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Buy a pair right now at lululemon.com. Hello

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and welcome to The Watch. My name

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is Chris Ryan. I am an editor

1:58

at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio. We're

2:01

every day is leap day. It's in

2:03

a green world! That's

2:05

nice. Do you think this is our first leap day

2:07

show? I mean you would think after 11 years we've

2:09

probably done a leap day before. How often does leap

2:11

day happen? It's been 12 years, but what? How often

2:14

does leap day happen? How often does

2:16

it happen? Yeah. It happens every year,

2:18

right? No. Wait,

2:20

are you actually asking this? I could not care. I really

2:22

never pay attention to this. What is late leap day? It's

2:26

every 4 years. This is February 29th. That's

2:28

why I was confused about why rent wasn't

2:30

due. That's right. This is fascinating.

2:32

So you've made it... Wait,

2:35

let me do the quick math. You've made it 11 leap

2:37

days in

2:40

your life. Yes. Without knowing

2:42

what it was. I have a vague idea about

2:44

it, but I just wasn't really fixated on it.

2:47

Where was your baseball team playing that game when

2:49

they taught that? We were in Florida doing a

2:51

little spring training. Just pictures and

2:53

catchers though. Do you

2:55

remember the episode? There's a great episode of Parks and

2:58

Recreation where they find out that Jerry's birthday is February

3:00

29th. So it's actually they throw him a

3:02

sweet 16 party. Oh,

3:04

that's funny. That's funny. Was there also a 30

3:06

Rock Leap Day episode? Probably.

3:09

Okay. I'm sure Kai can

3:11

get into that for me. Great to see

3:14

you. Yeah. Yeah, of course

3:16

it is. Good. I'm

3:18

glad. I'm glad you're happy to see me. I felt

3:20

a little ashamed. Was you happy to see me or

3:23

you're fine? I feel

3:25

I was worried because I wanted to begin

3:27

with this. I was

3:30

a little abashed because I made

3:32

a verbal gaff. I

3:35

misspoke. Generally,

3:39

American people are very forgiving when

3:41

public figures make gaffs or misspeaks.

3:43

Especially aged white men. So

3:47

last week we were having a, I thought, a

3:49

really enjoyable digression about

3:52

charity concerts in the 80s. Luckily

3:55

for our listeners, I think we did this around minute 51.

3:58

So I know we were retaining a whole lot of money. 100%

4:00

listenership according to the data that I'm shown and We

4:05

were talking about I was talking about how

4:07

I attended Lollapalooza 93 in the rec the

4:09

ruins of a stadium in Philadelphia They had

4:11

recently demolished. It was the stadium where the

4:13

live aid concert had happened a few years

4:15

before. Yes, that concert was

4:17

JFK Stadium Yes, I

4:20

called it RFK Stadium. Well, I mean

4:22

you're a huge Kennedy guy And

4:24

I think you just betrayed your Bobby

4:27

leanings Well, I

4:30

appreciate that, you know, I think that he

4:32

you love attorney general. We don't know attorneys

4:34

general. Yeah, I we

4:37

don't know what his his vision for the country would

4:39

have been sadly, but I Do

4:42

think that you play that out does help keep

4:45

the spotlight on me because as to Philadelphia and

4:47

sitting here each with equal access To microphones you

4:49

really let me hang myself on that I get

4:51

I get an interesting question about like who bears

4:53

responsibility in the person who centered or the person

4:55

who was paying attention sort of like 60% do

4:58

I Got

5:00

60% during that you know, you

5:02

know, I locked in I am on you, you know, Andy,

5:04

it's great to see you We

5:06

okay. Yeah, we're fine. No, I felt

5:09

I I was worried how this was gonna play out because

5:12

It's just been haunting me since Monday. I know you

5:14

the first thing you text Yes

5:18

You know, you can always call Kaya and just be like

5:20

I need to punch this in and just be like absolutely

5:22

Well, what JFK Stadium? No,

5:25

we do not no No, we give it

5:27

to the people raw and uncut and then

5:29

we just take the comments as they are.

5:31

Yeah Yeah, no, we have we ever have

5:33

we ever gone back and edited anything? Uh,

5:36

yes. Yeah, I'm for sure Yeah,

5:39

oh, well, they're all those podcasts around like True

5:41

Detective season one is great. I Loved

5:45

it. That's right more

5:47

stories about angry men, please Look,

5:51

that was me. They've never steered us

5:53

wrong. Yeah, Andy today on the pod I wanted to talk to

5:55

you about some news at the top and then we're gonna talk

5:57

a little bit about the first two episodes of Shogun And

6:00

we'll do a little preview of the regime,

6:02

which is coming on Sunday from

6:04

Will Tracy, who people may know

6:07

as a writer on Succession, and starts Kate Winslet.

6:10

He wrote the menu too, right? He did write the

6:12

menu. He did. Did you like the menu? I

6:14

don't know why my voice went so high when I asked you that.

6:16

You were worried about what I was going to say, because I think

6:18

you're looking at me like I'm unpredictable. No,

6:21

I just, I mean, you're one

6:23

of our greatest critics. I never know. You

6:27

are. I enjoyed the menu.

6:29

Yeah, I watched it on a plane, where I was just

6:32

very happy to be watching. So I didn't feel like I

6:34

had my full critic suit on that day.

6:36

Really? Because you seem to get a lot out of

6:38

plane viewing that you would be like. I

6:40

generally love everything. Because I see it on planes,

6:42

and I weep. So just cry,

6:45

and I get Taylor Joy eating

6:47

scallops. No, she feels like she loves

6:49

it. So that's coming on Sunday

6:51

on HBO. We'll talk a little bit about that later in the

6:53

pod. For the news side of

6:55

things, Andy, couple ones.

6:57

Number one, Sally Rooney's got

7:00

a novella coming out in the fall. You say what?

7:02

You're breaking news to me. What? I'm breaking news to

7:04

you. Kai was like, I know, when I came in.

7:07

And I was like, did you hear her? And she

7:09

was like, about Sally Rooney? Intermezzo

7:11

is the name. By the

7:13

way, for our listeners, it'll be seamless

7:15

for them. But that was apparently a

7:17

classic watch step down while we googled

7:19

something. Chris was googling the Sally Rooney

7:21

information. I was googling the ninth

7:24

episode of the sixth season of 30 Rock. It was called

7:26

Leap Day. OK. So

7:28

I'm glad that we're all ready to go now. Yeah.

7:31

Three hours passed in real life. We went and got

7:33

a sandwich. No,

7:37

I just love to see your face when I

7:39

tell you about Sally Rooney news. This is exciting.

7:41

Yeah. So Sally Rooney's got a novella kind of

7:43

coming. It's called Intermezzo. Yeah. Tells the

7:45

tale of two brothers, Peter and Ivan

7:47

Kubek, and how they cope with the

7:50

death of their father. Peter is

7:52

a successful Dublin lawyer in his 30s

7:54

who is medicating himself to sleep and

7:56

struggling to manage relationships with two very

7:58

different women. His

8:01

enduring love, first love Sylvia and Naomi, a

8:03

college student for whom life is

8:05

one long joke. Then Ivan has

8:07

begun seeing an older woman with a turbulent

8:09

past. This is great. So

8:12

Kaya is locked in on this. Which

8:14

one of us is going to read this first? Kaya.

8:16

A hundred percent. Has this been snapped

8:18

up for television yet? That's why I

8:20

brought it up. Because we've just been

8:22

so locked in

8:24

on the Rooneyverse as an expanding television

8:26

footprint. One thing I think, look,

8:30

in a previous series where normal people

8:32

obviously introducing the world at large to

8:34

Paul Mescal and then. Daisy Edgar

8:36

Jones. Daisy Edgar Jones and then conversations with

8:38

friends child loved. Which introduced people to

8:40

Joe Owen whom no one had ever heard about before.

8:43

Certainly in the larger culture or tabloid world.

8:45

Yes. I think this podcast gets a lot

8:47

of credit for

8:49

really being on the front lines of

8:52

obscure often violent noirs that only we

8:54

like. I know. I don't think we

8:56

get recognized for being the leading champions

8:58

of literature written by women in their

9:01

early 30s. Because

9:03

all I want to talk about in this podcast is Emma

9:05

Cline's The Guest. All I want to talk about. You read

9:07

that, right? She's not even

9:09

coming to the mic. She

9:11

just knows this is a dangerous place. Are you

9:13

enjoying? I couldn't put it down. My wife

9:16

is great, too. She loves it. Chris,

9:18

you? I have not because I'm too busy.

9:20

You're in what's reading Rachel Kushner's The Mars

9:22

Room, dawg? Well, she's not she doesn't fit

9:24

our mandate, which is let's listen to men

9:26

in their 40s talk about novels written by

9:28

women in their 30s. But why isn't she

9:30

fit the mandate? Because she's

9:33

a senior to that age. OK, but

9:35

she did write a book about being a

9:37

princess. She rules. I still cuss rules.

9:39

Kushner. What? We have

9:41

Kushner. Yeah. You said Rachel Cuss. Oh, Rachel

9:44

Cuss rules, too. Yeah. All the Rachels. You're

9:46

I'm smoking that Cush. I don't know. You

9:48

always talk about Cusks. I know. I know.

9:50

There are two genders. OK.

9:53

Kushner and Cuss. Kyatt, you

9:55

have a you have your eye on the metrics

9:58

always and you don't share them with me, which I appreciate. What

10:00

do you think, like big picture, what would be

10:03

the swing if we went from covering big

10:06

ticket IP and television shows to only talking

10:08

about... Can't you tell that that's everything? That's

10:10

everything. I have nothing for you. Like,

10:13

what do you... Like, we would lose some a little

10:15

bit, but like we would be okay, right? I

10:18

think that we would have a floor that would

10:20

stay. I think you could

10:22

go into like the Patreon market with

10:24

that kind of content, because like the real

10:26

heads would want it. So you think

10:28

we should, in addition to the

10:30

watch, launch a Patreon-fueled

10:33

podcast where we just talk about

10:35

books written by women authors in

10:37

the 21st century. Two guys in

10:39

their 40s? What

10:41

is the title for this? This

10:44

is legitimately the worst business idea I've ever heard.

10:46

I think there are two genders. Is a good

10:49

idea. There are two genders. I'm

10:51

really excited about the inevitable FX

10:54

adaptation of Interbedzo coming in 20s.

10:56

But I can't wait. A

10:58

couple of other things that we're sort of kicking around on

11:01

this sort of deadline Hollywood reporter verse.

11:04

Guy Ritchie and Ronan

11:06

Bennett, who I mentioned last week

11:08

in association with Shogun because he was, I

11:11

think the writer originally attached to Revive, the

11:14

James Clavall novel and the miniseries out for

11:16

FX. He is a person

11:18

of interest for me. He's been on the watch before.

11:20

We talked about his show Top Boy, which is one

11:22

of my favorite shows of the last few years. Guy

11:26

Ritchie and Ronan Bennett, interesting pairing, right?

11:28

You're like, damn, what are these guys cooking up?

11:30

Tell me. A Ray Donovan spinoff. It's

11:33

so wild. But like a movie. It's

11:35

called the Donovan's. It's a series set in London.

11:37

It's a series? Oh, I thought they were doing

11:40

a movie. I'm pretty sure it's a series. Is

11:42

this an example of you can't get anything made

11:45

unless it's been made before? Yes.

11:49

I mean, particularly this is for... These

11:52

guys seem like pretty, pretty certified dudes.

11:55

I guess like, you know, money is money, but like I

11:57

would feel like they could probably get a London

11:59

crime. thriller movie or TV series off the ground

12:02

guy Richie makes a movie every nine months

12:04

seemingly. So I guess

12:06

this this Paramount idea of like, you're right, it's

12:08

a series, by the way, I was fitting off

12:10

billions as trillions and doing all these like kind

12:13

of maybe a nurse Jackie revival

12:15

or whatever. And now this Ray Donovan story, I

12:17

mean, I think there's a clear method to the

12:19

madness, which is so basically

12:21

Showtime doesn't really exist anymore. Functionally, it doesn't exist in

12:23

where it is just a part of Paramount Plus. And

12:27

there are two mandates at play. One

12:29

is let's just iterate. Let's let's make

12:31

multiple spinoffs of successful brands, bring back

12:33

things that have already existed. But

12:36

let's also take some of the DNA from

12:38

the Sheridan verse, which is get big,

12:41

big ticket packages together

12:43

get big stars, make things as shiny as

12:46

possible to stand out and pop. I

12:48

don't know what the B side of that story is,

12:50

I would imagine it means we'll make less other stuff

12:52

around the margins because the budgets that they have are

12:54

the budgets. But to me, this story is not just

12:57

a continuation of the trillions spinoff

12:59

story, but also in concert with the other

13:01

announcement this week that was exciting, which is

13:03

that George Clooney's long

13:06

gestating American version of one

13:08

of our favorite shows, the French series, Lupe D'Oro,

13:11

is I just did that for you. You

13:13

always put a little Dijon on it. Yeah, you

13:15

got to slather it. It's got to slather the

13:17

baguette is moving

13:19

towards production and with a

13:22

likely star in Michael

13:24

Fassbender, which is incredibly exciting. It got

13:26

me to uncork the I want you to put the

13:28

word out that we're back up, mean

13:30

it in the text that I sent you. But

13:33

again, it feels strange

13:36

that this is for what

13:38

used to be Showtime, but will now be

13:40

for Paramount Plus. I mean, it's Clooney, it's

13:42

an international hit show and piece of IP.

13:44

It's Fassbender, but this seems

13:46

to be their strategy. I take almost

13:49

all Paramount news with a grain of

13:51

salt just because of the precarity of

13:53

their position. Well, yeah. And also like

13:55

the rumors of their being sold, being

13:58

emerged, whatever. I

14:00

feel like when the Showtime Paramount like

14:03

union first happened, there was just so much talk about

14:05

all the stuff that they were going to do this.

14:07

This adaptation of the bureau has been kicked

14:10

around for a while or discussed. And then

14:12

there was like, you know, there

14:15

was ideas that like the creator of the bureau

14:17

was going to do another show that might hit

14:19

American stores. So I think I'm I think that

14:21

was unrelated to this, that he was shopping a

14:23

show. Yeah. I think I'm just when it comes

14:26

to Paramount stuff, the only thing

14:28

that seems to actually go from, like, here's a

14:30

bunch of stuff we've announced now it's on TV

14:32

is the Taylor stuff, is Taylor Sheridan stuff. Yeah.

14:34

Although, I mean, I think these things will happen.

14:37

I think this the Donovan's and the department

14:39

will happen. And I think that you

14:41

could look at this in a cynical way and saying

14:44

they're putting the shiniest stuff in the shop

14:46

window. Yeah, sure. To make it make it

14:48

attractive. I mean, I you

14:50

could make the case. I don't know if

14:52

this is the case. If this is a winning argument to

14:54

make in like boardroom merger discussions, if they are even happening,

14:56

but to be like, boy, it would be a

14:58

shame to have this incredible Michael Fassbender spy show on

15:01

a surface that not many people have. Right. As

15:03

opposed to we are making this in order to

15:05

get more people to subscribe. It's like they're they're

15:07

Olympics. They're Olympics like

15:09

in that. Like we've bought the rights

15:11

to the Olympics. Oh, I think Michael

15:13

Fassbender has been changing his blood. I

15:17

would have asked him. He's definitely changed

15:19

his blood. It's hard to do those like

15:21

long, long haul like car races that he

15:23

does. Is he is

15:26

he the upscale Frankie Munoz? Like, is

15:28

that his thing? I

15:31

mean, the reason I side is just because sometimes you you

15:33

get a little close to the bullseye. Oh,

15:36

really? Well, he's a guy who's like pretty much

15:38

like to get away from. Yeah.

15:40

And I like when the killer came out, I

15:42

was like diving deep into my Fassbender research. And

15:45

like really, the only time he had talked over

15:47

the last couple of years was

15:49

for a like long like

15:52

car manufacturer documentary about him doing

15:54

Lamont, I think. How extensive are

15:57

your Fassbinder's? They're all color coded.

16:00

I think I have a special show. I

16:03

mean, I'm obviously like, I wait with

16:05

Beta Press for the department. I'm interested

16:07

enough in the Donovan's just because Ronan

16:09

Bennett's a really cool writer and I'd

16:12

be fascinated to see a London

16:14

crime thriller. The Ray Donovan part about it doesn't

16:16

mean anything to me. But I think that's what's

16:18

weird about this. I don't think it means anything

16:20

to anyone other than them saying, hey, come look

16:22

in our cupboards. And if there's anything that interests

16:24

you, you take it. If

16:27

this is successful, it's hard to be mad

16:29

at the strategy of saying, this guy

16:31

can write a hell of a London crime thriller. We

16:33

want to be in business with him doing what he

16:35

does best, but he has to wear this branded jacket

16:37

while he does it. Yeah. Okay. Let's

16:40

talk a little bit about one other story that

16:42

came out this week, which was that HBO, Warner

16:44

Brothers Discovery, I guess Warner Brothers Discovery is the

16:46

right way to put it, are

16:48

announced that they were down to

16:50

a three writer, I don't know,

16:52

bake off. Well, they didn't announce. This was

16:54

reported. Reported, sorry. So it's been reported that

16:57

HBO is down to, or Max is down

16:59

to its three finalists for a revival of

17:01

the Harry Potter universe.

17:04

TV show. It's a TV show

17:06

that Zazlav had met with JK

17:08

Rowling, with some folks and that

17:11

they were bringing back Harry Potter and they have

17:13

narrowed this down to three writers to take the

17:15

job on. Right. So the understanding, I don't know

17:18

if this has ever been officially announced, but I

17:20

think it's sort of, it's been intuitive or assumed

17:22

like they're going to do the books

17:24

again. They're going to do them in more depth

17:27

as a 10 year project basically.

17:29

Yeah. And so they were

17:32

looking and this was out in the

17:34

town. I mean, this was

17:36

announced at the end of last year and agents were

17:38

like asking all their clients that they liked Harry Potter

17:40

books to throw them into the mix for consideration. Your

17:44

gal, Joanne Rowling is in charge of this. Yeah. So

17:47

she's deciding who she wants to be shepherding

17:49

the project and whose vision makes the most

17:51

sense. Your gal. Was she, we

17:54

could cover her on our podcast about women writers. That's

17:56

true. Our

17:59

most controversial episode. episode. We

18:02

would do it only for clicks, guy, I promise. Just

18:08

like paddling as fast as I can.

18:10

But we're not editing this, I promise.

18:12

This reminds me of being a lifeguard when I was in

18:15

my teen years and just kind of like twirling the whistle.

18:17

I see you, I see that you're struggling while you're swimming.

18:19

But I'm not sure if you're... Are you waving or drowning?

18:21

Am I in a blow? I don't know. Your

18:24

second reference to this podcast, all the sports you did.

18:27

That was a job. That was a summer job. It

18:29

wasn't a volunteer situation. No, I didn't volunteer. Picturing

18:32

you on a slightly smaller chair. You're

18:35

like, can I get them? Did

18:37

your lifeguard to work day? Yeah.

18:40

OK, so the reason this

18:42

kind of rubbed me... Like this show could be good.

18:44

We have no idea. It's a very high profile project

18:46

for Warner Brothers Discovery. It is what it is. I

18:48

actually do have a question about the artistic merits of

18:50

this, but go ahead. What really bummed me out about

18:52

it, one was, and

18:54

I'm sure no one was happy that this was leaked, that

18:57

they're the three names of writers. I'm

18:59

not familiar with, I don't know personally,

19:01

Francesca Gardner, Tom Moran and Kathleen Jordan

19:03

were named by deadline as the finalists.

19:05

Yeah. What

19:07

really rubbed... That's not the first time that's happened, right?

19:09

There's often these big IP things that's down to a

19:11

couple of people. It's a fake off. What really rubs

19:13

me the wrong way, and I've been through one of

19:15

these, didn't come out the other side,

19:18

is this is an... Well, you know what?

19:20

You didn't need Lord of the Rings. No. No. It's...

19:25

I mean, I think it's fine. What if Frodo

19:27

was a detective? First

19:31

of all, what if Frodo was Froda? And

19:34

what if it was set in... Double. This

19:38

is all free work. This is what

19:41

bums me out. It's

19:43

an enormous amount of life disrupting

19:45

free work to have a

19:48

chance to be in the room, to be considered

19:50

for something that could potentially change your professional life.

19:52

It doesn't mean it's not worth doing. It's just

19:54

that it's one of the things that I felt

19:56

like we went on strike for was to shorten

19:59

this. If this process began

20:01

conservatively at the end of 2023, and

20:03

I believe the deadline article says

20:07

that they're going to be announcing

20:10

this at some point in the next

20:12

couple of months, the decision might

20:14

come in June. That's half

20:16

of a year of stress-inducing,

20:19

time-consuming free work. Now, when you say the

20:21

work, can you just give our listeners a little

20:23

bit of an idea about generally what happens when

20:25

you're, quote, unquote, up for a job like that?

20:27

Well, you have to make presentation. Basically, you graduate

20:30

levels of Zooms up to in-persons of

20:32

answering questions and presenting to the gatekeepers

20:34

of something. I would imagine ultimately it

20:37

will involve being with J.K. Rowling and

20:39

making the pitch directly to her as

20:41

well as the heavy decision-makers. In a

20:43

case like this, I don't

20:46

think that David Zasloff traditionally sits in on creative

20:48

meetings, but is he very attuned

20:51

to this? Sure. For sure. It's

20:53

an enormous, enormous thing. It's not easy to

20:55

be preparing presentations, to be constantly

20:57

refreshing your relationship with the material

20:59

and preparing for Zooms and all

21:02

this stuff. Again, always a

21:04

caveat when we talk about these things. It is

21:06

not coal mining, but coal mining

21:08

is not free labor. It

21:11

kind of bums me out, particularly when it's- Is it

21:13

a pilgrimage? Because it's kind of a borderline. It

21:15

just bums me out when it's made

21:18

public. It seems like these three capable

21:20

people are participating in a kind of

21:22

lurid reality show to win

21:24

the golden ticket to get a job that

21:26

they might not even get to keep. What's

21:30

the stop? Sure. Because every time, like

21:32

half the time these things, it's like, this person has been replaced

21:34

as a sort of- Yeah, when Craig Maven steps in at the

21:37

11th hour and brings the series over the

21:39

finish line. I'm just speculating

21:41

with a little bit of saltiness because just from

21:43

the writer's go perspective, that part bums me out.

21:45

Yeah, right. Do you think that that is the

21:47

way in which this is being handled or the

21:49

way in which writers have to work in the

21:51

sort of, say, the last couple of years, how

21:54

is that different from the way it was maybe before COVID

21:56

or maybe in like 2018 or something like that where

21:59

it was like- Like was it more of a like

22:01

here's my pitch, take it

22:03

or leave it kind of thing? Like I know

22:06

less of like a dry dress rehearsal. I think

22:08

there's always been free work involved. There's

22:11

always been the soft pitching leading

22:14

to the major pitching to get the

22:16

job. I mean, you don't hire in

22:19

any occupation. It's not

22:21

like you get paid to do the job interview.

22:23

I mean, I understand the way that looks in

22:25

terms of the

22:27

larger marketplace, but there are

22:29

so many more stutter steps now than there used to

22:32

be. Part of this is because the decisions have a

22:34

lot more money riding on them. This is Harry Potter,

22:36

which is arguably the biggest and

22:38

most profitable franchise in the world.

22:41

They can't rush into that nor should they, nor would

22:44

the fans want them to. But as these things have

22:46

gotten bigger and bigger, the stutter steps to be like,

22:48

okay, well, could you just give

22:50

us some ideas? Could you put those in writing? Could

22:52

you do a PowerPoint? Could you do a brief outline

22:54

of what you would do with the first season? Give

22:56

me a mood board. These are traditionally paid steps.

22:59

And it's part and parcel with

23:02

what is going on in the industry at large, which

23:04

is it used to be you get

23:06

paid to write a pilot and they make a decision. Now you

23:08

get paid to write a pilot and their decision might be, could

23:10

you write a second episode? Could you write

23:13

two more episodes? Could you write four episodes

23:15

and a series Bible? Because they want to

23:17

maximize the amount of relatively cheap labor they

23:19

can get before things go into production and

23:21

a writer's room or prep and all the

23:24

other things come into play. So it's extending

23:26

the runway to a point that is uncomfortable,

23:28

if not unpleasant for a lot of people, but it also,

23:30

but the real issue for me is just the like, I'm

23:35

sure these people are fine and thrilled for the opportunity and they

23:37

don't need me caping up for it. But

23:39

it bummed me out when it

23:41

went public because it's hard out

23:43

here. Do you think

23:45

that there is a huge

23:48

market? I mean, obviously there's huge market for Harry Potter

23:50

stuff. In fact, I think like it's probably

23:53

unremarked upon how reliably like

23:55

popular this stuff is as

23:58

say adapting each of these. books over

24:02

the course of 10 episode, hour long episodes of

24:04

television. Do you think that the material, because I've

24:06

never read it, and we're seeing the movies honestly,

24:08

lends itself to that? Yes. Like,

24:11

could you just be like, I'm going to shoot each

24:13

page? Like, that's what I'm doing. I mean, if Mallory

24:15

was here, I think she could give you a more

24:17

full-throated answer of excitement. I mean, these

24:19

are really, really rich and

24:21

increased. They're very long books, especially later in the

24:24

series. People adore them, and

24:26

successive generations are discovering them and loving

24:28

them every day. And

24:31

like, this is our put on my Thomas Friedman

24:33

columnist hat, but like, the stores are

24:35

packed everywhere they are in the country and around

24:37

the world. People buying the chocolate frogs and the

24:40

hats and the... All of it. You

24:42

could monetize almost every single aspect of it, and they

24:44

kind of have. So the

24:47

idea of a incredibly rigorous text

24:49

to screen adaptation is, I think,

24:52

a probably safe bet to

24:54

be a success. Is

24:58

that like, light my fire in terms of like... And I'm

25:00

not saying... To be clear, no

25:02

one asked me. I was not involved in

25:04

this on any level. I was

25:06

just asking out of curiosity, if I was like,

25:08

there's a Harry Potter series in 2026, are

25:11

you like... Aside from like, obviously,

25:13

like probably family members being like, can't wait to

25:15

check this out, would you be like, great,

25:18

like, here we go. Maybe. Yeah.

25:21

I mean, I think it depends. I think generally, people who listen to this

25:23

podcast know, and I feel like you and I are the same about this,

25:25

but like, the more... If something

25:27

is trumpeting, it's absolute rock-rich

25:29

faithfulness. Like his fealty to it.

25:31

Yeah, right. That... I

25:33

think the pleasures that can be derived from that are probably

25:35

not going to be for me because I didn't read all

25:37

the books. I read them to my older daughter until she

25:39

could read them for herself and then she dusted me. And

25:43

I think maybe there's some other creative possibilities

25:45

within this world, but J.K. Rowling

25:48

controls all of it and is not going to let anyone

25:50

else come play with her toys, and that's her right, and

25:52

it's obviously very profitable for her. So that's what we get.

25:55

But I will say, as one extra missive

25:57

from Daddington Island... I

26:00

thought that this is completely uninteresting

26:03

to you, I promise. But I thought

26:05

that Netflix's live adaptation of Avatar, The

26:07

Last Airbender, which debuted last week, was

26:10

going to be a huge hit in

26:12

my house. I was like- It's not

26:14

though, right? It has been

26:16

summarily rejected without even being watched. Wow.

26:18

Now, I don't know if this will-

26:20

Without even being watched? I

26:22

showed the trailer and it was

26:25

lukewarm, but you know- When you see your

26:27

children reject something out of hand after five

26:29

seconds, are you like my work here? Yeah,

26:31

that's what I was going to say. I

26:33

was like, as someone who- I

26:36

defy the two of you to name any time

26:38

where I have rejected an entire idea off of

26:40

a trailer. Certainly not something that made

26:42

a billion dollars in the box office and it's nominated

26:44

for Best Picture. A career

26:46

obituary. So, I am

26:49

proud that she's my daughter, but I

26:52

did think when it came on last week, I was like, oh,

26:54

here we go. I guess we're going to watch Friday night,

26:56

family time. We're going to watch the show. Absolutely

26:59

not because she said, again,

27:02

I'm not trying to besmirch this Netflix show. I have not

27:04

watched it. I know, it's fine. But it was really

27:06

interested that, and this is for people who don't

27:08

know, this is based on the beloved and actually

27:10

pretty amazing Nickelodeon cartoon. It was

27:13

then turned into an awful M. Night Shot 1 movie. M. Night,

27:15

yeah. That has been memory-holed and this is

27:17

trying to atone for that in many ways. Again,

27:20

it's preaching itself as like, we're

27:22

accurate. We're faithful to the source

27:24

material. She's like, I don't want to take

27:26

something, she's something that is

27:28

like a wonderful memory for me done as, this

27:31

is her words now, crappy CGI.

27:34

Wow. Yeah.

27:37

What's interesting is now that it's

27:39

a live action show, but in many ways it is

27:41

as animated as the cartoon. She

27:44

doesn't see the value add, which I think is

27:46

interesting. Again, I don't think there's anything, I don't

27:48

know if there's anything larger to intuit about the

27:50

future of our culture that way. Well, I do

27:52

wonder though, with your

27:56

daughter's cultural experience. Right. She's

27:58

really into anime. She's really in

28:01

the manga, she's grown up with

28:03

that concept of this is what

28:05

this stuff can look like and

28:07

also my brain can sort of

28:10

animate this stuff itself when I'm

28:12

reading it or when I'm watching

28:14

it. I think we had

28:16

some of that. I've had some experiences, but over

28:18

the last year, Scavenger's Ruin or Blue-eye Samurai, where

28:20

I'm like, actually, I

28:22

don't think you could have shot that. I mean, you

28:25

could have, but I think that there's something

28:27

kind of brilliant about that

28:29

kind of expansive, your

28:32

only limit is your imagination sort of animation.

28:35

I know that I'm always dicked by animation, but I'm

28:37

being serious. If you are used

28:39

to that and if you grew up with that and

28:41

that's your, to some extent, your

28:43

version of this story is animated to

28:46

see kind of like this

28:48

CGI version. I think I'm going

28:50

through this even, honestly, watching, before

28:52

Dune, I was watching the trailers and one was

28:54

for the new Planet of the Apes and one

28:56

was for the new King Kong. And both just

28:58

looked like kind of cartoons. It's just with like

29:01

Brian Tyree Henry being like, what have we done?

29:04

And I kind of am like, I

29:06

don't really give a shit about King Kong or the

29:08

Planet of the Apes, but my

29:10

version of those movies is just feels a

29:12

lot more like palpable and

29:15

like viscerally real even though they

29:17

are absurd like ideas. Well I

29:19

think it might be time to

29:22

revisit the very baked in assumption

29:24

among generations up to Jet

29:26

X and maybe one more generation past it that

29:30

turning something into live action is classing

29:32

it up. That it's improving it.

29:34

When to your point you can do

29:37

less or used to be able to do less visually and now

29:39

you can do just as much, but then

29:41

what are you making? What

29:45

is it about Avatar the Last Airbender, which was

29:47

on Netflix as a cartoon for many years, which is

29:49

how my kids discovered it. What

29:52

are you doing with it that makes it better? What

29:54

do you have to say about this material other than we're just

29:56

expanding it the IP? It's an argument that

29:58

people used to make about comics. too, which is just like, you

30:01

can, you can, the world has fallen

30:03

in love with the Avengers, but they don't actually

30:05

know what's great about comics because comics can

30:08

be so batchet crazy, right? Don't have to

30:10

be x, y or z thing in the

30:12

two hour movie. Yeah, I don't

30:14

know. I think that's, but I think that's an interesting, it's

30:17

an interesting point that this in the context

30:20

of this conversation, it feels like a very

30:23

old fashioned attitude, like, ah, we've got to

30:25

bring this to the masses. Well, the masses

30:27

speak manga, the anime, there's been

30:30

multiple decades now where that's what people are comfortable

30:33

with and what they understand and what they, in

30:35

many cases, what they prefer to watch. Now on

30:37

the flip side, you know, one of the

30:39

things that I think is probably like very

30:41

safe for people working on movie sets and

30:43

TV sets now is that I think they

30:45

use real fire, much less.

30:49

Oh, are you thinking of Leo and Once Upon a

30:51

Time in Hollywood? I think I was, I

30:53

was actually just thinking about there was, what was

30:55

I just watching where it may

30:57

have been Masters of the Air, but there was something where

30:59

I was like, that is not real fire. Like those are,

31:01

you know, yeah, it was Masters of the Air and

31:04

maybe it was, but it didn't look real

31:06

Masters of the Air still getting better and

31:08

better every week. I love that. By the

31:10

way, I don't want to continue to our

31:13

Dune conversation where you've seen it and I haven't, but

31:16

because I haven't seen it yet. But

31:18

you know, sometimes I listen to fresh air

31:20

and your guy, Denis was on yesterday. And

31:23

one thing that he was talking about, he

31:25

said it again. He did. Yeah. He has,

31:27

he was with Guillermo del Toro doing it

31:29

and they were both just like, who gives

31:31

a fucking shit about style? I mean, I

31:34

do take larger issue with that, but

31:36

I appreciate, I appreciate his

31:38

commitment. I love to see it takes me in the wild, you know?

31:40

Well, also sharpening his

31:43

katana. But

31:47

he's so committed to his version of cinema that

31:49

it's a thing. He's not like wishy washing it

31:51

being like, let's make the cheapest version

31:53

of all of it. Like he's making something that's

31:55

visual and that's his way of telling stories. And

31:58

frankly, hearing him being interviewed on a podcast. I

32:00

can tell that he thinks in pictures, which I don't mean that as

32:02

a dig, but he's not waxing poetic about

32:05

everything about it. He's like, I want to show you

32:07

what this means to me. But the thing

32:09

that he said that I found really interesting, and maybe people who

32:11

are deeper in these actual production

32:13

streets know this, is

32:15

that his biggest priority in all of

32:17

the Arrakis stuff, especially the sequel, was

32:20

using natural light at all times, even

32:23

if that required doing pickups on

32:25

two-person scenes in completely different locations

32:27

because of where the sun was.

32:30

So some of the conversations are cut between like 12 different

32:33

takes and locations. That's

32:35

very interesting. He wanted it always to be

32:37

the actual sun, which made everyone insane. But

32:41

I can guarantee, sight unseen, that

32:43

that makes fake computer

32:45

worms look better. I believe that.

32:48

Yeah, I mean, this is a whole

32:50

other conversation. I want to wait for you to see Dune

32:52

before we talk about Dune. But my fire thing was- Am

32:54

I Dune too much? Do you like

32:56

that? Fire thing was really just the

32:59

other night I was watching an action movie that we're going

33:01

to be doing on rewatchables. You can't

33:03

say it, despite Larry David. I know. Bill

33:05

has the Larry David rule, who goes up on Sunday and says

33:07

what we're doing. But in

33:09

it, several houses

33:11

explode. And you could tell they

33:14

blew those houses up. They did. They

33:16

really did. And then they were like, let's blow it up

33:18

some more because of a gas tank inside of the house. And

33:21

I wonder whether or not someone your

33:24

daughter's age would watch that and then

33:26

watch the CGI version of

33:28

an explosion or fire and care one way

33:30

or the other about the difference. She might

33:32

care about last airbenders. But

33:36

for things like, we watch Die Hard and all

33:38

this glass explodes off the Dokkatoi Plaza and we're

33:40

like, it's real. I'm not going to do it

33:43

to my guy's feet. Yeah. But

33:45

they would probably do that as CGI now. Well,

33:48

it's interesting because these- So

33:50

does a young person look at that and

33:53

say, the real version of this thing? This

33:56

doesn't move me. The stuntman version of this doesn't move me. So

33:58

I have two children who are currently seven. and 10

34:00

and they have known the word CGI

34:02

and CG for most of their existence.

34:04

Yeah. And comment on it like,

34:07

like in terms of that was good or

34:09

bad or I see that like that's just

34:11

part of their visual language. And I'm interested

34:13

to see what they

34:16

not just what they bump on if they watch

34:18

older things, but also what they are charmed or

34:20

delighted by and how it affects them just almost

34:24

spiritually or aesthetically when they see other things

34:26

like I was very taken with the fact,

34:28

I mean, not just because I liked it

34:30

too, but my older daughter really liked the

34:33

wonderful life of Henry Sugar, which is the Wes

34:35

Anderson short film. He made four of it's the

34:37

longest and sort of the lead,

34:39

the lead feature of these Roald Dahl

34:42

adaptations. These are on Netflix. And this

34:44

one is nominated for an Oscar for

34:46

best short. And

34:49

you know, it is a Wes Anderson

34:51

movie. And so everything is very

34:53

homemade and practical. And

34:55

like the scene where Yogi is in

34:57

a lotus position and levitating, he's sitting

34:59

on a box that is painted the

35:01

same color as the background. And

35:03

I think that they she really

35:06

liked that and noticed it. Yeah. So

35:08

it's interesting to see the noticing go backwards too, that like,

35:11

you know, how much was done? I feel

35:13

like I joked on this podcast a few months ago about how I tried

35:15

to show them a Harold Lloyd movie. I was like, ah,

35:17

you did? Yeah. So that was

35:19

didn't go great. Yeah. But there

35:21

was a different reaction to the perceived

35:23

peril. Like there's the scene where

35:25

he's hanging from the famous thing. He's hanging on the clock.

35:27

And this is in Safety Last. I

35:29

think it stressed them out in a

35:32

way that all of the

35:34

fire in the movies that Uncle Chris keeps trying to show

35:36

them does not. That's right.

35:38

You know, the anime version of Backdraft that

35:40

you're trying to get off. Yeah, I think

35:42

it's like there's there's a huge argument to

35:45

be made for like when you watch some

35:47

things like say from the 40s, you may

35:49

respond to a certain actorly style that's like

35:51

pre method that feels very theatrical or. Yeah,

35:53

it's like declarative declarative or stagey. And that's

35:55

also because of like, you know, audio recording

35:58

was different back then. And

36:00

you might also like, I was thinking kind of

36:02

a better example of what I'm talking about might

36:04

be the difference between Fast X and

36:07

Bullet, the Steve McQueen movie. Right. Both

36:10

have incredible car chases. One is completely

36:12

computer animated or mostly computer animated. And

36:14

the other is like guys

36:16

driving around San Francisco and crashing into things

36:18

in real life. But I don't know

36:20

if like that would matter to

36:22

someone who is watching Fast X. I don't,

36:24

maybe that the whole point is, no,

36:27

I want to see this car crash through

36:29

a tower in Dubai. I

36:31

felt like I had a similar reaction though when we talked

36:33

about it a little bit when we were talking about over

36:36

the summer. This is a very close-to-man pod for us today.

36:38

Well, we were just both listening to talk, we missed our

36:40

friends. Yeah. It was delightful listening to him on

36:42

Bill. I owe him a call. The Mission

36:45

Impossible podcast we did this summer and

36:48

like why the Tom Cruise Haley Atwell

36:50

car chase worked,

36:52

quote unquote, and why Harrison

36:55

Ford standing on two trains in the Indiana

36:57

Jones movie didn't work. And I

37:00

am sure it wouldn't, I don't need Christopher McQuarrie

37:03

to explain it to me that there is a

37:05

ton of post-production in that car chase. Right. Yes.

37:09

But there's also, maybe the comp more is the,

37:11

in the same way that like Denis Villanova is

37:13

thinking about the light, you could tell

37:15

that McQuarrie was thinking about the

37:17

very, very basic almost silent film

37:20

comedic possibilities and the choreography of

37:22

two people trying to drive a

37:24

car while handcuffed, you know, or a

37:26

small car. There are things that are very human

37:29

scale. This car is little and the other cars

37:31

are big. Yeah. As

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opposed to we can do anything and

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consistently excellent performance absolutely

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free at netsweet.com/wringer that

40:05

is netsweet.com/wringer interesting

40:08

stuff really thought-provoking stuff where

40:10

we going next today uh should we go to

40:12

feudal japan yeah speaking of feudal the one thing

40:14

i realized i forgot to do and maybe we

40:17

can revisit in the future was i was imagining

40:19

that there is in the same way like in

40:21

shogun there's the five regents who are

40:23

left in charge of the empire who are the five

40:26

regents in charge of stripping me of

40:28

my philadelphia citizenship for my

40:30

error last week and i was like is

40:32

it i figured it's like gritty yeah ed

40:34

ron dell ed ron dell the gov quest

40:36

love the jeweler with the diamond in his

40:38

beard rip um

40:42

patty lebel is that robin's eighth and walnut yes yeah

40:44

rock and robin's he's no longer with this i googled

40:47

i got it yeah but late late into life when

40:49

he was a more um you know like people shrink

40:51

a little bit and they get older like he

40:53

still had the diamond in there a little scraggly beard

40:56

kept the diamond in make it sound like we're all

40:58

going to turn into skeletons are

41:01

you watching the presidential race it's weird

41:03

you're like what

41:07

an interesting uh yeah oh

41:10

hypothetical okay okay you can fill out

41:12

your you can fill out your bracket

41:14

my my funeral regents of of who

41:16

determine whether it's philia yeah um

41:18

okay so i was trying to think of like

41:21

how to approach show gun because we've already kind

41:23

of did our uh our hosannas for it when

41:25

we talked about it in the preview the two

41:27

episodes are up the first two episodes of the

41:30

series and i will

41:32

just reiterate like my general praise for this

41:35

show which is essentially like after re-watching these

41:37

episodes there's just so much

41:39

like craft going on here and so much

41:41

of like what i think television is

41:44

great at which is telling these really

41:46

dense in-depth stories and

41:49

introducing us to worlds that like are

41:51

different from our own in some way

41:53

or whether it's historically or culturally or

41:55

geographically or whatever um i

41:58

was thinking a lot about thrones though because Because

42:00

obviously Thrones has been the show that's sort of, I

42:03

think has become closely associated

42:05

with Shogun in

42:08

the critiques of the show and the praise of the show. Yeah,

42:10

I think there's an obvious nod

42:13

to Game of Thrones in the trailer, in the

42:16

credits rather. So

42:18

there's like an easy way of just being like, oh,

42:21

this is FX's shot at a Game of

42:23

Thrones. This is FX's big

42:26

swords and sex epic. And

42:30

I think there's some truth to that, but

42:33

there's something kind of interesting about the way Game of

42:35

Thrones starts, which is there was a lot of humility,

42:37

I think, to that show. You know, it was something

42:39

where they had to scrap the pilot. They were kind

42:41

of making a little bit more of a chamber drama.

42:44

There was a lot of like, obviously, sex and

42:46

violence in those first few episodes, but in that

42:48

first season, some huge twists. But

42:50

I don't think they knew what they had. And

42:52

when you read these Benioff and Weiss interviews that

42:54

have been coming out around three-body problem, I think

42:56

that that's the case there too. It's been interesting

42:59

to hear them talking about making

43:01

three-body problem, because obviously I think the budget is much

43:03

bigger. I think they know there's a lot more eyes

43:05

on them. This is an international sci-fi property

43:07

that people are like, okay, you guys got to nail

43:09

it. And I think they know that this is like

43:11

their quote unquote follow up to Game of Thrones, and

43:13

in some ways, maybe a way to make things right.

43:17

So I was thinking about all this in relationship to

43:19

Shogun, because Shogun is at once, you

43:22

know, I think somewhat obscure material at

43:25

this point compared to Game of Thrones. Yeah,

43:28

to that generation of fans, I think so. And

43:30

also is about, you know, it's 50%, if

43:34

not more in another language, than

43:36

most of the viewers watching are gonna know. I

43:39

think that there is like a kind of

43:41

complexity to the relationships

43:43

and the customs in

43:46

the show. It's all stuff you have to learn, just like

43:48

you did for Game of Thrones. You know, we didn't speak

43:50

Dothraki. We didn't know about like, you know, all

43:53

these things. But I think

43:56

Shogun has to come out and have a little bit

43:58

of swagger, and it does. Because it

44:01

can't really afford to be like people

44:03

are just gonna watch the chatty version of this

44:05

show it has to have The

44:08

ships it has to have The

44:10

guy about to commit seppuku and the

44:12

waves it has to have like

44:15

kind of these big swing moments So

44:17

I was wondering if you could help me locate like

44:19

where the show is on the meter between like hey

44:21

We're just trying to do our thing. It's humble. It's

44:24

you were fighting our way cuz shows aren't allowed to

44:26

find their way anymore I think

44:28

that's a very good point. I think that When we

44:30

think back about the launch of Game of Thrones

44:32

what feels so upside down about it now Is

44:35

that the pressure that existed for the

44:37

first season was? Trying

44:40

to impress the HBO viewer

44:43

not to attract Dragon

44:45

fans. Yeah. Yeah the Conversation

44:48

around it was what's HBO doing and

44:50

why is this an HBO show HBO

44:52

has boardwalk Empire? why is it making

44:55

this and Most

44:57

people when Game of Thrones like was in the midways

44:59

to the first season if you hadn't already had like

45:01

uptake on it You

45:03

would get recommended to me is like you gotta

45:06

watch Game of Thrones. No, trust me You'll like

45:08

it right as if like now in retrospect that

45:10

seems ridiculous but like I guess at the time

45:12

I wasn't like a big

45:14

dragons and and and and

45:16

now fantasy and now That's

45:18

also true, but That's

45:21

what made the show so smart was

45:24

Something that you know, depending who you ask may

45:26

have been something that they thought was

45:29

a limitation that they had to earn the

45:31

dragons and the budget that comes comes with it

45:34

and the leap into Just

45:37

full genre storytelling, right? There's

45:39

there had to be a they

45:41

had to start small for any number of

45:43

reasons that I think ultimately benefited the

45:46

project and What

45:48

I find so interesting about Shogun is that it

45:50

never I mean This is why I don't work

45:52

in the executive suites of networks But like it

45:54

never occurred to me that we would be talking

45:56

about Game of Thrones when we talked about this.

45:58

Yeah, I didn't have any sense of what the show

46:01

would be. So I should say that up front, but

46:03

I think that one of

46:05

the advantages of the FX leadership team that

46:07

has been in place for so long with

46:09

John Landraff and Nick Rad and Gina Bailey

46:11

and many other people there who have been

46:13

consistent in what they've been doing is that

46:15

they have a lot of conversations and

46:18

they are. I don't know if that's

46:20

still the case, despite, you know, post Disney merger and

46:22

Hulu and all these things, but they

46:24

had the luxury of taking their time. And

46:27

maybe, I don't know

46:29

how granular they get, but I imagine that when

46:31

Game of Thrones hit and it hit a

46:33

decade ago, plus over a decade ago, they

46:36

had a number of spirit conversations about what

46:39

was hitting and more specifically, what is their

46:41

version of that and how to, um, how

46:44

to make something that works on HBO work

46:46

for them and instead of launching,

46:48

um, instead of, I mean, not that they

46:51

could have, but basically if you think of

46:53

a lot of the post Game of Thrones

46:55

reactions were things like let's

46:57

shell out a quarter of a billion dollars for,

47:00

um, for the Lord of the rings universe.

47:03

Um, and, and assuming that what people liked about

47:05

Game of Thrones was the thing that they actually

47:07

kind of bumped on by the end, which is

47:09

just, this is. This is

47:11

storytelling on a level that is no longer human or

47:13

recognizable. It's just dragons incinerating

47:16

stuff. Yeah. Um, they were, they

47:18

were saying, well, people who liked Game of Thrones

47:20

and the numbers that they liked it also liked

47:22

X, Y, or Z thing. Just fundamentally being like,

47:24

we're not going to do a fantasy epic. We're

47:26

going to do an epic is

47:29

seems so logical, but

47:32

that totally, that didn't occur to me and

47:34

that just as it didn't occur to a lot of

47:36

the other, um, programming heads.

47:39

So I think that's very smart. I would say

47:41

that, um, I mean,

47:43

yes, you could listen to my argument and be like, if they were so

47:45

smart, why did they wait 14 years to have

47:47

their Game of Thrones killer? Sure. So

47:49

I don't really think it's a one to one,

47:51

but I do think none of these decisions happen

47:53

in a vacuum. They are ongoing conversations about what

47:55

works for whom and how and why. And I'm

47:58

sure that when the rights to this were available,

48:00

many, many. years ago, someone started to ask these

48:02

questions. I think that for

48:04

me, maybe this is

48:06

on brand, the things that I bumped on, which

48:08

were minimal and mostly confined to the first hours

48:10

I was kind of getting my bearings were

48:13

the things that felt more in

48:16

your face, the aggro, whether it's like the

48:19

couple cutbacks to the piping

48:22

bowl of man soup that my guy. Oh

48:24

yeah, when he's boiling in the kettle. Yeah,

48:26

that my, who's my guy?

48:28

Yeah, but she gave me a

48:31

game. Or

48:34

I'm not at least two. I'm not a huge fan of the

48:36

score. Oh, this is

48:38

just Atticus Ross minus Trent

48:40

Reznor. Yeah, you're a real Reznor originalist. I

48:42

need to run that through just Trent's keyboard,

48:44

you know, before I can really sign off

48:47

on it. There's nothing wrong with the music.

48:49

This is this is not me trying to

48:51

find something to complain about. But there are

48:53

moments with the music that are with it

48:56

feel like they are doing the

48:58

work of a note that said we got to grab

49:00

people faster. And so what they're

49:02

going to do is pump up the

49:04

music there. Yeah, yeah. Okay, just digress

49:06

really quickly. I currently am obsessed with

49:08

the main theme of Masters of the

49:10

Year and I've been like humming it

49:13

around the house constantly.

49:15

Yeah. And I we're

49:17

a divorce town like it's just like, why

49:20

the fuck do you keep going? That's not how

49:22

I hum. Do you do

49:25

it? Yeah, first of all, it's not humming. It's like leap dates.

49:30

Another thing you missed early. Do

49:32

you do that when you tackle

49:34

some dishes in the sink? Yeah, actually. Yeah.

49:37

So it's really like to get you going because you're

49:39

a master of Don soft scrub.

49:43

Yeah, I'm a master of

49:45

the sink. Is that I'm

49:47

trying to think I mean, maybe

49:50

we should say this for our Patreon because I

49:52

think they're they're they're relationship moments when this music

49:54

would be great. And moments when

49:56

I think it might be suspect. You

49:58

know, yeah. The word

50:01

master is problematic. So,

50:03

okay. Should you

50:05

start humming the Shogun music? I

50:07

actually can't remember it. It didn't even bother me. Okay.

50:11

Okay. Okay. You didn't

50:13

like the music and... That wasn't my take. You

50:15

don't like boiling guys. No,

50:17

I'm open to it. It's interesting. What if this

50:19

pod was only five minutes long and it was

50:21

like Shogun liked X, Y, and Z? Didn't

50:24

like... Honestly, with this

50:26

attention economy, I think we would do very well.

50:29

I mean, so we talked the other day

50:31

about why we loved the show and I... This

50:34

won't surprise anyone. I rarely...

50:36

Even the shows I really like, I'm really like,

50:38

let me get back into it quickly. I had

50:40

to stop myself watching ahead because we have screeners

50:43

and I'm really, really enjoying the

50:45

show. So I did not watch ahead. Yeah, well,

50:47

this is also a really... I mean, I think

50:49

that it's a significant amount of time to spend

50:51

these two episodes. I think it's like 70 and

50:53

50 in runtime for the first two.

50:56

Yeah. And then there was that thirst for the

50:58

third one because you're almost like, I got

51:00

all the sort of... I

51:02

have the family tree straight. I got all the different plot lines

51:04

going. I know who my people are now. I'm

51:07

following Martine, the double dealing

51:09

preacher here. I

51:11

got to kind of stay on top of it and then if you wait

51:13

a week, you may be like, oh, fuck, what are

51:16

we doing again? Anyway, I wanted

51:18

to talk to you a little bit about something which

51:20

is the art of the character introduction because I thought

51:22

that this episode, these two episodes had some

51:25

really pretty iconic kind

51:27

of ways of us. We

51:30

meet these characters in just like these incredible

51:32

ways. Now, obviously the first character we meet

51:35

is the pilot, John, who is played by

51:37

Cosmo Jarvis. And one of

51:39

the things I really like about this character is that even

51:41

though, and it's sort of maybe 10, 15

51:44

years ago, especially when Shogun was

51:46

first adapted as a miniseries Richard

51:50

Chamberlain, that's your POV character. That's the person

51:52

that we're going to spend most of our

51:55

time with. And what I really loved about

51:57

this is that from the second you meet,

51:59

John. You're kind of like, he's

52:02

an abrasive prick, you know? And I

52:04

do believe that he is probably rating

52:06

Catholic bases and being

52:08

really violent. He's

52:11

untrustworthy, he's unreliable. And so the

52:14

traditional POV character, the audience avatar, the

52:16

person that we're experiencing this world through,

52:19

actually to me, maybe morally,

52:21

but maybe just like vibe wise, is

52:23

an outsider a little bit.

52:26

I think that he is as

52:28

much a

52:30

disruption to everything as he

52:32

is like our way in. And

52:35

I think that that's a crucial and

52:37

really fascinating accomplishment.

52:41

I think that's very well observed.

52:43

I think it's very subtle. And

52:45

it makes me want to rewatch

52:47

to think about how exactly they did it and how

52:49

much thought went into it. Because when he says, and

52:51

he says a version of this repeatedly, he says, I'm

52:53

not going to die here. I'm not going to die

52:55

like this. It doesn't sound like Captain

52:57

America being like, not today, Hydra. No, it

52:59

sounds like a guy's deluded by his

53:02

own ambition. Yes, and that

53:04

he has this, you know,

53:06

his crusade might not

53:08

be explicitly religious. In fact, it seems

53:10

more anti-Catholic than it is pro-testant,

53:13

pro-protestant. But

53:15

it seems like the crusade seems to be

53:17

the glorification itself. He's like, I think I'm

53:19

meant for a bigger fate than this. And

53:22

so what's interesting then is that we see

53:24

him more clearly the

53:26

way Torinaga sees him, which is

53:28

as a tool, a chip,

53:30

something to bargain with, something to use,

53:32

you know. And

53:34

Blackthorn's chaos and his chaotic

53:37

energy is in interesting

53:39

contrast to the stillness with

53:41

which Torinaga leads. I mean,

53:43

he keeps, it's

53:46

very intentional and interesting the way over those

53:48

first two episodes, Blackthorn appears to be dragged

53:50

out of every scene he's in physically, where

53:53

Torinaga just gets up and leaves after he said three

53:55

things. Yeah, even though Torinaga is supposed to be essentially

53:57

a hostage, you know, in some ways, or a prisoner

53:59

in... Yes in a kind of subtle way,

54:01

but there's an economy to what he says and what he does

54:03

that is very much in contrast I Also

54:07

feel like his his character introduction is quite

54:09

awesome as well because he's doing the falconry,

54:12

right? He's doing the falconry

54:14

which is him controlling, you know, like

54:16

communication him controlling, you know and showing

54:18

his comfort level with my sworn enemy

54:20

First that's right. I would never I

54:22

and I would have an elaborate system of rats with

54:25

information tied to their tiny paws And

54:27

helping you make which I believe I

54:30

believe that's what Actually

54:32

controlling me. Yeah by living under my hat.

54:34

Isn't that what varus did master whispers? Wasn't

54:36

there a lot of rat stuff? Was there

54:39

no, no, no, they were his little what did he

54:41

call them? He burned children. He called them birds. Oh

54:44

I had it dubbed I Was

54:47

like I can't handle this so we went back

54:49

in and we punched in rats rat. So they

54:51

were appealing Yeah, anyway, it's also the

54:54

small things like You know you

54:56

were joking before and like seeing Nestor carbonyl

54:58

back on an island brought everybody back But

55:00

that was the other thing is his sort

55:02

of like when he arrived It's like the

55:04

gear shift the show needs at that point

55:06

in the episode but but

55:08

it's also the Way

55:10

that the show is signaling

55:12

its interest in multiple people

55:14

through dynamic characters and dynamic

55:16

character introductions It's not

55:19

through either performer because other

55:21

than Esther carbonyl, you know I was

55:23

saying before like Tada. No Boasano is

55:25

recognizable, but I don't know him as

55:27

one thing or another in particular So

55:29

you're not they're not banking on us

55:31

saying aha that person. I know he's

55:33

important because he's famous They're also

55:35

not banking on us having some allegiance

55:38

or interest in someone because they are

55:40

being led by their archetype

55:42

because we don't really know the lay of the

55:45

land instead the show is saying this person has

55:47

a little spark in his eye Yeah, they're saying

55:50

Yeah, but she gay is kind

55:52

of a freak. He's kind of interesting. Yeah,

55:54

what drives his passions? Why

55:57

Is he the man boy? Why She brought tucking

55:59

to the east? Yeah, you know,

56:01

I think more. Last episode established

56:03

without question that fucking was invented

56:05

by a board. British.

56:08

Lord. I believed said

56:10

twelfth century was an eleventh century but you

56:12

know at that time there's a of cultural

56:14

exchange. Were like you know people know Pasta

56:16

came. From. The East to Italy?

56:18

Yes, and we in the West gave

56:20

back as well, right? That's so there's

56:22

The Trade routes are myriad and fascinating,

56:24

and I think that Shogun is really

56:27

opening the up soon. As. Learning

56:29

more. yeah it did so it would the

56:31

Dutch East India trading that was all about

56:33

with smoking and practices against of ah I

56:35

wanted cycle of the bottom where he goes

56:38

it is I don't remember if is her.

56:40

First. Appearance: But

56:43

when she is sort of brought of

56:45

she goes into see Fuji's wife as

56:47

she's got the blade to her next

56:49

has he's He's. Made. This mistake

56:51

in the in the conference of the reasons

56:53

and he's oh yeah, told everybody out so

56:55

he's. Get. A. Can. Up

56:58

through an end his own wine which is

57:00

bad news for his baby and his wife

57:02

is like i can't live with the same

57:04

the I'm and a half the live like

57:07

basically like my family goes away yes and

57:09

I have to live with like the same

57:11

the disguise brought on our house and that's

57:13

when and us allies Murray go character or

57:16

shows up soon of into becomes very important

57:18

characters throughout the Sit series. I'm sure by

57:20

it's is like essentially that she's translator between

57:22

Torn Naga and By Stone. Blacks Thorn make

57:25

you saying by Stone I just. I.

57:27

Love Private Equity as a as

57:29

a dry ice on. I.

57:31

Thought this is a really i'm an

57:34

amazing scene to you know, obviously just

57:36

like. Schilling to watch somebody

57:38

with a giant blade up against to. Their.

57:41

Throat while they're holding a baby by. yeah, just

57:43

like though they're kind of with those two characters

57:45

talked about was was was sort of drippings. August

57:48

when we say this isn't overcome thing like I think the

57:50

show is doing a very good job of. Slow.

57:52

Walking us into some particulars of

57:54

the culture like the role that

57:56

sepik who plays in this in

57:58

in especially at. The level

58:00

of governance is important and

58:03

interesting. I really really valued

58:05

the fact that they didn't show it in

58:07

his first two episodes. I'm sure it's check

58:09

on Sep ago so I i know it's

58:11

coming, but I thought that was. Classy.

58:14

To be honest and also more interesting, because

58:16

we sought we hear it and we feel

58:18

it. It's the shows not going to show.

58:21

Hanging from of it's the hanging from a

58:23

skyscraper thing that you were talking about. It's

58:25

like it's more effective to watch this woman's.

58:28

Emotional anguish and also her

58:30

articulate like. The. Reasons why

58:32

he's in the state of anguish which are not

58:34

just limited to I mean, I miss my family.

58:38

And then. Have that eventually

58:40

pay off later in the episode but

58:42

not be process and particularly the other

58:44

she gay. Scene. In the

58:46

waves, Where. We are yeah, where

58:49

where where blacks or learns so much

58:51

about this guy who's been not you a

58:53

comic character but he sort of his foil

58:55

in his opening scenes together. What's.

58:57

He is willing to do and even just

59:00

the perspective of it. Is. Like.

59:02

Is he going to fight the ocean with his sword?

59:04

What is actually half of the other? I

59:07

thought was very artfully done and risk and tastefully

59:09

done. I think that it's going to be in

59:11

a question that we're going to have throughout the season, which

59:13

is. They. Rushed into this like

59:16

a we sure. Like. He

59:19

got a ghost like it does seem like

59:21

a zero to sixty thing out. the sceptical

59:23

say yes yeah Like a moment ago when

59:25

I was on some nonsense monologue about. Harry

59:27

Potter writers. you're like me I

59:29

interject. And

59:32

I thought I was very polite. I

59:34

don't think I even executive our I You

59:37

want to tell a story about singing as

59:39

a city Hear music coming i'm sorry incorrectly

59:41

in front of your wife. Now

59:45

you I did. You need to endure Line

59:47

over that. Know death.

59:50

But. If we're in feudal Japan, your posts

59:52

as. A

59:55

You know it's it's it seems. Rest. Is

59:57

the Get Dizzy, get Richard Lewis or the Tributes there.

1:00:00

We're talking about that. We should talk about that. Yeah.

1:00:03

I don't know I mean I I may

1:00:06

be delegated for Zulus was with had done.

1:00:08

So. Gun exhibit. I'm not putting my well.

1:00:10

I prefer summer temperatures will. I was ready

1:00:12

to go on it. I gotta say it's

1:00:14

very sad that he passed away on a

1:00:16

date. Smith truly one of the grades I

1:00:18

I went down a deep rabbit hole watching.

1:00:21

Repugnant hundred over some particular and curb

1:00:23

clips and. The. Thing that I

1:00:25

really appreciated seem to back to back was.

1:00:28

says. When. They would be. Yelling

1:00:31

at each other in character. that something. And

1:00:34

then there be some sort of malapropism. And

1:00:36

then they would just absolutely grab the wheel

1:00:38

and just turn. yeah like when he's he's

1:00:40

really mad at Larry. Nice. Just like you

1:00:43

know these are bad effect. These are bad

1:00:45

people who do not like Bin Ladens people

1:00:47

and goods to use a pen. Lot This

1:00:49

is a specific did I say something and

1:00:51

what am I to remain as watching her

1:00:53

bloopers sometimes because. You. Know Gb

1:00:55

smooth just breaks David all the

1:00:58

time. By. Watching him

1:01:00

crack passing clarity of a crack up.

1:01:02

The Richard Lewis. I like at

1:01:04

the funeral or like about the sandwich and stuff

1:01:06

is just so amazing I asked what was your

1:01:08

because I know people of different relationships with Richard

1:01:10

Lewis. Weather was as I said I remember him

1:01:12

as like a Comic Relief era like eighty stand

1:01:14

Up and as I sort of my major relationship

1:01:16

to of my other big one was Do member

1:01:19

the short not for Lives around a couple seasons

1:01:21

for their and A B C sitcom called Anyone

1:01:23

But You. Didn't was

1:01:25

Jamie Lee Curtis, that's right and

1:01:27

Richard Lewis and was a romantic.

1:01:29

Ah, I gotta

1:01:31

wrong, it's called anything but Love aiding the love

1:01:33

and it ran for like three or four years

1:01:35

in the late eighties into the early nineties and

1:01:37

I remember this. Watching. The show.

1:01:40

And. I remember that like is Richard

1:01:42

Lewis had the long hair and you like

1:01:44

word leather jacket yeah Hannah like as a

1:01:47

this guy's a bad boys this is This

1:01:49

is my perspective and then to realize that

1:01:51

he's just another neurotic like I mean cause

1:01:53

dangerous. Yeah, we get his hair, I

1:01:55

target of that. a mob polarizer. Odd bad about

1:01:58

you are a lot of guys. The

1:02:00

Library. Massive. Shift. To

1:02:02

Since What? Are

1:02:04

you see know customers like looking at the culture?

1:02:06

I'm like what it, what a golden age he

1:02:09

was the seventies when everyone's like a we had

1:02:11

gold sex symbol. yeah as a wooded we do.

1:02:13

What do we need to do? What am I

1:02:15

people me to do to get back to that?

1:02:17

But I realize we're running a good game to

1:02:19

the eighties nineties yet a riser Louis and they

1:02:21

all end up your popovich their procedures as the

1:02:23

city's uses the for uninterrupted broken they all end

1:02:26

up sitting around a table at a golf course

1:02:28

in curb your enthusiasm fetching this if there were

1:02:30

supposed to go any other shogun notes before we

1:02:32

just lately hit the regime and get outta here.

1:02:34

I'd like to to say that this is the only. Consistent

1:02:37

Entertainment podcast that sandwich their Richard Lewis

1:02:39

tribute into have a sister that semper

1:02:41

to an episode Jewish Yoga and I

1:02:43

think it's really what. Now.

1:02:46

It will be no. Larry David confirmed was answering your

1:02:48

pods As he did he depreciate. We're

1:02:51

very excited about the show. were going to keep talking about

1:02:53

it from we to eat them sir. Yes a

1:02:55

what do we get it? So the show is a

1:02:57

Wednesday night. So ugly, so desire month or so be

1:02:59

during Thursday's and some Monday kind of them sir. Grab

1:03:01

bag. Well. We have the Regime on

1:03:03

Sunday nights of I don't know for going to

1:03:06

talk about the regime every week. it's certainly ah

1:03:08

so is coming out on Sunday night. I would

1:03:10

say for fans of the Iannuzzi style of comedy

1:03:12

that you find in V for the sick of

1:03:14

it or not and succession because it's Dna and

1:03:16

very much depth of Stalin which is like kind

1:03:19

of I was his those shows I thought of

1:03:21

the most or the movie that I thought of

1:03:23

the most while watching this show is of the

1:03:25

stars. Kate Winslet as the. Chancellor.

1:03:28

For unquote, but basically dictator of

1:03:30

a by take on middle European

1:03:32

middle wonder if it looks it's

1:03:34

very grand Budapest Hotel by yes

1:03:36

so there are some like obviously

1:03:38

like fictionalized versions. There are some

1:03:40

fictionalized. Flourishes, Like

1:03:42

they did. The country is a named. Everybody

1:03:44

there speak in English accent but it's meant

1:03:47

to be I think. sort of a. Hungry.

1:03:50

Eastern Bloc I x Soviet money for

1:03:53

your hunger. Hungary is like Oberon, you

1:03:55

know how your boy? Yes, I got

1:03:57

it. written off as What's

1:04:01

with the high-entite stuff from you today? I don't

1:04:03

know. I don't know. Check my

1:04:06

milligrams on my Zinn pouch. And

1:04:09

Kate Winslet plays the Chancellor of

1:04:11

this country. It's very much got

1:04:13

like this dry

1:04:16

morbid British wit to it. Will Tracy wrote

1:04:19

the first episode. Stephen Frears directed it. Incredible

1:04:22

Andrea Risborough performance as the

1:04:24

Chancellor's sort of assistant. Matthias

1:04:27

Schoenaert plays an alleged

1:04:30

war criminal who comes into the sort

1:04:32

of inner circle of the Chancellor and

1:04:34

becomes her sort of right-hand

1:04:37

man for lack of a better term.

1:04:39

So we'll be talking about that next

1:04:41

week. I just thought we would put it on the radar. Yeah.

1:04:44

You and I have only checked out the first one. So we won't get

1:04:46

in front of it really other than. Well, they're only airing one. Yeah.

1:04:49

No, I know. But I mean, I found the show

1:04:51

expertly made. Yeah. Friend

1:04:54

of the podcast, Kate Winslet is good at anything. I'm

1:04:56

a little confused to

1:04:58

the project of this show because it was not what I

1:05:00

thought it was going to be in a way. I don't

1:05:02

know. I don't know what I thought because it

1:05:04

is an hour long and it's sort of living in this space

1:05:07

where it's like, yes, this is clearly from

1:05:09

that same brutally satirical

1:05:11

school of British

1:05:13

comedy. Yeah. But it's

1:05:15

also an HBO drama that is poking fun at

1:05:18

some things that exist in our world, but doing

1:05:20

it in a lens. I haven't got

1:05:22

the tone. I'm not quite on

1:05:24

board with it yet because also the first episode does

1:05:26

a lot of prologue to

1:05:28

get Kate Winslet's chancellor character to a place

1:05:30

with show nerds, you know, sort of man

1:05:33

of the people slash potential war criminal aid

1:05:36

to where it's going to be going. She's going to start

1:05:38

ruling with more of an iron fist. Yeah. Right.

1:05:41

Right. been

1:05:44

being pulled in different directions by her cabinet.

1:05:47

And so we don't want to give too much away before

1:05:49

people get a chance to see it. I think that I

1:05:51

watched this first episode. I agree with you largely that I

1:05:53

was like, this is very good, but I'm

1:05:55

not exactly. I think

1:05:58

I've now conditioned myself to be like. what's

1:06:00

the hook here? What

1:06:02

is it? That being

1:06:04

said, it's Winslet, right?

1:06:06

That ultimately is her

1:06:09

having a multi-episode platform to

1:06:11

cook. I think cook is

1:06:13

the right verb to use because they went

1:06:15

shopping at the best markets. The ingredients

1:06:18

here are absolutely first rate. What's

1:06:21

confusing to me after one episode is what is the

1:06:23

goal of the dish? Because if it's something like The

1:06:25

Great, which was a show on Hulu that we didn't

1:06:28

end up talking too much about, but I think was

1:06:30

in a similar arch, absurdist,

1:06:33

political, satirical tone, that

1:06:36

show worked for me. From one,

1:06:38

I was like, I see it. I see

1:06:41

it and I feel it, even though it's

1:06:43

playing things broadly, but I'm also somehow vibing

1:06:45

emotionally with it in a way that works.

1:06:47

That's the toughest thing to do. I

1:06:50

don't think that's the goal of the show, but I just note that

1:06:52

I don't see it yet. I

1:06:55

don't see the path after one, which is fine. We don't need to

1:06:57

always grade things after one,

1:06:59

but I was more confused after one

1:07:02

episode than I was excited.

1:07:04

Well, I'm excited to see for people to check it

1:07:06

out and we'll talk more about it in depth on

1:07:08

Monday, maybe. Until then, you were

1:07:10

produced by Kaya McMullen. Do you wanna

1:07:12

work anything out? Do you feel attacked a little bit

1:07:15

today? No, I'm okay. I just

1:07:17

feel like, I think we started this

1:07:19

podcast with you being like, explain leap day to

1:07:21

me, leap year to me. I

1:07:23

tried to serve up a lot of green

1:07:25

and wild friendly dishes today. My Sally

1:07:27

Rooney, Larry Potter. I

1:07:30

had a great time. We

1:07:33

were produced by Kaya McMullen and we will be back on Monday

1:07:35

until then I hope everybody has a great weekend. This

1:07:52

episode is brought to you by Empower. You

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