0:00

Hey. Hey. Hey.

0:04

Can I talk to you guys for a second? Sure.

0:06

Over 25 years ago, on September 29,

0:10

1998, we watched a brainy girl with curly hair

0:12

drop everything to follow a guy she only kind

0:14

of knew all the way to college. And

0:17

so began Felicity, the brainchild of JJ

0:19

Abrams and Matt Reeves, starring Carrie

0:21

Russell. And me,

0:24

Greg Grundberg, aka Shawn Blumberg.

0:26

It won't be confusing at all. And

0:29

me, Amanda Forman. AKA Felicity's

0:31

roommate with the box. And

0:34

I'm Juliette Litman. I was not on Felicity, but

0:36

I remember every moment of it. Probably better than

0:38

these two do. All together, we'll

0:40

be revisiting our favorite moments from the show and

0:42

talking to the people who helped shape it. We

0:44

talked to Carrie Russell, of course, because she's the

0:46

best. And also Scott Speedman

0:49

and Scott Foley. I was Team

0:51

Scott. I just want to lay that out there right now. And

0:53

we also talked to JJ and Matt, the two

0:55

brains behind this amazing series. And many more people

0:58

who work behind the scenes and in front of

1:00

the camera. From

1:03

Bad Robot Audio and The Ringer, this is Dear

1:05

Felicity. Listen to Dear Felicity

1:07

on Spotify or wherever you get your

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podcasts. This

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episode is brought to you by Hulu. Hey

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there. You know that Hulu has

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2:01

now. Hello and welcome to the watch.

2:03

My name is Chris Ryan. I am

2:05

an editor at the ringer.com and

2:07

joining me in the studio, he'll

2:10

have the natto. It's a degree

2:12

whoa. Have you ever had natto Chris?

2:14

I have not, but we're going to

2:16

talk all about it because that's a

2:18

big element of Shogun episode four. Kaya's

2:21

here. Kaya and I were just chatting about

2:24

East Side versus West Side living and the

2:26

extent to which our relationship might provide

2:29

the basis of friendship. I

2:32

mean, not to, not to, I was, I was thinking about moving

2:35

to the West Side as kind of like, where are we hanging

2:37

out or what? I want to be clear. I don't want to

2:39

dox anyone, but the thought of you

2:41

becoming a West Sider is rich.

2:44

This is a rich text. I don't think it's

2:46

possible because you think that I would just all

2:48

of a sudden be like wearing Vans

2:50

flip-ons and I think that you would

2:52

be the documentary version of Will Arnett

2:54

and flaked. But Kaya's not like that.

2:57

Yeah, but Kaya's not you. Kaya comes to

2:59

her West Side-ness naturally. I gotta say it's,

3:01

it is hard to picture you there. Yeah. I

3:05

mean, like stand outside of Whole Foods

3:07

with a mouthful of zen. There's a

3:09

couple things Kaya is not over again.

3:11

You heard the news about Joe Burrow.

3:16

Kaya is a bit younger than

3:18

us. Yeah. What's the opposite of a bit?

3:20

Kaya is younger than us. Yeah. Kaya is

3:22

a native Californian. Kaya went

3:24

to school on the West Side. Royal AmeriMout.

3:26

Proximity to the ocean is part of Kaya's

3:29

core brand identity. Yeah. And everyone who listens

3:31

to this podcast can tell what's my core

3:33

brand. A moment ago,

3:35

you said, what should I

3:37

be proximate to? A moment ago, you just

3:39

did the Randy Macho Man Savage voice, imitating

3:42

yourself, hypothetically, proselytizing

3:46

for zen nicotine pouches and

3:48

Joe Burrow's friendship with former president Donald

3:50

Trump. There's also like not a

3:52

lot of sweet greens on the West Side. I

3:56

think in my like in Santa Monica, there's

3:58

only like one. around me.

4:01

God, you'd have to be an Erewhon guy

4:03

more. I can't tell what I'm more sad about. The fact

4:06

that there's only one sweetgreen or that that's

4:08

what Kaya thinks I amount to is just

4:10

a salad. She's tearing treats! Kaya, again. I

4:12

know how integral it is to your day.

4:14

Kaya is respectful of you and

4:16

your process and also knows that a happy

4:19

Chris, meaning a Chris who's had his usual

4:21

leafy greens, makes for a better work

4:23

environment. That's true. I mean, I think

4:25

you guys are both looking out for me and you

4:27

want the best for me. I mean, I would be

4:29

thrilled if you moved to the west side. Thank

4:31

you. I just want the ringer contingent. I'm

4:36

kind of like a Oregon trail type, Princess Parkman kind of guy. I think that there is

4:38

a level of,

4:47

it's not cynicism, but I think it's

4:49

more practicality of what Kaya is saying

4:51

because if you were also traveling east

4:53

to record, some of her

4:55

daily considerations might be shared considerations. Like,

4:58

I don't want to do it at

5:00

this time or during mudslides

5:02

or whatever. That's bad

5:05

for you. If it starts being me and

5:07

Kai being like, nah, dog, there's a big

5:09

swell. You going to shred

5:11

it when he's moving to Nazare? No,

5:13

it is not bad for me because

5:15

luckily, before all of this nonsense, westward

5:18

migration talk started, I laid down the

5:20

gauntlet that I am in person only

5:22

for all podcasts. Well, then we

5:24

just established a Santa Monica. That's right. Maybe we

5:27

could get a little wee work going. Well,

5:29

you would have to get a kind of a

5:31

compound. Is that what you were thinking about? Yeah.

5:33

You know what I mean? For sure. Like a

5:35

couple of small properties behind a firewall, kind

5:38

of like James Cameron. Everybody's got them out in

5:40

the west side. I imagine real estate gets cheaper

5:42

the closer to the ocean you go, if I

5:45

remember correctly. Yeah, that's, yeah. Accurate? Yeah, that's the

5:47

theory. I'll take everything you guys say into consideration.

5:49

Today, Andy, we're sorry. The house hunt would be

5:51

the best pivot for the podcast. Do

5:54

you get that with smoking shit? Shogun

5:56

and also The Gentleman, a show on Netflix

5:59

that got released. last Friday. It

6:01

is a sort of expansion adaptation

6:03

of Guy Ritchie's 2019 crime movie that I

6:06

enjoyed quite a bit called The Gentleman and

6:08

Guy Ritchie is responsible for this show. So

6:10

we'll chat a little bit about that. And

6:12

also Andy, I wanted to kind of start

6:14

here. A couple of people

6:16

had flagged this to us on social media.

6:18

Okay. You and I are

6:20

known across the land as

6:22

the greatest proselytizers for Folding

6:25

Wandery TV. Yeah, of

6:28

course. If there's anything that we like

6:30

more, it's not paying attention to what

6:32

we're watching. It's being able to do.

6:34

The podcast is evidence. No,

6:36

a couple of, I guess years

6:38

ago at this point, like we I think

6:40

made some reference to a show

6:43

that we liked. I can't remember what it

6:45

was. Right. We were paying so little attention

6:47

to it. I know. I was paying so little attention

6:49

to what I was even saying at the moment on

6:51

the podcast. We were talking about the sensation of there's

6:53

TV where you feel like you have to watch every

6:55

single frame and be present for it and analyze every

6:58

single decision that the creators are making and be all

7:00

just granularly breaking down the text. And then

7:03

there's TV where you're like, if I walk out of

7:05

the room and come back in, chances are I'll

7:07

be able to grasp what's going on here. That

7:10

angered Sam Esmail, creator

7:13

of Mr. Robot, director of Leave the

7:15

World Behind. And he was

7:17

like, her frequent guest of the big picture.

7:19

Yeah, big picture, kind of the third chair

7:22

there. I would say he was

7:24

like, that you guys are everything that's wrong with

7:26

American culture. And then we bought him a coffee.

7:32

So I may mention this

7:34

context because, yeah, in the New

7:36

Yorkers, never ending pursuit to write

7:39

lengthy profiles of everybody who was

7:41

in the succession writers room. There

7:43

is a wonderful piece on Lucy Preble, who

7:45

is an accomplished screenwriter and playwright who worked

7:48

on succession. Rebecca Mead wrote this, this piece

7:50

I'm being snarky. I actually quite enjoy when

7:52

Rebecca Mead just spends tons of time thinking

7:54

about people who used to work on succession.

7:57

I mean, she also created the show. I

7:59

hate it. Susie which you've had been recommending

8:01

to us for years. I still have not watched

8:03

I do watch and it was I would describe

8:05

it as And

8:07

this is me saying it's my deficiency

8:10

not my tempo, right? But

8:12

I thought it was a very cool idea for

8:14

a show. Anyway, Rebecca

8:17

me interviewing Lucy Preble and

8:19

they're chatting about life and

8:21

TV and work and Here's a

8:24

passage from this piece. Okay. Yes Preble

8:27

is alert to the evolution of narrative

8:29

in the digital age and likes to

8:31

think about how writers and directors might

8:33

adapt to new Technologies she said quote

8:35

over the holidays I was with my family

8:38

and my nephews and nieces and like everybody

8:40

they now watch everything with the subtitles on

8:42

which I would never Have predicted She

8:45

realized that her relatives preferred to have

8:47

more information available on screen to ensure

8:49

that they weren't missing anything if their

8:51

intention was divided Preble went on quote

8:54

like a wanker I'm spending hours and

8:56

hours on my stuff carefully calibrating an

8:58

actor's performance in the edit and they're

9:00

just watching it with the subtitles Anyway,

9:03

she observed this is not in a

9:05

spirit of curmudgeonly nostalgia, but with an

9:08

open interested curiosity quote I'm thinking that

9:10

now there might be a market for

9:12

television or drama. That's the opposite of

9:14

grabby Something's happening all the

9:16

time. Don't look away kind of thing that Netflix

9:18

II thing She said she cited

9:21

the example of the Beatles get back the

9:23

Peter Jackson documentary about the 1969 recording of

9:25

let it be Watching that was

9:27

more like listening to a chatty podcast. Hey

9:29

Preble. Come on the watch You

9:31

could wander away and come

9:34

back because there were lots of scenes of these

9:36

incredible geniuses creating in a room together But they

9:38

were also being like shall we have some tea?

9:40

It's suggested to Preble that she might want to

9:42

experiment with quote doing shows that feel like having

9:44

a bath Where you just want

9:46

to be in that environment for a long time I

9:49

thought this is interesting not only because

9:52

obviously this is something that creators are thinking

9:54

about how is there stuff being processed? right,

9:56

I think to Sam's

9:58

credit like He puts a ton of thought

10:01

into every single frame and every single

10:03

gesture and every single movement that you

10:06

see on screen. And the idea that

10:08

dickheads like us are like, do

10:10

I still have Pringles? Let me go check while

10:12

it's going. It's probably maddening to him. Do

10:15

you think he hears our voices say, no, no, you don't have to pause

10:17

it. Just

10:19

ringing in his ears. But

10:22

it is interesting to me to know

10:24

that other creators are thinking about the

10:27

ways in which these shows are being

10:29

watched, the behaviors that go into them.

10:31

And we're going to have obviously a

10:33

specific conversation about Shogun and The Gentleman,

10:36

but I was snickering to

10:38

myself last night, just a little private

10:40

laugh, where I think I

10:42

got like 40 minutes into The Gentleman and

10:45

realized that I am currently while watching The

10:47

Gentleman, Shogun, my wife and I have

10:49

been watching Criminal Record on Apple. Oh, how is that?

10:51

It's quite good. It's a really fun mystery. Not fun

10:53

at all, but it's a good mystery. I

10:56

started watching Three Body Problem

10:58

and that's a screen reflex.

11:01

My point is more that I'm watching currently

11:03

like up to half a dozen long dramas.

11:07

I think I have to keep like 70 people

11:09

straight right now. In terms of like

11:11

who they are, what they're doing, what they want, like where they

11:13

are in the story, all this stuff. It's

11:16

more than maybe the... Yeah,

11:18

the fuck is up. Fan

11:20

just walked by. He

11:24

threw up some kicks. He also then blew us

11:26

a kiss that was either like, I love

11:28

you or I'm going to see you in hell. Yeah,

11:31

well I was telling him he's the best podcaster. I

11:34

think that's accurate. So

11:36

like if you're watching like say

11:38

four or five shows at any given

11:40

time, you're keeping like upwards of 70 characters straight

11:42

in your head. For as

11:44

much as probably, you know,

11:47

people think of us as like the guy from Idiocracy

11:50

or something. Like it is hard to watch

11:52

TV and just like keep your mind wrapped

11:54

around all these stories all the time if

11:57

you're doing it at a high level. I

11:59

agree. Yeah, I think I

12:02

think it's a very interesting observation and I think

12:04

it's a correct one I also feel like like

12:06

many bold and direct statements the

12:08

gradations of how to apply that Sort

12:11

of are not a I mean

12:13

they're on my statement or Lucy Preble your statement

12:15

was was mid. Yeah I think it was like

12:17

neither funny nor smart But but I can work

12:19

with that that is rough clay that I can

12:22

use to craft No, no, I what

12:24

I mean is like I think how

12:26

what she's saying ought to be applied is

12:29

their gradations to that and and what I mean is

12:33

there is already a rich tradition of Let's

12:36

vibe out in bathwater television. Some of it is

12:38

called golf. Some of it is called

12:40

a hundred foot wave Some of

12:42

it is for some people. It's like episodes of

12:45

chopped Like I think people have plenty of access

12:47

to that sort of programming It has never gone

12:49

out of style when I hear some of us

12:51

just sit with the screaming thoughts inside of our

12:53

head No, I'd just say West

12:55

Side or East Side who could say the way you

12:57

said West Side or East Side a little ominous also

13:00

Yeah, yeah No, it's fun to just sit by the

13:02

gaping hole inside of yourself and just think about it

13:04

Just try to get our YouTube streams of the 405

13:07

really no different For

13:11

Me what's interesting about the statement? And I

13:14

think it's very true is the way that

13:16

you can integrate that this

13:18

bathwater feels great feeling back

13:20

into Grabby television

13:23

I say this probably like clockwork every few episodes

13:25

of the watch but like I do think that's

13:27

still a central part of our Particular

13:30

relationship with TV is a this world is coming

13:32

into my house. So I want to be comfortable

13:34

with it Yeah, I think we go back to

13:37

shows time and time again, not because of Cliff

13:40

hangers or grabby plot or buzzy themes or whatever

13:42

that feel of the moment we go back because

13:44

we like being in a place with our pals

13:46

with our made-up pals and I

13:49

think that the very best shows are

13:51

able to honor that while

13:53

also doing the stuff they want to do It's

13:56

not they do the other things on the margins, but they do

13:58

them in concert with each other Not

14:00

to pile on Lucy's colleague former

14:02

colleague its accession will Tracy's show

14:05

the regime but just as a reaching

14:07

into my limiting

14:09

increasingly limited mind archive of television

14:11

show a little shoebox of references

14:13

like It just

14:16

my cash clears after eight days. You know

14:18

what I mean? I'm like I'm like the

14:20

security footage Maybe

14:22

every month when the cops are like you have footage

14:24

of that like nope. We just tape over the same

14:26

stuff so The

14:30

thing about the regime is even if I

14:32

found it like sharp or the performance is

14:34

clever or the satire You

14:37

know like hitting the bullseye I don't really want

14:39

to hang out in this unnamed Central European country

14:41

a week It's not that great for me and

14:43

one of the reasons why I really liked this

14:45

episode of Shogun We don't need to jump

14:47

straight to it yet was because it took

14:49

time to be like look where you fucking are Think

14:52

about it. Yeah with it for a second

14:55

And I appreciated that considering there were also

14:57

going to be canon firings later in the

14:59

episode So that that's my read on it.

15:01

I what to your mind like what would

15:03

what would a perfect? 2024

15:06

you know, let's push it forward 2025 Bathwater

15:09

show be in this economy. Well, okay

15:11

So I don't think I

15:13

did a really good job of explaining myself. I

15:15

wasn't van said that but I thought you were

15:17

good I thought I but my point really about

15:19

the keeping 70 characters straight Is that for as

15:22

much as I'm sure from the

15:24

perspective of somebody making television? They're like I put

15:26

all this work into something and someone holding laundry

15:28

while they're watching it That doesn't seem like a

15:31

good trade-off for me I'm like I was just

15:33

saying that for I think a lot of TV

15:35

watchers if they're doing more than one show at

15:37

once Have a lot to keep track of

15:39

right Oh, and it's it's just as much work

15:41

to watch television in some ways when

15:43

you boil it down as it is to like give Make

15:46

television right watch. I know

15:48

that that's not true, but it's let's just present it is

15:51

And then so my point largely

15:53

was like I Think that

15:55

we are kind of operating at the limits of

15:58

what the human mind can kind of comprehend. When

16:00

it comes to like a seventy character?

16:02

yeah, and and all these different plotlines

16:04

and also maybe having a slight awareness

16:06

that. You're. Being artificially manipulated to

16:08

extend to ten hours or extends to

16:11

two seasons or extend whatever it is

16:13

a ones are becoming a little bit

16:15

of a challenge and sometimes having a

16:17

show that you know. You're. Just

16:19

gonna like walk in and out of which

16:21

is actually how. My formative years

16:24

were spent watching television because I didn't

16:26

have a Dvr because there were commercials

16:28

because. You. Know, sometimes I got

16:30

home at eight Thirty five instead of Eight

16:32

Twenty Eight. so I missed the first five

16:34

minutes of a show like that relationship

16:36

to television. Salt. Somehow

16:39

more. Naturals, Know

16:41

I don't know what. Two points Know what

16:43

are sponsoring what you say. One is I

16:45

think that the conversation I want to put

16:47

words into Sam's mouth and and and everyone

16:49

create things has their own perspective on it.

16:51

But. To me like. A creator

16:54

can only control so much and they can control

16:56

what makes them feel good and comfortable. but the

16:58

work they put into the world and like. So.

17:01

From my. Perspective. By vantage

17:03

point and not making Oppenheimer for example,

17:05

like Christopher Nolan, process is to micromanage

17:07

every second of of a movie and

17:09

every frame and every everything that you're

17:11

going here and he obsesses over And

17:13

you wanted to be presented in the

17:16

perfect ah, in the optimal way seventy

17:18

millimeter Imax. I'll be things that's beautiful

17:20

that he does that. That's wonderful that

17:22

he does that. He is

17:24

also someone who understands that people sometimes

17:26

like your humble married or will watch

17:28

these beautiful movies on the back of

17:30

a stealth airplane seat. He

17:32

doesn't mean he wasn't He shouldn't have done

17:34

it. Yeah, but you cannot control how things

17:37

received. Ever. Whether you're like worried about how

17:39

your political messaging is going over or he

17:41

and we are posing for photos with Cincinnati

17:43

Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow for example. Or you

17:45

know how much you frame fucked something and

17:48

so it just looks absolutely perfect. Yeah, Hair

17:50

Control. It. Doesn't mean you should put in the effort.

17:52

The. Second point though as I wondered if you

17:54

think that the. Just. That said, the

17:56

sort of. Intellectual. Effort holding

17:59

all of this. That any given

18:01

time does that change when something

18:03

is. Well. And truly binged. Meaning.

18:06

He is that an argument for. Watching.

18:09

Ten hours of Netflix show in twenty four hours

18:11

because then you are just immersed in a world

18:13

in the way you would be in a movie.

18:16

Because my understanding of like Freeman culture

18:19

is diminishing by the second I we

18:21

were who weeks away from dune part

18:23

to fight. I. Ate. I mean

18:25

as if you're trying to manage multiple

18:27

characters and a complicated, smart story over

18:30

ten weeks vs. over one weekend. To.

18:32

Sexually Violent Album is going to be

18:35

a very interesting answer to this question

18:37

because it's not a. I

18:39

I I think it's quite good. I really

18:41

like what I've seen so far. like really

18:43

get. By. Just broke your own embargo

18:45

know the hamburgers and was no idea to

18:47

go. Yar embark is this is the cr

18:49

Get affected by it. There's. A lot

18:52

of physics in it and it's really dense

18:54

and it's gonna be a h hard for

18:56

people to just be like breezing through it.

18:58

I think I'm eve he maybe it's been

19:00

created to do that. I am I missing

19:02

the point but I've watched to I'm watching

19:04

it piecemeal isn't and it's a homework assignment.

19:06

It's like you definitely have to like keep

19:08

your mind wrapped around with bill timelines and

19:10

like really Etti ideas made my experience. The

19:12

bits that think it's really been used is

19:14

something like one day on Netflix, you know,

19:16

whichever is very good which is it's It

19:18

is quite good. It is quite sad and

19:20

it is. Fourteen. Episodes about half

19:22

an hour so each race and it

19:24

takes takes place over. It's like one

19:26

day a year. In the course

19:29

of this relationship between these two people meet in

19:31

college that the full title is it the way

19:33

the member member the Fiona Apple album like when

19:35

the pollen been really was really long for one

19:37

days is what we call the show. this accident

19:39

Why I say it's very arrogant or honestly it's

19:41

it is actually is a pretty good partner. conversation

19:44

topic were listed. I was about to. I.

19:46

Knew it I could finish it. I did he

19:48

ask the I disagree. Yes, I

19:50

digress. not as much as they normally

19:52

people. Yeah. Some

19:55

tears in the ryan how's not not on my

19:57

part of course is as if you're guilty as

19:59

ever at the other. Roger for so. Anyway,

20:01

my point was like that seems to be

20:03

the kind of like thing they get been

20:05

used. Words like this will give me a

20:07

desired emotional response rather than. For. You

20:09

to think about the origins of the universe.

20:11

Ah okay, I could be wrong. The Lucy

20:14

Preble comment about get Back I thought was

20:16

interesting because our while it's like yeah you

20:18

know, like you could just kind of like.

20:21

Interact with these. Characters.

20:23

That you see on screen but like in a passive

20:25

where they will. They're also the Beatles. So I think

20:27

if it was just like. Or. Deep shit

20:29

from Dayton, Ohio like playing in their

20:31

garage. We probably wouldn't have the engagement

20:34

numbers they're of. Is there one hundred

20:36

hours of Guided By Voices Making For

20:38

Seller and Ninety Med series that we

20:40

use? You watch it. Yes. I

20:42

have a lot of laundry. So.

20:45

Yep, yeah yeah I would. that sounds actually

20:47

amazing. I also do want to say that

20:49

when you you read this profile for I

20:51

did and then your text me you're like

20:53

you're some interesting. Here's the interesting, sexier and

20:55

mother takers. Were. Know which is that when

20:57

you texas me in you said did you see what

21:00

she said about get back. And. How

21:02

like and I and I saw the writing a

21:04

laundry for the conversation and and. My.

21:06

Brain. Said. That

21:08

you are talking about. I get out. And

21:11

you're like why aren't wire more Tv shows like The

21:13

Jordan Feel film, Get Out Who just chill out about

21:16

him For mit to movie theaters allow us to fold

21:18

our laundry. Why? During get out there? Are you a

21:20

O L? Yeah I do that. You watch your back.

21:23

Yes, But in a very Lucy Preble wet.

21:25

yeah I cannot tell you if I want

21:27

to tell of it. I watched some of

21:29

it. Sometimes it's a very good profile. It

21:31

may be variance in her plays. It.

21:33

Also we my mind because

21:35

I watch Faith Ed Sullivan

21:37

show some. The. Writer Bill

21:39

and Ted's and also have. Full. Circle

21:41

and Show that We Love the Soderbergh. Last year. Sat.

21:44

There married. Their. Their them they

21:47

have a new baby. And. They met over.

21:49

Twitter. And then Zoom during lockdown

21:51

been worked out. Really? really

21:54

good read up on i didn't see the twitter

21:56

and zoom part yeah as it may be i

21:58

was treating this article as wander tv Your

22:00

home is immaculate. Your Eastside home.

22:03

I mean, your beach pied-a-terre is

22:05

TBD. But, yeah,

22:08

he'd written something in 2021 about

22:10

being mistaken for the Boston Strangler, some,

22:12

forgive me, some murder, like some

22:14

funny thing from his past. Yes. And she had

22:16

retweeted it and he was DM'd and then

22:18

they were chatting and then they were zooming during pandemic and then

22:21

when they went to New York to film Succession season three, he

22:24

went over to where she was staying and they almost got

22:26

busted by the quarantine police. Really? And now they

22:28

got a baby. That's a beautiful story. And

22:30

his first wife is John Cleese's daughter. He's

22:33

fascinating too. Huh. You know what, Chris?

22:35

We cover television, but you know what's

22:37

really wild? We're mapping the human heart.

22:39

Reality. Yeah. I

22:41

was blown away by that. I just

22:43

think it's an interesting ongoing conversation. Here's one

22:45

thing that is more interesting to me, is

22:48

that the shows and the showrunners don't get to decide

22:50

how people watch these things. Right. This is the thing.

22:52

That's kind of, you

22:55

know, in my case, I'm probably reacting to feeling

22:57

like I have a little bit of a volume

22:59

issue in terms of how much stuff I'm watching.

23:02

In other people's cases, it might be, you know what? I think

23:04

I know what's going to happen in this scene. So I'm going

23:06

to go get some peanut butter. And I think

23:08

that there's a lot of different reasons why people watch

23:10

things in a lot of different ways. And to your

23:12

point about Oppenheimer, it's like, yes, there

23:15

is a optimal viewing experience for that

23:17

film. Is there also a

23:20

legitimate viewing experience for it if you're watching it

23:22

on your laptop in bed or watching it on your

23:24

phone or watching it on the

23:26

back of somebody's head in an airplane? I

23:29

mean, I would say I'm patient

23:32

zero for that, or exhibit A, because

23:34

I saw Oppenheimer with you and Sean

23:37

on IMAX. And I was blown

23:39

away by the experience. And I also, as I

23:41

said on this podcast, had I felt

23:44

things from a Nolan movie that I hadn't

23:46

before. Like I did feel legitimately like I

23:48

got it. Because I've

23:50

loved some of them and I've been mid

23:53

on some of them. And I've generally been like, my

23:55

thing that I don't love about his movies is that

23:57

they're so deeply unemotional. I don't understand a way in.

24:00

watching that movie in the way he intended, I

24:02

was like, oh, his emotion is expressed through sound

24:04

design. Yeah. You know, like that is actually what

24:06

he is passionate about. And you can feel that

24:08

in the movie. And that is a very different

24:10

experience than people who watch it streaming on Peacock.

24:12

You know, and anecdotally, people who I know who have done

24:15

it that way, if they like

24:17

Nolan, they like it. And if they've not liked Nolan, they feel

24:19

the same way about this as all the other ones. To

24:21

the other point, I want to zag on one thing. OK. Which

24:24

is when I say we, I don't mean

24:26

us in this. You mean the royalty. Yeah,

24:29

well, royal is a controversial term these days. That's true.

24:31

This is blowing up. We got to bring back in

24:33

on this. No,

24:36

it is a I'm

24:38

going to zag on the idea

24:40

that like we as a podcasters, we

24:43

make hay from talking about modes of distribution and

24:45

how we watch things and where things go. But

24:47

I do think it has absolutely bedeviled

24:50

the industry that the creative

24:53

supposedly creative community. And it's not just writers,

24:55

but even development executives and people on that

24:57

side of the ball have to spend so

24:59

much of their waking hours thinking about how

25:01

things are going to be received, which pipe

25:03

it's going to be fed into. That

25:06

for many years, that was not part of it.

25:08

That decision, that conversation was in the head of

25:10

the creator being like, is this a book or

25:12

is this a movie or is this a TV

25:15

show? And then there were three pneumatic tubes like

25:17

in Hudsucker proxy. And then you just went about

25:19

your day. The idea that people are

25:21

spending so much of their waking hours being

25:23

like, you know, I think I imagine this

25:25

as a binge on

25:27

a streaming service, but one that appeals to this demographic.

25:29

So to sell it to them, we have to tailor

25:31

it this way. And then we have to remember that

25:34

if we're doing it that way, we have to do

25:36

the episodes in this manner or even Lucy Preble idly

25:39

musing about, you know, maybe people want

25:41

this because of how I'm watching people

25:43

receive my content. It's just getting

25:45

very muddy. I just feel like maybe all this will

25:47

shake out in a few years and it'll be clearer

25:49

what the TV show, how TV shows are watched and

25:51

then we can move on from there. But I

25:54

do think that there's an argument to be made that some

25:56

of the hesitation in the

25:58

work, but some of the. Honestly,

26:00

some of the confusion in things that we've

26:02

been covering over the last few years is

26:04

directly connected to people spending so much

26:06

time thinking about the shape of it as opposed to

26:09

what they're putting inside of that shape. Yeah, I would

26:11

argue that probably if I

26:13

had to say, I would say folks should worry

26:15

about making the best possible television show they can,

26:17

telling the most interesting story they can because a

26:20

lot of what Lucy Preble is talking about is

26:22

just watching YouTube. And I

26:24

do that too. Sometimes I will put on the 4K video

26:28

of a guy making breakfast in an Australian campsite

26:30

with just his dog. And it's pretty awesome. Who's

26:32

holding the camera? No, you just set stuff on

26:34

tripods. Oh, I thought the dog was holding the

26:36

camera. Okay. That

26:39

would be... I was much more interested in that. I do think...

26:41

I bet you'd be like, I don't think this guy deserves an Oscar either. Oh,

26:44

like the dog from Anatomy of a Fall? That

26:47

dog deserves an Oscar? Who are you referring

26:49

to? I think I was just referring back

26:51

to your anti-Mascours A's he takes from Monday's

26:53

button. I think the voting history

26:56

of the Academy is on my side. I think

26:58

that... It's a

27:00

great place to be. I don't argue with

27:02

the will of the voters. Should we get

27:04

into Shogun? I think we should. And I

27:06

also just want to say good job by

27:08

you because I think that the conversation that

27:10

was sparked by this New Yorker profile is

27:13

relevant to the two shows we're talking about today. I

27:16

think both have done a very good

27:18

job navigating these tripwires and such.

27:22

This episode is brought to you by Hulu.

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29:35

So let's talk about the fourth episode of Shogun. Eightfold

29:38

Fence. The Eightfold Fence is the name of

29:40

the episode and it was written by our

29:42

old Grantland colleague Emily Yoshida. So shout out

29:44

to Emily. That was exciting to see. I'm

29:46

really happy for her. She's also hosting the

29:48

official Shogun podcast that you can listen to

29:51

and she worked deeply on this show, I

29:53

believe, as a staff writer, correct? And

29:55

so Emily wrote this fourth episode, which

29:57

is a more contemplative episode, I think.

30:00

given after the momentum of the

30:02

first three, this is a necessary

30:04

kind of like, let's sit, let's

30:06

talk about earthquakes. Let's sit and look at the rain. What

30:09

did you think? I thought

30:12

that this was a beautiful episode

30:14

that was also, to your point

30:16

just then, very well

30:18

placed. I keep coming back to what a

30:20

fan I am of the construction of the

30:22

show, as we've seen so far. And the

30:24

construction of the season. Yes. And

30:26

I haven't watched ahead. So for all I know,

30:29

I don't know how this is going to unfold,

30:32

but to me, the lineup card has been set

30:34

exactly right. This is a, it's almost as if

30:36

Shane Steichen is calling the plays. You

30:39

know what I mean? In terms of just knowing when to mix

30:41

it up. Like you come out throwing, and

30:43

then maybe a run to surprise you. Yeah,

30:47

and I think that that's remarkable. Because

30:49

both from talking to people in the

30:51

industry, from my own experience being in

30:53

writers rooms, I've found that one

30:56

of the hardest things to keep your mind

30:58

on, or that for showrunners to keep their

31:00

mind on, is that overall macro conversation of

31:02

the pace. Like you spend so much time

31:04

crafting each tree that you're not always thinking

31:06

about how the forest is going to hang

31:08

together. So three wildly paced,

31:10

riotously exciting episodes, where so many

31:12

things are crashing into each other,

31:15

literally and otherwise, let's

31:18

be in a place for a second. And let's think about

31:20

the place that we are in. And not

31:22

only in the more traditional, or at

31:24

least not traditional, in a, necessarily

31:26

in a good way, but a more outmoded type

31:28

of storytelling where it's about stranger in a strange

31:30

land, and look how strange this land is. It

31:33

is that it is presented as this is beguiling,

31:36

and it's beautiful, and

31:38

sometimes you sit and look at the rain. And

31:41

I thought that all that was so great, and

31:43

then I made me appreciate the kind of action

31:45

flex at the end of the episode even more.

31:47

Because again, this show knows what it is, and

31:49

you can feel very comfortable relaxing into it. Well,

31:51

I also thought that the overall theme of the

31:54

episode seemed to be, Individuals

31:57

trying to define themselves outside

31:59

of, Various. Systems

32:01

of Control Like whether that's ah,

32:03

being a soldier, whether that's being

32:05

a. What? Country you're from

32:08

being Japanese, being British, whether that's

32:10

being a pilot or a military

32:12

tacticians. whether that's being a. Catholic

32:15

translator. Or. A daughter

32:17

of some in a we haven't really

32:20

gotten Rico's. Story. Yet, but

32:22

like, we're starting to get flashes of it and

32:24

I think it's obviously going to have a substantial

32:26

impact on both the whole. Arc of

32:28

the of the show. I. Also thought

32:30

this isn't really awesome episode of supporting

32:33

characters becoming main characters in some ways

32:35

like even Fuji. ah myself so fleshed

32:37

out the by the end of this

32:39

episode. So I really I really thought

32:41

that there was this is like a

32:43

necessary gear shift. To. Give us like

32:46

a lot of nuance and also like. Frankly,

32:49

do this thing. That Tv

32:51

does really really well. Which. Is.

32:54

Time spent equaling depth of feeling and

32:56

test bed equaling depth the relationship because

32:58

when you get to the ended episodes

33:00

and there's some ambiguity about like what

33:02

happens towards the end boston I'm talking

33:04

pre. But when. We

33:06

get to the end of the episode and there's this.

33:08

Moment. Of sexual intimacy for. God

33:11

may up. I. Think there is some

33:13

confusion a little bit online and and I mean

33:16

I don't know officially like who he's up with.

33:18

You. Don't know what you do, do you know

33:20

you think it was a cortisone? Well.

33:23

I was confused i which is intentional

33:25

and then I. Did. A

33:27

little love cursory googling and it's the consensus seems

33:29

to be that it was Murray got. that's what

33:31

I thought. I thought you saw it. it was

33:34

like a quarter that. Like I thought you thought

33:36

she was telling the truth when she came outside

33:38

the next day was like we got. you're a

33:40

girl who be like that day. I think that

33:42

was me falling for it and was in the

33:44

episode after Dinner aka. Know

33:47

laundry? But. It's gonna be hundreds of you.

33:50

I made a lovely dinner. maybe

33:52

maybe it will we be okay so that's what

33:54

i thought to i thought it was rico but for

33:57

a variety of reasons for that i love this

33:59

game of chicken reply where it's like, who's gonna

34:01

be wrong? Who's gonna have their name

34:03

on being wrong about this? It's not just

34:05

that. It's that if there's one thing our

34:07

friends at FX have made it clear to

34:09

us, is that they are listening and available

34:11

for just spot checking stuff. But neither of

34:13

us, neither of us were like, hey, game. I

34:16

think that it's played for

34:18

there being some mystery to it. That being said,

34:20

if it is Mariko, it

34:23

is the consummation of basically 60 minutes

34:25

of these two people becoming, if

34:28

not falling in love, like growing very close over

34:30

the course of the episode. Well, hot

34:32

tubs do that. Yeah,

34:34

and earthquakes, baby earthquakes. Baby

34:36

earthquakes. You want

34:39

to comment a little bit about

34:42

seismology in... Not that. The

34:45

one thing that makes me laugh, and there's no

34:47

other way to tell the story, is just that

34:49

Mariko and John Blackthorne are the most

34:51

proficient Portuguese speakers in the history of

34:54

the world. They would speak on such

34:56

an elevated level of Portuguese discourse that

34:58

Cristiano Ronaldo would be like, huh? Do

35:02

you understand? Their

35:05

education in this

35:07

language, which again, no disrespect to our millions of

35:09

fans in Brazil, is not traditionally

35:11

one of the great five world powers that

35:13

every student learns. They crush

35:15

this language to the degree where Blackthorne is

35:17

just like, the

35:23

things that he says when he thinks no one can understand

35:25

him, except I guess Mariko and the audience. How

35:28

do you say fuckery in Portuguese? Oh, so do

35:31

you always think he's only speaking Portuguese? No, my

35:33

assumption is... Because I thought when he's cursing people

35:35

out, he's doing it in... But then Mariko does

35:37

a little smirk, and is it because Portuguese curse

35:39

words, being a romance language, there's a lot of

35:42

overlap? Or can she just, she knows this dude

35:44

at this point? My

35:46

favorite scene was when they're outside, and there's a

35:48

little temblor, as they say, and he's like,

35:51

my God, what the devil is this? The

35:53

earth moving beneath my feet? What

35:56

is this place, the Japan's? And

35:58

then she's like... Ah, you

36:01

don't know this thing. This is and then in beautiful,

36:03

Maleficent Portuguese. I'm on the edge of my seat

36:06

wanting you to just do Cosmo Jarvis the rest

36:08

of this episode. She's like, My God. Say, come

36:10

on, Mark. We're on a needle. Howie

36:13

Roseman never overpaced before running back in

36:16

this market. I suppose with the

36:18

cap going up, it's

36:20

possible. Don't

36:22

like it. It's possible. But

36:25

she's like in perfect Portuguese. She's like, that's

36:27

an earthquake. And he's like, earthquake, you say, well,

36:30

I suppose my Portuguese master never used that term with me.

36:34

Which makes sense. We

36:37

all know what I'm saying. Maybe

36:41

what we're seeing is that he is saying

36:43

you're sweating. I just want this. This

36:46

is honestly my favorite fucking thing you've ever

36:48

done. I

36:51

think that we are seeing that John Blackthorn

36:53

is actually a language prodigy because in the

36:55

span of that scene, he is undone by

36:58

the tectonic plate movement, learns a new word

37:00

in a language that isn't his own. And

37:02

then it's just like, There's some scenarios that

37:04

you could think, what about John Blackthorn walks

37:07

into a contemporary CVS. By

37:10

God, the affron behind the plastic shielding. Where

37:12

the devil's the toothpaste. What buccaneers have come

37:14

through and taken all the affron? I

37:17

see. Makes sense. Spike's crime. Post

37:20

coronavirus. Scody

37:23

guards. Where the swords? Their

37:25

weapons. Oh, encourage

37:27

not to confront. Well, makes sense to suppose

37:29

tacticians. Everyone. Is

37:32

that a farthest thing? But.

37:39

God damn it, it's so cool to just be able to

37:41

have it on demand like this. But God, the Easter can.

37:44

Fuck. Greenwald, you are the best man. Don't

37:47

let anybody ever tell you anything otherwise.

37:51

We step it down for a while. Like, cowl off.

37:54

This is a new vibe in here. I like

37:56

it. Fuck.

37:58

Okay. So

38:00

that's the Blackthorn and Mariko thing. I also really,

38:02

obviously I made a joke about it in the

38:04

opening of the pod, but I

38:07

really enjoy it when guys eat stuff that

38:09

they're not used to eating and they're like,

38:11

hmm, and they have to... You want it

38:13

again! You want it! Can't overdo

38:15

it! But cheese. Yeah,

38:18

I... Have you had natto? I

38:20

have had natto. And what's... So natto is first

38:22

the green water. It's

38:24

like overly fermented soybeans and they ferment to

38:27

the point that they get kind of sticky

38:29

and like pull apart. And ripe, overripe.

38:31

It's ripe. It is a fermented

38:33

product. So it is like cheese, which is not

38:35

something that was eaten in Japan, certainly in the

38:37

17th century. It's an acquired

38:39

taste. It's an acquired taste. It's not

38:41

even so much the taste as it's a texture thing.

38:44

But I thought that was cool that that

38:47

was a beautifully observed moment and

38:49

it wasn't overly indicated, which I

38:51

thought was good as well. Like

38:54

the sort of the taming of this western barbarian

38:56

is being done like in relatively

38:58

subtle degrees. And I

39:01

like that they weren't explaining, well,

39:03

here's what we do with the soybeans. He was like, I

39:06

would also imagine that our guy has

39:09

eaten much worse. Absolutely. Do

39:11

you know what must have been happening on the

39:13

black chip while he or like on his... On

39:15

his ship. On his ship. They

39:18

hadn't at the beginning. They had no food, right? They had

39:20

no food, they had no water. Yeah. And

39:22

just being like, uh, I think he's doing

39:24

well. Now again, as someone who was recently, even just on

39:26

the casual level, the captain is bummed out that he put

39:28

a bullet in his own head right before they got to

39:31

Japan. You gotta see

39:33

the journey through. I think that's a great point.

39:36

Although, you know, I guess the counter

39:38

argument would be maybe he's the one who gets

39:40

boiled alive. Yeah. I

39:43

had a moment. Yeah, exactly. Um,

39:45

as someone again who is sort of

39:48

in a casual house hunt of his

39:50

own, how did you feel about Black T's

39:52

just kind of like, he kind

39:54

of nags. I think that

39:56

there is a housing abundance of these towns that I want to

39:58

get to the bottom of. Why would

40:00

I kind of the I do. I disagree. I feel

40:02

like there's a lot going on behind the scenes where

40:04

the like get him a how know because they were

40:06

in Tacoma Narrows. Men show up when when that guy

40:08

shows up Jos and into play guess yo like. The

40:11

houses for all these guys. I'm just like

40:13

regime being out here. You

40:16

know, agree with his. Just so much

40:18

difference for her to eat. Some visiting

40:20

soldiers did their own words. I assume

40:22

that every for every visiting soldiers someone

40:24

has put out on their ass. I

40:27

I I I think that there's a a hierarchy

40:29

here of like, who gets to have a house

40:31

as and who's in charge of I don't think

40:33

anyone. I was a years. It's

40:35

like if you like a fishermen or something and

40:38

yeah procedures like we got we got some this

40:40

some none of this belongs to eat out There

40:42

is really out yeah it is a collective property

40:44

ownership you know attack. Ah. Anyway, yes

40:47

it would be great if somebody was just like

40:49

Curier Quarters now I and and it was just

40:51

like right on Manhattan Beach. Stubby. Sit here and

40:53

there I can. Also here's your servants and your

40:55

have become source of. I began

40:57

My wife my.love the concert part whether aspects

41:00

of it that she would like and and

41:02

maybe in the Black Thorn model where he

41:04

is not. Taking. Advantage of all the

41:06

pillow and are there certain things that that she

41:09

might enjoy. For example, we learned in this episode

41:11

of the concert can't Go To Bed. Until.

41:13

The hosts goes up as. You. Are

41:15

on record Sometimes late night as

41:17

view would see our disease. Easy

41:19

to yes. So. In

41:22

this scenario, Fuji's.

41:24

Summer. Would. Stay awake with

41:26

Phoebe and watch as few as view.

41:28

Yeah had shot I just sat is.

41:31

But. We must see the chatter. Yeah, she

41:33

would like a late night talk I'm sure.

41:35

Ah, there's a lot to be explored their

41:37

arms. Let's talk a little bit about the

41:39

sort of political and military rustic yeah during

41:42

the goes on. So. I thought

41:44

that the opening scene were torn naga. Is

41:46

is basically doing. A.

41:49

Nick Saban speech as as this crowds

41:51

goes absolutely wilde for him. Every Yuki

41:53

Sonata is so good an I am

41:56

and of San up and down like

41:58

see as. I know. that he's

42:00

talked about like how he was so

42:02

hands-on with like when the script would

42:04

come through and then when they were

42:06

on set, Sonato apparently would go around

42:09

like adjusting the posture of different actors

42:11

and stuff like that. You can tell he's

42:13

holding himself to that same standard

42:16

because like it's just like it's very

42:18

iconic. It's really quite a performance so far.

42:20

And you understand why they built the show

42:22

around him. Why they filmed that one day

42:24

just to keep him and the property alive.

42:26

Yeah, but it's funny.

42:28

When he leaves, I was like

42:30

fuck man, that's my guy right there. I

42:34

want to spend more time with him. I'm sure we will.

42:36

But like he is the

42:38

battery of the show kind of. I also related to

42:40

his social strategy because there was a whole period of

42:42

years in New York where I would be like let's

42:44

go to this place and everyone would land and we'd

42:46

have a similar like warm welcome and then you'd be

42:48

like cool how long are we staying and

42:51

I'd already be in a taxi? Yes. Leaving? Yeah, the

42:53

green wall goodbye. I

42:56

mean he bounced. But

42:58

you know this is to my point about people discovering

43:01

their own identity and choosing their own paths and stuff

43:03

like that. Like I think that for Omi, for

43:06

Toronaga's son, to some extent

43:08

for Yabushige, like they're trying to decide like

43:10

who am I loyal to? What are

43:13

my duties as a son? What are my

43:15

responsibilities to my own manhood?

43:18

But in the light of the conversation you were

43:20

having before about keeping track of a lot of

43:22

characters. This is a show that is

43:24

primarily in a language we don't speak

43:27

and he's not just introducing a ton

43:29

of world and a lot of historical

43:31

context and culture but also many characters

43:33

in different geographic locations and yet it

43:35

is so artful in it that like

43:37

Yabushige is already one of my favorite

43:39

characters on television full stop. That

43:41

Omi within

43:43

this episode makes a

43:45

very very strong and clear impression. That's really.

43:48

He smiles when the when Toronaga's son is

43:50

going off and he's just like I got

43:52

him. That's really hard to do but it's

43:54

not just if he's doing the got him

43:56

it's that they laid the tracks when they're

43:58

having their little sake time. before you're like

44:00

I see the machinations here. Now is

44:02

that because we've been watching a lot of shows

44:04

about tortured family dynamics and power machinations recently? Maybe,

44:06

but Shogun doesn't exist in a vacuum and it's

44:09

playing off of that in the same way that

44:11

you said at the beginning that like oh there's

44:13

some Game of Thrones energy to the credits. I

44:16

just feel like the show is operating on a very elite level

44:18

where it is training us in certain

44:20

ways to expect things or to put our

44:22

minds in a certain place so that we

44:24

are receptive to all the shit they're throwing

44:26

at us. The kind of

44:29

brash youth rebelling against

44:32

the staid maturity of

44:34

their elders is on display in the final scene

44:36

which is so gory

44:39

and so thrilling and so

44:41

breathtaking. Kendall

44:43

Roy, Ian. I guess

44:45

we've just moved on from protecting

44:47

horses. You know? Oh,

44:50

do you

44:53

feel like the California legislature weakened

44:55

the post-luck? I understand

44:57

that this is entirely CGI, yeah. It's, I

45:00

mean, as someone who watched real horses go

45:02

down watching luck, I could tell that this

45:04

is different. My only thing

45:06

was, it's the end of this episode. This is the one time

45:08

that I was a little, not out of it, but

45:10

like when

45:13

did they move the cannons to hit them? I

45:15

think earlier in the morning when they didn't,

45:18

like he was like, I don't know when

45:20

like Torin Agasson and Omi have their pregame

45:22

drink. Maybe that's the night before. So

45:25

then like maybe he goes out and he's just

45:27

like, let's like reverse everything here. I'm

45:30

fine with it, clearly, but also

45:32

for like dramatic purposes, of course. I think

45:34

I have

45:37

two different strains of thought that are colliding. One

45:39

is it's very clear that when you're at the

45:41

top of the power structure, you can have anything

45:43

done at any time for anyone that people are

45:45

willing to do it. But I did

45:47

feel like how many cannons did they have and they

45:49

did not strike me as the most like mobile. They're

45:53

actually, I think they are a little bit smaller, but

45:55

your point is taken that they, but the whole point

45:57

is like this pinpoint accuracy, I guess. And do you

45:59

think, Blackthorn was just like Blackthorn. You

46:01

did it. Now I'm thinking about you. Do you

46:04

think Blackthorn was just like, just

46:06

still kind of feeling? You're gonna give me a little, one

46:08

last dash of it. I'm

46:10

feeling pressure. This must be how you feel every

46:12

day you walk into the rewatchables taping. Maybe

46:15

I should just stop doing impressions, you know? How

46:18

dare you? But I just

46:20

mean I feel like Blackthorn must be like a

46:22

little bit in his still feeling like post-coital good

46:24

energies. And he's also like, who did I sleep

46:26

with? But he didn't notice. What's with the question

46:28

marks over this? But he didn't

46:30

show up being like, had five kittens. How?

46:34

Three. What happened to the other two? But he doesn't do this. Is no

46:36

one going to stop him again? That is his

46:39

main thing. Yeah. Great episode. Really

46:41

enjoyed it. So let's move on. I

46:44

wanted to touch on the gentleman. Do you think that when

46:46

you're living on the west side, you will

46:48

just sit on your deck and watch the rain? Like, did

46:50

you feel like, did you have any desire to have that

46:53

kind of like nature kinship that he seems to have? Yeah,

46:55

but if I did do that, I wouldn't want to do

46:57

it in California. Yeah.

47:00

You'd want to do it on Arrakis? What do you mean? Where

47:04

are you going? I don't know, like

47:07

Maine or whatever. Like I would, my back to

47:09

the land movement is going to be, is it

47:11

going to be outside of the Greater Los Angeles

47:13

area? Could someone- I'm not going to do it

47:15

in the valley. We are not on the Torinaga

47:18

level of like influence on our troops. But

47:20

if someone could take the shot of John

47:22

Blackthorne sitting, looking out over his

47:25

garden in the rain and Photoshop an

47:27

iPhone into his hand, where he's watching

47:29

like Andrew Huberman reels. Uh-huh. While

47:32

the rain is falling. So he's watching that instead.

47:34

No, I think we'd all know that it was

47:36

you. Like that's your ideal. It's a very specific

47:38

request, but I'm sure it'll be fulfilled. 12

47:41

years deep, everything we do is specific. That's

47:44

how we make great art. Dude, I

47:46

fucking love the gentlemen. You know,

47:48

like, and I say that with just like, I

47:50

know how many episodes this is. The

47:53

first episode is like 67 minutes. It's

47:55

long. It's a long one. Based on the 2019

47:57

Guy Ritchie movie with Matthew McConaughey.

48:00

and Charlie Hunnam and Michelle

48:02

Dockery and Hugh Grant in an outstanding Hugh

48:04

Grant turn. Did you see the

48:07

movie? So I want to ask you about this. So I have

48:09

not seen the movie. I am a relative newcomer to

48:12

the Guy Ritchie expanded universe. Oh, okay. And I'd

48:14

like to know, did I

48:16

need to watch the movie? No, you did not. It's not a

48:18

one to one or is it just like the same vibe? At

48:20

least so far I have not detected a real like, I

48:23

think that the premise of

48:25

the illegal weed industry in England is

48:27

largely the baseline of the film. I

48:30

was not shocked that there is a weed industry in the

48:32

UK. So this iteration

48:34

of the story, it stars Theo James

48:36

and Kai

48:38

Esco de Lario, who people may remember from

48:41

Skins, UK, and has been around for a

48:43

minute, but she's fantastic in this.

48:45

So the basic premise is as

48:47

follows. The show is about this guy named Edward,

48:49

who is a UN soldier when

48:51

we first meet him. He's actually the

48:53

second son of the Horniman family, an

48:55

aristocratic British family who have owned a

48:57

sprawling estate for hundreds of years and

48:59

gotten up to some shady business over

49:01

that period of time. The father

49:04

dies and it's all supposed to go to

49:06

coked up twat Freddy. I

49:08

say that pretty much quoting, but

49:10

it instead goes to Eddie. There's also

49:12

a daughter named Chuckles who is told in the

49:14

will that she is to

49:17

sail around the world and marry a man.

49:19

Well, she gets a boat as long as

49:21

she sails around the world within six months.

49:23

And marries a man. No, she gets an

49:25

allowance of a thousand pounds a week until

49:28

she marries a man. Yes. Eddie also

49:30

inherits Jeff, a muscle bound groundsman and

49:32

a business relationship with Suzy Glasses, played

49:34

by Kai Esco de Lario. But Jeff

49:36

is played by Vinnie Jones, so I

49:38

bet he has no secrets or physical

49:40

prowess. Exactly. Who is

49:42

running a weed business underneath the

49:44

grounds of the estate, throw in

49:46

a scouse cocaine cartel, a scammer

49:48

named Sticky Pete, and a mysterious

49:50

rich American named Johnston with a

49:52

tea played by Giancarlo Esposito, who

49:55

has a wine drinking process that

49:57

I really want to ask Andy about. And

49:59

you've got a The Robes Gallery. This

50:01

show looks great. I think it has just

50:03

enough rich-y-isms in terms of the

50:05

filmmaking to keep you on your toes and

50:07

keep you engaged. There's just

50:10

like a zest and a panache to

50:12

the dialogue that I loved in the movie and I

50:14

love in the show. It is

50:17

like just an absolute romp,

50:19

honestly. Like it's violent, it's profane,

50:22

it's well done. I love

50:25

the pitch that everyone in the

50:27

show is singing from. I fucking love

50:29

the guy playing Freddy, I think he's on Love Sick. He's

50:32

amazing, Daniel Ames. He is

50:34

cooking, he is black-thorting out.

50:39

England just has such a deep bench of

50:41

these guys. You like this though. I

50:44

really like this and I

50:46

really, really liked it because

50:48

again, like in the light of this conversation we're

50:50

having, like if you want to make a gourmet

50:53

cheeseburger or a

50:56

gourmet pub grub, whatever the UK equivalent

50:58

would be, hire people who know

51:00

what they're doing and know how to have fun. This

51:02

is so light on its feet and

51:05

so grabby and so

51:07

confident that like it makes it look kind

51:09

of easy. And this is not

51:11

trying to be a prestige Sunday

51:13

night show, this is exactly what

51:16

it purports to be. Like this is a- It's

51:18

honestly, it reminds me of The Boys. Yes,

51:20

totally. Sure, yeah. And that

51:23

it is profane and violent,

51:27

and like The Boys, it's very well cast and it's

51:29

very clever. And I,

51:32

also I gotta give a shout out

51:34

to the former Mr. Madonna here because

51:36

all I could think of while watching the pilot, he

51:38

directed the first two I believe, is

51:40

the, what do you

51:43

call it, when Steve Coogan is playing Alan

51:45

Partridge and his face is floating and he

51:47

just says, liquid football. Because

51:51

everything is just so beautifully designed and

51:53

the camera moves so perfectly and every

51:55

thought is considered. And there's just these

51:58

little touches of wonderful. detail

52:00

like when when

52:02

Susie Glass is the Kais Kaudelario part

52:05

where she walks into the fish market

52:07

to confront the crime boss

52:09

who also is chopping up Peter Sarafinowicz, yeah.

52:12

He's chopping up hake and mackerel and

52:14

center and Peter Sarafinowicz. So that's

52:16

already positioning from a position of strength. She's

52:19

walking in her high heels in a fish market and

52:21

there's just a moment where she comes up against the

52:23

guy who's just mopping and

52:26

they sort of have a moment of collision and then

52:28

he pulls them up away. It's the tiniest moment but

52:30

in less expert hands you cut that for you know

52:32

and it tells the larger story. And

52:34

then there's like a delightful scene after that where it's

52:36

like her and Peter

52:38

Sarafinowicz's character are negotiating Freddie's

52:42

debt to this scouts

52:44

cocaine mob and it's got like

52:47

illustrations on screen and translations for

52:50

slang and it's like basically

52:52

like just so indulgent and so fun and

52:54

so so interesting to watch honestly. It's okay

52:57

to have people who look good and are

52:59

good at doing stuff. Like that is genre

53:01

entertainment at its finest. Yeah how about Theo

53:03

James man? So let's talk about Theo James

53:06

who I do have

53:08

a thought and we can maybe pump this forward

53:10

to the third season of White

53:12

Lotus conversation we'll inevitably be having next year.

53:14

Because I do feel like Mike one of

53:16

Mike White's secret talents is he just might

53:19

be a true core

53:21

talent vampire in that when he casts

53:23

you in White Lotus be careful because

53:25

I feel like he reaches into your

53:27

soul and exposes your best on

53:30

camera. I'm not saying these are who these people

53:32

really are but they're like essential on-camera selves to

53:34

the point where they're almost like withered husks when

53:36

they go back into the world. No one is

53:38

ever going to capture them at their best again.

53:41

I actually okay so go ahead. So I sometimes

53:43

wonder that. That said Theo James

53:46

is very handsome very

53:49

debonair with a kind

53:51

of a quiet menace and he's very charismatic

53:54

and he's the perfect it's

53:56

not that he's a cypher this he's a real character he's going

53:58

to be moving through this world. But like he

54:01

is also he he's almost

54:03

like an action figure being moved through

54:05

this crazy funhouse carnival ride Yeah,

54:08

and I think he's perfectly cast. It's

54:10

not asking too much and it's asking just

54:12

just enough. Yeah He's really good at walking

54:14

in a room and going what the fuck

54:17

Yes, or walk going into a room and

54:19

if somebody is like how is everything going?

54:21

He's like poorly. Yeah,

54:23

but he has like He's

54:26

a guy who is like done a lot of

54:28

um, like he was always like The

54:31

other hot guy in a YA movie for a

54:33

while And then I

54:35

think was like maybe gonna be this romantic

54:37

lead for a while But like there's only

54:39

so much so many romantic

54:41

leads left out there He

54:44

seems to have aged right into

54:46

his Like platonic ideal

54:49

age like mid 30s or whatever. He's

54:51

at right now. He's pushing 40 but

54:53

yes, and just having a little bit

54:55

of weather underneath of his eyes

54:57

and a little bit of like Seasoning

55:00

to his game. It's like

55:02

changed it and he's a believable like Aristocratic

55:05

stud but he's also like I bet this

55:07

guy can fight, you know, like his costumes

55:09

are just I was just wearing barber jackets

55:11

He's falling out of his barbers. He looks

55:13

great. But but let's also talk about the

55:16

The movie to TV thing. Yeah, one of

55:18

the things that's great about this I think

55:20

is that he is playing a more traditional

55:23

movie part in the sense that

55:25

I don't really care about his backstory

55:27

We're he's it we're introduced to him as he's a

55:29

UN peacekeeper who gets along with everybody.

55:31

Yeah fucking great Who everybody seems to

55:33

like grudgingly respect? Yeah, yeah And that that get done

55:35

with that so fast and that just sets the tone

55:37

for who he is on It's like when James Bond

55:39

walks into a fucking room and it's like, you know

55:41

how to play every card game You have an opinion

55:43

on every wine you have like it's like he is

55:46

just a Wikipedia of being a cool

55:48

guy But that's a movie character generally and one

55:50

of the best archetypes of movie character and that

55:52

like I just trust someone who is competent and

55:54

can move through a world that I know nothing

55:56

about Like done great and I love that and

55:58

I love the confidence with which they're just basically

56:01

setting up a movie story. The only thing that

56:03

I kind of, my

56:05

only pause in this, because I loved

56:08

this. I had a great time watching it. I'm going to watch

56:11

the rest of the season, was it is

56:13

quite long. There's

56:15

so many highs and it's moving, it's

56:17

moving, and it's moving. There's

56:20

like four episodes in the first episode. Exactly. Then when

56:23

we get to the chicken dance stuff at the end,

56:25

and it goes on for quite a long time, and

56:28

the outcome is quite clear relatively

56:30

early in that runtime, that was the first

56:32

time when I started to be like, oh,

56:35

is this going to run into a

56:37

kind of pacing problem that movie

56:40

people run into when they're like,

56:43

that'd be mad as a TV show, wouldn't it? You know what I

56:45

mean? Like, a

56:48

TV show you say. Never

56:50

heard of it. Now

56:53

you're being bashful. I'm bashful, I was thinking about it. I

56:55

was thinking about how they make a lot of the television

56:57

sets in the Japan, but I'm not going to do it.

57:00

Your point is well taken. I do think that also

57:02

there is a yes and quality of the storytelling where

57:05

it's like you get to the end of like, it

57:08

seems like Edward has fixed the problem,

57:10

and then very at the very last time, the

57:12

very last moment, the problem gets undone again and

57:14

he has a whole new set of problems. I

57:17

think that will probably continue to scale out. Yeah,

57:19

that's the show. Yeah, it's whether or not

57:21

you enjoy the vibe to me, and

57:24

I really enjoy the vibe. I love the vibe.

57:26

I thought it was such, it's just an elegantly

57:28

put together show. Like, even just that the confidence

57:30

of the opening, like, this is who this guy

57:32

is, and I don't know, let's go. And then

57:35

when he pulls up to the estate and the

57:37

title card is just transposed beautiful font yellow lettering

57:39

over this wild ass manner. Yeah. Like,

57:42

it's nice to be. So Richie has been with

57:44

us for, since we were in college really, started

57:46

with, you know, lock, stock and two smoking barrels

57:48

and snatch. And I think that

57:50

you could take a whole swath of

57:52

the movies he's done, but he has like a couple of

57:55

different strangely careers within his

57:57

career. Like he has his

57:59

own material. that he has sort of

58:01

generated that is largely about the

58:03

London underworld crime world. Then he also

58:05

has studio hired hand where he's done,

58:08

you know, short Combs movies and, you

58:10

know, the man from uncle. He did

58:12

the Aladdin movie. I did the Aladdin

58:14

movie. And then in recent years, he

58:17

has been incredibly prolific in this almost

58:19

like Robert Aldrich, like old school genre,

58:22

workman, like prolific genre

58:24

director. So he has

58:26

pumped out like the covenant and wrath of man and

58:28

like Operation Fortune, which is

58:31

this kind of Daffy Jason Statham Bond

58:33

style paper. So but like, he's incredibly

58:35

prolific. He's got the League of Extraordinary

58:37

Gentlemen coming soon. And then also is

58:40

already like making another Gyllenhaal movie, I

58:42

think. Well, he also has made he

58:44

made an action movie with John Krasinski

58:47

and Natalie Portman, like Fountain

58:49

of Youth. Oh, yeah, right. That's, that's what

58:51

he's moved on to. Yeah, he's very busy.

58:53

Yes. So, and in

58:56

the meantime, it was funny, what was like, oh,

58:58

I was just watching, like, you know, he has

59:00

like, the aesthetic of

59:02

Ed, of Edward is

59:05

Richie, like with this, this refined

59:07

aggression, this likes the fights, but

59:09

also loves of hound, you know,

59:11

hounds, chases of boxes. Well, and

59:14

an 82 Bordeaux. Yeah,

59:16

exactly. So it's like, I like to go out

59:18

and watch underground boxing, but also drink incredibly fine

59:21

wine. I would be remiss if

59:23

I did not ask you about this one scene.

59:25

So John Krasinski, you know, just let last guy,

59:27

Richie we also were talking about him the other

59:29

week because he's announced as the director of the

59:31

the Donovan's the IP

59:34

related Ray Donovan companion

59:36

series is going to be the London version of

59:38

Fixers. And that just made me triply triply psych

59:40

now because I've not, as I've said many times,

59:42

like I think I saw Lock Stock and Two

59:44

Smoking Barrels. I don't know if I've seen anything

59:46

else ever. No, you've

59:49

never seen Snatch? No, you should. I guess I

59:51

should. I actually really like Rock and Rolla too.

59:53

I never saw any of these movies. And I

59:55

like Wrath of Man I was doing adult travel

59:57

baseball that time with the with

59:59

the fella. as you

1:00:01

and the rest of the nerds are in the cinema.

1:00:04

Okay. Um, anyway, my whole point, Oh,

1:00:06

you want to ask her at the scene? Well, before we get

1:00:08

to that, my whole point of going through his career was just

1:00:11

to say that in many ways he has been telling a variation

1:00:13

on the same story for most of his career

1:00:15

anyway, about the London underworld. So I think that

1:00:18

have like a 10 hour, you know,

1:00:20

very long kind of runway here

1:00:22

for that. It kind of makes sense. Whether or

1:00:25

not it's going to get repetitive or feel a little bit stale

1:00:27

by the end. I don't know, but like, I'm, I'm very excited

1:00:29

to check it out. There is a scene in the first episode.

1:00:32

John Carla Esposito shows up. He's this

1:00:34

mysterious guy named Stanley Johnston. He's

1:00:37

incredibly wealthy and incredibly refined.

1:00:40

Clearly has a lot of

1:00:43

admiration for British

1:00:45

upper class, I guess. Yeah. Seemingly. He also

1:00:47

has a helicopter. And a very particular way

1:00:49

of drinking wine that I wanted to ask

1:00:51

you about before we went, which involves him

1:00:53

essentially decanting it through a paper

1:00:56

filter, like a coffee. Yeah. Then

1:00:58

cleaning the bottle of all sediment, then

1:01:01

replacing the wine back in its

1:01:03

original housing to be enjoyed. Have

1:01:06

you ever heard of this? I've heard of this. Yes. I,

1:01:08

I'm going to be honest with our listeners. I, I

1:01:11

don't generally drink 40 year old red wines. So this

1:01:13

has never been particularly relevant to me. Okay. And my

1:01:15

life, you'd ask with like a, a 17 shard.

1:01:21

Like a California Roussin for like 22. Yeah. And

1:01:25

break out the Mr. Coffee filters. Everyone, this

1:01:28

is going to take a few minutes. No,

1:01:30

I mean, I think that there's, cause people have seen

1:01:32

decanting before and that the idea of that is to

1:01:34

let some aerate the wine a little bit and, um,

1:01:37

wine, there's sediment in wine,

1:01:40

the older it gets. And I

1:01:42

think there's a, there's a spirited debate

1:01:44

about whether the sediment is central to the

1:01:47

character of the wine. Like if

1:01:49

you're drinking an older wine. Yeah. Should you be

1:01:51

drinking that is part of it. So what are

1:01:53

you taking out when you filter things out? And

1:01:55

also, are you affecting the flavor profile by putting

1:01:57

it through paper? You know, like all these different

1:01:59

things that. Some people care about more than others. So

1:02:02

I think, based on my deep

1:02:04

knowledge of Guy Ritchie personally and professionally, as well

1:02:06

as on screen, that he is

1:02:08

telling us something about Stanley Johnson in this

1:02:10

scene. OK. Precise. Well,

1:02:13

that he's precise, but also he doesn't like things

1:02:15

to be messy. He likes to

1:02:17

control situations, and that he

1:02:20

might not, in fact, have the

1:02:22

ability to walk the walk of,

1:02:25

what is it, refined aggression? Refined aggression. And maybe

1:02:27

he's more refined than aggression. John Carle, let's just

1:02:29

do it. I really like to play a fucking

1:02:31

slob. I wonder this. Thank you for asking this,

1:02:33

because you mentioned the boys. And

1:02:35

I'm trying to think. I imagine that the

1:02:38

history of Hollywood is just marked with examples

1:02:40

that I have no access to now, because,

1:02:42

again, cleared my cash. But of

1:02:45

characters who are like, I found my lane. I'm

1:02:47

just going to play it for the rest of

1:02:49

my career. Yes, all character actors. Well, not just

1:02:51

character actors, but what's his name from Sydney Green

1:02:54

Street? Just like, I almost did it. I'm

1:02:56

not going to do it. But he's

1:02:59

that he plays the same part, basically,

1:03:02

in Maltese Falcon and Casablanca,

1:03:04

more or less, because that's what he was brought in to do.

1:03:06

So I feel like it's very well paying for John

1:03:08

Carle's positions to be very precise man in a suit

1:03:10

with menace. But this at

1:03:13

least had a little more pep in it's step. I

1:03:15

think him on the boys, I'm like, you're

1:03:17

just wearing Gus rings. There's also

1:03:19

a feeling of that, where it's like they shot

1:03:21

for three days of him standing in Vaught Industries,

1:03:23

whereas with this, I think hopefully there will

1:03:25

be a little bit more juice. It also seems like an

1:03:27

incredibly fun thing to make, because you're just playing billiards in

1:03:29

a $10,000 suit. I

1:03:32

am so here for just the lifestyle

1:03:34

porn of all this, and the Frippery,

1:03:36

and the suits, and the billiards. Like,

1:03:38

yeah, let's go. Money well spent, Bello

1:03:40

Bivisoria. That's all I got to say.

1:03:42

I agree. This is a good show. Do

1:03:44

this. TV. That's

1:03:47

what I thought. You were worried, though. I wasn't

1:03:49

worried. I actually, the second it started, I was

1:03:51

like, Greerwell's going to like this. Because in the

1:03:53

opening moments, he's keeping the peace, as opposed to

1:03:55

murdering someone. So you knew that I wouldn't. No,

1:03:57

as soon as Freddy. starts

1:04:00

talking during the will reading I was like Andy is

1:04:02

going to really enjoy this. Oh it's so good that

1:04:04

scene. Also I will say speaking of Freddie, you know

1:04:06

our guy Freddie Fox shows up this season? Edward

1:04:09

Fox? If Edward Fox, Freddie Fox's

1:04:11

father, plays the dying

1:04:13

patriarch. So yeah does Freddie Fox show up in

1:04:15

the... Freddie Fox is on the Wikipedia as a

1:04:18

cast member of the show. Yeah which we haven't

1:04:20

seen yet. So I don't know when or

1:04:22

for how long but the fact that our guy, young

1:04:25

bumpy Knuckles from the Slow Horses universe is

1:04:27

on the show makes me

1:04:29

really excited. Thanks to Kaya for her

1:04:31

real estate insight and also

1:04:33

her production know-how and thanks

1:04:35

to our listeners. We recorded this on a Tuesday. It'll

1:04:38

be going up, I mean we could put it up a

1:04:40

little bit earlier if you wanted to but this will be

1:04:43

our second episode of the week so if we missed anything

1:04:45

in between Tuesday and Thursday culturally speaking. Or like breaking news.

1:04:48

Yeah but like what constitutes breaking news in our world you

1:04:50

know? Here's the only thing I'm worried

1:04:52

about what we just laid down to tape is

1:04:54

that I did make like a sort of flippant

1:04:56

reference to the missing princess and

1:04:58

then like what if the truth comes out

1:05:00

by Thursday? Do you think that's possible? Do

1:05:02

you think we'll know? Will our listeners know

1:05:05

more on Thursday than we know now? If

1:05:07

anything develops in the next like I don't

1:05:09

know 24-ish hours I will record a solo

1:05:11

agenda. That's awesome. Can we just on the...

1:05:13

like we give you full produceorial permission to

1:05:15

just drop in. Let me tell you something

1:05:17

she has it anyway. I know but I

1:05:19

wanted like I wanted an audio record. I

1:05:21

know I have to stop her. I consent

1:05:23

is what I'm saying. I consent. Keep

1:05:26

us up to date. It's

1:05:28

funny that you think that

1:05:31

this international conspiracy is hinges on whether or

1:05:33

not you make fun of it on a...

1:05:35

It's gonna be wrapped up. Yeah. No no

1:05:37

I'm okay you just a misunderstanding where my

1:05:39

values are like I will go on this

1:05:41

mic and be like wow I can't believe

1:05:43

Blackthorn slept with Torinaga. Yeah. Like that was

1:05:45

wild. Like I don't care about getting that

1:05:47

wrong. But I am... But Kate Middleton. I

1:05:49

never want... well she's Kate to us still. Yeah. From

1:05:52

the New York days. I never want to

1:05:54

get a single detail wrong about her because

1:05:56

late night pierogies at Fisselka. Also, why

1:05:58

belonging would are different. Yes, so

1:06:00

think about that. Yes, and and and and you and

1:06:03

I might be there at some point soon And then I

1:06:05

don't want to get nabbed at the airport.

1:06:07

It's right, right? I

1:06:09

don't want right Have

1:06:11

a great weekend everybody I

1:06:16

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