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1:27

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:30

This is George Parker from the Financial Times

1:32

with the Week in Westminster. Local

1:34

elections are just around the corner and

1:37

Rishi Sunak's been engaged in a flurry of political

1:39

activity this week, sending out

1:41

a tough message on the defence of the realm and

1:44

putting defence companies on a war footing. Meanwhile,

1:47

Sir Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, metaphorically

1:49

wrapped himself in the English flag for

1:51

St George's Day on Tuesday in

1:54

a foretaste of the battle for patriotic

1:56

supremacy whenever the general election comes.

2:00

announcement too on Labour's plan for

2:02

the rail industry. Away

2:04

from the pre-election skirmishes at Westminster, the

2:06

Scottish National Party's grip on Holyrood was

2:08

shaken by the collapse of the party's

2:10

coalition with the Greens, followed

2:12

by the prospect of a no-confidence

2:14

vote. For the first time in

2:17

years, Scottish politics looked even more febrile

2:19

than the situation at Westminster. Making

2:22

the most of the relative political calm,

2:24

Rishi Sunak headed east this week to

2:26

Poland and Germany, announcing plans to

2:28

boost British defence spending if the Conservatives win

2:31

the general election. Mr Sunak

2:33

said the UK was facing the most

2:35

dangerous international environment since the days of

2:37

the Cold War. I believe

2:39

we must do more to defend

2:41

our country, our interests and our

2:43

values. So today I'm

2:46

announcing the biggest strengthening of our national

2:48

defence for a generation. We

2:50

will increase defence spending to a new

2:52

baseline of two and a half percent

2:55

of GDP by 2030. Labour

2:58

says it would also raise defence spending to two

3:00

and a half percent of GDP, as

3:02

soon as resources allow. As

3:04

Rishi Sunak was away, Deputy Prime Minister

3:06

Oliver Dowden and Labour's Deputy Leader Angela

3:09

Rayner were at the helm for this

3:11

week's Prime Minister's questions. Angela

3:13

Rayner claimed that the army had shriveled

3:15

under the Conservatives. We all want to see 2.5%

3:19

the difference is, is

3:21

that we haven't caught the army to

3:23

its smallest size I

3:26

discussed this with two former members of

3:28

the armed forces, Labour peer and former

3:30

head of the Navy, Admiral Lord West

3:33

and former soldier, Conservative MP and the

3:35

chair of the Defence Select Committee, Tobias

3:37

Elwood. First I asked Lord

3:39

West for his reaction to Rishi Sunak's spending

3:41

pledge. First of all, I have

3:43

to say I welcomed it. You know, for a long

3:45

time now people have been asking the question, how

3:48

on earth can one think that we might

3:50

be about to have fighting or a war

3:52

and we need to stop a war happening

3:54

and say we're going to increase the money

3:57

we spend but we will do it when

3:59

the financial situation arrive. That's

4:01

no good really, because that's too late, you've

4:03

got to go for it now. But the

4:05

other aspect was the 500 million for Ukraine

4:07

and all of the stuff we're giving to

4:09

Ukraine, I mean huge support. Well, it's a

4:11

domestic point though, it puts Keir Starmer on

4:13

the back foot, doesn't it? Because you just

4:15

described how Rishi Sunat's been very specific about

4:17

getting to two and half percent of national

4:19

income, whereas Keir Starmer has said, as and

4:22

when resources allow. I would like Labour and Keir

4:24

Starmer in their manifesto to say absolutely that they're

4:26

going to go for it, to show they'll go

4:28

for it. Indeed, well I'd love it, so they've

4:30

got even more but they can't, because the war's

4:32

got to balance this against all the other expenditure

4:34

and all the other costs there. It's all very

4:36

well talking about getting rid of civil servants to

4:38

pay for it. I think if Rishi's government stayed

4:40

in power, which I don't think they will, but

4:42

if they did, then I think there

4:44

will be some difficulty in pay for it just in

4:46

that way. I think you'll have to take money from

4:48

other departments. And to put it that way, I presume

4:51

you endorse what the Prime Minister said this week. Is

4:53

that war once again, state

4:55

on state aggression, is back

4:58

and the UK is involved in supporting Ukraine.

5:00

Ukraine's doing the fighting for it. So this

5:02

is a significant announcement. And

5:04

it's a change in mindset, I think,

5:06

of this government in recognising that wider

5:09

threat picture is deteriorating. Our world is

5:11

becoming more contested than any time since

5:14

1945. And the political mood does seem to be shifting

5:16

into accepting the argument you've under all the rest

5:18

of just been making. Do you think the

5:21

public are actually bought into this, though? Because

5:23

some will say, well, that's all very well,

5:25

free with that at a high level. But

5:27

we'd like to have our schools improved, our

5:29

hospitals improved, potholes filled in. Do you think

5:31

they're ready for this kind of switch in

5:33

public spending? So right to say that you

5:35

must take the nation with you, because there

5:37

will not be money for potholes. There will

5:40

not be money for education, for health and

5:42

so forth, if the prosperity of this nation

5:44

is impacted by the deterioration of the threat

5:46

picture. Norwest, if we accept that whichever government

5:48

wins will be spending more on defence, how

5:50

should they be spending the money? Have we

5:52

been spending money on the wrong kind of

5:54

things in the past, including you're a Navy

5:56

man, to very large aircraft carriers? Well, I

5:58

mean, spending money then was absolutely... the right

6:00

thing to do and everyone keeps talking about

6:02

how expensive they are but actually in defense

6:04

terms they're not expensive really. There are lots

6:06

of little funny things that haven't been happening

6:08

because we've had insufficient funds. So for example

6:10

the business of accommodation and things like that

6:13

for the troops, there will need to be

6:15

money spent there and that can come to

6:17

a reasonable amount of money but it's got

6:19

to be done because if you haven't got

6:21

the people to man

6:23

the army, to man the ships, then you might

6:25

as well not be there. And it's very unsexy

6:27

in a way but that's got to be done.

6:30

When you then ask what other areas you're looking at,

6:32

I really do think the army's got to get their

6:34

mind round how they're going to do this. I

6:36

mean for example we are giving a mass of drones

6:38

to Ukraine, a mass of them. I'd like to

6:41

see in the army where is the drone regiment,

6:43

I don't know what you want to call it,

6:45

using lessons from what's been happening in Ukraine and

6:47

actually getting more flexible and more able to react

6:50

quickly going to the carriers which are close to

6:52

my heart. You know we've taken so long to

6:54

get the air wings, so let's bloody well get

6:56

the air wings. These are planes for the golden

6:58

carriers. Yes, let's get the air wings sorted out

7:00

so we can actually really utilize them properly. Can

7:03

I ask the same question I asked to Tobias,

7:05

where's the money coming from? And in answer to

7:07

your question, I think the British

7:09

public actually are beginning to understand that there's

7:11

a real problem here. You know they see

7:13

not just a war in Ukraine, there's a

7:15

war in the Levant, you know

7:17

there's fighting down in southern Red Sea, there's

7:20

war in Sudan, there's issues of Taiwan. I

7:22

think there be anything, well actually things are a bit daunting.

7:25

When you go out you know into pub

7:27

and talk people do say these things. Now I know

7:29

when it comes down to the crunch they say well

7:31

actually you have to just say a few quid less

7:33

on your social security, it's a tricky one but

7:36

I think they do understand there's this risk. And to myself

7:38

you were mocked by Boris

7:40

Johnson who was Prime Minister at the time,

7:42

this was before the Ukraine invasion for warning

7:44

about the risk of a major land war

7:46

in Europe and it's just we might need

7:48

to invest in our tank force. What

7:50

do you think this additional defence spending should be?

7:52

Well see that argument was very interesting because it

7:55

was all about what was more important in

7:57

those days, cyber and the

7:59

digital world. world was to becoming as

8:01

important as terrain as well and that's why

8:03

there was this tilt to protect ourselves absolutely

8:05

right but you can't do this at the

8:08

expense of our conventional capabilities

8:10

and absolutely right Lord West given you

8:12

know his position wants to see more

8:14

money into the Navy and my worry

8:16

is that all the army as well

8:18

to us but you illustrate the fact

8:20

that all three service chiefs will probably

8:22

have pet projects in the drawers that

8:24

they'll want to come out saying wow

8:26

75 billion pounds coming our way this

8:28

is what I want to spend it on the army is

8:30

going to want more tanks and more personnel

8:33

which might be required the Navy will want

8:35

more surface fleet and more nuclear capability and

8:37

of course the RAF that used to have

8:39

36 fast jet squadrons during

8:41

the Gulf War is now down to six

8:44

but clearly you've got cyber you've got space

8:46

air defense over London that was another issue

8:48

that's come up after what happened with Israel

8:51

first thing to do is to register the

8:53

scale of threat that's coming how are we

8:55

going to work with our allies and then

8:57

you work out where you spend your money

8:59

and from what you're saying there both of you actually

9:01

it sounds to me like two and a

9:03

half percent of GDP isn't going to touch the sides and

9:05

probably we're gonna have to do what Ben Wallace the former

9:08

defense secretary has been talking about which is to increase

9:10

spending to three percent of GDP well I

9:12

think we have entered a very bumpy era

9:15

in our history we're no longer at peace

9:17

and that's a big question of what Britain

9:19

needs to do not just look after our

9:21

own interest but as a nation that it's

9:23

in our DNA to step forward perhaps when

9:25

other nations hesitate I think it's gonna be

9:27

a lot more expected us if we are

9:30

going to do that then we obviously need

9:32

to increase and advance our hard power capabilities and

9:34

when we fight we want to win that's

9:37

what people forget that's what we're there for Admiral

9:39

Lord West and Tobias Elwood

9:42

more than two years after Rwanda

9:44

asylum plan was first mooted and

9:46

two prime ministers later legislation

9:48

is now in place to facilitate

9:50

the first deportation flights this

9:53

is the moment just after midnight on Monday

9:55

that the House of Lords finally let the

9:57

House of Commons get its way as

10:00

though that opinion was very content. So

10:06

will the flights actually take off? And

10:08

if they do, will the policy act

10:10

as a deterrent to people making the

10:12

dangerous crossing? Five migrants, including

10:14

a child, died in the channel

10:16

this week. To consider

10:18

what happens next, I've brought together the

10:21

Conservative MP Sir Edward Lee and Labour

10:23

MP Bell Ribeiro Addy. I asked

10:25

Sir Edward if the government could have got

10:27

the legislation through quicker. Well I

10:30

think actually the government has tried to

10:32

do its level best, but we've been

10:34

totally delayed by first of all human

10:36

rights lawyers led by the House of

10:39

Lords. The Labour Party is voted against

10:41

on every single occasion, as a Prime

10:43

Minister quite rightly and very strongly held

10:46

his press conference on Monday and said that enough

10:48

is enough if necessary we'll meet all

10:50

night and the Lords finally caved in.

10:52

So we got the bill. My own

10:54

view is that the only real deterrent

10:56

that anything will work is once the

10:59

bill gets royal assent is to

11:01

detain everybody who lands illegally, detain

11:03

them and then offshore them as

11:05

soon as possible. Bell Ribeiro Addy, the bill now

11:07

has royal assent, this is going to happen isn't

11:09

it? Some asylum seekers will be on a plane

11:12

through under this summer. Will they? We

11:14

don't know. The government has wasted a lot

11:16

of time on what seems to me like

11:19

a completely unworkable bill. They've spent millions

11:21

and millions of pounds, they've squandered the

11:23

goodwill of the people of this country

11:26

and it all seems like a bit

11:28

of a gimmick. I do believe that

11:30

we need to stop people traffickers, but

11:33

I think the best way to do

11:35

that is to create safe and legal

11:37

routes. We are signatories to international agreements

11:40

which basically state that no one seeking

11:42

asylum is illegal, but we have

11:44

deemed them such and now we're going

11:46

to offload our responsibility, potentially offshore them.

11:48

So we've got this ridiculous piece of

11:51

legislation in my eye that has bought

11:53

to rule Rwanda safe country when our

11:55

Supreme Court has said it's not. Will

11:57

you say that you suggested that people arrive at the border?

12:00

here by irregular means should be

12:02

detained and then deported. Do

12:04

you think this Rwanda scheme has the capacity

12:06

to deal with the sheer volume of people

12:08

who are crossing the channel? What happens to

12:11

those people that we can't get on planes

12:13

swiftly to Rwanda? The Prime Minister is

12:15

making available record capacity in detention

12:17

centres and of course it is

12:20

a deterrent. If you know that

12:22

when you risk your life and

12:25

pay thousands of pounds for the people

12:27

smuggler you will simply detained, they will

12:29

stop coming. That is the plan. But

12:31

of course if thousands and thousands keep

12:33

coming again and again and again and

12:35

are happy to spend months or

12:37

years in prison then what can we do about

12:39

it? We'll see what happens, at least we're trying.

12:41

Things are over, do you oppose housing 2000 asylum

12:44

seekers as a former RAF based in your

12:46

constituency? If not in your constituency where

12:49

should they be kept? I've said all along that we're

12:51

quite happy to have a compromise in the RAF scams

12:53

and 15 months ago we would have been happy

12:56

to have equivalent of 400 or 500 on the base so

12:58

we could cope with and then we could have released

13:00

the whole rest of the base for this

13:03

300 million pound regeneration. So yes in West

13:05

Lindsay in Gamesborough we're prepared to do our

13:08

bit but to put 2000 people in

13:11

one place was nearly ridiculous and by the

13:13

way it hasn't happened. So Bel River Adi,

13:15

the Labour Party said it's going to repeal

13:17

the Rwanda bill. Now more than 40,000 migrants

13:20

have used irregular routes to come to the

13:22

UK since over the last year in fact.

13:25

What happens to them under a Labour government? Well

13:27

I think for one we do need to

13:29

clean up what's happening at the home office.

13:31

The home office, they're not fit for purpose

13:33

at the moment. They are not properly assessing

13:35

asylum claims, they're not doing them swiftly enough.

13:38

That's why people are ending up in hotels

13:40

or sometimes in these situations

13:42

in immigration detention centres. It would make

13:44

more sense to properly assess asylum claims,

13:46

to give people the right to stay

13:48

here if their asylum claims are valid

13:50

and then to actually allow them to

13:52

work and contribute to this country. Sir

13:55

Edward, onto this legislation people will

13:57

be able to make individual appeals

13:59

claiming of a serious and irreversible harm

14:01

if they're sent through under. But

14:03

do you think the European Court of Human Rights

14:05

will intervene in this case? They have said that

14:07

it's not their plan to intervene again, but we'll

14:09

have to see if they do. And

14:12

the Prime Minister has made clear quite rightly, and

14:14

I agree with him, that if they try and

14:16

intervene again, we simply will ignore

14:18

them. We cannot allow the court in

14:20

its transform to stop us protecting our

14:22

borders. You know, there has to be

14:24

some sort of control. We're already having

14:26

600,000 people a year legally coming. We've

14:28

let in over our time in government hundreds of

14:31

thousands of people who claim asylum from all over

14:33

the world. Where there are

14:35

genuine asylum seekers, people who

14:37

are genuinely facing political persecution,

14:39

by all means, we should

14:41

meet their claim. But you

14:43

cannot just have an open

14:45

border policy. If you think there is

14:48

an open border policy, I would argue that the

14:50

Conservative government have led a government in this country

14:52

for the past 14 years. So

14:54

if there is an open border policy, it

14:57

is their policy. And as far as I'm

14:59

concerned, that actually does not exist. And we

15:01

do deport people from this country. And if

15:03

these people's asylum claims did not meet the

15:05

threshold of human rights, they wouldn't be allowed

15:07

to stay, which means that actually they have

15:10

valid asylum claims. Bell, can I just put one

15:12

final question to you? I'm picking up at Sir Edward's point. Last

15:15

year, legal migration into the UK was running at about 650,000

15:17

a year, a little over that.

15:20

Would the Labour Party propose a cap

15:22

on legal migration, or do you think 650,000 a year is

15:26

about an acceptable number? We want a fair

15:29

immigration system. And absolutely, those people, the

15:31

legal, so-called legal migrants, as you're referring

15:33

to them that have come into this

15:35

country, have been allowed to. They're fulfilling

15:37

certain roles, they're fulfilling certain jobs. In

15:39

terms of those that are seeking asylum,

15:41

if we go ahead with what Labour's

15:43

plans are to clean up our asylum

15:45

seeking process and make sure the proper

15:47

resources are put into it, we could

15:49

probably make sure that we process those

15:51

claims quicker. If their asylum claim has

15:53

been met, then they go on to

15:55

contribute to this country as working people,

15:57

as many other people who have got sort of asylum in the

15:59

country. this country have done before. Bell

16:01

Rivero Addy and Sir Edward Lee Away

16:05

from Westminster, crossbench PM Martha Lane

16:07

Fox, the dot-com pioneer, used last

16:09

weekend to walk up Snowdon, or

16:11

Ur Oydvar, as a prelude to

16:13

climbing Scarf Elpike and Ben Nevis,

16:15

the three highest peaks in Wales,

16:17

England and Scotland respectively. I

16:20

can vouch for the fact that those climbs

16:22

aren't for the faint-hearted, but the challenge Martha

16:24

has set herself is especially impressive, given that

16:26

she nearly died in a car accident in

16:28

Morocco 20 years ago and

16:30

sustained life-changing injuries. I

16:33

asked her about how difficult her mountain mission is

16:35

going to be and why she's doing

16:37

it. Martha Lane Fox, British Government, Australia Because I have a slightly strange

16:39

habit of saying nuts things that I actually have to do, I thought,

16:42

well how can I mark this strange anniversary? It's 20 years,

16:45

I don't want it to be melancholic in my

16:47

head, I want it to feel purposeful. So I

16:49

thought I want to try and raise £300,000 for

16:51

four charities, and what's hard? Well climbing

16:53

is hard, going up is okay but coming down is

16:55

very hard. So I have to try and climb the

16:57

three highest mountains in the UK. And it's hard because

17:00

I walk with two sticks, so that's already a bit

17:02

tricky. I have lots of challenges

17:04

having crushed my pelvis that you can't imagine, and

17:06

I can't feel my legs so well, so

17:08

difficult terrain is very hard because I

17:10

can't sense where I am so it's

17:13

not an insignificant idea

17:15

to try and do this. And you've done Snowden already

17:17

and you've got Scafel Pike and Ben Nevis to come.

17:19

That's right, yes. And when do you conclude your mission?

17:21

I'm going to conclude it in September. Hopefully not

17:23

my life, just the mission. Okay,

17:26

well now let's talk about, you

17:28

were a pioneer of the.com boom

17:31

and your views are taken very seriously. The

17:33

government's got a bold ambition to make the

17:35

UK technology superpower and a centre of AI

17:38

development. How are we doing? Mixed,

17:41

I would say. You know, I think the

17:43

thing that I find particularly frustrating is

17:45

that this isn't a big political point,

17:47

it's a small political point. Whatever shade

17:49

of government you have, they have got

17:51

a kind of a necessity, I guess,

17:53

in their own minds to find the new shiny thing

17:55

that we are going to be best at. So for

17:57

a while it was the best place to start a...

18:00

digital business and now we're going to be

18:02

the best place to be an AI superpower.

18:04

But the challenge in my opinion and actually

18:06

a very good Law's report recently by Baroness

18:09

Stoll and the Communications Committee really put a

18:11

light on this again is that we still

18:13

have some fundamental building blocks that are in

18:15

my opinion slowing down not just our digital

18:18

economy but our whole economy. So sure we

18:20

can try and become an AI superpower not

18:23

realistic in my humble opinion, but we are going

18:25

to be so much more successful if we really

18:27

engage with the issues that we have as the

18:29

building blocks, the fundamental nature of our infrastructure, much

18:32

better broadband for everybody or however you want to access

18:34

the internet at a good cost and making sure that

18:36

we all are able to access

18:39

and use the internet better digital skills and

18:41

understanding. So you're one of the charities

18:43

you're raising money for is AbilityNet which works with

18:45

developers and technologists to remind them of older

18:48

and disabled people are sometimes excluded from digital

18:50

life. Can you explain

18:52

what digital exclusion looks like? Yeah

18:55

I mean it's difficult because it's varied

18:57

so digital exclusion can be that you

18:59

literally have no money or access to

19:01

any kind of technology and

19:04

horrifyingly there are still many millions of people in

19:06

this country for whom that is the case. So

19:08

you've got that very sharpened but then it's a

19:10

sliding scale it's not one sort of ticked off

19:12

activity I can you know access the internet therefore

19:14

I am digitally competent you know it's being able

19:16

to get the benefits of it. There are a

19:18

million unemployed people who don't use the internet and

19:21

99% of jobs are only advertised

19:23

online. I mean that's just an equation

19:25

that needs to be solved right. Well

19:27

it's not a different topic ministers are considering banning the

19:29

sale of smartphones to children under the age of 16.

19:33

Where do you stand on that? I mean I don't

19:35

really like bans I don't think bans are

19:37

a very clever policy lever I don't think

19:40

that they necessarily get to the root cause

19:42

they can sometimes be helpful of course but

19:45

I think it's a nuanced and complicated issue

19:47

and I think that we need to give

19:49

children the context for why smartphones might be

19:52

bad for them and think about the whole

19:54

spectrum of it so you know a phone

19:56

itself that you can text people on I

19:58

don't see that as particularly provocative. You know,

20:00

you might have a child traveling alone. You might have

20:02

caring responsibilities, giving them access to a communication device. We

20:04

live in 2024, nearly 2025. That

20:07

feels kind of reasonable. Giving

20:09

children unfettered access to social media, which

20:12

we know is distracting, changes brain structure.

20:14

When their brains are still plasticizing, if

20:16

that's not a terrible neuroscientist word, then

20:18

that feels wrong. So there's got to

20:20

be a way that we can regulate,

20:22

I would feel, without necessarily a ban.

20:24

But I also understand why the national

20:26

conversation has not got to a point

20:28

where we see this as super urgent, because

20:31

we can see the impact it's having, I think, on

20:33

younger people. And you co-founded Last Minutes

20:35

during the dot-com boom back in the early

20:37

2000s. I don't remember

20:39

back in the old times. In the back

20:41

in the old days. And you were a pioneer

20:43

for girls and women working in technology. 25,

20:46

20 years further down the track. Why

20:50

are there so many men and so many

20:52

women working in this sector? Do you know what, Georgie? It's

20:54

one of the most depressing things. And I feel

20:57

a bit like, to be honest and excuse

20:59

my language, why do I still have to

21:01

talk about this crap? I just feel like,

21:03

how can we be nearly two years on

21:05

and not have made more significant progress? And

21:07

I think what's happened is some good progress.

21:09

We see the issue a bit more. There's

21:11

more data around it. More companies are tracking

21:13

it. There's more awareness of it. But I'm

21:15

not clear that the kind of boring microactions

21:18

that we need to take are really being

21:20

done by individual companies. And it's a huge

21:22

range of factors. It's how we educate

21:24

people, sure. But it can't all be put on the

21:26

school system. It's also about how companies advertise job. It's

21:28

about how they appraise people. It's about the culture they

21:30

build. It's about where the money goes. If you look

21:32

at just taking venture capital, right? Only 9%, I

21:35

think, it is of venture capital partners or women. And only 2%

21:37

to 3% of funding goes to female-led

21:39

businesses. Of course, because you probably

21:41

don't have the confidence to invest in things that

21:43

maybe feel a bit unlike you. And I'll just

21:45

quickly end with an anecdote. I was coaching a

21:47

brilliant young woman with a care product. It was

21:50

Care Tech for Care Homes. Not Glitzy or Glamis,

21:52

but she was great. And she could definitely have

21:54

got some funding. And I helped her a bit with her presentation,

21:56

not that she needed it. She called me afterwards and said I

21:58

had one comment. It was when I saw her. sat down and

22:00

one of the men in the room said, well, you have a very nice

22:02

voice. This is 2024.

22:05

It's so depressing. You know, we still need

22:07

to keep, unfortunately, talking about this crap. Martha

22:10

Lane Fox. And finally,

22:13

this week saw the sad death

22:15

of Frank Field, Lord Field of

22:17

Birkenhead, the idiosyncratic, redoubtable, maverick former

22:20

Labour MP who devoted a lifetime

22:22

in politics to fighting poverty. Here

22:25

he is speaking in 2013. Well,

22:27

I came into Parliament something

22:29

like 30, 35 years ago.

22:32

And if you said to me that 30

22:34

years or so later, we'd have

22:36

a society in which not only just

22:39

some people, but an increasing number of

22:41

people were using food banks. And yet

22:43

that position that we're in. So

22:46

what was Frank Field like? And will

22:48

Westminster see his like again? Dame Angela

22:51

Eagle represents the neighbouring constituency to Lord

22:53

Fields former Birkenhead seat in the Wirral.

22:55

So Ian Duncan Smith, the

22:57

former Tory leader, has also

23:00

championed welfare reform, including introducing

23:02

universal credit. Dame Angela

23:04

first. Well, he was

23:06

very, very kind, thoughtful, particularly

23:08

to me as his latterly

23:11

arrived parliamentary neighbour,

23:13

because he had been in

23:15

parliament, worked very closely with

23:17

all other Wirral MPs who were conservative at the

23:19

time. And then I came along. We worked

23:22

together on things like saving

23:24

the shipyards and making sure

23:26

Camellet had jobs and opportunities.

23:29

And Ian, how do you remember? Much the same, actually,

23:31

though, not in the location. He

23:33

really wasn't very party political. And

23:36

in our system, by and large, when you arrive, you

23:38

know, you get immediately lectured by the whips, this is

23:41

what you're going to do. It was always rather refreshing

23:43

to see somebody that was

23:45

somewhat independent of their party

23:47

whip, he would chat to anybody,

23:50

Labour, Conservative, you know, Liberal, whoever it happened

23:52

to be, if they had a shared interest.

23:54

But Andrew, he was a factory

23:56

workers son from just outside

23:58

London. What marked out his

24:00

approach to tackling poverty and how did his

24:03

own upbringing shape those views, do you think?

24:06

I think if Beveridge hadn't have existed,

24:08

it would have been Frank that did

24:10

that reform. He was very much

24:13

a man that was focused on big

24:15

ideas and big policy reforms on

24:17

what I would call a greenfield

24:20

site, but it wasn't so good.

24:22

It became obvious

24:24

when we went into government and Frank

24:26

went into the Social Security Department as

24:28

was then. He was much

24:30

less good at re-engineering on a brownfield

24:33

site. Right. It seems

24:35

to me that he believed very strongly

24:37

that work was the root out of

24:39

poverty for working class people. Ian,

24:42

you talked about the fact he spoke to conservatives,

24:44

liberal democrats and all the rest of it. He

24:46

was also close to Margaret Thatcher, wasn't he as

24:48

well? Did he share some of her views, do

24:51

you think? Work had

24:53

become a sort of slightly forgotten as to its

24:56

moral purpose as far as Frank was concerned, I think.

24:59

It became more a case of we need more people into work

25:01

because we've got to have more money, more tax, but

25:03

it was much more than that. I think that's the

25:05

bit that Frank was always focused on. Margaret Thatcher probably

25:08

shared that similar point about work, particularly in

25:10

her background as well. The

25:12

times I talked to him a lot, it became very

25:14

clear to me that he was right about the sort

25:17

of moral purpose of work, how it

25:19

really shapes families, gives them self-respect. That

25:22

bit will be something that he's left behind him

25:24

that does populate the arguments now much more than

25:26

it was when I first came into Parliament.

25:28

Andrew, you know, he took some of those views

25:30

with him when he became a minister

25:33

in the Department of Social

25:35

Security after Tony Blair's election

25:37

victory in 1997. Tony Blair

25:39

asked him to think the unthinkable on

25:41

welfare reform. What went wrong? Well,

25:44

I think it went wrong quite

25:46

quickly because Frank phoned me

25:48

up on the day that Tony had

25:51

gone to the palace and told me

25:53

that Tony had already called him to

25:55

make him welfare minister or, as

25:57

Frank put it, minister for thinking the unthinkable.

26:00

Which wasn't a surprise to me and

26:02

was a good appointment but very strange

26:04

to do it before you've appointed the

26:06

Cetriab state. Who was Harriet Harmon?

26:09

And I think this gave Frank a view that

26:11

he could maraud around

26:13

trying to do things without respecting

26:15

the sort of cabinet hierarchies. He

26:19

never got on well with Gordon Brown

26:21

particularly. And if you're going to come

26:23

up with policies that cost billions of

26:25

pounds it's probably a good idea to

26:27

check with the Chancellor first. I

26:30

think Frank was a bit unworldly

26:32

when it came to the craft

26:35

of politics. My experience

26:37

of having spent time in welfare trying

26:39

to change things, you have

26:41

to be prepared for the enormous battle you're going

26:43

to have always with the Treasury. The

26:46

Treasury is all powerful in British politics, far

26:48

too powerful in my book, and

26:50

that is a battle that you have to

26:52

have really structured everything if you're going to

26:54

succeed in any way at all. And

26:57

so thinking the unthinkable is fine but

26:59

doing the unthinkable is a real

27:01

problem when you're faced with that massive machine. Later

27:04

on, Andrew, he became controversial again in the past.

27:07

He was one of the few Labour MPs supporting Brexit.

27:09

Yes, but that was Frank all over and

27:12

he will have looked at that from the

27:14

point of view of a labour market issue

27:16

rather than some of the other economic things.

27:19

He also, more controversially from my point of

27:21

view, nominated Jeremy Corbyn. Why did he do

27:23

that? Because he felt that

27:25

there should be debate and it's like

27:28

you don't do that unless

27:30

you're prepared for the person that you've nominated

27:32

who you don't support to win. And

27:35

I have to say he's

27:37

absolutely beloved in Birkenhead. It's

27:39

hard to overestimate how

27:42

much the vast majority

27:44

of his constituents loved him, for

27:46

the care that he took of them, how

27:49

he sorted out their problems. He

27:51

was respected a lot.

27:53

He's an MP there, of course, for 40 years, Ian.

27:57

And do you think that we'll

27:59

see... the likes of Frank Field

28:01

again, those sort of independent-minded, free-thinking

28:03

MPs. There seem to be fewer of them around these

28:05

days. I think there's always scope

28:08

for somebody to be different in Parliament.

28:10

I think it's really important. Listen, most

28:12

things that get done that are worthwhile

28:14

are done across party. They're

28:16

done below the whips. They're done out of

28:18

the government. You form these all party groups.

28:20

You work together. You grow new respect for

28:22

each other on other sides of the house.

28:24

You find yourself action quite often in agreement

28:26

with each other about what the problem is.

28:29

And that's where you at the Parliament, I think,

28:31

is always at its best, where there's room then

28:33

for people like Frank and others

28:35

just to get on. And, Andrew, finally, do

28:38

you think Frank Field was a one-off? He

28:40

was very frank, yes. And

28:43

he was actually very frank. I remember once

28:45

when I was fighting the most marginal seat

28:47

in the north-west. And I arrived

28:49

one morning, slightly late, and I'd forgotten to

28:51

change my shoes in the car, and I

28:54

still had on a pair of DMs. They're

28:56

de-regur now, but he didn't really go round

28:58

in DMs as a candidate in 1992. And

29:02

he looked down at my shoes and said,

29:04

oh, you must be very confident that you're

29:06

going to win. Stay manger-eagle, answer

29:09

Ian Duncan-Smith. And that's it for now.

29:11

We'll have a live edition of The

29:13

Week in Westminster next week to discuss

29:15

the fallout from the local election results

29:17

and what they mean for the national

29:20

political picture. That was

29:22

me, George Parker, from The Financial Times with

29:24

The Week in Westminster. You can

29:26

download this and other political programs

29:28

on BBC Sounds. I'm

29:34

Helen Lewis, and I have a question. What

29:37

links family or WhatsApp dramas? I

29:40

flounced off after someone made

29:42

a particularly ignorant comment. Russian state

29:44

propaganda. It's very good platform

29:46

for spreading of this proputant position.

29:49

And a woman who married an AI. 100%,

29:52

I would never go back to humans ever,

29:54

ever again. No idea? Well,

29:56

they're all examples of how instant messaging

29:58

has changed the world. world. Find

30:01

out more by joining me for my new

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BBC Radio 4 series, Helen Lewis

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