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1:05

I need supports to have to clear

1:07

the rung.

1:09

Stand up and walk. Now Hello,

1:11

and welcome to the

1:12

watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I

1:14

am an editor at the ringer dot com,

1:16

and joining me on the other line.

1:19

He's what a reckoning sounds like.

1:21

It's

1:22

a degree world.

1:24

This is a great day for us, Chris. Whoo.

1:26

Young Fiona Shaw on the

1:28

mite.

1:29

What's up, baby? This is

1:31

really good. It's really good day.

1:34

for two, like, really foundational reasons

1:37

on the watch podcast. You know,

1:39

I feel like for people who've been listening even from

1:41

the Hollywood Prospectus Days, they

1:43

know that we like

1:46

three things. Right? Yeah.

1:48

We like talking chicken,

1:51

chicken recipes, cooking the bird, whatever

1:53

you wanna call it. Yeah. Nervous bird,

1:56

do you like the

1:58

films and writing of Tony Gilroy?

2:01

Mhmm. who has written who

2:03

wrote the porn movies, wrote and directed, born

2:05

legacy, the movie that inspired, but we

2:07

are we have a dialogue from it. Our title

2:09

is being Yeah. Yeah.

2:11

Michael Clayton, one of our all time favorites.

2:14

And we love talking

2:16

about Star Wars in a very specific way

2:19

that creates a a

2:21

straw Jedi, if you will,

2:24

saying if only this

2:26

multibillion dollar franchise with

2:29

stakeholders in every corner of the planet

2:32

could do something that we specifically,

2:35

two men in their middle forties,

2:37

want.

2:39

And we

2:40

didn't talk about chicken today, Chris, but

2:43

else we got. We

2:45

finally got and I can't believe it.

2:47

So

2:47

we're talking about Andor today, which goes

2:49

up that's first three episodes are being released on

2:51

Wednesday, late late

2:54

Tuesday, early Wednesday, or however you wanna, like,

2:56

look at it Wednesday and I We

2:58

hope that everybody gets a chance to listen to those

3:00

episodes. Katie and I are gonna talk a little bit generally

3:02

about Andor for about twenty minutes, and then we

3:04

have an interview with Tony Gilroy. who

3:07

is the creator of Andor, and he talked

3:09

about more

3:10

generally, I think. So there's not a lot of

3:12

spoilers, although there is some talk about

3:14

details of the episodes. I

3:16

would highly recommend everybody watch

3:18

these episodes. Also, I would highly recommend

3:20

you watch all three. They are essentially one

3:22

big story. One of the sort of

3:25

Amazing little flourishes of this series,

3:27

I think, is gonna be the way that they structure

3:30

blocks of episodes to be micro

3:32

stories that connect with one another. For

3:34

anybody who doesn't know, Andor is a prequel

3:36

to Rogue One. It's set about five years before

3:38

the action of that movie. And

3:40

Andor itself is planned out at least to

3:43

go for twenty four episodes. There's a twelve episode

3:45

first season. And as has been reported,

3:47

Tony Gilroy and and the whole team are going back

3:49

into production in November on the second season of

3:51

twelve episodes. So it's basically a

3:53

twenty four episode story leading up

3:55

to the moments of Rogue One, which itself led

3:58

up to the beginning of a new hope, the

3:59

first Star Wars film.

4:01

I think any I both loved rogue one?

4:04

I think really loved the teaser trailer.

4:07

We were like, the teaser trailer is everything

4:09

we've ever wanted. And I think Rogue One

4:11

is probably my favorite of the

4:13

more recent iteration

4:14

of Star Wars in terms of the movies. I think

4:16

that between that and the Ryan Johnson movie, it's

4:18

like, kinda equal for me, but rogue one

4:20

was, like, in terms of seeing

4:22

the world of Star Wars as this

4:24

dirty place, as this rundown

4:27

place, as this place on the

4:29

precipice of rebellion was

4:31

just like I think I had always been curious

4:33

about what precipitated the events

4:35

that led to the original trilogy, not in

4:37

the political sort of

4:39

senate way that happens in

4:41

the prequel movies, but in,

4:43

like, the on on the ground

4:45

among the real people out there if there

4:47

were some. I was always curious. What

4:49

did it take to do this? You know, if you were gonna

4:51

actually tell this story. For

4:54

a long time, you know, you and me have been kind

4:56

of, I think, butting our

4:57

heads up against a reality, which is that we

4:59

are getting older. Right. And

5:01

that a lot of the content that we talk

5:03

about, whether it's TV or movies,

5:06

is pitched towards an audience

5:08

that at least could theoretically be

5:10

of seven year olds, if not,

5:12

ten, twelve, thirteen year olds. And that, you

5:14

know,

5:14

I

5:16

I don't think it's a fair criticism of the

5:18

shows that we talk about because we're like, god,

5:20

this was kind of like the the

5:22

sort of need to have something happen every ten minutes.

5:24

Feels like it's like to keep people from,

5:26

like, switching over to their phones or

5:28

something like that. But a lot of the sort

5:30

of tips that have been coming up

5:32

in a lot of, like, franchise IP storytelling,

5:35

I think, some of the reason why we've butted up

5:37

against it is because it's not

5:39

really made for us. You know,

5:40

even if we claim fandom of it

5:42

from our childhood or from are adulthood

5:45

even. It's not really made

5:47

for, like, older

5:49

people to enjoy. And I don't know

5:51

whether that's gonna be the kind of thing that they

5:53

wanna put on the poster. But

5:55

Tony Kilroy has made a Star Wars show for

5:57

adults. It is

6:00

complicated. It

6:01

is dense. It

6:03

is dark.

6:04

It is

6:06

written to within an inch of its life. It is

6:08

honestly one of the best written pieces

6:10

of TV that I've seen in quite some time.

6:12

And it

6:14

is about people

6:16

on the margins of society deciding that

6:18

enough is enough and that they're gonna do something about it.

6:20

But the way that they do something about it it

6:22

might turn some people off. It might turn

6:24

some stomachs. It might not be the kind of

6:26

shit that you're used to seeing in Star Wars

6:28

stories where it is AAA

6:31

very moral universe for the most part.

6:33

And I and I can't really comment on the

6:35

the animated series because I haven't seen them, but

6:37

at least the shows that we watch the movies

6:39

that we watch is even though they're about

6:41

bounty hunters and, you know,

6:42

essentially,

6:43

summarize out there. Like, there's a lot

6:46

of, like, sweetness. Yeah.

6:47

Well, I think it's something that is that that

6:49

really not to cut you off, I apologize,

6:51

but that, like, that separates Star Wars from some of

6:53

the other large IP stories

6:55

is that it's a mythology. And

6:58

at its best, it leans into

7:00

that. There are it's the hero's journey. It's the Joseph

7:02

Campbell stuff. Right? It's about

7:04

the boy in the edge of the universe becomes

7:06

the superhero that saves it all. And there's

7:08

It's also about a a royal family of

7:11

wizards to paraphrase anybody. Exactly.

7:15

And but if there's always

7:17

been other stuff on the margins and

7:19

the end we've always been curious

7:21

and I didn't think we had much we

7:23

didn't have a new hope, we didn't have hope at all,

7:26

that that storytellers would

7:28

be allowed to fully explore those

7:30

margins. And I

7:32

just wanna when

7:33

you say the first show for adults,

7:35

I agree. But I don't that

7:38

doesn't mean it's like an NC seventeen

7:40

series. Like, I think that kids

7:42

of, like, a certain age, like, eight, nine, ten, eleven

7:44

can watch this show you know, I

7:46

know Chris, you spent a lot of time listening and

7:48

maybe even relistening to the solo pod I did

7:50

about Blueie. But, like,

7:52

kids programming doesn't

7:55

need to just be dumb.

7:58

It doesn't need to be repetitive. I know. Yeah. And I

8:00

know you weren't saying that. I just mean that this is

8:02

thoughtful It is creative

8:04

and also

8:05

funny in

8:06

a way that I didn't know but always

8:09

secretly hope Star Wars could be.

8:11

And it is thrilling

8:13

to watch, this is one of the

8:15

best new shows of the year easily, at

8:17

least through we've seen we've seen four.

8:20

it does things that I maybe only a veteran

8:22

screenwriter could do, which is say,

8:24

well, what has this always been about? Well, it's

8:26

always been a story about political rebellion. But

8:30

mostly focused on magic wizards. You

8:32

know? And Yeah. Okay. So

8:34

what is a rebellion? What causes people to

8:37

do that? What jobs do they do? what

8:39

do they come home to at night? You

8:41

know? And and this kind

8:43

of specificity and storytelling is

8:45

so important and it's so rare particularly in

8:47

a lot of the IP stuff that we talk about.

8:50

And what's beautiful in thrilling about this

8:52

show is that that specificity is

8:54

shot through the entire thing. one of my

8:56

favorite things about our conversation. There are two my two favorite

8:58

things about our conversation with Tony,

9:00

not

9:00

to, you spoil

9:01

any of it, is one, how

9:03

much attention he gives to the show's production

9:06

designer. Because when you watch this, you'll be

9:08

like, wait, they could have been doing this the whole time.

9:10

Yeah. I know. not

9:11

just spending money because it's like did did they spend

9:13

three billion dollars on this, but it it is

9:15

essentially, like, everything you see for the most

9:17

part is something that they built. And

9:19

it and and with thought, if

9:21

you

9:21

work, you know, when you see these, like, all

9:23

white security rooms or you think about

9:26

the things that we've seen before visually with

9:28

the empire, Okay. Well, what does the rest of the

9:30

building look like? Who are the rest of the people who

9:32

work there? What's life like for them when they work there?

9:34

And that's the kind of thing that you can only come up with if

9:36

you are fully in mesh

9:38

with a team who's creatively building something from

9:40

the ground up. The second thing that I love

9:42

about our interview, and you'll hear us realize

9:44

that as it's happening in real time, that

9:46

Tony's in his late sixties. He has fucking

9:48

seen it all and done it all. Right? Like, he has been

9:50

so jaded about stuff. He's worked with great things.

9:52

Great filmmakers had great experiences and also

9:54

just been in the teeth again and again.

9:57

He's thrilled. He's

9:59

excited and overjoin, and that's also

10:01

here in this show. Right? Like,

10:04

we realize they're doing things story wise

10:06

with and we didn't even mention Diego Luna as the star of

10:08

the show. It's Cash and Andor. He's a fucking

10:10

great. It's

10:12

like, oh, they're really gonna do this type of

10:14

story. Yeah. They're really gonna give

10:16

us a western or a heist movie

10:18

or a character based

10:20

origin story. They're gonna give it not

10:22

just give it to us, but give us a plus versions

10:25

of it. And oh, by the way, it's Star Wars

10:27

two. Cool. Right. Right.

10:28

There is probably a lot in this

10:31

show to to sort of glean if you are

10:33

really steeped in the the

10:35

lore of if you've watched Clone Wars, if

10:37

you've watched, you know, like some of the animated series,

10:39

if you've read the books, if you've spent a lot of time

10:41

on Wikipedia, which I am now I

10:43

count myself among the people who did it. I

10:45

realized, you know, like I had never really felt compelled

10:47

to do that when I was watching Mandalorian.

10:49

I was

10:50

kinda like, this the way that they're telling the story,

10:52

I

10:53

would sign

10:54

glacial by any means, but it is very,

10:56

like I think that it's strip away

10:58

everything and get it down to like what is the

11:00

bare bones of like a father

11:02

figure protecting a child? And

11:04

what happens as like these

11:06

different up stacles present themselves. And then

11:08

I think to the Mandalorian's

11:10

great commercial benefit, but

11:12

possibly to its

11:14

detriment in terms of, like, its

11:16

independent storytelling and identity.

11:18

It has

11:19

now become a little bit more about the

11:21

force. It's got become a little bit more

11:23

about its relationship two characters

11:25

on the animated series and everything. But I we

11:27

don't even have I I it's not really I'm not

11:29

really trying to compare andor to

11:32

Mandalorian as much as I am, like, You can

11:34

watch andor.

11:36

And I honestly think that if

11:38

you like the wire, you will like

11:40

this show. Yeah. This is

11:42

so bold. And I think the people

11:44

at Lucasfilm should be commended for it honestly.

11:46

Like, we ding them a

11:49

lot. But it's, you know, and and I think

11:51

that's deserved, and I think that this is worth

11:53

this is what we keep saying we want from these

11:55

companies. It it is. There

11:57

are no kids. There are no Jedi.

12:00

It's

12:00

not that. And

12:01

yet somehow it's still Star Wars. Does that mean it's

12:04

for everyone? No. But

12:06

I think you need that kind of diversity to

12:10

sustain something for years or

12:12

decades. I mean, it's a it's a

12:14

bold marker you know, and and one

12:16

that I would be excited to hopefully support,

12:18

you know, that's why we were excited about

12:20

it before we saw anything. And then you realize,

12:23

you know, they filmed this in the UK because of COVID stuff

12:25

and then, oh, that means they have

12:27

access to the best stage actors in

12:29

the world. All of whom were gonna fill these

12:31

parts on the margins and they me believe in every

12:33

random character on a shuttle bus as someone

12:35

who's lived a full life. Oh,

12:37

cool. Okay. So we're gonna be on another

12:39

planet. Does that mean that someone just flies

12:41

in and there's a squid guy there and they fly somewhere

12:43

else? No. On this planet, when

12:45

they do they tell time by

12:47

a dude with hammers ringing a giant

12:49

And Yeah. Yeah. That's a

12:52

that's a decision. That's culturally

12:54

something new. Okay. And also on this

12:56

planet, like, you know, when

12:58

you land your ship, it might

12:59

be, like, two miles from where you need to

13:02

be. Yeah. And you gotta slap. Yeah.

13:04

If you gotta get off this planet,

13:06

you may have to negotiate with a guy

13:08

who

13:08

will give you a higher price because you can tell

13:10

that you need off the planet faster and all those

13:12

things that kinda go along with, like,

13:14

the urgency of the moment. We don't have to get too deeply

13:16

into the plot. I did wanna you know, you were talking

13:19

about some of what Tony talked to us

13:21

about. And I

13:21

just wanted to point out, like, so

13:24

I think if if you're like, oh, you gotta watch

13:26

the first three and people might just be like, well, then why isn't it

13:28

just one long episode? And that's a

13:30

perfectly fine question. I think if you could say

13:32

anything about the episodes that we watched,

13:35

it's that the

13:37

episode cuts, like the way that they

13:39

are structured within themselves, while

13:41

very digestible because they're between thirty

13:43

and forty minutes. aren't

13:46

necessarily like cliffhanger moments. There

13:48

are more just like commas,

13:50

you know, before the rest of the statement.

13:52

Well, one of the things that's been bugging us over the last couple

13:54

of years. I think as we've watched, obviously,

13:58

this day lose of stuff come into

14:00

streaming television, and

14:02

the

14:02

ways in which people seem to

14:04

sometimes feel the need to pad

14:06

story to get to

14:08

fifty five minutes or ten episodes

14:10

or even if it's six episodes, you're

14:12

like, did it because this would have been three. You

14:14

know? It's essentially, like, we're always

14:16

asking, like, what was needed and what

14:18

was what was sort of added

14:20

for for sort of like purposelessness.

14:22

I think

14:23

that's a word. Tony

14:24

Gillery in the interview we did with him

14:26

talked a lot about his training as somebody

14:29

who is stuck in this oh, it's the prison

14:31

cell of a hundred and twenty eight pages because

14:33

that's what a feature script generally is

14:35

is is sort of

14:36

around. And I would imagine that the

14:38

first three episodes of this show are about a

14:40

hundred and twenty pages, somewhere

14:42

around there. And in that, they are

14:44

a fucking masterpiece. the

14:46

thing kind of art. That happens at the end of

14:48

three, which he

14:49

has been building towards in such

14:52

a idiosyncratic somewhat

14:54

unique way where essentially these flashbacks that

14:56

are happening in another language that we are

14:58

not privy

14:58

to, what

15:00

people are saying, But

15:01

the broad strokes of the relationships

15:03

that get developed and the action that you

15:06

see builds up to a

15:08

relationship that really is only on

15:10

screen in the present moment for

15:12

about a minute. And

15:13

that's the one between Fiona Shaw's Marva

15:15

character and Diego Luna's

15:17

Cassian. But the emotional

15:19

payoff at the end of three

15:21

is as significant as anyone that I've

15:23

seen in Star Wars. Yes.

15:25

III totally agree. totally agree.

15:27

And in your point about movies, I mean, he's

15:29

still a movie maker. Like, as far as we

15:31

understand it, these two seasons

15:34

basically, we have three episode arcs and then it jumps forward

15:36

in time and we meet some new characters and we move to

15:38

a different location. So they're meant to

15:40

be digested this way, which I love. I

15:42

also just really wanna say, this show

15:44

stands on its own. At least so far, we just we

15:46

love it. We're so excited about it.

15:49

but I also feel like it I hope it puts

15:51

this this town cue

15:53

cue the quotation marks this town

15:55

on notice. It's

15:57

super hard to, like, manage IP and

15:59

to,

15:59

you know, deliver deliverables and keep all

16:02

this shareholders, stakeholders

16:04

happy. And

16:05

I don't minimize the effort that every

16:07

person who's writing stuff and making stuff puts

16:09

into doing that. It's just it's hard.

16:11

It's hard. but you watch

16:12

the show and I feel like everyone should have a

16:15

fire lit under their ass to do better. Yeah.

16:17

It's not enough to have suits of armor

16:19

and dragons. It's just it's just

16:21

not. It's not enough to have people

16:23

be like, you remember me from the

16:25

movie? I was played by Capeland Chet then,

16:27

and now I'm spunky. That's not enough.

16:29

It's not enough. You know,

16:31

time and time again were introduced to

16:33

characters on the show, the way people used to

16:35

be introduced in movies, where you have

16:37

to be told something interesting about them to

16:39

care, and then you bucking would take a bullet for them

16:41

even though they might not make it twenty more minutes.

16:43

Every time we're introduced to a villain in

16:45

the show, or a hero or

16:47

we don't know, Tony

16:48

Zags. It's

16:50

surprising. You forget

16:51

how important that feeling is. and you'll

16:53

hear us talk about what Tony probably watch the

16:55

episodes by now. But

16:57

we meet Cashion's

16:59

main antagonist in the

17:01

series early on the first episode. and

17:03

it's funny. It's as funny

17:04

as anything else on TV this

17:07

week. And

17:08

that matters. It

17:10

just matters terms of someone who cares about a creative art

17:12

form. It's just really exciting to see that

17:15

point

17:15

made in major

17:16

major hundreds of millions of

17:19

dollars Star Wars Entertainment. And it -- Yeah. -- it makes me I bring

17:21

it up not to ding the other stuff because I did that on the

17:23

last podcast, and I'm sure I'll do it again on the next one. I'm

17:25

doing it to be like, look, it's possible. That's

17:27

the thing is that I

17:29

think it's hard to talk about Andor without comparing

17:31

it to other things obviously because it's within

17:33

the Star Wars universe. It's it's a

17:35

Disney plus show But all the things that

17:37

we have, like, sort of heard about,

17:40

say, actors going to Atlanta and not

17:42

really knowing what movie they're in. and just shooting

17:44

some stuff because it could be used here or it could be used

17:46

there or the copious amounts of green

17:49

screen work where they're just like, I guess I'll just stand in

17:51

front of this thing and pretend like,

17:53

I guess, that's a monster coming at me,

17:55

or I'm on the volume and they've just

17:57

sort of dialed up this

17:59

setting. And

18:00

and I don't mean to

18:01

say that that's fly by night. Obviously, like, I'm

18:04

sure, like, a ton of work goes into that in a in

18:06

a very specific way. And I'm sure there are all

18:08

sorts of challenges that go into, like,

18:10

managing fifteen different shows and movies and the Marvel

18:12

universe or the Disney universe or whatever.

18:14

But the idea that this guy

18:16

and his collaborators have been working on this for

18:18

three years is on screen.

18:21

Yes. Everything everything. Yeah.

18:23

Everything from the precision of the tempo,

18:25

the precision of the dialogue, the fact

18:27

that scene is dead. The fact that in every single

18:30

scene, when someone is talking, they're also doing

18:32

something because with the exception of

18:34

podcasting and even during podcasting, that's how

18:36

LifeWorks is like you're having a conversation with your

18:38

wife, but you're also looking for something in the junk

18:40

tour. You're having a conversation with

18:42

your boss, but you're also kind

18:44

of fidgeting with a pen or, like, you're tapping your shoe or maybe you're

18:46

trying to get them to go get coffee with you so that

18:48

you can change the environment. Like, the

18:51

movement the activity

18:53

is intrinsic to the character and it's intrinsic

18:55

to the dialogue, and everything that he does

18:57

has, like, a momentum.

18:59

So if you like Michael Clayton and you like Jason

19:01

Born and you like the idea that conversations are

19:04

what pushed story forward because

19:06

of their energy rather than their exposition,

19:08

think you'll

19:09

really respond to this. We're the

19:11

the industry that we cover and we talk

19:13

about and that we love is fractured. And

19:15

so we end up often talking about

19:17

two things that are just apples and oranges that actually

19:19

have nothing to do with each other. And I just bring this up

19:21

to say that we're recording this early

19:24

in the week And I saw some headlines today

19:27

about how a the mid

19:29

credit scene in Thor,

19:31

Love and Thunder, No one

19:34

was in

19:35

the same room. That Taika

19:37

was in LA

19:40

directing on monitors

19:42

the Russell

19:43

Crowe in one place and Brett Goldstein

19:45

in another place with a bunch of other people

19:47

on the screen trying to make sure the eye lines would line

19:49

up when they integrated it all in post.

19:51

And my

19:52

takeaway from that is, holy shit brought

19:55

up. That's

19:56

hard. So many people, so many

19:58

craftsmen and technicians and

19:59

good actors. worked really hard to

20:02

pull that off, and that is

20:04

amazing. That's really good work. That's

20:07

a completely different species

20:10

of work than what we're seeing here. Mhmm.

20:12

You know, that that was also the conditions or

20:14

whatever. I only bring it up to say that, like,

20:16

this is just It's old

20:17

fashioned. Yeah. It was like when you read about,

20:19

like, people making movies. I

20:22

don't know. Like,

20:22

kind of, like, in in the sixties and

20:24

seventies. And I I overstate it. I'm not

20:26

trying to be super hyperbolic. I won't be able to

20:28

watch it. But, like, the

20:30

investment

20:31

and immersion into

20:33

not only like the world and the war and

20:35

the myth and the whatever and the vocabulary and the

20:38

jargon, which there is copious amounts that we'll

20:40

talk about that net later episode. but

20:42

just also like how should

20:44

this feel for the viewer? Nicholas

20:46

Purtell's music, the cinematography, the

20:48

production design. The performance is all of

20:50

which seemed to be happening -- You six. -- on the

20:52

same show. It's like so

20:54

it's so well executed. We're

20:56

we're like, we're out of our minds for this show. We're gonna be talking

20:58

about it a lot over the coming weeks. But

21:00

both

21:00

because it's good on its own and because where it

21:03

slots into the conversation we've been having for

21:05

ten years is vital. And just also

21:07

wanna say before we get into our talk with

21:09

Tony. Obviously, Chris and

21:10

I really just wanna do a born legacy

21:13

legacy podcast. this

21:15

didn't feel like the time, although clearly we talk about it a

21:17

lot. So I hope that Tony will come back and do

21:19

that with us. But this is purely we're talking Star

21:21

Wars, we're talking Andor Yeah. So

21:23

please check this conversation out we had

21:25

with the creator of Pandora, Tony Gilroy, and we

21:27

will be back with you next next

21:30

week. This is the man who wrote, stand up,

21:32

and walk. It's unreal.

21:34

Stand up

21:37

and walk now. We are joined

21:39

by Tony Gilroy, the creator and

21:41

executive producer of andor. And one

21:43

of our favorite screenwriters, one of our

21:45

favorite storytellers. He is the writer of a long list

21:47

of beloved movies, and I'm sure some

21:50

more that he is incredible for, and he is

21:52

the writer and director of one of my favorite movies

21:54

full stop, the Born Legacy. Although I

21:56

hear Michael Clayton isn't bad either Tony,

21:59

Thank you for joining the

21:59

watch. It's my pleasure

22:02

to

22:02

be here. III anybody who's gonna get

22:04

behind board like is, yeah, I wanna be there.

22:06

I It's a That's

22:08

really amazing dude here. This is

22:10

the Internet's number one source

22:12

of born legacy propaganda. You are

22:15

very well guys are not doing a

22:17

good enough job right now.

22:19

Listen, we're ten years into our campaign. Yeah.

22:21

The rebellion takes time as our reverse

22:24

suggests. So Go ahead to build that hope, so I'll just keep

22:26

on going. Alright. Tony,

22:28

I wanted to start with, you know, we we

22:30

obviously, we read the the variety piece that

22:32

you did going leading into the release

22:34

of Andor next week or this week

22:37

when this is released. And

22:39

I was very struck by your

22:41

own private resistance that you were

22:43

kind of having to the idea of doing the

22:45

show that initially you had sort

22:47

of written this manifesto to Kathy

22:50

Kennedy saying, here's why we shouldn't

22:52

do it. But

22:53

if we were gonna do it, here's what we should

22:56

do. And

22:56

then that became the series that we get, this

22:59

astonishing work. So can you tell

23:01

me a little bit about your reluctance to

23:03

do the

23:04

show? Well, I

23:06

mean, part of it that

23:08

was, you know, having coming off rogue and

23:10

just not it wasn't just didn't

23:13

see my it had been a

23:15

really great experience, but it wasn't didn't seem like it was my thing exactly.

23:18

But but more I think

23:20

there were practical reasons that

23:23

money really wasn't there to make these kind

23:25

of shows at that point. I mean, it doesn't it's

23:27

not that long ago. Things have changed so incredibly

23:30

rapidly. But even six

23:32

years ago, five, six years ago. There

23:34

was no idea that you would do

23:36

a spend. Daddy had

23:38

someone spend four hundred and fifty million

23:40

dollars on a show, not our show, but

23:42

a show. was inconceivable

23:44

at that point. So the economics

23:46

didn't really line up. And the idea of how you would do an

23:48

economical Star Wars show

23:50

was sort of like, how do you do a, you

23:52

know, How do you do a cheap bond? You

23:54

know? How do you do it? So it didn't really

23:56

seem feasible, and I didn't really know what

23:58

they had in mind. III

23:59

feel like one of the reasons why we're

24:02

so excited and thrilled about this show

24:04

is because for, you know, ten years

24:06

now, I I should say, you

24:08

know, since born legacy really. We should just really only

24:10

use that as our Yeah. It's, like, really worth

24:12

the long begins. I got two years after.

24:14

It's a success. That was when we then

24:16

we got our first dose of chems. My god. We're

24:18

gonna take so much shit for this, but go ahead. Yeah. Go

24:20

ahead. It's great. We've been

24:23

basically talking on this podcast about

24:25

maybe it was a straw

24:27

man argument being like, why can't there be a

24:29

show in a preexisting

24:31

IP universe that also is just good

24:33

in its own right? And feel

24:35

like you have delivered on that. And I guess the question is

24:37

how did you navigate that

24:40

terrain, not in a sense of

24:42

opposition to the larger construct

24:45

that exists here. But in the conversations

24:47

you had with Kathy Kennedy or

24:49

the, you know, the historians of Lucasfilm

24:51

like Pablo, the people who are the custodians

24:53

of this legacy, how did

24:56

you interact with them and end up with

24:58

something that is respectful of

25:00

their patch, but also

25:02

very much a Tony Gilroy story that you

25:04

were interested in telling? I

25:05

mean, the easy answer is I came with a

25:07

lot of credibility after Rose.

25:09

you know, I had a lot of there was

25:11

a lot of goodwill for me after

25:13

a row. And and and my relationship

25:15

with Pablo is interesting because that's sort of

25:17

a shotgun marriage. And

25:19

you know, I'm not sure Pablo I'm not

25:22

sure what Pablo thought of me when he when

25:24

in the first our first bunch of

25:26

encounters should say Pueblo Adago is like

25:28

the the Jedi master. Yeah. If you

25:30

think of if you think of the easiest way to

25:32

think of Lucasfilm as is the Vatican,

25:35

really. and it really is the

25:37

Vatican, and then there's the Curia, you

25:39

know. And Pablo really is the, you know,

25:41

the cardinal of the of the

25:43

crypt there. And so but it

25:45

came with a lot of goodwill from rogue.

25:46

And I

25:48

had this manifesto

25:51

that I had sort of sitting

25:53

off, you know, four years

25:56

earlier about why I thought

25:58

it was sort of it wasn't a job

26:00

application or anything. It was kinda just a friend

26:02

in court Here's what you should

26:04

do. Here's what you shouldn't do. Here's what

26:06

what you might be thinking about doing is not

26:08

working for you. Here's what a show would

26:10

have to be like, I had was

26:12

a very radical idea. It's very much the show

26:14

we're making. And

26:16

I think also mean,

26:19

I

26:20

think people if they get in

26:22

business with me, they

26:23

kinda know what they're you know, what it kind of

26:26

is. I mean, I know all the people that are

26:28

there. So they kinda knew what

26:30

my expectations would be about what we would

26:32

try to do. So there was a

26:34

lot and also, let's be really honest.

26:36

You don't even though you say yes

26:38

that you're doing something, there's a

26:40

long there's a long four

26:42

play Tiptoe dance into the

26:44

moment of you know, we

26:46

can't turn back. Right. So there was a lot of

26:48

there was a lot of stops and starts along the way

26:50

and and feeling out and

26:52

you know, not really negotiations,

26:54

but just really just that

26:56

that that sort of dance that you go through when you're when

26:59

you're dealing with something complicated. Are we

27:01

talking about same thing. Can we get

27:03

the same thing? You know, I I

27:05

was curious, you know, you talk about your

27:07

relationship with Pablo and

27:09

this idea of there being AAA

27:11

curio of the Vatican of Lucasfilm. Are you

27:15

so fluent at when when after

27:17

coming off of rogue that you kinda

27:19

have a working idea of, like,

27:21

if I wanna describe something like this, this

27:23

is the vocabulary that I'm using, or

27:25

do you go to him and say, hey,

27:28

like, for instance, something that happens in the

27:30

first three episodes of of Andor's. Like,

27:32

Bix pretends like she needs a

27:34

piece of equipment, but is in fact sending a

27:36

signal to the nascent rebellion. You

27:38

know? And you ask him,

27:40

hey, what's a bending mesh?

27:42

Whatever

27:42

she's she's asking for, but, like, how do

27:44

you find, like, all the sort of

27:47

necessary plugs for the machine

27:49

that you're building when it comes to the

27:51

vocabulary, the jargon, and also maybe even

27:53

the history.

27:55

separate

27:55

things. I mean, the canonical period of

27:57

time that we're dealing with is

27:59

is one issue. And the variations

28:01

and the flexibility within that are

28:03

you can already see some of the places that you've

28:06

seen the show, you see how we're manipulating

28:08

some of that. So you don't wanna violate

28:10

anything that people have grown accustomed to or

28:12

or or accept this fact or whatever. But but

28:14

we're playing with that. So there's some issues of that.

28:16

That that's the larger issue. What's

28:18

happening on the calendar? And

28:20

that becomes in more ways. That's that's

28:23

more critical to the

28:25

second half that we start shooting in November. We're

28:27

coming the four years now

28:30

going into rogue. So there's a lot of canonical questions about

28:32

what what events happen where and who's where and what

28:34

do we have to or watch out for. When it

28:36

comes to the practical things that you're discussing,

28:39

I mean, it's sort of a combination. It's it's

28:41

the most overwhelming part

28:43

of the show, which has many

28:45

overwhelming features to it

28:47

is the fact that absolutely every

28:49

single thing that we do has to be

28:52

designed. So my first call on

28:54

everything, my primary collaborator

28:56

is Luke Hall, who's the production designer.

28:58

I he Luke and I from

29:00

the very beginning, before there was any other

29:02

writers or writers room or anything,

29:04

Luke and I had spent months, you

29:07

know, designing Pharex and designing different

29:10

things. Luke was in the

29:12

writer's room the first time we did it, the

29:14

first five, six day summit that we had the

29:16

whole time. He's my first call because

29:18

if you wanna say, I wanna do a Zoom

29:20

call in Star Wars, it's, well, what does it look does

29:22

it work? And what's a can opener look like?

29:24

You know, we wanna do a hospital or we wanna do

29:26

this or we wanna do a library? What's a

29:28

Bodega look like? before you can do any

29:30

of it, you have to we have to do it

29:33

all.

29:33

Everything everything has to be designed first.

29:36

So

29:36

there's that When you get to the other parts

29:39

that you're talking about, I would say that it's

29:41

a a mixture of decades

29:43

of jargon bullshit that

29:45

I have mastered you know, I'm a I

29:47

really, you know I'm a fan. It's okay.

29:50

Yeah. An accent

29:52

right lexicon of of my history

29:54

of jargon bullshit, you know, it

29:56

would be it would be a it would be a big

29:58

volume. So It's a polar

29:59

vortex of jargon bullshit. jargon

30:02

bullshit. And then some of it is oh my

30:04

god. You know, we need to know

30:05

what is the, you know, what we

30:08

need to know the details of rhodo

30:10

fuel for, you know, what are the

30:12

sifting processes and what are the sifting

30:14

refinery then then we go and then sometimes

30:16

they're stuff that they know.

30:17

Sometimes it's shocking what they don't

30:20

know. The rules have

30:22

changed since road. the rules on rogue

30:24

were really calvinists.

30:26

It was very, very, you

30:28

know, all we came to this, so we got people running up

30:30

to this set. You can't have that. You can't do

30:33

this. campaigning wheels. There's no paper. There's no

30:35

knives. A lot of stuff has

30:37

shifted in transit over time. And

30:39

so

30:39

and then

30:41

I mean, I think by the time you get to the end of the

30:43

when I mean, I

30:44

we'll have to follow-up on it. And the same

30:46

people I mean, you're gonna talk to when it's over.

30:49

you know, when you see twelve.

30:51

Yeah. I mean,

30:52

a lot of it,

30:53

we're inventing. We're

30:56

making Canada. We're making vast quantities

30:58

of IP. That's for sure. Massive quantities.

31:00

I I love the early

31:02

shout out to to Luke your production designer because

31:04

III wanted to specifically ask about that

31:06

because I think that probably all in agreement that the best art comes

31:08

with a sense of specificity to it.

31:10

And their moments in the first

31:12

few episodes of Andor that

31:15

really

31:15

moved me smaller moments

31:17

in ways that other I won't

31:19

name names of other big IP storytelling

31:22

hasn't because I felt the care in

31:24

consideration of every detail.

31:26

So when StoneScars character

31:28

appears for the first time when he gets on that shuttle

31:30

bus -- Right. -- to the

31:32

town, In

31:32

a moment, I felt I understood the

31:35

way that shuttle bus may have smelled and the

31:37

history of people on it and the conversations that

31:39

you overhear and were in a real

31:42

place. even though we're in a heightened universe and that continues

31:44

in a future episode when a a car pulls

31:46

up in front of essentially the Jay Edgar

31:48

Hoover building of the empire.

31:50

Someone thought about that building and what it would

31:52

be communicating. You know? And I and I love that there

31:54

was g g or you already say this,

31:57

such a close marriage early on

31:59

between the writing

31:59

and the visual. Yeah.

32:01

It should also I mean, also while we're

32:03

I mean, Luke is just look, you're

32:05

gonna be talking about Luke Karl

32:07

for the next you know, for the next thirty

32:09

years is one of the premier I mean, he's really

32:12

he's AAAAAAA mode start

32:14

like character here. I mean,

32:15

And can imagine how difficult it was

32:18

when our producers on of Wallenberg who's

32:20

just remarkable. And that was a

32:22

shotgun marriage. She'd been involved with one of

32:24

the previous things. And so we were put

32:26

together. I didn't know her at all. And

32:28

she was the woman who produced Chernobyl.

32:30

Mhmm. And we kinda liked each other right

32:33

away to been three years now we've been together and we're brother

32:35

and sister at this time. But you can

32:37

imagine how it was a

32:39

test on our we said, oh, we want the guy was the

32:41

production. We want the we want the

32:43

the the adolescent production

32:45

designer from Chernobyl to do

32:47

our show, to do Star Wars. That's

32:49

that's a pretty big that's a

32:51

pretty big ass. Luke is remarkable.

32:54

III don't think

32:56

people are I don't I don't even think you're

32:58

prepared for what you're gonna see, what he's

33:00

gonna do. But the other person

33:02

to mention is Moe and Leo, who's our visual

33:04

effects supervisor, his producer, TJ

33:06

Falls, they were on rogue. So we knew

33:08

that really, really well from rogue. We had a a

33:10

really good mutual respect. But

33:12

Moe and you know,

33:14

all of those, you

33:16

know, those CG shots and the

33:18

and the the times where we have to

33:20

let them take over are set extensions and

33:22

whatever. His taste and

33:24

the the taste of that department is

33:27

we we never doubt it. I mean, his framing,

33:29

we never have a shot that a camera couldn't

33:31

make. We don't have camera placement that there wouldn't be.

33:33

We don't ever use lenses that we don't

33:35

use. We don't show. We don't show off. We

33:39

he's absolutely integrated

33:41

into our aesthetic of

33:44

reality. And

33:46

and and it's it's the with

33:48

with Moan and and Luca and myself that

33:51

and the, you know, the

33:54

obsessive qualities that we all

33:56

share that make it I

33:58

wanna talk a little bit about the

34:00

the tone of the show because it

34:02

starts in a very interesting place with

34:04

this guy in a moment of crisis.

34:07

He's he's on the run before he's already on the run,

34:09

you know, and it it'll probably define this

34:11

character for the next couple of

34:13

years. And I gotta a text from

34:15

a friend who watched the episode, the first episode last night. And he said,

34:17

I knew that when Cassie and shot that guy

34:19

in the face, we were

34:21

in good hands. This is

34:24

a pretty gritty show.

34:26

It's not something that I

34:27

maybe even ever thought I would get from the

34:29

Star Wars universe, and it's so welcome.

34:32

Not because I craved more,

34:34

like, up close in personal murder in Star

34:36

Wars, but because I think it just

34:38

tells a different kind of story. What were the

34:40

conversations like with with

34:41

Lucasfilm and and among your collaborators about, like,

34:44

where are we pitching this show, tone

34:46

wise? Look, everybody dies

34:47

in the end.

34:49

I mean, what a great day to start? I mean,

34:51

that's not me. That that was baked in from the

34:53

beginning. Once the first time I heard that, I

34:55

was like, wow.

34:58

Really? gonna have the balls to do that all the way through, really? Alright.

35:00

I mean, that's baked in.

35:04

The

35:05

tone of

35:06

it Again, I had to say

35:07

that I just I everybody knew from

35:09

the start that I wasn't I wasn't coming

35:11

here to catch

35:14

a check. you know,

35:16

I wasn't come I wasn't here to change

35:18

my game or anything. I was just gonna keep

35:20

doing what I like to do, and

35:22

this is about rebellion. This

35:24

is about a war. This is about, I mean,

35:26

a really huge war with a thing called the

35:28

death star that's being built and all

35:30

these thousands and people that are

35:32

gonna die and It's just it's

35:34

intrinsically tragic and and

35:36

violent. And how could you not?

35:38

I mean, really, how could you not

35:40

do that? And so if we're gonna go down on the ground

35:43

with real people and, you know, and a guy

35:45

who's really a nobody who's gonna become this

35:47

sort of messianic savior of the

35:49

galaxy, I mean, to not

35:52

get as dirty as you possibly can

35:54

on Disney plus would be really

35:56

you would it just

35:57

would be a crime against storytelling

35:59

to not do that. So

36:00

speaking of storytelling, IIII agree the shooting in

36:02

the face was was very good. But

36:04

my preferred moment in the

36:08

pilot was the first time

36:10

we see Kyle Soller who's incredible

36:12

on the show. And he's talking

36:14

about the scene is about tailoring. And the

36:16

scene is about what he's done to his

36:18

uniform. And it's

36:19

so first of all, I was just levitating. I was like, I can't believe

36:20

there's room for this in this show. This

36:22

is our villain, and this is how we're meeting him,

36:24

our other villain, and this is how we're meeting him.

36:28

and we're learning so much in that moment. It's funny, but we're learning about resentment, we're

36:31

learning about status. And I just feel

36:33

like we've been either told

36:36

directly or implicitly for a lot of years that there just isn't room

36:38

for scenes like this in IP

36:41

storytelling, for character, for depth,

36:43

for text, and subtext, And

36:46

clearly, that's not true. Clearly, we've been

36:48

to Hungary for it than we realized.

36:52

And I just even just that as a

36:54

statement, less as a question, like, I would

36:56

just love your thoughts on that because every time you

36:58

do a scene, you introduce characters

37:00

in this, use ZAGG in the most delightful way that makes

37:02

me realize not how much we've missed your voice on our

37:04

screens, but just voice in general

37:06

in a lot of entertainment over the last

37:08

few years. I

37:10

the spent

37:11

what? Thirty five

37:13

years boxed into a hundred and

37:15

twenty eight pages.

37:18

you know, I mean, it's a stern

37:20

mistress, that number, and

37:23

every screenwriter who spent

37:25

time in in that that

37:27

plot of ground. It's like, why are you back? But an acre

37:29

and a half? You better this is what you

37:31

get. And so you're

37:34

watching me try to

37:36

take, you know, all of

37:38

the try to take all the things that I

37:40

know how to do and compression and all the all the

37:42

things I'm trying to do. but you're also

37:44

watching me a little bit luxuriating the

37:46

idea that I don't have to, you

37:48

know, deliver the pizza in an

37:50

and a half. every, you know, or or die So

37:52

you're watching somebody really no.

37:54

The the risk is that we've Scott

37:57

Frank, know, is a a really good friend of

37:59

mine. And and Scott, it's really

38:02

interesting when Scott had Godless for years.

38:04

Scottless was around and everybody

38:06

read Yeah. Lovely script and great. A little bit overstuffed and it

38:08

didn't really you know, and then all of a sudden,

38:10

bang, wow. It wants to be six

38:12

episodes, man. Wow. Look what happens when it when

38:14

that happens.

38:16

And, you know, Scott and I have had conversations about

38:18

about because we're the

38:20

older, you know, the older beaten

38:23

down screenwriters who, like, you

38:25

know, we we plugged that that hour and a

38:27

half, that one hundred and twenty eight, but one hundred

38:29

and thirty number for all that. And we learned all

38:32

the tricks that we would it'll be interesting to see

38:34

what happens when a whole new generation of writers

38:36

come along. We didn't have

38:37

the the rigor of that.

38:40

Now they have all this room? Did they get lazy? And

38:42

did everybody having cups of coffee? And nothing means

38:44

anything? And you have a lot of a lot of

38:46

waste space. You're gonna have wasted

38:48

space. But you're

38:50

watching me Just know that I have I have a little bit

38:52

more time.

38:52

What's the how did you

38:54

decide to structure not

38:56

only the way that the episodes were gonna be

38:59

delivered to So obviously, we're watching these first three

39:01

that come out. You've paired yourself

39:03

with Toby Hanes to to to write

39:05

and direct these episodes. And then going forward, I

39:07

think that you follow that that

39:09

sort of model going forward where there's a director and

39:11

a writer sort of paired for a block of

39:13

episodes for each one. And then I feel like

39:16

the three episodes that we've we've

39:18

gotten are both delightful

39:20

individual segments, but

39:21

also

39:23

funnily enough, fill out that one hundred

39:26

and twenty eight page script pretty well. It was

39:28

the first three episodes. How did you decide

39:30

to structure both the writing, but also the

39:32

production in terms of who is gonna be working on

39:34

what and how you were gonna be working on

39:36

these episodes? The

39:37

idea to do we at one point, we we

39:39

shifted around with different numbers of episodes. It was eight,

39:41

it was this, it was twelve. When we got

39:43

to the twelve, when I

39:45

finally did the you know, the brakes

39:47

on it. It broke up and it really it broke up in a good way.

39:50

And we had

39:52

the whole

39:52

whole kind of

39:53

story. You had the whole, you know, the

39:56

whole season kind of laid out in a

39:58

way while we went into the room. And

40:00

then you divvy out maybe how we

40:02

divvy out who did

40:04

what? Was a little bit to taste and a little

40:06

bit to who raised their hand on who wanted to

40:08

do what and and how much time it would

40:10

take to do them and how far they were

40:12

advanced before they before we pass them

40:14

over.

40:15

The I knew where I

40:17

was gonna end up, but I knew

40:19

at the last the last two episodes

40:21

were gonna be about when we came into the room I knew what the first three were about.

40:23

There was a one big soft spot in the

40:25

middle where that we really had to do some

40:28

figuring. And I

40:30

don't know if that really answers your question. I mean, you

40:32

get very good at I mean, Andy knows this. I I like to

40:34

know I like to know where I'm ending. I'm

40:37

I'm very big on outlining

40:39

and very big on organizing in a in a variety of

40:41

ways, lots of different lenses, a really super loose

40:44

lens, a a tighter one, a tighter one, a

40:46

tighter one, a tighter one

40:48

until finally, at the very end, you get really done in there. So I have a good

40:50

meter about where we're gonna go. And I

40:52

have big

40:55

big believer in sort of navigational scenes

40:57

or, you know, oh my god. I got this scene

40:59

here. That's gotta be here. Where does that go? And I got

41:01

this scene here. I got a great scene. That's

41:03

gotta go here. So I had a bunch of landmarks about things that had

41:05

to happen, and then it's where they fit, and and they

41:08

gradually pull into shape. And then part of its

41:10

production, you know,

41:12

it's it's Here's a director coming into a block of three, and this

41:14

needs to be this, you know, what you'll see when

41:16

you get to four, five, and six. I think you've

41:18

seen episode

41:20

four. Right. So you'll see you

41:22

obviously know where what's what's about to

41:24

happen in four because you see the beginning of it. So

41:26

four, five, and six will be that

41:29

event. and and the background to that event. And

41:31

then, you know, seven will be the

41:34

ramifications of that event, and then

41:36

we'll have a whole new block of things to

41:38

happen. It's I don't

41:40

know.

41:40

It has an organic

41:44

progression. One of things that I'm sure

41:46

you've

41:46

heard a lot among, like, generationally

41:48

among especially younger riders is that part

41:50

of the job now is you just figuring out a

41:52

way to kind of Trojan horse, if you will,

41:55

the things that interest you creatively

41:57

or emotionally or humanly as a

41:59

writer within these things that are

42:01

gonna get made. So if you have an opinion

42:03

about free will, can you do it with the

42:06

Guardians of the Galaxy or whatever because that's

42:08

the path to doing

42:10

it. And I I am

42:12

still really struck by the fact

42:14

that this is you working

42:16

within the biggest

42:18

of these universe is, but this is absolutely to our eyes at a Tony

42:20

Kilroy project. You know, your voice is in

42:22

it, what interests you

42:24

is consistent. And more than anything

42:26

else, I'm just really struck down by the fact

42:28

that we've lived with Star Wars for forty

42:30

five years now. We've known that

42:32

there was a rebellion but never once

42:34

been given a chance to be curious

42:36

about why politically, emotionally,

42:40

on the ground level economically --

42:42

Yeah. -- to have that rebellion. And

42:44

all of a sudden, you've given it to

42:46

us, you know, within this larger world.

42:48

I don't know if there's a question within those two points, but I just feels

42:50

to be like, this show is having me is getting me thinking about both of

42:53

them so deeply. Like, you were successful

42:55

in this navigation. to

42:57

give us something that we were really looking for without realizing

43:00

it. Just making

43:01

it real when you really get down. What

43:03

does it cost I'm always

43:06

fascinated. You know that as well. I'm always fascinated by

43:08

what people are getting paid and how do they get their how

43:10

do they do their rent? And what what does it cost?

43:12

And what you know, The economics of

43:14

things usually lead to really good

43:16

drama. I don't like people to get along. As you

43:18

know, I I really don't. It's I don't write a

43:20

lot of scenes where people are agreeing

43:22

about things. And I

43:24

don't know what the deeper question is

43:26

there. Other than that is,

43:29

I Trying to bring it's

43:31

been it's been interesting on the junkets, particularly beforehand before

43:33

people saw anything to sort of

43:35

say, well, you know, I

43:38

I didn't change my game to come here. IIII

43:41

I'm bringing my thing into

43:42

this and it's not

43:45

It's not even that it's much

43:47

more radical for me that the the

43:49

scale of it and the size

43:51

of the canvas and the breadth of the

43:54

opportunity than it is that it's Star Wars. I

43:56

mean, I'm not trying to make a I

43:58

mean, any

44:00

parallels between war and peace or me and

44:02

Tolstoy in any say, but

44:04

it is like this is

44:06

instead of writing a bunch of

44:08

short stories, I get to write a novel now, and

44:10

it takes place, you know, with

44:12

a war that's coming and huge

44:16

consequences. And

44:17

the natural the natural untouched

44:20

place that this is the people on the ground and the regular

44:22

ordinary people that are about to

44:25

be

44:25

buffeted by that, and you gotta

44:27

get down there with them. You know, I one of

44:29

the things I adore about your writing is the

44:32

density of it. and

44:34

the idea that you can be watching a scene

44:37

and

44:37

know what it's about even if you

44:39

don't know what people are saying all the time.

44:41

and that that obviously comes across in

44:43

Andor. The other thing that really jumped out at

44:45

me though is that the characters are

44:47

always doing something in these scenes.

44:49

Like, with these very dense conversations about

44:51

history or what person what a person owes

44:54

another person financially or what

44:56

there may be

44:58

familial relationship a romantic

45:00

relationship is or where they're going or what they're

45:02

doing. It's always happening when someone's like,

45:04

I gotta go to work. I'm coming

45:06

from I wanna go to the bar after work. What are you doing? Where are you

45:08

going? Where's this person? The

45:10

amount of activity that's going on is almost

45:12

in itself

45:14

like a density of its own. How important was it for

45:16

you to show these people basically alive

45:18

rather than person walks into

45:20

room, sits down, has five minute

45:22

conversation with other character and then leaves thus giving you

45:25

information. I mean, you're always

45:27

I don't know how many scenes

45:29

I've written in the last few

45:32

decades. I mean, you write out then this really

45:34

is scene work is what this really is. That's

45:36

what it's scene work. And

45:38

you're just every time you're sitting down, you're going

45:40

like, okay. What's how can I make

45:42

this different than any other scene I ever

45:44

wrote so that you're always looking for a

45:46

hook. Even in a even in the the most

45:48

basic scene, you're always looking for something that's

45:50

like, wow, what's what how can I how can I make this do something

45:52

that I never did before? So you've and

45:54

sometimes you get that a lot of times, maybe you

45:58

won't. But you're always

45:59

I mean, in action

46:02

sequences, that's

46:02

critical. I mean, that's

46:04

a place where we really every

46:07

action scene has to have a hook. We can't we're

46:09

not gonna there's not gonna phone in

46:12

any sequence

46:12

like that. There always has to be

46:14

a hook. But it it goes all the way

46:16

down. Man,

46:19

I like to keep it moving. I guess. I

46:22

mean, I wanna keep it but I wanna

46:24

keep it alive and moving and I want you to

46:26

yeah. That's

46:27

just the way, I guess.

46:29

That's just

46:29

the to the middle of the

46:31

end. That's the way. The way

46:34

because I know that shooting the

46:35

show in London had, you know,

46:38

made things complicated since you're in New York, and this

46:40

was during, like, a height of pandemic times. But

46:42

it does seem like it was phenomenal for

46:44

casting and for locations.

46:46

You get Fiona Shaw showing up early

46:48

and just being emotionally devastating,

46:52

like, in a relatively, you know, a handful of scenes.

46:54

And again and again, I find myself pausing and

46:56

I went like, Google, who is this British stage

46:58

actor? Who's

47:00

honing? this otherwise, you know, seen that in anyone else's hands, both acting

47:02

and writing wise, maybe would have been a

47:04

throwaway. It feels like it it was

47:06

ultimately really a boon for the production.

47:09

Oh my god. You know, because I was gonna I

47:12

didn't know what

47:12

I was doing when I first started. I I

47:14

went over there. I was gonna direct the first

47:16

three episodes. This is all pre COVID.

47:19

I hadn't really we hadn't tightened up the

47:21

scripts. We had scripts, and we had them all sort

47:23

of thing, but they they really weren't all they're

47:25

not at that place where they have to get. And

47:27

there's so many places scripts have get to

47:30

by the time they're ready to be actor

47:32

proof and director proof and production

47:34

friendly and everything else. But

47:36

I didn't know. And and

47:38

we started auditioning, you know, from my block and people

47:41

started coming in. I mean Kyle came in

47:43

and just, you know, I had

47:46

this up the cereal bits and, like, therein. It's just like,

47:48

oh my god. Alright. Well, let's

47:50

let's have that. And then Denise Goth came in.

47:52

And again, it was like,

47:54

I'd seen her in this play, that she was just extraordinary. And

47:56

she came in and she did this thing. I go, okay. And the

47:58

mommy started accumulating these people, and then

48:01

we had Stalin. And you

48:04

just you

48:04

start writing into them. Yeah. Right? And it's like,

48:06

wow. They can do anything. So you

48:09

it's literally, like, we're not playing on an

48:11

upright piano in the bass you're

48:13

on steinway grand. So maybe I should write

48:16

more, maybe I should use more of the

48:18

keyboard. You know? I mean, you really start to

48:20

go at it. Neenah Gold and

48:22

Martin we're we're casting for us. And like

48:24

I said, we have a hundred and ninety plus

48:26

speaking parts in the full twelve, in the first

48:28

twelve speaking parts. It's just amazing how

48:30

many packed we've seen. And we've seen them all. We we've got

48:32

them all. And I

48:34

had somebody I had somebody say to

48:36

me

48:38

as

48:38

we got into the process, so you're gonna be like a

48:40

pig and shit over there. He goes, because there's all these

48:42

actors over there. He goes, and all these

48:46

Brits, they you know, someone's been on coronation street for eight years or

48:48

anything like that, or they did this shitty

48:50

TV cop a cop show for

48:52

nine years. The Brits don't take them as they

48:54

don't they won't take them

48:56

seriously though. They're gonna be fresh to you and

48:58

they're gonna come in and they're great and you're

49:00

gonna love them and they're gonna do a great job for you

49:02

and you're not gonna be biased at all about

49:05

any of their prior history.

49:08

So my

49:08

god. I mean Nina and Martin,

49:10

that casting department is almost

49:12

our biggest special effect in the whole show. You know, we're starting

49:15

the second I decided to go another

49:17

twelve is, like, I said

49:20

Danina, a month or two, I'd be

49:22

like, are there any actors left? Yeah. Are you the chief employer in Scotland?

49:25

Exactly. It's amazing. The

49:27

talent pool is amazing. And

49:30

we also started instituting a thing where we would additional a

49:32

lot of people. And because everything is

49:34

self tape now in COVID and whatever,

49:37

We like, people wouldn't get the parts that

49:39

they came in from, but if they auditioned and we

49:41

really liked them, we made a reputatory company of

49:43

the people that we liked. So we had we

49:46

ended up with this huge bang. So a lot of

49:48

times when we got to the end, it's like, oh, we need

49:50

someone to do this or we need this person or that.

49:52

We go, oh, man. We look back to oh,

49:54

remember her? my god. She was great. She'd be great. And and then writing

49:56

into people. And it it's just

49:59

it's very exciting to

50:00

write for good actors. I

50:03

don't wanna take up too much of your time. I would be remiss

50:05

if I didn't ask a question that somewhat

50:08

connects and or to the board

50:10

legacy. So Without giving anything away about the fourth episode, there is scene

50:13

where Imperial Security

50:16

Services Officer gives

50:18

a speech And he asks everybody,

50:20

he's like, what do you think we do here? And they think,

50:22

well, we're intelligence for security. He's like, nope.

50:24

We are health inspectors. We are here to

50:26

make sure that, like, a virus

50:28

doesn't get in whether it's from the outside or the

50:30

inside. And it is very similar

50:32

to a speech that the Edward Norton

50:34

character gives in Born Legacy where

50:36

he's like, maybe you're in the

50:38

wrong meeting, we are here to find out

50:40

how much we have to cut to save the

50:42

patient. Do you find the

50:44

themes recurring over the course

50:46

of your scripts. You've written so many different beautiful pieces. You've

50:48

you're in all these different worlds. That's true.

50:50

No. There's there's no. III

50:54

try to There's time

50:55

that I've caught myself. There's things I've cut out where I realized I've gone too close to something

50:57

else before. I think it's amazing though. I think it's

50:59

so cool though. These ideas, like, kind of

51:01

rippling across the

51:04

the works. though. A little careful though. You don't wanna -- Yeah. -- you don't

51:06

wanna redo

51:08

completely. But yeah. No. It's there

51:10

is a parallel there. Yeah. Well,

51:14

look at Anton Lesser who plays that part, you know. I mean, oh, well,

51:16

God, we just see what he does along the way.

51:18

I know he really wasn't on my radar before

51:20

us other than a face and then you start

51:23

putting words in their mouth and you're like, can he say all this stuff?

51:25

And he's like, wow. He's just and you go, can he

51:27

say this? And then you start, my God, he

51:29

can I can

51:31

just you can really really

51:34

write in a different way when you know

51:36

that the players can play it.

51:38

One

51:38

of the great things about having the chance to talk to

51:40

you now. It's just it just seems palpable how excited you

51:43

are by this and how much this has taken

51:45

up of your life over the last few years,

51:47

now engaged. You you are with it.

51:49

And I I just have to ask just on a professional

51:51

level because the life of

51:52

a screenwriter, especially a movie screenwriter

51:54

can be solitary. Right? You're you're writing

51:56

a script, it it goes off, it

51:58

comes back to you

51:59

for rewrites. You've obviously made films as a director. You've been onsets

52:02

extensively. But this role

52:06

of like showrunner of a massive enterprise is slightly

52:08

different. And it's is it am

52:10

I reading correct into the Zoom screen that it has

52:12

kind of engaged you fully

52:14

in a

52:16

positive way?

52:16

whoa. He's saying to somebody this morning,

52:18

I mean, you you you know, eighty percent

52:20

of the stuff I've ever written doesn't

52:24

get made. I

52:24

mean, just hasn't. And probably the best stuff I ever wrote, never

52:27

got made.

52:27

And it's it's frustrating that and

52:29

that that that that weighs on you over

52:31

time. And and

52:34

and

52:34

there's times you get you fall inert and you don't work a lot or you

52:36

you get into a bad way and you haven't done anything

52:38

for a while or you're you're scratching around. And I

52:40

mean, God knows there's been plenty of

52:44

plenty of really fallow wasted, unhappy

52:47

years. Really, if

52:48

you add it all together, every

52:51

single thing that comes off the desk these days gets

52:54

made. We're shooting

52:55

at all. So you end up

52:57

you just end up, like,

52:59

becomes your assumption. If if it's coming out of here

53:02

and it's final, it's they're shooting, and it's gonna

53:04

be good actors and good directors, then I know what

53:06

the set is,

53:08

and it's So you get the confidence of

53:10

that. Right? Plus you also just get

53:11

in extraordinary

53:14

shape. I mean, you get

53:16

really, really in really good shape.

53:18

And, you know, I mean, when

53:20

you're writing, you're writing, and you're you're you're

53:22

you're in the groove. It's it's

53:24

it's just a lot easier to know that the

53:26

thing is gonna be real. It puts a lot

53:28

of pressure on it to know it's gonna be real. I mean,

53:31

you know when you did your show, I

53:33

know how you felt the night of the first day shooting because the first day

53:35

of shooting on your first thing, that

53:37

freak out tonight before my god, I'm never gonna be

53:39

able to change this again.

53:42

you're just out of here and be like, oh my god, I can never

53:44

change it again. They're gonna do it tomorrow. It's shocking how that feels. Well, I

53:47

don't I have the

53:49

subtailing now. Now it's like, oh my god,

53:51

this is happening. I know it's happening. It has to

53:53

be perfect from the starter if I'm

53:55

rewriting or or doing those final polishes

53:57

that things have to go through.

53:59

you know,

53:59

it's a it's a

54:02

very it's a very

54:04

benevolent wind at your

54:06

back to know that it's gonna be happening

54:08

tomorrow or a month from now. It

54:10

it really helps. Well We're the

54:12

beneficiaries

54:12

of it. Yeah. Seriously. I mean, in

54:14

a lot of ways, I feel like I've been waiting

54:17

like, forty years for something like this, but

54:19

it also feels so fresh and

54:21

so new. No. Because, like, I I think

54:23

the Andy and I always used to joke around, like, as

54:25

we were getting older in older and you would think back

54:27

to scenes in New Hope in Empire and you're like, why didn't you know what

54:29

it'd be cool is if they, like, looked around the

54:31

corner in that building and found out that guy who has to

54:34

clean up hallway after that.

54:36

And then he winds up being a part

54:38

of something bigger and The audience

54:40

wasn't asking

54:40

for that at that moment. Yeah.

54:43

You know, it's it's the audience's appetite. You have to

54:45

remember how sophisticated the audience has gotten now.

54:47

I mean, the audience is

54:49

just so much cooler in a way. I mean, I don't know if

54:51

people got smarter. It doesn't seem like the world has gotten any

54:54

smarter over time. But the one that's

54:56

been spending too

54:58

much time try to understand prestige TV. One place where people really

55:00

smart is when it comes to storytelling now.

55:02

I mean, they know how to tell. I

55:04

mean, refractive stories and flash,

55:07

and they know how to read a scene and they know when you're they know when

55:10

you're vamping. I mean, even people who don't

55:12

really know anything that's going on know when you're

55:14

faking it and they

55:16

know what what you're signifying when you mean something. So

55:18

it's I think the audience is

55:20

appetite for for you

55:22

know, for this scale and for the detail. And I I think

55:25

I I don't think that the ask was there

55:27

when people were doing the other movies. But but

55:29

you noticed that baked into Chris' question was

55:31

the implication that at five years

55:33

old. He wanted the Clifford Odesfir. No.

55:35

I didn't. strikes back. Not exactly.

55:38

No. And forty years ago, he was like, god,

55:40

this is Like, are these guys unionizing or what? What's going

55:42

on? I want the Ozu to Tommy Matt

55:44

View of the Death Star. Like, I said,

55:46

look for incredibly

55:48

aware he was. Right. I always bring up Ken

55:50

Luitch when I talk to these actors when they come on

55:52

the show. And I was like, look. because we I have these

55:54

conversations with every single actor when they

55:56

come on. hey, I know you signed an NDA. I don't care about the NDA. I'm

55:58

asking you personally as a personal request

55:59

because I'm talking about the show. And then I also have

56:02

to say,

56:04

Look, a lot of great actors come

56:05

in. You're a great actor. When you put the clothes on

56:07

or you have the blaster in your hand or you're

56:09

looking at a, you know, a creature

56:11

or you end up

56:13

Do what you always

56:15

do. Pretend you're in a Kenloach movie.

56:16

That's why you're here. Do not act

56:19

start and it's really hard and

56:21

and you get speech because we saw a lot of really great

56:24

people come in and and and and and

56:26

vamp around for a couple hours while they

56:28

they they played the outfit, you know. They

56:30

they lose their center. Yeah.

56:32

I

56:32

mean, it comes across. You can tell it it

56:34

just feels so lived in, so thank you

56:36

so much for making it. We can't wait

56:38

to watch the rest of this season.

56:40

would you consider coming back for the end of season? places I really know

56:42

I'm sort of pinpointing because, you know,

56:44

we're gonna finish at Thanksgiving. I don't

56:46

know how to go along, whatever,

56:48

but It's really and then again,

56:50

we'll come back in, you know, seventeen years from now

56:52

when we finish the other day. We have each other.

56:54

But, yeah, it's it's

56:56

not like selling a movie where

56:59

you could talk about it as a whole thing.

57:01

This is such a tease. Everything is a tease here

57:03

now to go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, and this is what

57:05

we're really doing. so much of its

57:07

value is in its abundance and how it gathers as it goes along and

57:10

how

57:12

just stupidly

57:12

stupidly I

57:14

mean, we did not know what we were getting into.

57:16

Deep we were gonna go. But

57:18

the result is it's hard to talk

57:21

about it. complete thing until it's really fully

57:23

ingested. Well, you can you've given us so much

57:25

over the years, Tony. You can treat this

57:27

podcast like sports talk radio. Yeah. You

57:29

can just call and ring us up.

57:32

Whatever. But you can just fail.

57:34

Right. It's Tony

57:35

from New York. I will

57:37

come back. I'll come back. I'll come

57:38

back. Yeah. If there's a point where's if there's

57:40

a point along the way, there's a gonna be a

57:42

couple key things that are gonna happen or people just

57:44

gonna, like, be what the fuck. And

57:46

there's a couple big things that'll appear. And Debbie

57:49

moments that Disney's gonna wanna underline as

57:51

we go along and certainly things are gonna

57:53

be willing to talk about That's

57:55

great. Great. And then the and then the board legacy pod

57:57

the board legacy legacy podcast, we're gonna start.

57:59

We'll go off air and we'll plan it. I gotta oh

58:01

my god. We didn't even ask

58:04

the questions. We have them. Bless you for the legacy

58:06

love. Bless you. Tony Gilroy, thank you

58:08

so much for joining us today, man. My god. What a

58:10

guest? Thank you, guys.