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I need supports to have to clear

1:06

the rung.

1:07

band up and walk now.

1:10

Hello,

1:10

and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris

1:12

Ryan.

1:12

I am an editor at the ringer

1:14

dot com and joining me on the other

1:16

line absolutely reeling

1:19

from his

1:19

performance review from the ISB.

1:22

It's every

1:23

gray world.

1:25

We used to do this on video

1:28

and the people would have seen you just

1:30

flashing ones. Like, you're intimidating

1:32

me with your money roll before For some reason,

1:34

my wife left a bunch of small bills

1:37

by my computer, and I don't know what

1:39

it's in payment for or what I was supposed to use

1:41

it for, but I just thought I would throw a little bit

1:43

of make it rain for you a little bit. Welcome

1:45

to He looked like fat Joe in the makeup

1:47

rain video. That's right. It's Thursday's episode

1:49

of Watch, a special one today. Andy and I are gonna

1:51

talking about the fourth episode of Andor and the

1:53

season finale of reservation dogs and then

1:55

grew Walled as an interview with

1:58

Restoration Dog's Creator, Sterling

1:59

Harjo, that I was sadly not able to make.

2:02

But Andy, I can't wait to listen to it. How are you

2:04

doing? Beautiful day out today?

2:06

It's a good day. Thoughts with

2:09

those in Florida who are not having a good weather

2:11

day? It's just

2:13

confounding. the

2:14

difference I mean, I'm sorry to be like mister

2:16

basic guy looking at the doppler, but it is

2:18

really crazy. It's possible within the

2:20

span of one country and one day. So

2:22

where do you wanna start today? I was on

2:25

I had one bit of news on

2:27

didn't prep you for this. I just wanted to throw

2:29

it out there. Right.

2:31

I, you know, I have some British background,

2:34

so I'd like to think of myself as a bit of a

2:36

a tea leaf expert. Yeah. I'm

2:39

gonna

2:39

tell you something that I think has happened here.

2:41

Okay.

2:41

Have

2:42

you read any of Jeremy Strong's

2:45

press? for our weekend time.

2:47

Not like, especially this week's.

2:50

I didn't read any. I'm I I feel like I get

2:52

the bit. You know what I mean? Should I have been reading it more

2:54

closely? I see the cover I see the face, I

2:56

see the poll quotes, you know, yes, he's serious,

2:58

but he can still laugh. You know, I I get it.

3:00

Now fool me once, fool me twice kind

3:02

of stuff. I under Dan. But you remember, like, earlier

3:05

last season's succession when we were like,

3:07

if

3:07

this is the end for Jeremy Strong, it

3:09

is the boldest, bravest decision

3:12

that

3:12

I've seen prestige television show make

3:14

in a long time, and we wind up loving

3:16

the finale, and we wind up loving that season. So

3:18

it wasn't in any way that we thought

3:20

Kendall was done. I think this is

3:22

I think this is gonna be a a wrap for

3:24

Jeremy on this next season.

3:27

Based on, like, the I I was just reading, like,

3:29

the tea leaves from these interviews where he's talking

3:31

a lot about, like, other

3:33

projects that he's working on and how --

3:35

Right. -- even even in this article, it mentions

3:38

how he shot armageddon

3:40

time in, like, one of his few breaks

3:42

that he really gets from succession because when succession

3:44

is up and running and going -- Mhmm. -- they

3:46

are basically, like, the air and then it's, like,

3:48

they usually shoot you know, I think they're I believe

3:50

they're shooting season for now.

3:52

Right? They are shooting. Yeah. But

3:55

by some

3:57

of the stuff that they were talking about. So I guess

3:59

he's doing a

4:00

nine eleven, a Chernobyl

4:02

style nine eleven drama with Tobias

4:05

Lindholm. churn open style.

4:07

It's with plan b, which is Brad Pitt and

4:09

d d Gartner's company, and d d Gartner is secondary

4:11

in the Hollywood reporter article, I believe. And she

4:13

talks about how, like, Jeremy and I are

4:15

talking a lot about, like, what we can do together

4:17

postsuccession. Yeah. And I was just

4:19

like yeah.

4:20

I just feels like the the sorta

4:23

III don't I don't even know if this is a spoiler. I don't even

4:25

know if this is just thought I would bring it up because

4:27

I thought it was so interesting. Interesting

4:29

because you think they're not

4:31

being coy about his upcoming block

4:34

of free time or what it means for the show

4:36

itself. But they're very I mean, obviously,

4:38

I think Jeremy Strong is gonna be in the Oscar So

4:40

I think that there is a degree of which

4:42

drum beating that's gonna start now for

4:45

Jeremy Strong getting nominated for him

4:47

again in time. I'm not sure if that I guess that would probably be

4:49

best supporting actor. But

4:51

in

4:51

general, I thought it was interesting because, like,

4:53

a lot of this stuff is going up against the

4:55

New Yorker profile. Like, it's basically -- --

4:58

not necessarily spputing it as much as

5:00

being, like, that was fucked up time for me and

5:02

it was kind of weird and, you know, I

5:04

in lots of ways, I don't really take back anything

5:06

I said in the New York article, but I didn't agree

5:08

with the portrayal of me or whatever. But

5:10

then, like, I just thought it was kind of fascinating

5:13

to see somebody sort of plot out their post

5:15

Maybe

5:15

not their post succession career, but be like, I have

5:18

all this other stuff on the hopper. Yeah.

5:20

I mean, I think there's yeah. III

5:22

think it's interesting too. I think there's two

5:24

camps

5:24

are thinking about this. One, Jeremy

5:27

Strong, even his

5:29

closest friends, colleagues, and

5:32

peers will say, is an ambitious guy. Yeah.

5:34

And there is a proud

5:37

richer tradition in

5:39

television of

5:41

minted stars. Jeremy Strong was

5:43

a respected and working actor before

5:45

succession, but now he's an Emmy, you know, he's a thing.

5:48

He's an Emmy nominated guy.

5:51

and TV actors

5:53

who become suddenly get the calls and the offers,

5:56

who are already ambitious, are generally

5:58

start chafing around season

5:59

three. Right? They wanna go do the other things. They wanna

6:02

do the movies while they're being offered to them. They wanna be

6:04

known for more than just the one thing. They want the credit for

6:06

themselves. So that's that's normal, and I would

6:08

feel like he would be doing that regardless. I

6:10

also think on the flip side of it,

6:12

Jesse Armstrong creator succession

6:14

has been pretty blunt as well.

6:17

in his specific vision

6:19

for the length of the show. And

6:21

we've never heard, I don't think, Casey

6:24

or Francesca or anyone else at HBO clap

6:26

back. You know, like famously when

6:29

Damon and Carlton with Lost were like,

6:31

we need to end the show after season five

6:33

and the head of ABC was like, counterpoint,

6:36

season ten, and then they compromise.

6:38

I mean, don't see that. So think that it's pretty much

6:40

in the ether that succession will be done after five.

6:43

So it's possible that they could

6:45

do all just They could do that. Yeah.

6:47

That that's that's entirely true. Yes.

6:49

But the

6:51

wildcard that I think you're alluding to that

6:53

we love, and I'm sure we'll be talking about weekly

6:55

when the season starts. Season four would

6:57

be successful without Kendall.

6:59

It's that

7:00

this show is is masterful.

7:02

And the trust

7:05

equity built up by Jesse in

7:07

his writer's rooms is just unparalleled.

7:09

So I don't really want to see succession without

7:12

Kendal. But should that day come,

7:15

it will

7:15

be a decision I will trust

7:17

and support and right and and be eagerly

7:20

anticipating what's on the other side of it. So

7:22

that's

7:22

rare, I think. Because usually when you

7:25

see stars making moves or, you know,

7:27

talking

7:27

about getting out, you're like, well, they're gonna

7:30

sync the show with behind them. They're gonna scuttle the ship.

7:32

And I don't think that's necessarily the case here.

7:34

I have one other question for you before we get into

7:36

Antor. how interested are you in

7:38

cinematic car crashes? Not the actual

7:40

act of a car crashing in a movie, but when you

7:43

hear about a movie that seems like

7:45

So in the case of Blonde, which is coming

7:47

out, I believe, this week on Netflix. It's the enter dominant

7:50

movie about Marilyn Monro, standing starring

7:52

Anadarko, and Big pic did an episode

7:54

audit earlier this week. I encourage everybody to

7:56

go check out. But is one of the more

7:58

savage movies by major

7:59

director that

8:02

I can remember. In terms of it being,

8:04

like, this it's not that this

8:06

film doesn't

8:07

make sense or that there are plot

8:09

holes or that the production was obviously

8:11

cheaper, you know,

8:13

unfinished or whatever. It's like

8:15

literally

8:17

I hate this movie and what it has to

8:19

say. And I was curious

8:21

whether that kind of stuff I suppose to a much

8:23

lesser extent that happened with Don't worry Darling.

8:25

where -- Yeah. -- it was obviously a lot

8:27

of off screen drama and then some

8:29

pretty lukewarm to hostile

8:32

reviews. Do those

8:34

kinds of reactions to movies make you wanna

8:36

watch a film more?

8:38

Clarify. Big pick. the movie podcast.

8:41

It's It is. Yeah. Is Sean still cranking

8:43

that out? He is twice a

8:45

week. Good friend. That's great.

8:48

It's a great question. I think,

8:50

first of all, I thought that I was interested in cinematic

8:53

car crashes until I watched the last

8:55

AnadarkoMS film with Ben Affleck. And

8:58

I Oh, yeah. Don't be water

9:00

thriller. Yeah. Yeah. I

9:03

took no pleasure from that. Like, I

9:05

I did not enjoy the

9:07

badness. You know what I mean? Like, I that did not

9:09

get fill me with Sean and Freud or

9:11

or life.

9:12

In this case, this was a

9:14

this is a tough one. Right? Because I think

9:16

that the idea of like a a directorial

9:19

overreach or it's just like ambition

9:21

and vision crashing into the reality

9:24

of execution. Like, that could

9:26

be interesting. Right? Like like Heaven's

9:28

Gate is a film that is worth seeing

9:30

even though it has become synonymous with

9:33

Cinematic disaster? crashed a studio.

9:35

Yeah. Heaven's Gate itself is actually quite

9:37

a beautiful movie to watch. And, you know, if

9:39

you have the patience is quite rewarding. And

9:41

I'm a fan of Andrew Dominic's work generally,

9:44

but I have to say that this one is

9:46

hitting an event diagram that is

9:50

makes me not wanna see it because the reason

9:52

people seem to be upset with it is

9:54

it is is brutalist. Right?

9:56

That it is just like like like

9:58

torture porn

9:59

of an icon.

10:01

And I mean that in the theoretical

10:03

sense, not necessarily what happens to Anadarko's

10:05

Marilyn Monroe on It's being compared to

10:08

the Passion of the Christ. Yeah. Right.

10:10

Yeah. That's a that's a tough one. I

10:12

mean, it's also Part

10:15

of me, the part of me that usually

10:17

talks with you in the first fifty minutes of these podcasts

10:19

were just like, man, we miss the old days of the

10:21

industry. I mean, every time something

10:23

slips loose. from

10:24

the algorithm controls. I

10:27

I kinda gotta give it You wanna support

10:29

it? Yeah. Whether it was confessed Fletch

10:31

last week, by the way, did finish it finally.

10:33

did not see the ending where John

10:36

Ham slides away in the back of the dragon.

10:39

Like that that sunk the

10:41

budget right there. Lot

10:42

of questions about his parentage. But yeah. And

10:44

who ended up on the throne?

10:46

Unclear.

10:47

Or in this case, whether it's

10:49

just like a exacting director

10:52

without

10:52

a history of, like, commercial

10:54

success, but, you know, obviously, aesthetic

10:58

and creative success, like, just

11:00

somehow gets the purse

11:02

strings loose. Right? Like, that that rarely

11:05

happens. He it's really he

11:07

there's a couple of pretty sensational androgenic

11:09

interviews of if one in sight and sound that is

11:13

hostile or can

11:15

it's contentious in a way that you rarely

11:17

see quote unquote celebrity interviews

11:19

anymore. And it's this journalist

11:22

for sight and sound, just essentially, like, calling

11:24

Andrew Dominic out. Not not even on

11:28

some of the, like,

11:30

I guess, social or worldview points

11:32

of the film, but, like, straight up on the aesthetics

11:35

of it or some of the decisions made. and

11:37

it's him going, but they're going back and forth. And

11:39

it's obvious that Andrew Dominic knows a lot about

11:41

what he's talking about. Clearly, he's a masterful filmmaker,

11:43

but he's also like, deeply immersed

11:45

in the mythology and the lore of Marilyn

11:47

Monro. And it's an incredible

11:50

conversation. But, like, in that interview, I

11:52

think he says basically, like, Yeah.

11:55

Like Netflix, like, writes you a check, and then they're

11:57

like, when can we upload

11:59

this,

11:59

essentially?

12:01

also, isn't this interview isn't he also, like, no

12:03

one watches Marilyn Monroe movies? And the -- Yeah. --

12:05

interviewers, like, yes, I watched these three, and he's,

12:07

like, why would you do that? Right. Yeah.

12:10

that's so crazy. I Are you

12:12

gonna watch it? No. I gotta admit

12:14

just personal facts about me, don't care about Elvis,

12:17

and don't care about Marilyn.

12:19

Chris, this is why we're friends. I've

12:21

never heard it stated so

12:23

succinctly. I I don't care about those

12:26

people and I never have. Is it

12:28

are we No. I I know. I'm not bragging. I

12:30

think that that might be, like, in a deficiency, like,

12:32

I can't truly appreciate the work of Grayell

12:34

Marcus kind of thing, but, like, I

12:37

don't really like, Elvis has never

12:39

meant anything to me. Well,

12:41

he was a hero to most, I believe. That's

12:43

right. to quote to quote a

12:45

a better writer and think of either of us on

12:47

the mic. Well,

12:49

it's really interesting. So I I see

12:51

you by the way. And

12:53

I see what you're doing. You're about

12:55

to pivot into talking

12:57

about television shows of the week as if that was

12:59

all of the news. And I appreciate

13:01

it. I respect the gambit, but your silence

13:03

on this issue cannot ring out on this

13:05

podcast any longer. Of course. Too

13:08

too long now, Chris. you

13:09

have been mute on the subject

13:12

of the epics channel rebranding itself

13:14

as MGM Plus, and I will not stand

13:17

for it. Yeah. If

13:19

you follow Bill Simmons on Twitter, he

13:21

he addressed this, and he addressed

13:24

whether or not he and I were involved in

13:26

the the sort of rebranding of

13:28

epics turning into MGM plus and

13:30

its flagship show, the

13:32

Lila Hammer, so to speak, of --

13:34

Yep. -- of MGM plus is

13:36

gonna be a show called

13:38

hotel cocaine. Is

13:40

it hotel cocaine or cocaine hotel?

13:42

I mean,

13:43

which one would you if I walked in and I'm just

13:45

like, look, I got this Show and

13:47

and

13:48

broad strokes. It's about a cocaine

13:50

filled hotel or a hotel filled with cocaine.

13:53

Is it called cocaine hotel? Or

13:55

is it called hotel cocaine? No.

13:57

It's called cocaine hotel. It has to be. But

13:59

what's what is the actual show that they're talking

14:01

about called? Hold, please. Kaya, could you put in

14:04

some Chernobyl music while I search

14:06

this? It's a Chernobyl time Googling. because

14:08

I was gonna say, like, some like, the jeopardy music, but

14:10

don't we always say Kaya play the Renewable Music.

14:13

That's a major Iger counter, and

14:15

we we talk about Bob Iger.

14:17

Oh, well -- Yeah. -- look, it's

14:19

the same geniuses who are like, Nobody

14:21

understands epics. What they understand

14:24

is a defunct movie studio with a plus

14:26

symbol at the end of it. It's hotel cocaine,

14:28

terrible name. You know what I don't understand? hotel.

14:31

Cocaine hotels. Cocaine watches it.

14:33

Yeah. I thought Amazon bought MGM.

14:35

They did. And so you read these articles

14:38

and they're like, this is a brilliant streamlining

14:40

of Amazon's product across three

14:42

broad categories with freebie

14:44

ad supported. Amazon Prime

14:47

Video elves, I guess, and

14:49

now MGM Plus Forest

14:51

Whittaker in Coconut Hotels. Look, I

14:53

it's tough out here for any media service. I'm

14:55

only partially joking. It's just they

14:59

they make worthwhile things. I'm sure they will continue

15:01

to make worthwhile things. I want people keep jobs and

15:03

I want more and more shows being made and opportunities

15:05

for creatives. But

15:07

it doesn't this feel like a

15:10

we honestly don't know what we're doing move. In

15:12

the sense of, I don't know there

15:14

are couple of these recently that stand out where

15:16

it's just like the boys in marketing

15:19

need to take five. You know what I mean? Like, they've been

15:21

locked in there with k cups

15:23

and

15:23

ambition and

15:25

impossible deadlines for way too long.

15:27

Maybe like a two or three more too

15:29

too many days at the the cocaine hotel.

15:31

Too many. Maybe a few more you know,

15:33

maybe they get, like, a three night package. Right.

15:36

It it it is these

15:38

decisions that you could just feel

15:41

the flop sweat emanating from them and they just

15:43

don't make sense. Like, the

15:45

biggest example of this for me recently, Chris,

15:47

was and

15:48

it comes from epics as well. Now I

15:50

know again because you've been deeply invested

15:52

in the epic story for a while now, you

15:54

have been diligently watching the first

15:56

two seasons of show called Penny Worth,

15:58

which

15:59

was a flagship

15:59

show on epics.

16:01

Now in the studio stuff and Warner

16:04

Brothers and Discovery and Rebranding, this

16:06

show has now moved to its

16:08

new home, which aligns it with its

16:10

studio, and with all the other

16:12

IP drawn from this

16:14

same well. for its third

16:16

season. The third season of this

16:18

show has now been officially titled Penny

16:21

Worth, Colon, the origin

16:24

story of Batman's Butler. I

16:27

mean, I don't have any I don't have any jokes.

16:29

I can't make that better or worse.

16:31

But they obviously must have gotten some feedback

16:33

where people were like, I'm not watching a show

16:35

called PennyWirth. Mhmm. And

16:38

then

16:38

they said, could I interest you in a show about Batman's

16:40

Butler, though? Well,

16:42

then call it Batman's Butler. You know what I mean?

16:44

You cowers. Like, come on.

16:48

How does it bring cocaine hotel

16:50

and Batman's Butler together? Oh,

16:52

also the well, I think you just

16:54

offer him like a spa treatment. It'll show

16:56

up. I I just

16:58

feel also strongly about that. This is I

17:01

felt this after watching

17:03

the Batman. as you you know, I did.

17:05

Like,

17:06

I'm all for giving preexisting

17:10

legacy characters more compelling

17:12

backstories. but that backstory being

17:14

involved just uniformly being

17:16

they were in the special forces. Yeah. Yeah.

17:18

I I'm not buying it. You

17:20

know

17:20

what I mean? Like Also, just like straight

17:22

up when I mean, my I think

17:25

the most memorable

17:26

Alfred that I can

17:28

remember is Michael Caine's. and

17:29

him just being like, I won't bury it on the batman.

17:32

You know, like, that is like, I don't think of

17:34

him as a young SAS soldier.

17:37

by the way, this is just like the trip with

17:39

Steve Guggen. Like like, that was just I can't even

17:41

compete with your Michael K limitation. But

17:44

the lights that we have to be in it. Chris,

17:47

who's

17:47

gonna stand up for the butlers who just want to buddle?

17:49

You know what I mean? Like I wish

17:51

to stand on fellows. He

17:53

should speak up on this. Like, yeah. Just

17:56

ironing a crisp pocket square and

17:58

dressing an adult man

17:59

without smurking. Those used to be

18:02

skills in this country that we respected. You

18:04

know? the origin story

18:06

of his butler. Would If I could learn

18:08

how to polish silver, come on. I wanna

18:11

talk about the origin story of the galactic

18:13

rebellion.

18:14

Yeah. rather do that. I'd rather commoditized in or

18:17

before we do it, can I just say really quickly? Mhmm.

18:19

We try to make recommendations on this podcast

18:21

when can. And there's a book out this week that Andy

18:24

and I both read and adored called Stay True

18:26

by Wasu, you know, May no Was from his

18:28

work. in the New Yorker. He

18:30

wrote frequently for Graham and he's been on

18:32

this podcast before when he appeared on our nineteen

18:35

ninety seven music special. All those Years

18:37

ago when we were just like doing that out of

18:39

an office at Sunset Gower, shout out

18:41

to Tate. And this

18:44

book is a extraordinary. We hope to have Wai

18:46

on very soon to talk about it.

18:48

But if anybody's looking for something to pick

18:50

up, it's a memoir about

18:53

Wastime in college for the most part

18:55

and growing up in the nineties in in

18:58

the Bay Area in in Berkeley. But

19:00

it's so much more it's a lot of it is about memory,

19:02

a lot of it is about music, lot of it is about culture

19:04

at the time and the way in which people

19:07

found one another and found culture, it's

19:09

one of my favorite books I've read in a really long time.

19:11

So if if you hear my voice, it comes

19:13

with me and Andy's highest recommendation.

19:15

It's such a masterful work and

19:17

IIII by the way, that was one

19:19

of your best segways because this really is the origin

19:22

story of your boys. In a way, like, our

19:24

life isn't was. We didn't experience

19:26

the same anything that he did. In some ways,

19:28

it's certainly not the meat of the book is about as

19:30

a friendship that he made in college

19:33

and an untimely death. But Specifically,

19:37

it it was wild to read a book about

19:39

a generation that was our generation where

19:42

maybe

19:42

the last generation where it was about things

19:44

and concrete items and CDs

19:47

and tapes and scenes and books.

19:49

And I just was really

19:52

moved by it and blown away by the book. And I

19:54

think I I think people of all ages will connect

19:56

to it just because it's such beautiful story about being

19:58

a certain age in life, but it is just it is to

20:00

my mind, like, the definitive book about people

20:02

exactly our age. Congratulations,

20:05

Juan. I know. III

20:07

don't know if that's the poll quote that he wants, but

20:09

I I couldn't get over that. Alright. Let's

20:12

do it. By the way, if you listen to this podcast

20:14

at this point, I feel like you have a passing

20:16

interest in people who are literally our age.

20:18

Yeah. That's true. I don't know if that's a compliment

20:20

to you guys listening, but it we're

20:22

telling on ourselves. So okay.

20:25

I wanna get through Andor. We have about know,

20:27

I I we wanna get to our Sterling interview.

20:29

Mhmm. But I wanted to ask you this sort

20:31

of macro question about it before I dive

20:34

into some details the episode. This

20:36

episode four, all Donnie. It was the first one

20:38

written by Dan Gilroy, which is Tony Gilroy's brother,

20:40

who had accomplished screenwriter and director in his

20:42

own right, did Nightcrawler. And The

20:45

thing I wanted to start with Andy was the

20:47

experience of watching him. Yep.

20:49

So for the for what it's worth, Andy and I

20:52

I think the four episodes were released to

20:54

press initially. So we got the three episode

20:56

batch that everybody got, and we got a a sneak

20:58

preview where we got to to watch for us. That was

21:00

very cool. but it

21:02

didn't change the experience that everybody

21:04

else had, which is essentially

21:06

you could actually watch it in real time if

21:08

you were looking at like any kind of like social

21:10

media discussion of Pandora of people being

21:13

like, that first one was pretty good. That

21:15

second one was pretty good. Yo,

21:17

that third one was the shit.

21:19

Oh my god. And then, like, that kind of cumulative

21:21

effect that the three episodes had on people.

21:23

Tony Gillmor has been really explicit about

21:26

blocking out the season in three episode

21:29

arcs and how that's sort

21:30

of the way they told the story. Director writer pairings

21:33

on those three episodes, but also You

21:35

know, I mean, it's essentially like serialized

21:38

storytelling in the most

21:39

pure sense of it where this

21:41

episode of Andor ends with

21:44

a guy being told do some homework. It's not

21:46

exactly a cliffhanger. You know, you get very

21:48

excited about what's gonna happen. But I

21:50

was wondering if you had any comments about

21:53

watching this

21:54

one slice of what will be a three

21:56

part story?

21:58

For me, it was the deal it was a closer.

22:01

This was I I loved the first three,

22:04

and I think we even said this briefly

22:06

or alluded to this when we spoke to Tony. Initially,

22:08

I intended to just watch those three before we talk

22:10

to So it would be on the same pace

22:13

as as the the broader viewing public.

22:15

But I couldn't resist, and I fired up for

22:18

and

22:18

I got to watch it for pure pleasure. And

22:20

four in a way was the episode where I was like,

22:22

oh my god, they're really doing it. Mhmm. And and

22:25

by it, I mean, telling such

22:28

for me, thrilling and smart

22:30

and grown up and ambitious and expansive

22:32

story. In some ways, the

22:34

cross cutting in this episode was

22:36

more more dazzling and compelling to

22:39

me than the cross cutting in the first three,

22:41

which was, you know, the present day and kind of

22:43

a brief and sometimes an intentionally

22:46

unintelligible childhood origin

22:48

story of Kash and Andor. Right? Like,

22:51

I I was

22:52

pretty excited because the you literally

22:55

the galaxy opens up. We see

22:58

what Louthan is is re who he really

23:00

is. We see him in both worlds we

23:02

see Coruscant, we feel the empire,

23:05

like the the the terrifying heat

23:07

emanating off of it in a way that we

23:09

didn't really feel on the, you know, on

23:11

what was the name of the the

23:13

town that they were in the beginning that it

23:15

doesn't matter. But, like, from that more distant outpost,

23:17

we don't feel it as much. Now, we're right in the heart of

23:19

it. And this episode

23:22

in addition to introducing just wonderful

23:24

characters and set pieces and ideas,

23:28

this

23:28

episode has a moment that

23:30

I I just don't wanna gloss over --

23:32

Mhmm. -- which is

23:34

when

23:35

they land on Aldani. Aldaniya.

23:37

And andor is now

23:39

Clem. Mhmm.

23:40

the

23:42

And they are doing the hike back to

23:44

the group of rebels. And

23:47

all of a sudden, it's get down, get

23:49

down, get down in this beautiful, foggy,

23:52

UK terrain. I don't know where they filmed this.

23:54

It's I mean, I just said planned at Scotland, but

23:56

yeah. Exactly. And

23:59

a tie fighter screams

24:01

across. And in

24:03

that one moment, there was more,

24:06

to me, more gravity and

24:08

mystery and fear and

24:11

possibility in a

24:13

tactile way than in the last I don't know

24:15

how many Star Wars movies. Yeah. That was it,

24:17

and that one shot to me. about what the show

24:19

is trying to do and what it can do

24:21

in the way it can just kind of enliven

24:24

us. It was thrilling to me. Yeah. It kind reminded

24:26

me of and and this wound up being

24:28

a rather unintentionally poetic image

24:31

for the the the newest

24:33

trilogy that we got. But

24:35

in the trailer for the Force Awakens,

24:37

and you saw the the star

24:40

destroyer kind of like dug into the earth.

24:42

Yeah.

24:42

And then in the first scene, I think of Force

24:44

Awakens, Ray is kind of scavenging it

24:47

Yes.

24:47

A beautiful scene. Maybe this was the

24:49

best moment since that. Exactly. And in some

24:51

ways, it was like that that kind of

24:54

you can have all of the stuff that makes

24:56

Star Wars eye popping, but

24:59

it has to be scaled against, like, some kind

25:01

of humanity. And

25:02

it's these two people who are sort of figuring

25:04

out who each other is and whether

25:07

they need each other or not as they're walking across

25:09

these Highlands. And then all of a sudden

25:11

something extraordinary, like, interrupts

25:13

their their conversation. And

25:15

and that's again why this marriage

25:18

between between Tony, between Luke. I'm

25:20

got him blanking on his name, the production designer,

25:22

between Tony and Cole. Is it is Luke's size?

25:24

Yeah. Who's just this is his, like, oh my

25:26

god, flexing episode. I'm sure of many to come

25:29

of of of Tony's

25:31

kind of real political writing style and then

25:33

the entrenched Jedi council at

25:35

Star Wars of like Paulo Hidalgo we mentioned last

25:38

week and others really shines

25:40

because in

25:40

this episode and I wanna talk about some of the specifics, I

25:42

wanna talk about some of great actors that show up,

25:44

which was just also thrilling.

25:47

But every set built

25:50

here is built for a reason

25:52

with story and weight behind it. It's

25:54

not just where haven't

25:56

we had a lightsaber battle, where we haven't had

25:58

one in front of lava in a while or in front

26:00

of waves, those aren't places, those are

26:02

ideas, those are zoom backdrops

26:05

basically. Here, we see

26:08

essentially Langley. Right? Like the CIA

26:10

headquarters of the empire. And we've seen

26:12

all white rooms before we've seen these

26:14

uniforms, these pristine empire outfits

26:16

since the seventies. But seeing the

26:18

outside of Langley and meeting Denise

26:20

Gough's character as she approaches on her

26:22

daily commute tells me more about

26:25

everything. Why they build the building like this?

26:27

Why they dress this way? That it's populated

26:29

by people with jobs. Mhmm.

26:32

We're showing up for work. you know,

26:34

it communicates so much in a way that

26:36

as I'm hearing myself talk, it just seems

26:38

basic, but we haven't been given that before.

26:41

Yeah. I love that ISBC scene. obviously,

26:43

Anton Lesser who played Tyrone

26:45

in Game of Thrones.

26:48

I imbues that character I

26:51

think it was Patricas. What's his name? Like, is

26:53

that the name of the the the That's alright. I promise I'll

26:55

do better with the names because I care too much. But

26:57

otherwise, it's gonna be tricky. But he his

26:59

whole, like, we're health inspector speech, which

27:02

we mentioned, you know, to Tony, that was,

27:04

like, very similar to the Eric Bayer speech

27:06

in in born legacy where he's like,

27:08

you

27:08

know, they're going through all these sort of reports

27:10

on these outcome agents, these born

27:12

Jason, born type agents. And the guy

27:14

is like, oh, we gotta we gotta, like,

27:16

research

27:17

this more. This is awesome. Like, it looks like

27:19

it's working and he's like, it's not working and we gotta

27:21

find out how much to cut to

27:22

save the patient, and it's like a very similar

27:25

both occupation and also way of talking

27:27

about the occupation they have. I have a

27:29

couple of notes here about stuff I love from it. So we

27:31

could just, like, run through it and you can just jump in

27:33

when you're, like, rest that too. Obviously,

27:36

we just talked about the ISB afternoon

27:38

meeting. I also like the implication that the ISB

27:41

while terrifying is

27:42

also like Kathy

27:45

Ann could have just as easily slipped through their fingers

27:47

to use a Star Warsism. Like, it's

27:49

only because the teacher says sees, like,

27:51

on her iPad, like, Oh,

27:53

wait, that's the that's the machinery that

27:55

I've been looking for. Like, I

27:57

mean, in an era where the

27:59

j j Abrams, like, it doesn't matter Mcguff

28:02

monkeys Paul Roberts foot has become

28:04

the the device that gets you into

28:06

bigger story. This is such an

28:08

antidote to that. Eight piece of machinery

28:11

that I've never heard of, but of course must exist

28:13

in a fictional universe in which hyperspace

28:15

travel is possible. That's

28:17

the thread. that you pull

28:19

that will reveal the rebellion?

28:22

Mhmm. I

28:23

love that. I mean, remember, we're tracing

28:25

the

28:25

the rebellion that leads to the

28:27

first Star Wars trilogy, and it comes from inventory.

28:30

Yeah.

28:30

The double lives of

28:33

Luther and Mammotho, like, that's straight

28:35

out of Lucare, but the moment

28:37

where Skarsgard drops

28:40

one, like, mask to put on

28:42

another, you know, and he goes from being the

28:44

hard ass Spymaster to

28:46

being this fabulous antiquities dealer

28:49

is How many actors could do that? No.

28:51

And then also how many filmmakers

28:54

in a high pressured IP universe

28:56

would take the time for that shot where

28:59

he changes his body. and he

29:01

changes the way he stands and shout out

29:03

to our guy Luke who just gonna call Luke because I feel very

29:05

intimate with him now for designing the

29:07

spaceships like, drop down

29:09

seasonality. Yeah. Yeah.

29:12

Incredible. And Genevieve O'Reilly, by the way, is

29:14

phenomenal. That scene with her husband is,

29:16

like, better than most marriage scenes.

29:18

on any other TV show. When he's just

29:20

like it's like, I'm so bored, can't

29:23

we have a fun dinner party? Yeah. He says, must

29:25

everything be sad and boring?

29:27

Yes. And I guess

29:29

he's been watching House of the Dragon too, so I'm

29:31

thrilled with that. Wow, shots. I would

29:33

just also throw out there Dory's

29:36

ability to keep threads alive. So

29:39

there's a version of the show that's

29:40

a plus that

29:42

does not have going back

29:44

home with his hat in his hand and getting slapped

29:46

by his mother -- Which mother also

29:49

completely explains why he acts

29:51

the way he acts in the previous three episodes

29:53

it was just such a perfect button. And

29:56

also, like, obviously, they keep him in there because

29:58

he's I I would imagine gonna

29:59

turn up into

30:00

some other capacity as the show goes on.

30:03

but you could just have dropped him

30:06

and then picked him back up again in episode

30:08

seven if you needed to. But to have that

30:10

moment was so great. the

30:12

moment where he's dressed down where they're all dressed

30:14

down and it's it's this this action

30:17

by one

30:18

ambitious vain full

30:20

will lead to the empire takeover of

30:22

an entire sector is so well

30:24

done. And I I had to watch it again because

30:27

I'm so used to tuning out when

30:29

people just say space shit or

30:31

sci fi shit. You know, I'm like, okay, I don't or even in

30:33

Marvel movies, like, I don't need to know about the

30:36

Tesser Act. Like, it's just let's

30:37

move on to the next part. I

30:39

rewatch the scene and what the guy was saying

30:41

was, I need you to hollow inventory

30:44

everything and then hollow sign it. So

30:46

it's literally just saying space word in

30:48

front of bureaucracy words. I

30:51

loved it. And or just that one moment that they

30:53

found room for where the guy

30:56

who led the military assault, you know, and got in

30:58

his ear last week, the the sort of stout Scottish

31:01

guy

31:01

raises his hand as if he wants to say something

31:04

in his defense. I know.

31:06

These little moments. Now we should talk about

31:08

the the little rebellion cell. They're doing a western.

31:10

Yeah. I was just gonna say planet Scotland

31:13

and the planning of the Star Wars: Guns of

31:15

Navaron, which is basically an impossible

31:17

mission where the planet is so crazy nobody would

31:19

be expecting it. This has happened bunch

31:21

of times in Star Wars. It's also like tried

31:23

and true trope of of

31:26

westerns of World War two movies. It's

31:28

like we you know, they will never expect us

31:30

to go up the mountain face you know, so we have

31:32

to go up mountain phase. Goddamn.

31:34

Pretty pumped up about this and

31:37

mostly pumped up because

31:39

as we get to know who these people are,

31:41

We

31:41

get Evan

31:42

Moss Batterack as a guy named

31:44

Skien who was my favorite York

31:46

Mixtape DJ of the early two thousands, I don't know

31:49

about you. he did great stuff. He had access

31:51

to the Fuji camp, I believe. A lot of early Lauren

31:53

Hill stuff. That's right. What did you think of the

31:55

the dirty dozen that we got? And Alex Lawther,

31:57

Yeah. A great great British actor you might know

32:00

from end of the fucking world or Howard's end.

32:02

Like, these are the decisions that

32:04

smart people make that elevate

32:07

all of it. Yeah. And also Faye Marseille who played

32:09

the wave on Game of Thrones. Yeah. They

32:13

every single person that's introduced with

32:15

such again, like, Gilroy and Economy,

32:18

immediately has a face I'm gonna remember,

32:20

has a point of view or a voice

32:22

or a Like, I get it. they're not just

32:25

red shirts even though that may be their fate. You

32:27

know? And like Alex Lothar

32:29

is just not who you'd expect to see in the rebellion,

32:31

which immediately makes him interesting. he's a little more

32:34

sensitive or quiet and he smiles when they

32:36

meet Clement for the first time. They're like, okay, it's gonna be

32:38

a little bit different. Evan Mossback rack

32:40

should be in space. He should be in all these

32:42

rooms, frankly, especially after his work on the

32:44

bear. He's they're

32:46

all going to be interesting. And I think

32:48

that lesser shows and lesser filmmakers

32:51

could get nervous. Like, this

32:53

is show called Andor. We have Diego

32:55

Luna. We are delivering an origin story

32:57

for a character. We already know where this is going.

32:59

So let's all calm down and not get too

33:02

cute, not get too complicated. Let's not

33:04

take our eyes off the primary ball, but

33:06

that's not what this show does and it's all better

33:08

for it. All

33:09

great points. Obviously, this is one of

33:11

our favorite shows in the year, so we're gonna keep talking about

33:13

a week to week. Andy, I would really remiss

33:15

if we didn't talk a couple of minutes about reservation

33:17

dogs before we get into your interview with Stalin.

33:20

I just in some ways,

33:22

the end of this season made me Even

33:25

more excited for the next season than the end of last

33:27

season did. I in some ways, I wonder whether

33:29

Sterling would call this the end of version

33:32

one of the show. mean, it kinda concludes

33:34

the Daniel plot line. It

33:37

was, you know, one of the most tender,

33:39

beautiful pieces of television I've seen in

33:41

a while. this has been a remarkable

33:44

season of TV.

33:45

III don't mean to not have

33:47

any notes on it. It's just like I'm still kind

33:49

of processing it. What did you think?

33:51

I was totally em emotionally bold

33:53

over by it,

33:54

not a dry eye in my face.

33:57

was gonna say in the house, but I

33:59

watched it alone. I'm in awe of the show.

34:01

I feel like we've been III don't I

34:04

I feel like I've been trafficking in superlatives recently

34:06

good and bad, and I I wanna try and stay away from

34:08

that. But Let's just say you could easily make

34:10

a case that this is the best show on television. It's

34:13

certainly the most consistently rewarding

34:16

and surprising show on television. I

34:18

don't think there's anything that it can't do and

34:20

-- Mhmm. -- more than anything else. It's

34:22

absolute

34:24

respectful and caring love for its

34:27

for its characters and its ensemble. I just

34:29

find really moving both as a fan of the medium, but

34:31

specifically just as fan of this show.

34:33

You know, it How do you reach a point

34:36

on the beach that is at once

34:38

the accumulation of twenty episodes of television

34:40

that often veered wildly from

34:42

this idea as a central motivating

34:45

force with

34:47

actors who, two years ago,

34:49

a year and a half ago, We're

34:50

not just unknowns to us, but some of them

34:53

like lane factor weren't actors, and

34:55

draw that performance in that level of pathos

34:58

out of them and direct it in a way that it communicates

35:00

what you're trying to communicate, and then end

35:02

with the saxophone player from the Lost Boys on

35:04

the beach. And if I'm the beach Thank you, Betsy.

35:06

Yes. That's right. it

35:09

is just the most warmhearted, generously

35:11

spirited program. And, like, this

35:13

is I don't think I'm alone in this. Like, when people ask me

35:15

now what to watch, I just say this. Yeah. Because

35:18

it

35:18

doesn't need our help because it is

35:20

getting renewed and FX seems to be a really good

35:22

install work partner for it. But, like, More

35:24

people should be watching it. Just you

35:26

deserve that in your life, people who aren't watching,

35:28

you deserve to see what the medium can do and

35:30

to be in this world. I would say

35:32

probably there's there's a run at episodes.

35:35

I

35:35

would say 345

35:36

and six this season -- Mhmm.

35:39

-- are about as good

35:41

as you can string together a few episodes. Mabel,

35:44

widenet, d

35:46

colon i d colon i

35:47

d colon ivisit ivisation, and

35:50

stable cheesy boy or just like this

35:53

incredible run of episodes. We

35:55

said that last year too. Remember, like, where the show was like,

35:57

oh, this is really good and then suddenly it went into its

35:59

solo

35:59

episodes. I did that. Like like like when kiss put

36:02

out four solo albums before getting back together and

36:04

you're like, oh my god. That's excuse me.

36:07

it's

36:07

just dazzling, but I just there's

36:09

such confidence in its looseness.

36:11

You know, that that's the thing. Like, it

36:14

can take us anywhere and you're great. last

36:16

week's episode offerings was tonally

36:19

such a wild turn from the

36:22

acid trip episode the week before you're

36:24

just in it. And then PaulinaLexus is just

36:26

as Willie Jack is just like holding

36:28

it down for you. Yeah. And you know that you're

36:31

you know you're gonna go somewhere and see something.

36:33

I it's

36:34

crazy. I mean, I'm glad I get the chance to talk to Sterling

36:36

about it because it's just I think that what he's doing

36:39

is this this is sort of a I've

36:41

this is a word I struggle with saying, but I think what he's

36:43

doing is kind of important, not just because in terms

36:45

of representation, which is clearly

36:47

meaningful and and really impactful, just

36:50

what he's doing for the medium. just

36:52

making beautiful stories like this.

36:54

I'm so glad that this show exists. I can't wait to

36:56

hear your interview with Sterling. We can wrap it up there. We'll

36:58

be back on Monday. We'll talk drag and we'll talk some other

37:00

stuff. I can't wait to do that. Thank you to Kai McMullen

37:02

for producing us and we'll talk to you next week. Let's

37:04

talk rings. I wanna go back to elves.

37:06

I I've had enough dragons, I think.

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Alright.

38:00

Well, now I am so thrilled

38:02

to be joined for the second year in a row. by

38:04

the creator and showrunner of absolutely

38:07

handstand one of the best shows on television, reservation

38:09

dogs, Sterling Hardjo. Thank you for coming back on

38:11

the watch. Thanks for having me. Thanks for

38:14

all the all the love you

38:16

guys gave us. That was good. Well,

38:17

as you know, I'm a fan

38:19

of of you and your work. I'm also a fan of

38:21

you on other podcasts, and I I'm

38:24

a little intimidated because you were recently on

38:26

Fresh Air, the Terry Gross. and

38:27

you were great, and

38:30

you even sang on that podcast.

38:32

And you sounded amazing. Oh, wow. The

38:34

only person ever given me to do that would be Terry

38:36

Gross. Like, I literally,

38:38

like I told her at the beginning, I'm like, you

38:41

know, I I remember going, like,

38:43

if I make it on fresh air, like, I

38:45

know I made it, you know. Of course. Yeah.

38:48

And then I, like, there was a period where I was, like, I think

38:50

I have the windows closed. Like, I'm never gonna

38:52

be on fresh air now. And then

38:54

all of a sudden, I was on they they asked

38:56

me to be on it. I was like, oh, shit. Like,

38:59

my

38:59

dreams have come true. So I totally

39:01

understand that feeling. I just have to ask.

39:04

I know they don't edit heavily, but, like, when she

39:06

asked you to sing, did you pause? Was there any hesitation?

39:08

Or were you just There was no

39:10

edit there? Because she slowly built

39:12

that. Like, I could tell that's where she was headed.

39:15

And I was like, oh, shit. I just have

39:17

to remember the song. And I I usually sing

39:20

I can sing that song longer. But,

39:22

like, as I was doing it, I was

39:24

nervous that I was gonna get it wrong, and then

39:26

my whole family would disarm me back home.

39:29

You know, like, you had one shot. You know?

39:31

Yes. You're on the mic. Yeah. So I

39:33

gave it so just did the, like, very

39:35

short course. You did

39:37

great. and I won't ask you to sing today.

39:39

I'm just gonna I clear like, I could have been building

39:41

it up now, but I will not. So

39:44

I have I do have a lot of questions for you about

39:46

the creative process behind the show and

39:48

about the amazing second season. But because we're

39:51

talking on Thursday, the season two finale

39:53

has just aired. So I I wanted to start with the

39:55

end. And one thing

39:57

that I know you've heard

39:59

me praise you

39:59

in the show for and I'm not alone in this is just

40:02

the show's seemingly boundless expansiveness

40:05

that, like, you just keep widening past

40:07

the

40:07

core four to

40:09

create a series that can go anywhere and it

40:11

embed us with anyone, you know, whether it's

40:14

big on an asset trip or the aunties on

40:16

a kind of a current conference this season.

40:19

Yet, here we are in this in the season two finale

40:22

directly

40:22

addressing kind of

40:24

the inciting incident of the show

40:26

that

40:27

suddenly, and it did catch me off guard, that this

40:29

was still where we were going, that these

40:31

four friends we're still going

40:33

to go to California to honor Daniel.

40:36

Mhmm. How did

40:38

you creatively stay focused

40:40

on that story line and why was it important

40:42

that you did?

40:43

You know, I think that I

40:45

think that it was important that we

40:48

Hey, I didn't want the audience

40:50

to feel like they knew that was coming.

40:53

I don't know because there's something to me that would

40:55

have felt cheap about that. If, like, every episode

40:57

was, like, here's a new piece of the

40:59

story unfolding that they're gonna go to California,

41:01

you know. I I

41:03

constantly just try to think of, like, different

41:05

ways to different

41:08

ways for the story to go. You know, like, I I think

41:10

of, like, how do I change this from

41:12

what I

41:13

would expect or someone else might expect?

41:15

You know, how do I flip it on its head? And

41:17

part of that was, well, let's not

41:19

have a build up for them to go to

41:22

California. Like, let's just drop

41:24

it on everyone right at the end of

41:26

the season.

41:27

the

41:30

And think part of that is built

41:32

into, like, I never wanted

41:34

the

41:34

suicide of Daniel to feel

41:36

cheap. or that I was, like,

41:39

using it as this, like, storytelling

41:42

device and and being exploitative

41:45

with it. And and

41:47

making this, like, making

41:49

this tragedy be like

41:52

like, help tell the story. Like, I never wanted to

41:54

lean on that. You know? Like, I always just wanted

41:56

it to be there as this

41:58

reminder, and

41:59

I always knew that they would go there.

42:02

I just

42:02

didn't know what season they would go there.

42:05

And then there was a point where in

42:07

the writer's room probably we were talking, like,

42:09

I I just didn't want to keep this

42:11

going. like, I didn't want the

42:14

threat or the the

42:16

idea of going to California to constantly

42:18

be what the show is about. I think the audience

42:21

would get bored by season three. If

42:23

it's like another season, I'm like,

42:25

well, they're raising money to go to California

42:27

again. You know? Like, which in a way

42:30

going to California at the end of season

42:32

two frees us up now to

42:35

do whatever again. in season three.

42:37

You know, like, in the way that you're saying, like, you

42:39

you like that it's free to expand anywhere.

42:42

Well, now, it's even even like,

42:44

we have even more room to expand, I think.

42:47

Yeah. I was

42:47

wondering about that specifically about you

42:49

as the creator. Where do you feel

42:51

that you've left us? You know, obviously, they

42:53

a

42:54

little precarious. They don't have a car.

42:56

Right. Bear can't get in touch with his

42:58

dad, not that he would necessarily be helpful.

43:00

And he announces at the end that he's not going

43:02

back. Right. in

43:04

your mind, I guess it's a two part question

43:06

that in terms of I don't want you to spoil anything

43:08

in terms of the actual mechanism of it,

43:10

but emotionally where do you feel they are at the end of

43:12

this? Well, I think that,

43:15

emotionally,

43:17

we're in that place where, you

43:20

know, you lose you you deal with something

43:22

and you heal from something. Right? And

43:24

a lot of times the pendulum swings too

43:26

far.

43:27

And

43:28

it creates a vacuum

43:31

or a void that

43:33

you have to fill. And

43:36

part of I think our life's journey

43:38

is like, you know, when you're like

43:40

thirty, you discover what the hell

43:42

is wrong with you in your twenties, you know.

43:45

and then and then you

43:47

you overcorrect, and

43:49

then you realize you didn't know anything. And then in your

43:51

forties, you're like, okay, now I'm trying to

43:53

balance this. and I'm trying

43:55

to get it right in the middle. You know, I

43:57

wasn't right in my twenties or my thirties,

43:59

but I'm gonna use my forties to

44:02

try and get somewhere in the middle and like

44:04

balance this life out. And I

44:07

feel like that's where we found them or at least

44:09

we found them where they have this void now. Like,

44:11

they have done the thing that they

44:13

they were going they were set out to do,

44:15

and there is some healing from that, and

44:17

there is healing

44:20

from loss of their friend. But

44:23

but you have two options after that. Like, you

44:25

either fill it with something

44:27

good or you fill it with something bad, you know?

44:30

And so I think that's where we find them. Howard Bauchner:

44:32

I have another specific question

44:34

about the the finale shoot, but the way

44:36

you answer that really made me wanna jump

44:39

to something that I've really come to notice about

44:41

the show and really appreciate, which is that while the focus

44:43

certainly, like, in the title, is on these four

44:45

particularly particular young

44:48

shit asses. Right. One underappreciated

44:50

aspect of the show is that you

44:52

really illustrate in such subtle and compelling

44:54

ways the way young should assesses become older should

44:57

assesses in a hurry. Right. And

44:59

then it's not just that like bear

45:01

has a roofing job, so he's grown up. Now

45:03

that's not the point. It's really more of the top down

45:05

perspective. The perspective you were just giving me

45:07

about, you know, trying to consider your life and

45:09

what you can do as you get older. Right.

45:11

On your show, the old people are often just as

45:13

totally pull acts by events as the young

45:15

people. they were the young people and we've had

45:17

some glimpses the season of them as the young

45:19

people and -- Okay. -- the sense of life

45:22

not as a

45:23

mono directional experience, but

45:25

then you're just kinda swimming and splashing

45:27

through it. Oh, and I think whenever I'm in my

45:29

sixties, I'll probably look back at my

45:31

forties and say, well, I thought I had

45:33

it. But in the mid to your sixties,

45:36

you're really trying to balance it out, which is where I

45:38

think we find the adults. And

45:40

I think that we see the

45:42

version of these

45:45

kids older that failed

45:47

to do it maybe the correct

45:49

way or the most healthy way, you know.

45:52

The the adult group is sort of all splintered

45:54

in kind of in different places. And now everyone's

45:57

kinda struggling with this thing that

45:59

they've never dealt

45:59

with.

46:01

the

46:02

And I think that there's things that

46:04

the kids can learn from that. And I think there's things

46:06

that the adults are gonna learn from the kids.

46:08

And I also think that that adult group

46:10

we're gonna have more folks come into play

46:13

with that, I believe. Yeah. That's exciting.

46:16

What was the the beach shoot like?

46:18

in the finale. It's an incredibly moving scene

46:20

and it's shot so beautifully. And I

46:22

imagine it was kind of heavy experience because

46:24

you have your core four actors on

46:26

this day and, you know, it was

46:29

in a way for me as a viewer, it was a celebration

46:31

of these actors who some of whom, you know, all none

46:33

of whom I knew a year ago. some

46:35

of whom, like Lane, from what I understand, wasn't even

46:37

an actor a year or two ago. Right.

46:39

And here they are delivering on

46:42

some of the heavy stuff you can ask actors to

46:44

do. Alright.

46:44

Man, was beautiful. It was you

46:47

know, it's like good this big thing of, like, I always

46:50

knew we were going there. we talked

46:52

about even season one going there, you know.

46:56

And so

46:58

we always knew that they would end up right

47:00

there. And man, it was like the

47:02

confidence of those actors was amazing

47:04

to just go there and there they are and

47:07

they're like, here we are. And there was this, like,

47:09

kind of wait

47:11

over everything. a, because we'd

47:13

had a pretty grueling season two shoot

47:15

Mhmm. -- like weather was insane and, like,

47:17

we were just, like, kinda beat up. And

47:20

here we are, and we we get to go to the beach

47:22

for the last days and

47:24

or the last day.

47:25

And, you know, also we had Daniel

47:27

with us, which he's not always with Dolton

47:29

isn't always with us. So Dalton

47:32

is there

47:33

watching them do the seams. So

47:36

he's always this reminder of this character

47:38

that, like, what the

47:41

shows about. You know? So there's an

47:43

certain amount of, like, responsibility that

47:45

comes with that, I think, to the it's like

47:47

Mhmm. -- it reminds them of what we're

47:49

doing. But was really

47:51

awesome. I mean, everyone, you know, everybody's in

47:53

wet suits and, like, We're out

47:55

there filming, and it's insane. Right? Like,

47:57

you think, like, oh, I've made it. I'm

47:59

in Hollywood, and I'm

48:02

a showrunner now. Like, there's gonna

48:04

be some, like, you

48:06

know and I'm sure, like, when

48:08

they did Roma, there was a great

48:11

thing that they had that made that easier.

48:14

But we're just in the water, you know? And it's

48:16

like, yeah, it's not easy. I've got safety

48:18

people there and it's like, yeah, you don't wanna go

48:20

too far in the water because it's dangerous.

48:24

And so we're just grabbing these pieces, you know.

48:26

And I'm just like directing and yelling. I'm like, you

48:28

know, people are running in and out and, like, cameras

48:30

trying to stay up and then the camera's breaking

48:32

down. You know, it's, like, breaking down and, like, pulling

48:34

back up and, like, We're trying to fix

48:36

it and then we're fixing it and, you know, it's

48:38

breaking and and then in the middle of

48:40

all of that, there's these great

48:43

moments with all of them and

48:44

there's this, you know, the moment where cheese is

48:46

giving his speech. Mhmm. Lane

48:48

was doing a great monologue. I

48:50

just saw him doing this great monologue. It was beautiful.

48:53

I cut and we started moving on to do other

48:55

coverage. And

48:56

I just

48:58

happened to glance over and

49:00

I saw it all hitting lane. like

49:03

all of a sudden, the weight of everything had hit him

49:05

after we had shot

49:07

his coverage of his

49:09

speech. And

49:11

so I just, like, grab you know,

49:13

everyone, the DP and AD, I was like,

49:15

switch gears. And I but we should

49:18

land again. And they were like, yeah, we should.

49:20

So we all, you know, flipped

49:22

back on Lane, and I said, Lane, you

49:24

know, do your speech again. And

49:26

he did it. And it's like, that's that

49:28

raw everything was there,

49:31

and he he just did it so beautifully.

49:33

And, you know, I was just kinda throwing out lines

49:35

for him while we were doing it. And it was the idea

49:37

of, like, making it feel fresh and and

49:40

and and it needed it needed

49:42

to feel like it does now. It

49:44

needed to feel that way like it it is this

49:46

big moment with Daniel. And it's hard to write that

49:49

stuff. You know? Like, you want these moments to feel

49:51

really big and tell me Pico did a great job of

49:53

writing it.

49:55

But like, you know, and

49:57

we altered it and changed it, but

49:59

it's really hard

49:59

to know how the emotions and the feelings

50:02

gonna hit when you're in the water and

50:04

it's such a crazy shoot like that, you know.

50:06

And then he just nailed it. And he just, like,

50:09

like, it was, like, all of a sudden, everything clicked

50:11

in, and he knew what he needed to do.

50:13

And it became this really powerful moment, I think,

50:15

for for cheese, you know. And and

50:18

I don't know. It was like, I think I was worried,

50:20

you know, like, the footage. Right? Like, you're

50:22

worried, like, oh, shit. That was stressful. And

50:25

then started looking at it. It was like beautiful.

50:27

It was like, oh my god. Like, it feels has this whole feeling

50:29

of it's on itself, you know? It

50:32

feels great. It's like, I don't know. I had this, like,

50:34

Spide

50:34

Jones feeling.

50:36

And and then, you know, of

50:38

course, like, Tim Capello, like, you know, we

50:40

wrote that in there just like, Let's

50:42

do something that we can that no one

50:44

thinks real. We'll we'll do this, you know.

50:46

And what a great way till

50:48

I end it. Right? Like, And

50:51

we got this, like, found this, like, from

50:53

Jesus that's, like, blessed are those

50:55

that have not seen and yet still believe. And then

50:57

he's, like, I still believe, and then we go to Tim Cabelo,

50:59

and you know, like that's me and my dad watching

51:01

Lost Boys talking about that scene

51:03

for my whole life and

51:05

being able to put Tim Capello in there

51:08

and close it out. And then, like, you

51:10

know, just a little known fact

51:12

is that, like, the song I still believe

51:14

was written by Oklahoma and the lead singer of the

51:16

call. you know, so it was like, all

51:18

bringing back home and all men. And then,

51:20

also, if you look at the lyrics of that song,

51:22

like, it's very meaningful to, like, what's

51:24

happening to these kids and what they're going

51:26

through. Tim Capella is

51:28

one of the first things that he said when he showed up on

51:31

set was Well,

51:33

should I oil up now or later?

51:36

And I hope he's not the only actor ever to ask

51:38

you that. And, of course, you always

51:40

answer now. You know? oil up when you

51:42

can. I'm sorry. Having worked with him, I think Kirk

51:44

Fox asks that as well, whenever he goes to the

51:46

computer. Exactly. But but I I

51:48

love that because that moment those moments you're

51:50

describing in the episode It's the it's the

51:52

soul of the show, right, where it is deeply meaningful

51:54

and spontaneous but also considered and

51:57

baked into your experience and funny

51:59

and neither undercuts the other. And and I and

52:01

I wonder if that moment you've described about observing

52:04

something in lane if that's like a a useful

52:06

microcosm of something that that I know

52:08

constantly week to week on the show, which

52:10

is obviously you have great performers. Like these kids

52:13

are wonderful and you bring in really incredible

52:15

actors get to do things that we often haven't

52:17

seen them do. But again and again,

52:20

you cast people and like, oh, that guy's

52:22

dad or brother or the guy's on the roof,

52:24

people haven't seen that often. And I'm like, why

52:27

are these the best actors on TV this week?

52:29

Right? Week to week. Why is finding

52:31

talent? that other people are like, oh, I can't find

52:33

actors, not necessarily to play native roles, just to

52:35

play native roles. I mean, like, you know, I've

52:37

always had a knack for

52:40

have

52:40

like, I can have a conversations with someone

52:42

and know if I could get a performance out of

52:44

them and, like, it's also I think it's a

52:46

lot to do with casting and like,

52:48

how is that role written and can this person

52:51

kind of fit into this role? And I've just always had

52:53

a knack for that. I don't know why. Like, all of my films,

52:55

I've always cast like that. And I like how the

52:57

play I like how untrained actors

53:00

play with trained actors. I like how

53:02

trained actors have to step up and, like,

53:05

oh, man, this person's so real. Like, I have

53:07

to be real now. And vice versa,

53:09

the untrained actor sees the actor just,

53:11

like, unafraid and, like, going

53:13

forward that they're, like, oh, like, there's no time

53:15

for me to be worried. Like, I have to do this.

53:18

Two examples are, you know, in episode

53:20

209

53:22

we had last minute

53:24

sort of emergency and then a COVID thing

53:26

that I had to recast two roles. I

53:30

mean, like days before, you know.

53:32

And one is the

53:34

the old man Tupelo that's sitting in

53:36

the in the jail

53:39

talking to Willie Jack about

53:41

doing hero dose of mushrooms

53:43

than waking up as a jailbird, you know.

53:46

And that guy is his name is Steve

53:48

Mathis. and he is

53:50

this legendary gaffer. And he's

53:52

sort retired but then came out of retirement to

53:54

work on Resdog because he's from Oklahoma

53:56

and he lives here now. he just likes

53:58

to work on things he likes to work on

53:59

and like so he works on the show. But, I mean, if

54:02

you do a quick I

54:03

have DB search, I mean, or if you

54:05

go watch the show, the movies that made us,

54:07

he's in, like, three of them. I mean, he he's,

54:09

like, original Halloween. Like,

54:11

he -- Yeah. -- Jeff and that. He you know, back to

54:13

the back to the future, like, all all of this. I

54:15

mean, like, one time I was playing on

54:18

on a Bluetooth speaker and said that I was playing

54:20

a voice of Summer, the Diane Lisa.

54:23

and it was playing. Like, I'm kinda like

54:25

grooving to it and Steve comes by and starts

54:27

grooving with me and he's like, yeah, that was

54:29

a cool music video to work on. You know,

54:31

he tried to work on. everything. You know?

54:34

And so he's just his character, and I

54:36

I asked if he would wanna play the part.

54:38

And it was, like, last minute, and he was, like,

54:40

yeah, I'll do it. So he he,

54:42

you know, we dressed him up, and and

54:44

I think I'm gonna bring him back. And then

54:47

the other one was the the spirit,

54:49

Graham, that is He'll be spirit. So

54:52

that's Tava Samson. And,

54:54

you know, if you if you I'm sure

54:56

you're familiar with one flow of the KUKA's

54:58

nest. her grandpa's the famous

55:00

Will Samson. He's

55:03

the chief chief in the

55:05

and he was also in Poltergeist and

55:07

all of that. So

55:10

I originally

55:10

wrote an homage because she works on the

55:13

show. She's sat deck and works in our department.

55:15

And she I originally wrote an

55:17

homage to her grandpa where I was casting

55:19

her playing basketball with Hopi outside

55:22

in the Courtyard of the jail. kind

55:24

of, like, to mimic the scene of Will

55:27

Samson her grandpa and Jack

55:30

Nicholson playing basketball and I think

55:32

and my actor that was gonna

55:34

play the spirit, I got COVID, and

55:36

I couldn't be in. And so, like,

55:38

days before literally flipped it

55:40

and made her made Tava

55:42

be the spirit. And, you

55:45

know, it was all and she was originally just gonna

55:47

kind of give be giving an homage to her grandfather,

55:49

but, yeah, worked out really great. That's

55:51

amazing. Yeah. And

55:53

and and what you're speaking to is,

55:55

I think, connected to the question I wanted

55:57

to which is I just found myself talking about

55:59

your

55:59

show constantly over the last few weeks, both

56:01

on the podcast and just in in life. And

56:04

the thing that I can't get over, and I and I feel like I probably

56:06

said some version of this to you last

56:09

year as well. which

56:10

is just my main takeaway

56:13

from Res Dogs is just how deeply you

56:15

and your creative team care about these characters,

56:17

you know, not just the the core Res

56:19

Dogs, but Everybody has these moments of

56:21

respect and generosity and grace, whether it's

56:23

Jackie or the Anties or or or Kirk

56:26

Fox's Kenny Boy who suddenly has so much more to

56:28

do this season.

56:30

And

56:31

guess this might be a broad question, but

56:33

I'm curious what it sparks in you, which is how does

56:35

that care for these fictional people

56:37

as people manifest in the writing and

56:39

production. And the second

56:41

part of it is how does that how

56:44

does it keep it from being how do you you from being

56:46

overly protective of them because you love them,

56:48

but you're still willing to give them dramatic

56:50

stakes and situations and put them in peril.

56:53

Right.

56:54

mean, it's it's an interesting good

56:56

question because I don't know

56:59

the answer completely. I just know

57:01

that look, I

57:03

I really enjoy life. Like, I

57:05

really enjoy the way that I grew

57:07

up. I enjoy the people

57:09

that I come from. And, like, it was

57:11

a cast of characters. My whole

57:14

upbringing was like I mean, I felt

57:16

like I was living a movie honestly. And like,

57:18

you know, like, there were just so many stories

57:20

and I care about that

57:22

so much. And then you throw on top of that that there

57:25

hasn't really been a native show like this

57:28

to to really just like you

57:30

know, kick the door in and be like, alright. Like,

57:33

it's time. You know? And

57:36

and there's care that goes into that.

57:38

And it's like, the

57:41

you

57:41

know,

57:43

I'm not making

57:45

the

57:47

detective story. I'm

57:49

not making the cowboy versus Indian

57:51

story, you know, where everyone's got a

57:53

got

57:53

a bow low tie on and turquoise

57:55

ring. and jeans and cowboy boots. Like, I'm

57:58

not making that, you know.

57:59

I get to tell something that's real

58:02

and I know all of these people in the

58:04

writer's room, we know all of these people, and we

58:06

care about them. And then you throw on top of that,

58:09

these amazing actors. I mean I mean,

58:11

Elva who could place Jackie walked in

58:14

in an open audition in

58:16

Oklahoma City. And I met her. She had

58:18

a Wootenk clanchard on her hair

58:20

was bleach blonde. And

58:23

just like did this, like,

58:25

great audition. And

58:28

then I interviewed her after that.

58:30

I talked about her life, and she told me where she'd

58:32

come from. And, like, it's like, you know, I

58:34

thought it would be cool. Like, there's this show of a native

58:36

people. Like, I thought, why not?

58:39

I'll try. You know? And then, like, talking

58:41

about our lives and she's emotional and she's about

58:43

to make me cry and she's about to cry, you know,

58:45

and it's like, wants to be a filmmaker, and I know she

58:47

can be whatever she want. So you throw in these actors. I

58:49

mean, the guy who plays bummed that dog who's a part of

58:51

the bad guy getting, like, he came out and he's like, I'm a rapper.

58:54

And I just had him for restyle for me,

58:56

you know? And it's like, the all

58:58

of them almost got cast as

59:00

the main crew. And

59:03

whenever we did the final callbacks, I

59:05

told them when I come to my cast jobs, like

59:07

the bad guy again. So I've made the bad guy

59:09

again kind of come alive and become this other

59:11

thing. So I just care about

59:13

all of it and I don't know other than, like,

59:15

I just don't have much cynicism

59:18

in me and I don't.

59:20

the

59:21

It's like this first opportunity. I

59:23

wanna show it as a celebration. I want it

59:25

to be a celebration of these characters. of,

59:28

like, being natives, about, like, our community, about

59:30

the reservation. And

59:34

I don't know. Like, I find something to love in

59:36

all of them. I mean, it's, like, when you first meet

59:39

Jana's character, Beth, I

59:41

mean, she's pretty, like, scary, like, person

59:43

to be around. Like, she's not fun

59:45

at the at the IHS counter,

59:47

you know. But then you move into,

59:49

like, anti's night out and it or,

59:52

like, to a white as cast of white

59:54

net, I believe it's called. It was called Nancy's

59:56

night out for a while. And then she's

59:58

just wild and and awesome, but

1:00:00

also, like, real and touching and, like,

1:00:02

And I just find that that's what life is.

1:00:04

I mean, it's beautiful and it's also like everyone's

1:00:07

very complicated. No one's perfect. I

1:00:09

like celebrating human

1:00:12

beings and like how flawed we are,

1:00:14

you know. And and I think in native

1:00:16

communities because we're so close, because

1:00:18

it's such a close giant group. you

1:00:21

know,

1:00:21

whenever I was filming 209I

1:00:24

thought about my uncle Marty

1:00:26

a lot as we were filming it because my uncle

1:00:28

Marty, one of my first memories, is

1:00:31

going to a prison in Macallister

1:00:33

to visit him. That's like a four year old,

1:00:35

three year old, four year old child. And

1:00:37

it's one of my first memories. It's going to see

1:00:40

him he had been he went to jail a lot. But,

1:00:42

like, there was something just so special

1:00:44

about him and and awesome. I

1:00:46

remember, like, one time he came out of jail and we always

1:00:48

you know, we'd have, like, a dinner party form or

1:00:50

had dinner form. I'm like, he got a job

1:00:52

and he he'd been reading clippings.

1:00:54

I just got into film and doing this stuff and

1:00:57

in my uncle Marty, I never ever

1:00:59

thought he really would be in a mortgage,

1:01:01

you know. And

1:01:03

we're kind of like,

1:01:05

off to ourselves and he's got a you know,

1:01:07

he's kind of on the outskirts of the party because

1:01:09

he's sneaking a beer. And

1:01:12

he's like, I'm really cool what

1:01:14

you're doing. And I was cool what you're doing, like, the whole

1:01:17

the movie stuff. And I was like, yeah. He was

1:01:19

like, you know, I

1:01:22

kinda sat on it for a second. And he's like, my favorite

1:01:24

filmmaker Steven Spielberg. And

1:01:26

I was just like floored me. I was like, how do

1:01:28

you even like, what do you like, Like,

1:01:31

how like, where do you watch movies? Like, you know,

1:01:33

and he just watched his movie and reads in jail. You

1:01:35

know? And he's like, my favorite filmmaker, Steve is

1:01:37

Philberg. And he was like, and and the reason I

1:01:39

lack him is because he creates a world

1:01:41

for you. Like, it's his vision of the

1:01:43

world, and that's what he creates. seems like when

1:01:46

you watch Schindler's list. He said that's his

1:01:48

world that he's created. And

1:01:50

I and then it's through his eyes. You see,

1:01:52

it was, like, so profound to me to hear my uncle

1:01:55

say this person who was in and out of jail. And

1:01:57

there's beauty in these people that, like, I think,

1:01:59

get forgotten. But whenever you're in a tight

1:02:01

knit, larger community, and family, you

1:02:03

don't write people off as easy. And

1:02:05

and and I think that you see

1:02:08

those full human sides of people And

1:02:10

then, you know, my uncle died while we were filming

1:02:13

this episode, which is kind of about

1:02:15

Willy Jack going to connect with

1:02:17

this person. And this person isn't bad,

1:02:19

even though she's locked up and she did something bad,

1:02:22

like, there's this whole other side

1:02:24

to her that

1:02:26

Willie Jack and the audience gets to see. And I just

1:02:28

I don't know. Like, I like exploring that. I don't think

1:02:31

people are perfect, and I don't think that people

1:02:33

are all good or all bad. And and I think

1:02:35

sometimes there was a quote that I read in some film

1:02:37

book at one point. And think it was talking

1:02:39

about films in the nineteen seventies. I'm not sure

1:02:41

I don't remember, but it's like, characters are great

1:02:43

when they're when, you know, when they're exactly

1:02:46

the opposite of who you think they

1:02:48

are. It's like it's like that's what

1:02:50

surprises us in films. it's

1:02:52

when they are the opposite of what

1:02:54

we think they are and what we're used to seeing

1:02:56

in mass. And so I didn't play with that a

1:02:58

lot, I think, in reservation dogs. I think

1:03:00

the other manifestation of that that comes to mind

1:03:02

and particularly highlights the lack of cynicism

1:03:05

you're talking about in you and in the the world view

1:03:07

of the show. was the decollanativization

1:03:10

episode. I may have mixed up the words in that,

1:03:12

but I was really in awe about the way

1:03:14

that you're able to sew with the same tone

1:03:16

that the show always does just both satyrize

1:03:18

and celebrate at the same time. You

1:03:20

know, and and and and and so doing

1:03:22

give us a glimpse of hard

1:03:24

things that, like, as

1:03:26

a society, we're really struggling with how

1:03:28

to talk about or present Mhmm. -- you know,

1:03:31

Amber

1:03:31

Midthunder's great performances, miss

1:03:33

Maitre Arcu from the Bay Area, but her soul

1:03:35

is with her ancestors. Yeah. But

1:03:37

you're not dragging her. You know what I mean? She's

1:03:39

there too. She is a person who's there

1:03:41

too. Right. Why is it

1:03:44

important to you to be able to laugh and

1:03:46

nod at the same time in these in these

1:03:48

moments?

1:03:49

Yeah. I think that you

1:03:51

know,

1:03:51

I feel like that it's just like it's just

1:03:53

good storytelling. You know,

1:03:56

if I read I think I mentioned Flannery O'Connor

1:03:58

the last time when I was on guys. But if it's like This

1:04:00

is a safe space for Flannery O'Connor reference.

1:04:02

I promise. But whenever I

1:04:04

read that, it's like whenever I read her stuff,

1:04:07

I'm like, man, I'm so torn and

1:04:09

and it's so complicated. It's like

1:04:12

and and writing Amber Midunder's

1:04:14

character is this one note thing would

1:04:16

have would have just been another show.

1:04:18

Like, I like, the other shows can do that. Like, I don't

1:04:21

wanna do that. You know? Like like like,

1:04:23

I try not to hold judgment over them and, like,

1:04:25

I wanna seek You

1:04:27

know, they are really trying. They're really trying to

1:04:29

connect with these kids, and they're doing things that are, like,

1:04:31

positive. And they're actually opening kids up and,

1:04:33

like, you know, they're helping them share

1:04:35

their soul and, like, discover

1:04:38

things about themselves. But also, like,

1:04:40

they're a little out of touch, you know. And

1:04:43

And, you know, I grew up with people

1:04:45

talking to me like that, you know, at youth conferences

1:04:47

and things and, like and

1:04:49

actually, when you're young, you think, holy

1:04:51

hell. Like, I can I can get out of

1:04:53

here and be them. So a lot of times,

1:04:55

like, I bet half of the kids in watching mismatrial

1:04:58

art talk are like, yeah, she's awesome. Like, I

1:05:00

can, you know, be that. But then there's another

1:05:02

you know, and then you get older and you're a teenager, you're more

1:05:04

cynical about thinking, oh, this person's

1:05:06

full of shit, you know. So

1:05:09

I don't know. Like, it's really you

1:05:11

know, it's almost instinctual, I think. Like,

1:05:13

I don't like I don't plan that. You know? Like, I

1:05:15

don't we don't say, like, All I know

1:05:18

is if I read something that doesn't

1:05:20

feel

1:05:21

real, I just try

1:05:23

to I mean, a lot of times

1:05:25

you'll you'll you'll write

1:05:28

or you'll read something that just feels kind of

1:05:30

one note. And

1:05:31

that usually means

1:05:33

to me that there's something not

1:05:35

real. And a lot of times, like, something's

1:05:38

too one way or the other. like you're either Mhmm.

1:05:40

-- too good or too bad. And and and

1:05:42

if you're too good, I wanna put some flaws in there

1:05:44

and and muddy it up a bit because it feels

1:05:46

like real life to me.

1:05:48

one thing that's become III

1:05:50

mean, if it can be a tradition after two

1:05:52

seasons is that each Red Dog kinda

1:05:54

gets us a solo album, of an episode,

1:05:56

and it's such thrilled to see because they're

1:05:58

not what you expect them to be to the your point

1:06:01

just now. Like, I did not expect the Willy Jack

1:06:03

episode to be the one that it was. for example,

1:06:05

but the the cheese episode really stood out not

1:06:07

just as a showcase for what lane factor

1:06:09

has done with this part and his sort of emergence

1:06:12

as a performer. But in reading about it

1:06:14

the next day, I I read that the particular

1:06:16

some of the specifics of of Jesus experience

1:06:18

came from one of your writers -- Right. -- in

1:06:20

his experience. And I and I wondered especially

1:06:22

now that you're in the room again for season three,

1:06:25

how do individual stories manifest out

1:06:27

of your collective group? you

1:06:30

know, it's interesting. Like, thinking about season three.

1:06:33

I mean, like, I

1:06:34

think maybe that was an idea

1:06:36

that I threw out and you could just see

1:06:38

Bobby light up and then all of a sudden

1:06:40

it's you know. Mhmm. And then, like,

1:06:42

you see his draft and his life's in it,

1:06:44

you know. Mhmm. And

1:06:47

there's

1:06:47

no changing it too much.

1:06:49

you know, like, I, you know, like, I do a pass on

1:06:51

stuff, but, like, I you know, there's not much

1:06:53

I can do to that. There's so much reality

1:06:56

in

1:06:56

what he's doing. And it's such a

1:06:58

complex thing where it's like there's pain and

1:07:00

there's humor and there's all of this stuff. And

1:07:04

I can't imagine going through what

1:07:06

Bobby went through. You know, I had a

1:07:08

family that I could be home with, but like

1:07:10

being kind of, you know, having grow up and be

1:07:12

at a boy's home. for the two

1:07:14

years of my life as I become an adult

1:07:17

just because I was a graffiti artist. Like, every,

1:07:19

like, it's fucking nuts, you know. And

1:07:22

so, like, he really put himself into that

1:07:25

and it felt

1:07:27

you could feel it on the page, you

1:07:29

know.

1:07:31

thinking like right now, like, how the individual

1:07:33

stories happen? I don't know. It's very instinctual.

1:07:36

It's like, you know,

1:07:37

because, like, there's this thing. We have this core group.

1:07:40

And

1:07:41

you sort of like because

1:07:44

we're making a show about this core group of kids,

1:07:47

you wanna sort of

1:07:49

like, shoot them out of a shotgun

1:07:52

just for dramatic purposes of, like, boom,

1:07:55

get them away from each other. and then

1:07:57

and then you bring them back together. You know? And it's

1:07:59

sort of this, like, pulsing thing of, like,

1:08:01

wanting to make sure like like,

1:08:03

do they do it right or they do it wrong? what

1:08:05

happens when they separate, you know, because they're so

1:08:08

strong together and they're a family and they're a unit,

1:08:10

will the drama lies in, like, getting them apart.

1:08:14

and seeing who picks up the pieces and how that

1:08:16

works. And that's happening this

1:08:18

we've only been in the room for three days, but, like,

1:08:20

three or four days, but that's

1:08:23

already happening, you know, for this

1:08:25

and, like, like, this season, for

1:08:27

instance, like, for the third season. I

1:08:31

sort of have these, like, guiding guideposts

1:08:34

of, like, tell in the room, like, well, I would

1:08:36

like to see this be the case,

1:08:38

and this be the case, this season.

1:08:41

And so we kind of like everything

1:08:43

is kind of circular in those in these two

1:08:45

like posts that we have. And it's like, how

1:08:47

can we be more more this way

1:08:49

than the this sort of tone that I've set

1:08:51

up for the season, you know. And

1:08:54

then we throw out every name. It's like, well,

1:08:56

what you know, because we last season, we

1:08:59

didn't give Barrett his own episode in

1:09:02

season one. Yep. So last

1:09:04

season, we were like, we have ten ten episodes.

1:09:06

Let's give everybody one episode. But

1:09:09

then you're, like, almost every

1:09:11

side character, we've discussed giving

1:09:14

them we've discussed an episode just

1:09:16

for them. you know. And

1:09:20

sometimes it happens and a lot a lot of times

1:09:22

he gets thrown out. And this season, we're already

1:09:24

kind of talking what characters

1:09:26

are gonna get

1:09:28

episode. Season ten at White Steve

1:09:31

episode. Right.

1:09:31

Exactly. I mean, we've talked about that. I mean, at

1:09:33

one point, like, you

1:09:35

know,

1:09:35

I don't think that we'll do this. I don't have to just

1:09:37

give nothing away. But at one point, it was gonna

1:09:39

be Bill Burr and his his

1:09:42

son, white Steve. Oh, There

1:09:44

it is. Yeah. And, you know,

1:09:47

so, like, we we really just like and

1:09:49

and I've never been in a room before, and I've never

1:09:51

been a part of a room. but people that

1:09:54

have been that are in the room have told me

1:09:56

that

1:09:57

something about the sort of blue sky

1:09:59

stuff like just throwing things

1:10:02

out is really fun.

1:10:05

And I I think

1:10:07

there's a lack of judgment if something

1:10:09

bombs. you know, like,

1:10:11

I I encourage everyone and I'll make fun

1:10:14

of them for an idea. You know, I will.

1:10:16

I was like,

1:10:18

Like, what? Like, like,

1:10:20

I think

1:10:20

you should think more before

1:10:22

you say that. And then, like, depending on who

1:10:24

it is, you know, and One

1:10:26

day, Dallas's go to sent me some texts

1:10:29

the night before. The first thing that I did the next

1:10:31

day was, like, let me read you Dallas's

1:10:33

pitches. It was kinda odd. You know?

1:10:36

And then what's hilarious is three days later,

1:10:38

I land back on his

1:10:41

pitch, like, rejected at

1:10:43

the first day. Yep. And then three or four

1:10:45

days later, I'm like, man, I hate to say this,

1:10:47

but, like, what if we do what Dallas said?

1:10:49

You know? And then all of a sudden, he's redeemed,

1:10:52

you know? it's a process.

1:10:54

Yeah. So there's no hard feelings and, like, you

1:10:56

know, half of them are from a comedy

1:10:58

group that we've we've we've

1:11:01

got a lot of calluses making

1:11:04

fun of each other for a long time. So,

1:11:07

you know, it's it's a good process just

1:11:09

messing around with each other. Not

1:11:11

to get two in the weeds with but I I wonder if you

1:11:13

come in saying, you know, you'd like a a solo showcase

1:11:15

for Bear or solo showcase for Will jack,

1:11:17

you'd like to maybe consider getting to California

1:11:19

this season for example? Or is

1:11:21

there

1:11:21

an example you can pull out of season two of an

1:11:23

episode that just didn't exist and

1:11:25

just sort of became a repository

1:11:28

for things that slid off of other episodes

1:11:30

or that other episodes turned into?

1:11:33

You mean

1:11:33

one that ended up One that ended

1:11:36

up filmed. But when you, you know, in the first week

1:11:38

or two, did they say? There's one that's interesting, and

1:11:40

it's Willie Jack's, the the jail.

1:11:43

we broke that, like I

1:11:46

think we broke that, like, a week and a half

1:11:48

before we shot it. Mhmm. And

1:11:51

and Miggasie got sent away for, like,

1:11:53

day or two to go write that. And,

1:11:56

you know, that originally was a yard sale

1:11:58

episode. It's I remember

1:11:59

in the in the writers here, it was yard

1:12:02

sale. So it was like, this community episode. It

1:12:04

was on the street and stuff. And

1:12:06

then that changed to

1:12:08

a wild onion dinner, which

1:12:10

is kind of cultural thing that we have. And, like,

1:12:12

they usually happen at, like, an old church or

1:12:14

some sort like, community house or something,

1:12:17

you know. And and

1:12:19

so then that was gonna be that And

1:12:21

there was a mythological sort of

1:12:24

being that was a part of that, but but I won't

1:12:26

say anything about that because it might come later.

1:12:28

But And then, you know,

1:12:30

I have these moments where I'm like,

1:12:33

the that

1:12:34

doesn't feel like they're something. And

1:12:36

always I can always tell him just bugging me. It's

1:12:38

like it's like, I know Deepgram. That's

1:12:40

not what it should be, and it's

1:12:42

not finished. And so I

1:12:44

usually come to the writers. And in this case,

1:12:46

it was TASPA magazine Bobby

1:12:48

who were production writers on the show. And I was like, man,

1:12:50

this just isn't it. Like, like,

1:12:53

what is it? You know, like, what is it?

1:12:55

Actually, it might have been just megazy

1:12:57

and I because at one point, Bobby got COVID

1:12:59

and then or was gone, and then I think

1:13:01

TOSPER was editing her episode. And

1:13:03

I was, like, it just doesn't feel right.

1:13:05

Like, there's it's not there. And then it's, like,

1:13:07

takeaway, the gimmicks. So you take away

1:13:10

the mythological being, you take away

1:13:13

the wild onion dinner. What is it? Like,

1:13:15

what are we trying to say? And it's

1:13:17

like, how else could we say it? And then that's where

1:13:19

that came out of, you know. And so,

1:13:21

like, there's bits and pieces of things that are from

1:13:23

those episodes. But, like, in the end, it was,

1:13:25

like, it's almost like, you know,

1:13:28

a good blue song or folk

1:13:30

song. It's like, boil it down to, like,

1:13:33

to the essence of what it's supposed to be

1:13:35

and does it survive? If not,

1:13:37

what are you trying to say? You know, like rebuild

1:13:39

it into something else? And I think that that is a

1:13:41

key thing that we do in the room. it's

1:13:43

such a good lesson for all writers of any

1:13:45

kind, honestly. Like, what what actually are you trying

1:13:47

to say here? And you've been certainly, you've been so

1:13:49

generous with your time. I just have one other one last

1:13:51

question, which is just sort of

1:13:54

a broad one in the sense that I think when we spoke

1:13:56

last year, whether

1:13:58

it was directly an answer or a question or if it just sort

1:14:00

of came up

1:14:01

I was really struck by this idea that when you

1:14:03

were shooting season one, you know, and the the signs

1:14:05

go up and the production vans show up and

1:14:08

I would imagine in some of the communities in

1:14:10

streets that you're filming people are like, what is this?

1:14:12

Like, I don't know I don't know what this is and and,

1:14:14

you know, the cast isn't getting recognized whether they're

1:14:16

in Oklahoma or they're in Los Angeles. Mhmm.

1:14:19

Season two, that must have changed considerably. Yeah.

1:14:22

I'm wondering how the energy of the

1:14:24

ensemble has has has changed heading

1:14:26

into season three and not just like

1:14:28

the actors are famous now, but literally you you you

1:14:30

make the show in a place where other shows that

1:14:32

we talk about in the podcast aren't film? Do you work with

1:14:34

people so closely who have been with you through different

1:14:37

parts of your career and different projects? What's

1:14:40

the vibe?

1:14:41

to get to do this again. It's great, man.

1:14:43

I mean, it's like

1:14:44

the community loves it, especially

1:14:47

after first season came out. Like, anyone that

1:14:49

was mad about us being around after fees

1:14:51

in, like, anything goes now.

1:14:53

Right? And, like and also the

1:14:55

Muskogee Nation who's the tribe in town,

1:14:58

the in my tribe that they're

1:15:00

so proud of it. I mean, like, they were gonna pray

1:15:02

the other day, like the chief and a couple of other people,

1:15:04

and they all had reservation dog shirts on.

1:15:07

totally do my god hurts too. I don't even know

1:15:09

where they got them, but my hair is even better.

1:15:11

Yeah. And my hat was selling

1:15:13

them for a while, but I don't know. shoot,

1:15:16

like, making them. But and,

1:15:18

you know, like, we get back to the community. We try

1:15:20

not to just be these people that come

1:15:22

in and film something that'll leave. Like, even

1:15:25

afterwards, we'll have, like, community

1:15:27

barbecues on the streets that we filmed.

1:15:30

The other day, my fiance, Brett Henssel, she's

1:15:32

a dog, you know, fanatic

1:15:35

and rescuer. She on

1:15:37

set while we were shooting her and there are a lot

1:15:39

of the crew and myself and different folks

1:15:41

would and my brother, different everybody.

1:15:44

there's a whole crew of people that would like,

1:15:46

while we're shooting the show, it's

1:15:48

like text messages going out, like, there's

1:15:50

a dog on this corner of blah blah blah

1:15:52

blah blah. It's got rescue. It needs help.

1:15:55

This one has the mains. Let's talk to the owner.

1:15:57

And literally, like, I think they saved, like, fourteen

1:15:59

animals. like,

1:16:01

on the during our shoot. And so

1:16:03

as a thank you to the community,

1:16:07

we had a mobile

1:16:09

clinic with the Tulsa SPCA.

1:16:11

We had a mobile clinic come to the neighborhood and,

1:16:13

like, stay and neuter and vaccinate, like,

1:16:16

dogs for free that day. And so the neighbor

1:16:18

had all the the neighborhood in which we shoot and community

1:16:20

which we shoot could come and get it done. And, like,

1:16:23

hundreds of people showed over dogs and

1:16:25

stuff. So, like, You know, it's

1:16:27

People love the show. I mean, we had the premiere in

1:16:29

Oklahoma and at the Muskogee

1:16:32

Nation's Casino. Like, they gave me the option

1:16:34

to premiere in LA or here, and I did it

1:16:36

here. And and we had

1:16:38

the Premier in Tulsa. And, like, you

1:16:41

know, they it was amazing.

1:16:43

Everyone came and, like, dressed in, like,

1:16:46

the best, like, sort of, native,

1:16:49

modern, tribal gear and, like, which

1:16:51

is like ribbon skirts, ribbon shirts, and

1:16:53

everyone looked nice. I had

1:16:55

COVID, so I didn't get to go. Oh, no.

1:16:57

But it was wonderful. It was like packed

1:17:00

house. Everybody loved that, you know,

1:17:04

it was so so welcoming. And people just

1:17:06

like I mean, people have like, especially in

1:17:08

this community and native people, like, have

1:17:10

taken such ownership over the show.

1:17:12

It's not it just doesn't feel like mine.

1:17:15

It comes out like all of

1:17:17

my friends and people that I know

1:17:19

in in my community and all over

1:17:21

native Indian country are

1:17:23

just talking about it. And it's almost like

1:17:25

me in a room where they're talking like and I'm talking

1:17:27

about a line. But it's almost like being in a

1:17:30

room where, like, people are talking about you and

1:17:32

and they're not addressing you. because

1:17:34

I just get to see these conversations happening

1:17:36

about this show, and it's great. But, like,

1:17:39

you know, it's not mine anymore. It's

1:17:41

theirs and, like, It's super exciting

1:17:43

and just really fulfilling to make for sure.

1:17:45

It's great. Well, it's

1:17:46

significant, I think, and it's not common that

1:17:48

you're there. You you live and work in the same

1:17:50

place. Right? I mean, most show runners, for

1:17:52

whatever reason, you know, are living in LA or New

1:17:54

York, and they fly to where they're shooting, and they spend

1:17:56

six months at a place, and then they're gone. But you're there,

1:17:58

and your writer's room is there. Your

1:18:00

family's there. Exactly.

1:18:01

But

1:18:02

I'm so pleased I got a chance to talk to you. I just thank

1:18:04

you again for the season of TV. I just feel like

1:18:06

it's important not just for the show, which you make, which

1:18:08

is just delightful entertaining, but I just find it

1:18:10

really inspiring for the medium that, like, TV

1:18:13

can do this, man. It's awesome. Yeah, man. It's exciting.

1:18:15

I'm like, you know, I'm glad I

1:18:17

didn't know any better. I'll say that.

1:18:19

If there's something to be said about that. Right? Right. There

1:18:21

is. I'm really glad, you know. And

1:18:24

it's been a I've sort of approach

1:18:26

things like that, just sort of dove into them

1:18:28

and did them. And so, you know,

1:18:30

in this case, it really worked. And, yeah, it's

1:18:32

great. And, you know, thank you guys for all the

1:18:34

support. It's been really awesome. But

1:18:36

we love it. All we ask is season

1:18:38

three, and then hopefully we get to do this again at the end

1:18:40

of it. Yeah. Let's do it, man. Sounds good. Awesome.

1:18:43

Thanks, Art. Thank you.