0:00

So dear listeners, we are about

0:02

to start the formal start

0:05

of this podcast, but Brother Phap

0:08

Hu has been doing

0:10

the plumbing. So there's a blockage

0:13

in the sink in Thich

0:15

Nhat Hanh's sitting still hut.

0:19

And I've been sitting here for a good few

0:21

minutes waiting for Brother Phap Hu to unblock

0:24

the sink.

0:25

And then I thought that actually

0:27

this is Zen practice, because

0:31

Zen practice is about unblocking

0:33

blocks. It's about flow.

0:36

You know, one of the core practices of Plum

0:39

Village is go as a river. So

0:42

we couldn't go as a river if the sink is

0:44

blocked. So I'm waiting

0:46

for Brother Phap Hu to finish unblocking

0:48

the sink. Brother Phap Hu, are

0:50

you nearly done? Almost there, almost

0:52

there.

0:53

Dear listeners, give

0:56

me just a few more minutes. OK,

0:58

so I'm going to sit here patiently

1:01

because patience is also a Plum

1:04

Village virtue. And

1:06

then hopefully

1:07

Phap Hu will finish in a moment and then we can start

1:10

the formal proceedings.

1:13

Dear friends, welcome back to

1:16

this latest episode of the podcast

1:18

series The Way

1:19

Out is In. I'm

1:22

Joe Confino, working at

1:24

the intersection of personal transformation

1:28

and systems evolution.

1:35

And

1:41

I am Brother Phap Hu, a Zen Buddhist monk,

1:43

student

1:44

of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh in the Plum Village

1:46

tradition. Dear listeners, today

1:48

we are going to be talking about the family

1:51

retreats in Plum Village, when

1:54

for the only time in the year, families

1:57

come with their children. And we're

1:59

going to...

1:59

So they talk about, in a sense, how

2:02

the dharma can touch the

2:04

lives of children and teenagers.

2:06

The Way Out, Christian

2:29

Hello everyone, I'm Joe Confino.

2:32

And I am Brother Phap Hu. So, Brother,

2:34

we are just over halfway through

2:37

three weeks of retreats for families

2:40

and their children. And this

2:43

is very unusual in the Buddhist tradition to

2:45

open the monastery, not just

2:47

to

2:48

serious practitioners, but

2:51

to parents who want

2:53

to bring their children to experience the

2:57

joy of being

2:58

in the Plum Village tradition. And

3:02

we know that this has become a hugely

3:04

popular part of the year, that

3:07

it's become a hotter ticket

3:09

than big music concerts like Glastonbury.

3:12

We have people who are waiting with

3:15

their finger on their computer to

3:18

get their place. And the tickets

3:21

this year sold out in less than two

3:23

hours. Why is

3:25

it, Brother, that

3:27

people want to bring their families to

3:29

a Zen monastery in the south of France?

3:32

I wish I can ask the parents this. But

3:38

I would say that the reputation of

3:40

the summer retreat has been as

3:43

rip-rode into

3:46

many countries and many communities

3:48

and many Sangha members of the

3:51

wonderful

3:53

experience that families have when

3:55

they come together. And like

3:58

you shared,

3:59

There's not many traditions,

4:02

particularly in a

4:05

meditation

4:07

practice

4:10

center where it's focused more

4:13

on more silence or

4:16

deep teachings and base

4:20

for adults. And

4:23

it's harder to curate

4:26

something that can talk

4:30

and can be received by children

4:33

from

4:36

... Our program is from 6 to 12

4:39

for children and then 13

4:42

to 17 for teens and then you have the wake

4:44

up which are young adults and then everyone

4:46

else. But we do have a lot of infants

4:49

that come to Plum Village also

4:52

and they

4:52

don't have a program because we ask

4:54

the parents to take care of them throughout the retreat.

4:58

And I think one

5:02

of the hot ticket reason

5:04

is because it is right in the summer

5:07

vacation of everyone and

5:11

it's a very unique experience to

5:13

be in a Zen

5:16

practice center, particularly

5:20

great gratitude towards our

5:22

teacher Thay for

5:24

having this wisdom and having this insight

5:28

to curate retreat

5:30

where families come

5:33

together, practice together and

5:35

transform together. And

5:38

I think particularly in my

5:43

own generation of those

5:45

who grew up as Vietnamese in the West,

5:48

we

5:48

particularly are

5:50

uprooted from our own heritage and

5:53

our own country and most

5:55

of us are Buddhists, whether we know

5:57

it or not.

6:00

being in touch

6:02

with a tradition, it's

6:05

also learning about oneself. It's

6:07

also learning about our genetic

6:10

ancestor, our spiritual ancestor, and

6:12

our land ancestors.

6:13

And the

6:15

importance of having

6:18

a community that is

6:21

practicing together where you can

6:23

just flow as a river and not feel

6:25

like you're trying too hard is

6:28

what Plum Village has been

6:30

able to develop through the years.

6:33

And when you enter into a retreat such as

6:35

Plum Village, people, and

6:37

particularly I know children, those who

6:40

are for the first time, I am sure there's a lot

6:42

of fear, there's some nervousness,

6:45

there's the fear of the unknown.

6:47

It's like, what am I doing

6:49

at a temple or a monastery? And

6:53

then they start to realize, actually the monks

6:55

and nuns are human beings. We're

6:58

not so

7:00

strict as they think, and we

7:02

actually know how to smile. We can speak

7:05

their language, and language is not just

7:09

the national language, but it's

7:11

also

7:11

the language of today's time. And

7:15

our way of being with them expresses

7:20

this is what mindfulness

7:22

is. And we guide them through like

7:26

meditation such as snack

7:28

meditation, or we

7:31

do games to

7:34

help them be more aware of the

7:37

whole program, the whole

7:39

kids community that is there. And

7:41

it just becomes

7:44

the, it becomes the Dharma

7:46

in a very non-Dharmic

7:48

way, which is, I think is

7:50

very cool because that's how

7:52

I was introduced to Plum Village, which

7:55

was just being in the presence

7:57

of people.

7:59

not

8:01

just monks and nuns, but also adults

8:04

that are all in

8:09

the intention of cultivating

8:12

loving-kindness, compassion,

8:15

presence, and

8:18

discovering themselves. And that

8:21

collective energy, the

8:24

children which are like

8:26

sponges in a way, they

8:29

don't learn through just the spoken

8:31

language, but they learn through the invisible

8:34

dhamma, which is just a way of being. And

8:37

I particularly was very

8:39

impacted from my first retreat.

8:42

I don't remember

8:44

any dhamma, but I just

8:46

remember how fun it was without

8:48

electronics, without video games,

8:52

and

8:53

my dad was truly happy.

8:57

And that was so important for me

9:00

now that I reflect on my

9:02

childhood, like what are the gems

9:05

in my upbringing? And

9:07

one that stands out very clearly is

9:10

when my parents are in Plum Village because

9:13

somehow Plum Village

9:15

energy and the creation

9:18

of the space that is being

9:21

developed together, everybody's

9:23

co-creating this retreat. And we

9:27

get to just be ourselves and

9:30

not try

9:32

to compete with each other. We're

9:35

not competing to who's the more mindful person

9:37

or who's going to become the Buddha

9:39

first. And

9:40

then everybody is

9:43

slowly unlayering all

9:46

of the masks that they're wearing, as well

9:49

as

9:50

starting to embrace

9:52

and accept themselves. And

9:54

that particular presence

9:57

has a very deep impact on the

9:59

world.

9:59

on a child. And

10:03

it also gives hope because if we

10:06

live in a family or if

10:08

we live in a society that is very

10:11

broken, a lot of violence,

10:14

a lot of anger and hatred, then

10:16

we think this is the world.

10:20

And a retreat such as even

10:22

one week, seven days, you

10:24

start to see there's another way of life. There's

10:27

another way of being. There's another way of seeing.

10:30

There's another way of communicating

10:34

that can definitely shift

10:36

a child's whole perspective of the

10:38

world. And the summer

10:40

retreat, particularly, I

10:43

would say in Thay's language, is

10:46

sowing seeds at a very young

10:48

age and letting them already

10:50

touch happiness, touch

10:53

stillness, touch joy,

10:55

excitement,

10:58

and fun without any outer

11:02

entertainment or substance outside

11:05

such as drugs and alcohol and

11:07

loud music and so on. And

11:10

just realizing that it does

11:13

take a community. This is ancient wisdom.

11:15

It does take

11:16

a community to help

11:19

grow a child. And for me,

11:21

the growing is not like being beside

11:24

them and guiding them, but the growing is just

11:26

also the way

11:27

I'm conducting myself is impacting

11:30

somebody who is right next to me, even

11:32

though I'm not speaking to them. But my

11:35

way of being is

11:36

already a transmission. So

11:39

the summer retreat has developed

11:42

through the years focusing

11:45

on families because we

11:47

know that a family is a foundation

11:50

for

11:50

anyone, for many of

11:52

us. It's

11:55

the start of our journey and

11:58

a lot of our family.

11:59

friends don't have the wonderful

12:02

conditions of coming from a loving

12:04

family and

12:07

a family that

12:08

expresses

12:10

care and attention and so

12:12

on. And so

12:14

in spirituality, we speak of a spiritual

12:16

family and sometimes the spiritual

12:19

family is more powerful

12:22

than our own genetic family because

12:28

family, for me, is like

12:30

a home. And when we think of home,

12:33

we think of the element of

12:35

safety,

12:36

the element of warmth,

12:39

the element of understanding, and

12:41

the element of being supported.

12:44

And not all of

12:46

us have

12:48

that fortune in our own blood

12:50

family, but life

12:53

can take us in many directions and

12:56

a spiritual community

12:58

can

13:00

create a bond that is like

13:02

a spiritual family. And a lot

13:05

of my own brothers and

13:06

sisters, my spiritual brothers and sisters,

13:09

I feel like they truly do

13:11

understand me at a much deeper level

13:13

than my own blood family.

13:16

And vice

13:18

versa, I feel like there are some of my

13:21

monastic siblings that

13:23

I feel they are me.

13:26

Their happiness is definitely my happiness,

13:28

their suffering is definitely my suffering, their

13:31

journey is my journey. And so this

13:33

thread of connection,

13:37

it's really a part of the Buddhist

13:39

foundation. When

13:41

the Buddha became enlightened, the

13:44

first thing he did was to create

13:46

a community.

13:47

And I would

13:49

even say that the Buddha's journey

13:52

goes all the way back to the support

13:55

of children. One of my favorite

13:57

books of Thai is Old Path

13:59

White Cloud.

13:59

and his Thai masterpiece

14:02

in writing the story of

14:04

the Buddha through the eyes of an untouchable

14:07

boy, who was

14:10

one of the buffalo boy who

14:12

cut the grass that offered

14:15

to the Buddha so that he can have a cushion to sit

14:17

on, and with the

14:19

girl who the Buddha met who

14:22

saw the Buddha fainted and gave him

14:25

milk and then every day brought

14:27

offering of food so that he had

14:30

that condition to practice,

14:33

which then

14:33

led to his enlightenment. So part

14:36

of the

14:37

non-Buddha elements are the children.

14:40

So in a way, it's so beautiful to see that

14:43

what we're doing may seem new,

14:45

but

14:46

at the core of it, it's not.

14:48

We're going exactly back

14:51

to the beginning, which are

14:53

the children are the conditions

14:56

that have helped

14:58

our root teacher, the Buddha, become having

15:03

the conditions for him to reach enlightenment.

15:06

And then in our times,

15:09

the children we see

15:11

are not

15:15

only the future, but it is our

15:17

future. And when we

15:19

learn to care for a child,

15:21

we're also learning to care

15:24

for the child within us.

15:26

And this is my own practice

15:28

and my own insight that when

15:32

I

15:33

have been in touch with children

15:35

and the diversity

15:36

of the children, and of

15:39

course they are loud, sometimes they're very messy,

15:41

sometimes they're very naughty,

15:45

they're all opportunities to

15:48

truly practice with all these

15:51

emotions that come up and

15:53

ask myself, why am I so angry? And

15:55

I realized because all of those qualities

15:57

are also inside of me, the qualities.

16:01

that makes me suffer, that I'm running

16:04

away from. And so when I see

16:06

it, it's a mirror for

16:08

me. But at the same time, how do I transform

16:11

that in me? And how do I still

16:13

show

16:13

up and accept them for

16:16

the beauty that they are, which

16:18

is also accepting myself?

16:20

And so there is this beautiful,

16:23

I would say in my own, this

16:26

beautiful dance within the inner child and

16:30

the outer child, which are the physical

16:32

children that come to Plum Village.

16:34

So this is just like

16:37

the spiritual side. And then on the other side,

16:39

the families are just so

16:41

happy when they're together here. And

16:44

not everyone is happy. I

16:46

just have to put this out there. There are some

16:48

children who truly suffer when they come for

16:50

the first few days, and they even get really

16:53

angry like why their parents even brought them

16:55

here. And the

16:58

beauty is the other children

17:00

brings

17:01

them in.

17:03

And we do a lot of sport here. We do

17:05

a lot of

17:08

singing even, just different

17:10

types of activity, depending on

17:13

our monastic

17:14

holding the group, as well as all the volunteers.

17:17

And there are now elements of the happy farm,

17:20

which we bring the children to the happy farm, getting

17:22

in touch with the nature, seeing

17:25

the potatoes, help harvesting the

17:27

cucumbers, the tomatoes,

17:30

and just very basic things

17:32

that actually give so

17:35

much life to the children. And

17:39

then one of the most powerful moments

17:41

are the beginning

17:42

of new practices that the children and

17:44

parents do together, normally

17:46

on day six of the retreat. And

17:48

it's when the

17:50

parents would

17:52

have a moment to share

17:55

from the heart to the child.

18:01

the gratitude that they have

18:03

towards their child,

18:04

and they would water some of the beautiful flowers,

18:07

and then even have a moment to express

18:09

a regret, as

18:13

well as to share

18:15

something deep down from their heart, what they truly

18:18

wish for their child, and then the child

18:20

would do the same. And

18:22

it's a very,

18:25

maybe one of the highlights of our

18:27

retreats sometimes is these moments

18:29

that you see the mother and the father

18:31

being able

18:34

to express to their children and their

18:37

children listening, and then vice versa,

18:39

and just happy tears, the

18:41

embrace. And I think these

18:43

moments,

18:44

it may happen once,

18:47

but it may be

18:48

the vitamin that

18:50

has unlimited energy

18:53

throughout someone's journey. Well,

18:56

rather, thank you for all that. And

18:59

what you were just saying at the end reminds

19:01

me, I mean, and we've talked about it on other episodes,

19:04

but the importance of time

19:06

and space, that

19:10

even when people go on normal holidays, they're

19:13

always trying to keep their kids happy, and they're always

19:15

trying to arrange things. And here

19:17

it's about calming down and having

19:19

time. And I know at retreats

19:23

that I've been part of, sometimes

19:25

the parents, or sometimes people

19:28

who are parents,

19:30

recognize during the retreat that

19:33

when they're with their children, they're

19:35

not really listening to their children, that

19:37

they're thinking about their projects, and thinking about

19:40

what they should be doing and what they haven't done.

19:43

And a lot of people realize that actually just

19:45

the most simple thing is that

19:48

what children want is

19:50

the presence of the parents, to

19:52

know that they're seen, and that they're being

19:54

listened to, and that when they say something, it's

19:57

being responded to. And

19:59

if children,

19:59

are speaking or wanting to say something

20:02

and the parents are absent-minded or not

20:04

present, then actually that can create

20:06

some very real psychological difficulties

20:08

for children, feeling not heard, feeling

20:11

not respected, feeling not

20:13

cared for.

20:14

So just

20:16

the art of slowing down,

20:19

and as you say, being in an atmosphere where

20:22

other people are supporting that creates

20:24

this extraordinary opportunity just

20:26

for people to be together. You

20:29

mentioned

20:32

when you started, Papu, that

20:35

obviously Thai, this is not something

20:37

you've invented in the last year

20:40

or two, that this was in fact central

20:42

to all of Thai's retreats, that when children

20:45

were present, that he would always

20:47

start off his Dharma talks

20:49

by spending 15 minutes with

20:51

the children and teenagers and

20:54

gave them a talk specifically for

20:56

them.

20:59

And on his walking meditations, he

21:01

would always hold the hands of children

21:03

and the children would be up front, not

21:05

sort of

21:07

walking at the back but would be walking with Thai

21:09

at the front. I'm

21:11

just wondering if you could talk about

21:13

Thai's relationship to

21:15

children and also I think the way he

21:18

spoke to them, because he

21:20

spoke to them in a very beautiful

21:23

direct way. He didn't treat them as

21:26

oh you're young, I don't have to bother. He spoke to

21:28

them as

21:29

human beings in the same,

21:31

might have used different language, but he gave them a lot

21:34

of respect. Yeah,

21:37

Thai was such a skillful teacher

21:40

and his way

21:42

of being, because he knew

21:45

that every action that he produced

21:47

through body, speech and mind

21:50

is a transmission. And

21:53

I think we forget that

21:57

children are natural,

21:59

mindfulness observer,

22:01

like they had the seed and

22:03

maybe it's actually

22:06

when it's so present

22:09

because their sense,

22:12

their own curiosity,

22:15

which is one of the factors of enlightenment

22:17

is to investigate, to be curious,

22:20

to see, and to ask.

22:22

And so a child already is so

22:25

curious and they're

22:27

soaking in through their senses,

22:29

their eyes, their ears, their

22:31

smell, their contact, and

22:33

so on. And so, Thay's

22:37

way of being with children is definitely

22:40

beyond the words. It's his way

22:42

of seeing them. He would look

22:44

at them in their eyes when he speaks

22:46

to them. He would motion

22:49

them to come closer to him during

22:52

the Dharma talk and in his later

22:54

years he would even

22:55

invite one child to sit next to him

22:57

while he's giving a Dharma talk to like 800

23:00

people. And in a way,

23:02

I

23:03

feel like there's so many

23:05

layers to what is happening. So this

23:08

is all of my perception and what I

23:10

observe. It's also

23:12

a way of showing adults who

23:14

are present that there

23:17

is, we can be with

23:19

a child in a way that we

23:22

see them as us and we

23:24

see them that they do have

23:26

the seeds of mindfulness. They

23:29

do have the capacity

23:31

to understand even some of the deepest teachings.

23:33

Thay would teach them

23:36

the teachings are non-discrimination

23:39

and he uses the example of his two

23:42

hands where he would

23:45

share that his right hand

23:47

is very productive in his lifetime.

23:50

It is written all

23:52

of the poems, all of

23:54

the books, the calligraphies,

23:57

only one poem

23:58

that was written by both hands.

23:59

on a typewriter by him,

24:02

but everything was done by the right

24:04

hand. And

24:07

it seems like the left hand has done nothing.

24:09

And so by looking from

24:12

a bird's eye view, it seems like there's

24:14

a superior and inferior pair

24:18

of hands. And Taiyi

24:20

would say

24:21

in his teachings that there

24:23

was one day he was hanging a frame

24:26

and the left hand was holding

24:28

a nail and the right hand the

24:30

hammer and accidentally the Taiyi's

24:34

mindfulness wasn't there. So his

24:36

right hand with the hammer

24:39

accidentally hit the left hand. And

24:41

in that moment, you know, everybody laughs

24:44

because everybody knows exactly where Taiyi

24:46

is going. But then Taiyi stops and he says,

24:49

in that moment, do we think that

24:51

the left hand is

24:54

angry and is

24:56

criticizing and judging and wanting to punish

24:58

back and say, give me that hammer and

25:01

I want justice. But actually

25:03

the teaching of

25:05

non-discrimination is already in

25:08

us, which is at that very

25:10

moment the right hand would put the hammer down

25:14

without non-self. It

25:16

takes care of the left hand as it

25:18

is taking care of itself. And

25:21

so that our own two hands has

25:23

the insight of non-discrimination.

25:27

And Taiyi teaches this to the children

25:30

and he would always link

25:32

it to siblings, to mother and

25:35

father, to community.

25:37

We start to see each other like two

25:39

hands. And

25:42

the beauty of this is also when

25:44

Taiyi's teaching to the children, the

25:47

adults thinks Taiyi is only speaking

25:49

to the children and not to the adults.

25:50

So the adults are all very relaxed. So

25:53

they're actually taking it in

25:56

and they remember the children's teaching

25:58

more than the adults.

25:59

teaching which they go

26:02

to headspace level and

26:04

they use their intellect more to and try

26:06

to grasp what Tai is teaching

26:09

but when he's teaching the children it's

26:11

so relaxed they're so relaxed

26:13

and and his tone and his Tai's

26:16

humor

26:17

is very present when he's with the children

26:19

and like he would you know put

26:21

his hand at his waist and make

26:23

a motion like if the left hand is like this

26:26

is injustice give me back that

26:28

right hand give me back that hammer and I

26:30

want justice I'm gonna beat you up and

26:33

you know like he just becomes

26:35

one with them and

26:37

for me this

26:39

is also breaking the

26:41

concept of what a

26:44

Zen monk is or a spiritual

26:46

practitioner is we should be you

26:49

know serene

26:51

and and and I

26:53

don't know like all of the stereotypes

26:56

that we get as a Zen monastics or

26:58

as monastics in general we shouldn't

27:00

be laughing or

27:03

whatever and

27:05

you know just this ease that

27:07

Tai is offering

27:10

definitely has a deep penetration to

27:12

the

27:13

mind consciousness the store consciousness

27:15

and the collective of everyone

27:18

and children would fall asleep during his talk

27:21

even infants I remember one time

27:23

you know there was

27:25

a mother who was breastfeeding

27:27

in the meditation hall which in

27:29

the Eastern culture like this would

27:31

this was like a whoa

27:34

you don't do this in a holy space you know

27:36

and and and

27:39

I I remember that Tai even spoke

27:41

to that I acknowledge

27:44

because Tai was so skillful because maybe

27:47

when the child was crying the mother feel so

27:49

much shame but the mother really wants

27:51

to be there and

27:53

what the child need is the milk and

27:57

and maybe the mother is

27:59

would do do anything in her capacity to

28:01

care for the child, as

28:04

well as take care of herself, which is to be in this

28:06

retreat. And Thay

28:09

was so skillful in one Dhamma talk,

28:11

and it was amongst 800 people.

28:16

And Thay said, in this moment of giving

28:18

this Dhamma, I know that

28:20

there's also another Dhamma that

28:23

is being offered, which is the collective

28:25

energy. And there is a baby

28:27

on Thay's right that

28:29

is being cared for by the

28:31

mother's milk, but also by

28:34

the collective energy of

28:36

everyone. And he said,

28:39

and this energy is like the milk of mindfulness

28:42

that we're

28:42

also offering to the child.

28:45

So Thay was just so skillful. He

28:48

probably was able

28:50

to see the emotions

28:52

and the body

28:56

gesture from the mother, which probably has

28:58

some shame. And Thay said, it's

29:00

okay,

29:00

because in this moment, the baby

29:03

is even being embraced. And

29:06

Thay said that the baby may not understand

29:08

the words, but

29:11

the collective energy is what

29:14

the baby is absorbing. And

29:17

so knowing that, when we

29:19

have awareness such as this, and Thay, this

29:21

is a deep teaching,

29:22

meaning all of you who are present, we

29:25

are co-creating this

29:27

environment for this child.

29:30

So be mindful of your thoughts, be

29:32

mindful of your speech, be mindful

29:34

of your presence, because it is having

29:37

a transmission that is invisible, just like

29:39

radio signals that

29:42

one can receive. So

29:44

just such skillfulness and such

29:47

art of a teacher Thay is. Thank

29:55

you.

30:15

Thank you, a beautiful

30:18

story. One of the other things

30:20

Ty used to do was normally

30:22

in retreats there'd be one morning where he would

30:25

do questions and answers and

30:28

he would always give the first

30:30

period of time to the children to ask. What

30:34

I remember is that often

30:37

the children ask the most profound

30:39

questions and also

30:42

they were able to bring out Ty's

30:44

humour because a lot of people

30:45

don't recognise

30:48

or haven't had

30:50

the experience of Ty's humour

30:52

and he was a very funny Zen master. I

30:56

remember one child once asking,

30:58

Ty said, why do

31:00

monks shave their hair? Why

31:02

do monks shave their head? And

31:05

Ty immediately said, so that we can

31:07

save on the shampoo. And

31:09

it was just masterful.

31:12

But also brother, I don't know if you have any memory

31:14

of just the depth of

31:17

questions that young children

31:19

would ask that, you know, often

31:21

an adult would ask quite a,

31:22

sometimes quite convoluted questions or as

31:25

you said, questions from the intellect.

31:28

And children would offer the most profound

31:30

questions that actually drew out some of the deepest

31:33

teachings of Ty.

31:34

I remember one child asking,

31:36

Ty, what is the meaning

31:38

of life? And

31:43

I think all of us, we have that question. There

31:48

was some laughter in the audience because like,

31:51

I think it comes from like, what

31:53

does a child know about life to even ask

31:55

that question? But Ty takes

31:57

it very seriously. And

32:00

Thay would allow

32:03

the whole audience to laugh and

32:05

to enjoy the moment. But

32:08

then Thay would definitely answer

32:11

as if the child, not

32:14

as if he knows the child, is

32:16

really seeking an

32:20

answer. And Thay, one

32:22

time he said,

32:25

if I remember correctly,

32:27

and Thay is like,

32:29

what is the meaning of life? It is

32:31

to be so present so that

32:33

we can love,

32:35

so that we can see our interconnectedness

32:39

with all the ones that

32:41

are around us. And he said to the child,

32:44

your parents, your brother, your

32:46

sister, even though sometimes

32:48

they make you angry, deep

32:50

down inside you do love them.

32:52

And maybe our whole journey

32:55

of life is not to learn

32:57

about it, but it's to live the

32:59

message of love.

33:02

And just as simple as that, and

33:04

I think, like for me, it hit

33:07

a chord in me. Because

33:09

so much of us, we do search

33:12

for the longing

33:15

of being accepted.

33:17

And maybe that is a search for so many

33:19

of us of life to be accepted, to

33:21

be seen, to be heard. And

33:24

then

33:24

Thay always bring it back

33:27

to oneself. And Thay said, but the most

33:29

important thing is that we

33:31

also learn to have the capacity

33:34

to love ourselves. Because

33:37

loving ourselves is loving

33:40

the whole cosmos.

33:41

Because when we love ourselves, we want

33:43

to protect and care for ourselves. So

33:45

when we love ourselves and

33:48

we learn to love others, we do it in

33:50

that same understanding, just like

33:52

the two hands. So that

33:55

is very profound,

33:58

deep and... lifetime

34:01

practice

34:03

and the child listening,

34:05

Thay is sowing

34:08

a very powerful seed in that

34:10

child. And so I see

34:12

that every time Thay

34:15

hears a question

34:16

and it may be very standard

34:19

or basic from a child but

34:21

as a Zen master he would make it a

34:23

very deep moment where he would give a very

34:25

deep answer which

34:28

he knows it will benefit

34:31

so many people in that space.

34:33

Thank you, brother. I

34:36

just want to ask you to talk a little

34:38

bit about the different age

34:40

groups that come to Plymouth Village and how you work with

34:42

them. So you said that

34:45

the first

34:46

age group that you work with at the youngest age

34:48

is six and up. And

34:51

I just wondered if you could share a bit with listeners

34:54

about

34:55

what you can do with a six-year-old

34:57

in terms of the practice because I know that

35:00

there are certain things you do like a pebble

35:02

meditation which is very simple

35:04

ways of helping them to see

35:07

beyond the mind and to get

35:10

into their true feelings. But how

35:12

do you work with someone who's

35:15

six, seven or eight years old? What can

35:18

you do? Thank you.

35:20

So

35:23

we do divide among the children and

35:25

I haven't been in the children program for a very

35:27

long time. So throughout the last like 10

35:29

years

35:29

it's been

35:32

mainly my brothers and sisters taking care of them

35:35

but I always check in and I see them around the Hamlets.

35:37

So what I do know is that we split the

35:42

age group

35:44

so like six to eight is one group and then

35:47

I believe nine, nine to eight nine

35:50

and ten and eleven twelve and it

35:52

depends on each year the

35:55

group of numbers of kids that we have. So

35:58

we We teach them

36:01

how to invite the bell.

36:03

So we use physical

36:06

action as a way of meditation

36:08

with them. So one

36:10

of the principles in Plum Village is,

36:13

whenever all of us, whoever is in Plum

36:15

Village, whenever we hear the sound of the bell,

36:18

everybody stops

36:21

and comes back to the breathing, their

36:23

mindfulness of breathing, to

36:25

bring out the awareness

36:28

of life in the present moment. From

36:30

the youngest child,

36:32

and I would

36:35

even share even the infants

36:37

that are only nine months, practice

36:40

it because collectively everybody

36:43

is still, and coming back to their

36:45

breath, even the infant

36:48

is practicing by his

36:51

observation. So

36:53

for the children, we would teach

36:56

them how to invite the bell for one day, and

36:59

we would share, we would teach them, we

37:01

don't say we hit the bell or we strike

37:03

the bell. We even

37:04

use language, how important language is, and

37:07

we say for us the bell

37:10

is a dharma instrument, as

37:12

well as it is a teacher, as well

37:14

as it

37:15

is a friend. So when we

37:18

want to strike

37:20

the bell, we say we invite the bell.

37:23

We invite the bell to sound so that

37:26

everyone can practice coming back to their

37:28

breathing. So that is one

37:30

example of a teaching that we would offer, and then

37:32

we would instruct them how, and

37:35

so on.

37:36

And then each children would learn

37:38

to be a bell master, and each

37:40

child would have a moment

37:43

if the chance come up in the retreat for them to be a

37:45

bell master. And

37:46

we have these dharma sharing families,

37:49

and we have dinners together, and each facilitator

37:51

always starts with three sounds of

37:53

the bell, and so we would invite a child

37:56

to do it, to practice it right away, and

37:58

the

37:58

child, you know, when they get there, to do this

38:01

offering, they feel so

38:03

seen and so a part

38:06

of something.

38:06

And we would even invite them to read

38:08

a contemplation and so on. Another

38:11

practice is what you just mentioned, the

38:13

four pebbles. The pebble meditation

38:16

is a wonderful

38:18

Dhamma door that our teacher created

38:20

where there is a form you, Thay would

38:23

invite the children to go and find

38:25

four pebbles, each pebble representing an

38:27

element in cultivating

38:29

in our practice such as flower

38:32

fresh, mountain solid,

38:36

still water reflecting and

38:39

space which is freedom, inner space and outer

38:41

space. And we would

38:43

teach them and they would take

38:45

it in, they would understand it. And

38:48

then teaching them

38:50

using stories of the Buddha or stories

38:53

in life about the importance

38:55

of the care for mother earth and

38:59

just

39:00

numerous different ways of

39:02

teaching of kindness, of

39:05

compassion, of speech. And

39:07

then when we do snack meditation,

39:10

like we would teach them

39:13

before receiving to bow and

39:15

then to receive it with two hands and

39:18

then to take a cookie or to take a

39:20

fruit and then wait that

39:22

everybody has one and then we eat

39:25

together. So just a simple

39:28

daily activity

39:30

and we add an element of

39:33

presence and element of care and

39:35

element of awareness

39:38

that others are there with us. And

39:41

then

39:41

a lot of sport. And

39:44

then happy farm, like I mentioned

39:46

walks and then the

39:49

children, they create their own

39:51

subgroups within the

39:53

retreat and it's beautiful how it's formed. And

39:56

also the teenage program

39:57

that manifests as too.

39:59

I think I shared in the last podcast

40:01

how one

40:03

of my highlights of one of the week in the

40:05

retreat was to be with them. And

40:08

we had one group that was all

40:10

the boys and

40:12

you always have alphas

40:15

in the groups. And

40:17

when they are so

40:20

present and so loving and

40:23

so inclusive, it

40:26

gives me so much hope. It gives me so much happiness.

40:29

And we see such good seeds

40:31

that are already existing in the world.

40:34

And so sometimes a child,

40:36

a teenager, an adult, a human

40:39

being, all of these seeds

40:41

that we have as a

40:43

living being, we

40:47

have inherited all of this ancient wisdom,

40:49

it just needs the right landscape

40:53

for it to manifest. And

40:55

sometimes a retreat

40:57

brings out

40:59

the wisest children,

41:01

the wisest

41:02

teenagers and the wisest adult. We

41:05

had this boy, his name is Kai, he's

41:07

only eight years old.

41:08

And it was his first time in Plum Village,

41:11

but his mother is a practitioner. So

41:13

I would say that the mother already has

41:15

transmitted many wisdom to him.

41:17

But when he was in

41:19

this retreat, he

41:23

is being watered by spoken

41:26

words, by

41:28

presence, by connection with children.

41:29

The children, they

41:32

just know you don't cuss here.

41:34

You just use a different language here. And

41:36

they are more observant

41:39

and so on. And if they do use a word

41:42

that is maybe not so

41:44

kind, we

41:47

would not yell at them,

41:49

but we would inform and find

41:51

a way to communicate that that

41:54

language is

41:57

not helpful

41:57

here. And it waters many other seeds

41:59

in the world. in people and we share about the responsibility

42:03

of co-creating this space together. So

42:06

this child Kai,

42:09

I saw him sitting at a pool

42:11

and he was holding a pebble

42:14

and he was definitely deep

42:16

in reflection and I was like so

42:19

curious and I was like, Kai,

42:22

what are you contemplating?

42:25

Eight years old, okay? And he said,

42:27

well,

42:30

I'm holding this pebble

42:32

and if this pebble represents a good

42:34

deed and if I

42:36

throw it in the pond and I

42:38

know it will ripple, then

42:41

it seems like my good deeds

42:43

will have such impact to the whole

42:45

pond.

42:47

So it is important to

42:49

cultivate good deeds, is that right?

42:53

And in my mind, I'm

42:54

like, this is a Zen

42:56

master in my presence and I just wanted

42:58

to bow to him and I wanted to say, teach

43:01

me more, young Zen master, teach me

43:03

more. And I'm so happy I

43:05

get to share it in this podcast because

43:07

it was such a profound

43:10

moment. He wasn't showing off, he

43:13

wasn't trying to be smart or anything,

43:15

he was

43:16

really contemplating and

43:18

his mother was so taken

43:21

back from it and she asked him, did you

43:23

learn that today from the children program? And he said,

43:25

no, it just came up as

43:27

a thought and that

43:29

made me reflect also like, so who

43:32

taught him this? And for me, that's not even important,

43:36

it's about the environment, the

43:38

space that is being co-created

43:41

here. And we had one teenage

43:43

boy this week who was a little

43:46

bit rude

43:47

and the monks were, reflecting

43:52

to see if we should invite him out

43:54

of the program because he was a little

43:56

bit disrespectful to some of our volunteers

43:59

and so on.

43:59

But one brother just

44:02

went up to him and spoke to him like

44:04

a friend and said, look, you

44:08

have a natural quality of leadership

44:11

and all the other boys

44:12

look up to you. So

44:14

your way of being is affecting

44:16

our whole group. And

44:18

I would like to invite you

44:21

to be a responsible

44:23

leader and to support us

44:26

monastics

44:27

in this program. And

44:30

he shifted.

44:32

He changed and he stayed with the program.

44:35

And so sometimes

44:37

it's not about changing

44:40

them.

44:41

It's about seeing them, meeting them

44:44

at where they are and to understand. And

44:46

of course,

44:47

our brother asked, what's troubling

44:49

you? And family

44:52

issue has been troubling

44:55

him and it's made him very angry

44:57

and aggressive. And therefore his

44:59

behavior has been

45:00

very rude and because he

45:02

doesn't know how to handle it. But

45:05

when also we bring back the ball in his

45:07

court, it's like,

45:09

be with us, like be a part of the team.

45:12

And so it's also the way

45:15

of the energy that the monastic

45:17

that brother brought to him was like, I'm

45:19

not here to tell you that you're right or wrong,

45:22

but I'm just showing you some of the qualities

45:24

that you have.

45:25

And can you

45:28

use it with responsibility?

45:30

So

45:32

for me, like this retreat is

45:35

all I'm always learning. We're

45:37

learning as a community. We're learning collectively

45:40

and it's giving insights by just being

45:42

together and the infants.

45:45

I learned so much from

45:46

them and I

45:51

see the way that they're able to

45:53

blossom like a flower. Their

45:55

smiles that they have is

45:56

so genuine and they

45:59

know. who is peaceful.

46:03

They connect to that. I

46:05

met two babies. I've

46:08

never met them. And they just

46:10

offered me some of the brightest smile. And

46:13

it is like an immediate

46:15

connection right away. And

46:17

there was

46:17

this one child, I was sitting with the parents.

46:20

And the parent asked me before they left on

46:23

the second

46:24

week of our retreat, they asked

46:26

me for some advice

46:29

for parents how to manage

46:31

time, to have time for their

46:33

child and to have time for themself. And

46:36

somehow I went into

46:37

a little bit of, I

46:40

think Thay came alive in

46:42

me. And I said, well,

46:45

the first thing I want to share is that already

46:48

in your question, when you're

46:51

dividing the time,

46:53

that is dualistic thinking, that's

46:55

discrimination. For me, your

46:57

child is you. How

47:02

about changing the view when

47:05

you are with the child? That

47:07

is your time. Because

47:10

that is

47:13

you. So that

47:15

when you are with the child, you're giving the

47:17

child your full presence

47:19

and giving yourself to

47:22

the child in that moment, you're also taking care

47:24

of yourself. You're taking care of

47:26

the inner child in you. You're taking

47:28

care of the generations of ancestral

47:31

mothers that have been in your family

47:33

or father or

47:34

parents. And

47:36

it's a deep transmission moment. And

47:39

it can also be a deep healing moment.

47:43

You can be transmitting

47:44

all of the negative habit

47:47

energy that you have received, or

47:49

you can transform all of those

47:51

seeds in this moment by learning

47:54

to be a loving mother, an understanding

47:56

mother, a compassionate father,

47:59

a forgiving father.

47:59

father, compassionate

48:02

and inclusive parent.

48:05

So there's so much happening

48:06

in that moment of you and

48:08

the child. So I've

48:11

learned to see, because my

48:13

life with the community is like this, it's

48:15

like, people

48:18

always ask me, brother, how do you have time for

48:21

yourself? I'm like, well, for me, the time with the

48:23

community is time for myself. And

48:26

when those nugget moments come where

48:29

I do have space for myself, that

48:32

is also time for the community because

48:34

I am caring for myself, therefore

48:36

I'm caring for the community. And as

48:39

parents,

48:41

I would like to shift the narrative

48:43

and

48:44

the way of seeing parenting of like having

48:47

time, like,

48:50

and for all the parents, please have compassion with me. I

48:52

am a monk, I don't have kids like all

48:55

of you, but my

48:58

time with my brothers and sisters, and sometimes

49:01

I do

49:01

feel like a parent, is

49:04

to see, is to remind

49:07

ourselves that moments of deep

49:09

love is time for oneself. Moments

49:12

of care, moments for being with others is

49:14

time for oneself also. And

49:16

when you shift that narrative, your energy changes

49:21

and

49:24

suddenly your love becomes

49:26

more boundless, you're

49:28

channeling and practicing

49:30

non-self, and you're also

49:32

practicing self

49:35

selflessness.

49:36

And that is one of the deepest wisdom

49:39

of Buddhism. And of

49:41

course, it is so important to

49:43

have moments when parents can be

49:45

together and you can be with yourself. And

49:48

those moments will come. And when

49:50

they come, you know how to enjoy and you know

49:52

how to take care and you know how

49:54

to be

49:54

fully there for yourself, but

49:57

not to have like a set schedule

49:59

of like, Like this is

50:03

parent time, this is

50:05

alone time, this is work time, and

50:07

so on and so on and so on. And I feel like that

50:09

kind of structure has divided

50:12

our society so much as well as

50:14

has put

50:17

all of us in different boxes. And I think

50:19

like when Thay holds a child's hand and

50:22

allows the children to be at the front that

50:24

is also breaking the

50:27

system.

50:56

Brother, thank you. And what

50:58

I hear, think I hear you saying in part,

51:02

but just to focus on this for a moment,

51:05

is that people

51:07

often are looking for how

51:09

do they develop their parenting skills.

51:12

And what I hear you

51:14

saying is become

51:17

a mindful practitioner and then you

51:19

will be a

51:20

better parent. And as a parent, outside

51:23

of yourself, if you're not

51:25

actually understanding yourself more, because

51:28

often, and we all do it in our various

51:30

ways, as parents, we project onto

51:32

our children. Sometimes

51:34

we say, sometimes we are hurt

51:37

in the way we were as children and

51:39

being parented, and we say,

51:42

I'm never going to let my child

51:45

suffer the way I have. And then parents

51:47

might overemphasize

51:49

that behavior and actually push them

51:51

in completely the opposite direction. Sometimes

51:56

if a child who's grown up feels

51:58

that they were abandoned as a child, there will be

51:59

they are constantly for their child,

52:02

they will go to the other extreme. And

52:07

I think, you know, the answer to that

52:09

is actually to come back to yourself, to heal

52:11

your own wounds, not

52:13

to live life vicariously.

52:16

I know that my father,

52:19

when he grew up, he had this dream of doing

52:23

law at university and he

52:25

was not able to fulfill that because of the war

52:27

and because of his circumstances.

52:30

And then as

52:31

his children, you know, with his children,

52:34

including myself, I mean, I was the younger,

52:36

so it didn't really affect me, but he wanted everyone

52:39

to do law at university. So he wanted

52:41

everyone in a sense

52:43

to live the life that he

52:45

didn't live, which is wonderful and

52:47

wonderful because he thought that

52:49

would be a great life, but it's not,

52:52

you cannot force your children

52:54

to be someone

52:56

that you want them to be. And

52:58

so maybe this is a good moment rather to talk

53:01

about it in the Tichnetans' 14

53:05

mindfulness trainings. So they're

53:07

five mindfulness trainings and then they're also

53:10

14 mindfulness trainings. That one of

53:12

the trainings talks about

53:15

how to treat children.

53:18

Well, how to treat actually adults, but very much

53:20

includes children. And when

53:22

I read it for the first time, I sort

53:26

of looked very shy to myself

53:29

because I realized that what he said we shouldn't do,

53:31

I had tried them all. And

53:33

so I wonder if, I

53:36

know we discussed this just before we

53:38

started, but I don't know if you have it available

53:41

because actually it would be really good just to

53:44

hear that part, that training

53:46

and just to maybe have

53:48

a moment to reflect on it. This

53:51

is the training, freedom

53:53

of thought, aware

53:56

of the suffering brought about when we impose

53:59

our views on

55:50

door

56:00

is not being respectful. It's

56:03

a very tough place for parents.

56:06

Yeah.

56:07

Yeah, I think this mindfulness

56:09

training, it has many

56:13

teachings in it. And I think

56:15

first, you know, freedom of thought is

56:18

to talk about all of the views

56:21

that we have, what is right and what is wrong,

56:23

what is happiness, what is success. And

56:26

the natural

56:27

pattern that we all

56:30

see is that when

56:33

our own childhood, we

56:35

haven't had something, it becomes

56:39

a big void in our hearts. And

56:41

then when we have children, we want

56:43

them to succeed

56:45

where we failed. And

56:47

this is a very classic

56:50

suffering in a lot of

56:52

Asian families. And Thay

56:55

speaks about it to the Asian community.

56:58

And one of his example was

57:01

a mother who comes to Plum Village a

57:03

lot. And through

57:06

her own practice, she realized that when

57:09

she was young, she always wanted to

57:10

wear a red dress, but

57:13

they never had enough money.

57:14

And her whole life

57:17

has just

57:19

to

57:20

overcome poverty.

57:22

And when she has succeeded

57:24

and she has a child, instead

57:27

of giving the child the freedom of what to

57:29

wear, she always

57:32

imposed the child to wear a red

57:34

dress. To

57:36

the point that one day the child rebels and

57:38

said, I don't want to wear that red dress anymore,

57:41

which in that moment, which is a very,

57:44

very simple

57:47

request, it's just not to wear a red dress.

57:50

The mother felt so betrayed

57:53

and so hurt. And thanks

57:55

to the practice, she realized that

57:57

that love that she thought was

57:59

offering to her child was

58:02

not the freedom that she really wanted

58:04

to offer, but it was her own inner

58:07

child that was

58:09

suffering. And so

58:11

we have to be as parents,

58:17

we have to have freedom of

58:20

allowing openness to be there.

58:22

Of course the child is you, so

58:24

the child has a lot of your seeds. And

58:27

maybe yes, some of them will continue

58:29

your, some of your wonderful talents.

58:32

But at the same time, some of them will

58:34

want to expand in a different

58:36

field because they also have seeds from their

58:38

whole ancestral lineage, which

58:41

is generations to generations,

58:43

from generations to from generations. So

58:47

love can be very suffocating,

58:50

but love can also be very

58:52

healing and very free. So

58:55

freedom of thought is where there

58:57

should be understanding. There needs to be

59:00

a dialogue in any

59:02

relationship also to our children. And

59:04

sometimes we forget, no, that

59:07

we have

59:08

all of the answers, so

59:10

they just listen to us. And that's

59:13

a wrong view. And of

59:15

course, the other side

59:18

is, however, we will learn to

59:20

help those that go of wrong views

59:22

and let go

59:23

of wrong actions. So

59:25

in a

59:28

bodhisattva vow, when

59:30

you go to a temple, in

59:33

the Mahayana tradition, you see these two statues.

59:35

One is of a demon

59:37

with swords, has a horn,

59:39

but it also

59:41

has like dharma instrument. And

59:44

then one that is very kind, very

59:46

loving, has

59:48

like holding flowers and etc.

59:51

It's to say we have to balance the two. And

59:54

sometimes we do have to be

59:55

strict, we have to have firmness. Sometimes

59:59

we say, Love

1:00:01

can be very bitter sometimes because

1:00:04

like when we eat bitter melon,

1:00:06

it's not tasty, but it's very

1:00:09

good for you. Sometimes some

1:00:11

of the medications that we

1:00:12

take, herbal or Western,

1:00:15

it doesn't taste good, but it is exactly

1:00:18

what we need in that moment. So

1:00:21

there is structure

1:00:23

that is important like in the monastic

1:00:26

life that we have. If a monastic

1:00:28

is not behaving like a monk,

1:00:31

we will talk about it. If

1:00:33

they are doing things

1:00:36

that is against

1:00:38

our practice and our vows,

1:00:41

sometimes we have to disrobe a monastic.

1:00:45

We have to have firmness. We have to have clarity

1:00:49

for right action in order

1:00:52

to guide that person in the right direction.

1:00:56

Friendship is also a kind of love.

1:00:59

Sometimes I see myself in my relationship with

1:01:01

Thay as a friend. Sometimes

1:01:04

I suffer and

1:01:06

what Thay tells me is very hard to hear,

1:01:08

but it's the truth. Where is it coming

1:01:10

from? It's coming from love. It's coming from experience.

1:01:14

It's coming from the wish for

1:01:16

me to succeed, for me to grow.

1:01:20

So there is

1:01:22

space for us to have strictness,

1:01:25

rules, and also love and care.

1:01:32

So there has to be a very

1:01:36

beautiful dance between all of this

1:01:38

and mindfulness as a foundation, right

1:01:40

mindfulness. Like you said, Jo,

1:01:44

a mindful

1:01:45

parent can

1:01:47

help themselves as well

1:01:49

as help the next generation. Thay used

1:01:52

to tell us in David talks

1:01:54

to tell all the parents, Don't

1:01:58

expect Plum Village like a transformation. box,

1:02:00

like you put a child in one end and you expect

1:02:02

him to come out like an angel,

1:02:04

you know, and sometimes there's

1:02:06

that intention

1:02:09

to bring the children to the monastery

1:02:11

and expect us to change them, but that's

1:02:15

not how it works, we're

1:02:18

here to water the good seeds

1:02:20

in them. Yeah, thank you

1:02:22

brother, and actually

1:02:25

children are a wonderful bell of mindfulness,

1:02:28

because actually they press all of our buttons,

1:02:31

because they often break

1:02:33

the rules in the way that adults don't with each other,

1:02:36

they speak sometimes truths

1:02:38

that are uncomfortable and that we

1:02:40

don't want to hear, and

1:02:44

you know what I think I fail to do

1:02:46

sometimes, and I think if I hadn't, I

1:02:48

mean this is the classic thing about parenting,

1:02:50

that if you had your kids when you're old

1:02:52

and wiser, then you would hopefully

1:02:55

behave in a different way, but I know

1:02:58

that sometimes when

1:03:01

an

1:03:02

anger or

1:03:05

a frustration arose in me, that

1:03:08

I had no capacity of dealing with it

1:03:10

at that time,

1:03:11

and so then it came out as

1:03:14

a wish to punish,

1:03:15

and

1:03:18

especially when there's that sort of perceived,

1:03:20

if there's a perception of a difference in

1:03:22

authority, I'm the adult, you're the

1:03:24

child, I have the authority, you

1:03:26

should do what you're told, you know, you're

1:03:28

immediately not

1:03:31

giving space to listen

1:03:33

deeply, listen to the child, because it's power

1:03:36

over rather than a recognition of community

1:03:38

with, and

1:03:41

the fact that sometimes children are

1:03:43

giving us our best opportunity to to

1:03:46

see where our wounds are and to work

1:03:49

with them, and if we

1:03:51

do that more effectively, then we

1:03:53

can be present for the kids, but

1:03:55

if we don't,

1:03:56

then actually it creates

1:03:58

separation. Yeah, you know,

1:04:02

there's one mother who came and she shared

1:04:04

with me that

1:04:07

Her child said, mother,

1:04:10

you work so much.

1:04:13

I want to have more connection

1:04:15

with you and

1:04:16

that broke her.

1:04:20

She cried and she

1:04:22

realized that in that moment

1:04:25

She wants to be different than her mother

1:04:28

because her mother works so much in

1:04:30

her lifetime and she vowed

1:04:32

not to walk in those footsteps

1:04:35

and it is exactly what she did and

1:04:37

That child became the

1:04:39

bell of mindfulness for her and

1:04:42

when that child said that

1:04:44

She said this year we're going to Plum Village.

1:04:46

I know I've said so many times

1:04:49

we should go to Plum Village, we should go to Plum Village,

1:04:51

we should go to Plum Village and And

1:04:54

finally they came

1:04:56

together And it's

1:04:58

moments like this, you know, if

1:05:01

we listen also to our children

1:05:05

We can we can wake

1:05:07

up from our own cycle of suffering.

1:05:09

Yes, so for me, you know

1:05:12

children are also

1:05:14

Wonderful companions on this

1:05:16

path. Yes But the one

1:05:18

one other area I just want

1:05:20

to bring in is Because

1:05:23

actually

1:05:24

What we're doing is having actually a broad discussion around

1:05:27

children. Yeah In

1:05:30

all sorts of ways and I just want

1:05:32

to bring in Thay's teaching because

1:05:34

teaching say because you

1:05:36

a couple of times mentioned about the

1:05:39

inner child and And

1:05:41

often sort of work around healing our inner child

1:05:44

is associated purely with sort of Western

1:05:46

psychology rather than Zen

1:05:49

Buddhism

1:05:52

One of the things that was very

1:05:54

clear to me when I came

1:05:56

into the orbit of

1:05:58

the Plum Village tradition is that

1:06:01

Thay greatly

1:06:05

uses this understanding

1:06:08

for our healing. And he often

1:06:11

will do meditations around,

1:06:14

you know, that seeing our father

1:06:16

and our mother as five-year-olds.

1:06:19

And

1:06:22

my observation of that and engagement

1:06:25

is it's a deep healing

1:06:27

pathway. Because

1:06:31

often when we are looking

1:06:33

at, let's say, our parents or

1:06:35

someone else in authority, someone

1:06:38

who maybe has caused us harm, that

1:06:41

we

1:06:42

sort of see them only in

1:06:44

that

1:06:45

association of adults. And we're unable

1:06:48

to connect to our compassion

1:06:50

or to understand why

1:06:53

it is that they may be behaving in that

1:06:55

way.

1:06:57

And yet when we are able to see

1:07:00

those people as little children

1:07:03

who may have suffered, may have been

1:07:06

left alone, may have been abused

1:07:08

in some way, then

1:07:11

actually what naturally arises in us is

1:07:14

a compassion and a wish

1:07:16

to support and love. So

1:07:20

it'd be really helpful,

1:07:22

I think, brother, for our listeners

1:07:25

to have a sort of understanding of how

1:07:28

did Thay... Is this a

1:07:30

sort of Buddhist tradition or

1:07:33

actually when Thay came to the West, did he

1:07:35

actually see that this was a particular

1:07:37

issue in the West and actually has brought in some

1:07:40

psychological tools? But it's something

1:07:42

that is very powerful, is

1:07:45

used often and seems to have a deep impact

1:07:47

here.

1:07:48

Yes, I would say that the

1:07:50

wisdom is very ancient, but

1:07:53

the articulation

1:07:56

is from

1:07:57

Thay's...

1:08:00

learning of being in

1:08:02

the West and seeing very

1:08:05

clearly that

1:08:08

the suffering

1:08:09

of most of us

1:08:12

has roots to our childhood and

1:08:16

our

1:08:18

way of being, acting,

1:08:21

it all has a channel from

1:08:23

the happiness or the suffering

1:08:25

of childhood.

1:08:27

And we and many trauma

1:08:29

therapists now speak about that

1:08:31

and many psychiatrists

1:08:35

help people link to the

1:08:37

source of suffering. But for us, that's ancient

1:08:39

wisdom, which is suffering

1:08:41

and the root of our suffering. Where

1:08:44

does our suffering come from? And it's

1:08:47

a meditation that is

1:08:49

the main energy

1:08:54

why the Buddha seek the path to

1:08:57

liberate oneself from suffering.

1:09:00

So our teacher,

1:09:03

when he started

1:09:05

to establish the Plumvish

1:09:07

community and work with so

1:09:10

many families that come, he

1:09:12

realized of that inner child

1:09:14

wound that everyone has. And

1:09:17

he used the age of five as our meditation,

1:09:19

but it can be eight years old, nine years old,

1:09:22

or even four years old, and not

1:09:24

to be caught by that. And what

1:09:27

you explained, Joe, is exactly that meditation

1:09:30

is not about, I know

1:09:32

sometimes it's

1:09:34

so hard to forgive the actions

1:09:37

of our parents or the

1:09:40

actions of our maybe abuser or

1:09:47

a perpetrator, right? Yeah. So

1:09:50

I've had to work on this a lot.

1:09:52

And what

1:09:55

we learned in Buddhism is that

1:09:57

when somebody makes a

1:09:59

someone else's suffer is because

1:10:02

they have suffered so much and they

1:10:04

haven't transformed

1:10:05

it. Therefore, they

1:10:09

only know the way to feel

1:10:13

good about themselves is to see

1:10:15

other hurt so that they feel

1:10:19

affiliated towards, because,

1:10:21

oh, I suffer and if you suffer,

1:10:23

it makes me feel good.

1:10:25

And all of us, we have this in us.

1:10:27

It's not just the

1:10:30

ones who have hurt us because we have received

1:10:32

that. So there's a deep part that we have in us

1:10:34

too. And meditation

1:10:36

is to recognize

1:10:38

that wound. And

1:10:40

first we work on ourselves. We

1:10:43

start to accept our own

1:10:46

wounds that we have that we've been neglecting.

1:10:49

The inner child that has been

1:10:51

crying and that needs care, to

1:10:54

tell the child that

1:10:57

it can live deeply in this present moment

1:10:59

with who you are now and to teach

1:11:02

the child that you are enough,

1:11:04

that you do have the capacity

1:11:07

of loving, of protecting, of healing, of

1:11:09

transforming. And then the

1:11:11

next step

1:11:13

in our meditation, it

1:11:15

is also to

1:11:15

reflect on the one who have hurt

1:11:18

us. And it's

1:11:20

to see that they

1:11:25

are somebody who has suffered

1:11:27

and maybe in their childhood, they

1:11:30

have been abused, they have been hurt, they have

1:11:32

been bullied, they have been

1:11:35

misused,

1:11:39

they have been misused and they don't know

1:11:41

what love is. And so when

1:11:43

we have understanding,

1:11:46

we can start to

1:11:49

generate a mind that

1:11:53

can see them as a human being that suffers.

1:11:56

Therefore, our heart, our soul, our heart,

1:11:59

our soul, our own being,

1:12:03

we become more gentle

1:12:06

towards that person. Not

1:12:08

to say, I accept you for what you've

1:12:10

done, but it is

1:12:13

you act because you suffer

1:12:16

and there's ignorance. And I

1:12:18

can pray that you find somebody

1:12:21

who teaches you to love, that teaches you to

1:12:23

transform. And I hope that

1:12:25

you

1:12:25

in this lifetime have the opportunity

1:12:28

to begin anew so

1:12:33

that you can experience love

1:12:36

in your heart. And

1:12:38

so in that

1:12:40

transformation of mind, I

1:12:43

still see that person as a human

1:12:45

being and I do have the capacity

1:12:49

to love them.

1:12:50

I've even gone far enough to

1:12:52

have the capacity to even forgive

1:12:54

those who have

1:12:57

really hurt me. And

1:13:01

because that forgiveness is

1:13:03

a scar

1:13:05

that I have healed in me.

1:13:07

So that when I see their children, I

1:13:10

don't see

1:13:12

their parents. And

1:13:15

I still see them for who they are and

1:13:17

for all of the wonderful conditions that

1:13:19

they are have inherited.

1:13:21

And I want to water the

1:13:23

good seeds in them and maybe help

1:13:26

also transform the suffering that

1:13:28

they have received from their parents.

1:13:29

So this work

1:13:32

of the five-year-old inner

1:13:34

child on oneself, but also

1:13:37

reflecting it

1:13:39

on our parents also

1:13:42

allows us to have acceptance. For

1:13:44

example,

1:13:46

some of the people who

1:13:49

have been such a part of my

1:13:52

life who... But

1:13:54

I know in this lifetime they won't transform

1:13:56

and I've accepted it. They're

1:13:58

just so at the attached to their suffering

1:14:01

and they are so used to their

1:14:03

way of life. They are not

1:14:06

ready and willing to let go. And

1:14:09

a part of me is,

1:14:12

I wish that they would see

1:14:14

the light and change, but I also

1:14:17

accept. And therefore, every

1:14:19

time I'm with them, I will

1:14:21

water good seeds in them. And

1:14:24

so, it is to transform

1:14:26

also this mentality of trying to

1:14:29

fix everything.

1:14:30

Not everything is fixable.

1:14:34

So this is, I know everyone hearing

1:14:36

this, it can be very challenging. But

1:14:40

it's something to meditate on, it's something to reflect

1:14:42

on, because

1:14:45

in this moment, we have

1:14:47

suffered and the Buddha has taught us of this teaching

1:14:50

of the second arrow. We have

1:14:52

experienced something, but if we

1:14:54

don't remove that arrow,

1:14:57

that wound will keep bleeding and

1:14:59

we will always be in pain. And

1:15:02

most of the time, what we also do is we add

1:15:04

more arrows to it. We

1:15:07

add through our way of thinking, through

1:15:09

our

1:15:11

own action from the leak

1:15:13

of that pain. So we add more

1:15:16

arrows to the suffering and it's exactly

1:15:19

that same spot. So we suffer

1:15:21

even more. So

1:15:23

the meditation on suffering,

1:15:25

instead of

1:15:28

trying to change the person who has hurt us,

1:15:31

we forget to take care of ourselves first,

1:15:34

to heal, to pull that

1:15:36

arrow out, to

1:15:38

mend the wound and then to

1:15:40

let that wound heal and then

1:15:42

to

1:15:43

learn from that wound and have

1:15:45

more loving action. But

1:15:48

a lot of times, we

1:15:49

don't see that and then we

1:15:51

act from that and we create more and more suffering.

1:15:54

Our teacher always says,

1:15:58

we don't need to create...

1:15:59

suffering,

1:16:01

more suffering, there's enough suffering when we look

1:16:03

inside of ourself

1:16:04

and hell is not exactly

1:16:06

somewhere outside. It

1:16:09

is present and all

1:16:11

of us who are practitioners by

1:16:13

our transformation is the transformation

1:16:15

of

1:16:17

hell that is present and

1:16:19

heaven is not somewhere in the sky or

1:16:22

it is not after death but

1:16:24

heaven

1:16:25

is the transformation

1:16:27

of our journey of our healing

1:16:30

process and the love and the

1:16:33

happiness and the peace that we can

1:16:35

cultivate today. Beautiful,

1:17:05

thank you brother and just to add

1:17:07

one thing to that and

1:17:10

I see this in a number of people I work

1:17:12

with is that when people

1:17:14

contemplate on their childhood what

1:17:18

they're doing is contemplating with the context

1:17:20

of being an adult where you can

1:17:22

look back and you can say oh yes

1:17:25

well that happened but also but at the

1:17:27

time I know this person was finding

1:17:29

difficulty and you know yes

1:17:31

I did get over it and I've built

1:17:34

a career

1:17:34

so I'm fine and

1:17:36

I find what's very helpful is to go

1:17:39

back as a child

1:17:41

to know yourself as a child, to

1:17:43

know what it's like to feel that

1:17:45

deep pain of rejection and

1:17:48

not to get stuck in that but firstly to

1:17:50

really feel what these feelings

1:17:53

are like because I think that's why they

1:17:56

cause this pain

1:17:58

and suffering throughout our lives. lives is

1:18:01

because it's like original pain. It's

1:18:03

like, yeah, Tye talks about the original pain

1:18:05

of giving birth even to be

1:18:07

born. They're

1:18:09

suffering because they're separation and

1:18:12

there's a feeling of, you know, of being

1:18:14

removed from your mother's womb.

1:18:17

And so, so, and that pain is

1:18:21

so strong because we have no context

1:18:24

for it and as children we often don't have any context.

1:18:27

And

1:18:29

I once did the meditation of imagining

1:18:32

my parents as five years and

1:18:34

also imagining myself as a five-year-old with

1:18:36

them.

1:18:38

And that took

1:18:40

away all the sort

1:18:42

of power issues, age issues,

1:18:44

authority issues, and essentially we're

1:18:47

all children. You know, at the core

1:18:49

we all have this, as you spoke

1:18:51

at the beginning about, this wish, this

1:18:54

curiosity, this depth

1:18:56

of knowing without an

1:18:58

intellectual knowing. We all have those capacities

1:19:01

and when we meet

1:19:03

at the level of children with

1:19:05

children, then there is friendship,

1:19:08

there's openness, there's,

1:19:10

there isn't even the need necessarily

1:19:12

for forgiveness because actually

1:19:14

there's just, because the problem

1:19:16

hasn't arisen at that moment.

1:19:19

And

1:19:20

the other thing, brother, is, and

1:19:22

we, we of course say this many times

1:19:25

in this broadcast, but always with

1:19:27

a different flavor, is

1:19:29

that,

1:19:31

you know, the heart of

1:19:32

mindfulness is the being in

1:19:35

the present moment. And

1:19:38

that we heal the past in the present moment.

1:19:40

I think a lot of people feel that you have to go back

1:19:43

into the past and try and heal it in the

1:19:45

past. Well, we need to understand the past,

1:19:48

but we can only heal it in the present moment.

1:19:51

And when we do heal it or start to heal

1:19:53

in the present moment, then we change

1:19:55

the future. And I very much

1:19:57

see that in our relationship.

1:20:00

to us as children and to if

1:20:02

you're a parent to the children you have,

1:20:05

is that when you're able in the present moment to

1:20:07

understand the pain of oneself

1:20:10

as a child and to start healing it, then

1:20:13

we start to let go of it in

1:20:16

our own children at whatever age they are, because

1:20:18

what tends to happen is we pass on the pain

1:20:20

and we've talked about generational pain.

1:20:24

Unless something is healed it gets passed on

1:20:26

because the next child will witness that

1:20:28

pain and will soak it up either

1:20:30

because they think that's normal behaviour or because

1:20:33

they try and swallow it from their parents to take

1:20:36

it away from their parents because they want their parents to

1:20:38

be happy and that's their

1:20:40

key wishes for their parents to be happy not for themselves

1:20:43

to be happy.

1:20:44

So that actually I find a great

1:20:47

motivation for people is

1:20:49

that when they recognise

1:20:51

they're doing their own healing, they're not only doing

1:20:53

their own healing, they're healing the past,

1:20:56

so they're actually healing the wound

1:20:58

that was felt in maybe their parents

1:21:00

or their grandparents or their great grandparents and

1:21:03

then they're changing the future especially

1:21:06

with their own children because you

1:21:08

don't need to pass

1:21:10

it on anymore

1:21:12

and your children will see that

1:21:14

you're different and that it's not normal,

1:21:16

it's not

1:21:17

something they have to take on to save them. So

1:21:20

I find that sort of just, you know

1:21:23

so many of Zen

1:21:26

practices, Thais practices, the Plum Village

1:21:28

tradition actually give us the possibility

1:21:31

to deeply develop our

1:21:34

relationship with our children at whatever age.

1:21:36

You know I came to the practice, not

1:21:39

that, you know I've done other self-development

1:21:42

but I came to the practice

1:21:44

when my children were already in their teens

1:21:49

and it's taken me, you

1:21:52

know it's I think the last

1:21:54

episode we just said there are no quick fixes so it's taken

1:21:56

me time to develop these practices.

1:21:59

time I make and move forward,

1:22:02

I'm able to be with my children

1:22:05

in a new way, and in a way

1:22:07

that

1:22:08

gives them more space, allows

1:22:10

me to love them for who they are, allows

1:22:13

me to offer tender love,

1:22:15

but not to believe that

1:22:17

they should

1:22:18

be

1:22:19

in a, they should act in this way

1:22:22

or that way, but just to be

1:22:24

present for them.

1:22:25

So I've come late

1:22:27

to an understanding, but as

1:22:30

I say to people I work with, it doesn't

1:22:33

matter when you come to it, it doesn't

1:22:35

matter whether you're 20 or 30 or 40 or even 60 or 70, at

1:22:39

any age we can

1:22:42

start that healing journey that

1:22:45

heals us, heals the past and

1:22:47

actually supports our children.

1:22:51

Wow,

1:22:55

Brother thank you for that, I think we

1:22:57

actually

1:22:58

chose just, we were sitting

1:23:00

in front of the microphones and saying what should we

1:23:02

talk about today and we, and I thought

1:23:04

well we're in the middle of the children's and

1:23:07

family retreats, so maybe we should talk about that, but it's gone

1:23:09

of course in a thousand wonderful directions,

1:23:12

but always coming back to the

1:23:14

heart of the teachings. So

1:23:17

Brother thank you for your wisdom and

1:23:20

for the stories of Thay, and

1:23:23

your own stories, it's so wonderful, we know that

1:23:26

we often learn best when we are hearing

1:23:28

stories and when the

1:23:31

stories touch us deeply is

1:23:33

often when we learn more than by reading a book,

1:23:35

so thank you for those sharings. So

1:23:38

Brother,

1:23:39

rather I know you normally do a live

1:23:42

guided meditation, but there actually

1:23:44

is on the Plum Village app a

1:23:47

meditation of

1:23:49

the five year old, so maybe

1:23:52

we should just take that from the

1:23:54

Plum Village app, we'll add it in here, but

1:23:56

if you want to listen to it again you

1:23:59

can.

1:23:59

find it with many other meditations on

1:24:02

the Plum Village app.

1:24:30

You written

1:25:01

in, I see myself

1:25:05

as a five-year-old child. With

1:25:09

an eye smile, I'm

1:25:13

the five-year-old child in me. A

1:25:26

five-year-old child is always vulnerable.

1:25:30

Flungible. And

1:25:36

he or she can get hurt very easily.

1:25:40

So you have to handle the five-year-old

1:25:42

child in a very gentle way. If

1:25:46

the five-year-old child has

1:25:48

a flower get hurt, it

1:25:50

wouldn't stay for a long time. And

1:25:56

most of us have been five

1:25:59

years old. and

1:26:01

the inner child in us is still alive.

1:26:08

And the little child in

1:26:10

us, five years old, may

1:26:13

still have

1:26:15

wounds within.

1:26:18

That is why in this meditation, we

1:26:21

go home and touch the five-year-old

1:26:24

child in us, the

1:26:26

five-year-old child that may be deeply

1:26:29

wounded, that he has neglected

1:26:32

for a long time. The

1:26:37

five-year-old child in us always tries

1:26:39

to call on us to pay

1:26:41

attention to him or to her

1:26:45

because he is so busy, he

1:26:48

has had no time to go back to him or her.

1:26:53

That is a pity. This

1:26:57

morning we have an opportunity.

1:27:07

Written in, I

1:27:10

see myself as a five-year-old

1:27:12

child. Written

1:27:15

now as my old

1:27:18

five-year-old child in me with compassion.

1:27:22

In, five-year-old

1:27:24

child out

1:27:27

smiling with compassion. Thank

1:27:52

you. Now

1:28:06

let us practice the next exercise.

1:28:10

Breathing in, I see

1:28:13

my father as a five-year-old

1:28:15

child. You

1:28:19

have not seen your father as a five-year-old

1:28:21

child, but he had been a five-year-old

1:28:24

child before he became a five-year-old child.

1:28:27

And as a five-year-old boy, he was

1:28:30

also vulnerable, fragile,

1:28:36

and he could get hurt very easily

1:28:38

by your grandpa, by

1:28:40

your grandma, and by other

1:28:42

people. So

1:28:46

if sometimes he is rough, it's difficult.

1:28:49

That is because of that, because

1:28:51

that is because he had been

1:28:54

hurt as a five-year-old

1:28:56

child. And if you understand that,

1:29:00

you don't get angry at him anymore.

1:29:03

You have compassion to him because

1:29:05

he had been a five-year-old child and

1:29:07

he may get a lot of

1:29:10

suffering, get hurt deeply

1:29:12

during the time he was a five-year-old child.

1:29:17

If you have a family album, if

1:29:22

in that album there

1:29:24

is a picture of your father, five-year-old,

1:29:27

that is a good object

1:29:29

of meditation, look at him

1:29:32

when he was five-year-old and breathe in

1:29:34

and out and see the

1:29:36

five-year-old child that

1:29:39

is still alive in you and

1:29:41

in you also. And

1:29:44

when you understand that

1:29:46

his five-year-old child, he suffered

1:29:48

very much, he got hurt deeply and

1:29:51

very open, he would understand

1:29:53

why he had behaved, sometimes

1:29:55

he had behaved very

1:29:58

rude. and

1:30:00

suddenly your anger

1:30:03

will melt and

1:30:05

you have compassion and

1:30:08

you feel much better. I

1:30:20

see my father as a 5

1:30:22

year old child. With

1:30:26

a note, I smile to

1:30:28

that 5 year old boy who

1:30:31

was my father. Let

1:30:34

us practice together. Father, 5

1:30:39

year old boy, smiling

1:30:42

to father with

1:30:45

compassion.

1:31:07

Let us practice together. Breathing

1:31:22

in, I see my mother as

1:31:25

a 5 year old girl. Breathing

1:31:28

out, I smile to

1:31:31

that 5 year old girl that

1:31:33

had been my mother. When

1:31:39

my mother was 5 years old, she

1:31:41

was also vulnerable, fragile,

1:31:44

and she may get hurt, wounded

1:31:47

very easily. And

1:31:52

she may not have had a teacher

1:31:56

or a friend who helped heal. That's

1:31:59

why the wound is broken. And the pain continues

1:32:01

in her. That is why

1:32:03

sometimes she behaves not

1:32:07

very kindly to you. You

1:32:10

understand because

1:32:12

she had not been able to heal

1:32:16

the pain in her. And

1:32:18

if you can see your mother as a five-year-old

1:32:21

vulnerable, Prasho,

1:32:24

you understand and you can

1:32:26

forgive her very easily with

1:32:28

compassion. The

1:32:31

five-year-old will, while

1:32:33

being your mother, always alive

1:32:36

in her and in

1:32:38

you. Breathing

1:32:46

in, I see my mother as

1:32:49

a five-year-old. Breathing

1:32:52

out, I smile to that wounded five-year-old

1:32:56

who was my mother. Mother

1:33:00

as a five-year-old,

1:33:04

smiling to mother

1:33:07

as a five-year-old. With

1:33:09

compassion.

1:33:38

You So

1:34:16

thank you dear listeners for joining

1:34:18

us today. If you've enjoyed

1:34:20

it you can find all of our previous episodes

1:34:23

on the Plum Village app and also

1:34:25

on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and all

1:34:27

other podcast platforms.

1:34:30

If you like it again it'd be lovely if

1:34:32

you could subscribe also to the Way Out

1:34:35

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1:34:41

yes constructive feedback may be the best

1:34:43

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1:34:45

people can learn from

1:34:48

what you've learned. And you can

1:34:50

also find all previous guided meditation

1:34:53

in the on the go section of the Plum

1:34:55

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1:34:57

is co-produced by Global Optimism

1:35:00

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brother. See you next time.

1:35:50

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

1:36:10

The way out is in.