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boards have cleared the room. Stand

2:12

up and walk, now! Hello

2:15

and welcome to The Watch. My name is

2:17

Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com

2:20

and joining me in the studio picking up from

2:22

the events of 1997, it's

2:25

Charles Hoe! Oh,

2:30

what's up man? How are you? Great to see you. Aw

2:32

man, you know, just living this LA lifestyle,

2:35

you know. I have to be honest,

2:37

I did not want to burn pod. Oh yeah? I have

2:39

to bring something up. Dude, dude, go ahead. When

2:42

you asked me like, yo, you want to be on The Watch?

2:44

Oh, you thought Andy was going to be here? No. Okay.

2:48

I knew Andy wasn't going to be here. And shout out to

2:50

Andy and little admin, I just, I mixed up his spring breaks.

2:52

He just has so many. So I just didn't know what, like

2:54

what was happening when and what part of the nation he was

2:56

going to be in. He'll be back on Thursday. My

2:59

issue with this is that, you

3:02

know, Andy has been on a heater. Yeah.

3:04

You know what I'm saying? It's been a

3:06

really good time for Andy. He's been on

3:08

the like, the Blackthorn voice

3:10

is kind of just like when you're like, oh,

3:12

LeBron can play forever. No,

3:14

you know what it is? It's also for me, it's like,

3:16

because voices were kind of like, that's how

3:18

I, that's my bread and my butter. Yeah, and he kind

3:21

of stepped in your corner a little bit. And then it

3:23

was just like, oh, like what if Tiger Woods was also

3:25

great at math? You know what I mean? Like, I didn't

3:27

know, like, I didn't know Andy also had that in his

3:29

bag. I actually did know Andy's actually like low key, the

3:31

better impressionist of the two of us. But

3:34

yes, but Andy's been on a heater. You

3:36

invited me on. I'm just like, yo, the watch listeners are going to

3:38

be like, dog, like really, I'm

3:40

getting diet and come on. But

3:45

I'm honored. Never that. So today Charles and I are

3:47

going to talk a little bit about, I want to

3:49

talk to him a little bit about nostalgia because obviously

3:51

there's an age gap between me and Charles,

3:53

but I think we're both feeling some similar things

3:56

about the nostalgia industry. I'll put it that

3:58

way. We're also going

4:00

to talk a little bit about the

4:02

Gerard Carmichael reality show, which premiered I

4:04

think on Friday on Max and on

4:07

the HBO network, a family of networks. And

4:10

that's a really interesting conversation to have.

4:12

I'm not sure how, I'm not

4:15

sure where I'm at with that show. And then also we can

4:17

just hit some other stuff, maybe some Shogun. I

4:19

could try and sell you on three body problem or whatever. I want

4:21

to tell you a little story that this morning back

4:24

in town after weekend. So Jordan had

4:26

to re up on Greek yogurt and bananas. So

4:28

I hit up Gelsons as I want

4:31

to do. And I was

4:33

there and, you know, ringing up cashiers

4:35

like, do you need a bag? And I was like,

4:37

that's all right. Baller. I

4:39

don't need a bag for four bananas and some Greek

4:41

yogurt. I can do this. But

4:44

there was a bagger there and the cashier in the

4:46

bag or having a conversation. They just like pick up

4:48

after I've declined to poison the

4:50

planet any further. And they

4:52

were like, yes, so it's

4:54

this Godzilla show with Kurt

4:57

Russell and his son. And

5:01

it's called Godzilla minus one. And

5:04

I was like, I'm sitting there

5:06

and I got these bananas and I got this, this

5:08

Greek yogurt from my protein. And I'm just like, you

5:10

know what? It's gonna mind my own

5:12

fucking business. Why am I going to

5:14

jump in and be like, actually, actually, that's

5:16

Kong legacy you guys are talking about. Chris,

5:19

you have never, you have never

5:21

struck me as someone who would like hop in. There

5:23

are certain people who like hop in. I'll hop in

5:25

about lots of stuff. I'll hop in about sports all

5:27

day. I'll be like, oh, yeah, I saw that. The

5:30

TV is different. But I don't hop in. I

5:32

don't. I was just like, this is actually

5:35

like a great window into the

5:37

difference between how seriously stuff gets taken, maybe

5:39

in like our podcast and stuff like that,

5:41

where we're like, hold on, I got to

5:43

remember like the lineage and I got to

5:45

remember the chronology and the names and everything

5:48

versus like in

5:50

gen pop, people are just trying to have

5:52

a good time and they don't really care if it's Godzilla

5:54

or King Kong or if it's Kurt Russell. And I was

5:56

like, so for me to be like, actually,

5:58

Godzilla minus one is a parable. nuclear age

6:00

a lot of people thought it was actually is just

6:02

as astute about that age as Oppenheimer and it's like

6:04

no No, no, nobody wants to hear that, you know

6:07

Like it was just like very funny

6:09

to like do you ever have like when you're out

6:11

in the world and you're like all Week

6:13

long you're doing battle with van and Steve and

6:15

Joe me on midnight boys You

6:18

guys are like thrown around like what

6:20

would cyclops really do in this situation

6:22

or whatever? And then you get out

6:24

and you're at the barbershop. You're at a bar You're at

6:27

a restaurant you whatever and you're hearing like chatter about

6:29

like the same topic And you realize that everybody else

6:31

is free and we're the ones in the jail That

6:34

is my entire life. Like quite

6:37

literally went to the barbershop and

6:40

my barber goes Yo,

6:42

so what's your feelings on you know? Kendrick

6:44

future Drake give them to me and I'm

6:47

like Do you want like

6:49

my music critic opinions or my normie opinion? He's like not

6:51

give it to me like did it it off? It

6:54

inspired like an hour-long argument and

6:56

I was just like this isn't worth it, bro This

6:59

is like like similarly like women will be like,

7:01

oh, what's your podcast about? Let me look it

7:03

up I'm just like if you look up

7:05

my podcast or listen to 30 seconds of it I will

7:07

never talk to you ever right and they're like why and

7:10

I'm just like you don't need me

7:12

to hear me yelling at Three grown

7:14

men about how they didn't adapt Madeline

7:19

prior story correctly. No dog.

7:21

No Did

7:23

you feel like it's like the the knowledge winds up like are

7:25

you getting to the point? Because this is the reason why I

7:27

wanted to talk to you this week is you guys were talking

7:29

about X-Men 97 Which is this animated

7:31

series on Disney Plus that's been airing. I

7:34

Completely missed the original animated series Like I

7:37

think I knew it existed but I had

7:39

no real you in 90s in 97 I

7:42

was hanging out in Boston age like

7:44

I was in college like so I was 20

7:46

in 97 I

7:49

think so you weren't like Vans you weren't crushing X-Men

7:52

tape not then no, I mean

7:54

and also like to like I think you

7:57

guys talked about this a little bit about

7:59

some of the series and like even some

8:01

of like what was the one that

8:03

was the movie kind of that came on it would

8:05

only come on at like Three in the morning. Oh,

8:07

yeah, they were talking about cuz like I've seen that

8:09

one. It was like I want it Was

8:13

like and it was this weird type of

8:15

like show that was supposed to be a

8:17

show but never became one So it just

8:19

ended up as a long movie Yeah, I

8:21

mean this is like we started getting more

8:23

and more into like the way wagon trains

8:25

worked But back then in 97 I

8:29

don't think we had cable at the house I was living

8:31

at if we did it was only

8:33

to watch sports and then like

8:35

the in the home media rotation Was not

8:37

some bootleg copy of the X-Men animated series

8:39

So but you have to understand it's not

8:41

like I had it at my fingertips had

8:43

I had Disney Plus in 1997 Maybe

8:46

I would have watched the animated show. I doubt

8:48

it. But yeah, I was not I was not

8:50

watching it then This is like

8:52

a fun like that is a foundational text

8:55

to me also because like all

8:57

my uncles Have grown

8:59

up on like the Chris Claremont stuff

9:02

Star Trek everything so when the TV show came out

9:05

it was the one time where they're just like Oh

9:07

y'all watching that nerdy Disney shit. Let me put y'all

9:09

on and then it would be like X-Men and that

9:12

was the first time I'm like this

9:14

motherfucker got knives coming out of his hands.

9:16

Oh shit. Let's go to the Door

9:20

See my relationship to comics is different

9:22

like I feel like I'm

9:24

the dude who got to try heroin once

9:27

With comics and I like really really had

9:29

like an intense couple of summers with it

9:32

But I was able to then leave it like

9:34

behind and like move on not move on like

9:36

it's better for you to move on But like

9:39

I was able to like then go into other

9:41

things while still retaining some Baseline

9:43

of knowledge and like I know now like Andy

9:46

and he has such like a complete grasp of

9:48

like X-Men Narrative and I'll be like what

9:50

did cable do again? Didn't he go back in time?

9:52

But he had a disease but he was trying to

9:54

kill somebody who had an organic virus. Yeah, but here's

9:56

a thing Chris I feel like I had

9:58

a similar trajectory to you you know,

10:00

where it was just like it was comic book

10:03

comic books, I was coming to school in middle

10:05

school with the comic book t-shirts, whatever. And then

10:07

it was like the mixtape era. Where I was

10:09

like, yeah, I was like, Oh, shit, Lil Wayne

10:11

is popping. Oh, Jay Z, like did it at

10:13

Connie's and I'm like, overnight, I was

10:15

just like, dog, I'm getting no shotties with the comic

10:17

books. Yeah. So I kind of like tuck that in.

10:19

And did you get a lot of shotties with the

10:21

mixtapes? I feel you

10:23

know, I was cleaning up. But they were just

10:25

like, Hey, if he's gonna talk my ear off

10:27

of that Piff message boards, you guys are really

10:30

connecting. I mean, hey, all I

10:32

will say is that like the shot is just like,

10:34

you know what, I would much rather hear

10:37

him talk about like why I can't feel

10:39

my face versus like, what is cable doing

10:43

in the fucking future. But Nathan Summers is

10:46

inheritance and what that really is about. Yeah.

10:49

Unfortunately, with the ringer when I came over here, they

10:51

pulled me back in and for years I was

10:53

just like, Oh, shit, I get to be the guy

10:55

at the bars like that music y'all like kind of

10:57

whack and now I'm just like, oh, random people

10:59

coming to me at a party and they're just like,

11:03

everything you just said about X-Men 97 is fucking

11:05

bullshit. And I hate you. And I'm just like,

11:07

dog, you are blowing up my fucking spot. Is

11:10

it like X-Men 97? What's that? Okay,

11:13

so the reason why I'm bringing all this up is

11:16

that you guys were sort of,

11:19

if you listen to Midnight Boys, like

11:21

they'll have like these, basically like this roundtable

11:24

discussion between Charles and Van and then

11:26

it's, it's Jomie and Steve Wang and

11:28

as well and they will very

11:31

vociferously argue their feelings about whatever

11:33

given property they're talking about that

11:35

that week. Obviously, X-Men 97

11:38

came up and it was almost

11:40

like when you're

11:42

watching like a Paul Thomas

11:44

Anderson movie and the title doesn't get shown until

11:46

21 minutes in. I was like,

11:49

Charles hasn't talked yet. Because

11:51

Jomie and Stephen Van were like, this

11:53

is it. This is the original Coke

11:56

recipe. This is what

11:59

we do. this for, this is why we

12:01

get up every day, this is why we grind the

12:03

tape. It's because of feelings

12:05

like this. And Bam

12:07

was really actually talking about like,

12:10

this is about as close to

12:13

in my brain when I bring

12:15

comics to life in my brain and think about

12:17

it, you know, and if you daydream a storyline

12:20

from a comic book that this is it for

12:22

him. Yeah. And he goes and goes and goes and then Charles

12:25

is just like, just didn't hit for me, you

12:27

know, and I can hear the regret in

12:29

your voice because you, you sincerely did seem

12:31

happy that those guys were happy. Oh, that's

12:33

why like, usually, you know, I'm in there

12:36

immediately, like arguing and it's like, X-Men,

12:39

I think holds a special place, not only

12:41

in my heart, but if you're

12:43

of a certain generation, especially if you're black, like,

12:46

I don't even like go to the comic book

12:48

store anymore, but I will still pop in with

12:51

the X-Men just because I care about them so

12:53

much. Yes. And I knew that that is a

12:55

lot of what the conversation was going to be.

12:57

So usually I'm so excited to fucking step on

12:59

their shit and just be like, oh, no, no,

13:01

no, no, this is terrible. And I actually in

13:03

the moment was like, I feel

13:05

like an asshole having to like pop the

13:07

balloon. Well, and especially over this particular franchise,

13:09

right? Because it's not, it doesn't give you

13:11

any joy to be let down by something

13:14

that I think for a lot, I think

13:16

if all of us share one thing in

13:20

the watch, like in House of Arc, I

13:22

definitely feel like even fantasy

13:25

recognizes that like X-Men is the

13:27

one. Yes. Like X-Men is

13:30

the thing that probably was the

13:32

gateway drug. Maybe Spider-Man was because

13:34

like you look at it and you're like, that's a

13:36

teenager too. It's just like me or whatever. But like

13:38

X-Men is the one where you're like, this

13:40

feels very adult. This feels

13:42

very like emotionally fucked up. But

13:45

also the story is insane. And as

13:47

you keep reading the comics, you're like,

13:49

how, how am I watching this

13:51

thing about like clone Jean, you know,

13:54

coming back from Mr. Sinister and all

13:56

this stuff that's like pretty complicated for

13:58

a young reader and then pretty engaging

14:00

as you get older and return to them. Like

14:02

I'm not gonna, I do go back and read

14:04

some X-Men stuff and I'm like, this is pretty

14:06

out there. Like this is pretty awesome the way

14:08

that they're introducing these pretty

14:10

adult and or transgressive ideas

14:13

through this superhero team up. I

14:16

mean, I always envision the X-Men, the best X-Men

14:18

writers, like this is gonna sound like a joke,

14:20

it's not. That's where they get

14:22

their freak shit off. Like if you go back and you

14:24

read like the Claremont comic, you're like, dog

14:27

there's BDSM in this shit. It's

14:30

like people are cheating, people are falling in

14:32

and out of love. There's love triangles in

14:34

it. And I think the

14:37

reason X-Men resonates so much is

14:39

I could be like a black person

14:42

walking into a club and I might meet

14:45

a queer person or someone who's like

14:47

Latino or whatever. And if

14:49

you just start talking about X-Men nine times out of

14:51

10, they're like, oh shit, let me tell you about

14:53

my favorite X-Men maggot from the night. And I'm like,

14:56

immediately your friends, whether you agree or not. And

14:58

I think the thing that kind

15:02

of, and you can help me through this,

15:04

because I'm aging now. I'm officially

15:06

washed when I go out. The

15:08

20 year olds are like, you're fucking washed. Is

15:11

that I don't know who X-Men 97 is for,

15:14

or I know who it's for in terms of like, this

15:16

is a show that is

15:18

supposed to be for the

15:21

five, six, seven, eight year old in me at

15:23

31. And

15:26

that is just not an interesting artistic proposition to me

15:28

anymore, because I feel like we are coming out of

15:30

15 years where I was like,

15:33

oh shit, it's happening.

15:35

We're finally able to pull off all

15:38

the stuff. It's all gonna be great, all gonna be good.

15:41

And we're now kind of getting to a point

15:43

where X-Men 97, it's

15:47

like, oh, you guys are quite

15:49

literally verbatim just picking up where

15:52

this left off. The animation doesn't look

15:54

that great. The storylines, the way they

15:56

talk is exactly like the 90s show.

16:00

We talked about it in the minute, my

16:02

boys. I'm like, 90s cartoons are very much

16:04

like, all right, we're restating the problem every

16:06

five minutes because dumb kids can't pay attention

16:08

and they're still doing that. And I'm like,

16:11

dog, I can't get jiggy with this shit.

16:13

I'm watching show, I can't get jiggy with

16:15

this shit at 31. I'm sorry. So one

16:17

of the most pernicious and interesting things that's

16:19

happened with nostalgia is

16:21

obviously the creation of the nostalgia

16:24

industry. And to scale nostalgia, they've

16:27

basically compressed the time that

16:29

something becomes an object of

16:31

nostalgia for people. So, I mean, at

16:34

the Ringer and Grantland, like we were not above, like

16:37

we started noticing that people would

16:39

get really into the five-year anniversary

16:41

of something, the 10-year anniversary of

16:43

something because you widen the aperture

16:46

of people who can participate in

16:49

the celebration and the memory,

16:52

the memory exercise of being like, oh yeah, that's

16:54

when Interpol's record came out. You know what I

16:56

mean? We really,

16:58

I think probably because the way

17:00

that the internet just churns through

17:03

experience so much faster than the

17:06

world before the internet, it

17:08

already feels like Cowboy Carter's been out

17:10

for like six weeks, right? And it's

17:12

like, the shit leaked came out, had

17:15

a masterpiece cycle, a blowback cycle,

17:17

and now there's like an explainer

17:19

cycle, and it already feels like, I feel

17:21

like that record came out like Valentine's Day

17:23

or something. I feel like there

17:26

are so many quite literal, like

17:29

tangents of the Cowboy Carter because it's like the

17:32

cycle started even before that because all the

17:34

Diddy stuff started happening. It started with the

17:36

Super Bowl, right? And then we get the

17:38

Super Bowl, and then once the Diddy stuff

17:40

started happening, Jay gets in the news because

17:42

everybody's like, I don't know

17:44

why they're attacking each other, like let's get Jay out of

17:46

the cut. And then it was just

17:49

like Cowboy Carter comes out and they're just like, all

17:51

right, it's the country album. And then

17:54

it's like, there's a Jolene conversation. There

17:57

is a what is and isn't

17:59

country conversation. there's like, can we even

18:01

critique Beyonce conversation? And I'm like, this record

18:03

feels like it's been out for a year

18:05

already. And I don't even wanna talk about it.

18:08

And to your point, nostalgia,

18:10

because I was of the

18:12

age when I'm reading Grant Land, or

18:14

reading a bunch of websites where I'm like, oh,

18:16

this is so dope, five year anniversaries, 10 year

18:19

anniversaries, pitchfork goes crazy. Shout out Jeff Weiss, I

18:21

was reading his Mad Villain piece, all that shit,

18:23

I was like, I was growing up on that

18:25

stuff. And you probably feel it, us

18:27

working at the ringer, where it's like,

18:29

nostalgia almost doesn't do what it used to do anymore,

18:31

because we're burnt out on it so much. So that's

18:33

exactly where, the thing that's amazing about X-Men 97, so

18:36

like two weeks ago, I think like one board night,

18:38

I like went back and watched a couple of episodes

18:40

of the original series on Disney Plus, where it has

18:43

all the seasons right there. Now X-Men 97

18:45

is there, three episodes have come out,

18:47

I think maybe four. Yeah, three. And

18:50

it sounds like this will be a running thing for

18:52

Disney and for Marvel, it sounds like they've already,

18:54

the writer has left the show, but like they've

18:56

already got like two or three seasons kind of

18:58

like charted out. But what

19:01

you're saying is exactly right. To give it

19:03

to people if they're still listening, a non

19:05

superhero context, there's been

19:07

in the news that they're looking to reboot

19:09

the office. But the

19:12

office reboot in the X-Men

19:14

97 fashion would, I

19:17

mean, frankly, literally like just be

19:19

like the next day, Jim and Pam come

19:22

back to the office, and

19:25

all the characters are back at the office, and Michael

19:27

has come back to the office. And

19:29

it is not recognized as a, I mean, I

19:31

guess in the X-Men 97 thing, it's

19:33

like Charles Xavier is quote unquote dead. But

19:37

it's treated as a major event, but it's not

19:40

treated as like a timeline changing event. It's like,

19:42

we're just going along. It would just be

19:44

like, if you were like, you know what, I

19:46

love the office. I've watched the office five or six times all

19:49

the way through, I wish there was more office.

19:51

And then they were like, yeah, rather than try and

19:53

roll the dice and come up with

19:55

like a new take on the office, we're

19:57

just going to make more office. And that is literally.

20:00

what XM97 is. Now, it

20:02

has much different cultural context, but do you

20:04

think that's like a fair analogy? That is

20:06

such a fair analogy. And it was one

20:09

where I was just like, oh, I'm

20:11

the one on the outside of this party because

20:14

for a lot of people, that is

20:16

exactly actually what they want. Right. They

20:18

wanted that like, do not change this

20:20

at all. Just serve it up to

20:23

me exactly how it was in the

20:25

90s. But when I was watching

20:27

it was funny, we were arguing and I was like,

20:29

I don't know if you could like give

20:31

this to like, Andy's daughters and they'd be

20:33

like, cool. Well, they wouldn't

20:36

have the context clues, right?

20:38

Yeah. Unless they had binged

20:40

the first one. Because when

20:42

you watch the first one, okay, I'm going

20:44

to come into this by being like, I

20:46

kind of liked it in the sense of 97

20:48

in the sense of like

20:51

the story and the plot

20:53

points at least. And

20:56

even the characterizations, to some extent, were pretty

20:58

close to what's in my head when I

21:00

read the comics. Yeah. The

21:02

action is not the action is is,

21:04

I think, quite poor. And

21:07

it's like, it is

21:11

just like it is like a constant reverse

21:13

dopamine hit where you get you think you're

21:15

supposed to get to a set piece action

21:17

scene, and your adrenaline supposed to go up

21:19

because it's exciting. And instead, you're like all

21:21

these limitations of the animation that they're

21:24

doing. And I already have like kind of an animation

21:26

block anyway. So I find myself

21:28

really zoning out half like almost

21:30

one to channel surf while

21:32

that people are fighting even though

21:35

the scenarios, like in the

21:37

first episode, the X-Men come across

21:39

a Sentinel factory and for people who don't know

21:42

Sentinels are kind of like the X-Men like

21:44

red shirt like it's basically like the robotic

21:46

villains that attack the jobbers the ones that

21:49

they just got a disconnect. But it is

21:51

a pretty awesome depiction

21:55

of what Sentinels look like, like

21:58

in terms of scale to the X-Men now. Like

22:00

they are able to just punch out these

22:02

giant robots and it's pretty stupid, but the

22:04

actual moment where Trask is like beep and

22:07

Wakes all the sentinels up like yo, this is

22:09

kind of like this is what

22:12

happens in the comic books like is it literally

22:14

like a comic book moment come to life and

22:17

There are a few moments sprinkled out throughout the episodes where I

22:19

was like, it's kind of scratching the old

22:21

thing but the

22:24

idea of taking 97 era or 96 era animation and

22:30

96 era writing and I think you pointed

22:32

this out where it's like almost all of

22:34

the dialogue is characters restating Where

22:37

they are in the story and what has just

22:39

happened and what might happen or what even their

22:41

powers are sometimes They're like, I'm a rogue and

22:43

you can't touch me and I was like, alright,

22:45

right and it is the most like It

22:48

was like when they first were

22:50

like well We have to give voices

22:53

to these characters and they were like

22:55

well rogue is this like sassy Sudden

22:57

woman and gambit is a cajun gambler,

22:59

you know, like all these ideas about

23:01

these people like they have not iterated

23:03

one bit no in Almost

23:05

30 years right like whatever it's been so

23:08

it's pretty crazy to watch this and be like It

23:11

is almost like methadone like to go back

23:13

to my heroin joke It's like getting though

23:15

like, you know, it's the diluted

23:17

treatment for what you are actually

23:20

addicted to but at the same

23:22

time like there is something in

23:24

there that that it's almost Like

23:26

I'm like I admire Disney's ball

23:28

for doing it. But this seems like This

23:31

seems like kind of what they're just planning

23:33

on doing moving forward even

23:36

with like Fantastic Four where it's

23:38

like Because we've

23:40

never gotten a good adaptation of Fantastic Four.

23:42

They're just like well, how do

23:44

we get them? They're like dog nostalgia. We're going

23:46

back to when Jack and Stan made this shit,

23:48

right? We're gonna give you the beetle song We're

23:50

gonna give you this feeling and it's like that's

23:53

cool in the same way that like Deadpool Deadpool

23:56

3 is like holding all

23:58

of superhero cinema on its shoulders how

24:01

you were bringing you Jack and back would

24:04

bring Electra back merges going full tilt. Are

24:06

they bringing Electra back? And I mean, that's

24:08

the rumors like Jennifer Garner Capital One venture

24:10

card. Oh, wow. And that's where

24:12

we're at with nostalgia where I'm like, yo, like I'm a

24:15

31 year old man. It's you

24:18

can't keep hitting that tap into I'm, I'm

24:21

a little not only burnt out sometimes I'm

24:23

like, this is just it

24:26

makes me feel weird. Now it makes me feel

24:28

kind of gross. And it's like this year for

24:31

TV and movies to me, has been so

24:33

great because they've run out.

24:36

And it's like, oh, we would have

24:38

never talked about Shogun on midnight boys, right in another

24:40

year. And now it's like, damn,

24:42

we got Invincible X for 90 cent. Let's meet Shogun

24:44

in here. Yeah, do that. And I'm like, that's

24:47

why just it's not working. Well, okay,

24:49

so I think that

24:51

that's a really interesting place to

24:53

jump off of though, because there

24:55

are times when you're into something

24:57

when you're, you're a fan of something, where

25:00

you kind of will have this attitude or

25:03

it's like, I really just want

25:05

more of this, right? Like, I think when you're younger, the

25:07

cool thing about being younger is that like,

25:09

you're voracious. And if you're really into culture,

25:11

if you're, I remember those mixtape days too.

25:14

And it was just like, it

25:16

literally felt like every Wednesday, someone

25:18

pushed the medium forward. You

25:20

know, you would get a Wayne tape, or you would

25:23

get like just a gangster girls, and

25:25

find out about three dudes you'd never heard of

25:27

before. These are like mixing series is from like

25:29

the aughts. And you would be

25:31

like, right, I

25:33

feel rap expanding right

25:35

before my ears and before my eyes, like

25:37

I can feel the guys tweak what

25:40

the fuck this art form is like, in

25:42

almost real time way. And it was such a

25:44

thrill to be a part of that, like even

25:46

as a fan. And then

25:48

to feel like both as consumers, but

25:51

also as creators, people have

25:53

been like, let's hit stop. Let's

25:56

not take any chance. chances

26:00

by fucking up, you know?

26:02

Like let's not take any chances

26:04

by doing another Thanos snap, you know?

26:06

Or anything that might upset people

26:08

or change the way people relate to this

26:11

stuff or feel about it. And

26:13

we'll draw a line and what

26:15

we'll do now is color in

26:17

the pictures we've already drawn, you know? So

26:21

we'll go back and we'll, while these people

26:23

are all ambulatory and Hugh Jackman can still

26:26

gain weight, muscle mass to do this, we're

26:28

going to go back and do that. We're going to go back and

26:30

instead of doing a new X-Men thing where we'll

26:32

have to answer all these questions about like, well, what does

26:35

this mean for the live action films that are supposed to

26:37

be coming? And what does this mean for the MCU timeline

26:39

and the secret timeline and all this stuff? What

26:41

if we just gave people literally the, the,

26:44

with a plunger of what

26:46

they were watching when they were children? Because that's

26:49

what they're watching anyway, what they were watching when

26:51

they were children. But yeah, but it's also, it's

26:53

this thing where it's like all

26:56

these companies are speaking to the

26:59

vocal minority, like in Star Wars, where it

27:01

was just like, after the

27:04

fucking last Jedi hit, it's just

27:06

like the Clone Wars audience, the

27:08

Filoni audience, that one who was

27:10

tapped in there, like we watch

27:12

everything. Star Wars is like,

27:14

all right, you guys are going to lead

27:16

this. And now it's happening with the MCU,

27:18

where it's like, oh, we're no longer a

27:20

product for everyone. This

27:22

isn't something like, oh, yo, there's a new

27:24

Iron Man boys, like we're rolling out. It's

27:26

like, we're talking to the people who are

27:29

going to get excited that Jennifer Garner Electra

27:31

is coming back. Right. And I'm just

27:33

like, that is just a smaller segment, which

27:35

is like fine. But it's like, as, as

27:37

the pie gets smaller, I'm like, why

27:40

should I be interested in this anymore? And

27:43

that's the thing that like on the Midnight

27:45

Boys, we even, we have conversations about like,

27:47

yo, what is fandom anymore? Is Shogun? Is

27:50

Monkey Man? Is all of these things? Because

27:52

it feels like even with Barbie and Barbenheimer

27:54

last year, I was like, we

27:57

have to talk about this stuff in a

27:59

way that like when we. first started the show not that

28:01

long ago with Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It was like,

28:03

we got WandaVision, we got Falcon, we got

28:05

Blue Knight, we got all this stuff. There's

28:08

no time for anything else. And

28:10

now I'm like, this is the

28:12

quietest it's been. And

28:14

I feel rejuvenated. Well, maybe because everybody's clearing out

28:16

for Deadpool, like you said, and also because a

28:19

couple of these franchises are in soft

28:21

reset mode. So the post

28:23

Downey era of Marvel has had these

28:25

missteps. So they're like probably like, okay,

28:28

how do we basically like clear our

28:30

books to start again

28:32

with Fantastic Four and XM whenever we decide

28:34

to do that? That's like basically the chip

28:37

that they have to play. But

28:39

the same can be said for Star Wars for

28:41

as excited as I am for Acolyte and especially

28:43

Andor season two. Those are

28:45

both within the context of this of

28:47

Star Wars historical fiction, right? Like they're

28:50

there, they're just going to be playing with I

28:52

mean, I guess like nobody's really like seen a

28:54

ton of stuff that

28:56

during the period that Acolyte is set, almost

28:58

like there's video games or something like that.

29:01

But like, there's not a lot of like

29:03

common knowledge about like what the pre prequels

29:05

era of Star Wars was like. And

29:08

that's that's that's a pretty cool window

29:10

to look through. And and or

29:12

is and or it's almost barely Star Wars in

29:14

some ways or transcends Star Wars to me. But

29:17

they still are like,

29:20

I don't know what we're gonna do about whether

29:22

this does the calendar ever flip

29:24

forward. I mean, when

29:27

they're like, oh, we're doing a Mandalorian movie,

29:29

I was like, oh, this is y'all. Yeah,

29:31

kind of like, all right, we this gives

29:33

us at least two,

29:35

three more years to figure out what is going

29:37

to happen. Because like, even with they're

29:39

like, oh, we'll bring Daisy ring

29:41

at that time, like, excuse

29:44

me, what? It's like when we're

29:46

talking about nostalgia, I'm like, is there

29:48

even enough has enough time passed for there

29:50

to be like the Force Awakens? Yeah, isn't

29:53

Daisy really young to become Carrie

29:55

Fisher in the sequels? Yes, yeah. You know

29:57

what I mean? Like, where she's

29:59

presumed going to be the connective tissue

30:01

that goes from the sequels to whatever these

30:03

next set of movie or movies are gonna

30:06

be. It's a bit odd. And that is

30:08

why it's like when people probably hear like

30:10

my exhaustion on the Midnight Boys, I

30:12

still have so much love for all this stuff, but

30:15

it is like, oh, the

30:17

corporate machinations of this, even when we were

30:19

talking, I think big states are really, really

30:21

good. Kind of like metaphor because

30:23

if you think about it, Wayne

30:25

was super interesting when

30:28

he's dropping dedication, droughts, whatever. It's like, oh,

30:30

I'm on Datpiff. I'm on live mixtapes. I'm

30:32

on all this shit. And

30:35

I remember when Carter III dropped, it was a moment

30:37

when I was like, oh, it's okay. Like

30:39

I felt it. I was just like, oh,

30:41

he's in industry now. And then Drake came

30:43

and then Nikki came. And I'm like, it's

30:45

just a different proposition. When the clips, you

30:48

know, when the clips are dropping mixtapes, you're just like, yo,

30:50

Hell House no Fury never coming to all this shit. It's

30:53

a different proposition when Pusha T signs the good music

30:55

and all of a sudden, It's like every 18 months

30:58

to two years, he puts out an album that's

31:00

really good. It just doesn't

31:02

have the like breathless

31:05

buzz. Yes. And the sort of for

31:08

people who don't know what we're talking about, like clips,

31:11

you know, you know from Grindon, but

31:13

they had like obviously dozens of classics

31:15

and incredible albums since then. Clips

31:18

have had a point where they were like a major label purgatory

31:20

and they were supposed to be releasing the

31:22

long awaited follow up to Lord

31:24

Willen and it had been

31:26

done and all this stuff. And they

31:29

were in this contract label, Hell

31:32

and started putting out mixtapes called We Got

31:34

It For Cheap, volume one and two that

31:37

were basically like, we can't really get our shit

31:39

out there any other way. So what we're going

31:41

to do is rap over basically

31:44

the best 12 beats that are out right

31:46

now. They were the

31:48

ones that were obsessed with and those two

31:50

mixtapes are absolute stone cold classics and I

31:52

put volume two up against like any rap

31:54

record. But that was clips, that was 50.

31:57

That was way, it was Gucci, it's GZ.

32:00

And it's like you saw, like it was a little

32:02

early for me, so I come in around the tail

32:04

end, and I'm like... It's really hard

32:06

to think of what a comic book analogy to, we

32:08

got it for cheap vibes, you would be... But

32:11

it's like, I mean, I'm young enough to... I guess that would

32:13

be dead full, I don't even know, like I mean, I guess

32:15

it would be like, what if I took this character that people

32:17

don't really know about, and like just imbued him

32:19

with my own personality, but like that's maybe giving

32:21

Ryan Reynolds too much credit. It's just, it is,

32:23

we're at the point where I'm just like, oh,

32:26

the mixtapes are over now, everybody's

32:28

dropping major label album, and they're like, alright,

32:30

I gotta have one for the shoddies, I

32:32

gotta have one for the club. Yeah, they

32:34

make the formulaic nature of it. Cause I'll

32:36

ask you, do you even think in 2024,

32:38

I don't know who is the Robert Downey

32:40

Jr equivalent, but would

32:42

Kevin Feige even take a chance at this point

32:46

on like restarting, or helping

32:48

an actor who had that

32:50

much baggage? I'm like, not

32:52

really. I don't think the rightly

32:55

or wrongly, like without getting into that, like, I

32:57

don't really know if the fans would let it

32:59

happen, right? Cause like, the

33:02

way in which Downey was perceived

33:05

during his like time in the wilderness, like

33:07

was a lot more like, bad

33:09

boy rebel fuck up than was this

33:12

problematic, or like, did anybody get hurt

33:14

in the process of like this dude

33:16

having, you know, his drug

33:19

sojourn. Yeah. And when you think about

33:21

like some of the people out

33:23

there who would be prospects for

33:25

such a rehabilitation by Kevin Feige,

33:27

it's like highly unlikely that Shia

33:29

LaBeouf would be fucking re-Richard. And I'm not

33:32

saying that he should do that, but it's

33:34

just like, even taking a chance on like,

33:36

it's so different. Yeah. On an actor who

33:38

you're just like, when Downey

33:40

was announced, I was like, Robert Downey Jr, what

33:42

the fuck? Yeah. Like, but it's like, I don't

33:44

feel that way about any of their announcements anymore.

33:47

When the Fantastic Four announcements came out, I was

33:49

just like, I was like, okay, sure. Like, it

33:51

wasn't even anything to get mad or excited about.

33:53

I'm like, this is very

33:55

good brand management. Well, it was so

33:58

strange because Andy and I would joke about it. fantastic

34:00

forecasting rumors because Andy gets most

34:03

of his culture news through his

34:05

Facebook feed and so

34:07

he just gets like comicsbook.net recommended post

34:09

on like who would be like in

34:11

the cast and he would send them

34:13

to me as screenshots and

34:17

it was really funny because like

34:19

when they actually did announce that cast it

34:22

was like more or less like chalk

34:24

it was like yeah Pedro Pascal instead

34:26

of Krasinski or whoever like Adam Driver

34:29

but for the most part like that's that's

34:31

Kirby have been attached to that role for a really long

34:33

time and like Joseph Quinn has been getting like a lot

34:35

of really big roles and it was awesome that Eben

34:38

got the thing but like it's

34:41

like it's like what we thought and then

34:43

you're like oh wait they haven't even written

34:45

or shot a frame of this movie and

34:47

in my mind we've been talking about and this

34:50

has been around for like the

34:52

better part of 18 months if not two years. I

34:54

mean even Eben getting the thing you're just like it

34:56

used to be like oh they

34:59

plucked Chris Pratt out of Parks and Rec

35:01

and well the crazy thing would have been

35:03

to give Eben Reed. Yes but now it's

35:05

just like you're worried because you see you

35:08

see all these other actors departing like Thunderbolts

35:11

and like all this other shit and now

35:13

it's flipped where you're just like oh this

35:15

actor is in an MCU movie they're gonna

35:17

be a star now you're like

35:20

I hope this doesn't fuck up there.

35:23

Like that's where we're at and I

35:25

think that's even where I'm at emotionally

35:27

just with superheroes in general with even

35:29

the James Gunn Superman stuff where

35:32

I'm like it feels like

35:34

he's gonna go back to that

35:36

nostalgic Superman feeling. Right. Look at

35:38

how transformative comic books are. A

35:40

Man Could Fly did all this

35:43

stuff and I'm just

35:45

so jaded off all. Well and he's probably

35:47

making a bet that culture

35:50

is ready to pivot towards

35:52

sincerity. Are we not there already? Well

35:54

that's actually not a bad bridge into Gerard

35:56

you know what I mean like. But

36:00

I want to just say like everything

36:02

that I get the vibe from the

36:05

way that James Gunn talks about Superman

36:07

is gonna

36:09

be probably something that I really admire the

36:11

bones of and I'm like it's gonna probably

36:13

be like Mechanically a really well-told story and

36:16

I'm excited to see what he does with it I don't

36:18

really have like a much of an

36:20

affinity for Superman, but I'm interested But

36:24

it's it's interesting that he's like Yeah,

36:26

like this character symbolizes

36:28

something very important and

36:31

sacred and those things are doing

36:34

the right thing selflessness, etc,

36:36

etc, and I'm like Wonder

36:38

if this is gonna hit like I'm sure

36:41

it'll do really well No, it's probably the

36:43

right gamble, but even like those Guardians movies

36:45

I'm like, I think the thing about the

36:47

Guardians movies as they continued that James

36:49

Gunn is one of the

36:51

most talented directors to touch those MCU

36:54

movies But as the

36:56

sincerity increased across it

36:58

became more about like friendship and animal rights

37:00

and like Muppet baby shit No, like it's like

37:02

I like those movies, but there was a

37:04

level where I'm just like I'm

37:07

okay. Like there was the first Guardians. I liked it so

37:09

much. I was like there was a little

37:11

acid on that shit Yeah, it was a

37:13

little like he still had that very much

37:15

like rebel thing about his film

37:17

making where it's like All right, it's a talking

37:19

raccoon, but we're gonna move on to just like

37:22

nobody thinks this is gonna work Yes, right. Like

37:24

no one's ever heard of these people. I remember

37:26

that was like when we were podcasting about that

37:28

back then It was like this is the biggest

37:30

heat check. They're just like literally like playing roulette

37:32

with Star Wars Marvel Kit titles. Yes, and just

37:35

being like what about these motherfuckers? What about this

37:37

raccoon and they would just they can be like

37:39

we'll get a billion out of anything right now

37:41

Like we can dial up a box office monster

37:43

out of any combination of words If it says

37:45

if it has the Marvel flip page in the beginning,

37:48

but here's the thing if I see, you know

37:51

Clark Kent crying over dead crypto.

37:53

I'm gonna be like yo,

37:55

come on, bro. I'm done. I'm done with this

37:57

Let's like because I just I

38:00

think it's happening in pop music. I have I think

38:02

it's happening in movies where it's like the therapy speak

38:06

Sincerity like there's

38:08

so much division in the world y'all Let

38:11

us believe in humanity again by

38:14

selling you these big-ass IP characters, and I'm

38:16

just like alright This

38:20

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a let. let's let's let's talk about

39:59

drug You always bring me on here

40:01

to talk about Gerard. I'm so honored. I'm

40:05

deeply fascinated with this person, even

40:08

if I don't know if I love watching television

40:10

about his personal life. And it really is.

40:12

It's really just down to the fact that

40:15

at this point I feel like Throckhart

40:18

Michaels' project, and you know obviously if

40:20

you watch for Nathaniel, which was the

40:22

Emmy Award-winning stand-up quote-unquote special

40:24

that he did, directed

40:27

by Bo Burnham, that one was right, you

40:29

know that he has been going through a time

40:31

of great personal upheaval and that his comedy,

40:34

so to speak, has really

40:36

now become more of a

40:38

confessional but also

40:41

performance of his self on

40:44

stage where he directly communicates

40:46

with the audience about literally whatever's been happening

40:49

with him up to that hour.

40:52

In the Throckhart Michael reality show,

40:54

he's honestly looking at text messages

40:57

and waiting for responses from a

41:00

very significant rapper and informing

41:02

the audience of like a minute by minute of

41:05

his emotional state in his love life. So he's

41:08

got priors with Nathaniel. He's obviously very interested

41:10

in the public consumption

41:14

of his incredibly private

41:16

moments, which his project seems to be

41:19

like there are no private moments, right?

41:21

And not only not private, like I'm

41:24

always on my phone and I'm always

41:27

streaming or documenting it. I

41:29

have like a professional camera crew living

41:31

with me in a hotel in West Hollywood

41:33

to film my grinder

41:35

dates but also film like the state of

41:38

my relationship with my mother, which

41:40

I narrate to two of my like

41:42

childhood friends and his

41:45

kind of like wandering through the world as he

41:47

tries to figure out who he is and who

41:49

will love him and who he's gonna love and

41:51

all these things

41:53

are really interesting. Did

41:55

you find the show interesting? I

41:57

found the swing interesting. I

42:00

don't know if I like this first episode and I

42:02

still I laughed a lot but before

42:04

I did get into my thoughts, I wanted to pick your brain

42:06

a little bit because I

42:08

realized that this thing about this show that I

42:10

was bumping up against is I'm like What

42:13

I enjoyed about curbed your enthusiasm when I was

42:15

a teenager growing up is like I was probably

42:17

part of the last generation That became

42:19

a Seinfeld fan Not because I sought it out

42:21

But because I was at my grandparents house and

42:24

it's like Seinfeld's the only thing fucking on is

42:26

a lot of it Just crushing tape and then

42:28

it's like you learn about Larry David and you

42:30

get hbo and you're like I'm just gonna watch

42:32

curb your enthusiasm and i'm still so young so

42:34

I don't I'm not

42:36

i'm learning about the lore i'm reading about

42:38

the lore, but I have a certain Distance

42:43

from all of the players, which helps

42:45

me enjoy it where this Carmichael reality

42:47

show is very much You're not watching

42:49

curb and you're like I know all

42:51

about super dave playing funkhouser or whatever

42:53

Like I learn about a lot of

42:55

that stuff later like you learn about

42:57

Richard Lewis after the fact, right? Okay,

42:59

where it's with this show i'm like,

43:01

oh this is curb But

43:03

it's like these are your like these are people

43:06

that I was writing about podcasting about writing reviews

43:08

about I know way too much about tyler the

43:10

creator. Yes, we're almost this. I think we're the

43:12

same age where it's like You

43:14

make an entire first episode About

43:17

tyler the creator curving you Is

43:20

just some shit that i'm not i'm just like

43:22

no So that's obviously going to be the big

43:24

headline takeaway from this episode. I want to ask

43:26

you really quick. Did you? Is

43:29

it weird for you watching this because these aren't your

43:31

Contemporaries in the same way with like with curb you're

43:33

way closer to larry dave in seinfeld and all that

43:35

stuff than I am Do you see

43:37

you you look at me and you think that's a

43:39

guy who's way closer to larry david's age than tyler

43:41

the creator's age I think If

43:45

we're being real So you're just like you're

43:47

watching this. Holy shit. That is so sobering.

43:49

But yeah, okay Like your connection with curb

43:51

like did you ever start 12 years older

43:53

than dron? And I am more

43:56

than 12 years younger than larry david. Yes

43:58

Culturally speaking. Okay Who do you think you're

44:00

closer to? Larry David. Larry David. I

44:03

think. Yeah. And

44:05

that makes the equation different for you watching the

44:07

show. For me watching Carmichael, I'm like, I'm about

44:09

to drop some shit off. Like the shit that's

44:11

happening in this weird is like, yeah,

44:13

I wasn't outside like that. Like I didn't even understand

44:15

that that's what's happening. I'm like, that's what makes it

44:17

hard. Right. I think so this

44:19

episode is basically like an introduction to

44:22

the concept of the show, which is

44:24

that Drod feels more comfortable telling

44:26

the truth to the camera than he does.

44:29

Like basically in private, right? So he is

44:31

going to document his private life as

44:33

if it was a TV show. I had the drug Carmichael

44:35

reality show and explore like

44:38

the quote unquote, I

44:40

don't know, like objective truth of any moment, which

44:44

several people come through the episode,

44:46

both like in passing, like in

44:48

like grinder dates. And

44:50

then also as like clearly like

44:52

close people in his life. I mentioned the childhood

44:55

friends, an anonymous character

44:57

who refuses to be seen is

44:59

played pretty obviously by Bo Burnham. Yes.

45:03

Bo Burnham six five didn't know that. That's

45:05

why I was just like, take off the mask,

45:08

dude. I don't like I know you're Bo Burnham

45:10

bro. Like come on. And I, you know, with

45:12

with him, it's like, and I also know Bo

45:14

Burnham just from hearing him talk about like his

45:16

feelings about social media and the way

45:18

that content is created and consumed

45:20

now that I

45:23

assume both that he does

45:25

not want to be a part of this, but

45:27

also desperately wants to be a part of this

45:29

to comment on what the this of this is.

45:33

Yes. But yes, like obviously it would have

45:35

just been hilarious if Bo Burnham was at the

45:37

door when he

45:39

he answers it. So it essentially

45:41

documents this first episode and I believe it's

45:43

six or seven episodes. I can't remember how

45:45

long it is, but I read maybe eight.

45:47

Okay. So essentially like Dr.

45:51

Carmichael's in LA for the Emmys

45:54

after doing like a bunch of promo for Nathaniel and

45:56

then comes back to Los Angeles for the Emmys. He's

45:58

doing some standups. gigs here and there.

46:01

And the main narrative is that

46:04

he has in the weeks

46:06

prior declared his feelings of

46:08

romantic interest in Tyler the Creator,

46:10

who is also his like really,

46:12

really, really close friend. Yes. And

46:15

has basically only heard back from

46:17

Tyler, a real like

46:21

snappy come back six second voice message.

46:23

That's like, you're a bitch, if I

46:25

remember correctly. Yeah, the most Tyler the

46:28

Creator response. And then hasn't really heard

46:30

from him otherwise. And like is tried to get him to

46:32

go to the Emmys with him. And I think

46:35

Tyler's like, I'm busy that

46:37

night or something. And okay,

46:41

I guess I asked you, did you think that

46:44

how much of the of this relationship that

46:47

we're seeing on screen

46:49

is quote unquote for cameras, because I think

46:51

it's very purposeful that Carmichael named

46:54

this show reality show, you know, like,

46:56

yes, it's not the drug Carmichael show.

46:58

It's not my

47:00

life and my love with drug Carmichael.

47:03

It's the reality show, which, you

47:05

know, if you watch enough reality

47:07

television, there are really easy and

47:10

clear ways that they assemble a narrative out of

47:12

however many hours of footage they get. Yeah. And

47:15

I was curious whether or not you thought that the

47:17

Tyler thing was like

47:20

a really wrong, credible moment of real life

47:23

that was being captured or something that was

47:25

being performed by two people

47:27

who are hyper conscious of

47:29

how their families thinks about them. So

47:32

the reason why I was like, what

47:35

the show, the show is kind of going out of

47:37

its way to make it

47:39

seem like it's a raw and emotional moment. Well,

47:43

probably because I have music critic brain probably because I was

47:45

like, when Tyler

47:48

drops Flower Boy, which

47:50

is the first album that

47:53

he's starting to hint about

47:55

his sexual journey about, you

47:58

know, potentially just not being a

48:00

straight rapper, he's never confirmed it, but he's using

48:02

different pronouns or whatever. Carmichael was

48:04

a part of that project. They have

48:06

this video, everything. I

48:08

already know that, so I'm like, they've been friends

48:11

for a while. That project comes out forever ago.

48:13

You have Igor, you have Nathaniel, you have everything.

48:15

So I'm like, the

48:18

possibility that they filmed this,

48:20

that this is when he's saying I

48:22

had feelings for you, like just timeline-wise

48:24

for me, I'm just like, because

48:27

this is supposed to be when he wins his

48:29

Emmy for Nathaniel. So I'm starting to do the

48:31

math. That's right too, right?

48:33

Yeah, so I'm just like, I don't know, this

48:35

like lines up or whatever. And

48:37

then it was like, as they start talking.

48:39

You're like, is this the sacred timeline? Yeah,

48:42

I was like, the punch lines are almost

48:45

too good at certain points. Like

48:47

when the guy, like they're having this

48:50

big moment and Tyler's essentially like

48:52

doing the thing. He's like, you're like a brother

48:54

to me. And then the food comes in. It's

48:57

the funniest thing, but I'm like, that's actually too

48:59

funny. Like this is the perfect time for

49:01

the food to arrive. And then at one point,

49:03

like, I think Gerard

49:06

goes to Tyler, he's like, so

49:08

what are you seeking? And Tyler goes, in

49:10

life or on this plate? I'm like, that's just too good of a

49:12

punch line. And I

49:15

am sure that that conversation did happen.

49:17

I'm sure that like all of this

49:19

did, but as someone who's

49:21

like worked at music magazines, I know

49:23

how controlling Tyler the Creator is, how

49:25

selective he is. Like he's

49:27

only doing things that he wants to do

49:30

that he believes in artistically. And I'm just

49:32

like, would Tyler the

49:34

Creator agree to just be on any

49:36

reality show or would he agree to

49:38

be on the trollish reality show that's

49:40

like, hey, remember that time I revealed

49:42

that I had deep feelings for you,

49:44

Tyler? We're going to recreate that for

49:46

this fake reality show come through. Like

49:49

Nathan Fielder style, right? Yes, and I'm like,

49:51

that's the project that Tyler would be like,

49:54

absolutely. The sincere project of like, hey, I'm trying

49:56

to work through what it means to be a

49:58

queer man and this and that. I did it

50:00

off. I was like, fuck all that

50:02

shit. The minute it's just like, oh, I

50:04

get to embarrass you on screen. Tyler Grader

50:07

gets to curve Gerard and fart. Hell

50:09

yeah, let's do it. It felt like,

50:11

I don't know if you watch Adults Wears Loiter Squad. I'm

50:13

like, this is some Loiter Squad

50:16

ass odd future humor

50:18

baked into, like you said, a

50:21

Nathan Fielder-esque type box. I

50:24

was thinking a lot during that scene,

50:26

which is really incredible to watch. So

50:28

Tyler comes in and like, Tyler,

50:31

I got to say, if he's quote unquote

50:34

acting or not, it's a great

50:36

performance because he's almost better than

50:39

Gerard, naturalistically. Well, yeah. And there is

50:41

almost something really interesting where you could

50:43

definitely see what Gerard sees in Tyler.

50:45

And you can see why Tyler kind

50:47

of holds back a little bit. And

50:50

because of what he's holding back, that makes it

50:52

all the more attractive to Gerard. There's

50:56

something just like you said, so perfectly timed

50:58

about like, even like the way he just

51:01

destroys the food that he gets. Then

51:05

like, Gerard offers him some of his food

51:07

and he's like, I don't want anything to

51:10

do with anything that's happening in that bowl,

51:12

which of course is also like a metaphorical

51:14

rejection of Gerard anyway. But

51:17

I did think that there was like

51:20

a real like moment

51:22

of magic when Gerard's

51:24

like, you still haven't answered me. Like

51:26

we're talking about talking about it, but

51:29

like even in talking about it, you still haven't

51:31

been like, I don't

51:33

like you that way. Or I

51:36

don't know how to feel about that.

51:38

He's just like, and Tyler is just like,

51:41

I don't know what you want me

51:43

to say. Like first of all, like, and then he gets,

51:45

that's when he goes into like, you're like my brother and

51:48

like, I wouldn't ever like jeopardize that. And

51:51

I'm going to call you and then like, as he's leaving, he's like, I'm going

51:53

to call you next week and I believe him. But while

51:55

I was watching that scene, it was reminding me of

51:57

like, early real world

51:59

seasons. You know, where

52:02

that was a generation of people that did not

52:05

know what it was like to be on camera and did not

52:07

know what it was going to be like when they were broadcast

52:09

out to the world. And there is

52:11

a real

52:14

lack of self-consciousness both in terms of

52:16

like their personality being

52:20

projected, like how they're behaving themselves, but also how

52:22

they look. Like they're just like, hey, it's the

52:24

morning I didn't put my makeup on yet. You

52:26

know what I mean? Like, this is like how

52:28

I'm chilling out like at this house. And

52:32

over the years, if you watch real world,

52:34

but if you watch really any long run

52:36

reality show or any reality show that's post

52:38

a certain period, people are going

52:40

on those reality shows knowing full well what they're signing

52:42

up for. In fact, they're more thinking

52:44

about what the benefits are going to be of

52:46

going on those reality shows after the fact. Like

52:48

I didn't think Top Chef is like that sometimes

52:50

where it's like winning Top Chef seems

52:52

real fucking hard, a little bit random.

52:55

And I don't even know if it's that lucrative.

52:57

But what happens to your career if you've won Top Chef is

52:59

like you're kind of like made. Oh, I can

53:02

get a little social media agent. And I can

53:04

get your restaurants will always have like the kind

53:06

of like, when I go to cities, I've never

53:08

been to before. And I hear about like, so

53:10

and so from Top Chef as a restaurant here.

53:12

I'm like, I'll go check that out. I mean,

53:14

isn't that what we do for a living even

53:16

podcasting? It was like we were both writers before

53:18

this. And it was like when I was a

53:21

writer, I had like people who enjoyed my writing.

53:23

But it wasn't like, hey, yo, Charles, like let's

53:25

talk. Well, your podcast, it's like, oh, this

53:27

is a different thing where it's just like, oh,

53:29

now people like want to talk to me about

53:31

podcasting in a way is like, if I wrote

53:34

the same thing down, right, I just published it.

53:37

Like, I don't go fuck about that. And I think the

53:39

genius of this is like, Gerard

53:41

knows Tyler. And it's

53:43

like, odd future for like the people

53:46

who don't know it's like odd future comes out at

53:48

a time when it's like, they are

53:50

very in your face, very misogynistic,

53:52

homophobic lyrics. But the grand irony

53:54

is like the biggest artists

53:56

that come out of that collective all end up

53:58

being and they're, they're big. basically, edgelords.

54:01

Edgelords? Like, they were doing

54:03

a very post-M&M type thing. Everybody

54:06

of our generation is supposed to be

54:08

sensitive and completely speaking the language of

54:13

acceptance, and we're going to make jokes

54:15

about it. And it's like, with Frank

54:18

Ocean, Frank Ocean was very much like, oh,

54:20

not only am I gay, but a lot

54:23

of my music is going to be interrogating

54:25

this. And you had artists

54:27

like Sid, their DJ, who had turned

54:29

into the internet, all this stuff. But with Tyler,

54:31

I was in rooms

54:33

before where people were just like, oh,

54:36

Tyler, Tyler, well, he's gay or he's bisexual and

54:38

we should do a certain thing. I'm like, no, no, no,

54:40

no. Tyler's actually never said anything about

54:42

that. He's the most withholding. And

54:44

that's what is the genius of that scene,

54:46

where it's like, even when Tyler

54:48

is making music about his love for

54:50

a woman or his love potentially for

54:53

a man or this or that, there's

54:55

a level of remove where

54:57

he's never going to give you the thing you

54:59

want. He's never going to

55:01

give you the New Yorker profile

55:03

that's like, here's who I am.

55:06

Someone's following me, blah, blah, blah. There's

55:08

always that level of, ha, ha, ha,

55:10

fuck you prankster shit about it. Right.

55:13

Which when he walks into the hotel room,

55:15

he's like, I've invited orgies that had less

55:17

people than this. Or like I've

55:19

had orgies that had less people than like the size of

55:21

the camera crew there. I guess my point about the real

55:24

world stuff was that even if it's a sincere moment, I feel

55:27

like Tyler and draw

55:29

know how to be on camera.

55:31

Yes. And I think that there

55:33

is still like a part of me that expects

55:36

people to be like, what the

55:38

fuck is going on? Why are all these cameras here?

55:40

And I maybe it's just a time in the in

55:43

the world where that is no longer a

55:45

phenomenon. It's just to have cameras

55:47

constantly pointed at you. And maybe

55:49

these guys and drive specifically has

55:51

created a reality in which this

55:55

isn't like I'm taking a break from

55:57

my lucrative stand up career. to

56:01

do like a little bit of a behind the scenes thing

56:03

about who I really am. Yeah. The who I

56:05

really am behind the scenes stuff has

56:08

way subsumed his comedy career to the extent that

56:10

I don't even know if you would really call

56:12

him a comedian anymore. I mean, he does stand

56:14

up but it's like that. It's like what we

56:16

see on the show. Like when you usually if

56:19

you watch like comedians doing their podcasts on YouTube

56:21

or whatever, like most of it is

56:23

about like there are some funny stories and stuff like

56:25

that. But a lot of it is about the mechanics

56:27

of comedy. A lot of it is about the business

56:29

of doing comedy. Or just reacting to shit on the

56:31

internet. And then when you watch their stand

56:33

up, you're like, this

56:35

is pretty basic stand up. This is pretty

56:37

like the way I remember stand up from

56:39

like 80s and 90s. Like you

56:41

would first see an HBO special. They're going out

56:43

there and be like, I'm wearing a black shirt

56:46

and black pants. And my wife is crazy. And

56:48

it's like that still is comedy for like 95%

56:50

of people out there. And

56:53

so it's fascinating to see Gerard have

56:55

a career where the

56:57

whole project is self. It's not like

56:59

this is a side hustle or a

57:02

left turn from anything. Like the left

57:04

turn is the

57:06

map now. You know what I mean?

57:08

Can I say the most Andy thing

57:10

ever? Sure. I might be completely misremembering

57:12

this. My brain is now Swiss cheese

57:14

off the LA weed. But it's like

57:16

fucking Mark Marin and I think Gerard

57:18

went on Mark Marin. Maybe

57:20

around the time of Nathaniel, I might be

57:22

misremembering it. But I almost remember them even

57:25

kind of getting into a little bit of

57:27

like it wasn't heated. But a

57:29

back and forth of like the structure of

57:31

stand up because Mark Marin obviously comes from.

57:33

Mark Marin still goes to like comedy clubs

57:35

and like does bits about his cats. Like

57:38

he's still doing like, like he does like

57:40

confessional, political, whatever comedy. But then he still

57:42

will get up there and be like the

57:44

thing about getting rid of your old guitars

57:46

is this, you know, like, like

57:48

he just does jokes and and Gerard, like

57:50

a lot of his comedies is like, oh,

57:53

I'm worried about what my mom's gonna say,

57:55

you know, with this

57:57

text. And he'll just like pull out the phone and. read

58:00

it and there is a level where

58:02

I think it worked so well in Nathaniel for

58:04

me because that

58:07

is such a structurally tight. Yeah.

58:10

It's conceptually cohesive. It's

58:12

cohesive in the way it's shine all of these things where

58:14

you're like, okay, this is a

58:16

different version of what I grew

58:19

up on with standup, but

58:21

I like it. Where it's with

58:24

the reality show, it's

58:27

almost one knob

58:29

too cute. It's

58:33

actually interesting when Gerard

58:35

is talking about pining for men

58:38

that I have no conception of.

58:41

The minute that you reveal a side of a creator, I'm just

58:44

fundamentally less interested because now it's

58:46

like a complex headline

58:48

industrial complex where it's just like,

58:51

oh, like complex.com where

58:54

it's like that type of headline where it's like, I already

58:56

brought a future in Drake where it's like the

58:59

first night that record drops, it's like, Oh

59:01

my God, look at what Kendrick said about Drake

59:03

and J. Cole. And then when Gerard comes out,

59:06

it's like, Oh my God, look what Gerard and

59:08

Tyler created a rubber up to. And I'm just

59:10

like, all right,

59:12

cool. I'm just, I'm uninterested

59:14

in that. Yes. That's

59:17

like every single video you come across where it's

59:19

just like, it's just some guy at

59:22

a junket whose job is to get somebody

59:24

to say something about being passed in a

59:26

Star Wars movie or Marvel movie, whether they

59:28

would do it. If they were, you

59:30

know, if they're having the cast, would you do it? Kristen

59:32

Stewart is being asked, would you be in an MCU movie?

59:34

Now I have to see all my toys. We're like, Kristen

59:37

Stewart only says you'll do MCU of

59:39

Greta Gertlewig's involved. I'm

59:42

just like, a news story. This is

59:44

like a quip that someone's like, all right,

59:46

man, the fucking clicks are about to come

59:49

in. And it's, I also think

59:51

what this show is illuminating to me and

59:54

I felt this way for a while is

59:56

that comedy in general for,

59:59

I think honestly, like like the last

1:00:01

10 years, if not

1:00:03

longer, has been obsessed, whether

1:00:06

it's like on the more liberal

1:00:08

side, the right side of what

1:00:11

can we say, what is the

1:00:13

truth, what is reality? Because a

1:00:15

lot of comedians, what they're actually

1:00:17

fighting against is what is the role of

1:00:20

a comedian when a 15 year old with

1:00:22

a TikTok account is just as funny as

1:00:24

me and had to put in 1% of

1:00:27

the work? It's just, it's

1:00:30

flattened it. So it's like Nathan Fielder,

1:00:32

the thing about the rehearsal that was

1:00:34

genius is like, all right, this guy

1:00:36

is taking the auteur jump. Yes. Where

1:00:39

it's like, oh, Nathan, for you, it's funny.

1:00:41

But now this is a guy who's working

1:00:43

with the Safdie brothers after it. Donald Glover

1:00:46

is a similar person, where it's like, Donald

1:00:48

Glover was writing fucking werewolf bar mitzvah, chop

1:00:50

scandino, whatever. Atlanta is a project of like,

1:00:54

what is reality? What is the music

1:00:56

industry? Who am I within it? Like,

1:00:58

we're always looking now we're looking for

1:01:00

if you're that type of comedian to

1:01:02

make the jump. Right. And

1:01:04

so are we waiting for Nathaniel's?

1:01:06

Are we waiting for Gerard's jump?

1:01:10

I think so. I think even when I was watching this

1:01:12

first episode, I'm like, is

1:01:14

this just going to be this

1:01:17

or is something going to happen in Episode

1:01:19

6, 7 or throughout this? That goes like,

1:01:21

or are you just going to hang out with

1:01:23

your parents and keep trying to work through this, which is very,

1:01:26

like worthwhile, a really

1:01:29

worthwhile pursuit. But

1:01:32

is a very interesting proposition for

1:01:34

being a worthwhile TV show.

1:01:36

I mean, it's also the thing with what

1:01:39

I want from Gerard's career, a comedian

1:01:41

I have a lot of love for might not

1:01:44

be what he wants. And I mean, like, like

1:01:46

I said, we're always I think, because

1:01:49

it's so hard, we're talking about comedians

1:01:51

now that broke

1:01:53

15 years ago at this

1:01:55

point, sometimes where it's like, because

1:01:58

there's less and less comedians, Koreans were always

1:02:00

waiting for like, oh no,

1:02:03

what's your serious thing? What's your like Sandler

1:02:06

with PTA? What's your uncut gems? What's that

1:02:08

thing where I'm like, oh

1:02:10

no, you're larger than life now? And I think

1:02:13

for Carmichael, I thought after Nathaniel, I'm like, oh,

1:02:15

he's gonna write a movie. He's gonna direct, he's

1:02:17

gonna do this or that. And he's like, oh

1:02:19

no, I'm making a reality show for HBO. And

1:02:22

just, this is my mind is broken. We're talking

1:02:24

about the norm conversation, people have like, oh no,

1:02:26

it just can't be. But I wonder whether or

1:02:28

not he does view this as

1:02:31

like a more significant project than, like

1:02:33

if a drug, Carmichael just wanted to

1:02:35

constantly narrate his life, he

1:02:38

could do it on a podcast. You know what I mean? And

1:02:40

like, I'll, you know, like, and

1:02:43

I would probably check it out, you know? But like

1:02:45

most comedians have pods

1:02:47

that update two to three times a week

1:02:50

where they're just kind of like going through

1:02:52

what's going on with their lives. And

1:02:54

a lot of those shows are really successful. And

1:02:58

Gerard obviously wants to imbue his

1:03:01

stuff with a degree of

1:03:03

filmmaking and a degree of like artistic

1:03:06

kind of contextualization and

1:03:08

accent and

1:03:11

stuff like that. Cause I, the other,

1:03:13

you know, you're talking a lot about the comedy part,

1:03:15

the reality part is also interesting too, because I find

1:03:19

myself way

1:03:21

more kind of like fascinated by watching

1:03:24

like Instagram or TikTok

1:03:26

videos of dudes who are like truck

1:03:29

driver brokers making deals with

1:03:32

loading docks for their truckers in

1:03:34

like 30 second videos where they're like making

1:03:36

faces at the camera as some dude

1:03:38

is like, yeah, I can't go any higher

1:03:41

than 2800 brother. And he's just

1:03:43

like, you're really firm on that. And like that

1:03:45

to me is like almost like weird, awesome

1:03:47

slice of life reality than watching

1:03:51

this kind of like, is this

1:03:53

fake? Is this real? Is

1:03:55

HBO really putting this out if there's no

1:03:57

like catharsis Resolution

1:04:00

at the end like what is this? What

1:04:02

is this project and I think one of

1:04:04

the interesting things to watch in this show

1:04:06

is the way in which Gerard obviously? regards

1:04:09

himself, you know and regards himself

1:04:11

as honestly like a Flowering

1:04:14

being you know, like the way he dresses like

1:04:16

himself and the way is his a stylist

1:04:19

dress himself as he's like Discovered this new part

1:04:21

of himself and can and can finally like kind of

1:04:23

be like this is how I want to look

1:04:25

This is how I want to look at an award

1:04:27

show or whatever I want to wear these slippers and

1:04:29

like is like feeling his body for the first

1:04:31

time in a really like something like that That actually

1:04:34

is pretty fascinating to me that he is like

1:04:36

he's willing to do that and go through that

1:04:38

on camera it's almost more interesting

1:04:40

to me than Some

1:04:42

of the family stuff at this point, I guess so

1:04:46

I think a lot and this is The

1:04:49

if you go back and watch eight like this

1:04:52

dude is a it's really grown a lot since

1:04:54

eight, you know Yes, but it's and

1:04:56

I see this especially like in the black community almost

1:04:58

and you see it kind of with his friends when

1:05:00

he's talking And this is actually the thing that well,

1:05:03

I'm not that interested in it I

1:05:06

get why people might be bumping up against this where

1:05:08

it's like Gerard

1:05:10

Gerard is trying to navigate

1:05:13

obviously coming out the homophobia

1:05:15

from his family But so

1:05:17

much of his comedy now

1:05:19

has cast his family in

1:05:21

a certain way Yeah, and you're like, is

1:05:23

this a project that is giving

1:05:26

his family a seat

1:05:28

at the table? So they can be

1:05:30

humanized. Well, I think that the show in the

1:05:32

future episodes probably will at least give them the

1:05:35

opportunity which once

1:05:38

again, I think is Cool

1:05:42

but also like when

1:05:44

I was watching with Daniel, I'm like, I don't necessarily

1:05:46

know if I Need

1:05:49

to see Gerard's mom or

1:05:51

yeah the debt like there was something about

1:05:53

I'm just like this is one man's truth

1:05:55

And it's so interesting because it's not

1:05:58

cutting back and forth to conversations

1:06:00

or whatever, I'm seeing the world

1:06:02

or I'm trying to through

1:06:05

Carmichael's eyes. And the minute you make

1:06:07

the proposition, well, we're going to do

1:06:09

the reality show version. So you're going

1:06:11

to actually see my parents, maybe say

1:06:13

some homophobic things, say some things that

1:06:15

are like very hurtful, whatever. I'm just

1:06:17

like, artistically, that's

1:06:20

far less interesting to me.

1:06:22

It's because to your point, I'd

1:06:25

almost rather watch the Grindr dates. The

1:06:28

Grindr dates, it was like, there were points where I

1:06:30

was like, oh, this is interesting that Sherrod

1:06:33

is famous enough, he can't put

1:06:35

his face on it. But

1:06:37

when these guys show up, they're like, they don't

1:06:39

know who he is. They also don't care that there's camera

1:06:41

crews there. This is the world we live in where they're

1:06:43

like, oh, weird, you're making this for HBO. Well, let's hang

1:06:46

out. You know what I mean? You

1:06:48

told me to come meet you at like wherever he's

1:06:50

staying in, in whatever nice hotel he's in. Probably sounds

1:06:52

like a cool date. You go over there and you're

1:06:54

hanging out for a while and it's like... For these

1:06:56

real men, do you think these are actual Grindr dates?

1:06:58

That's what I was trying to pick up. Because some

1:07:00

of them I was like, yes, some of them I

1:07:02

was like, it feels like you would have had to

1:07:04

sign a waiver. I don't know. The dude who like

1:07:06

stuck, the guy who was like there the next day

1:07:08

when he's getting ready for the Emmy seems like pretty...

1:07:10

That seems like a real person to me. I don't know. I

1:07:13

guess I hadn't really interrogated the part,

1:07:16

like how real this stuff

1:07:18

was outside of the

1:07:20

Bo performance art

1:07:22

piece and the Tyler.

1:07:25

Is this literally like you guys texted,

1:07:27

he curved you and

1:07:30

then now this is the first time

1:07:32

you're talking to him. That hadn't really occurred to me

1:07:34

that the Grindr dates might be like casted.

1:07:39

Maybe that's just broken podcaster brain,

1:07:41

but there just was a little

1:07:43

bit of what is this

1:07:45

show? Are you doing the curve, your enthusiasm version

1:07:47

of the show? Are you doing the rehearsal version

1:07:49

of the show? What are the... Does

1:07:51

it have to be one of those two things for you

1:07:53

to be like a quote unquote success? Does

1:07:56

it have to be like something that breaks whatever the mold

1:07:58

is of what he's doing? Because it seems like... He

1:08:00

is very sincere about like the project

1:08:02

is to see if I can

1:08:04

find the truth about what is going on inside of

1:08:07

me And with the people I love I mean, I'm

1:08:09

gonna be honest It doesn't have

1:08:11

to be curb or the rehearsal, but

1:08:13

I am very very just as a

1:08:15

critic Kind of done with

1:08:17

the whole celebrity

1:08:20

Comedian musicians are in this too where it's

1:08:22

like You know, what's the

1:08:25

truth man? What's authenticity? We're constantly

1:08:27

being documented Like I'm going to

1:08:30

just I'll be honest like

1:08:32

art about the social media age

1:08:34

is so uninteresting to me Are

1:08:36

about reality TV or like phones

1:08:39

and the internet? I'm so

1:08:41

done with it I just like guys we

1:08:43

lost my most of our great filmmakers don't

1:08:45

make contemporary films. Yes I'm just

1:08:48

like I don't want to see PPA's like

1:08:50

this is my feelings on Instagram. I'm like,

1:08:52

I don't I Just

1:08:57

am I being a hater? Uh, I

1:09:00

don't know how we're gonna get around that. I

1:09:02

think that there are shows and movies that effectively

1:09:04

mix in There

1:09:06

there will be no show or movie

1:09:08

that will affect like truthfully document How

1:09:11

much we use text messaging because it's so

1:09:13

un-cinematic but it is honestly

1:09:15

like I see it around me like probably

1:09:18

like Is it

1:09:20

60% of the way people communicate in the world

1:09:22

right now? Like it's not it's not even close

1:09:24

to being accurately represented in shows especially

1:09:26

when you watch like shows about teenagers and it's like You're

1:09:29

watching somebody and they're just like on their phone

1:09:31

briefly before they go on like their bike ride

1:09:34

or whatever It's like nah, man, like there. Nobody

1:09:36

is not looking at their phone right? I mean,

1:09:38

but that's the funny thing even with and it

1:09:40

makes art Deficult is like being single

1:09:42

now. I'm just like oh i'm getting

1:09:45

to the point where it's like so much of

1:09:47

my Communication is like coming through my

1:09:49

phone and I was just like Dog,

1:09:52

why am I having this conversation via

1:09:54

text message or via dm? Like this

1:09:56

is the worst way to do it and

1:09:58

i'm just like I bring that

1:10:00

up because like in movies, I'm

1:10:02

like, this conversation has to happen

1:10:05

in person. You know, I'm not

1:10:07

revealing all of this shit about myself. In a

1:10:09

movie, over a pet. And sometimes it's actually like

1:10:11

easier to talk about yourself or talk about complicated

1:10:13

topics in text than it is in person. Yeah,

1:10:15

because it's so like, it's like, all right, I

1:10:17

can rewrite this sentence, I'm not gonna rewrite it.

1:10:20

And that is sometimes, even when you talk

1:10:22

to people now, like sometimes I've been going

1:10:24

back in my mind where I'm like, oh,

1:10:26

the way that I'm even communicating with the

1:10:28

world now is so

1:10:30

much different because we

1:10:33

have learned how to

1:10:35

be vulnerable in a very specific

1:10:37

way. And that's why I think

1:10:39

comedians especially are so interested in

1:10:42

this age because like the things

1:10:44

that comedians are actually giving you isn't necessarily

1:10:46

the humor or laughter, it's

1:10:48

the vulnerability. And it's just

1:10:50

like, how do you be a vulnerable artist

1:10:52

when we're just like, nah, I'm vulnerable through

1:10:54

a brick vote. Yeah, and I'm vulnerable all

1:10:56

the time. Nobody's

1:10:59

hiding how they're feeling anymore. It's

1:11:01

like, you'll be following somebody on Twitter

1:11:03

or Instagram or TikTok, you're like, damn,

1:11:06

you're going through it. You

1:11:08

just, and it's like, they're not even saying it, but you're

1:11:10

just like, you've been posted a lot. Some

1:11:12

of your friends, you're just like, all right, I got a text and

1:11:14

he's crashing out. In a way that it's like,

1:11:17

when your friends used to crash out or used to fuck

1:11:19

up, you're like, I wouldn't know unless

1:11:21

we're like, all right, we're all going to the

1:11:24

bar and like two drinks and he's like, all

1:11:26

right, man. Like I'm

1:11:28

dead inside. And now I'm like, it's

1:11:31

hard because I'm like, that's what I think that the

1:11:34

Carmichael reality show is trying to get at.

1:11:37

Where it's like the truth that I think Sherrod

1:11:40

is trying to present is, how

1:11:43

do I be a C-list celebrity that has

1:11:45

come out and make

1:11:47

comedy about it? I don't think

1:11:49

he's trying to make comedy about anything. Here. You

1:11:51

don't think he's trying to make, the Tyler the Creator thing is

1:11:53

one of the funniest things I've seen all

1:11:56

year. But it's only because it's Tyler. is

1:12:02

very raw and deeply vulnerable

1:12:05

and so lovable in

1:12:07

that scene. But I saw it as the

1:12:09

peak of humor. I actually saw

1:12:11

that punchline and set up as I'm

1:12:13

just like, this is a great writer's

1:12:15

room idea. Maybe you're right. Like this

1:12:18

is because it's like it works on me at

1:12:20

my age right now because I'm just like, who

1:12:23

is the only rapper and celebrity

1:12:25

who could make this scene not as corny

1:12:27

as it would feel? And

1:12:30

I'm like, oh, Tyler, the creator, because the minute

1:12:32

he walks in there, not only is he charming,

1:12:35

but he's like, to your point, I'm like, Tyler,

1:12:37

the creator has been on camera since he was like 17,

1:12:39

18 years old. He doesn't know anything different. He doesn't know.

1:12:42

He like, like, I think

1:12:44

Tyler after I saw what's your

1:12:46

Macau, what's the Carmichael was in

1:12:48

poor things? Yeah. You know, love

1:12:50

Carmichael. Acting needs a little work versus

1:12:54

Tyler. I'm like, yo, Tyler's

1:12:56

been famous for so long. He walked in there. It's so

1:12:58

naturalistic. I was like, yeah, it's funny. He commands the room

1:13:00

with his facial expressions. It's really he has a ton

1:13:02

of presence. He

1:13:05

was weird because I'm like, I

1:13:08

saw with Daniel and I was just like, oh, like, to Rob's

1:13:10

going to run circles around. I was like, oh, no, after leaving

1:13:12

that I'm just like, I don't want the

1:13:14

fucking time. I know. I

1:13:18

was like, when he was waiting for me,

1:13:20

you gotta get the Nathaniel extended universe. You

1:13:22

know what I mean? Get Bo Burnham in

1:13:25

his ski mask. Tyler going around eating people's

1:13:27

dinner. So you didn't like this. No,

1:13:29

no, I I thought it was

1:13:31

really interesting. We are in the

1:13:33

Emmy push of like, there's 12 shows out

1:13:36

right now. There's just so

1:13:38

much stuff on my plate. Both

1:13:40

like purse like because I'm like, oh, I want to

1:13:42

watch this or versus like, I feel compelled to like

1:13:44

check this out or watch it that.

1:13:49

I feel like I got I got I got it.

1:13:51

I hate to sound like a dick about it. I

1:13:53

feel like I got it. And I don't know if

1:13:55

I'm going to continue to watch it. Is it kind

1:13:57

of what happened with the curse where it's like, like

1:13:59

I was watching. the curse and there was

1:14:01

a point where I'm just like I got it. Well

1:14:03

the curse is different because the curse is like I

1:14:05

knew in my bones and then

1:14:07

just through the way people were writing about it

1:14:09

like something is gonna happen.

1:14:12

Oh I knew something was gonna happen but I was

1:14:14

just like you know I can check

1:14:16

it out in a month or so and then the night

1:14:18

I was just like I didn't see anything and I'm like

1:14:20

alright I'm fucking crushing tape. Yeah. Where

1:14:22

it's like I don't know I think this show

1:14:24

is gonna be not an appointment viewing it's gonna

1:14:26

be like alright I'm gonna crush like three

1:14:29

four episodes just in case.

1:14:31

After the fact. After the fact. Something

1:14:33

happens on that sixth or seventh

1:14:35

week and it's like

1:14:37

I feel before we depart give me

1:14:40

the hard sell on a couple shows. Okay. Because

1:14:42

I'm at the point where it's like I got

1:14:44

X-Men 97, Invincible, a bunch

1:14:47

of other Marvel superhero shit coming out

1:14:49

but I'm keeping up with Shogun.

1:14:51

You know what I'm saying? Give you one

1:14:53

that I think you would actually if you

1:14:55

get like a weekend to yourself

1:14:58

and you're just like I got nothing else on

1:15:00

the docket right now and we're in

1:15:02

this really weird zone where like shows

1:15:04

especially shows in their second third season it's like

1:15:06

really easy to put them in the box of

1:15:08

like the people like that show like that show

1:15:10

you don't have to cover it really in a

1:15:12

certain way because it's not gonna win any new

1:15:14

fans because a lot of people are like I

1:15:17

don't have time to watch 12 hours of television

1:15:19

to get up to where I need

1:15:21

to be to start the new season or whatever. Tokyo

1:15:24

Vice. Now Tokyo Vice

1:15:26

I don't know if you watch any of it the first season

1:15:28

it was a little like I think it was

1:15:30

a little uneven because like there's the Michael Mann directed

1:15:33

pilot then it takes

1:15:35

a little while to get its sea legs as

1:15:37

it's going but it gets going and it's

1:15:39

actually like really really good. This

1:15:41

second season which was like two

1:15:43

years after the last one came out there's a couple

1:15:45

of shows like that like Outer Range is another one

1:15:48

where it's like there's been because of COVID and the

1:15:50

strikes like such long delays of getting to the screens

1:15:53

but Tokyo Vice season two is fucking incredible

1:15:56

and if you just are like in the

1:15:58

Japan zone. And are like, I'm

1:16:01

loving this. Like, I

1:16:03

recommend checking out. I've seen rumblings

1:16:05

that Season 2 is actually correct.

1:16:08

I don't think you

1:16:10

could turn on Season 2, Episode 1, and

1:16:12

watch the like previously on Tokyo Vice and get

1:16:14

it. So there is

1:16:16

also just some incredible Yakuza stuff

1:16:19

in the first season. So

1:16:21

I'll do Tokyo Vice because you won

1:16:24

me over. Shout out Justin Sales. I

1:16:26

was supposed to finish the gentlemen.

1:16:28

I only got halfway through. Because

1:16:31

Justin Sales has been infected with the Fennessee

1:16:33

disease. Where he's constantly hitting me up. He's like, yo,

1:16:35

you want to go to this screening? Yeah. And I

1:16:37

was just reading my text. He's like, yo, you want to

1:16:39

go see the samurai? But I miss... I was

1:16:42

like, yo, you want to go see the last samurai? I was

1:16:44

like, oh, it's a Sunday. Hell yeah.

1:16:46

I show up. And it's

1:16:48

like, no, this is like the French 1967... Oh,

1:16:51

the samurai. The samurai. It's incredible. And

1:16:53

I was just like, yeah, Melville's one

1:16:55

of my favorite directors, man. I walk

1:16:57

into the Egyptian. And it's

1:16:59

like, oh, no, this is like American

1:17:02

Cinematheque. This is like the premiere of

1:17:04

the 4K restoration. Yeah. And I've heard

1:17:06

of this movie before, but I was

1:17:08

expecting Tom Cruise. And I

1:17:10

think down, man. Yeah. And I

1:17:12

was just like, wait, am I watching one

1:17:15

of the fucking best films ever made? I

1:17:18

was not in the budget because it's my first time

1:17:20

at the Egyptian. Yeah. And I was like, dog, I

1:17:22

got to get back home. I got to finish The

1:17:24

Gentleman. And after I got it, I'm like... Yeah, I'm

1:17:26

going to watch The Gentleman. I was just like, bro,

1:17:29

man, I was so

1:17:31

blown away. I was not expecting it. But

1:17:34

I had finished four episodes of The Gentleman,

1:17:37

I just want to say. That's

1:17:39

more of what we need. It's entertaining as

1:17:41

hell. So I know we can complain

1:17:44

about the Netflix of it all, but it's like you

1:17:46

want to know the feeling it gave me. People

1:17:48

are embarrassed of the shows that they used to watch

1:17:50

when they were kids. I remember when

1:17:52

Weeds was out. Mm hmm. And

1:17:55

the feeling of that show where it was just like,

1:17:58

oh, something is happening. in every episode

1:18:00

and there's just like something happens, there's a reversal, there's a

1:18:02

new problem, there's a new problem. And it was just like

1:18:04

the craziest shit. And by the end of those seasons, I

1:18:06

was just like, this is the worst show ever, but like

1:18:09

I'm still tapped in. And the

1:18:11

gentlemen gives me that showtime

1:18:14

feeling of there's

1:18:17

constantly like a new person. But there's like a

1:18:19

little bit of like a Netflix speed to it.

1:18:21

Like it feels like they are, even though the

1:18:23

episodes are long, and even though

1:18:25

like the Netflix just is like, here you're

1:18:27

already 10 hours behind, like here's the season.

1:18:31

Those episodes, like you can throw on a

1:18:33

gentleman and just be like, that was a

1:18:35

very entertaining 63 minutes or whatever,

1:18:37

and just be like, you

1:18:40

don't feel like you were like, I can't believe they're

1:18:42

just dragging this out more and more and more. I'm

1:18:45

sucked in the more I watch it, where

1:18:47

it's like it does the good Netflix thing

1:18:49

where I'm like, oh,

1:18:52

I've watched 60 minutes of this, but it

1:18:54

does not feel like it. And

1:18:56

there's like, if I'm like checking my phone and then

1:18:58

I look back up, something dope has

1:19:00

happened. And I'm like, oh shit, I'm locked back in.

1:19:02

I gotta go back in now, yeah. Yeah, where it's

1:19:04

like a lot of show, like I can't do that

1:19:06

with Shogun. When I walk, like I'm like, all right.

1:19:09

No, the Shogun has actually cracked something in the modern

1:19:11

television viewer where I feel like I

1:19:13

wonder whether there has been a show that people

1:19:15

are more locked in on in

1:19:18

like the last five years. Like

1:19:20

I can't, obviously because of the language, but also because

1:19:22

of the detail, people are like,

1:19:25

I watch every single frame of Shogun, with

1:19:28

fucking like put me inside of

1:19:30

a deprivation take. I cannot be distracted. Like

1:19:32

it's like, it's dinner time. Like I don't

1:19:34

remember a show where it's like, usually I'll

1:19:36

be eating dinner, I'm on like YouTube, or

1:19:38

it's like, I'll be watching something on Netflix

1:19:40

and be like, yo, let me scroll through

1:19:43

Twitter, whatever. It's like, no, like I'm like,

1:19:45

all right, for this hour, I'm

1:19:47

just watching this like it's a fucking movie.

1:19:49

And it's like, once

1:19:52

again, because the slate has kind of been cleared

1:19:54

by the MCU, the Star Wars of it, it's

1:19:56

like, I'm falling back in love

1:19:58

with the rhythms of T. of

1:20:00

having a gentleman type shit where I'm just like, I'm

1:20:02

about to go to bed. You can't go see a

1:20:04

fucking one of the like 100 greatest movies of all

1:20:06

time on the side because then you just everything else

1:20:08

gets blown out of water. Like

1:20:11

if you go see La Semeria and then you

1:20:13

come back and you're like, well should I check

1:20:15

out Manhunt on Apple? Like I like Manhunt. It's

1:20:17

just like it's not fair any more than it

1:20:19

was fair to be like I'm

1:20:21

watching, you know like any

1:20:24

show from the 2000s like I think

1:20:26

that there was a moment where it

1:20:29

it felt like Mad Men and Breaking Bad and some

1:20:31

of the like Sopranos and some of those shows were

1:20:33

like punching at the weight of like truly great cinema

1:20:35

in terms of like what it made you think about

1:20:37

how it made you feel even sometimes how it looked

1:20:40

but like it is very hard still

1:20:42

to go have like a really perfect

1:20:44

two-hour experience with a movie and

1:20:47

then come back and be like I'm on hour four

1:20:49

of eleven of The Gentleman. I mean, but here's also

1:20:51

the thing. You don't have to deal with this as

1:20:53

much. JS,

1:20:56

my Highland homie, he's always inviting me

1:20:58

out for you. Go

1:21:00

check out The Wedding Scammer. Anyway, quite

1:21:03

literally he'll be like, yo you want to go

1:21:05

watch this like 4k restoration of this that like

1:21:07

legendary movie and I'm like, dog, I

1:21:10

was just trapped in a theater for two hours

1:21:12

watching Godzilla playing a car, watching anime, X-Men 97.

1:21:14

It's like after that my brain is such mush.

1:21:18

Yeah, it's like alright, I'm gonna lock in

1:21:20

on YouTube and just watch like a Sushi

1:21:23

Master. Yeah. Just his day of breath. Like

1:21:25

that's the only thing my mind will take

1:21:27

in because almost like watching the SABR, I

1:21:29

was like to your point, it

1:21:32

fundamentally changed my brain chemistry in a way where

1:21:34

I'm like, I can't

1:21:36

go back home and watch almost

1:21:38

anything that's on my docket for

1:21:40

work. Yeah, you gotta clear the

1:21:43

mechanism. And I don't know how like Sean

1:21:45

does it. Like sometimes like Sean, I

1:21:47

watch all these movies and I'm like, how did you

1:21:49

go and watch the MCU after? Oh

1:21:55

man, we should wrap it up there. I really,

1:21:57

really appreciate you coming down. This is an awesome

1:21:59

conversation. Charles you can hear

1:22:01

on the ring reverse and all over the

1:22:03

ringer podcast network Midnight boys comes out like

1:22:06

kind of just tied to whatever the episode

1:22:08

most what most Wednesdays now We're on Thursdays

1:22:10

because of you like x-men 97 Invincible

1:22:14

season finale guys tap in monkey man. We're

1:22:16

doing a monkey man. I'm really excited for

1:22:18

it. I got monkey man coming up I

1:22:20

can't wait to see first omen You're

1:22:23

a horror fan. No, I'm when I tell

1:22:25

you like I am like and like I can't do

1:22:27

can't do our I'm not even to describe some of

1:22:29

the stuff I've seen then Thank

1:22:32

you so much to Kai McMullen for producing us

1:22:34

today, and we will be back on Thursday Expect

1:22:37

Shogun expect top chef and then probably

1:22:39

a little bit of previewing of Ripley

1:22:41

on Netflix and sugar on Apple TV

1:22:43

Like I Colin Farrell's back