0:03

This. Summer was a wash out. For

0:05

large parts of England and Northern Ireland,

0:07

July was the wettest since records began.

0:10

Flash floods had become commonplace

0:12

and scorching temperatures normalized. Our.

0:15

Climate is changing and the population of

0:17

the world is already on the move.

0:20

Professor. New adjunct professor Human Geography

0:22

at the University of Exeter is the

0:25

man at the coalface. Of all of

0:27

this has been examining how climate change

0:29

is increasingly forcing people to move and

0:32

adapt for years. Climate.

0:34

Change is no respecter of

0:36

borders. It. Is a global

0:39

international issue. An

0:41

effective analysis and above all, a response

0:43

has to be international. And. News.

0:45

Been doing just that. For

0:48

example, he's working in Bangladesh

0:50

exploring what make certain cities

0:52

climate resilient and some not.

0:54

In. The port city of Chittagong. he

0:57

spent positive examples. The city planning

0:59

with planners have reached out to

1:01

newly arrived migrant populations to integrate

1:03

their knees into the changing cityscape.

1:06

Best. Just physical changes that Neal is

1:09

been studying. For. Climate disasters such

1:11

as flooding can cause financial turmoil

1:13

over a family. They can also

1:16

reek long term psychological harm. His

1:19

team at Exeter University of undertaken a

1:21

long term study of people living in

1:23

the summer set levels to find out

1:25

how their mental health was affected by

1:27

persistent flooding. Climate.

1:30

Change is now very real. Perhaps

1:32

we can no longer return to

1:34

the Halcyon days. We were guaranteed

1:36

some sunshine in July, but then

1:38

how can we adapt where the

1:41

assets is? Professor New idea and

1:43

thanks for joining us on that

1:45

we society for Gus. Thank

1:48

you and a drill And thank you for that introduction.

1:51

That. Is cut to the chase and

1:53

refocus of nine billion people on the

1:55

planet. By. The middle of

1:57

the century. Two billion Africa.

1:59

We. That deserts are getting

2:02

larger? How many people.

2:04

Do. You expect to move or

2:06

his movement just within the territory

2:08

to jurisdiction it means give us

2:10

some sense of that she the

2:13

magnitude of what's ahead of us.

2:16

First of all, let's say that don't

2:18

forget that one and seven people, depending

2:20

on highway define migration. One in seven

2:23

people on the planet have already moved

2:25

during their lifetime, and so we've got

2:27

to see this or recognize that you

2:29

mean for sound a country owes You

2:32

mean from country to to country and

2:34

within their own country. International Eight: The

2:36

start of international migrants is about three

2:38

percent of the world's population at the

2:41

minute. that's been fairly stable, despite the

2:43

globalizing economy's been fairly stable for. Thirty

2:45

or forty years at sort of

2:48

those up and down depending on

2:50

open borders, free movement, all sorts

2:52

of issues, and so I guess.

2:54

First of all, let's. You

2:56

a record breaking up recognize that people

2:58

do move on that that movement has

3:00

brought major social progress. Probably the single

3:03

biggest number if you put it together

3:05

of people moving is from rural China

3:07

to urban China over the last. Thirty

3:10

or forty years that's probably in

3:12

the level of two hundred million

3:14

people just with an account rates

3:16

on that's been associated with a

3:18

substantial significant economic growth of within

3:20

not country and stress as well

3:23

and stress on the whole and

3:25

the movement towards him or urbanized

3:27

world brings its own challenges. So

3:29

you're absolutely right to point out

3:31

that climate change or implied in

3:33

your presence of climate change is

3:35

going to be a big factor

3:37

cause you stress on this growing

3:40

population. am honored population dot

3:42

will be increasingly urban i many

3:44

people would be moving because of

3:47

climate change a substantial number certainly

3:49

some of the protections even agita

3:52

displacement because of weather related extreme

3:54

events like you've mentioned while far

3:56

floods heat waves at over the

3:59

next decade are quite substantial.

4:01

But they've seen a hundred million, 500 million,

4:03

less than that, more than that? No, probably

4:06

in the hundred million range. That's certainly some

4:08

of the World Bank's estimates and that sort

4:10

of thing. But put that in

4:12

the context of the underlying dominant

4:14

flows of people. It may well amplify

4:16

the flows of people, the migration flows

4:18

that are actually going on at the

4:21

minute. Only a small, a

4:23

relatively small proportion of which are international

4:25

flows, i.e. across a jurisdictional border. But

4:29

I think the key thing that we have

4:31

found in our research, looking

4:33

across all the evidence, in some

4:35

senses the problem isn't going to be too

4:38

much migration, too much displacement because

4:40

of climate change. But actually populations that

4:42

are immobile populations are in effect trapped

4:45

in place and don't have the

4:47

capacity to move. Perhaps because

4:49

of climate change we would benefit from more movement,

4:51

but actually we're not going to see that. If

4:54

you take some of the most populous countries in the world, I

4:56

mean Brazil, Nigeria,

5:00

China, India, Indonesia, what

5:02

you're telling us is

5:05

that people are moving within those countries,

5:07

not really between them. That's

5:09

the first point. And the second point is more

5:12

people should be moving within those

5:14

countries because they're trapped in

5:16

areas that are flooding or areas that are too hot or

5:19

areas that are becoming desert or whatever it might be. Is

5:21

that your message? That is

5:23

pretty accurate description of the situation

5:25

in many parts of the world.

5:28

This is not an easy message,

5:31

particularly for many

5:33

governments. They look at their territories, they look at

5:35

their cities, they look at their rural populations and

5:39

have some ambivalence, let's say,

5:41

towards growing cities,

5:43

towards the population of rural areas. But

5:45

many of these trends are ongoing and

5:48

some of them will be amplified actually

5:50

because of the impacts of climate change.

5:52

There's a double problem, isn't there? I

5:54

mean, in your work, I mean, you

5:56

identify the problem people are living in.

6:00

rural areas where there's either too much

6:02

water or too little water. That's one

6:04

problem. But another problem is

6:06

actually they migrate to cities and

6:08

then you get, I mean, cities themselves get

6:10

under stress because of climate change. Now that

6:12

I think is probably less understandable to our

6:14

listeners. I mean, they probably get it that

6:17

actually if there's a drought, that's a problem

6:19

for a farmer or a floods a problem

6:21

for a farmer. They probably don't get

6:23

it that the city is a problem potentially as

6:26

a result of climate change. Well,

6:28

I think if you've experienced 40

6:30

degrees in central London, maybe not

6:32

summer, but in other summers, you

6:35

will begin to see the infrastructure

6:37

and the just the the

6:40

discomfort, the thermal discomfort that you feel

6:42

because of that. You can't sleep. I

6:44

can't sleep. Which is why what a

6:47

heatwave warning in the

6:49

UK looks like it's five days

6:51

with a maximum temperature. It's different across

6:54

the different regions of the UK, but

6:56

a 28 degree maximum. But

6:58

it's actually an 18 degree minimum

7:01

for five consecutive nights because actually the

7:03

diurnal range, the difference between daytime and

7:05

nighttime temperatures makes a huge difference in

7:07

terms of thermal comfort and

7:10

people can't sleep. Their bodies get stressed

7:12

physiologically. There's all sorts of impacts

7:14

on it. So I think the

7:16

urban experience of the risk of

7:18

climate change are pretty visceral

7:21

and and experienced when when we do. But actually

7:23

the projections of those or the the knowledge

7:25

of what those risks are going to do are

7:29

you're right, probably underappreciated,

7:31

let's say, certainly for

7:34

various cities and probably at the for cities

7:36

sort of universally or, you know, throughout the

7:38

world. Now, I mean, I'm sitting

7:40

in front of one of the we are

7:42

listening to, I don't know, over sell

7:45

you, but you are one of the world experts in

7:47

this territory. I mean, you work in associated

7:50

with top people in Sweden, top people in

7:53

Spain, you work

7:55

in Bangladesh, you work in Ghana. I

7:58

mean, you what is the most impacts

10:00

of climate change to the region, the Bay of

10:02

Bengal region and the rest of it. It's very

10:04

vivid, isn't it? I mean, if the Himalayan ice

10:07

cap starts to melt, I mean, the impact on

10:09

the gadget is going to be pretty considerable. I

10:11

mean, it will flood and

10:17

then shrink to a trickle. I mean, it's going to

10:19

be a big deal. There are a

10:21

couple of really offsetting issues. The

10:23

geomorphologists, if they're playing top trumps

10:26

sitting of an evening, they will

10:28

say, what's your favourite delta? And

10:31

everyone's favourite delta is the Ganges-Brahma-Pukra

10:33

because it's such an active system.

10:35

There's basically so much of the

10:37

Himalayas, so much sediment coming down

10:39

those rivers, that the islands,

10:41

the low-lying char islands and

10:43

the low-lying coast basically is able to

10:45

rise and fall in geological time associated

10:48

with sea level. So it's an

10:50

amazing physical living system.

10:54

One of the key issues for

10:56

Bangladesh is actually the starvation of

10:58

sediment coming down it because of upstream

11:00

dams. So it's not too much water

11:03

and sediment. It's actually too little sediment

11:05

coming down because of dams

11:07

being built principally in India and the

11:09

Faruk barrage and the rest of it. There's

11:12

a similar kind of row, isn't there, in

11:14

the Nile between Sudan and Egypt. I mean,

11:16

it's kind of wherever you go, there's water

11:18

issues. Classic water

11:20

issues. Classic cooperation

11:23

and cooperation systems that were set

11:25

up where when flows,

11:27

when rainfall patterns were rather different

11:29

and are now fluctuating. So

11:32

I think the consequence of climate change

11:34

is manifest just to

11:36

all these different scales through international

11:39

cooperation on river basins down to

11:41

how we experience it on the

11:43

ground. So when you

11:45

see largely, but not

11:47

only largely, but largely politicians of the

11:49

right in Britain and America

11:51

and other places saying,

11:53

well, it's all a socialist hoax,

11:56

this climate change is Forcing us

11:59

to behave. As collectivist and

12:01

deny us choice all the rest

12:03

was your actions. That

12:05

I was prob on a farm.

12:07

I am my parents and grandparents.

12:10

Taught. By the weather all the

12:12

time and they did recognize my

12:14

and certainly my father later in

12:16

life said well but the climate

12:18

has really changed. I've never met

12:20

and I've worked on these issues

12:22

and sort of Natural resources, agriculture,

12:24

fisheries throughout the world have never

12:26

met a farmer arm met at

12:28

he owed someone whose life and

12:30

livelihood is invested in the climate,

12:33

who hasn't recognized the observed changes

12:35

and in the places for they

12:37

have been on that includes American

12:39

farmers have therefore the cognitive. Dissonance

12:41

Of. I mean not to be too

12:43

partisan about it, but the cognitive dissonance

12:45

of people saying there is no climate

12:48

change fall apart from the climate change

12:50

the I'm experiencing as a runs or

12:52

in the middle sister his sort of

12:55

and leaves me support. Told. I

13:00

just want to take a moment to talk

13:02

to very briefly about the organization behind the

13:04

We Society. Because of

13:06

Your Social Services is a national

13:08

body for academics, practitioners, and learned

13:11

societies in the social sciences. As

13:14

the present economy, I can tell

13:16

you that we champions of vital

13:18

role Social Sciences plan education in

13:21

Government and business the list goes

13:23

on. You can find out more

13:25

about economy social Sciences work supporters

13:28

or read up on our sellers

13:30

by going to the website acss.org.uk

13:32

That's Acss dot Org dot Uk.

13:36

Tell. Us what we should

13:38

be covering. Who is

13:40

you be speaking to

13:42

by emailing We Society

13:44

at a css.org.uk Now

13:46

the conversation. I

13:53

want to get on Save. Solutions and some

13:55

of the work you've been doing and how you approach

13:58

this and this is kind of bridge into the. In

14:00

a way, how do you. Persuade.

14:02

Skeptics and I see

14:04

the population at large

14:06

that. It's. Worth their while.

14:09

Belt tightening, recycling, paying extra,

14:11

doing whatever is necessary to

14:13

can mitigate climate change when

14:15

how do we guess if

14:17

you like new the ordinary

14:19

median man or woman. To.

14:21

Saying gotta do something Unfortunately some of

14:24

my work is don't signed like it's

14:26

in their field of climate catastrophe, the

14:28

negative things that actually happens and communicating

14:30

that in some senses egg certainly through

14:32

the temptation for this to be a

14:35

narrow of of crisis on our of

14:37

have to testify or at a negative

14:39

affair sensibly doesn't do it in terms

14:41

of people's most you might shroud wedding

14:43

puts people off. You may have to

14:46

fit in terms of motivation for themselves

14:48

because the temptation is to put your

14:50

head down and. To look

14:52

after yourself and or to be

14:54

fatalistic a Bidet Sable, It's happening

14:56

and it's I ike with my

14:58

control and I guess whatever I

15:00

mean I just one person miss

15:02

my flights, my recycling scare my

15:05

have an actual guy is going

15:07

to make much difference. Isn't started

15:09

Reaction. But they

15:11

other parts of this I think

15:13

our is ted help people understand

15:15

that, understand or to paint a

15:17

picture of the actually action on

15:19

climate change on decarbonizing the economy.

15:21

On mitigating climate change

15:24

ambitions. Is. Likely

15:26

to be beneficial for many, many

15:28

other. Reasons. And

15:31

to in some senses sale or

15:33

perhaps from climate change as an

15:35

issue of well being, as an

15:38

issue of a health as an

15:40

issue of fought sustainable living looks

15:42

like. So we have made significant

15:44

progress in the Uk and decarbonizing

15:47

the electricity system. The generation of

15:49

electricity use it decarbonizing that attacking

15:51

the fossil fuel mixed. yeah a

15:54

little bit I that, but the

15:56

stubborn areas. Are. On.

15:59

Travel. I'm transport.

16:01

On. Residential use. And.

16:04

On food systems and it's so

16:06

in each of those areas and

16:08

perhaps every framing those as support

16:10

sustainable and healthy food looks like

16:13

for a neighborhood looks like through

16:15

act of travel through being safer.

16:17

Bet that through the the benefits

16:19

of public transport, the benefits of

16:22

infrastructure. I think the argument

16:24

about climate change needs to be reef

16:26

ram to die and almost at that

16:28

sectoral level to solve problems and people's

16:30

lives including insulation and people size. As

16:32

far as cold weather giving his own

16:34

what you mean and so you and

16:36

or refrain miss you. Not going to

16:38

be a finger wagging physician or scientist,

16:40

you're going to be a reef frame

16:42

it hasn't. Come with me on this

16:44

journey. give me an exam for the

16:46

proposition you'd like to me. Let's go

16:48

back to the issue of flood risk

16:50

that are you mentioned. The I've been

16:52

working on extensively. And so's

16:54

the Somerset levels. In the

16:56

Somerset Levels are. Significant

16:58

example in the Uk, but there are

17:01

many places like this and many parts

17:03

of England and right across the Uk

17:05

that are exposed to Plans says here

17:07

go to places where the local community

17:10

realizes this Many of them are actually

17:12

no acting together and sang or in

17:14

association with our local authorities with the

17:17

Environment Agency and saying what can we

17:19

do to mitigate this flood risk to

17:21

us because this is going to impact

17:23

our houses, the value of our houses

17:26

in their estimates but then going out

17:28

and. Actually reducing mitigating

17:30

those kids through. natural

17:32

resource slugged management so bringing nature

17:35

into actually receding flood plains where

17:37

people may up and walk their

17:39

dogs before but actually are those

17:42

to become more natural and reviled

17:44

and to you're working with farmers

17:46

in the uplands so these types

17:48

of activities were communities are doing

17:51

it for themselves or planning for

17:53

their local and farm from cells

17:55

are hugely popular but also huge

17:58

the effect of admit again those

18:00

flood risks. I'm thinking of the

18:03

calm river in Devon, the Totten Sponge,

18:05

that's a great example of a type

18:07

of activity where the communities have got

18:09

together and set aside some wetland

18:11

areas so that the water accumulates and rather than

18:13

flooding through there, you know, down their streets. That

18:15

is an issue, isn't it? I mean, we have

18:18

water is running off hillsides

18:21

too quickly because

18:23

it's being farmed or sheep farmed or

18:25

whatever and not being soaked up.

18:28

And then washes into your

18:30

living room if you're downstream and suddenly

18:32

your television is floating about in front

18:34

of you and you retreat upstairs. I

18:36

mean, it's all quite vivid if you're

18:38

in that

18:41

situation. And so

18:43

you do collectively act. That's

18:45

a very dramatic example. And just before

18:47

we leave it, what are

18:50

the psychological impact? I mean, how many,

18:53

the summer set levels is what? Some hundreds of

18:55

square miles, isn't it? And what

18:57

are? I mean, 10,000 people live there and maybe

18:59

a little more. I mean, yeah. Yes, double that

19:01

across, you know, two district council areas, really. It's

19:04

a big number. It's a big number. And

19:06

give us a sense of what happens to people because this

19:08

was one of your levers you

19:10

pull is that

19:12

people's well-being, their psychological well-being,

19:15

their happiness, you know, is

19:18

closely linked to how secure they feel about

19:20

managing flood risk. And if

19:23

you remember back to now 10 years ago,

19:25

it was the winter of 2013-14 against summer.

19:30

Worst floods ever, weren't they? The worst floods

19:32

on record in 175 years of

19:35

rainfall records in some parts, most parts of

19:37

the country. It was basically long

19:39

and enduring floods and parts of summer

19:42

set, which is why it's become very

19:44

visual to us. And we remember it,

19:46

we're underwater for months. The

19:48

various parts of the health

19:51

research community realized that

19:53

the impact of this was not necessarily

19:55

going to show up in the health

19:58

services and demand for them. looking

22:00

at people's attachment to

22:02

place, their ideas of identity and

22:04

what place means to them is

22:07

one way into talking about how climate change

22:09

is going to affect them because there are

22:11

things that people care about over and above

22:14

the economic consequence, which is themselves,

22:17

that their own health, the health of their

22:19

family, the place that gives meaning to their

22:21

lives and those sorts of

22:23

things. You're on these various kind of, you

22:26

advise the Swedes, you advise the Spanish, I

22:28

mean you're on the Committee of

22:30

the Climate Change Panel. What

22:32

problems do they come to

22:34

you with and tell

22:37

us about a solution that you're proudest of?

22:40

There might be even a sort of divergence

22:42

between those two parts of the questions. Both

22:46

the UK through the Climate Change

22:48

Risk Assessment under Tengbao, the Climate

22:50

Change Committee, the UN

22:52

panel that I've been involved in

22:54

impacts the UN Intergovernmental Panel on

22:56

Climate Change. They've all

22:59

been motivated by these big and scary

23:01

things. The Intergovernmental Panel

23:03

on Climate Change was co-awarded

23:05

the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007, along

23:09

with Al Gore. They determined

23:11

at that time that they hadn't really

23:13

looked at the risk of climate change

23:15

to peace and the potential

23:17

for conflict around that. So I was charged

23:19

part of the team that actually did that

23:21

assessment in the subsequent cycle

23:23

of the IPCC reports looking at

23:26

the issue of human security. The

23:28

evidence that or the likelihood of interstate wars, i.e.

23:30

wars between countries over water resources

23:37

or whatever, is at the

23:40

minute vanishingly small. But

23:42

that doesn't mean to say that there

23:44

isn't major conflicts and rivalries, particularly over

23:46

food and food resources going forward. So

23:49

if people aren't going to war over

23:51

water, that's an important thing to

23:54

know. The collaboration, the cooperating, the finding your way

23:56

through. Even Those basins, those 60

23:58

or so people, that are still there, They're still there. Major

24:00

basins in the world where water flows

24:02

between countries and there has been at

24:04

not a violent conflict, but certainly been

24:06

rivalry and disagreements and political tensions between

24:09

those countries and most of those. There

24:11

is a mechanism by which these will

24:13

be resolved, but the knowledge of how

24:15

climate change is going to affect those

24:18

is really really set a goal to

24:20

put that on even footing. The other

24:22

issue the be looked at in terms

24:24

of human security was this issue of

24:26

migration on again assuming all that. Popularly.

24:29

That climate change is going to

24:31

lead to displacement last space of

24:34

people moving across international borders fire.is

24:36

not as significant likelihood because the

24:38

mass movement of people is still

24:40

within jurisdictions with and by countries

24:43

and particular to rural to urban.

24:45

For my most proud of and

24:47

I would say is going back

24:49

to one particular place and this

24:51

is really what social science dawes

24:54

look at that the context of

24:56

I these things have been in

24:58

place and. For these

25:00

actually work in practice is

25:02

southern Bangladesh. The population of

25:05

Southern Bangladesh has. An

25:07

effect stabilized the last two or

25:09

three senses of showed that the

25:12

population densities aren't changing their actually

25:14

below replacement fertility level, so it's

25:16

a stable population, but there's no

25:19

significant ah, ite slows of people

25:21

to the cities, But when people

25:23

move to a city eat the

25:26

port city of Chittagong, they're actually

25:28

faced with a whole set of

25:30

environmental risks. A whole set of

25:33

climate change risks. Associated

25:35

with flooding with a public health

25:37

with like have access to public

25:39

services on so what we did

25:42

on the grind was to. That

25:45

actually the sustainability of this gross

25:47

of those sorts of series something

25:49

amplified by climate change. But certainly

25:52

Rothys new climate change risks is

25:54

going to be that their sustainability

25:56

is really tied up with hole

25:58

in her. The only thing

26:01

near populations moving into the city

26:03

who are most at risk I

26:05

can see where they live at

26:08

basically in some areas are in

26:10

identity neighborhoods and quite often with

26:12

low income jobs. I quickly and

26:14

hi effectively dar voices heard hide

26:17

that's taken an on board with

26:19

the development of the city because

26:21

and a city that is growing

26:24

those population has quadrupled in probably

26:26

forty years. Then many many people

26:28

continue to arrive. I. Continued to

26:30

grow and those are people who are

26:33

really excluded from this. unfairly. the vulnerability

26:35

lies. So what we did was work

26:37

with the planners there and worked with

26:39

migrant communities on actually brought them together.

26:42

Using various a message on the

26:44

planners then the who build the

26:46

infrastructure to plan to develop the

26:49

master plans than were extraordinarily a

26:51

pretty of of. These new

26:53

voices of new migrant voices of the

26:55

lived experience of what. It feels

26:58

like to be in the city on the

27:00

side. These very specific risks could actually be

27:02

titled. You're. Getting. A

27:04

conversation getting between represented as as

27:06

these people and the city planners

27:08

to do precisely what build more

27:10

sewers to build books, pumps in

27:12

the street for clean water to

27:14

oh when you say you've heard

27:17

the voices ah for the practical

27:19

for was yeah what prot was

27:21

practically happening or the practical solutions

27:23

are a bite. Add the provision

27:25

of or about the provision of

27:27

toilets for example which is a

27:29

huge issue just in terms and

27:31

sorry low income neighborhoods where they

27:33

are shared resources. They. Also

27:35

add the provision of public space

27:38

so our local entrepreneurs far markets

27:40

to grow at these sorts of

27:42

issues. and also the. Regulation

27:45

of the housing markets because one

27:47

of the. Stepping. Stones

27:49

for social abilities to clearly move. I

27:51

have slum areas and two others, but

27:54

it's the regulation of those on. This

27:56

is the same in every city globally.

27:58

the regulation of housing markets. Or

28:00

of landlords and our actions. So

28:02

there are both social and environmental

28:04

dimensions to this risky landscape that

28:06

people are moving into on the

28:09

economic time since. and so some

28:11

very good practical solutions coming out

28:13

of this basically in the realm

28:15

of public health, but also the

28:17

in the realm of economic opportunities

28:19

and minimizing discrimination and labor markets

28:21

and all sorts of Aires. To.

28:24

An extent as your work overlap with

28:26

your the well being movements I mean

28:28

I I, Professor Richard Loud and others

28:31

as got the have campaigning to from

28:33

At Wells well being and saying this

28:35

is the anti austerity for public policy

28:37

does it promotes me the more well

28:40

being than the was before. If it

28:42

doesn't send you shouldn't do it. I

28:44

mean are you playing an independent sorrow

28:46

from their workers to know of their

28:48

work to bring it together in her

28:51

to skill sets of and what's the

28:53

community which he works. Won't leave

28:55

us a be pulled by whom

28:57

to make things better. The great

28:59

thing about that work on well

29:01

being is that it does focus

29:04

on those mechanisms by which people's

29:06

lives are made to rail arm

29:08

people's lives are mid meaningful but

29:10

it tends to focus on the

29:12

individual aspects of that at One

29:14

contribution to that really comes from

29:17

human geography but many other social

29:19

psychology and other areas for at

29:21

the interface of fr I'm working

29:23

which is. The idea of.

29:26

Community resilience and the idea

29:28

of collective wellbeing am and

29:30

the way that place and

29:33

identity contributes to an overall

29:35

sense of wellbeing. And add

29:37

those are I'm proud of

29:39

where I live. I was

29:41

born here at. Work.

29:43

Here and my kids and ten

29:46

have been part of it for

29:48

seventy years and now I'm watching

29:50

it and be in danger by

29:52

whatever might be Believe I'm into

29:54

local or of climate change phenomenon

29:56

that hurts me and I I

29:58

want to act. A colleagues

30:01

my hooted sitting in a tribe of rent

30:03

the pace of the happening is you're just

30:05

as surprised as you're describing his enemies that

30:07

it is. Just give us a string of

30:09

places where amp you can kind of and

30:11

care their response to this were in it

30:13

for that's actually happens is not going to

30:15

a serial broad brush been actually really. Concrete.

30:18

vivid for people. In all

30:20

the places I've worked and I've

30:22

observed this and another way to

30:24

express this is this idea, right?

30:26

Human Security which in the vernacular

30:28

means freedom from want and freedom

30:31

from fear and the impact of

30:33

climate change. Released or speaks to

30:35

this and. The. Consequences, Risks

30:37

and say or snap people have and

30:39

I've observed this in work that we've

30:41

with collaborate or so I've worked with

30:43

in Australia were at the in Northern

30:46

Prince and the Great Barrier Reef all

30:48

the communities around there we showed this

30:50

and survey work. I got very strong

30:52

sense of identity and pride in the

30:54

Great Barrier Reef, this world heritage site

30:56

that sits on their doorstep. But actually.well

30:59

being was diminished because of major coral

31:01

bleaching effects on these periodic for his

31:03

has not is rising is at a

31:05

well the world's assist. Years care when

31:07

the coral was multi colors and now it's

31:09

just. Bleached. At

31:12

periodically is under stress and risk

31:14

is increasing because of El nino

31:17

events in those are becoming stronger

31:19

and so they're serious concerns about

31:21

the future of calories. So from

31:23

communities in Northern Australia that take

31:26

pride in the race, in place

31:28

and identity through two communities and

31:30

like Answer and Somerset sorry to

31:33

farmers the and waves are taught

31:35

to and Southern Donna and the

31:37

fishing communities there I think these

31:40

issues are common. Throughout the

31:42

world and universal. and I think that's one

31:44

of the great strengths of social science to

31:46

serve. Cut through and see these parents and

31:48

and meaning. And and add

31:50

to try to. Turn. That

31:52

into a positive action over and above

31:55

the empowerment of and social science and

31:57

bringing these voices to the table. To

32:00

conclude I mean I'm Greg Clark

32:02

was took it isn't a piano

32:05

earlier podcast and like an optimal

32:07

city size and this and actually

32:09

the features the city and so

32:12

rating the city half and world's

32:14

population. I live in cities and

32:16

the oh kind of taking a

32:19

snus not a different direction you

32:21

see who else finds can account

32:23

happening but we gonna both. Climb.

32:26

Magically resilience cities would

32:28

you look for? I'm.

32:31

The great news is that many

32:34

of the progressive cities in the

32:36

world have this in mind and

32:38

they are understanding this both day.

32:41

For. Example to see for a group

32:43

of mares there is another organize a

32:45

spinoff organization for the mares migration console

32:47

that have looked at the principles of

32:49

high people are moving to the season

32:51

high to integrate. You live in an

32:53

amazing world Neil you know. Lots

32:56

of morphologist geographers talking about Deltas

32:58

out committee to key to was

33:01

doses sack of cause a group

33:03

of foresee progressive mass I would

33:05

it's a completely yeah are so

33:08

will the which kind of not

33:10

much on guessing. That not many

33:12

people listening to this know months. I

33:14

mean that in some sense of this,

33:16

it's hugely bile. I'm not surprised, but

33:18

for the listeners I think is reassuring

33:20

that anyone who looks at the evidence

33:22

has realized that climate change is coming

33:25

down. the track is going to be

33:27

very, very significant. Far as the economic

33:29

geography of the world of fire, people

33:31

live what they do, the economic activities

33:33

and whenever there are extreme events heat

33:35

waves, floods and the rest of we

33:37

see disruption to economic activity. We see

33:39

insurance companies not wanting to ensure. A

33:41

high since a displacement of places. We

33:44

can see that changing economic geography, but

33:46

it's happening at a very a. That

33:49

perhaps his out west are ya

33:51

it's or as a day to

33:53

day experience of it and but

33:55

be assured that the such a

33:57

sad as on dates and the

33:59

engineers. and the environmental and climate

34:01

scientists are doing absolutely everything we can

34:03

to make sure that this information is

34:05

there and allows us to help build

34:07

those climate resilient cities for the future

34:09

and climate resilient societies more generally. Neil,

34:12

it's been a fascinating conversation and you've taken us

34:14

on a kind of world tour.

34:17

You've taken us from Somerset

34:19

levels and people distressed about

34:21

their homes being ruined. You've

34:24

taken us to Chittagong in Bangladesh,

34:26

how to deal with the slums

34:29

of the millions arriving into this

34:31

booming city have got to be

34:33

managed, the dialogue between the city

34:35

planners. You've taken us to

34:37

Ghana, you've explored the world of deltas

34:39

with us and you've alerted

34:42

us actually to a bunch of problems

34:44

in which, encouragingly,

34:46

you're saying that mares

34:49

and geographers and

34:51

social scientists can't

34:53

prevent climate change, but

34:55

are finding a language that

34:58

may make populations own that there's

35:01

a difficulty and give

35:03

permission for governments to respond and

35:05

lead us as cities to respond.

35:08

It's encouraging that you say that, it's

35:10

encouraging that you move in this community

35:12

which is doing kind of good stuff.

35:15

And I think I leave the studio at the

35:17

rather more confident and upbeat

35:19

when I arrived in it. So thank

35:22

you very much. That was absolutely my

35:24

intention Will to present a

35:26

positive story around this because it's on

35:28

the cards, it's coming our way and

35:30

we have got to use this as

35:32

an opportunity to create a WeSociety.

35:36

Elijah, thank you very much. Thank you. subscribe

36:00

to the podcast so you're the first to

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know when a new episode comes out.