0:00

I'm Eddie Rester.

0:01

I'm Chris

0:01

McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.

0:04

Today we are with Cornelius

0:04

Plantinga. He is senior research

0:09

fellow at the Calvin Institute

0:09

of Christian Worship. He's the

0:12

president emeritus at Calvin

0:12

Theological Seminary. And he's

0:16

written a new book, and we're

0:16

gonna talk about it today.

0:19

The book is simply

0:19

entitled "Gratitude." And it

0:22

really is part of his life's

0:22

understanding and his life's

0:25

work. What does it mean to live

0:25

faithfully? And part of living

0:29

faithfully is to cultivate the

0:29

virtue of gratitude.

0:33

And I'm so

0:33

grateful that Eddie has such a

0:36

hard time pronouncing his name.

0:37

I can't. I just, it...

0:39

You'll hear it

0:39

again. If you've been listening

0:41

to the podcast for a while, you

0:41

will notice that there... Eddie

0:45

is basically flawless. Except

0:45

for one area.

0:50

I was raised in a

0:50

world that had basic names. And

0:53

sometimes I just, it's hard.

0:55

Yes.

0:55

But I'm grateful

0:55

that Neal, our guest today, was

1:00

nice, was kind after I dropped

1:00

the ball trying to welcome him.

1:01

We coached Eddie

1:01

up on Neal's last name.

1:09

Within 10 seconds

1:09

of when we pressed the record button.

1:11

He screwed it

1:11

up. And so I'm grateful that

1:15

Cody did not stop the recording

1:15

so that you guys get to laugh at

1:19

Eddie.

1:21

What were you most

1:21

grateful for, besides that, with

1:24

the conversation today?

1:25

I want to be a

1:25

person of gratitude. I struggle

1:32

at times to stop long enough to

1:32

actually pay attention and to

1:42

express gratitude. I do think,

1:42

you know, there are days where I

1:46

get it right. But I I don't

1:46

know, I look back and it's like,

1:49

how did I pass through 10 years

1:49

of raising kids without

1:53

expressing more gratitude. And

1:53

so then I kind of come away

1:57

thinking this book is gonna

1:57

give... It gives a framework. It

2:01

gives a theological framework, a

2:01

scientific framework, and just,

2:07

you know, just hard spun wisdom

2:07

that has come through the ages

2:10

and through a long life that

2:10

really help hopefully, I think

2:15

motivate my intention. That's

2:15

what I take away. What about

2:18

Well, a lot of the

2:18

books that we talk about on the

2:18

you? podcast, sometimes they're dense

2:22

and thick and deeply

2:26

theological, and this one is

2:26

deeply theological, but this one

2:29

is easily engaged. And so I

2:29

think that's one of the things I

2:33

really liked about it was that I

2:33

didn't have to fight my way

2:37

through it. I could really...

2:37

And almost he anticipates the

2:41

next question that you're going

2:41

to ask, as he writes.

2:45

And so I hope you enjoy the

2:45

conversation today. This is one

2:49

of the books that I hope that if

2:49

you're like, I've never

2:53

purchased a book after y'all

2:53

have talked about a book," this

2:55

is one that I think would be

2:55

great for you, Cornelius

3:00

Plantinga.

3:01

You did it.

3:02

"Gratitude."

3:03

I'm proud of you.

3:04

So share this with

3:04

someone that you're thankful

3:07

for. Maybe write them a note,

3:07

send them a text, but share the

3:11

podcast. Let others know that

3:11

you're enjoying it and invite

3:14

others into the journey with us.

3:16

[INTRO] The

3:16

truth is, the world is growing

3:21

more angry, more bitter, and

3:21

more cynical. People don't trust

3:25

one another. And we feel

3:25

disconnected.

3:27

The way forward is

3:27

not more tribalism. It's more

3:30

curiosity that challenges what

3:30

we believe, how we live, and how

3:34

we treat one another. It's more

3:34

conversation that inspires

3:38

wisdom, healing, and hope.

3:40

So we launched

3:40

The Weight podcast as a space to

3:43

cultivate sacred conversations

3:43

with a wide range of voices at

3:47

the intersection of culture and

3:47

theology, art and technology,

3:51

science and mental health. And

3:51

we want you to be a part of it.

3:55

Join us each week

3:55

for the next conversation on The

3:58

Weight. [END INTRO]

4:02

We're here today with Dr. Neal

4:02

Plantinga. I know I didn't say

4:06

that correctly.

4:07

[LAUGHTER] Do it right!

4:08

We'll start over.

4:09

[LAUGHTER] No, we aren't.

4:09

You're gonna start it.

4:10

No! We have to

4:10

keep going. Everybody who ever

4:14

has listened to this podcast

4:14

knows that Eddie cannot

4:16

pronounce anyone's name. I just

4:16

want to apologize.

4:20

Again. To more

4:20

than one guest. You've had to

4:20

I just want to

4:20

apologize, everybody, for Eddie

4:23

apologize to more than one guest. just in general, but

4:24

particularly for his inability

4:28

to get anybody's name right.

4:28

Would you offer your name for

4:33

Eddie so that he gets it right?

4:37

Neal Plantinga.

4:39

Thank you.

4:40

Thank you.

4:40

I am so grateful

4:40

that, once again, we have an

4:45

opportunity to bring this to

4:45

light for Eddie. And the book

4:48

that we're going to talk about

4:48

today is on gratitude. And so I

4:52

wish, perhaps Dr. Plantinga, if

4:52

you would be willing to maybe

4:57

just talk about what gave rise

4:57

to the desired to write a book

5:00

on such a topic.

5:03

Well, as a

5:03

lifetime Bible reader, I

5:06

couldn't miss the fact that

5:06

there are lots of instances of

5:10

thanksgiving in the Bible, and

5:10

lots of injunctions to do it.

5:16

And, you know, we have them in

5:16

the Psalms: "Give thanks to the

5:20

Lord, for he is good." You have

5:20

St. Paul, a number of times,

5:26

saying things like, "and be

5:26

thankful." "Sing with gratitude

5:31

in your hearts to God."

5:31

"Whatever you do or say, do it

5:35

with thanksgiving to God through

5:35

Jesus Christ." So I couldn't

5:39

miss all that, that thanksgiving

5:39

is our calling.

5:44

But then, some years ago, I

5:44

became acquainted with the

5:48

positive psychology movement and

5:48

discovered that psychologists no

5:54

longer wanted talk simply about

5:54

mental diseases or disorders,

6:00

you know, obsessive compulsive

6:00

disorder, for example. And now

6:04

they were going to study

6:04

positive emotions: compassion,

6:08

humility, gratitude. And what

6:08

they said about gratitude is

6:13

that it is the single best

6:13

predictor of well being. A

6:20

person who is grateful is going

6:20

to do well. Their blood pressure

6:24

will go down. They'll sleep

6:24

better. Their heart rhythms will

6:28

stabilize. So I got intrigued by

6:28

the fact that something which is

6:34

our solemn duty, to give thanks

6:34

to God and to each other, is

6:40

also indicative of well being,

6:40

and promotes it.

6:45

One of the

6:45

definitions that you offer, a

6:49

formal definition of gratitude,

6:49

"Gratitude is a glad sense of

6:54

being gifted with something by

6:54

someone and thus being indebted

6:59

to the giver." How did you land

6:59

on that definition?

7:03

Well, I knew

7:03

that the heart of it is a

7:07

benefit. My friend, Bob Roberts

7:07

says that the logic of gratitude

7:13

is that a benefactor provides a

7:13

benefit to a beneficiary. And

7:20

you need all three terms. So "a

7:20

glad sense of having been

7:24

gifted," there's the benefit,

7:24

"by someone," there's the

7:30

benefactor, "with something and

7:30

therefore being obligated to the

7:36

giver." Now, the obligation part is

7:38

important. We all feel that if

7:46

somebody gives us something, we

7:46

owe them something back. At

7:50

minimum, a thank you. But for

7:50

much of the history of the

7:58

English language, and certainly

7:58

as recently as the 19th century,

8:01

one way of saying thank you

8:01

would be to say simply, "Much

8:05

obliged." That shows the sense

8:05

of obligation back to the

8:10

benefactor.

8:10

I love the...

8:10

Sorry, I know that Eddie wants

8:13

to jump in after he's already,

8:13

you know, offered...

8:17

I'm great grateful he's forgiven me. So.

8:19

Yeah, thank you.

8:20

I'm indebted.

8:21

I'm so grateful

8:21

for your forgiveness for Eddie,

8:23

Yeah, well, it's

8:23

fitting to thank somebody who

8:24

and mercy. But one of the things

8:24

that you say on this idea of

8:28

obligation is that the

8:28

traditional Book of Common

8:32

Prayer in the Church of England

8:32

states in the Great Thanksgiving

8:36

for Eucharist, that "we thank

8:36

God because it is meet to do so,

8:40

fitting and right in our duty to

8:40

do so. It is meet and right and

8:44

our bounden duty that we should

8:44

at all times and places give

8:48

thanks unto thee." That's just a

8:48

powerful idea. Maybe flesh that

8:52

out just a bit more, if you

8:52

don't mind.

9:00

has given you a gift. We see it

9:00

in everyday life, that saying

9:08

please, saying thank you, our

9:08

social lubricants. Y ou know, at

9:12

the bank had a store, somebody

9:12

holds a door for you, and you

9:17

naturally say thank you. In

9:17

fact, the person wouldn't even

9:22

notice unless you omitted it,

9:22

then they would notice that you

9:26

had omitted something that was

9:26

fitting.

9:29

And as you talk

9:29

about being indebted, I think

9:29

So it's appropriate to give

9:29

thanks to someone who has gifted

9:34

this is where, you know, I had

9:34

to do a little thinking about

9:35

you. It is right to do it. It

9:35

would be mildly hostile not to

9:41

do it. It would be for sure

9:41

churlish. But it's appropriate,

9:44

that, as I've read through that

9:44

portion, of being a beneficiary

9:47

it's fitting and it's right to

9:47

do it. And therefore, because

9:53

it's right to do it, it is our

9:53

duty to do it. And that for me

9:59

raises delightful irony that

9:59

what is our bounden duty is also

10:05

what promotes our well being.

10:17

of a gift, because we're not

10:17

good receivers a lot of times.

10:23

When someone does something for

10:23

us, when someone does more--they

10:28

bring a meal after we've lost

10:28

someone, or they give us an

10:32

unexpected gift on our birthday

10:32

or Christmas--part of our

10:36

humanity doesn't want to just

10:36

say thank you. It wants to,

10:39

then, respond in kind or try to

10:39

explain away why we needed the

10:44

gift in the first place. I

10:44

remember when one of my

10:49

daughters was in the hospital

10:49

for an extended time, becoming a

10:55

receiver really was the hardest

10:55

part of the whole process for

11:01

We can feel

11:01

dependent, and my friend Scott,

11:01

me. who wrote a book on grace, and

11:10

he says in the book that in the

11:17

United States, most forms of

11:17

dependence have a stigma

11:23

attached. Who wants to be

11:23

welfare dependent? Who wants to

11:29

be dependent on the church

11:29

deacons? What patriot would have

11:34

his blood stirred by a

11:34

declaration of dependence? Now

11:38

we are independence people, and

11:38

so it can be hard to be a

11:43

receiver. Robert Carroll has written, so

11:46

far, four volumes and his

11:50

magisterial biography of Lyndon

11:50

Johnson. And he talks about

11:54

Johnson early on as a teenager,

11:54

having lived on a very

12:00

prosperous ranch, but then his

12:00

dad made some bad financial

12:03

decisions, and they lost

12:03

everything. And they had to move

12:06

into a little house in town, and

12:06

other people had to bring them

12:10

meals, and he was humiliated by

12:10

the meals.

12:17

What are some of

12:17

the other inhibitors of

12:21

gratitude that are common that

12:21

you see in individuals?

12:28

Yeah, well,

12:28

there are a number of things

12:31

that can block our gratitude.

12:31

Some of them are perfectly

12:36

innocent. If a person has

12:36

clinical depression, they're not

12:41

going to be readily grateful, or

12:41

if they have an anxiety

12:45

disorder, or a shame disorder.

12:45

Sometimes the attitude of the

12:51

giver can block our gratitude.

12:51

The giver give something that's

12:56

got obvious strings attached, or

12:56

the giver tries to impress you

13:01

with their generosity when they

13:01

give you something. That can

13:05

block us. But some of our own attitudes

13:05

can block us, too. We can, for

13:11

example, think we are self

13:11

sufficient. And if I have no

13:15

needs, then nobody will ever

13:15

gift me for something I need,

13:22

and I won't be grateful. Or I

13:22

can be entitled. I can feel as

13:27

if I deserve every good thing I

13:27

get. And if I deserved it, why

13:32

give thanks for it? Some people

13:32

are cynical about gifts. They

13:40

mistrust the motives of the

13:40

giver and are trying to figure

13:44

out always what's really going

13:44

on here. So cynicism. Apathy can

13:51

also black gratitude, self

13:51

sufficiency, entitlement, envy.

14:01

I may resent the fact that

14:01

somebody has enough to give me

14:06

something that I need. And I may

14:06

feel, as Lyndon Johnson did

14:14

,humiliated by it. So yeah,

14:14

there are lots of ways,

14:18

unfortunately, to block

14:18

gratitude.

14:21

Early in the book,

14:21

you talk about the difference

14:24

between occasionally feeling

14:24

grateful, and a true grateful

14:28

disposition. Could you flesh

14:28

that out a little bit? What... I

14:32

mean, you know, we can say

14:32

can...

14:34

Gratitude can

14:34

arise spontaneously, and often

14:38

does. But a truly grateful

14:38

person will have a habitual

14:46

tendency to give thanks. They

14:46

will have a light trigger for

14:50

gratitude. Gratitude has become

14:50

so much a part of them that it

14:57

is a habit, a disposition. And

14:57

because it's a constant

15:04

disposition, it's part of their

15:04

character. It's a character

15:07

trait. So these are people who

15:07

are readily grateful. And

15:13

because they are, because

15:13

they're in the habit of being

15:17

thankful, they spot occasions

15:17

for gratitude everywhere.

15:23

I've got a couple

15:23

of friends who live in that

15:25

disposition. And I love it.

15:25

Because sometimes when I've got

15:29

that cynical bent, or I'm

15:29

questioning something, they

15:35

bring a reminder of gratitude to

15:35

me. And I think that's one of

15:40

the benefits, when someone has

15:40

that disposition is that it's

15:43

not just impacting them, it

15:43

begins to impact others around

15:48

them, as well.

15:50

And it can

15:50

become contagious, wonderfully.

15:56

People who are with grateful

15:56

people will tend to be grateful

15:59

themselves.

16:01

Yeah. So as you

16:01

think about the cultivation of

16:04

gratitude, obviously, that's

16:04

something we don't come... Maybe

16:09

we do come hardwired for

16:09

gratitude. I'm not sure if we do

16:12

or not. But...

16:13

No, I think this

16:13

is the piece that I wanted to

16:15

pick up on. Because I do think

16:15

there's this sense of, in the

16:18

biblical narrative, some of the

16:18

biblical themes are such that...

16:22

I mean, I think it's interesting

16:22

that you said, it's almost

16:24

natural to do so, this sense

16:24

that there's something about the

16:29

order and structure of our

16:29

social life, if rightly ordered,

16:33

you know, in accordance with the

16:33

purposes for which it was given

16:37

by God, that would... A rightly

16:37

ordered life would include

16:44

gracious, kind of gratitude, in

16:44

between of human relations. I do

16:50

think that that that is a really

16:50

fascinating concept to me. It's

16:53

not just a good thing to do. But

16:53

it would be kind of a rightly

16:57

ordered set of relationships

16:57

within a life that would be

17:01

rightly ordered between God and

17:01

other people. Is that kind of

17:04

the theological position of

17:04

gratitude in your moral

17:09

imagination?

17:11

Yeah, in a

17:11

rightly ordered life, gratitude

17:15

is fitting and right and our

17:15

bounden duty. So it's perfectly

17:24

natural.

17:24

Yeah, so it's

17:24

perfectly natural. And also, it

17:25

You know, there

17:25

are certain steps you can take

17:28

has all of these psychological,

17:28

emotional, and spiritual

17:32

benefits associated with it as

17:32

if maybe this is a good thing

17:37

for us. And maybe there's a God

17:37

and maybe the God cares for us.

17:41

And all of these things are

17:41

actually true. You know, it's

17:46

just a powerful idea to think

17:46

about, the fittingness of this.

17:50

It's just, it's a really

17:50

interesting concept to me.

17:57

to keep your car running well.

17:57

One of them is to change the oil

18:02

regularly. And you have a manual

18:02

for your car, that tells you how

18:10

to keep it running well. The

18:10

Bible is, in part, a manual for

18:18

flourishing. Do this, and you

18:18

will do well.

18:24

Yeah, a manual

18:24

for flourishing, that would

18:27

include be generous. Kind of

18:27

live your life in such a way

18:31

that you're not hoarding

18:31

everything to yourself, but get

18:35

in this kind of inhale, exhale

18:35

of receiving gift and offering

18:40

gift. And that within the

18:40

context of this gift economy,

18:48

gratitude becomes one of those

18:48

pieces that helps us stay in

18:54

this kind of loving and almost

18:54

joyful connection, both with God

18:58

and others. And there is a

18:58

section of the book where you

19:00

kind of tease out the

19:00

connections between gratitude

19:03

and contentment, gratitude and

19:03

joy, gratitude and generosity. I

19:08

wonder if you could connect

19:08

those dots for us?

19:12

Yeah. One of the

19:12

things that graditude can do for

19:18

me, if I have lost a loved one,

19:18

is eventually to become a

19:24

consolation. If, over time, my

19:24

grief at the loss of a loved one

19:33

is replaced by gratitude for

19:33

having had that loved one in my

19:39

life, my Gratitude will become

19:39

my consolation. So that's one of

19:45

the things gratitude can give

19:45

me. Another is a sense of

19:51

gladness. I'm glad to be in a

19:51

world in which I receive

19:56

wonderful gifts from God and

19:56

from my loved ones and from my

19:59

friends. And strong gladness is

19:59

what we call joy. So, yes,

20:08

consolation, joy, and

20:08

generosity.

20:10

I think, over 10 years when I

20:10

was president of Calvin Seminary

20:13

and had to raise money, one of the things I heard most often from prospective donors was

20:14

something like, "God has blessed

20:25

us so richly. It would be really

20:25

appropriate for us to try to

20:31

bless others. So sure, of

20:31

course, I'll give." So that was

20:36

a wonderful thing to see. And I

20:36

suppose that besides having

20:47

lower blood pressure and better

20:47

sleep, it's wonderful also to

20:52

have consolation and joy, and a

20:52

sense of contentment.

21:00

If I'm grateful, as... There's a

21:00

famous saying, "In gratitude,

21:07

literature." Gratitude makes

21:07

what I have enough. And it's

21:14

attributed to various people.

21:14

Nobody knows for sure who first

21:17

said it. And sometimes it's

21:17

attributed to anonymous. But

21:23

gratitude makes what I have

21:23

enough. Gratitude tends toward

21:28

contentment.

21:31

As you say that,

21:31

I'm just thinking about the

21:34

discontent that exists among us,

21:34

right, right now in our country,

21:40

just the discontent around

21:40

politics, the discontent around

21:45

the economy, the discontent

21:45

around different things in

21:50

motion. A lot of discontent is,

21:50

if we're honest, stoked by

21:55

people who call themselves

21:55

Christians, people who call

21:58

themselves followers. And it

21:58

seems like church itself is in

22:04

the business of implanting

22:04

gratitude. You talked about that

22:08

in the book as well. You talked

22:08

about the place of worship as a

22:12

central place for where we

22:12

express gratitude. How does the

22:17

church become a place that

22:17

cultivates gratitude?

22:22

Well, in church,

22:22

we are in an atmosphere in which

22:30

we believe that God is present

22:30

by God's Spirit, and that we are

22:35

therefore in the presence of

22:35

God, and in a prime position to

22:40

thank God for all of God's

22:40

gifts. And, of course, our

22:46

prayers and worship are, at

22:46

least partly to give thanks. And

22:53

our sermons can call us to

22:53

thanksgiving. If we preach on

22:59

one of the hanksgiving texts,

22:59

for example, or on God's

23:02

generosity, it's natural for the

23:02

sermon to call us to

23:07

thanksgiving. If we participate

23:07

in the Lord's Supper, we will

23:14

offer thanks for the gifts of

23:14

our savior's body and blood.

23:19

There are a number of places in

23:19

worship in which we are called

23:24

to give thanks, and actually do

23:24

give thanks. And of course, in a

23:30

good round of Christian

23:30

preaching, some of that will

23:34

center the mighty acts of God in

23:34

our lives. Creation, return from

23:39

exile, incarnation, atonement,

23:39

resurrection, Pentecost. So

23:45

rehearsing the mighty acts of

23:45

God is a trigger for giving

23:49

thanks.

23:51

And you talk about

23:51

the Passover and the Jewish use

23:54

of Passover as a moment to claim

23:54

that in a real way, around table

24:00

in worship, the remembering of

24:00

what God has done, the benefit

24:06

for them. I wonder...

24:08

In the Passover... I'm sorry. In the Passover

24:10

liturgy, there is this wonderful

24:10

No, go ahead. Go ahead. device called the Dayenu. So the

24:14

Passover liturgy will say, "If

24:20

you had brought us, simply

24:20

brought us out of Egypt, Dayenu,

24:25

it would have been enough. If

24:25

you had split the Red Sea, only

24:32

split the Red Sea, Dayenu, it

24:32

would have been enough. If you

24:36

had brought us through the Red

24:36

Sea on dry ground, Dayenu, it

24:40

wouldn't have been enough." On

24:40

and on and on. The repetition of

24:44

Dayenu stitching together all

24:44

the sub parts of God's mighty

24:49

act of Exodus. And that's a

24:49

peculiar, in the positive sense,

24:56

characteristic feature of the

24:56

Passover liturgy.

25:00

Where can

25:00

somebody find that liturgy? That

25:02

is fascinating and beautiful.

25:02

Like, where would be a source

25:06

for that?

25:07

I think I just

25:07

Googled Passover liturgy because

25:10

I had read someplace about the

25:10

Dayenu. And I think I got a

25:15

bunch of sites, I can't tell you

25:15

which ones.

25:17

It's on page 18 in the book.

25:19

It's on page 18 in the book. There you go.

25:21

Yeah, one of the

25:21

parts. You know, it's easy, I

25:25

think, when there are big

25:25

displays of blessing, power,

25:28

goodness, help, and assistance

25:28

in our lives, not just from God

25:33

from but from others, to name

25:33

gratitude, to be grateful. But

25:41

what if you're in a place in

25:41

life, where it's hard to define

25:45

the benefit, to use the

25:45

terminology from your definition

25:49

of gratitude? How do we, how can

25:49

someone maintain that grateful

25:55

disposition, when it doesn't

25:55

feel like there's much around

25:59

them to be grateful for?

26:02

Well, I don't

26:02

want to minimize the drag on our

26:06

gratitude of bad circumstances

26:06

in life, they can make us

26:12

situationally depressed. And

26:12

when we are depressed, it's

26:15

really hard to give thanks. But

26:15

Christians and Jews and

26:23

generally wise people over the

26:23

years have figured out that it

26:29

could always be worse. There is

26:29

always something in a situation

26:35

that we can be grateful for,

26:35

even if three quarters of the

26:38

situation is something we reject

26:38

or find... What do I want to

26:48

say? You'll find dark, shadowy.

26:51

So, you know, I don't... It

26:51

doesn't make me grateful, I

26:58

don't like having to clean up

26:58

after Thanksgiving dinner, but I

27:01

am grateful that this means I

27:01

was just surrounded by family

27:05

and friends. I'm not grateful

27:05

that I have to pay taxes next

27:10

Monday. But that I owe taxes

27:10

means I've got an income. And

27:15

I'm grateful for that. I'm not

27:15

grateful for having to clean

27:20

gutters and shovel snow and the

27:20

rest, but I am grateful to have

27:24

a roof over my head. So there is

27:24

something in situations that we

27:31

can find to be grateful for. And

27:31

that is a redeeming way to go

27:38

through life.

27:39

There was a

27:39

dimension of one of the chapters

27:43

where you talk about savoring.

27:43

So this idea that gratitude,

27:49

when offered and shared and

27:49

practiced as a habit, it can

27:53

create a virtuous cycle rather

27:53

than a vicious cycle. And if you

27:58

kind of keep that moving, then

27:58

savoring becomes... It's a

28:04

richness to life. And there's

28:04

this really nice paragraph with

28:08

Barbara Kingsolver that you

28:08

offer: "Our Holiday Food splurge

28:14

was a small crate tangerines,

28:14

which we found ridiculously

28:18

thrilling, after an eight month

28:18

abstinence from citrus. Lily

28:23

hugged each one to her chest

28:23

before undressing it gently as a

28:27

doll. Watching her do that as

28:27

she sat cross legged on the

28:32

floor one morning and pink

28:32

pajamas with bliss lighting her

28:36

cheeks, I thought, 'Lucky is the

28:36

world to receive this grateful

28:40

child.'" Oh, that's so good.

28:40

That is so good.

28:44

A beautiful paragraph.

28:45

Beautiful.

28:46

Yeah. Yeah, that

28:46

chapter opens with an edition

28:55

of, a version of a book called

28:55

"Thanks A Thousand" by AJ

29:03

Jacobs. And he tells in this

29:03

book of being intrigued by his

29:09

morning cup of coffee and

29:09

decided that he wanted to find

29:15

out how many people were

29:15

involved in getting him a cup of

29:20

coffee, handed over by a barista

29:20

in his local coffee shop. And he

29:25

estimated that it was many

29:25

hundreds, perhaps a thousand

29:29

people--people who had to grow

29:29

the coffee beans, to harvest the

29:34

coffee beans, to ship the beans,

29:34

to grind the beans if they were

29:39

being ground. People who had to

29:39

supply fresh, good tasting water

29:46

from the Catskills to New York

29:46

City where he lived. All kinds

29:50

of people with all kinds of

29:50

pallets and forklifts and trucks

29:55

and what have you involved in

29:55

getting him his morning cup of

30:00

coffee. And he says that if you buy it

30:02

in a specially designed cup, as

30:09

his coffee shop provides, it's

30:09

designed to let you savor the

30:15

aroma of the coffee. You have to

30:15

have your face close to the cup

30:20

to sip. And he gives thanks for

30:20

the people who designed that

30:24

cup. He said, "It helps me every

30:24

morning when I drink my cup of

30:29

coffee, to savor it, to enjoy

30:29

it, to spend time with it, to

30:35

focus on it, and bring to mind

30:35

all the people who had a hand in

30:42

putting it into my hand."

30:44

So I want to

30:44

move in a slightly more

30:46

theological direction. So if

30:46

gratitude towards people and

30:53

general gratitude is a helpful

30:53

practice and maybe something

30:58

that everybody has access to.

30:58

Certainly everybody also has

31:02

access to giving thanks to God,

31:02

one of the things I've heard

31:07

some wise spiritual directors or

31:07

teachers of the faith say to me

31:12

is that there's a distinction

31:12

that can be made between

31:16

thanksgiving and praise. This

31:16

sense that you're thanking God

31:20

for something that God has done,

31:20

but praising God for who God is.

31:27

Is that the way you think of it?

31:27

Or do you think of it in a

31:29

different way?

31:30

Well, that

31:30

distinction is worth

31:33

considering. I would point out,

31:33

however, that in the Psalms, the

31:41

words for gratitude and praise

31:41

of God in connection with God's

31:49

gifts, make praise and

31:49

gratitude, at least where praise

31:54

is about God's gifts, look

31:54

pretty much the same. But yes,

32:00

praise is strictly speaking,

32:00

acclamation. It's making a fuss.

32:05

It's calling attention to and

32:05

expressing the value of God and

32:13

God's gifts and God's

32:13

faithfulness. So it's a

32:18

distinction worth thinking

32:18

about. It's maybe not completely

32:23

consistent across scripture.

32:25

Yeah, I think

32:25

that sounds right. The way that

32:28

I've heard it described is, you

32:28

know, coming back into a human

32:32

context, the first time my wife

32:32

changed the diaper of one of our

32:37

children, I came to say, thanks,

32:37

thanks for changing the diaper.

32:42

But over the course of time,

32:42

after diaper after diaper gets

32:46

changed, after meal after meal

32:46

gets served, day after day after

32:50

day of consistent, faithful love

32:50

that's offered to our kids, I

32:55

can come to a point where I

32:55

would say, "You are such a

32:59

wonderful wife," and that,

32:59

that's a different thing. It's a

33:03

way of praising someone for who

33:03

God is, or praising my wife for

33:08

who she is, rather than for the

33:08

actions done.

33:12

And I do think that if you can

33:12

come to a place where you're

33:15

praising, in addition to giving

33:15

thanks, there is a sense that

33:19

you can rely upon a person's

33:19

character, and also maybe look

33:22

forward. There is this kind of

33:22

forward-looking dimension to I

33:26

think, both gratitude and

33:26

praise. You know, I think about

33:29

Samuel, who says, "Thus far the

33:29

Lord has helped," "Here I raise

33:32

my Ebenezer. Thus far the Lord

33:32

has helped us," and that becomes

33:37

not just a backwards-looking,

33:37

"I'm grateful for what has

33:41

happened," but a

33:41

forward-looking, you know,

33:44

almost like it's something that

33:44

deepens trust, and maybe even

33:47

gives hope.

33:47

I was gonna say,

33:47

yeah, at that point it's

33:50

become... Gratitude has led to a

33:50

trust. And maybe that's also one

33:54

One of the most

33:54

common expressions of hope in

33:55

of the pieces of a life of

33:55

gratitude, that it allows us to

33:59

extend deeper and deeper trust

33:59

to those around us who continue

34:03

to gift us. They feel that...

34:11

the Bible is along this line.

34:11

"God has delivered us before. No

34:18

doubt he will deliver us again."

34:20

Yes.

34:20

We can always hope. Yeah.

34:23

One of the things

34:23

that I loved about the book that

34:26

was unexpected was you

34:26

mentioned, you talk a lot about

34:31

what gratitude does for us

34:31

personally: blood pressure,

34:35

contentment, those things. But

34:35

then there's a section on the

34:38

impact of gratitude on the life

34:38

of the church. You talk about

34:43

how gratitude promotes unity in

34:43

the church. Nothing in the

34:47

church defeats rivalry and

34:47

cliques better than gratitude,

34:51

mutual gratitude, Christ and

34:51

mutual gratitude for each other.

34:57

We know, Chris and I are part of

34:57

a tribe that is splintering

35:02

right now. We've seen United

35:02

Methodist churches individually

35:07

splinter. And as I read that,

35:07

part of me was sad, because I

35:13

sense that much of the pain has

35:13

been a loss of gratitude for the

35:19

other. How would you encourage

35:19

churches in the practice of

35:24

gratitude in a way that leads to

35:24

unity?

35:27

I think a

35:27

healthy church will call

35:33

attention to the kindnesses and

35:33

generosities of its members.

35:39

Some of you know that we had a

35:39

funeral this past Thursday. I

35:46

would like you to consider who

35:46

made the food and served it for

35:52

that reception after the

35:52

funeral. And then name some of

35:56

the people, maybe the name of

35:56

the person who headed up the

36:00

hospitality committee. We are

36:00

all so grateful and if those

36:04

people are in church to you for

36:04

your generosity and kindness.

36:08

A healthy church lifts up

36:08

members who do good things, and

36:13

praises them gives, thanks for

36:13

them. And that tends to foster a

36:19

climate of appreciation,

36:19

gratitude among members of the

36:24

church. And I think that

36:24

gratitude is, therefore, a

36:28

ligament of church unity. It's

36:28

one of the things that ties us

36:34

together, that we are saying

36:34

thank you to each other for

36:39

goodness is rendered. It's a

36:39

powerful virtue, and it has some

36:44

wonderful beneficial effects in

36:44

groups as well as individually.

36:50

You know, as I

36:50

think about that, think about

36:53

the role of pastors modeling

36:53

that, as you just said, thanking

36:57

particular people. I think about

36:57

there's a person in the church

37:02

here in Oxford, Mississippi, who

37:02

writes thank you notes

37:06

consistently. No, not just

37:06

texts, not just emails, but hand

37:11

writes thank you notes to

37:11

people. There was a member of

37:15

the church in Jackson, older

37:15

fella named Marcus, almost every

37:20

week while I was there, I got a

37:20

thank you note for, you know,

37:24

they were different every week

37:24

something else he noticed in the

37:28

life of the church that he was

37:28

grateful for.

37:32

When somebody

37:32

does that kind of thing, it gets

37:35

noticed. I have talked with very

37:35

prosperous people who knew the

37:43

first President Bush, and when

37:43

he had been with them, and left,

37:52

as his plane was ascending, he

37:52

was writing thank you notes to

37:57

all the people he'd just met. He

37:57

was so inclined to do it, that

38:02

somebody claimed to have gotten

38:02

a thank you note from him for

38:05

their thank you note.

38:08

There's a man that

38:08

I know that, whenever I write

38:13

him a thank you note, I get a

38:13

thank you note back.

38:16

There you go.

38:17

It's amazing.

38:18

As many rounds as you'd like.

38:20

If I wrote him a thank you note for the thank you note, I'd get another one. He

38:22

not going to be out done. And

38:27

what a gift to be thankful for

38:27

being thanked. It's usually not

38:33

just to thank you for... It's

38:33

usually a note about

38:37

something... Anyway, I...

38:39

But you can

38:39

tell. You can tell from this,

38:42

why gratitude is a ligament of

38:42

unity. Because people not only

38:48

love gifts, they love to be

38:48

thanked for gifts. And others

38:54

love it that they love to be

38:54

thanked for gifts, so that it

38:59

tends to go round and round.

39:01

Well, and if you

39:01

can name to someone how they

39:05

have gifted you--and this goes

39:05

for families to ,you know, not

39:08

just churches, but families,

39:08

friendships, friendship groups.

39:12

I just think that when you're

39:12

able to name something that

39:15

someone's done for you to them,

39:15

there's something there now

39:20

ensconced in memory, in reality,

39:20

that when the thing comes up,

39:26

that would try to divide you,

39:26

there's a counterweight that is

39:32

pre-existent to that.

39:34

Right. And if

39:34

you are specific in your thanks,

39:38

what it was exactly that you

39:38

found so delightful about

39:42

somebody's gift to you, then

39:42

they know as well that your

39:46

thanks is not routine.

39:47

Right.

39:48

It's customized.

39:51

What are your

39:51

practices of gratitude?

39:54

Well, I have a

39:54

gratitude journal where I list

40:00

at the end of the day, or close

40:00

to the end of the day, at least

40:05

six things that I found

40:05

especially wonderful that day. I

40:10

also try really hard to be

40:10

specific in my thanks to God. I

40:20

like table prayers, for example,

40:20

that specify which foods on the

40:25

table we are going to enjoy. I

40:25

think it happens oftener that I

40:33

wish that I have to argue myself

40:33

into being grateful. But I do.

40:39

And I have had to practice from

40:39

time to time pretending to be

40:45

grateful till I am. And those

40:45

things, while they have not

40:51

been, you know, 100% successful,

40:51

have certainly been more

40:55

successful than not.

40:57

Say a little bit

40:57

more about the arguing yourself

40:59

into gratitude. I think that's

40:59

an important habit for us at

41:04

times.

41:06

I mean, what

41:06

if--I think I give an example of

41:09

something like this in the

41:09

book--but what if you have a

41:11

person in your firm, who is

41:11

super talented and outranks you

41:21

and is better paid than you, and

41:21

you have a tendency to resent

41:26

this person. You have a tendency

41:26

to envy this person. You might

41:30

argue with yourself and say,

41:30

"You dimwit. This woman is

41:35

earning you money. She's earning

41:35

our firm money. And if you keep

41:39

on with your sour attitude

41:39

toward her, she's going to

41:41

leave, and she should." You

41:41

argue with yourself to point out

41:46

that your ingratitude is not

41:46

only unbefitting, but it could

41:51

have very deleterious effects on

41:51

your professional life.

41:56

Yeah, I liked that

41:56

section of the book, because I

41:58

get, you know, there's so many

41:58

times where, whether it's

42:01

resentment or my own greed, or

42:01

whatever it is, that, yeah, I

42:06

need that moment of just

42:06

fighting with myself to bring

42:09

myself back to gratitude. I

42:09

thought that was extremely

42:14

helpful.

42:15

And I find

42:15

myself just wanting to

42:20

distribute this, you know. I

42:20

think about... I just think

42:26

about how important the habit

42:26

is. And I think about, my oldest

42:36

child is now 12 and my youngest

42:36

child is sick, so more and more

42:41

often, I'm finding myself in

42:41

conversation with young parents

42:45

and people that are at the very

42:45

beginning. And you could just

42:49

tell these people that I'm

42:49

interacting with are in the

42:53

survival mode. And what I don't

42:53

think that I took enough time, I

43:00

know that I didn't, you know,

43:00

over the first five years of my

43:04

children's life, to simply pause

43:04

and be grateful. I don't know,

43:10

wisdom is wasted, you know. It

43:10

would be really nice to have, I

43:17

don't know... It's so difficult,

43:17

I feel like, when you're just in

43:20

survival mode, to maintain that

43:20

posture. And it's so easy to

43:24

find yourself in a vicious cycle

43:24

of work and no rest and now

43:28

somebody's screaming, and now

43:28

somebody needs something from

43:32

you again, and then you find

43:32

yourself, I mean, far off the

43:35

path of gratitude. And I do think this conversation

43:37

for me has been a bit of a

43:43

reset. And it's so helpful to

43:43

have, you know, a book and some

43:48

ideas that have been collected

43:48

together to express both some of

43:52

the theological truth, but also

43:52

the deep wisdom and science

43:59

behind it, to just kind of

43:59

deepen the intention, and

44:04

hopefully, the practice for me

44:04

personally. So I'm very grateful

44:07

for this book.

44:09

Thank you. I'm

44:09

so glad to have your good words.

44:13

One of the things

44:13

that in the book I noticed was

44:18

almost a call to confession,

44:18

naming our own brokenness and

44:22

naming our own failings, naming

44:22

our own sin, so that we can be

44:27

clear about what we receive, the

44:27

grace and the goodness of God

44:31

that we receive.

44:33

Yeah, you know,

44:33

whatever else sin is, it is

44:41

primarily a spoiler. So my

44:41

entitlement spoils my gratitude.

44:50

My cynicism spoils my gratitude.

44:50

Sin spoils good things. And it's

45:01

important to call it out for

45:01

that. And to assure people that

45:07

your call to lay down sin isn't

45:07

arbitrary. You're hurting your

45:12

own life. You're grieving God,

45:12

you're alarming your neighbors,

45:17

but you're also hurting your own

45:17

life. "Sin," said Augustine, "is

45:19

a form of self abuse."

45:23

I wonder, you

45:23

know, one of the things over the

45:26

course of our two conversations

45:26

that I am so grateful for in

45:32

conversation with you is just

45:32

that you have a depth of

45:34

spiritual wisdom. I can tell

45:34

that you're a person of prayer.

45:39

I wonder, I might take a risk in

45:39

asking, if you wouldn't, iendn

45:43

the conversation today, we're

45:43

nearing the end of the day. And

45:47

I wonder if you wouldn't mind

45:47

praying a prayer of gratitude

45:52

for this particular day, you

45:52

know, for those who may be

45:56

listening to kind of lead us

45:56

into a time of prayer. Is that

46:00

something that you would be willing to do?

46:03

Yes.

46:04

Thank you. And

46:04

maybe we can just end here, with

46:08

a prayer of gratitude. That

46:08

would be amazing.

46:10

All right. Let

46:10

us pray to God. Gracious God,

46:14

you are the one who has spread

46:14

out all the expanse of the

46:19

heavens, dug the depths of lakes

46:19

and seas. You are the one who

46:25

has imagined worlds and then, by

46:25

your powerful hand, brought them

46:31

into being. You are august and

46:31

supreme beyond all of our

46:36

thinking. And yet, you're as

46:36

close as our own beating heart.

46:41

We give you thanks for your

46:41

goodness, for your greatness,

46:47

for the ways in which your gifts

46:47

find us every day, and lodge

46:52

themselves in our lives and help

46:52

us thrive. You make our lives

46:58

not only possible, but also

46:58

interesting and flourishing.

47:03

Thank you for the great work of

47:03

Your Son Jesus Christ, for his

47:09

atoning death and resurrection.

47:09

Thank you for the Holy Spirit

47:14

and the Church, mighty across

47:14

the ages. We give you thanks, O

47:20

God, for all your goodness, and

47:20

ask you in turn to inspire our

47:25

gratitude today and always. In

47:25

Jesus's Holy Name. Amen.

47:34

[OUTRO] Thanks for

47:34

listening. If you've enjoyed the

47:37

podcast, the best way to help us

47:37

is to like, subscribe, or leave

47:40

a review.

47:40

If you would like to support this word financially or if you have an

47:42

idea for a future guest, you can

47:45

go to theweightpodcast.com. [END

47:45

OUTRO]