of Amazon so then I'm sure she doesn't know either and I go back to what

36:13

I said earlier I'm an adult human being I think I can figure out a box with

36:16

a tape gun and lo and behold I did but then I found myself wanting to do that

36:20

again over and over with hey what's the best way to wrap these in bubble wrap

36:23

again she's never wrapped flat screen TVs in bubble wrap to put put them in moving boxes either.

36:28

So then I found myself doing it even though I didn't want to.

36:31

And I found myself wanting to just say, hey, you know what? It's been a late night.

36:34

I have to go to work tomorrow and leave that with her. But then I recognized,

36:37

man, that is part of what it would feel like to be in a relationship with somebody

36:42

that is emotionally inconsistent. That, hey, I'll take care of that until I can't.

36:45

And I know earlier I talked about a capacity issue, but I was aware this wasn't

36:49

a capacity issue. This was a, I don't want to do this anymore issue. you.

36:52

So with that said, I was able to finish this project, thank her for all the

36:56

things she was doing, and go to bed. And it was one of my biggest challenges to not then share what a hero I was

37:03

to actually follow through on the thing that I could do and figure out how to

37:06

tape moving boxes together and wrap bubble wrap around flat screen TVs.

37:11

So I just thought that that was so fascinating and I learned so much about myself there.

37:15

And then, and just that discomfort, that desire for validation,

37:19

that wanting to be a little bit selfish of saying, okay, I know I said I would

37:23

do this earlier, but then I didn't manage my time well, so I need to put this on you.

37:27

And I, man, I just want to say I felt so bad because I know that those are things

37:31

that I've done in the past. And then there were also plenty of opportunities for me to cart out the,

37:36

one of my favorite his sayings as well of the, I don't know what I don't know.

37:40

And especially with regard to things like the moving process,

37:43

everything from interacting with a realtor in Arizona and a mortgage broker there.

37:48

And there were times where I felt like both of them, who I really enjoyed working

37:51

with, as a matter of fact, I want to have the realtor on the podcast at some

37:55

point, his name is Roger Banning and have him just talk about that whole experience.

38:01

What I thought was one of the biggest takeaways from that experience,

38:04

the part in Arizona, was working with people who were asking me questions about

38:09

things that I really didn't know, that I didn't even know that I didn't know.

38:12

I certainly didn't understand because even though they are doing their jobs

38:16

that they do on a daily basis, that was the first time that I had interacted

38:20

with a realtor or a mortgage broker in, again, 20-something years.

38:25

And I found myself having to, in one sense, step outside of my ego go and it

38:31

was okay for me to not know or not understand things.

38:34

I had to accept the fact that I wanted to sometimes put a pause in and say,

38:38

let me go Google that so I can sound smart. But instead just saying, hey, so help me understand, help me know what I don't know.

38:44

What are the right questions to ask? Or what are things that people typically ask in this situation?

38:49

And I found that the response from my realtor, Roger, and the mortgage broker,

38:53

Jeff, were both really, really helpful because I felt like at some point,

38:58

both of them were able to take a step back or a pause and say,

39:01

oh, okay, that's a really good question. A lot of times, here's what people are looking at, and maybe here are the questions that people ask.

39:07

And I just really enjoyed that experience.

39:11

And it propelled me into whether we were talking to the people that we were

39:15

getting the moving van from, or people that were there to help literally pack the truck.

39:21

Hey, help me understand, what do you typically see here?

39:25

What's the the procedures, like what happens next? What do I not know that I don't know?

39:30

So I thought that was a tremendous opportunity for growth. There was some frustration as well.

39:35

And we tried to sell a lot of things on Facebook Marketplace.

39:39

And if you've already had experiences selling things on Facebook Marketplace,

39:43

then I think that you will absolutely love it.

39:46

I may not even need to say another word because I don't understand the psychology

39:51

of the people that are interacting with and selling and buying on Facebook Marketplace.

39:55

There were so many times. And then I went on to find there are memes,

40:00

there are shorts, videos, reels about this where someone would say, hey, is that available?

40:05

And I would say yes. And then they would never respond. Or there were a couple

40:09

of times where I would say yes, and they would say I'm on my way and they would

40:12

never get back to me, literally ever.

40:14

And my daughter, Mackie, had shown me one at one point that it was almost as

40:19

if somebody is driving by your house.

40:22

You've got something out on the driveway, maybe a garage sale.

40:26

They yell, hey, how much? And then you say, 10 bucks. And then they just speed off.

40:30

Or there was another one that we saw where somebody said, hey,

40:33

is this still available? And then you say, yes. And then they chuck their phone into a lake.

40:38

I don't know if it's the dopamine bump of the chase or just getting people to commit.

40:42

Admit I'm not quite sure are keeping your options open

40:45

and even at the frustration of

40:48

those that are trying to sell things but anyway there was we were

40:52

trying to get rid of a piano and those are really difficult to

40:55

move and then they need to be tuned and so I didn't

40:57

realize that the piano market on Facebook if you're looking for a piano check

41:01

out Facebook marketplace and most people are trying to give them away and we

41:04

were trying to do that and we ended up having someone that took it eventually

41:07

but there were a lot of people that would just come back and ask for there was

41:12

one one person asked for videos and can you take a video playing it and how

41:15

much is away and what are the dimensions and what are the, and I wasn't as engaged at that point,

41:20

but just then people just disappearing or one person went back and forth eventually

41:25

to finally let me know that they were willing to take it off,

41:28

off my hands for 300 bucks.

41:30

And that was a moment where I noticed that I still, I wanted to then stay engaged

41:35

with that person and then, and then make some snarky comment.

41:39

And then I realized, why? I mean, here's my opportunity for growth to just acknowledge,

41:44

accept that that happened and move on. And what was interesting is that person tried to reach back out and I almost

41:49

feel like just poke the bear a little bit more.

41:54

And because I thought, okay, maybe that is the way that they get somebody so

41:56

angry. And then I don't know, then the person says, come find,

41:59

come take it. But I'm only giving you 150. I don't even know.

42:02

So those, I think, were really these moments of, well, check that out.

42:05

That happened. not beating myself up, not ruminating, not feeling like I did

42:09

it wrong, that that was just the way that it happened. I will also.

42:14

Acknowledge that I led a little bit with this in the podcast today,

42:17

but acceptance doesn't mean apathy. And that was with regard to podcasting, because I had every intention in the

42:23

world of even running best ofs or doing something to keep content coming out

42:28

there in on my podcast feeds for the various podcasts.

42:32

But I found that there were just other things going on a lot of things going

42:35

on. And so that acceptance just ended up being well, it just is.

42:39

And so I was accepting the fact that I wasn't having the consistency that I'd

42:44

always felt, not prided myself on.

42:46

But in the world of acceptance and commitment therapy, if I had a value of consistency,

42:50

then the yeah buts were, yeah, but maybe the podcast might be a rerun.

42:55

Maybe the podcast won't be something that is one of my current passions,

42:58

but it might just be a review of an article. But that was the situation where it was that first time that I've ever been me in that situation.

43:05

And there was that acceptance that I was unable to podcast.

43:08

And I was grateful that it didn't bring up some feelings and emotions,

43:12

but then that acceptance was, okay, so now as soon as I can get back on the

43:16

proverbial podcasting horse and ride, then let's do it. So that is what we are doing right now.

43:21

There were a couple of other things I thought were really fascinating and one

43:24

of those was just the experience of renting a truck.

43:28

We got a U-Haul and it got the biggest one and we had no idea if that was gonna be enough or not enough,

43:36

if we would have more space than we could ever imagine, or if,

43:41

what would we do if we couldn't fill, if the U-Haul truck was completely filled.

43:45

But even better was when I got home on a Friday, and I was supposed to go pick

43:49

the truck up in the town that I was living at,

43:52

let's just say one o'clock, I get home at noon, and then I have a message that

43:56

had come in at, I think, 1030, and they said that, hey, you're a U-Haul,

43:59

and we're not sure why, but it's about an hour and 15 minutes away. Okay.

44:03

And we felt like we were a bit on a time crunch, and I called them back.

44:07

And that was one of those times where I wanted to be really angry and really frustrated.

44:11

And I had it on speakerphone, and my wife and daughter were in the room.

44:14

And I was just saying, I don't even know, I'm not even sure what happened,

44:17

because the reservation says here, four miles away from my house, and it's a long way away.

44:23

And he was saying, well, we'll give you a fuel credit, or we'll...

44:25

And I was saying, I appreciate that, but I'm just not really sure what to do with this information.

44:30

They transferred me to corporate. Turns out there was a truck really close by

44:33

and I was able to go get it. And I was so happy that I didn't lose my mind or react, get overly aggressive

44:41

or any of those things that I really don't feel are in my nature.

44:43

But again, that was the first time that I have been ready to pack up and move.

44:48

And we were so prepared or we felt like we were prepared. So I was grateful

44:53

for that. But then we get the truck filled that night.

44:56

And even that was a really fascinating thing because we were able to get a couple

45:00

of movers that are recommended by a U-Haul. And they did an amazing job.

45:04

They said we will take over. They packed the truck just so well.

45:08

But at one point, my wife and daughter had gone out for food.

45:11

And then one of the movers comes up to me and says, hey, so it's starting to get a little tight.

45:16

So you might want to prioritize what's left. left. And I called my wife and

45:21

I'm saying, okay, here's what they're saying. And we need to prioritize. And I'm not even really sure what that means.

45:27

We've got still a fair amount of things here. And then at that point,

45:31

I say, hey, I'll just take care of it. And then I, in essence, hear the rolling door of the truck come down and they said, well, she's full.

45:38

And we still had a lot of things. So I wanted to be frustrated.

45:42

I wanted to be mad. I wanted to even say silly things like, but you guys said

45:46

you thought it would all fit, but they didn't know until they knew.

45:49

And, and that just was, it wasn't anybody's fault.

45:53

And at that point, then we had a decision to make. We were supposed to pull

45:55

out the next morning and leave and drive, but we had a lot of stuff left.

46:00

So we rented a second truck, a smaller one, and had to go pick that up the next

46:05

morning, spend the next day loading, got out at a much later time.

46:08

But there was so much just, this just is.

46:11

We need to take action. And I realized how often maybe in the past when you

46:16

just do feel defeated or this is that part where, okay, but it's your opportunity

46:21

to make a decision and it might not be validated right away.

46:26

And I'm not saying again that it's the wrong decision or the right decision, but it's the decision.

46:30

And now let's see how that works. So I think it turned out being the right decision

46:34

because we were able to get the truck loaded and leave, but we didn't know.

46:39

And we didn't know until we were in that experience.

46:42

So I could never imagine or guess what I would do in certain situations until

46:45

I'm in them, which I think is an interesting thing in couples therapy,

46:48

where you'll often have people that when they're trying to make a point,

46:51

they'll say, how would you like it if? And I almost want to jump in and say, okay, let me take that one.

46:56

The person's going to say, well, they wouldn't care or it wouldn't be a big deal to them.

47:01

And it's because you really don't know what something's like until you are experiencing it.

47:05

And this is the point where even somebody that is trying to understand or trying

47:10

to be empathetic will never quite fully understand what that experience is like

47:14

for you. Let me wrap this up. Life's unexpected twists and turns, they are obstacles and they are challenging.

47:21

And oftentimes they aren't fair, but they really are opportunities to learn

47:26

and to grow and to redefine your path.

47:28

And I think that one of the best things that one can do is even just start to

47:34

think of things in your life this way of, okay, how can I react to this?

47:39

Or how can I show up different? Or what are the things that this can help me or teach me?

47:44

And I understand that some people are in marriages and relationships where there

47:48

is a lot of control and that can feel like you don't have a say. And I would love to...

47:55

To see you, if you're in that situation, be in a position or have the tools

47:59

or be in a relationship where you really can express yourself and be okay,

48:03

even if there is invalidation. But I know that some people are not in that position. And that might even be

48:08

a lot of the people that are listening to a podcast like The Virtual Couch who

48:11

are trying to learn all they can about mental health.

48:14

And if that's the case, just know that even just starting to be aware that every

48:19

opportunity is an opportunity to self-confront or grow, or even just to be able

48:22

to say, okay, I would would love it if I could take this different step just

48:26

to be able to see what the yeah buts are that come up in your mind.

48:29

But ultimately, you're going through life. First time is you.

48:32

Check that out. These are decisions you're making. They're not wrong.

48:35

They're not necessarily right. They just are. And they will guide you to the next opportunity that you have to make a decision.

48:42

So the decision I'm making now is there's more to that article,

48:46

but I'll throw a link to that that in the show notes.

48:49

And I think that it would be good to go read more of that because he does talk

48:55

a little bit more about things like procrastination and just more about the

48:58

concept of change being just as good as rest.

49:02

But if you have experiences that you have grown through that I would love to

49:07

hear them, I would love to do a follow-up episode and share people's stories.

49:09

So reach out, let me know about those experiences where you had to deal with

49:13

some extreme discomfort, but had that maybe helped with an awakening.

49:17

And I've saved this till the end, but if you're still listening,

49:21

I did put out on my newsletter on one of the podcasts last week that if I can

49:26

help, if you resonate with the things that I teach or the methods that I use,

49:30

there might be an opportunity to work together.

49:32

So I would encourage you to shoot me an email, tell me more about your situation.

49:36

And if that is something that you're looking for, some counseling,

49:39

coaching, that sort sort of thing, then reach out to contact at tonyoverbay.com

49:43

and tell me a little bit more about your situation and yourself.

49:46

All right. Thank you for your patience. Thanks for hanging in there.

49:50

And I appreciate all the support that has been there through the first 419 episodes.

49:56

And here's to another 400 and something more to go.

50:00

All right. Have an amazing week. Taking us out per usual, the wonderful,

50:03

the talented Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful. We'll see you next week on The Virtual Cat.

50:07

Music.