0:07

Do you feel

0:07

like it's possible to find joy

0:10

and positive change within

0:10

veterinary medicine? Are you

0:13

looking for a community that's

0:13

striving for fulfillment rather

0:17

than perfection? Hey there, I'm

0:17

Dr. Stacey Cordivano. I want

0:22

veterinarians to learn to be

0:22

happier, healthier, wealthier,

0:26

and more grateful for the lives

0:26

that we've created. On this

0:29

podcast I will speak with

0:29

outside of the box thinkers to

0:32

hear new ideas on ways to

0:32

improve our day to day lives.

0:36

Welcome to the hole veterinarian

0:49

Hey there, this episode is so

0:49

amazing, you are gonna get tons

0:53

of actionable information today.

0:53

I'm so excited to introduce Dr.

0:57

Christine stain. She is the

0:57

founder of the veterinary MBA

1:01

and the mission of her company

1:01

is to help veterinary practice

1:05

owners thrive by providing real

1:05

world business education and

1:09

resources born from Christine's

1:09

20 plus years of service as a

1:13

veterinary practitioner and

1:13

practice owner. Christine

1:15

understands the difficulties

1:15

that veterinary practice owners

1:18

face on a daily basis. And it's

1:18

her goal to provide high quality

1:22

concise business information for

1:22

practice owners from a pure

1:25

perspective, she is so generous

1:25

in what she shares both on

1:28

social media and in today's

1:28

episode, so make sure to check

1:32

out the show notes for ways to

1:32

connect with her. You'll be able

1:35

to find her online, find her

1:35

courses and connect with her see

1:38

if there's anything else she may

1:38

be able to help you with. She is

1:41

so passionate about this

1:41

project, and I am so thankful of

1:46

the time that she spent with me.

1:46

I hope you enjoy this episode.

1:50

If you found it helpful, please

1:50

share it with a friend because

1:53

we all know that almost

1:53

everybody out there and vet med

1:56

is in need of tips and tricks to

1:56

improve hiring in their

1:59

practices. Please make sure to

1:59

let us know what you think.

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2:21

Hey, Christine, how are you?

2:23

I'm fantastic. How are you doing?

2:25

I'm pretty good. Thank you for being here with me today. We have a lot to

2:27

talk about. And I am curious if

2:32

you can tell listeners, before

2:32

we really dig in a little bit

2:37

more about yourself and your

2:37

journey and like why an MBA and

2:41

where you're kind of at now.

2:43

Sure. It

2:43

starts a lot further back when I

2:46

was an undergrad actually after

2:46

I was an undergrad. Since I was

2:50

five years old. I always knew I

2:50

wanted to be an obstetrician. I

2:54

had no desire to be a

2:54

veterinarian. And that's like

2:58

that's like the opposite of

2:58

like, since I was five years old

3:00

know what everyone else shows

3:00

like since I was five years old.

3:03

I wanted to move it. That's

3:03

awesome. Right? My puppy didn't

3:05

die from Parvo like I have no

3:05

good story of why I wanted to be

3:09

a veterinarian at the beginning.

3:09

So I was a pre med student, I

3:12

volunteered at human hospitals.

3:12

I was pre med and had a pre med

3:18

club. I started at my high

3:18

school, I was pre med all

3:21

through my undergraduate I took

3:21

my MCAT I applied to medical

3:24

school. I went in interviewed at

3:24

medical schools, and I did seven

3:28

interviews back then

3:28

everything's live. And every

3:33

single interviewer asked me, Why

3:33

do you want to be a

3:35

veterinarian? Which I thought

3:35

was super weird. So and I

3:40

stumbled over the answer. And

3:40

the reason they asked me this I

3:44

now know is because I was a

3:44

forage kid. I had multiple

3:48

animals at my house I raised and

3:48

showed goats a right or I had

3:52

horses that I showed, I showed

3:52

my dogs. I have probably seven

3:57

species in four h i was a forage

3:57

leader at that time, there was

4:01

something I was really

4:01

passionate about. So anyway, I

4:04

come back and I have my eighth

4:04

interview I have to go to and so

4:06

I took pen to paper to say I

4:06

need to write an answer to this

4:11

question like Why don't want to

4:11

be a veterinarian? Because I

4:14

don't want to stumble.

4:15

Why don't you

4:15

want to be a veterinarian? Okay,

4:18

I misunderstood you. I thought

4:18

you said they were asking why do

4:21

you Okay, okay, that makes more sense.

4:22

Oh, no, sorry.

4:22

They said why don't you want to

4:25

be a veterinarian? And I got an

4:25

answer. Well, so I literally put

4:28

pen to paper thinking, I need an

4:28

answer to this so I don't

4:33

stumble and it hit me honestly,

4:33

like why don't I want to be a

4:36

veterinarian. So I super

4:36

analytical. I set up a pro con

4:42

list of physician and

4:42

veterinarian and I wrote things

4:46

out and there were lots and lots

4:46

of reasons to be a veterinarian

4:51

that immediately made me switch

4:51

like I pulled all my

4:54

applications from medical school

4:54

because I didn't want to know if

4:57

I got in and then I had to call

4:57

my parents and tell them I did

5:00

This, after all this time and

5:00

investment that they had helped

5:03

me through, that I was married

5:03

at the time, and my husband and

5:06

I decided that we're just going

5:06

to do this crazy thing. And one

5:10

of the main reasons was

5:10

entrepreneurialship. So I knew I

5:14

wanted to own a practice. And in

5:14

the world of being a physician,

5:17

owning a practice is a lot

5:17

harder. There were lots of other

5:21

reasons. But for what we're

5:21

talking about today, I knew I

5:24

wanted to own a business, and

5:24

that that was important to me.

5:27

And that was a main reason that

5:27

I switched veterinary medicine,

5:30

I had to go back to college and

5:30

take more classes. I worked with

5:33

my local veterinarian who'd been

5:33

my vet since I was nine years

5:36

old, for a long time, and then

5:36

was blessed to get in to

5:40

veterinary school and never

5:40

looked back. And so grateful for

5:43

what I did. So I knew I wanted

5:43

to be a business owner.

5:47

Immediately the practice I was

5:47

going into as a solo

5:50

practitioner, she'd been

5:50

ambulatory by herself, nobody

5:54

for 20 years. And we had talked

5:54

prior to me joining her that the

5:59

path to ownership was already

5:59

established in my first

6:02

contract. So we had a five year

6:02

path to ownership in my first

6:05

contract, because she was

6:05

excited about me wanting to do

6:09

things with the practice. And it

6:09

turned out to be only three

6:13

years, within three years, we

6:13

hit all the marks that we wanted

6:16

to hit, and I was able to buy

6:16

into that practice three years

6:18

out of vet school. So I loved

6:18

that part, always. And I always

6:25

wanted to get an MBA. And I

6:25

always wanted to be a really

6:28

good business leader. And I

6:28

wasn't at the beginning. But my

6:32

partner had no interest in the

6:32

business side of it. But she

6:35

loved that the practice was

6:35

gaining equity, as she.

6:42

So it was a good relationship.

6:42

And she retired seven years ago,

6:47

I think. So I've been a sole

6:47

owner since then. But we built

6:50

the practice up from just the

6:50

two of us to now over 55 people

6:55

and I wanted to do better, I

6:55

always want to do better, I want

6:59

to lead better, I want to build

6:59

better, I want to create a good

7:02

place for people to work,

7:02

honestly. So going back to get

7:06

my MBA was for my practice, it

7:06

was just kind of selfish, like,

7:11

I want to learn this better, so

7:11

that I can apply it to my

7:13

practice.

7:14

That's amazing. I think that's very admirable. I think we could use

7:16

a lot more really good leaders

7:21

in veterinary medicine, to be

7:21

honest, if we're thinking about

7:24

culture change, and you know,

7:24

making veterinary medicine a

7:27

more positive place. Okay, so we

7:27

talked before we recorded about

7:34

what we want to talk about,

7:34

because you and I are both

7:36

interested in a lot of similar

7:36

topics. But I think one that I

7:41

haven't talked about much on

7:41

here and actually myself

7:44

personally could use insight on

7:44

is hiring team members. So you

7:49

just mentioned you went from two

7:49

to 55. So I think you have some

7:54

experience in hiring. So I'm

7:54

curious, where do you even

7:58

start?

7:59

Well, I started by making a lot of mistakes, I did it wrong. And I

8:01

was the hire like I was the HR

8:05

person at the beginning for

8:05

quite a while. My husband quit

8:09

his job and joined our practice

8:09

in oh six, because we really

8:14

needed help. And he was a

8:14

manager in the utilities area,

8:18

nothing to do with veterinary medicine, but he knew how to manage. And he's currently our

8:20

CFO and does all of that part.

8:24

So I've not done a lot of the

8:24

money part myself. But in terms

8:28

of HR that was on me for quite a

8:28

while I now have a manager that

8:31

does that for me. But I think

8:31

the first thing now looking back

8:36

what we need to do and what we

8:36

do now, that's much better is we

8:38

have to understand our purpose,

8:38

what is our mission? What is our

8:43

vision, what are our core

8:43

values, and we have to really

8:46

care about those deeply to know

8:46

who we want to hire, they have

8:50

to care about them, too. And we

8:50

hire for our core values, almost

8:54

exclusively. Like that's the

8:54

number one important thing. The

8:57

people that we hire have to

8:57

align with, where we're going,

9:01

and how we're getting there. And

9:01

if they don't, they're going to

9:04

throw us all off track, even if

9:04

they're great at what they do.

9:07

And there's some phenomenal

9:07

technicians and veterinarians in

9:11

this town that we didn't hire,

9:11

or we did hire originally that

9:16

did not fit our what we needed,

9:16

and they're doing great jobs at

9:21

the practices they are is no

9:21

reflection of their ability or

9:25

their performance. It just

9:25

didn't align with ours. So that

9:27

alignment, to me is just number

9:27

one. There's nothing you can do.

9:32

You just can't get where you

9:32

want to go if you don't pull the

9:34

right people onto your team. So

9:34

that's important. And then that

9:38

includes lots of things. So we

9:38

have, you know, things like

9:42

policy manuals that people

9:42

probably have, but they don't

9:45

like they just have to have them

9:45

for legal reasons. Ours matters

9:48

RS is really important. We make

9:48

them go over it. They read it

9:51

before they accept the position

9:51

in our building. They read it.

9:55

We pay them to sit and read

9:55

through it ask questions. We

9:59

have a code of code conduct

9:59

which is similar to a policy

10:02

manual, but it's line by line,

10:02

they initial we go over each

10:05

thing with them, you know, this

10:05

is how we behave here. Is this

10:09

something you want, and you can

10:09

say, No, I don't want to work

10:12

there. Great. Let's figure that

10:12

out before you get in, in our

10:15

building. Before we do that, all

10:15

these things, then we run tests,

10:19

we do personality tests, we have

10:19

an outside company that

10:22

interprets those for us, it's

10:22

not always a deal breaker, but

10:25

it helps us know how they learn

10:25

best. And if the role that we're

10:29

hiring for if they might be not

10:29

a good fit, or a good fit for it

10:33

based on personality tests. So I

10:33

think setting all that up having

10:37

structure, having somebody who's

10:37

going to care about the

10:41

interview process, and somebody

10:41

who's going to care about the

10:44

training and onboarding, ahead

10:44

of time is really important,

10:48

because you don't want to hire

10:48

this great person, bring him in,

10:51

and then they're just frustrated

10:51

and flustered because we're not

10:53

training and well. So getting

10:53

that established has been really

10:57

beneficial to us in our practice

10:57

in getting the right people in

11:00

the door.

11:01

Okay, so there

11:01

was a lot of good information

11:03

there. And we could talk about

11:03

core values and like a whole

11:07

separate podcast interview. But

11:07

practically speaking, what does

11:13

that actually look like, from a

11:13

practical sense? So like, are

11:16

all of your interviewees paid?

11:16

So you mentioned you, like pay

11:21

them to sit there and read? So

11:21

is this like a multi day process

11:25

is a multi step like how kind of

11:25

in a more practical sense? Okay,

11:30

so

11:31

we break up

11:31

our interviews, and this is

11:34

like, super, the basics of it.

11:34

Yeah. But we break up our

11:39

interview, we get a lot of

11:39

applicants, which is really

11:41

great, because we do a lot of

11:41

things to get a lot of

11:44

applicants. One is that our

11:44

culture attracts them. But also

11:47

we look everywhere. Like if I

11:47

see a waitress that I like, I'm

11:50

like, I want a job. And we've

11:50

gotten people like that, because

11:55

we're looking for people that we

11:55

really think would be a good

11:58

fit, not necessarily skill sets.

11:58

So we have a system. And the

12:03

quick version is it's very

12:03

quick, we get a bunch of

12:06

applications, we skim through

12:06

them very quickly, we know what

12:09

we're looking for, for that

12:09

particular position that we're

12:12

looking for. So we can eliminate

12:12

some of those pretty quickly.

12:15

Then the other part of that is

12:15

we have directions on how to

12:19

apply. And if anyone applies,

12:19

that doesn't apply fall in this

12:23

directions, we're not going to

12:23

go look at him, like we need to

12:25

know that you can follow

12:25

directions. That's important for

12:28

learning. And then we do a five

12:28

minute phone interview super

12:32

quick. We know we asked us a few

12:32

questions, and we eliminate half

12:35

the people in that, then we

12:35

bring them in for a group

12:39

interview. And we do a group

12:39

interview, which is awkward to

12:43

some people.

12:44

Yeah. Is that

12:44

a group of applicant applicants?

12:47

Like multiple applicants for the

12:47

same position? Yes. Oh, okay.

12:51

Yeah,

12:51

yeah. So it's

12:51

really fun, because you learn a

12:54

lot in a group interview,

12:54

because you see them interact

12:56

with each other. Anyway, then we

12:56

do individual interviews, then

13:00

we do what we call skills

13:00

assessment, but it's really a

13:03

working interview, but you can't

13:03

call it that we don't pay for

13:05

any of those things. So none of

13:05

that's paid for. Then when we're

13:09

getting down to the last person,

13:09

and we make the offer. That's

13:13

when we say you're the person

13:13

that we think we want. And

13:17

that's go over all this stuff.

13:17

Now, that's a paid time. We're

13:20

paying you to go through all

13:20

this stuff with us. So they're

13:26

essentially employed, under the

13:26

conditions, they agree to all

13:30

these things. And we agreed to,

13:30

you know, their schedule works

13:33

and stuff like that. And that's

13:33

before they're actually

13:36

physically working in the clinic.

13:38

Got it? Okay,

13:38

that's helpful. I think I never

13:41

would have imagined all those

13:41

steps. And but like you said,

13:44

some of them are really quick.

13:44

And it's a good way to weed

13:47

people out, I can imagine

13:47

someone out there saying, like,

13:51

I don't have time to do all that.

13:53

So quick,

13:53

takes the same amount of time

13:55

for us to process 10

13:55

applications and use two for

13:59

one. group interviews make it

13:59

really quick. We know what

14:03

questions we're asking. It's not

14:03

this long, drawn out process, an

14:07

interview of 10 people, a group

14:07

interview, plus the group

14:11

interview, plus individual

14:11

interviewing all 10 of those

14:14

people. It's like an hour, or an

14:14

hour and a half. And that's what

14:18

we used to spend on one person.

14:18

So I think we just are, we know

14:21

what we want. I think that's the

14:21

big part we know are looking for

14:25

now. And we can see that better,

14:25

because we're used to looking

14:30

for it and asking the right questions.

14:32

And so that's

14:32

based around core value your

14:36

practices, core values, but also

14:36

what the job description or

14:40

yes, yeah, and

14:40

I didn't mention that before,

14:43

which you need a really good job

14:43

description obviously to, so we

14:46

know what we're looking for. We

14:46

want them to see that and see

14:49

what they're looking for too. So

14:49

in the actual ad, our ads are

14:53

super brief. Hey, want to work

14:53

here. If you're hard working and

14:57

you want to work at Adobe apply,

14:57

like That's literally, it's not,

15:02

you have to have all these

15:02

things. Now they can go to our

15:04

website and get all the

15:04

information on how to apply. And

15:09

then it doesn't even have the

15:09

whole job description, but it

15:11

has enough stuff there to help.

15:11

But the job descriptions were

15:15

literally describes everything

15:15

that they're supposed to do, and

15:18

they're gonna do and what

15:18

they're responsible for.

15:20

Okay, I like

15:20

it, that's really helpful for me

15:24

personally. So I'm sure it's

15:24

helpful for someone else out

15:27

there, too. I feel like I've

15:27

fallen into a little bit of a

15:30

mental trap of like, I'm not

15:30

good at hiring people, because I

15:33

had a couple of ticks, you know,

15:33

we I was working one on one with

15:37

them. So it has to be like just

15:37

the right person. And I went

15:40

through a couple of people and

15:40

started getting like PTSD about

15:45

hiring, but I did not do any of

15:45

those things. So I'm definitely

15:49

taking notes for the future.

15:49

Okay. So another thing that I

15:54

wanted to talk to you about,

15:54

because I think this could be

15:57

really helpful for a lot of

15:57

people, and it's a novel idea is

16:00

once you have this awesome team

16:00

member, and like your group of

16:03

team members, paying them in a

16:03

way that, you know, rewards,

16:10

continued growth and things. And

16:10

you have talked about this idea

16:13

of a tear based compensation

16:13

system. So I'm hoping you can

16:17

elaborate for everybody, and

16:17

then kind of explain why it

16:21

works. So well.

16:22

Yeah, well,

16:22

all of my explanations have to

16:26

start with the why and the why

16:26

is always the mistakes they

16:29

made. So early on, when I was

16:29

HR, I would hire people and I

16:34

had no idea how to pay them, I

16:34

had no idea what to hire them

16:38

not, I would hire them at a wage

16:38

that turned out to be higher

16:41

than I should have, sometimes or

16:41

lower than I should have. Or I

16:44

offered them a wage and they

16:44

left because they didn't take

16:47

the job when I really should

16:47

have hired them at a higher

16:50

wage, like it was just too hard

16:50

for me. And I'm saying with

16:54

raises, and I didn't know how to

16:54

give raises when to give raises.

16:57

We tried the annual performance

16:57

review that was just kind of

17:00

weird. And, and I didn't love

17:00

that you were just getting

17:04

raises because you physically

17:04

been here. We also tried, what

17:08

ultimately happened is somebody

17:08

would come to me and they

17:10

present I think I should get a

17:10

raise because and I'd go You're

17:14

right, here's your raise. And

17:14

then so then the quiet people

17:17

weren't getting

17:18

the raises, like I was gonna say, Yeah, this for anyone who never did that

17:20

yet,

17:21

right. So I'm

17:21

a horrible leader in there like

17:23

that. I just did it horribly.

17:23

And I didn't know that I could

17:27

get much better at it. I

17:27

recognized in myself like, this

17:30

is something you're horrible at.

17:30

And what happened, it was back

17:33

when we had physical pay stubs

17:33

that you got paper pay stubs,

17:38

and a bunch of people went out

17:38

to dinner, from the practice.

17:42

And they all showed each other

17:42

the pay stubs. And that was what

17:45

it took for me because they are

17:45

mad, and they should have been

17:48

mad. They were all making

17:48

different amounts. Every one of

17:52

them felt like they like there

17:52

was somebody was making more

17:55

than them that they should be

17:55

making more than it was it

17:59

created a lot of problems in our

17:59

clinic. And I created those

18:02

problems. And I recognize that

18:02

and when they came back in, in

18:06

this mob and slammed their pay

18:06

stubs on the desk, I looked up,

18:10

and I said yeah, I'm really bad

18:10

at this. Like I don't know how

18:13

to fix it. And the worst part

18:13

is, I couldn't fix it. Right

18:16

then because I couldn't just

18:16

raise everybody up to the higher

18:19

person because I couldn't afford

18:19

to. So I lost some good people

18:23

because of that, because they

18:23

were upset, and they didn't

18:25

trust me anymore. And they

18:25

shouldn't have trusted me. One

18:29

of my core values is integrity,

18:29

one of our clinics is and when I

18:32

broke that they were gone. So I

18:32

said, Well, how can we do this

18:36

better, I pay my doctors based

18:36

on performance, but that's based

18:39

on what they're bringing in

18:39

financially. And that doesn't

18:42

translate exactly to everyone in

18:42

the clinic that can't translate

18:45

to a receptionist or they can't

18:45

always translate to a technician

18:49

either truthfully. So I set on

18:49

this journey to create this tear

18:54

based compensation that was

18:54

basically performance based and

18:57

self motivated. And it took me

18:57

way longer than it should have.

19:01

It took me four and a half years

19:01

to build this out for my

19:04

practice. And it works

19:04

wonderfully. But we've used it

19:10

now for over 10 years. And it

19:10

attracts the people that we

19:13

want, and it retains the people

19:13

that we want. So what it is, is

19:18

everyone that's hired is hired

19:18

at Tier zero, no matter. There's

19:22

exceptions, and it's kind of

19:22

more complicated than this, but

19:24

it doesn't need to be complicated. They're hired at Tier zero. When they're in

19:26

training, they're tier zero, and

19:29

then they have to hit tier one

19:29

within 90 days. And then after

19:34

that it's all based on their own

19:34

timing, like when they want to

19:38

proceed up so each tier has hard

19:38

skills, soft skills and

19:41

knowledge in it. And they're

19:41

things like place five IV

19:47

catheters in a cat. So that

19:47

might be in a tear. Another

19:51

thing might be manage upset

19:51

clients well, so that's a soft

19:56

skill. Something knowledge based

19:56

might be taken his test on

20:00

surgical instruments. So we have

20:00

tests, and we have logs where

20:04

they log their skills. And then

20:04

we have the soft skills that are

20:09

things that they can work on. So

20:09

it's all motivated by then they

20:13

bring it to me and say, Hey, I'm

20:13

ready for a tear evaluation. I

20:16

think that I've completed

20:16

everything for tier three, Can I

20:19

request this tier meeting? And

20:19

then I go through and see if, if

20:24

they did all those things. And

20:24

if they did all those things,

20:27

then they automatically get tier

20:27

three pay now, and their tier

20:30

three technician or receptionist

20:30

or pet resort attendant, or

20:33

whatever that is,

20:35

Wow, that's

20:35

amazing. So for the soft skills

20:39

is someone else marking off that

20:39

they've seen them handle a

20:43

client? Well, or it's an honor

20:43

system, like, I felt like, I had

20:48

these three negative client

20:48

interactions, and I really

20:50

handled myself well.

20:52

Oh, it's

20:52

definitely monitored by everyone

20:55

in the clinic. So what we do is,

20:55

so let's say some and I say me,

20:59

because it used to be me, but

20:59

now it's my manager. But

21:02

somebody comes to me and says,

21:02

they actually don't come to me,

21:05

they have to email. I'm ready

21:05

for my tier three evaluation.

21:08

Great. So then when they email

21:08

that, they put all their tests

21:12

and logs in my box, I pulled

21:12

them out, I'll look through

21:14

those. And yes, I'll spot check.

21:14

Yeah, you did do these things.

21:18

These are actual patients that

21:18

came in, I've never had somebody

21:20

falsify anything on them ever.

21:20

Then I send out the tear

21:25

requirements, the list of

21:25

hartshill scuff soft skills and

21:28

knowledge to a lot of people in

21:28

the clinic via email. And I say,

21:32

Mary is requesting a tier three

21:32

advancement. Can you please get

21:36

back to me? You know who your

21:36

observations, so I send it to

21:40

every doctor, I send it to key

21:40

other people in the clinic that

21:43

might be receptionist that might

21:43

be text, whoever, we just decide

21:47

who works around them the most,

21:47

that should evaluate them. And

21:50

it could be somebody who's a

21:50

tear below them. It doesn't

21:54

matter. And everyone's

21:54

comfortable with this. Like it's

21:56

not a secret

21:57

pool, because it's like the part of the culture of your practice, right?

21:59

Yeah, we're used to it. Yeah,

22:02

yeah. Nobody's

22:02

ever trying to undermine anyone.

22:04

And that's one of the things

22:04

with the tiers that is so great,

22:08

is it really encourages

22:08

cooperation and mentorship,

22:12

you'll hear people say, Hey,

22:12

guys, I'm so close to my tier,

22:15

but I need to intubate a pig.

22:15

And you'll say that during our

22:19

morning huddle, and then later

22:19

in the day, you'll hear the tech

22:21

go, Hey, go get someone so

22:21

reliever out of that room, I

22:24

gotta pick to innovate. They're

22:24

helping each other get through

22:27

their tears, there's no negative

22:27

to them to help each other

22:30

through, right, because everyone

22:30

can get there. Yeah, yeah. So

22:34

they really are helping each

22:34

other. So everyone wants people

22:37

to advance to tears, but they

22:37

also, they want to be honest. So

22:40

then we meet them. And we say,

22:40

okay, read reviews are tier

22:43

stuff, these are the three areas

22:43

that I think we're still going

22:46

to help you with. And we want

22:46

you to get through, but we don't

22:49

think you're where you need to

22:49

be for tier three right now. So

22:51

let's talk about how we're going

22:51

to get you there. And whatever

22:54

that is, we're going to support

22:54

you and get you there. It's not

22:57

about Nope, you didn't make it,

22:57

Try Again, our goal is to help

23:02

you as the whatever position you

23:02

are, move through those tears

23:07

and learn and grow. But there's

23:07

so much put on to the actual

23:10

team member to do it themselves.

23:10

So I have to I have techs in my

23:14

practice, that are tier one.

23:14

Well, we have five tiers for

23:19

technicians. So I have texts

23:19

that are tier two who've been

23:23

there for years, and they're

23:23

totally happy being there. And

23:25

they're not going to advance to

23:25

tier three. And they're fine

23:28

with it. And I'm fine with it. I

23:28

don't need everyone to be a tier

23:32

five tech. I love having a

23:32

smattering of all of them. But

23:35

there's not this hay, nobody

23:35

ever gives me a raise, I deserve

23:39

a raise because they know

23:39

exactly how to earn more money

23:42

in our practice. They know how

23:42

they can do that. And even

23:45

you'll hear I had a technician

23:45

say, we're starting to save for

23:49

a house. So I'm going to work on

23:49

my next year. That's the coolest

23:52

thing ever, because I'm not the

23:52

bad guy. That's enough. They

23:56

know how they can make more.

23:57

Yes, I love

23:57

that. I love that. And so all of

24:02

its self driven except the first

24:02

one. So to get out of zero, you

24:07

have to do that within the first

24:07

90 days. And so then if that

24:10

doesn't happen, are they no

24:10

longer working there,

24:13

they're usually not going to be a good fit if they can't get through

24:14

it. Because Tier one is

24:17

essentially all of your

24:17

orientation. Your Training, we

24:22

call it establishment in our

24:22

clinic. But so your orientation

24:26

packet has every single thing in

24:26

it that's in tier one, they're

24:30

identical. So if you're not

24:30

getting through, essentially

24:33

that means you didn't get

24:33

through orientation 90 days. And

24:36

we do orientation. Well now we

24:36

didn't use to but we do it well

24:40

enough now that if you're not

24:40

getting through it, it's

24:43

probably not going to be a great

24:43

fit for our practice or our

24:47

system. If you can't get through

24:47

that part. You're not going to

24:50

get through the other tears and you're going to be frustrated with yourself. So we never are

24:52

like up it's 90 days. Peace out

24:57

good have a year we're talking

24:57

about personal law. During that

25:00

orientation process like, whoa,

25:00

we need to get you up to speed

25:04

in this area. This is an area,

25:04

you know, and we'll bring in,

25:08

we'll say, Okay, we're gonna put

25:08

you with this person for a few

25:11

days, that wasn't originally the

25:11

planet during your

25:14

establishment, but we're gonna put you with this person for a few days, because we really need

25:15

you to understand whatever

25:19

charging for dentals, equine

25:19

dental or something and get them

25:24

through it. So we're trying to

25:24

get them through those 90 days,

25:27

we're helping them. But yeah, if

25:27

they're not getting to that tier

25:30

one at 90 days, if we did our

25:30

job, then they're probably not

25:36

going to be a great fit for us.

25:36

Now, there's times that we

25:39

haven't done our job. Well, we

25:39

have not done the orientation.

25:41

Well, the person that was orient

25:41

was sick, we threw him into

25:44

rooms where they should have

25:44

been, that's not fair to say,

25:48

Hey, we've thrown in the room so

25:48

much that we never really got

25:51

over into surgery in these 90

25:51

days. Of course, we're going to,

25:54

that's all of us. Yeah, sure.

25:54

But if we do everything right,

25:57

you should be established pretty

25:57

well, in 90 days.

25:59

Yeah, I asked

25:59

specifically about that. Because

26:02

I do feel like the hires I've

26:02

made. I did kind of know, in

26:07

that 90 day period, and if there

26:07

was something more structured in

26:12

my onboarding or contract or

26:12

whatever it was, I think it

26:16

would have been an easier

26:16

decision at that three month

26:20

mark to say like, you know what,

26:20

this really isn't a good fit.

26:24

You know, I didn't really have a reason because it wasn't something that they weren't

26:26

doing because I wasn't tracking

26:29

it. Well.

26:30

Yeah. And that's a help, right? That's a huge help for us. Because

26:32

dragging orientation on for a

26:35

long time. There's not a moment

26:35

where you say, Okay, this is the

26:40

day it's kind of like laminitis,

26:40

right? This is the worst disease

26:44

ever, because there's not this

26:44

day that you're like, Okay, this

26:46

is the day that we stopped

26:46

treating. Alright, yeah, there's

26:49

not this like moment. Yeah,

26:49

that's why I hate laminitis so

26:53

much, because you just don't

26:53

have that moment that day. And I

26:58

think that's kind of I mean,

26:58

obviously, that's a morbid

27:02

analogy. But we're talking

27:02

reverse veterinarians, right.

27:04

Yeah. So it's the same thing

27:04

having this like, at 90 days, if

27:09

you can't, it's easy to say,

27:09

Hey, you didn't get to this. And

27:12

it prevents us from doing what

27:12

we used to do was literally up

27:15

people in training for a year.

27:15

And in equine medicine, that's a

27:19

nightmare, because they're

27:19

essentially not bringing in

27:22

their own income. If they're in

27:22

the truck training with another

27:24

technician. They're a complete

27:24

loss in terms of their payroll.

27:30

So and we've spent nine months

27:30

training somebody once and I are

27:34

just like, what, we've lost

27:34

control of this, like, I, I've

27:38

paid a lot of money, I

27:38

calculated it, and it's like,

27:41

Oh, that's really expensive.

27:41

Yeah. And that turned out, we

27:44

just changed how we trained that

27:44

person. And it worked out. And

27:46

had we done that a day 60

27:46

Instead of nine months, we would

27:50

have done well. And that person

27:50

did great. ended up doing well.

27:56

Got it. Okay.

27:56

So I mean, we are talking about

27:59

this from a business sense,

27:59

right? Like we're both practice

28:03

owners and, you know, the

28:03

ongoing costs of either

28:06

replacing people or having

28:06

technicians train for an entire

28:11

year and the cost of that. It's

28:11

sort of a no brainer to me, I

28:14

hope people understand that this

28:14

idea of like, hiring well, and

28:18

then paying people well, to keep

28:18

them there and happy makes

28:21

sense. I'm curious to hear your

28:21

insight. On the flip side of

28:26

that, like from a wellbeing

28:26

perspective for your entire

28:29

team. What have you seen this

28:29

change, or these changes that

28:34

you've gradually made? What have

28:34

you seen the effects of in your

28:38

team's well being

28:40

so selfishly,

28:40

all of the anxiety and stress

28:44

that I had with what to hire,

28:44

what wage to hire for when to

28:48

give raises, how performance

28:48

evaluations translate into pay

28:54

raises, all that is gone, it

28:54

does not exist in our practice.

28:59

So I think that's huge. From a

28:59

management standpoint, for my

29:04

well being. It's fantastic,

29:04

right? Everyone knows their

29:08

path. They everyone knows where

29:08

they can go and grow. In our

29:12

practice. They also know the

29:12

ceiling like this, is it, like I

29:16

can't do more than this. And

29:16

they know that from day one. So

29:20

I think that's fair too, because

29:20

that's a reality. If we're, you

29:24

know, only a certain percentage

29:24

of our gross income goes to non

29:27

Doctor payroll, we have to stay

29:27

within some guidelines. And I

29:31

will, I'll say obviously, I

29:31

maybe not, it's not so obvious.

29:35

We have posted in our labs to

29:35

every position in our clinic and

29:39

what the tier pay is for it. So

29:39

tier one pays that's tier two

29:43

pays that's three for small

29:43

animal tech, let's say those

29:47

numbers change as the world

29:47

changes, right. So so we will go

29:53

through sometimes an increase

29:53

all of them by 50 cents, so

29:55

people who sit at Tier Two are

29:55

getting raises without me Moving

30:00

to the next year because there's

30:00

cost of living cost of living?

30:03

Yes, sure, if we're doing well,

30:03

our practice knows that what

30:08

percentage of our compensation

30:08

goes to non Doctor payroll, and

30:12

we talked about it at our

30:12

meeting. So I'll say, you know,

30:15

right now we're got a lot of

30:15

people in training, we're at

30:17

25%, we really need to stay

30:17

under 21%. So let's get these

30:21

people trained. But I'll also

30:21

come in and say, Hey, guys,

30:23

everyone's trained, everyone's

30:23

doing their thing, our

30:26

compensation is down now at 19%.

30:26

So we're going to be able to

30:30

give a race across the board to

30:30

all the tears, they know where

30:34

that came from, it didn't just

30:34

show up one day, they know

30:36

that's because they increase

30:36

gross within the practice. So

30:40

it's, you know, it's based on

30:40

that it's based on law, we have

30:43

people that come in just over

30:43

minimum wage to work in our pet

30:46

resort high school students. And

30:46

so as a minimum, Arizona had

30:50

some pretty dramatic minimum

30:50

wage increases a couple of years

30:54

ago, that very dramatic, like

30:54

multiple dollars from, I think

30:59

it went from eight to 12

30:59

overnight, or something it was,

31:01

it was pretty insane. So,

31:01

obviously, we had to take that

31:04

into account. And that did

31:04

affect everything above it, too.

31:08

So that part's a little

31:08

complicated. But going back to

31:11

the culture of our practice, how

31:11

it feels in our practice, I feel

31:13

like everyone's helping everybody, there's not competition, for you know, who

31:15

makes more, who doesn't make

31:19

more, who gets the raises, who

31:19

doesn't get the raises, I think

31:23

it's a good thing, like

31:23

literally rolling it out, it was

31:27

hard. That is that could be a

31:27

whole hour on how to do that

31:31

really well. Because we made all

31:31

of our employees start at Tier

31:35

zero not pay wise, but skill

31:35

wise, and that there's things

31:40

that I would have done a little

31:40

better now that I'm better at

31:43

change management. But we had a

31:43

rough year, and we did lose some

31:47

people. And I think you'll, the

31:47

people we lost weren't going to

31:50

fit in the system. And some of

31:50

them are great people. But if

31:53

you're not self motivated to

31:53

move up, you either have to be

31:56

content with living in tier two,

31:56

and, or not work with their

32:02

network with us.

32:05

Yeah, the

32:05

thing that strikes me about it

32:07

is the autonomy that it gives to

32:07

people a bit, right? Because

32:10

it's self directed. It's not

32:10

like someone in leadership is

32:14

like, hey, you've been at Tier

32:14

Two for two years now, like, are

32:17

you thinking, you know, so

32:17

that's so important in burnout

32:21

prevention is to have as much

32:21

autonomy as possible within your

32:25

role. And I think that's such an

32:25

interesting aspect of this, that

32:29

I hadn't even really considered

32:29

until you dove deeper into how

32:34

it works. I think that's

32:34

amazing. So yeah, I have to

32:36

imagine that the culture is much

32:36

more positive, especially if the

32:42

right people are there. And

32:42

they're not leaving that just

32:46

for morale.

32:47

And we do a

32:47

satisfaction survey every year

32:49

to our whole team. It's like 27

32:49

pages long. And that's crazy.

32:54

It's for our strategic planning,

32:54

we do. And we get input from

32:58

them more frequently than that,

32:58

obviously, that's just a big

33:01

part of our culture. But on the

33:01

strategic planning survey,

33:04

there's a question that says how

33:04

would you like to be recognized?

33:07

And it says public praise,

33:07

private praise. It's kind of the

33:11

love languages. But public

33:11

praise private praise,

33:15

advancement responsibilities,

33:15

gifts, I don't remember all of

33:20

them. But advancement

33:20

responsibilities is always the

33:23

top thing they pick. They also

33:23

like public and private praise.

33:27

But advancement responsibilities

33:27

is what they pick. So to be able

33:31

to reward them for those who

33:31

have those acknowledged, I think

33:34

is a really good mentally for

33:34

them to we want to reward,

33:39

advancement growth. We want to

33:39

reward performance, we want to

33:43

reward the self motivation

33:43

that's there. And they're not

33:47

just looking at the end goal.

33:47

They're excited when they get

33:50

parts of it like they'll

33:50

announce it in our morning

33:52

huddle. Like you guys I finally

33:52

got that. Whenever I finally

33:56

like Oh, my IV cat catheters are

33:56

my luck. Thank you all so much

34:00

for helping me get there. That's

34:00

real and happens in the

34:04

mornings, like people are

34:04

talking about it. We've got on

34:06

our we've got a chalkboard. And

34:06

on it, it says tears and people

34:10

can write if they're down to

34:10

like one or two hard skills that

34:14

they need. They can write their

34:14

name and that skill on that

34:17

board. And it will be announced

34:17

in our morning huddle. Hey,

34:20

don't forget, I know is still

34:20

trying to get whatever done. So

34:27

I think it's just everyone feels

34:27

better about helping each other.

34:31

And they feel better about

34:31

accomplishing things on their

34:33

own. We're not telling them what

34:33

to do.

34:37

Yeah, I love

34:37

it. Are you guys huddling every

34:39

morning before the day starts?

34:41

Yeah, we had

34:41

every day our phones go live at

34:45

seven I mean at eight o'clock

34:45

and we have a morning huddle at

34:47

745. Very quick, quick is just

34:47

an app. We work four day

34:53

workweeks everyone, but we're

34:53

open six days a week. So we

34:57

never have the same team on

34:57

that. For there's not a single

35:01

day that like this is the

35:01

Thursday team. Because one of

35:05

the other things that about our

35:05

job that is good is flexibility.

35:08

Some people hate it, they don't

35:08

work for us. If you want to set

35:11

schedule, this is a horrible

35:11

place to work, if you like to

35:15

get whatever day off that you

35:15

want, whenever you want it off

35:18

is a great place to work.

35:18

Because you have to work for the

35:21

sick days. And it's variable,

35:21

it's really hard to schedule. My

35:24

poor manager has to do that. But

35:24

it's good for everybody. And

35:29

that's why they want to be there. So anyway, it's a different team. Every morning,

35:30

when we just talked about which

35:33

doctors are on which technicians

35:33

are with each doctor where our

35:37

receptionists are, we have a

35:37

front desk, but we also have an

35:40

incoming call center that's not

35:40

at the desk. So who's where in

35:44

case we need to get a hold of

35:44

somebody. If we have any

35:47

openings, if we have any clients

35:47

that we need to know anything

35:50

about. It's five minutes, it's

35:50

really quick. And then we do

35:53

say, we go over this kind of

35:53

getting off topic, but we on

35:57

that chalkboard, because I am

35:57

kind of passionate about

36:00

meetings not being anything that

36:00

can be an email or an

36:03

announcement. We have a

36:03

chalkboard of announcements, and

36:05

we anything that needs to be

36:05

announced anyone can write

36:08

anything on it. And that it's

36:08

announced for one week and then

36:11

erased. So every one will hear

36:11

it multiple times. So like, Hey,

36:16

we got a new otoscope cover, you

36:16

guys need to put it on the

36:19

otoscope. Like that might be an

36:19

announcement that's on there.

36:22

And that way, we don't have to

36:22

talk about that at a meeting or

36:25

something, you know, waste

36:25

everyone's time there. So that's

36:28

on there. We talked about the

36:28

tears at the meeting. And then

36:31

then we asked how everybody's

36:31

doing and if anyone needs

36:33

anything for the day. And that's

36:33

something we brought up

36:37

recently. And it's really neat.

36:37

Somebody you know, last week

36:41

said, you know, I'm just gonna

36:41

be honest, like it was up all

36:43

night, I'm exhausted. And I'm

36:43

gonna push through, but just

36:47

know that's kind of where I am

36:47

today. It's a great thing to

36:50

just kind of know where everyone is. Yeah.

36:52

Love that.

36:52

Love that. Awesome. Well, there

36:55

was so much great advice here.

36:55

Thank you so much for sharing. I

36:58

know you have so much other

36:58

information to share with people

37:02

with your courses and other

37:02

things you're doing online. So

37:05

tell people were to find out

37:05

more about you. Yeah, so

37:08

what I do is I

37:08

selfishly did everything for

37:11

myself to make my practice

37:11

better. And then I thought, I

37:14

wish somebody had told me a lot

37:14

of these things ahead of time, I

37:17

can tell other people about

37:17

them. And so at conferences, I

37:19

ended up talking to people and

37:19

telling them when I thought I

37:22

can do this in a much more

37:22

scalable way. So I do online

37:26

courses for practice owners,

37:26

their master classes or

37:29

workshops, I actually have a

37:29

workshop on how to set up tears

37:32

in your practice. I think it's

37:32

like a six hour workshop and

37:36

walks you through. But

37:36

everything's on our website,

37:39

veterinary dash m be a.com.

37:44

Great. I'll make sure to link that in the show notes. You're also on

37:45

Instagram at veterinary NBA,

37:49

which I highly suggest everyone

37:49

follow. Last question, what is

37:54

one small thing that brought you

37:54

joy this past week?

37:58

Both my two my

37:58

grandbabies had their first

38:00

birthday this week. And their

38:00

birthday party was at my house

38:03

is the greatest. Yeah, it was

38:03

the greatest, so special. That's

38:07

awesome. So that brought me joy.

38:07

And I'm studying my daughter's

38:10

in veterinary school. And she's

38:10

studying for her board. So we

38:13

sat together and studied tendons

38:13

and ligaments and the horse legs

38:18

really brought me joy.

38:20

That's awesome. Great. That's so exciting. Well, thanks again for

38:22

your time. I really appreciate

38:24

you being here.

38:25

Thank you so much. It was so fun.

38:28

Thank you so much for tuning in to the whole veterinarian podcast. I so

38:30

appreciate the time that you

38:33

spend with me to connect. Please

38:33

find me on Instagram at the

38:37

whole veterinarian, or check out

38:37

the website at the whole

38:40

veterinarian.com and you can

38:40

sign up for our monthly

38:43

newsletter as well. Thanks again

38:43

and I'll talk to you soon