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on Spotify. This.

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Episode is brought to you by Hulu.

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Hey there. You. Know that who

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guessed it, Who. Has movies, This

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error and or driving conditions always.

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Drive. Safely. It's

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worse. Than

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I am law now mile.

1:29

Walk into the Watch. My name is Chris

1:31

Ryan. I am an editor at. High

1:33

high.com and joining me in

1:36

the studio advantage. You

1:39

think is just a website, not like an

1:42

app. I think it has like a huge

1:44

umbrella of property. pseudo I: It's owned by

1:46

Teemu? Yeah, I'm

1:49

really like team or Talk this week etti it's great

1:51

to see or hear with guy. It's. Ah,

1:53

It is Thursday Thursday. What it is

1:55

there's there's. a great show for you

1:57

guys today because we are doing so.

2:00

Mr and Mrs. Smith special we have of the concrete

2:02

or and show runner for Justice loan on the pod

2:04

today and she was awesome! Talk to her for about.

2:06

Forty. Minutes about the entire season. There are

2:09

spoilers so if you have not completed the

2:11

first series of than what's wrong with you

2:13

had enough time you have even I finished

2:15

the season even crush The tape grew known

2:17

as savoring. so would you love me? We

2:19

chat a little bit about Mister and Miss

2:21

Smith which I think is probably the as

2:24

you said your favorite shows the years so

2:26

far. Yeah I'll take for fab fifteen or

2:28

less Eyes eighty Five Fifteen yesterday with Valentine's

2:30

Day. Hope you had a nice when I

2:32

did. Did you see I drove the L

2:34

A X not for flight that is in

2:36

hack. The third love my King's English at

2:38

the Lucky Ones in bumper to bumper was

2:40

what were you trying to figure out what

2:42

his in fly meant? Ah finally did have

2:44

one of those. I think it's just like

2:46

cellphone lot at L Se Do is no

2:48

romance for when I was a kid and

2:50

that be driving to like thirtieth street station

2:52

and I was assigned it'd kiss and ride

2:54

or kiss and fly I was. Tantalizing.

2:57

I had no idea what those words in

2:59

that order meant. On a public Texas and

3:01

they get on a plane. That

3:03

wasn't what this is what a dose

3:05

of do with was just smoothened commute.

3:07

Ah what adults do is they talk

3:09

about the marketing for sent us informed

3:12

west as you and me what a

3:14

life we've chosen for. Saw yesterday Valentine's

3:16

day Marvel ah finally made official what

3:18

had been vocal the of the rumored

3:20

cast for Fantastic for er nach Edmunds.

3:23

Reboot: In a relaunching

3:25

of of this. I don't

3:27

would you say like one of the sort

3:29

of Mount Rushmore titles in the Marvel? It's

3:32

the George Washington is the first Marvel comics

3:34

that ago and fantastic for number One Rabe

3:36

release this like kind of. Charming.

3:39

Yes, it is. Valentine's. Day

3:41

greeting card. Postcard that is

3:43

an illustration of the cast

3:45

I in. Our. Describe it

3:47

in a kind of Jetsons motif. So

3:49

this was remarkable I think because and

3:51

is so people know The Eight or

3:53

Pascal's can be playing Reed Richards. Less

3:56

Kirby playing Sue Storm. Joseph.

3:58

Quinn I'm watching for. The guy does.

4:00

He really committed to saying their names. Jonny.

4:03

Quest. Storm. Storm

4:06

whose brother okay add ever must bacharach

4:08

front of the watch as. The

4:10

thing. Aka. Mister.

4:13

Knoxville. Ben Grimm

4:15

of at the Pride of Ganzi. Three come

4:17

on and it's is cute little domestic scene

4:19

of these people hanging out and it's like

4:22

got a pink and blue kind of color

4:24

story. Tell me all about it. Artist Wesley

4:26

Bird did this beautiful concept art so much

4:28

to. I think this is interesting because I

4:30

years. Always misses for

4:32

three bird ak buster rocks. Distractions

4:35

occurs on the buyers was only

4:38

sir is. So.

4:41

This. Is interesting. The other week

4:44

when Joanna was was I ably subbing for

4:46

you We talked about this like it, it's

4:48

your little unprecedented because this task was known.

4:50

I don't mean like the industry wags new.

4:52

I mean like. All. The other

4:54

things being said on the Facebook founder if it

4:56

were like well as a curvy of get it

4:59

like it seemed fairly well known. And

5:01

it was truth and was confirmed. All the

5:03

cast members who have social media posted this

5:05

image is interesting to me that they they

5:07

took their time with this and I think

5:10

ultimately that's probably a good thing. I

5:12

also think that. With. This announcement

5:14

and want to put too much into it but we

5:16

are covering it the way as if it's a major

5:18

thing. This. Image makes

5:21

me remember. That Kevin

5:23

Fi geez. I've. Calling.

5:25

Card with it. He understood.

5:28

The. Marvel characters on like a granular

5:30

level, he could communicate them. You know,

5:33

not Iron Man with a torture backstory,

5:35

but rich playboy as a broken heart.

5:38

And then make the movie about that and

5:40

then obviously everything up more complicated. this image

5:42

is. Warm and bright.

5:45

Lovely And it's highlighting these characters as

5:47

what they are which is a family.

5:49

that is what has made them unique

5:51

Id comic books. Yes you can get

5:53

their surname right because basically understood them.

5:56

so the other thing that the same

5:58

it seems to confirm. There's

6:00

something that we've I think many people for it

6:02

is rumors. It does seem to

6:04

be period. Yes, this is very

6:06

kind of like Go Go sixties

6:08

I Calgary imagery. Which. Is

6:10

what we had a barber Futurism which is

6:12

kind of vague. Their gossip that we had

6:14

heard the Marvel studios looking like the Cinerama

6:17

Dome the way it's written at the bottom,

6:19

the name change to the Fantastic Four as

6:21

opposed to would you always were lobbying for

6:23

which was fantastic for her to another L

6:25

for you. I

6:28

think these are all very good signs.

6:30

I also wanted to you just as

6:32

your friends. Ah, and as someone who

6:35

is now explained or deadpool to more

6:37

than one adult woman a high. I

6:39

wanted to explain that that robot in

6:41

the corner is Herbie. Yeah, And.

6:44

You want a Seder said I that Herbie stands

6:46

for a humanoid experimental robot be type integrated electronic

6:48

for we do not have a voice actor for

6:51

her Bs. And us or you're at

6:53

the ring know I started cast it out. buried

6:55

yoga maybe? Did you know why? He's.

6:57

Doing commercials do now I the as he

6:59

did. You see that I'm. A

7:01

summer hotlines use down bad. That

7:03

well, death. He sees as

7:06

you like people from. The. Uk

7:08

Ireland like that area there now with

7:10

the best spices that affairs i you

7:12

don't follow some of the summer the.

7:15

Instagram. Council Life. I found none

7:17

of them. which is Iris? dudes just out

7:19

on the weekend get into a curry bags.

7:22

Oh we talked about a third sleep in

7:24

their curry back to bury. didn't back in

7:26

his bag at sixty seventy. it has the

7:28

bomb before, but it it seemed like perhaps

7:30

he had had. Not. This potency

7:33

level of the bomb as he's like in is tagged

7:35

out by the end of this thing. Could.

7:37

You do that show not have any was assets

7:39

for could you do that? Ah. I. Don't

7:41

I would wanted to be on hot ones

7:43

I guess I am a don't think that

7:45

I've. I've. Register on that

7:47

level of celebrity. I'm like long

7:50

form podcast is our how yeah

7:52

I do feel like. I.

7:55

See, I just think it would make me incredibly uncomfortable. One

7:57

thing that's just amazing as he seems to be it suggesting

7:59

that he is. literally gotten off the plane from

8:02

overseas to do this show. I

8:04

cannot imagine getting off of a

8:06

long flight and immediately taking down

8:08

a dozen wings with varying levels of

8:10

scoville. What about, but remember when you

8:12

were like, I am the true detective in the night

8:14

country because you once flew to England and it was

8:17

getting dark? Oh no, being in

8:19

the permanent darkness is fine. I just don't know

8:21

if I could have the bomb as my first

8:23

meal outside of it. The only reason

8:25

I brought up Herbie the Robot was to

8:27

say two things. Again, this is

8:29

reinforcing an idea that I think is a good one

8:32

for the movie that it is embracing some of the

8:34

campier elements of the characters. The second thing

8:36

is Herbie was not

8:38

a comic book character. Herbie was created for the,

8:40

I think it's the Hanna-Barbera cartoon. Hmm. Um,

8:44

in the, maybe it wasn't Hanna-Barbera, but when Fantastic

8:46

Four, they made a cartoon in 1978, you

8:49

clearly did never heard this rumor. But I was, I

8:51

remember that there was a rumor about this cartoon. I

8:53

was one when it came out, so that's everybody relaxed.

8:56

Okay. So there's a story that,

8:58

that Human Torch, no

9:01

one would allow the Human Torch to go on television because they

9:03

were worried kids would light themselves on fire. I

9:06

mean, honestly it was the 70s, who knows? Kids

9:08

were encouraged to light themselves on fire. The

9:10

truth is apparently that, uh, is much more

9:13

banal than apparently like Johnny

9:15

Quest, the Human Torch. This

9:17

is going to be a long two years from this movie, a

9:19

year before this movie comes out. Uh,

9:21

apparently with optioned elsewhere. Uh, yeah.

9:24

Like the Animal Left or Cleary Starling thing. It's

9:26

exactly that. You've done it again. So,

9:29

uh, you know, what can

9:31

I say? The Ultimate Skeptic was charmed by this. I

9:33

will just say that this, this

9:35

broadcasts more personality than most Marvel films

9:38

have had in the last five years.

9:40

Yes. And fool me a

9:42

hundred times, shame on me. Like for

9:44

all I know, this can come out and it

9:46

will look like, uh, it will look like

9:48

Ant-Man but three and it will look silly and, and.

9:50

But look, like think about this again, think about it,

9:52

not just in a vacuum, but think about it in

9:55

terms of reactive to the other things that they've done

9:57

and all we know about Thunderbolts.

10:00

Is this torture development process

10:02

where they every so often announce another

10:05

person who's joining the squad? Because there

10:07

is no fixed Thunderbolts. They're just like

10:09

well David Harbor really popped in black

10:11

widow Let's throw him in there. Let's

10:13

you know, they keep adding and adding They

10:16

clearly took the time to get four individuals who

10:18

are a definitively under

10:20

contract Be

10:22

willing to share stuff on social media, but see

10:24

we're going to be a part of this in

10:28

Play acting as a family for the long haul. Yeah,

10:30

so good job. Good job. Good job, everybody and good

10:32

job to the folks

10:34

over at Amazon Donald Glover

10:36

Francesca Sloan Meyer skynet like Jeff

10:38

Bezos Jeff Bezos Jen

10:41

Salk, you know sure just

10:43

an incredible television show that we're about

10:45

to talk about mr. Mrs. Smith So eight episodes about

10:48

an hour each all went up as a binge Andy and

10:50

I've been kind of piecemeal discussing it over the last Couple

10:52

of weeks. I guess we get

10:54

into a lot of our feelings about it with Francesca

10:56

so I don't want to belabor the point but a

10:59

deeply satisfying series I feel

11:04

Two extreme feelings one. I think

11:07

it was exceptional. I think it was

11:09

exceptional on a Practical and production level

11:11

and we do talk a little bit about that. I'm just

11:13

in terms of like Everybody walks

11:15

into TV being like I'm gonna make a eight episode

11:17

movie and we're gonna do x y and z thing

11:19

and these dudes Not only went to Lake Como, but

11:21

they shot one of the more plausibly Exciting

11:24

and gripping cinematic action set pieces in

11:26

a while. They did it. They

11:28

did wild stuff on the streets of New York They made me

11:30

only want to make sure it's like that and I'm like, I

11:32

know you haven't seen John Wick for which one is that I?

11:36

Wasn't saying it was better than movies, but I'm saying

11:38

it's better than action on TV. Okay, I understand I

11:41

was just fucking how can I just start with for

11:43

I would get lost? Do

11:47

you think do you think that's why

11:49

they added the thud a fantastic four because there are

11:52

people who think it's a sequel to? The long-running musical

11:54

the fantastic and it's the fourth one. Yeah. Oh, you

11:56

got it. Yeah, I really hold people's hands the

11:59

other thing about this in terms

12:01

of what it did the show in terms of

12:03

character work and deep emotional stuff and making a

12:05

show about relationships the way they are often experienced

12:08

now but also having a lot of fun in

12:10

the margins. But I'm also having

12:12

that feeling of is anyone

12:14

else connecting with this? It's

12:17

fallen into the prime video hole where

12:19

it could well be that tens of millions of people

12:21

are enjoying this and checking it out and finding it

12:23

on their own time and on their own schedule but

12:26

it is a strange feeling to walk

12:28

around and be like, ah they

12:31

got one. This is what I love in TV and

12:33

I'm so excited for everyone for making it and just

12:35

not knowing what they're planning.

12:38

It's a great marriage of art

12:40

and commerce I think. It

12:45

is a really really tasteful, stylish,

12:47

intelligent, provocative take

12:51

on a piece of IP owned by Amazon.

12:54

And that is honestly the most

12:56

you can ask for right now. And

12:59

I thought that this show was

13:01

at once incredibly pleasant to

13:03

watch and incredibly like the vibes

13:06

were really great, the clothes, the interior design

13:08

and tons of people have talked about this.

13:11

But I also thought it made me think about

13:13

work, made me think about relationships, made me think

13:15

about I guess God at the end. Did you

13:17

think about real estate? Because that's ultimately what

13:19

everything is about in New York real estate. I can't

13:21

imagine what my wife would

13:24

do if I just said and she tried to

13:26

buy a cottage. Oh I didn't mean international. I

13:28

meant like I was referring to the very end.

13:30

There are so many hurdles, hoops you have to

13:32

jump through too if you're trying to buy overseas

13:34

property. Wait so do you mean like what she would do?

13:37

Do you think she'd be delighted? No. She

13:41

doesn't like it when I change the

13:43

way I make the bed. You know it's like. Do you

13:45

try making it the other way? So you get in the

13:47

long way? No but I think I have

13:49

a kind of attitude about it where it's like it's important

13:51

that like it looks neat but since we get in it

13:54

like how much like

13:56

cosmetic stuff do we have to do to the making

13:58

of the bed like folding the sheet down. over

14:00

the quilt kind of thing. Are you a big

14:02

like many many many many pillows guy? Do you

14:04

live the hotel? Many many many pillows. Do you

14:07

live that hotel life? I

14:10

use one pillow for my head and

14:13

one pillow for my knees because I have

14:15

a bad back. That's different

14:17

because you know people long term listeners know

14:19

about the time that I watch. Yeah,

14:22

I've evolved since then from my

14:25

long night. Your Nosferatu style. I don't

14:28

know why. It was

14:30

so much easier back then. I could literally lean my head

14:32

up against like a subway window and fall asleep for five

14:34

minutes. You crossed your arms over your

14:36

chest like Boris Karloff and you were gone. I gave

14:38

this in a hotel room where Andy and I were

14:40

staying in Chinatown before we interviewed the Scottish post rock

14:42

band Maguaia. No, incorrect. Oh.

14:45

I don't remember how you fell asleep that night. Oh,

14:47

this is a Comic Con. This is a Comic Con

14:50

in San Diego. We shared a hotel room. Haven't done

14:52

it since. Have we not?

14:55

You want to this weekend? Yeah. The

14:58

same hotel room. No, let's go back to

15:00

your COVID hotel. Let's go to Burbank. Another

15:06

friend of ours, I won't name names, but she was

15:08

telling me that she did the same thing when she

15:10

had COVID and her family didn't. She went to the

15:12

same hotel and then was like scurrying to the lobby,

15:14

like wearing four masks to get like water

15:16

bottles or whatever. And there was a convention. She

15:19

was getting in the elevator. And

15:21

I feel like when you know that you're the

15:23

COVID hotel for the greater Los Angeles area, like

15:26

maybe that can- Maybe you should play into it.

15:28

Yeah, exactly. That's right. Like maybe build

15:30

an indoor water park or something just to kind of seal

15:32

the deal. Why don't we

15:34

get into our interview with Francesca because it's a

15:36

hefty one and she was so generous with her

15:38

time. We will be back on Sunday

15:40

night to talk about the

15:43

finale of True Detective. And

15:46

then we can't wait to talk to people then. Until then,

15:48

we were produced by Kai McMullen and we'll talk to you

15:50

soon. Have a great weekend, Branskies. Watch Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

15:54

This episode of The Watch is brought to you by Mint Mobile.

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for details. This episode is

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brought to you by Hulu. Hey there. You

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know that Hulu has movies, right? Well,

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if you didn't, we're here to tell you, Hulu

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to Hulu if you like movies because you

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guessed it. Hulu has movies. This

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episode is brought to you by State Farm. This episode is brought to you

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by State Farm. You might say all

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Farm is there. Welcome to the Pants Cast,

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brought to you by Lululemon, a show about

17:22

all things pants. My guest is Matt James, former

17:24

NCAA player and Lululemon ABC pant enthusiast. Hi,

17:26

great to be here. Matt, tell us all about

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those ABC pants. The comfort? They're like the pants

17:31

I put on when I don't want to

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wear pants. Versatility? You could wear these pants to

17:35

a wedding, but you could also wear these

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to a cookout. And what about style? They're like

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if casual and cool had a baby. Well,

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it's clear why you're an ABC enthusiast. Pleasure having

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you and your pants on the show. Thanks for

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having us. Find the shockingly comfortable ABC pants

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at lululemon.com. We're

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so, so psyched to be joined by Francesca Sloan,

17:56

who's the co-creator and showrunner of Mr. and Mrs.

17:58

Smith, which I think is probably. our favorite show

18:00

of the year, albeit, I know we're in

18:02

February, but like we can say it. A little dig when

18:04

you say that. We're on February 15th. We

18:06

could stop potting now. And that

18:09

would be our number one. Yeah. You did

18:11

it. Francesca, thanks for joining the watch. Yeah,

18:13

thank you so much for having me and thanks for

18:15

loving the show so much. It really means a lot.

18:17

It really means a lot to me. We

18:19

have to, we have a lot of questions about the finale

18:21

and about the season as a whole, the creation of the

18:23

show. But I did read that you are also from Philadelphia

18:25

and we just need you to confirm or deny this before

18:28

we get started. Oh, I

18:30

am so truly, absolutely from

18:32

Philadelphia. Yeah. No wonder we liked the

18:34

show. It's a clear reason now. Now

18:38

we felt like it was speaking to us. The

18:41

Pennsylvania joke was a

18:43

little, that was like my M Night

18:45

Shyamalaning. Yeah. Your

18:48

M Night Shyamalaning would be moving back to

18:50

Philly and getting courtside Sixers tickets, right? Yeah,

18:52

that's true. That's more like long term goals.

18:54

Or finding out that Jane was a ghost

18:57

all along. Yeah. That was good. Yeah.

19:00

Season two. Yeah, that's what we want.

19:02

So specifically for the finale,

19:04

and obviously if you're listening to this, we are going

19:06

to be spoiling the entirety of the first season of

19:08

Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I have to start here. Francesca,

19:10

you tilled the cat. This

19:13

violates the number one rule of

19:15

modern screenwriting, which as many people

19:17

know, is captured in the

19:19

book literally called Save the Cat. Can

19:22

you defend this decision? No,

19:24

I cannot. But I'll try. You

19:28

know, we talked about this

19:30

early, early days in the writer's room,

19:32

and we just needed to get to

19:34

this place where we could actually

19:37

buy, and they might at least

19:39

attempt to try and kill each

19:41

other based on sort of this

19:43

like crucial misunderstanding. And the

19:45

only thing that could really get us there that

19:47

made any real sense was unfortunately to take

19:49

Max out. So brutal, but it kind of

19:52

just felt like it story wise, it

19:54

felt the most honest. I love

19:56

cats, but better cats than Beverly, you know, better

19:58

cats than Beverly. That seems like that's what the

20:00

option was, right? Like that's in play as well,

20:02

yeah. Exactly, exactly.

20:07

I thought that the finale was so awesome

20:09

just because my favorite part

20:11

as obvious I think for a lot of

20:13

people as well was the truth serum slash

20:15

MDMA scene, which I thought it was really

20:17

just like an incredible narrative

20:20

engine to get these people to

20:22

finally be honest about themselves and

20:24

how they feel to one another.

20:27

But I was curious for you, the entire

20:29

season is this balancing B-MAC where you're not,

20:33

you're having these people talking in these incredibly

20:35

natural ways about each other, but not giving

20:37

a lot of expository background information. So

20:40

when you finally have these people under the

20:42

influence and they're kind of talking

20:44

openly about one another, where did you wanna

20:46

sort of draw the line as

20:49

far as how much they are gonna actually say

20:51

to each other there? Yeah,

20:53

that's a great question. That was the

20:55

first thing that I came up with for the

20:57

entire show was the truth serum component

21:00

because I thought how great it would

21:02

be to sort of have these people

21:04

sort of being cagey and then giving

21:07

us this release and giving

21:09

them an opportunity even as actors

21:11

to have that release too. And,

21:14

but in terms of how far it went, it was

21:16

sort of a big conversation back and

21:19

forth and even changed a lot

21:21

once Maya came into the

21:23

fold, the whole

21:25

Japanese component really

21:27

shifted. Initially

21:30

that story about the

21:33

pancakes with the pedophile that

21:37

we sort of reveal in the pilot is

21:39

actually based on an

21:41

anecdote from Donald's life. Okay.

21:44

And I just, when I heard that

21:46

story, I actually, I had the reaction,

21:49

oh wow, this really says everything about a

21:51

young person to have that sort of brazen

21:54

feeling. And

21:56

I was talking to some of the writers in

21:58

the room to a way which happened to

22:01

be Asian and then even Maya about

22:03

it. And that actually,

22:05

something like that would have terrified them based

22:07

on their upbringing and based on how they

22:09

sort of floated around in the world.

22:12

And so I thought, oh, how interesting could

22:14

it be then if she's trying to act

22:16

like this person who would have no problem

22:19

with that, but actually there's

22:21

this vulnerability about her that she was

22:23

actually terrified the entire time. And

22:26

then as that kind of came into play, the

22:28

rest of the truth serum sequence felt like it

22:30

had to live in that sandbox in

22:33

terms of what we're learning about them,

22:35

where it feels very character driven and

22:37

very specific. And then hopefully that can

22:39

transcend into something a little bit more

22:42

universal. You know, so for instance, John's

22:45

asthma and that actually being

22:47

anxiety and what does that mean for him

22:49

as a man? What does that mean for

22:51

him specifically as a black

22:54

man? What does that mean specifically for

22:56

John, Donald playing John?

22:59

So as specific as we could possibly get

23:01

that felt like the right place. Now with

23:03

that said, we cut about,

23:05

I don't know, that

23:08

scene was really, really. Yeah.

23:10

Yeah. So Donald and I

23:13

sort of just went back and forth and

23:15

just let everything pour out and kind of

23:17

overrode intentionally. And then we just sort of

23:19

allowed the performances and in the, in

23:22

post, decide like what really needed to

23:24

stick and what really needed to go. But it was

23:26

a lot. It was a very, very long scene. So

23:29

much of being a showrunner is a wild

23:31

balancing act. And I wanted to stay where

23:33

you were with that final scene in terms

23:36

of the balancing act between the highly specific

23:38

and also the broadly universal general. And

23:41

because that was such a remarkable tightrope act

23:43

throughout the season, you have characters who are

23:45

play acting as people. They are not under

23:48

fake names. You intentionally

23:50

give us bits and pieces of them

23:52

throughout like the story you're referring to.

23:55

But you also keep some things very vague and

23:57

yet somehow made us feel very connected to these characters.

24:00

as individual people. Can you talk a little bit

24:02

broadly, in terms of your role as showrunner, running

24:04

the writers, how you did that balancing act? When

24:06

did you know when to push things forward, in

24:09

terms of this is Michael and Alana, versus when

24:11

to push things forward as this is John and

24:13

Jane, and a lot of married people might recognize

24:15

that these scenarios, not the ones with the guns,

24:17

but the other ones? You

24:21

know, I think one

24:23

of the first things that we

24:25

wanted to talk about was who

24:28

these people were before they

24:30

arrived to each other in

24:33

that brownstone. And

24:36

what were they missing, and really,

24:38

why were they this lonely in

24:40

the first place? And so

24:42

when you start there, we really

24:44

understood that they both felt like

24:46

failures in the world, and

24:48

if they're both quietly feeling like

24:51

they are failures, then there's

24:53

automatically sort of this bond between

24:55

them that they are filling

24:57

each other up to be something greater

24:59

than what they were before they entered

25:01

that brownstone. And so long as

25:03

we were sort of staying on the track of

25:06

that, I kind of feel like the

25:08

rest of it, we did not overthink. We

25:10

sort of just then started allowing them to

25:12

become who they were as John and Jane,

25:16

and sort of let

25:19

them relieve themselves of who

25:21

they were in the past, and those things

25:23

just sort of organically kept creeping back in,

25:25

because we knew that Jane was this guarded

25:27

individual who was falling in love for the

25:30

very first time. We already established that John

25:32

is sort of this mama boy who wants

25:34

to live up to who his father was,

25:36

who was this great heroic person, and sort

25:38

of this hero, and that he never really

25:41

felt like he could fill those steps. And

25:44

so knowing who they were in that sense,

25:46

and then letting them play against each other

25:48

and let their relationships sort of dictate how

25:50

they were growing or moving backwards because of

25:53

one another, it just sort of then

25:55

happened really naturally to tell that story without

25:57

thinking too hard about how Michael,

26:00

versus John or Alana

26:02

versus Jane. One of

26:04

my favorite things about the

26:07

way the season is

26:09

structured is the way that

26:11

you effortlessly sort of move through time.

26:14

So when these episodes start, there are allusions

26:16

to how long it's been. Maybe

26:19

there's several missions or there's an anecdote

26:21

about something that they've done together that

26:23

obviously happened in between the episodes. What

26:25

was the timeline like in the writers

26:27

room? Is there a whiteboard with a

26:30

master chronology of this? I'm

26:32

curious how you were able

26:34

to indicate time passing without actually

26:36

explicitly having seven days later or

26:38

two months later. Yeah,

26:41

we definitely... I'm glad that

26:43

that's been reading and I'm glad that you're

26:45

appreciating that. We absolutely did.

26:48

It was vaguely to us about a year and

26:51

it felt like it should feel

26:53

like these two people, whether they're aware of

26:55

it or not, are sort of adrenaline junkies.

26:57

So if they do start actually falling in

26:59

love, it will be this flash in the

27:01

pan romance of things escalating very quickly, especially

27:03

because they're sort of dealing with life and

27:05

death situations with one another and whatnot. And

27:08

so for us, what mattered most

27:10

was sort of just showing that

27:12

these milestones could happen and

27:15

alluding to things like you're saying, different

27:17

art on the walls, they're starting to

27:19

spend their own money. We

27:23

really thought about it and I feel like this

27:25

is one place where I wish we could have

27:27

given even more details to this. We wanted the

27:29

house to start getting a little bit cruddier and

27:31

a little bit easier and more fingerprinted on

27:34

things. But

27:36

that was always the hope. We even joked

27:39

at one point of showing Max getting much

27:41

fatter, but like talking to an identical cat

27:43

is apparently really hard to do that can act.

27:47

But yeah, we

27:50

thought of it as

27:53

late summer to late summer and then all

27:55

that really mattered to us and is sort

27:57

of getting to this place where they can

27:59

boy meet girl. fall in love, get

28:01

closer, things start to go to shit, and so

28:03

on and so forth in a way that felt

28:05

real. I really like the idea of Amy Simon

28:07

saying, bring me the bigger cat now, like for

28:10

a first time. So

28:14

this season is obviously, this is in

28:16

the episode descriptions, built in the arc,

28:18

a recognizable arc of a relationship.

28:21

Chris and I, in talking about the show and enjoying the show,

28:23

I think both of us were kind of torn between loving

28:26

that artful construction and being able to see

28:28

each step along this path, but also at

28:30

times being like, I wish she

28:32

wasn't yada yadaing all these other missions. This

28:35

is working in such a unique way for

28:37

the contemporary. We're big mission guys. We love

28:39

missions. Yeah. But

28:42

it's working in such a unique way for contemporary

28:44

television where it is a one

28:46

season event, but also kind

28:49

of, I mean, I know maybe it would have

28:51

been harder for you, but we kind of would have been happy

28:53

with 20 of these. I remember I heard you guys

28:55

saying that. I was really touched by that,

28:57

but I also also gave me like slight

28:59

PTSD to think about what it was saying.

29:02

But I was really flattered by that. I guess

29:05

I wonder then the sort of the nature of

29:07

that conversation because you're making TV for Amazon, you're

29:09

making TV with actors who have a lot of

29:11

things going on. You know, tomorrow is never promised

29:13

in contemporary television. So how

29:15

early on was the decision that this was going

29:18

to be this year, this arc of a relationship

29:20

and then building it that way? Very

29:23

early. We definitely

29:25

did bat around other versions of the

29:28

show. We even batted around

29:30

other versions where it is

29:32

closer to the film in the sense that

29:34

it is a marriage that has existed and

29:36

it's just no longer tiny. And

29:39

they're sort of at a crossroads of not knowing how

29:42

they feel about each other. And

29:44

we also thought about doing a show

29:46

that felt like a little bit more thriller

29:48

ask and taking

29:50

things down a different road of being

29:54

like conspiratorial and all of these things.

29:57

But we always just kept coming back to

29:59

this relationship story. That was the thing

30:01

that Drew Donald and I to the project in the first

30:03

place. His brother,

30:05

Steven Glover, who is like wonderfully

30:07

brilliant, but always says things in

30:09

this very simple way, almost like

30:13

it almost feels like philosophical

30:15

sometimes with Steve. And he just

30:17

said, man, it's about the relationship.

30:20

Just remember it's about the relationship. So when

30:22

he would say that, suddenly telling

30:25

the story, at least for me, felt

30:27

easier. I

30:29

wasn't hitting my head against the wall so hard.

30:32

And so when that felt like the right place to go

30:34

and it felt like the right place for the other writers,

30:37

we realized that that was

30:40

the adventure for us pretty early days. I

30:42

think we want to go back a little bit more in terms of

30:44

the genesis of the show. But since we're starting at the end, I

30:47

want to talk about the end. The end can

30:49

be read a number of ways. It is

30:52

ambiguous, but it's also possible to read it

30:54

as quite definitive. Can

30:57

you talk a little bit about the decision making behind what

30:59

you wanted to show and what

31:01

you take away from it? Because this is probably

31:03

baked into the commentary that we wish we had

31:05

20 episodes. We would be very happy to have

31:07

20 more, please. I

31:10

love that. You know, I think

31:15

I actually think audiences are

31:17

really intelligent and I think

31:19

that the world could

31:21

really benefit from smart TV and

31:23

smart films and things like that. But

31:26

one of the things that really excited us

31:28

all is that it

31:30

kind of allows you to decide.

31:32

Like if you are a glass

31:34

heftful type of person, John and

31:36

Jane, you know, end

31:39

up surviving and or

31:42

at least one of them, if you're

31:44

sort of somewhere in the middle person,

31:46

glass quarterful kind of person, a

31:48

quarter full person. And then there's

31:50

another version, obviously, where, you

31:53

know, they they have met their demise and it's

31:55

sort of more like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance

31:58

and they know our someone Louise. It

32:01

really depends on the individual in

32:03

that way. And that

32:05

felt exciting to us. It also felt, I have

32:07

to say, like a little bit like a Twitter

32:10

meme from five years ago where it's just

32:12

like Parker Posey murdered me inside my panic

32:14

room, Mommy. You know what I

32:16

mean? It felt like very, very intentional. Yeah. Yeah,

32:19

totally. Donald would freaking

32:21

love that, actually. And

32:24

he definitely would love that. I think speaking

32:27

to meme and internet culture is

32:30

sort of his forte in a lot of ways,

32:32

actually. Do you not to, you know, a

32:34

lot can change. Things are always very fluid,

32:36

but like, did you walk away from the

32:38

season being like, well, Amazon, let

32:40

us know we would love to make more? Because

32:42

it's not just that you leave the season being

32:45

like, there's more Donald and Maya, you created a

32:47

larger reinvention of the franchise where

32:49

there's other opportunities to revisit it. So in terms

32:51

of where your conversations with Amazon left off, was

32:53

it like, let us know once you get your

32:55

data? Do you have thoughts and desires to do

32:57

more? Or are you letting it lie? We

33:00

definitely, we wanted to tell a story

33:02

that felt complete on its own. Should

33:05

we not ever get hired to do

33:07

anything ever again? But we definitely, you know,

33:12

wanted to create

33:14

a world, like you said, you know, now

33:17

you know that anyone could be a Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

33:19

And there's a lot of things that you could do

33:22

with that. That was very intentional in case we did

33:24

want to on our own

33:26

and also get the blessings from Amazon to

33:29

go forward, you know, there's definitely more

33:31

story for us to tell. But yes,

33:33

we are, I mean, full transparency, yes. Like we have

33:35

to wait for the protocol and wait for the data

33:37

and see all of that. But as

33:40

you're making it, this thing took us, we started writing

33:42

this thing together in 2020. Yeah.

33:45

And then I had a kid and, you know, like

33:48

so much life stuff happened. My father

33:50

passed and some other people on crew

33:52

lost. So much life happens when you're

33:55

making something like this. So

33:57

it really became about telling the one

33:59

complete. story and doing it the best

34:01

you could. But you always

34:04

have backup ideas. You know, you're

34:06

your imaginative dreamers. You can't help

34:08

it, but keep on going when you

34:10

love something. You bought all this fat cats. Yeah,

34:12

I know. Seriously, I hear them in the background.

34:15

Three fat cats that need work.

34:18

Yeah. So I was curious about, you know,

34:20

when Andy and I talk, especially a lot

34:22

about like what you would probably term prestige

34:24

dramas over the last couple of years, like

34:27

succession, whatever, like a lot of the times

34:29

when we're talking about these fictional characters, we

34:32

slip into, and I think in general, people

34:34

when they're talking about shows slip into talking

34:36

about the characters, like their real people, kind

34:39

of maybe even evaluating those characters based

34:41

on their own sense of morals and

34:43

ethics. And, you know, it's like, is

34:45

Kendall a good guy kind of thing, you

34:47

know, like, and it really informs a lot.

34:50

It's a funny phenomenon of modern

34:52

television discourse that's happened. But one

34:55

of the things that I really was sort of

34:57

attracted to with Mr. and Mrs. Smith was the

34:59

blank slate nature of the characters. Like

35:02

you're basically watching two people who could,

35:04

honestly, they could make up anything they

35:07

wanted to about each other. Right. Like they could say,

35:09

yeah, I went to Harvard and I

35:11

was in the Navy and I played football, but like

35:13

you could have gone to Ohio State and played baseball

35:15

and not been in the Navy. It doesn't matter. You

35:18

know, obviously the John character is a little bit

35:20

more forthcoming and retains more connections to his past.

35:22

But when you're writing

35:24

characters whose intention is

35:27

to be blank, does

35:29

it make you as a writer think about

35:31

like character as an idea anyway? It

35:34

really does. And I will say like that I, it

35:37

made me so happy. I heard you

35:39

talk about that. It

35:42

was the thing that made this the

35:44

most compelling to write in the first

35:46

place. And also absolutely the most challenging

35:49

because you're still trying to create

35:51

connections with them and you're

35:53

still wanting an audience to, you know,

35:55

invest in these two

35:58

people. But with that, mind

36:00

with sort of this blank slate and

36:02

without giving too much away. And then

36:04

what is it that you are then

36:06

clinging to? It really then does become

36:08

about moments. And

36:12

and in that way, it sort of is,

36:14

you know, having a conversation with falling

36:17

for someone when you don't know them yet.

36:20

And so it was the most challenging

36:22

thing to write for me personally,

36:24

because of that exact thing. But it was also

36:26

the thing that got me the most excited about doing

36:28

it this way. Out of everything about the show, that

36:31

was the thing that made me the most excited. Chris,

36:34

your deep thoughts are landing. Impressed

36:37

by that. That you took a flyer on that.

36:41

Francesca, it's been covered in other interviews you've

36:43

done. And I think generally in the coverage

36:45

of the show, some of the TikTok about

36:47

how this came together and part of it

36:49

was the rights holders were interested in someone

36:51

reviving this this this brand, this IP, and

36:53

they came to Donald with it. And Donald,

36:55

you and Donald had worked together on Atlanta.

36:58

So he brought this to you. Can you talk

37:00

us through that back and forth back in 2020

37:03

from your perspective? Like, is it a text?

37:05

Is it a, hey, let's wear masks and eat

37:07

lunch outside? I have something to talk to you

37:09

about. Was your reaction incredulous laughter? Was

37:11

it one of those things where you say that's

37:13

a terrible idea you hang up and then you

37:15

call them back five minutes later? Like, where did

37:17

the breadcrumbs start to be laid down for you

37:19

that made this something that you wanted to spend?

37:22

Maybe you didn't know the next four years, but certainly a good

37:24

chunk of time. I'll actually remember

37:26

exactly. So I had just started renting

37:28

this little back house in Highland Park

37:30

just to have some way of getting

37:32

out of my house to go right

37:35

and work. I was actually developing two

37:37

other things at the time and I

37:39

was in the car. It was a really hot day. I

37:41

was on my way there and Donald texted

37:43

me and oh, let me go back a little

37:45

bit. We knew we wanted to find something to do together.

37:48

I wasn't sure how serious he was about that or not,

37:50

but he had at least expressed that to me and I

37:52

obviously was going to do it, but I just didn't know.

37:54

But he's the guy that can go to a galaxy far,

37:56

far away at any moment. Yeah. Like, you're waiting. Exactly,

38:00

exactly. So he was driving

38:03

and he texted me and he said, Hey,

38:05

what if we do Mr. and Mrs.

38:10

Smith together? And I thought

38:12

he was joking. So I sent back his

38:14

that you know, like that emoji, there,

38:17

like, of a giraffe, like not the little ones,

38:19

but the big ones. I said

38:21

that the giant giraffe because

38:24

I thought, I don't

38:26

know if he's joking or not. And he won't know

38:28

what this reaction means. So right now while I'm driving,

38:30

I'm just going to send the giraffe and then I'll

38:32

call him back and see what the hell he's talking

38:34

about. Interesting strategy. So

38:37

I sent him that giraffe. Sorry, I have to

38:39

stop. Did you have giraffe in most use? Because

38:42

otherwise, it's very unsafe. Yeah, I just rolling through

38:44

being like, I do use the giraffe often. And

38:46

you're searching for big giraffe. Yeah. Okay, go on.

38:49

One of the big ones where you can like also

38:51

like make it record and like, oh, yeah, the

38:53

big emoji after dress safe or yeah,

38:56

the emoji or I don't know. Yeah.

38:58

Okay, we'll allow it continue. Yeah,

39:00

yeah. So I sent that I

39:02

actually to be a safe driver because I

39:04

do use it frequently. I was like, well,

39:06

giraffe, okay, deal with this later. Anyway, then

39:09

he called me I was at this little

39:11

back house pacing around and he was like,

39:13

Hey, do you want to do Mr. and

39:15

Mrs. Smith? Michael Schafer, who

39:17

at the time was working for New Regency brought

39:19

it to him. And

39:22

I started laughing, not like not

39:24

big giant laughter. But I was

39:26

just like, what are you talking

39:28

about? Like, are you joking? And

39:30

he said, No, I'm like completely serious. He's

39:33

like, I know it's a weird one. But I

39:35

kind of like what a big swing it is.

39:37

And when when Donald says

39:39

I kind of like it means

39:41

Donald really likes. And

39:44

I started realizing how serious he was

39:46

about it. Now, while we

39:48

started talking about it, you

39:51

know, about taking an action spy thriller,

39:53

making it about a relationship, making it

39:55

about in between moments, we even joked

39:58

around about maybe there's one time

40:00

where there's this huge giant mission that you

40:02

just never actually even get to see. They

40:05

just like run back into the car and there's like

40:07

a monkey with a banana gun or something. We

40:12

got really excited about telling a story

40:14

in that way. Also,

40:16

the concept of like a really meta

40:19

match for Donald, like

40:21

who would be cast. It

40:24

did start to get really exciting and then it

40:26

started to become more and more real. But

40:29

with that said, he was like,

40:31

when do you want to pitch this to Amazon?

40:33

Like our version of it once we get it

40:35

together. And I said, you know, I'm doing these

40:37

two other projects. Can we wait a few months?

40:39

He's like, yeah, yeah, that's all good. An

40:42

hour later, he's like, what if we pitch

40:44

this next week? So,

40:47

you know, he's high, high, basically. That's

40:50

where a lot of it comes from. Exactly. And I was

40:52

like, all right, dude. Yeah, let's do it.

40:54

I'll like and let's get it together. Would you

40:56

like a replacement project? Yeah. Exactly.

41:00

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Do

41:03

you want another John and it's me and answer ended

41:05

up being yes. And I'm really glad I got

41:07

to make something with one of my best friends

41:10

and a bunch of our best friends.

41:12

It was a blast. So I'm

41:14

really interested as an observer and Chris and I

41:16

had the chance to talk to both lovers once

41:18

for an FYC event. But Donald's really uncanny sense

41:20

of himself and his own abilities, not just that

41:23

he's a confident guy because that's well covered and

41:25

he talks about it in that really good THR

41:27

interview that you guys did. But

41:30

the use of him and the use of

41:32

his particular abilities in this was really fascinating

41:35

because he is an auteur himself. He's a

41:37

director. He's a writer. He

41:39

can develop anywhere he wants with anything. But as

41:41

a vehicle for his ideas, what motivates him as

41:43

a vehicle for what is particularly charismatic and

41:45

vulnerable, vulnerable about him as an actor as a

41:47

vehicle for someone who is at a place in

41:50

his career, we can take the biggest swings

41:52

with the biggest. What's the metaphor? Is

41:55

it bat in this? I guess we'll go baseball. I think it's

41:58

bat. But also subvert it. Found

42:00

it really fascinating. So I wonder if you could talk

42:02

about that observation just from the perspective of a collaborator

42:05

You know because he is putting his Cultural

42:09

capital on the line with us, but he's also from Center

42:12

on the screen I think

42:14

yeah, I mean his awareness of himself

42:16

in the world is part of his

42:19

genius I always talk about him as

42:21

sort of a cultural futurist He

42:24

just has the sense of sort of like what

42:26

is going to hit before it even happens in

42:28

this way That's sort of unparalleled to a lot

42:30

of people I think very few people have that

42:32

very specific kind of skill in the way that

42:34

he has it And I think

42:37

he's really good at sort of Collecting

42:39

other people that have other kinds of

42:41

skills He sort of creates like an

42:43

avengers of talent where it's like, you

42:45

know He has that sensibility

42:47

Whereas hero marae has the sensibility of

42:49

sort of taking quiet moments and knowing

42:51

exactly when to make them feel really

42:53

loud and you know In

42:57

terms of me he sort of understood

42:59

that like taking this very sort

43:01

of female perspective and making jane the actual

43:03

hero Of the story could be a really

43:05

interesting place like he's just very aware of

43:08

those things Now in terms of

43:10

him becoming john You

43:12

know as opposed to a brad pit and

43:14

making it a donald's lover He

43:16

understood the assignment in that he knew how

43:19

the internet would react to it He leaned

43:21

into that in terms of press and in

43:23

terms of even dealing with marketing It was

43:25

all about all of us being really aware

43:28

and calling ourselves out and us

43:30

knowing what we were trying to do and not Trying

43:33

to get one over on people all of us just

43:35

being like yeah, we're doing this We're

43:37

trying to make something different We're

43:39

trying to make the reject mr. And mrs. Smith That's

43:42

why this is fun for us. Give it a shot

43:44

If you like it great if you don't that's totally

43:46

fine too, then maybe it's just not for you and that

43:48

was sort of It's a

43:50

very very donald's approach to everything

43:54

You know when you you guys are putting together

43:56

the show and you're you know, you talked about

43:58

like focusing on the relationship the interest you had

44:00

in the blank slate of the character, the nature

44:02

of the characters. I was also wondering,

44:05

kind of an action show, right? And I was

44:08

curious whether, you know, it has an aesthetic that

44:10

is not gonna be unfamiliar to people

44:12

who watched Atlanta or have seen some of the hero's

44:14

stuff or seen some of Amy Simons' stuff. And the

44:17

vibes are definitely there, but there's

44:19

also car chases in Lake Como and

44:21

explosions. And I was wondering whether or not for

44:24

you, did you revisit

44:26

any action thriller texts

44:28

or films that you kind of wanted

44:31

to draw from or be like, huh,

44:33

so like, what's a

44:35

good car chase? Like, you know, like what would

44:37

we make? Yeah. Yeah, we

44:39

did. We did a lot of that. I mean,

44:41

we watched a shit ton of like French connection

44:43

and things like that. And then, you know, lots

44:45

of Hitchcock and, but

44:47

I will say like we, there was a

44:49

point in time where the action was even

44:52

more subdued. And I feel like

44:54

it's pretty subdued for the most part, but

44:56

as we were shooting, you know, we

44:58

shot all of the New York episodes first and

45:00

there was this sort of excitement

45:03

on set and we got to do some

45:05

real action. And there was some excitement from

45:07

Donald and Maya. And I started realizing in

45:09

real time along with our producers, like, you

45:12

know what? Audiences might get

45:14

itchy for some more. And so long as

45:16

it always was in conversation directly with the

45:19

relationship, why not allow the action to sort

45:21

of start getting bigger and bigger? And that

45:23

was sort of an on the fly shift

45:26

that sort of happened while we were already

45:28

mid shooting. The show started telling

45:30

us what it wanted it to be in terms

45:32

of that. And that's why, for instance, like, you

45:35

know, the episode with Ron and Italy, we

45:37

have like this big, huge action sequence because we

45:40

started to realize that the story kind of asked

45:42

for that in that moment. And then you can

45:44

have it get really quiet again and it becomes

45:46

a little play in this little cottage again between

45:48

the three characters. But

45:50

yeah, it was like this living

45:52

breathing thing and the action sort of kept

45:54

dictating to us what it needed to do as

45:56

we were shooting and it would get bigger or

45:58

smaller. storytelling is present

46:01

throughout all of it because like you know in the

46:03

in the first episode they're super nervous about delivering a

46:05

box and By Lake

46:07

Como, they're like bantering with each other while

46:09

they drive at high speeds

46:11

through winding mountain roads and shoot out windows I

46:13

mean, it's it's really like it's evident that this

46:16

is now become Their jobs,

46:18

you know Actually, we wanted that

46:20

and we wanted to feel like you can sort

46:22

of earn the finale We

46:24

wanted to show them like bit by bit earning

46:27

That that shoot out that shoot them up in that

46:29

house in a way that Real

46:32

I think the the the decision by Phoebe

46:35

Waller bridge to leave the project has been well

46:37

covered I'd like to talk to you about the

46:39

decision to hire Maya like it how that went

46:41

down She's extraordinary in the show I

46:43

think You're right to say that she

46:46

is the hero of it in a way and the way

46:48

that she plays it is so subtle and so moving And

46:50

it's it's so organic throughout and their chemistry

46:52

is outrageous and you don't get that scene At

46:55

the end that you said you overrode and

46:57

then cut down without their absolute delight in

47:00

each other You know, like Donald's laughter is

47:02

so generous and real He's

47:04

delighted by her. So can

47:07

you talk me through that decision? Was it was it

47:09

with her name? Was her name floated in the room that

47:11

someone suggested was it an easy? Yes. Did you bring her

47:14

in? How did that happen? Yeah,

47:16

I will talk about my all day every

47:18

day I love her so much and I

47:20

do think she's just incredible and

47:22

the two of them together I'm so in love with them

47:24

together. It was we were on a text

47:26

thread With

47:28

Carmen Cuba who's like one of the most

47:30

legendary casting directors and a really good friend

47:32

of ours and she

47:34

was actually the first person to say Maya

47:37

and As soon

47:39

as what was so weird about that though

47:41

is as she texted Maya I was I

47:43

was actually in Santa Barbara at the time

47:45

walking up and down on the beach Having

47:47

an anxiety attack about like what? What

47:51

is it like being a Hollywood screenwriter? What's

47:54

raffles in that situation? There

47:57

is one it's a brain explosion So

48:00

if you ever need it, it's a good one. But

48:04

I was texting Maya's name at that exact

48:06

time. And I'm not like a big one

48:08

for signs or things like that, but I

48:10

thought, huh, that's really interesting because I also

48:12

had that thought in my mind. Then

48:15

we asked Hiro Murai,

48:17

he said, Maya, without knowing that

48:19

this name was being floated now a few different

48:21

times. I then asked my sisters, they said, Maya,

48:24

it was a weird thing. And I don't want to

48:26

interrupt you. When you're texting Hiro, are you saying, we

48:28

need someone who can do X, Y, and Z? Did

48:30

he see you already know the script or did you

48:32

just blank say, who is Jane? Hiro

48:34

knew the script because we had done a version of the

48:37

pilot that changed quite a bit, but we, so, and

48:40

he was already like, you know, that's

48:42

our buddy. And he was so busy

48:44

and was like finishing Atlanta, but was

48:46

like, clearly we were gonna like manipulate

48:48

him to come on board and direct

48:50

first, at least the first two episodes.

48:53

So we were all sort of, and

48:55

he, we knew we needed a Jane.

48:57

And so he had said, Maya, now

48:59

I don't, that

49:01

was all just based on a gut reaction. Now,

49:04

and reflecting back, like why

49:07

Maya? I think it really

49:09

was because she's so brave with her

49:11

vulnerabilities. She's not afraid to like utterly

49:13

humiliate herself and then sort of make

49:15

that a strength. And she's

49:17

just such a good actor. And like, I

49:20

really wanted to show that she can do

49:22

so many things. It

49:25

just felt like an exciting thing. Now,

49:27

Donald just FaceTimed her just

49:29

to catch a vibe. And she

49:31

assumed that it was for like a

49:33

small part to

49:36

be on the show that she didn't know much about.

49:38

She liked the concept of sort of reject Mr. and

49:40

Mrs. Smith. And then he was

49:42

very coy about it. And then toward the end,

49:44

she started realizing that he was actually calling her

49:46

to play Jane, which she was

49:48

shocked by and surprised by. And

49:51

then I had a Zoom with

49:53

Maya and we connected so immediately,

49:55

so easily. She wanted to

49:57

do all of like the most humiliating things

50:00

the two characters who we weren't sure if John would

50:02

do this or Jane would do this. Famously, now we

50:04

keep talking about how Maya really wanted to

50:06

be the character that had IBS for

50:09

John. And that was like, this is our

50:11

girl. And

50:15

we all just met up in New York. There

50:17

was kind of an awkward table

50:19

read with all of everybody, all

50:21

of the execs on Amazon and

50:23

whatnot. But then Hiro, Maya, Donald,

50:26

and I got a little

50:28

hotel room and we sort of did a very

50:30

casual rehearsal. And there was just magic between them.

50:33

And they were just making each other laugh so

50:35

much. And it felt like they had known each

50:37

other for much longer than they had. And I

50:39

remember Hiro taking me to the side and looking

50:42

at me and he's like, hey, Fran, this is

50:44

really gonna work. And I felt it. I really,

50:46

I saw it. I got chills

50:48

watching them together, which is really exciting. It's

50:52

amazing to watch because it's not just, you know,

50:54

and Chris is referring to the action moments, which

50:56

they both pull off with the plum, but the

50:59

moments that stick with me about the show, a lot of them

51:01

are in what I thought of as maybe

51:04

my favorite episode. I'm not sure. Come

51:06

back to me. But not the ultimate

51:08

one, the therapy episode. Yeah. It's so

51:10

exceptional because you ask so much of

51:13

everyone all the time. And what sticks with me

51:15

though is the walks away from the house, which

51:17

is anyone who's ever done therapy like that knows

51:19

that's where the real stuff happens. And

51:22

their physical presence with each other

51:24

is remarkable because they either walking

51:26

with shared history, even

51:29

though they are trying to have fun after

51:31

the first one and have a joint enemy in Sarah

51:33

Paulson. And then they can't hide

51:35

it anymore for the second one. But that

51:37

intimacy, you cannot fake. It's remarkable to watch. I'm

51:40

so glad that you feel that way. They'll be so happy

51:42

to hear that too. But we, you

51:44

know, full disclosure, that was a reshoot.

51:46

And so, you know, sometimes,

51:49

like, as much as it's a headache, you

51:51

know, the universe can be sort of kind,

51:53

because at that point, we had all been

51:55

through so much. And we were so close

51:58

to the history was now there. at

52:00

that point, but really benefited us

52:02

at the end because it's a performance

52:04

fault, exactly what you're describing. So

52:07

what's up next? You know, this, like,

52:09

you worked on this for four years, it comes

52:11

out in a binge. Wait,

52:13

I have a question about that. Before we give her the

52:15

softball, I got a couple hard balls. Okay,

52:18

let's do it. I have some Amazon questions. Okay. Feel

52:21

free, I know this is a podcast, starting

52:23

the show the way it starts with Scarsgard,

52:26

was that always the plan or was that a, hey,

52:28

we need more action in the show, blink twice, if

52:30

you don't want to talk about it? No,

52:33

we can totally talk about it, but

52:35

you're a very astute watcher

52:37

because, yeah, I

52:39

mean, it was not necessarily we need more

52:41

action, it was, we need

52:44

to sort of, and I actually don't disagree

52:46

with this, we need to set up states. What

52:49

could happen, and it does track with what happens to

52:51

our characters. It does, and actually it

52:53

was really, Donald, Hiro, and

52:55

I, this is another

52:57

one of those moments where like, working with

52:59

your friends and having this connection is really

53:01

fantastic, because we all separately sort of came

53:03

to the same idea, we were like, we

53:06

need a new beginning, and

53:08

we all sort of arrived to, along

53:10

with Amazon, this notion of,

53:14

you know, another Mr. and Mrs. Smith

53:16

couple, but like what

53:18

we like about it is we're being naughty,

53:20

winky, assholes, because it's like, hey, if different

53:22

creators made this show, this would be the

53:25

show we've hired. The entire time. But we're gonna

53:27

give you this for a few minutes, and

53:29

then get rid of them, and then bring

53:31

in our real show, which is sort of how

53:33

we navigate it all that, but it also still

53:35

does do an authentic thing, which is show

53:38

you, you know, Ghost of Christmas Future

53:40

states at the same time,

53:42

without just being assholes. That makes sense. I

53:44

also think that, I keep referring to, I

53:46

guess you've heard us say this, like, this

53:48

does seem like, and I don't know, I

53:50

don't know what it was like behind the scenes,

53:53

but in some ways an ideal marriage of what

53:55

you and Donald and your creative community have

53:57

built with the financial pull of an Amazon,

54:00

saying so many of your friends are involved in

54:02

the show behind the camera and in front of

54:04

the camera. You and I'm sure Donald and

54:06

Steven have and here are people they can call and they'll

54:08

show up, you know, and be there to be a part

54:11

of something like this. But clearly you could

54:13

also say, hey, Amazon, we're going to shoot a fight scene

54:15

on the High Line and at the Whitney, we're going to

54:17

go to Lake Como. Those

54:20

feel like the best kind of flexes because you pulled

54:22

it off. What were those conversations

54:24

like in terms of how big you felt

54:26

you could dream and then getting it over

54:28

the finish line? Because it's not just we're

54:30

going to go to Italy, it's we're going

54:32

to do a cinematic action scene that works

54:34

in Italy. Right. I mean, I was

54:39

greatly intimidated by the budget,

54:42

actually. But at the

54:44

same time, like what an incredible opportunity

54:46

to just sort of dream as big

54:48

as you possibly could and become like

54:51

13 year old kids and

54:53

say, hey, what would be like the coolest

54:55

way to sort of show action and we're

54:57

allowed to do it? I will. This credit,

55:00

though, belongs really to our producer,

55:02

Anthony Catagas. He's like this old school

55:04

New York guy. And he just took

55:06

a bunch of us scrappy kids that

55:08

knew nothing about anything really and just

55:10

never said no to us. You

55:13

know, he's just that kind of producer that gets excited

55:15

for the challenge to make it a yes. And

55:18

so because we had him and he was sort

55:20

of our liaison and then sort of calming Amazon

55:23

down as we went through these things, he

55:25

sort of became our person that just let

55:27

us figure out how to dream as big

55:30

as we could and then make those things

55:32

actually happen. I feel like your showrunner

55:34

brain will appreciate this. But in conversations I've had

55:36

with other people who have who've done that job

55:38

and who make TV, there's just

55:41

this there's this respectful shake of the head.

55:43

Like because, you know, you're because they're watching

55:45

the show being like if they went to

55:47

Italy, you're working with local crews and you're

55:49

having to like bridge these language divides and

55:51

also hit the ground running with a show

55:53

that you've been making if you made it

55:55

in that order. pieces of Lake Como real

55:58

estate. Yeah. somehow

56:00

stitched together some not just consistency between the

56:02

show as a whole but also like Cash

56:05

the check that you're writing not literally Amazon's check, but like

56:07

okay, we're gonna do a driving sequence here It's got to

56:10

be the right one. It's got to look good. Yeah,

56:12

I mean The Italy

56:14

stuff we had Karina direct and she

56:16

you know, she's incredible She's like this

56:19

incredible young director But she was the

56:21

most organized person I've ever seen on

56:23

the planet which helped ease everyone Including

56:25

Amazon because there was a really really

56:27

concrete plan of how to sort of

56:29

tackle all of that which definitely helped

56:31

Our some coordinators are amazing. It was

56:33

just like a really good team of

56:35

really capable people And I will say

56:38

this is like one very corny anecdote But like the

56:40

Italian crew was incredible and I've never had

56:42

this experience on set before when we wrapped

56:44

the final shot Every single

56:47

person who worked on that show hugged each

56:49

other. There was not any Hug

56:52

one another when we wrapped it was

56:54

really frickin sweet It was adorable and

56:56

then how long were the kovat delays after

57:05

Many times because they're frickin go this

57:07

last Amazon question the show was dropped

57:09

as a binge How

57:12

do you feel about that creatively and

57:14

how and how is that explained to

57:16

you by them? Like how do they say to you? Hey

57:18

guys, this is our method of doing things and this is

57:20

why we think this is best for your show You

57:23

know initially there was some conversation

57:25

about it being you know It

57:28

would drop weekly it became That

57:31

went away rather fast even before

57:33

we finished shooting and the

57:36

notion is just you know, it's all

57:38

algorithms and Language

57:40

that I will never understand nor do I ever

57:43

want to understand? But

57:45

I do think there's something to when

57:48

somebody visits, you know one of these

57:50

apps, you know There's

57:52

something to sort of drawing people in and

57:54

keeping them there That

57:57

is how things go with streaming right

57:59

now now, when people

58:01

walk like in Netflix or an Amazon,

58:03

I feel like there's that language now.

58:06

And, and I get

58:08

that. I think I was initially

58:10

down on my boat, like, Oh, it would be

58:12

so fun to sort of feel like that classic

58:14

version. I have like two months of people

58:17

watching this. Yeah. Exactly. Take your time. Like

58:19

that's why I love like succession days, is

58:21

that like everyone gathering around again and watching

58:23

and getting excited to watch the new episode

58:25

of the weekend. You know, I also

58:27

wasn't like terribly heartbroken either.

58:30

You know, it's just one of those

58:32

things and it's not such a twisty

58:34

show that if somebody's on

58:36

five and somebody's on three, they can't

58:39

still chat about it. Like, broadly, you

58:41

know what I mean? Like, it's, I

58:43

think ultimately it was it was cool. Chris is

58:46

saying that because he spoiled True Detective for me

58:48

last night. So he's trying to make

58:50

it seem like it's cool. I thought he was

58:52

done. It's fine. I just want you to know

58:54

what's really going on in here. I

58:59

watched that show The Curse and somebody messaged me

59:01

and I was really tired on a

59:03

Friday and they're like, Did you see the finale

59:05

yet? And I was just like, I'm gonna have

59:07

to push through now and watch this before this

59:09

gets ruined for me. And that's the

59:11

best way to watch any art is because you're obligated

59:14

to. Exactly. With a gun to your

59:16

head. Okay,

59:18

now, Chris, you can ask your question. Oh, no, I was just gonna

59:20

say, what's next? What do you up to next? Do you take some

59:22

time off after all of this or do you have anything that

59:25

that you're excited about? I'm

59:27

taking a little time off. I'm gonna go

59:29

with my toddler and hang out by the

59:31

beach and try not to have an existential

59:34

crisis and just reconnect with things that matter.

59:36

And nothing makes you more humble than a

59:38

toddler. That's for sure. And

59:41

but yeah, I mean, we'll see if

59:43

a season two comes around. Donald and

59:45

I are definitely talking about that. And

59:50

my friend Yvonne who wrote on the show has

59:52

a really fantastic, very charming, very special show

59:54

that we're trying to get made called

59:57

Hannah with the dogs. It's like that.

1:00:01

Like an erotica comedy about a woman who

1:00:03

loses her faith in God and finds

1:00:05

it again through animatronic talking dog puppets

1:00:07

Because she becomes a dog walker and

1:00:09

it's fantastic and it's so frickin funny

1:00:13

So yeah I mean just trying to keep making

1:00:15

stuff with friends and and stuff

1:00:17

that feels feels good to write

1:00:19

Yeah, before we let you go Can I just ask you

1:00:21

about that point because I again I don't want to infer

1:00:23

anything about your relationships with all these people That you're working

1:00:25

with but you have referred to working with friends enough that

1:00:27

I feel comfortable to ask Which is to

1:00:29

say that in this industry There are

1:00:32

plenty of high-profile people who have big overall

1:00:34

deals and they often star in them The

1:00:36

track record of those people then empowering other

1:00:39

people who they work with and lifting them

1:00:41

up and giving them opportunities is mixed I

1:00:44

wondered what kind of community Donald and Stephen

1:00:46

and the rest of this crew have have

1:00:49

Created that you continue to feel a part of it

1:00:51

and that you're continuing to work with each other How

1:00:54

would you would describe that from being on the inside of it? I? Think

1:00:57

you know it's when you when

1:00:59

you look back at like, you

1:01:01

know, like Christopher Guest or Cassavetes

1:01:05

or anything like that or even

1:01:07

like Adam Sandler now that I'm

1:01:09

in this I actually Understand what

1:01:12

that's about because it's so hard

1:01:14

We're so lucky and privileged to

1:01:17

be able to make television

1:01:19

or make films or whatever it is but

1:01:22

it's grueling it's tough and It's

1:01:26

long hours and the fact that you

1:01:28

have a shorthand with somebody where you

1:01:31

can actually just understand each other So

1:01:33

that way when you do disagree there's

1:01:35

trust in place without having to overly

1:01:37

explain where you're going with something or

1:01:39

why? And the

1:01:41

ego components of it go away Why

1:01:43

would you not continue to just keep

1:01:46

doing that and I think Donald's just

1:01:48

also really smart about it's not just

1:01:50

like kumbaya Like these

1:01:52

are my buddies he has

1:01:54

really talented and Stephen

1:01:56

and Donald understand that in

1:02:00

helping their talented friends, they're doing

1:02:02

something that's very kind and good

1:02:04

for a lot of really good people,

1:02:06

but it's also creating really good content and

1:02:08

they're making good work because of it. And

1:02:11

so I think it's also really strategic and

1:02:13

smart and business savvy also. Well,

1:02:15

Francesca, we love the show. We love having the

1:02:17

chance to talk to you. We're very excited for

1:02:20

the next opportunity you have to use a giraffe

1:02:22

emoji. Yeah. Because that text from

1:02:24

him can come at any time. It's true. And

1:02:27

enjoy season two, 20 episode order. Hope that's fun.

1:02:31

Thank you guys so much. I really do

1:02:33

appreciate it. And the love that you have for

1:02:35

the show has like, so many people have sent

1:02:37

me, you know, what you guys

1:02:39

have been saying and I listened and I was

1:02:41

so touched. Thank you for thinking so

1:02:44

deeply about it. It really is

1:02:46

a lot. It's easy when it's this good. Yeah, it's a gift to

1:02:48

us. So thank you. Thanks so much. All right, bye

1:02:50

guys. Thank you so much. Bye.