0:07

Do you feel

0:07

like it's possible to find joy

0:10

and positive change within

0:10

veterinary medicine? Are you

0:13

looking for a community that's

0:13

striving for fulfillment rather

0:17

than perfection? Hey there, I'm

0:17

Dr. Stacey Cordivano. I want

0:22

veterinarians to learn to be

0:22

happier, healthier, wealthier,

0:26

and more grateful for the lives

0:26

that we've created. On this

0:29

podcast I will speak with

0:29

outside of the box thinkers to

0:32

hear new ideas on ways to

0:32

improve our day to day lives.

0:36

Welcome to the whole

0:36

veterinarian.

0:49

Today, I'm so excited to

0:49

introduce to you Dr. Emily

0:53

Singler. Emily is a

0:53

veterinarian, a mom of four a

0:57

lover of all things llama and

0:57

alpaca and a voracious consumer

1:00

of chocolate. She's been a mom

1:00

for practically as long as she's

1:04

been a vet and really

1:04

understands how to live the

1:08

working mom life. She now works

1:08

as a veterinary writer,

1:11

consultant and mentor alongside

1:11

wrangling teenagers and a

1:15

toddler. She recently authored

1:15

her first book called pregnancy

1:19

and postpartum considerations

1:19

for the veterinary team, which

1:22

will be available in November of

1:22

this year 2023. So stay tuned

1:27

for our conversation, and

1:27

there'll be links in the

1:30

shownotes on where to preorder

1:30

that or get more information

1:33

about Emily.

1:35

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1:38

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1:53

Hi, Emily,

1:53

thanks so much for being here

1:55

with me today. How are you doing?

1:57

Hi, thank you so

1:57

much for having me. I'm doing

2:00

great. Very excited to talk to

2:00

you about this.

2:02

Yeah, me too.

2:02

I cannot wait for everyone to

2:06

learn more about this book,

2:06

because I think it's so

2:09

important. So first, tell

2:09

everyone why you're here and

2:13

what your book is called.

2:15

Okay, it's got a

2:15

nice long title. It's pregnancy

2:18

and postpartum considerations

2:18

for the veterinary team. I

2:22

originally thought I would make

2:22

it this like cute, catchy title,

2:26

but there was no way to do it

2:26

and be clear about what it is.

2:30

And that's, that's really what

2:30

it is. So yeah, I'm a mom of

2:33

four kids. And when I was going

2:33

through my pregnancies, I was

2:38

working in small animal

2:38

practice. During all of them. I

2:41

first got pregnant when I was

2:41

about three months out about

2:43

school. And just like everybody

2:43

else had no idea what I was

2:48

doing. No idea what I was

2:48

supposed to do, and no idea how

2:52

to do both things. You know how

2:52

to be that and be pregnant and

2:56

be a mom and make sure I was

2:56

doing everything the right way.

3:00

So I really I wanted like a

3:00

checklist or a book or a guide

3:04

or something. And so I was

3:04

always looking for that and

3:08

didn't really exist. There are a

3:08

bunch of blog articles and

3:13

little research papers that will

3:13

cover one topic, but there

3:17

wasn't really something that was

3:17

just kind of like easy to digest

3:20

that told me what the big risks

3:20

were. And my health care

3:25

providers didn't really seem to

3:25

know either. I had an accidental

3:29

exposure when I was unground,

3:29

standing right next to the X ray

3:33

table, because my technician

3:33

press the pedal down before I

3:36

moved. And so I didn't know

3:36

really what that would mean for

3:39

me. So after a while of just

3:39

looking for resources and not

3:44

finding them, I just decided I

3:44

would try to create it.

3:47

Yeah, that's amazing. Because even if there are small articles here and

3:49

there, like who really has time

3:52

to go digging for all that when

3:52

you're pregnant or having a

3:55

newborn. So yeah, that's

3:55

amazing. And so I'm super

3:58

excited to spread the word about

3:58

the book. So I know that it

4:03

wasn't just you that wrote the

4:03

book, because actually we

4:06

collaborated a little bit. I'm

4:06

curious if you could talk a

4:09

little bit about your decision

4:09

to involve other people and what

4:13

that kind of looks like.

4:14

Yeah, so when I

4:14

was initially writing the book,

4:17

I was working with a freelance

4:17

editor who I hired just to kind

4:22

of help me get the book in the

4:22

best shape possible before I

4:25

presented it to a publisher. And

4:25

she and I were going back and

4:29

forth about you know, different

4:29

ways that I could make it a more

4:33

valuable resource to readers.

4:33

And I decided I already knew I

4:38

wanted to include some of my

4:38

stories. So at the beginning of

4:41

every chapter, there's like a

4:41

short paragraph about, you know,

4:44

something that I've experienced,

4:44

related to the topic because

4:48

there's there 12 chapters in the

4:48

book. Then I decided, you know,

4:53

no one wants to hear just about

4:53

me. There's so many stories and

4:56

there's so many things that I

4:56

haven't experienced that I

4:59

wanted to get a bunch of other

4:59

voices in there. So I reached

5:04

out to some people specifically

5:04

like you, I wanted to hear other

5:09

people's stories. And then I

5:09

also just kind of put out a

5:12

request on the DVM moms Facebook

5:12

group and got some eager

5:16

volunteers there. So I think all

5:16

in all, I have about 25, I call

5:21

them practice profiles. In

5:21

different chapters of the book,

5:25

a lot of people have shared

5:25

their stories about pumping and

5:29

going back to work and finding

5:29

childcare. But they also have

5:32

stories about how people told

5:32

their employer that they were

5:36

pregnant, or one of them was a

5:36

vet student at the time. So how

5:40

she went through that process

5:40

with her vet school

5:43

administration, and what that

5:43

look like, most of them are

5:46

really happy stories. Some of

5:46

them are stories about just how

5:50

hard things were, particularly

5:50

with employers who were not

5:54

supportive and empathetic when

5:54

they were told that their

5:57

employee was pregnant. Most of

5:57

them are written by

6:00

veterinarians, a couple are

6:00

written by that Tech's and the

6:04

experience is just I think, adds

6:04

so much richness to the book,

6:08

because I asked everyone to

6:08

include you know, what their

6:10

experience was, but also, you

6:10

know, what do you think somebody

6:14

else would want to know? And

6:14

what did you learn from it? What

6:17

do you think, would have made

6:17

your experience better? And what

6:20

would you want to tell somebody

6:20

else if they were going through,

6:24

you know, the same experience,

6:24

whether it's infertility, or

6:28

exposure to infectious disease,

6:28

or deciding whether to take

6:32

radiographs during pregnancy,

6:32

kind of try to cover the whole

6:36

gamut. So I think it adds a lot.

6:36

You're getting the information,

6:39

but you're also getting personal

6:39

experiences from people who have

6:43

been there, I really enjoyed

6:43

your stories about pumping. And

6:49

in mobile practice,

6:50

yeah, it took

6:50

me back to a little PTSD going

6:52

through that to be honest

6:54

pumping is the

6:54

worst, I hated it, too. But I

6:57

never had to do what you had to

6:57

do so well, I

7:00

think it's a

7:00

great idea. Because I mean, I

7:02

think we all know, storytelling

7:02

goes a really long way. And so

7:05

it's kind of cool to have that

7:05

intermixed with some practical,

7:10

you know how tos, I think that

7:10

it's a great idea. So speaking

7:14

of pumping, I want to dig in to

7:14

your last chapter called

7:18

returning to work, because I

7:18

know it's a big one. And it

7:21

covers a lot of stuff. And we've

7:21

talked previously about how hard

7:25

the transition is. So I'd love

7:25

to kind of dig into the

7:29

different things you talk about

7:29

in that chapter to give

7:31

listeners kind of a preview of

7:31

what they might get in the book.

7:34

Yeah, kind of

7:34

start out talking about just

7:37

emotionally and physically, what

7:37

it can be like to think about

7:42

going back to work. And I

7:42

particularly since I've heard so

7:46

many other stories and talk with

7:46

other people, I really try to be

7:50

cognizant that, you know, my

7:50

experience was kind of one of

7:54

dread in terms of going back to

7:54

work, you know, leaving my baby,

7:58

but for some people, it can be

7:58

the exact opposite, you know,

8:01

just from a mental health

8:01

perspective, they feel like they

8:04

need to get back to some sense

8:04

of normalcy, some sense of

8:08

routine, talking to adults,

8:08

again, just kind of like using a

8:11

different part of their brain,

8:11

getting on more of a schedule.

8:14

But it can also be a real

8:14

challenge for some people who

8:17

just feel very unready to step

8:17

away from their child. So we

8:22

kind of talked about the

8:22

emotional needs and the need for

8:26

a lot of support for individuals

8:26

who are going back into the

8:29

workplace. And then we talk

8:29

about some of the physical

8:32

challenges, some people are

8:32

going back to work really early

8:35

after they've had their baby.

8:35

And so they're still technically

8:37

in a place of physical healing.

8:37

I think there was a statistic,

8:42

that people who went back to

8:42

work before six weeks, had a

8:47

much greater incidence of

8:47

certain health problems and

8:50

mental health problems compared

8:50

to people who went back waiting,

8:53

I think it was like 14 or 15

8:53

weeks. But of course, we don't

8:57

all have that luxury of taking

8:57

that much time. So whatever it

9:02

ends up looking like for, for an

9:02

individual person, there's no

9:06

judgement, it's just about

9:06

things to keep in mind so that

9:09

you can take better care of

9:09

yourself as you make that

9:12

transition back to work.

9:14

Yeah, certainly, you're sort of in survival mode. And yes, taking

9:15

care of yourself is not really

9:20

high on the priority list

9:20

necessarily. So I think it's a

9:23

really good thing to remind

9:23

people about for sure.

9:27

Well, yeah, I mean, it's like you get out of the hospital with or, you know,

9:29

however you've given birth,

9:31

like, Okay, take care of this

9:31

infant who needs you 24 hours a

9:35

day, and sometimes there's

9:35

nothing you can do to make them

9:38

happy and take care of yourself.

9:38

And I remember when I had my

9:42

third baby, like the day I came

9:42

home from the hospital, my son

9:46

who had been dubbed baby was

9:46

eight years old. I thought,

9:49

Okay, I'm gonna lie down because someone else is holding the baby. He comes into my room and

9:51

he's like, Hey, Mom, you want to

9:53

play basketball with me? I was

9:53

like, No, I can't do that. And

9:58

he was like, I don't Under, why

9:58

can you not go outside and play

10:01

basketball with me, I just I

10:01

don't get that. And I just use

10:04

that as an example of like,

10:04

everybody just kind of expects

10:07

you to go back to doing all the

10:07

things that they expect you to

10:10

do practically as soon as you

10:10

have a baby. And so you go back

10:14

to work. And now suddenly, there

10:14

are all these new expectations

10:17

that are put on, you just really

10:17

need to be aware that we don't

10:21

have to be everything to

10:21

everybody, particularly when

10:24

you're navigating that transition.

10:26

Yeah, I think that's also when you start learning that if you didn't have

10:28

boundaries before, they're gonna

10:31

become pretty necessary.

10:31

Everyone's gonna survive. Yeah,

10:36

yes. And then

10:36

kind of as we go through the

10:38

chapter, we talk a lot about

10:38

preparing, you know, physically,

10:42

what do you want to bring with

10:42

you, I mean, whether you're

10:44

pumping or not, but particularly

10:44

if you're pumping all the

10:47

supplies and everything that

10:47

you'll need to have with you in

10:51

the workplace. I want to say

10:51

when I talked to you about that,

10:53

you said you had something like

10:53

eight different sets of like,

10:56

pumping parts or something.

10:58

I don't know if it was a but it was definitely for at least Yeah,

11:00

yeah. Okay. And I still got

11:06

caught a couple of times without

11:06

having the right parts in the

11:09

truck. So apparently, for it

11:09

wasn't a mess,

11:11

I can remember a

11:11

time or a time when I forgot to

11:15

bring my pumping stuff. And I

11:15

did not have time to leave. And

11:18

I actually called a friend and

11:18

they came to my workplace,

11:21

picked up my key drove to my

11:21

house, picked up my pumping

11:24

stuff and brought it back to me.

11:24

I was like, if I didn't

11:28

absolutely need this, I would

11:28

never ask you to do this. I'm

11:31

mortified that I'm asking you to

11:31

do so much work. But thank you.

11:34

But yeah, all the extra supplies

11:34

that you suddenly need to bring

11:37

to work, both in terms of the

11:37

pump and all the pumping parts

11:40

and making sure you stay

11:40

hydrated and keep your nutrition

11:44

up so that you can produce

11:44

enough milk having pictures of

11:47

the baby to look at, because

11:47

that's been shown to help

11:51

improve milk letdown and improve

11:51

your production. And then we

11:55

talked about things like just

11:55

getting new clothes so that you

11:58

feel comfortable, and you look

11:58

good, because your body is

12:02

probably not going to be exactly

12:02

the same as it was beforehand.

12:05

So just doing whatever you need

12:05

to do from a physical and a

12:09

mental health perspective to

12:09

feel good about going back into

12:12

the workplace and realize that

12:12

you're not the same person that

12:15

you were before you had a baby.

12:15

kind of embrace the new version

12:20

of yourself.

12:21

How long did

12:21

it take you to figure out that

12:23

you weren't gonna be the exact

12:23

same person going back? Because

12:26

I think it took me a long time.

12:26

I'm just thinking like, this

12:30

resource is great. Yeah, this

12:30

resource is great, because that

12:36

is stuff that's important to

12:36

consider.

12:38

No one really

12:38

talks about what it's really

12:41

like, there's just all these

12:41

kind of unrealistic expectations

12:44

of being exactly what you were

12:44

before, but then doing all this

12:48

all this new stuff, too. So I

12:48

don't know, I think it took me

12:51

probably years to figure out

12:51

that it was okay, that things

12:55

had changed with me, and that I

12:55

didn't have to meet anybody

12:57

else's expectations.

13:00

I think the

13:00

other interesting transition is

13:02

like not even just physically,

13:02

but emotionally. It's such a big

13:06

change, right? Your priorities

13:06

shift. And at least for me, it

13:10

was my life was defined by being

13:10

an equine vet. Hi, my name is

13:13

Stacy. I'm a horse vet, like

13:13

that's who I am. And then yeah,

13:17

and then navigating that shift

13:17

of like, okay, some of this

13:20

stuff isn't quite as important

13:20

as it was before. I think that

13:24

transition probably took me even

13:24

longer than just the physical

13:28

changes.

13:29

I think, for me, the biggest thing was just emotionally because I always do

13:31

I want to have kids, but no one

13:35

can really understand exactly

13:35

what that feels like, or exactly

13:37

how much that changes your life

13:37

until it happens to you. And

13:42

when my daughter was born, I did

13:42

not want to go back to work. I

13:46

was like, That's it, I'm done

13:46

being that I just, I'm never

13:48

going back to work again.

13:48

Because how can I leave her

13:51

like, I just don't want to leave

13:51

her. I don't want anybody else

13:53

to take care of or I don't want

13:53

anybody else to hold her. I just

13:56

want to be with her all the

13:56

time. And I would, I would tell

13:59

everybody that I don't want to I

13:59

don't want to go back to her.

14:03

And I remember my husband at the

14:03

time was like, well, you, you

14:05

have to like, you have to go

14:05

back to work. And so just it

14:10

took a long time for me to kind

14:10

of feel like okay, this is just

14:13

what I do. And I'm still a good

14:13

mom, and she still knows that I

14:16

love her. And I went through

14:16

that to some degree with every

14:21

baby that I had. Have. Did they

14:21

know that? I love them? Are they

14:25

okay? Did they feel like I

14:25

abandoned them? And this was

14:28

just me. But I would say these

14:28

things to myself, like how can I

14:30

live with myself and I'm handing

14:30

my baby over to someone who's

14:33

not a part of our family. And it

14:33

would take me months to really

14:38

kind of get to a point where

14:38

those voices in my head would

14:42

quiet down and stop beating me

14:42

up where I could believe that

14:45

everything was okay. And that my

14:45

baby was doing well. It's hard.

14:49

I mean, I know it's not that

14:49

hard for everybody. But no Yeah,

14:52

I have a lot of empathy for you because some people I didn't feel that way. I

14:54

think I was lucky I was handing

14:58

my kids over to Family for the

14:58

most part to watch them. But I

15:03

did feel like I needed to get

15:03

back to work probably not as

15:06

quickly as I did, especially

15:06

with the first one. But I didn't

15:10

have those voices in my head. I

15:10

think I had some voices in my

15:13

head about the energy level I

15:13

had left at the end of the day,

15:16

like, am I being a good enough

15:16

mom in the afternoon and

15:19

evening? Yeah. But that does add

15:19

a lot to it if you're not kind

15:23

of psyched to go do something

15:23

else again. So yeah,

15:28

yeah, I just felt

15:28

like I was completely out of

15:30

place when I was in the

15:30

workplace, like he didn't belong

15:33

there. And so it took me a

15:33

while. And then eventually, I

15:37

kind of move past that and got

15:37

into the rhythm of things. And

15:40

you see that your child is

15:40

thriving, and they're kind of

15:44

used to the schedule and try to

15:44

just make the most of the time

15:48

that you are home with them. But

15:48

then some people have a very

15:51

different experience, because I

15:51

tried to look at the experiences

15:54

for vets and veterinary

15:54

professionals that live in other

15:57

countries as well. So for

15:57

example, in the UK, where it's

16:01

much more common, and sort of

16:01

culturally expected that you

16:05

take a really long maternity

16:05

leave. I mean, they don't get

16:08

full pay the whole time, but

16:08

they get some kind of like

16:11

statutory pay for a period of

16:11

time. And their job is protected

16:15

for potentially up to a year.

16:15

And I talked to a horse that

16:20

actually who practices in the

16:20

UK, and she was telling me that

16:24

they're you're often looked down

16:24

upon if you don't take that long

16:28

of a maternity leave, you're

16:28

kind of judged for it. Like, why

16:32

would you go back to work so

16:32

quickly, you know, stay home

16:36

with your baby. And so she felt

16:36

like a lot of pressure to take a

16:41

longer leave, which is the exact

16:41

opposite of here. But anyway,

16:45

when they take that long of the

16:45

leave, then there's a lot more

16:48

anxiety about do I still know

16:48

how to practice veterinary

16:51

medicine, like I'm still gonna

16:51

be good at my job, and might do

16:55

I still have the skills that I

16:55

need. So I actually took a year

17:01

after my second child was born,

17:01

just because of our family

17:05

circumstances at that time. And

17:05

I definitely remember that

17:08

coming into the workplace and

17:08

being like, I don't know how to

17:10

make an estimate anymore. For

17:10

like hospitalizing dog. The

17:14

actual physical skills came back

17:14

pretty quickly. But there was

17:17

definitely some anxiety there of

17:17

like, I don't know if I can

17:20

still do this.

17:22

And they're like three new drugs on the market. I don't know how much

17:23

but for you guys, it seems like

17:30

all these

17:31

technicians, I don't know where did the other ones go? I don't know. So in the

17:32

UK, they have these keeping in

17:36

touch days, kit days, where you

17:36

can get up to 10 days on your

17:41

leave where they'll pay you and

17:41

you can just go back and work a

17:45

day while you're still on leave.

17:45

So that you can keep your skills

17:48

up, keep your hands and stuff,

17:48

stay involved in what's going

17:52

on. And then you can like go

17:52

back on leave and be like, Oh, I

17:54

see you again for the next one.

17:56

Yeah, what a

17:56

great idea. Yeah, even if it

17:59

wasn't a year, right, even just

17:59

to do that, to practice coming

18:03

back in with like, all the stuff

18:03

you're gonna have to bring in

18:06

like, you know, even if you just

18:06

did practice days after a couple

18:10

of months of being off, that

18:10

seems like such a great idea.

18:13

Yeah, I think that could definitely ease some of the anxiety about going back

18:15

in. And one of the things I

18:17

talked about in the book was

18:17

when you come back in, like, if

18:19

you can, like maybe don't start

18:19

on a Monday, like maybe start on

18:22

Thursday, so that you just work

18:22

two days. Maybe the first week

18:26

isn't a full week. But you know,

18:26

the same idea with these kid

18:30

days, if you could just work a

18:30

few kind of isolated days where

18:34

you do it and then maybe you

18:34

have time at home again, with

18:37

the baby are a little more time

18:37

to rest before you're kind of

18:40

back in the swing of things full

18:40

time. I think that's a great

18:44

idea. I think it would be

18:44

awesome for us to do something

18:46

like that.

18:47

Yeah, I also really love the idea of like kind of a graduated re entrance

18:49

back I know a couple of my

18:52

colleagues have done that right,

18:52

start working two days a week

18:55

and then build up from there

18:55

more slowly.

18:58

In other

18:58

industries, like in a lot of

19:00

like corporate and sales jobs.

19:00

That's pretty common to have a

19:04

reentry plan, where you start

19:04

working for fewer hours or you

19:09

start working from home or you

19:09

know, whatever the case may be

19:12

to gradually ease your way back

19:12

into the workplace and being

19:16

away from your child. And some

19:16

of those options like work from

19:19

home aren't as practical in, in

19:19

veterinary medicine, but

19:23

definitely the kind of gradual

19:23

reentry, I think for me, if that

19:27

had been offered offended an

19:27

option, I think I would have

19:30

probably appreciated that would

19:30

have helped me feel like I

19:34

wasn't just going from like zero

19:34

to 60 from one week to the next.

19:39

I'm hoping that those options

19:39

will be offered more more

19:43

commonly in veterinary practice,

19:43

as we talk about it more. So

19:47

kind of

19:47

a side

19:47

question and I don't know if you

19:50

know the answer to this, but

19:50

I've been doing more work in the

19:54

workplace culture space,

19:54

especially in the equine world.

19:57

Do you know how common it is for

19:57

the Don't Aryans to have paid

20:01

maternity leave in the US paid

20:01

parental leave, I should say,

20:05

I don't have

20:05

numbers, but I think it's still

20:09

relatively uncommon.

20:11

Okay, I didn't know if that was different and smaller. I mean, it's certainly

20:13

not common and equine, so I

20:15

didn't know if it was different in small animal.

20:17

Yeah, some of the

20:17

corporations are starting to

20:19

offer it. Like the corporate

20:19

consolidators, I'm seeing that

20:24

anywhere from like four weeks to

20:24

six weeks to eight weeks, a lot

20:28

of them have tenure

20:28

requirements. So you have to

20:30

have worked for this company for

20:30

a certain amount of time, like a

20:35

year before you're eligible for

20:35

that, or you have to be full

20:39

time. And if you're part time,

20:39

you're not eligible kind of

20:42

thing. And I'm seeing more

20:42

maternity leave, and not as much

20:46

true parental leave where it

20:46

would work for, for either

20:50

parent, I would say veterinary

20:50

medicine is still way behind.

20:54

Well, I mean, our country is way

20:54

behind the rest of the world,

20:56

right, and in parental leave.

20:56

And that's definitely something

20:59

that I'm very passionate about.

20:59

And I think we need to talk

21:02

about it a lot more in

21:02

veterinary medicine, because we

21:06

want the people who practice it

21:06

to stick around. But we have to

21:10

be cognizant that they want to

21:10

enjoy their lives, and they want

21:13

to be able to raise families.

21:13

And if we just make it so

21:16

untenable for them to feel like

21:16

they can meet their family's

21:21

needs and stay in veterinary

21:21

medicine, they're going to be

21:23

less likely to do that. So I

21:23

think that it is something that

21:27

needs to change. I know some

21:27

people get paid for their

21:30

maternity leave, but then

21:30

they're on production and

21:33

they're on negative accrual. So

21:33

then they basically, you know,

21:36

they have to kind of make it up,

21:36

which the whole rest of the year

21:39

probably isn't really paid

21:39

maternity leave. So I think it's

21:43

improving, I think, more at

21:43

least corporations are starting

21:47

to consider it. And I have heard

21:47

of some individual practice

21:51

owners offering it but I don't

21:51

think that's something that's

21:53

really ever been surveyed. And

21:53

that is something that I've been

21:57

kind of kicking around in the

21:57

back of my mind is potentially

22:00

trying to find a way to survey

22:00

that so that we can have a

22:03

better sense of who's offering

22:03

what and how we can improve

22:07

that.

22:07

Yeah, because I can imagine like, as a practice owner, I think the

22:09

first question would be like,

22:11

Well, how am I going to justify

22:11

that expense? Yeah, how are we

22:15

going to pay for it? But yeah,

22:15

and that seems like a great

22:18

thing to investigate, because

22:18

surely some people are doing it.

22:21

So it'd be kind of interesting

22:21

to know, how they're working it

22:24

out

22:24

how they're doing

22:24

it? Yeah. And I think there are

22:27

a variety of different ways to

22:27

do it. I'm not well versed in it

22:30

enough right now to say, I know

22:30

exactly what the solution is,

22:34

you know, some of the argument

22:34

is kind of looking at a cost

22:37

benefit analysis, like how much

22:37

would it cost me to pay for some

22:41

kind of maternity leave, even if

22:41

it's not fully paid, maybe a

22:44

certain portion of it is paid.

22:44

And then there's some unpaid or,

22:48

you know, offering short term

22:48

disability to at least cover

22:51

some of it? How much is that

22:51

costing? versus how much does it

22:55

cost me if the employee doesn't

22:55

come back? Sure. Or if I can't

23:00

hire someone, because they're

23:00

looking for this benefit, and

23:04

they don't offer it. So, you

23:04

know, that's part of the

23:08

discussion. But I think we do

23:08

need to see kind of what's out

23:12

there who's offering it and find

23:12

ways to increase that. But then

23:15

the other big part of it is we

23:15

need to offer it for fathers to,

23:20

and they need to feel like they

23:20

can take it because a lot of the

23:23

times they'll have some benefit,

23:23

but there's a lot of social and

23:26

cultural pressure to not

23:26

actually use it. Sure. And then

23:31

the stigma continues for

23:31

mothers, for women, because

23:34

employers will sometimes say,

23:34

well, all I'm gonna hire them,

23:37

and then they're going to have to go on maternity leave, and they're going to have kids and

23:39

then they're going to need off.

23:41

Whereas if we shift that so that

23:41

that's considered to be a

23:45

responsibility and a need for

23:45

men and women, then that takes

23:50

away some of the potential

23:50

discrimination against women as

23:55

the only people who are going to

23:55

potentially have those needs in

24:00

the workplace. And it makes

24:00

everyone feel better about being

24:04

able to ask for those benefits

24:04

and use them.

24:07

Yeah. Do you

24:07

have examples of sort of

24:11

discrimination other than the

24:11

biggie of the wage gap? Do you

24:16

see other instances of that?

24:18

I've heard

24:18

stories about employers saying

24:22

that they didn't want to hire

24:22

women, because they were just

24:24

gonna get pregnant and quit.

24:25

Oh, well, who are they going to hire?

24:31

I mean, I think there are probably a lot more cases where people might think

24:32

that way and never verbalize it,

24:36

never admit to it. And

24:36

hopefully, that is changing. I

24:40

mean, at least out of necessity.

24:40

I mean, this is a very female

24:43

dominated profession. So yeah, I

24:43

mean, I hear stories all the

24:47

time about employers who are

24:47

just not at all open to the

24:52

needs of women, either who are

24:52

pregnant or who are moms

24:56

already, in terms of scheduling

24:56

paid maternity leave that kind

25:01

of thing. But a lot of room for

25:01

improvement there. So the

25:05

motherhood penalty that, you

25:05

know, we hear kind of thrown

25:08

around a lot, it just has to do

25:08

with kind of the finding that

25:12

women when they become mothers

25:12

tend to experience lower wages,

25:19

whereas some men experience kind

25:19

of a boost. But that takes into

25:24

account unpaid maternity leave,

25:24

if a woman has to work fewer

25:28

hours, because she's decided to

25:28

work less so that she can do you

25:32

know, pick up, drop off, be home

25:32

with the kids, you know,

25:35

whatever that ends up being, and

25:35

then any kind of actual wage

25:40

disparity.

25:41

Interesting. I

25:41

haven't really heard the

25:43

motherhood penalty explained

25:43

like in that detail. So that's

25:47

very interesting.

25:49

And depressing.

25:51

Depressing.

25:51

Okay, on a not so depressing

25:55

note, let's talk about for you

25:55

personally, anyway, we'll take a

25:59

step away from the book, what

25:59

are some benefits to motherhood

26:04

for you,

26:05

I talk a lot

26:05

about the stressful parts, and

26:08

probably not enough about the

26:08

benefits. So I'm glad we're

26:11

getting to talk about this. I

26:11

love being a mom, I just love

26:15

it. It's true that when I

26:15

introduce myself, I'll just like

26:19

you off and be like, I'm a

26:19

veterinarian. But I really feel

26:23

like I was put on this earth to

26:23

be a mom. I love it. It brings

26:28

me so much joy. I mean, it

26:28

brings me all the stress and the

26:31

heartache and the anxiety and

26:31

all that stuff, too. But I love

26:34

it. I love being able to share

26:34

my you know what I do in the

26:39

workplace, with my kids. They

26:39

teach me so much they helped me

26:45

to grow, they've helped me, you

26:45

know, become more organized and

26:49

more responsible and all those

26:49

kinds of things. But they just

26:53

fill my life with so much joy.

26:53

Everything you know, every

26:57

holiday, every vacation, every

26:57

event is just so much more fun.

27:02

Not that it isn't also

27:02

stressful, but so much more fun

27:04

when I can like see it through

27:04

their eyes.

27:07

Yeah, definitely more exciting, I think. Yeah.

27:10

So you know,

27:10

being a parent is not for

27:12

everybody. And I would never try

27:12

to convince someone who doesn't

27:16

already want to do that, that

27:16

that's what they should do. But

27:18

it's definitely for me. And I

27:18

love it. I was at this

27:22

veterinary marketing research

27:22

thing several years ago, and

27:25

they had us all around the table

27:25

and say, if you weren't a

27:28

veterinarian, what would you be?

27:28

And everyone was like, Oh, I'd

27:32

be an engineer, or I'd be your

27:32

computer scientist, or I'd be

27:35

this or that. And I was like,

27:35

I'd be a stay at home mom. And

27:38

like the room got very quiet.

27:40

So I'm like, I

27:40

don't they were like, That's not

27:45

what you're supposed to do. But

27:45

really couldn't have a more

27:50

important job than being a stay

27:50

at home. Mom, I don't think

27:52

actually,

27:53

yes. And I don't

27:53

think there's a harder job on

27:56

the face of the earth. And I

27:56

when I said that, I said that

27:58

before I had my current two and

27:58

four year olds, they are very

28:02

intense. And I love them. I love

28:02

them with all my heart. And I

28:06

love snuggling with them and

28:06

kissing them and teaching them

28:08

things and watching their happy

28:08

little faces. But they also like

28:14

drive me to the point of

28:14

insanity on a regular basis. So

28:17

that is kind of the paradox of

28:17

parenthood.

28:21

Yeah, paradox

28:21

is a good word for it. Yeah. I

28:24

often say that being an equine

28:24

vet is way easier than being a

28:27

stay at home mom. I do. I'm home

28:27

a lot more than I used to be.

28:32

And probably then a lot of

28:32

Equine vets. But I could not do

28:36

it all the time. It would be way

28:36

too hard.

28:38

No, I don't think

28:38

I could right now either. I

28:41

mean, even when I'm working from

28:41

home, they are at school. It's

28:45

impossible. So I definitely,

28:45

hats off to stay home parents

28:50

agree. Okay.

28:50

Luckily, they are so cute and

28:53

squishy, because it makes up for

28:53

a lot of stress. Well, thanks so

28:59

much for being here to talk a

28:59

little bit about your book.

29:01

Thank you. When is it available

29:01

for people to start learning all

29:05

this stuff?

29:06

It is available

29:06

for pre order now. It will ship

29:11

November 27 is when it's

29:11

predicted to ship so it's

29:15

available for preorder on like

29:15

Amazon and Barnes and Noble and

29:19

through CRC Press, which is the

29:19

publisher.

29:23

So awesome.

29:23

That's so exciting. Very excited

29:25

for that. Yeah, I'm so thankful

29:25

that you wrote this for

29:29

everyone. I'm sure it was not an

29:29

easy task. It was probably like

29:32

having another child for a

29:32

while. So thank you for doing

29:36

it.

29:38

Thank you. Thank

29:38

you for being a part of it.

29:40

Sure. I always

29:40

ask all my guests. What's one

29:43

small thing that has brought you

29:43

joy this past week?

29:45

So I live in Florida,

29:45

and it's been just kind of

29:49

oppressively hot here. This is

29:49

kind of like our winter when you

29:53

know up north or when just kind

29:53

of like stays inside during the

29:57

winter because it's too cold

29:57

like we stay inside during this

30:00

because it's just too hot, but

30:00

just this past week or so it's

30:04

gotten a little bit cooler in

30:04

the evenings and I've been able

30:07

to enjoy being outside a little

30:07

bit. Again, I love fall in the

30:11

South because it's our like

30:11

relief from the heat. So I was

30:16

looking forward to that. And I'm

30:16

excited to just be able to feel

30:19

that little bit of a breeze. So

30:19

that made me happy.

30:22

Awesome,

30:22

great. It's a good small thing.

30:25

Well, thanks again for being

30:25

here. I'll make sure to put

30:27

links to the book and ways to

30:27

get in touch with you. Is there

30:30

a best place to get in touch

30:30

with you for people listening?

30:33

I'm on Instagram

30:33

@emilysinglerVMD and LinkedIn.

30:39

Same thing, Emily singer VMD and

30:39

then I have my website, which is

30:43

also EmilySinglervmd.com

30:45

Perfect. Okay,

30:45

I'll put all the contact points.

30:48

Yes. Great. Thanks again.

30:50

Awesome. Thank you so much.

30:53

Thank you so much for tuning in to the whole veterinarian podcast. I so

30:55

appreciate the time that you

30:58

spend with me to connect, please

30:58

find me on Instagram at the

31:01

whole veterinarian, or check out

31:01

the website at the whole

31:05

veterinarian.com and you can

31:05

sign up for our monthly

31:07

newsletter as well. Thanks again

31:07

and I'll talk to you soon