0:00

But honestly, I feel like my

0:03

favorite hobby of all the hobbies

0:05

is digging holes. I don't think

0:07

I am happier. Okay, during the

0:09

church a slide with a bunch

0:12

of little kids not equal status

0:14

to digging holes in terms of

0:16

like the things that make me.

0:19

Happy all the way down all every

0:21

single layer. Those. Are the

0:23

two bags that just? that's? my happy place.

0:28

Look into a special bonus episode of

0:30

the Whole View with. Our

0:32

original founding co host, Sarah

0:35

Valentine Welcome to the whole

0:37

blurb. Well. I'm so

0:39

happy to v back. It's like

0:41

you know when you're like off

0:44

to college and colleges like completely

0:46

overwhelming but you're like. Doing.

0:48

It you like feel like you're finally an adult the

0:50

then you go back home. And like

0:52

you suddenly relax. And.

0:55

You like? Ah okay. That's. The feeling

0:57

I'm having right now it's the feeling of

0:59

like okay for a summer home after a

1:01

couple semesters away at college. Well

1:05

we. Are happy that you. Feel.

1:08

At home here and we're happy to have

1:10

you back listeners If this. Is somehow your

1:12

first time I'm safe? It off a real

1:14

everything in. We. Talk each week

1:17

about how to find happiness of health

1:19

inside and out. Years of. Love body

1:21

positivity and discovering new ways to be or

1:23

vessels. And. This episode

1:25

as a bonus episode because. Serenaded.

1:28

The Show for. Five.

1:31

Hundred episodes together.

1:34

And every single week I don't.

1:37

I really genuinely don't. Know.

1:39

What we pulled that off with? All.

1:41

The kids that we had between us and I

1:43

had a career and like all that kind of

1:45

stuff, we somehow. Made. Magic happen

1:47

for five hundred episode and then.

1:50

Sarah. Has gone up to a she's referring

1:53

to as college so will. Tell.

1:55

Us what you been up to. It has been way

1:57

too long. A. great what is good up So

2:00

I'm going to, I'm going to hold up

2:02

my prop because I brought it with me.

2:05

I made a new book, baby. I made a whole

2:07

new, I had made a whole new everything, a

2:09

new website, a new social

2:12

media presence. I'm on social

2:14

media platforms. I wasn't on before. Like

2:16

a whole, I made a whole new

2:18

dietary philosophy. So just, I made

2:21

a, I made a bunch of things all

2:23

under the umbrella term neutrover, which

2:25

I refer to as the simple goal of

2:27

getting all of the nutrients their bodies need

2:29

from the foods we eat. That's

2:31

the beginning, middle and end of what being

2:34

a newtuber is. And the

2:36

book and the website and my

2:38

social media content is about creating

2:40

the broad nutritional sciences

2:42

education for the average person to

2:44

help inform their day-to-day choices so

2:46

that they can increase

2:48

their nutrient intake within their

2:50

preferred diet or anti-diet. So a newtuber

2:52

is not a diet. There's no foods

2:55

to avoid or there's no foods you have to

2:57

eat. It is quite simply understanding

2:59

what nutrients do in the body, what foods

3:02

contain that nutrients and how to combine different

3:04

foods to get the full range of nutrients

3:06

that we need. So I create

3:08

all of those resources outside of any

3:10

specific dietary structure. I

3:13

still go for a formal hike every morning.

3:16

I believe that's the thing that's holding me together. Yes. How

3:19

is your puppy that's known for puppy

3:21

now? Yeah. She literally just turned four

3:24

years old, which is

3:27

really crazy to think of. She,

3:30

she has grown into just a

3:32

lovely dog. She's super well behaved,

3:34

but also like super communicative. I

3:37

think we have a really lovely, like mutual

3:39

respect. And I think the youtuber Zach

3:41

George for training me how to train

3:43

a puppy during the beginning

3:46

of the pandemic, because that's everything was

3:48

shut down. And so I just

3:51

watched Zach George YouTube videos for hours every day

3:53

to figure out what to do with my little

3:56

puppy. And Sure enough, all of

3:58

the promises that he made. Come true!

4:01

And she's still like a complete

4:03

clown because Portuguese water dogs are

4:05

that says their personalities. Still,

4:08

Too smart for her own good. But. Also,

4:10

just she wants to be a lapdog all

4:12

fifty five pounds of her. She's just like

4:14

cuddly. She wants to be under your feet

4:17

all the time. She's in the middle of

4:19

everything. If you're trying to have a conversation,

4:21

she's there with a squeaker toy a trying

4:24

to monopolize the conversation. So. She

4:26

is. Yes, she is just the most. Delightful.

4:29

She's the best thing I've ever done for my

4:31

health. Let right there she is the best thing.

4:33

I have ever done for both my physical mental health, I

4:37

will. Ask. Lauren

4:39

True Adam Fisher know to work.

4:42

Teams are no longer would be to

4:44

be and or in have been an

4:46

awesome part of the podcast. To.

4:48

Put in the show notes that show that

4:50

we did about. You. Getting a dog

4:53

and talking about how great dog ever? How can.

4:55

I. Talk a lot about. The.

4:57

Connection between physical and mental health

5:00

Since you blinds and it has

5:02

been. Eye. Opening for me

5:04

As you went on and your

5:06

journey, my path very much went

5:08

down. Sobbing. Aid

5:10

traumatized foster child's. I

5:13

to our home and like learning outside

5:15

my own privilege bubble. Learning.

5:17

How much. East.

5:19

Traumas and traumas in general have

5:21

honor, health and wellness and so

5:24

it's interesting. How.

5:27

Like. A chance to be.

5:30

Not so much in parallel anymore, but there

5:32

are so many people who are still. understanding.

5:35

And connected to both of the things

5:37

that were on this journey of wellness

5:39

on right? Like. They're. Not divergent

5:42

from each other in terms of like

5:44

other still overlap their sell those thing

5:46

and. Our friendship is what it

5:48

is forever and always. There were so much

5:50

action in the beginning about. Twas.

5:52

Really going on with you in San as a. Nothing.

5:55

We're just. we're both. Going.

5:57

In direction that our careers together under

5:59

fire. 500 episodes together. So

6:02

I think now looking back on it,

6:04

people who listen to the show

6:06

originally can probably see and understand where

6:09

we both were at that point

6:11

of like, I'm really feeling pulled in this

6:13

direction and I'm really feeling pulled in this direction

6:15

and seeing the grunts that we can both experience

6:18

from exploring both of them. And

6:20

as much as I really

6:22

still miss doing the show every week,

6:24

I really still miss chatting

6:27

with you and the connection

6:29

with the listeners. I

6:32

would not be able to be showing off

6:34

all of my Nutribor things if

6:36

I hadn't, I made sure

6:38

to reallocate that time

6:41

to the thing that I cared so

6:43

deeply about building that I see having

6:45

such such a

6:48

huge potential to really change the landscape

6:50

of public health in a way that

6:53

diets, right, like big D diets,

6:56

don't have the capacity to

6:59

because it's not a diet because it

7:02

doesn't involve restriction because

7:04

it does, it gets us out of that. I

7:07

ate something off plan. So now I feel guilty.

7:09

So now I have just been a bit of

7:12

eating patterns, right? It gets us

7:14

out of that, you know, that rollercoaster. And it's

7:16

just about developing lifelong eating

7:19

patterns, which I think is something we talked about

7:21

a lot and maybe the last

7:23

100 episodes that I did with you.

7:26

But I get to now create these

7:29

resources for the

7:31

person who thinks that healthy eating is out

7:33

of reach for them because

7:35

diet culture has made the barrier to

7:37

entry seem so high. And

7:39

my goal with Nutribor is to take that

7:41

bar and like dig a

7:44

trench and bury the bar

7:46

so that we really can look at

7:48

the benefits of one

7:50

serving of fruits or vegetables per day.

7:52

Like in how like the science says

7:54

that's huge. If that's where you're starting

7:56

from and we're adding one

7:59

serving, maybe it's even most days and not

8:01

every day. That has huge benefits

8:03

to long-term health and we can super

8:05

celebrate that decision. We can make it

8:08

whatever is available

8:10

wherever you get to shop for your

8:12

groceries. Maybe you don't live close to

8:14

a grocery store. Maybe it's a can

8:16

of green beans from the gas station.

8:18

We get to celebrate how

8:21

beneficial that choice is and completely

8:24

dissociate from I think

8:27

this world that we were both super steeped

8:29

in for a long time that makes

8:31

you feel like if you're not perfect, however

8:34

that particular diet

8:36

community defines perfect, then

8:38

it doesn't count. Then you don't,

8:40

whatever you're going through it's your

8:43

fault that you don't deserve something.

8:45

It gets us completely out of

8:47

that really toxic mindset. So

8:49

for me Nutribor is I think

8:52

the best way to frame it is I

8:54

think restrictive diets have gone, that

8:56

pendulum swing has gone as far

8:58

into restriction as it

9:00

can go. People are over it.

9:02

People are sick. There's nothing

9:04

left to restrict. People are eating one food

9:07

now. It is gone as far as it

9:09

can go. With the

9:11

growth of the body positivity

9:15

movement, intuitive eating, anti-diet,

9:19

I see that pendulum swinging the other way.

9:22

Nutribor is here to stop the pendulum

9:24

from swinging, to catch it and say,

9:26

yes, let's embrace body positivity,

9:28

health at any size, non-restrictive eating

9:30

patterns, a permissive dietary structure rather

9:32

than the restrictive one, one

9:35

that is still flexible and adaptable to

9:37

your specific needs and

9:39

gets us off of

9:42

that roller coaster of

9:44

shame and guilt while

9:46

still embracing the benefits of

9:48

higher diet quality, while still

9:50

teaching what we

9:53

don't know intuitively anymore. So

9:55

many people don't know what a balanced

9:57

diet looks like because the mixed

9:59

message from diet culture have taught us so

10:02

many different things that are not actually in

10:04

line with where the science is at. So

10:06

for me, Nutribur is about making diet culture

10:08

not a thing, making it no longer have

10:10

influence over our lives, which

10:12

is just a small goal. Yeah,

10:14

small. Yeah, I think it's interesting

10:17

because for me, when I hear the

10:19

terms even balanced diet, it's a

10:21

sure word for me. I immediately I get

10:23

like, like on the inside

10:26

because I think about now

10:28

that I am much more engaged in

10:30

the community of people who are educating

10:32

on the opposite side of the aisle

10:34

that I lived on for so long.

10:37

And I see content like

10:39

diet culture says only

10:41

eat lean meats, but then add MCT

10:43

oil to your coffee. And they'll do

10:45

these like things where it's two totally

10:47

opposite things. And yet that is what

10:51

diet culture has told people and

10:53

no wonder people are confused. And

10:57

how can you find balance when

10:59

there's so much noise and chaos

11:01

in the world of telling you what to eat. And

11:04

so for me, I found peace

11:06

in just being like, I'm

11:08

gonna shut that word down. Like that world doesn't exist for

11:10

me. And I do think

11:12

as you mentioned, like you

11:14

end up going in this opposite opposite

11:18

way of the pendulum and my personal

11:20

experiences, after having disordered eating

11:22

for so long on the opposite side,

11:25

then my body was like, Oh,

11:27

we can have the things now we're going to have

11:30

all the things and we're going to re

11:32

feed ourselves after literally being starved our whole

11:35

life and thinking that I'm never going to

11:37

get x, y or z again. And eventually

11:40

the goal, whether it be intuitive eating

11:43

or whatever someone is calling something where

11:45

they're just existing with food as nourishment

11:47

and fuel for their bodies. That

11:49

goal is to live in peace with

11:51

that, right? To not hear the noise

11:53

and all of those things. And I

11:56

think that is

11:58

such a complex thing. to

12:00

describe to someone because you have to be willing

12:02

to see the problem

12:04

of diet culture. Then you have to be willing

12:06

to completely let go of it all

12:08

and be willing to like

12:10

fully fall into, as you and I

12:13

used to joke, a pizza

12:16

buffet at the time. Right? Like

12:18

you have to be willing to do whatever and

12:20

then come to whatever

12:24

balance that is for yourself. And

12:26

it could take a really long

12:28

time of not denying yourself, depending

12:30

on how strict and

12:32

how long someone's journey on that pendulum

12:35

could have been. Yeah, I

12:39

think the

12:41

best way that I can

12:44

describe what I'm trying to

12:46

build with NutriVore is

12:48

a set of not

12:52

even principles, like just a knowledge base.

12:54

Like you graduate from high school and

12:56

algebra and you know your multiplication tables

12:58

and you have some basic

13:01

grammar skills. Right? Just

13:03

creating that basic

13:05

knowledge base that can help

13:08

us improve diet quality

13:11

within our budget, within

13:14

what we have access to,

13:16

within our time constraints and

13:18

energy constraints, within our food

13:20

preferences. And we

13:22

can so we can improve diet quality.

13:25

There's no like, there's no

13:27

perfect, right? There's where we're starting

13:29

from and what's a

13:32

level better diet quality than

13:34

that. And we can do

13:36

that in a way that feels

13:39

natural, that doesn't feel like we're

13:41

white-knuckling every meal,

13:44

that doesn't feel like we're

13:46

depriving ourselves, that is just,

13:49

oh I understand the value of that

13:51

can of green beans at the gas station,

13:53

that's the vegetable I have access to, that's

13:55

what I'm going to add to my regular

13:57

rotation and I'm going to prepare it in

13:59

a that I enjoy so that

14:01

I don't feel like I'm

14:04

gagging every time I try to eat a

14:06

vegetable and I'm going to

14:08

appreciate the long-term health benefits that's going to give

14:10

me. So I get to improve diet quality without

14:12

it being a diet, without it having a weight

14:14

loss goal or

14:17

a body, whatever,

14:19

like a heal my leaky gut

14:21

goal. It's just about

14:24

supporting my long-term health. I'm a success

14:26

that can improve how I feel today,

14:29

but it's much more

14:32

about making higher

14:34

diet quality as normal

14:37

and non-restrictive as

14:39

possible so that

14:42

we can reduce the

14:44

risk of health problems down the road without

14:47

feeling like we're sacrificing our joy

14:50

from food today to

14:53

get there. And

14:56

it's interesting to me on the other side as a

14:58

foster parent, I feel like is

15:01

the only way that I would have been

15:03

able to truly understand what

15:06

it is that you're referencing in terms

15:09

of food desert and

15:12

lack of knowledge or education,

15:15

right? Because I have a

15:17

child who learned that food

15:19

was bad and learned that food was

15:23

something that was

15:25

doing things to their body that they were

15:27

criticized for or different kinds of things and

15:30

never that food was fuel, never

15:32

that food was nourishment. And

15:36

grew up eating cereal

15:38

and ramen and coming

15:41

into my home and realizing that's one

15:43

of the only comforts that they have of

15:46

consistency in their life is the food that they

15:48

eat. They have a completely different wardrobe.

15:50

They have a completely different bed. They

15:52

have a completely different group of people that they now

15:55

live in. They have a completely different set of rules

15:57

in their home. But the one thing that refers

15:59

to food is the food that they eat. The main constant is

16:03

those lace potato chips that are plain are my

16:05

favorite. Can you get them from the store? And

16:08

it's, I remember specifically

16:10

a couple of months in

16:13

to them being here, I shared

16:15

on social about having Jeff's

16:18

peanut butter, there was a recall and I was like,

16:20

Hey, I just want to like, let everybody know if

16:23

you have this peanut butter, like we

16:26

have right here, return it because it's not

16:28

good. I forget even what the problem was.

16:30

And there were multiple people who told me

16:32

like, why do you even have that peanut

16:34

butter? And I got so

16:37

mama bear defensive about it. And like, because

16:39

that's the peanut butter that my child will

16:41

eat. That's the peanut butter that

16:43

gives my child a sense of comfort and stability

16:45

and safety in the world. And like, of

16:48

all the things that there are to worry about

16:50

in this world, you judging me about

16:52

what peanut butter is in my house is like

16:54

the last thing that needs to be on someone's list. So

16:57

it's interesting that you say something like green

16:59

beans on a gas

17:01

station shelf as being something

17:04

that could improve someone's health, because there

17:07

are certainly points in our journey

17:09

and years ago on this

17:11

show where we would

17:13

have had a very different perspective on

17:15

that and would have been judgmental, would

17:17

have been negative, would have been harsh

17:19

about all those things. And I noticed

17:22

that in the past

17:24

couple of months, especially, there has been an

17:26

awakening in your social media. And I

17:29

don't want to say that like your

17:31

social media is different because I do

17:33

see a transition over the years. It's

17:35

certainly, it's like people finally realized

17:37

that you were saying something different

17:39

or had a mindset shift. And

17:43

so I wonder if

17:45

you can share specifically, I

17:48

polled one of your Instagram

17:50

posts to speak to that

17:52

language and that change, because

17:54

I think it might help listeners

17:57

understand a little bit of that journey for

17:59

you. Like, my journey is mine in terms

18:01

of a foster kid and understanding, but

18:03

your journey has been

18:06

different for you and the reasons why I think are important.

18:09

Okay, I would love to. I get

18:11

asked here almost every week about how

18:14

and why my content is so very

18:16

different than it was pre-pandemic. Moving

18:19

forward requires taking a step back

18:21

and letting go of value judgments

18:23

about food that lacks scientific support.

18:26

It's crucial to emphasize that this isn't

18:28

about laying blame or feeling guilt, but

18:30

rather about making room in our minds

18:33

for a wealth of new, invaluable information

18:35

focused on the positives that we

18:38

can gain from a nutrient-focused approach

18:40

like Nutribor, and where

18:42

no food is off the table. Nourishment,

18:44

not judgment. It's

18:47

important to stay up to date on scientific

18:49

evidence, and recent studies have

18:51

definitely changed the landscape of human

18:53

knowledge of nutrition. Nutritional sciences is

18:55

a very young field of research, and

18:57

thanks to advances in methodology and technology,

18:59

new studies are adding to our understanding

19:02

all the time. I gave

19:05

a webinar that was long in the

19:07

making called The Truth About Food Toxins.

19:10

I spoke in detail about 12 common

19:12

food toxins and share how my approach

19:14

has changed. I was able

19:16

to do that thanks to new evidence

19:18

and scientific studies that challenged the status

19:20

quo. Additionally, some of

19:22

the myths I busted in this webinar,

19:25

I was able to do so thanks

19:27

to my shift to a more rigorous

19:29

metric and objective view of the

19:31

science. It is the responsibility

19:33

of all scientists to adjust our stance

19:35

when new studies demand it. I

19:40

want to applaud you for that.

19:42

First of all, transparency and change

19:45

and being vulnerable like that is

19:47

difficult, and I know

19:49

that there are people whose belief is

19:52

if you are not steadfast in your stance,

19:55

then you are wrong. Like, well, then

19:57

you were wrong before versus I

20:00

did the best that I could with the knowledge that

20:02

I had at the time. We

20:04

have hypothesis, we tried them out,

20:06

we move forward, and then we see if they worked

20:09

or not. And a lot of what

20:11

we talked about was often N equals

20:13

one type stuff, right? Do the things

20:15

that work for you

20:17

because the science wasn't fully supporting

20:20

some of the things. We

20:22

could see some science and we could

20:24

talk about it's really bio-independent and some

20:26

of these things. One

20:30

of the areas that I wish

20:32

that we had better understood at that time was

20:34

the role of mental health in our brain and

20:37

our nervous system going into a lot

20:39

of these things because we talked about

20:41

reducing stress but not in the same

20:43

kind of way that the information in

20:45

the science now is really in-depth on

20:47

having a role in chronic illness that

20:50

we didn't give credit to before. But

20:52

I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to

20:55

what some of that science is that you

20:58

specifically found to be helpful

21:00

in moving you forward. So

21:03

I think to take a step

21:05

backwards in terms of the journey

21:08

for me for even changing

21:11

how I read the

21:13

science. When I first

21:15

came into the paleo community in

21:17

2011, I was a

21:20

zealot because paleo really

21:22

rapidly resolved some health issues. I didn't even

21:24

know that. I remember specifically you being like,

21:26

I'm the person that everywhere you went and

21:29

all they could talk about. Well, hey, did

21:31

you know that bagel you're eating is going

21:33

to kill you? Yes, no, I was a

21:35

zealot. The reason why I

21:37

started my original website was because I

21:39

needed an outlet for that enthusiasm. And

21:42

it's because I had symptoms that I

21:44

had been dealing with for 12 years

21:46

that resolved very quickly that I

21:48

now recognize as being purely driven

21:50

by undiagnosed gluten intolerance. But

21:53

I didn't know that until I changed

21:56

my diet and I

21:58

credited everything that I wanted was

22:00

cutting out for those

22:02

changes, which I think is how most of

22:04

us who were in the

22:07

paleocommunity felt about it at that

22:09

time. And I also learned

22:11

this way of thinking about

22:14

foods from scientists like Professor

22:16

Lauren Cordain, who would

22:18

talk about the lectins

22:21

in wheat or grains

22:23

and legumes and how those

22:26

can increase inflammation or intestinal

22:28

permeability. And so I

22:31

learned this way of thinking about foods

22:33

that if you can identify a compound

22:35

or collection of compounds that have this negative

22:37

effect to one biological system, well then that

22:39

food's terrible, we should not eat that food.

22:42

And the beginning of my

22:46

complete change of perspective, my awakening, if

22:48

we can call it that, was

22:50

actually the research I did in the gut microbiome that started in

22:52

what, 2014, 2015, I think is when

22:54

I started working on that

22:57

book. I

23:03

think green

23:05

host wasn't until

23:07

like 17 or 18. But

23:09

I remember I was like, ooh, I'm

23:11

gonna put this out there and sing. Yes.

23:14

And I started very intentionally

23:17

talking about oats and corn

23:19

and lentils and chickpeas in,

23:22

it was either late 2019 or

23:25

very early 2020, was when I was like, okay,

23:27

here's all this body scientific evidence. I

23:30

think there's things that we might be

23:32

wrong about on paleo. I'm gonna start

23:34

presenting this science. So it

23:36

started with looking through the lens of the

23:39

gut microbiome. Our gut bacteria influence every aspect

23:41

of our health. And

23:43

I would look at these studies that

23:45

show, oh, these foods that contain lectins

23:47

that I have not been eating for

23:49

many years now, also

23:51

happen to contain incredibly beneficial fiber

23:53

types. They're rich in vitamins and

23:55

minerals. They have all these polyphenols

23:58

that our gut bacteria love. And

24:00

lo and behold, when you eat these foods,

24:02

they improve the composition of the gut microbiome.

24:05

And so I started

24:07

reevaluating foods through the lens of the

24:09

gut microbiome and trying to understand maybe some of

24:12

the foods that I'm cutting out, maybe

24:14

I would be better off if I reintroduced them.

24:17

And I started, I like to walk the

24:19

walk, I started reintroducing them one by one

24:21

very cautiously. Initially, I had a

24:23

lot of fear, and that

24:25

made the stress response of

24:28

adding these foods back in, make it hard

24:30

to interpret whether or not they were working

24:32

for me. As I

24:34

got more comfortable with, I'm pretty sure

24:36

I feel better with lentils in my

24:39

diet. I'm pretty sure I feel better

24:41

eating corn as I

24:43

reintroduced those foods and calmed that

24:47

phobia, right? It was a stress response.

24:49

I had fear of those foods from

24:52

being steeped in the

24:54

paleo community, the AIP community for so long and

24:56

being steeped in that way of thinking about foods.

24:59

But as I was introducing them into

25:01

my own diet and always after

25:04

researching them excessively, because

25:06

that's the way I live life, I

25:09

really started to go, I think

25:12

there's some things that

25:14

we have wrong. And

25:16

that made me leaving

25:18

the paleo community feel more

25:21

important. Also

25:23

beginning a pandemic was a time where I'm

25:26

trying to follow the science and expand

25:28

my diet, and I'm seeing a lot

25:30

of my ex-colleagues actually

25:33

lean into anti-science conspiracy

25:35

theories that doesn't jibe

25:37

with who I am. And

25:40

Nutriver was the natural place

25:43

for me to go. But Nutriver

25:45

itself, as a concept, I think

25:47

really then evolved between when

25:49

I first started working on it in early 2020

25:51

to launching the website 15 months ago and writing

25:53

the book

25:58

over that same period of time. NeuJibor

26:01

itself then evolved because then I

26:03

started looking at, okay, not just

26:05

through the lens of the gut microbiome,

26:07

let's look at how lentils impact cardiovascular

26:10

disease risk, type 2 diabetes risk, risk

26:12

of Alzheimer's disease. And

26:15

what I very quickly discovered is

26:17

I'm thinking about foods. I've learned

26:20

this way of thinking about foods, and

26:22

it's a logical fallacy. It's

26:25

incorrect. Just because there's one

26:27

compound in a food that maybe

26:29

is not beneficial

26:31

or maybe it's harmful even in

26:35

one particular circumstance, that

26:37

doesn't mean that the whole food with

26:40

thousands, millions of different compounds

26:42

in it, so many different molecules, that

26:44

doesn't mean the whole food has that impact.

26:47

The whole food has nutrients that can

26:49

counteract the impact of lectins, for example.

26:53

And so if I look at the impact of

26:55

the whole food as part of a regular eating pattern

26:57

and look at the impact of that

26:59

on health, well, the science shows a very

27:02

different story. The science

27:05

shows legumes do all the good things

27:07

that we want health-wise. And

27:10

then I even upped, I think,

27:12

the level of scientific rigor even

27:14

more. I mostly quote meta-analyses and

27:17

systematic reviews. I very

27:19

rarely quote individual studies. I

27:21

only do when they agree

27:23

with the meta-analyses. That

27:25

study itself is fascinating because they

27:28

did a thing where they gave women 20% of

27:30

their calories

27:33

from almonds every day, and they had less wrinkles after

27:35

a few months. That's just cool. We all want to

27:37

know that kind of science, right? But

27:40

it would all become almond mums. This

27:44

is different than being ... Yes, no. That

27:46

is super not ... We super do not want

27:48

to be an almond mum here. And I

27:51

think why I started leaning into systematic reviews,

27:53

I was building a new brand at the

27:55

same time, and I felt like this

27:58

isn't me entering a community. that already exists,

28:01

that already has a fan base, that

28:03

already has visibility online. This is me

28:05

building a thing that I

28:07

want to grow even bigger, that

28:10

I want everyone in the

28:12

world to eventually know about. I want the word

28:14

neutral word to be added to the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

28:17

This is my ultimate goal. And

28:20

so it can't rely on

28:22

me as an influencer or

28:24

personality. It has to

28:26

be ironclad scientific evidence.

28:29

And as I'm realizing that

28:31

my scientific approach was

28:34

flawed, that this way of thinking that

28:36

I learned from people I super respected

28:38

with all the fancy acronyms, the end

28:41

of their names too, as

28:43

I'm realizing that's not the right

28:45

way to evaluate the merits of

28:47

food, I'm also building the things

28:49

that I want to stand up to

28:51

scientific scrutiny. And

28:53

so in order to do that, I need

28:56

to use the highest form of scientific evidence

28:58

to inform every single thing I

29:00

say, every little detail. So

29:02

I now rely very heavily on systematic

29:04

reviews. And what they do is they

29:06

pull together data from many

29:09

different studies. So they

29:11

have higher statistical power to be able

29:13

to evaluate whether or not something is

29:15

good or bad for us overall, how

29:18

it impacts different health outcomes. And

29:20

they're typically incorporated as part

29:23

of a meta-analysis and systematic review,

29:25

typically go hand in hand. So

29:27

that also includes reviewing the

29:30

literature that explains mechanisms, that

29:32

explains why legumes reduce

29:34

cardiovascular disease risk. And

29:37

so I then in writing the book and building the

29:40

website, I was like, well, I'm going back to the

29:42

drawing board on everything. There's

29:45

nothing I have talked about in the past that

29:47

I am not going to go back to the

29:49

science. And so going back to

29:51

the science with this different perspective, like a lot

29:53

of it was me relearning

29:57

where the science is at because

29:59

I'm looking at it. more objectively,

30:01

more rigorously. I'm just

30:04

more back to my medical research roots,

30:06

I think. But then also

30:08

I'm updating. And so for example,

30:10

the science on vegetable oils

30:13

has really changed in the last five years. Vegetable

30:16

oils have this like,

30:18

we've got the mechanisms of why the

30:21

linoleic acid should

30:23

be inflammatory. We

30:25

know the molecules, the paracrine

30:27

and autocrine signaling molecules that linoleic

30:29

acid gets turned into in the

30:32

cell membrane that are responsible for

30:34

pro-inflammatory signals. Like we know, like

30:36

we've got this whole biochemical

30:38

pathway mapped out. We

30:41

know omega 3 to omega 6 ratio should matter for

30:45

inflammation. The

30:48

studies done in humans over the

30:51

last few years show

30:53

actually vegetable oils

30:55

reduce cardiovascular disease risk

30:57

and are either

30:59

neutral for inflammation or

31:01

slightly anti-inflammatory. And we don't,

31:04

like we don't know why, but there's so much

31:06

data now just from the last few years saying

31:08

actually no, vegetable oils, totally

31:10

healthy oils to eat. Nothing

31:13

wrong with them. In fact, they're extremely

31:15

beneficial and like canola oil and

31:17

olive oil are like equal in

31:19

their health benefits and they work

31:21

slightly differently. So we are better

31:24

off health-wise if we use

31:26

them both and like mix it up. That

31:29

was so mind-blowing to me and what

31:32

it means is that there's something

31:34

regulating the molecules that

31:36

are being formed out of omega

31:38

3 and omega 6 polyunsaturated fatty

31:40

acids in the cell membrane that

31:43

is not just substrate availability, which is what

31:45

we thought it was and we don't know

31:47

what it is, which is so

31:49

cool. So I think

31:51

what I'm saying in I'm speaking pure nerd right

31:54

now, I realize I've stopped speaking English. It's just

31:56

nerd now. But going back

31:58

to the science. with

32:00

this new perspective and with a really

32:03

as open a mind as I could.

32:05

My mind is continuously blown. Like every

32:07

time I'm like, oh here's a I

32:09

found another corner. I found another corner

32:11

of food judgment that I haven't challenged.

32:13

That I need to oh I

32:15

found another food. Wait I wasn't eating peanuts?

32:17

Okay we're gonna we're gonna do

32:19

the research on peanuts and I'm gonna talk myself into eating

32:21

peanuts and oh look they're delicious. Yay!

32:24

Every time I've been able to

32:26

do this it's a improve my quality

32:28

of life because it's another way that

32:30

I'm increasing dietary diversity which is really

32:32

important. It's another collection of

32:35

foods that I'm able to eat. It's

32:37

another way that I can think

32:39

positively about a food instead of

32:41

negatively. It's another way that I

32:43

can move beyond restrictive mindset. And

32:46

then it's like just cool science

32:48

because I get to learn with

32:50

my previous knowledge base I get

32:52

to learn fresh. Like what

32:55

are the benefits of these foods and

32:57

how does that work? So it's

32:59

this journey again it really

33:01

started back in 2015-ish when I

33:03

started. I got Microbiome Book

33:05

that never but it's really

33:08

accelerated with the

33:10

development of NutriVore and

33:13

wanting NutriVore to be as

33:16

accessible to

33:19

people as possible and

33:21

as flexible as

33:23

possible. So yeah

33:26

so I have very different views

33:28

on all of the foods I

33:30

didn't eat before. I

33:32

love also that you

33:34

first of all spoke so openly about

33:37

so many things but in particular how

33:39

incredibly hard it was for both of us to

33:41

be in the midst of the pandemic and to

33:43

see so many not just colleagues

33:45

but friends yeah saying

33:48

and doing things that felt like

33:50

it put public health in danger

33:52

and that it felt like

33:56

we were responsible for having

33:58

a voice to the

34:01

wellness community still being rational,

34:03

logical people. And

34:06

I think that has really, I don't know

34:08

about you, but for me, it has really

34:10

informed my perspective as I

34:12

move forward in the health and wellness

34:14

space to ensure that I

34:16

continue to break down the barriers of

34:21

health and wellness being this healthism

34:24

enabled concept that

34:28

held up standards of supremacy in

34:30

terms of thinness and whiteness and

34:32

all of these kinds of things

34:35

that I did not understand when

34:37

we were originally talking about these

34:39

things and seeing the behavior

34:41

of people and seeing what they were saying and

34:43

where it was coming from during that

34:46

time. It was like an explosion in

34:48

my brain of like, oh my gosh,

34:50

that's what I've been doing. Like I

34:52

did not mean to be a part of that. And I

34:55

think there are a lot of people, listeners who

34:57

are still here, readers of our website

35:00

who also have that awakening, right? Who were

35:02

like, oh, I did that. I

35:04

am not okay with that thing, that

35:06

person is doing anymore. And

35:09

so I really appreciate that you're calling

35:11

that out because I think that it was eye

35:13

opening for a lot of people who were thinking

35:16

of health and wellness and any sort of aspect

35:18

in terms of like, identifying that, putting a name

35:20

to it. And you've also

35:23

posted more recently about

35:26

healthism and as you spoke to

35:28

confirmation bias in terms of

35:30

how you were perceiving scientific articles or looking for

35:32

the answers that you believe to be true, those

35:35

kinds of things. How do you think when

35:38

you consider nature war and the work that

35:40

you're doing, but also the overall

35:42

health and wellness space and

35:46

we're working towards making things more inclusive, both

35:48

of us, right? There

35:50

are a lot of people in the community, we can only speak

35:52

for ourselves here. There are a lot of people

35:54

who are trying really

35:56

hard to help people who think

36:00

that health isn't possible for them. That's not,

36:02

like health isn't even on their radar because

36:04

they have three jobs and they

36:06

get four hours of sleep and they

36:08

can't afford organic food. So they

36:11

think they can't be healthy. Like where

36:13

do we think that the possibility

36:16

of inclusion is

36:18

somehow going to converge? You know

36:20

what I mean? Like what does that look like to you?

36:24

That's such a good question.

36:27

I think there's so

36:30

many different barriers

36:32

we need to break down to

36:34

make higher diet

36:36

quality truly inclusive. So

36:39

one problem that we have right now in

36:41

the, for lack

36:44

of a better term, wellness community

36:47

at large is

36:49

that the social

36:51

media algorithms reward fear. Fear

36:55

engages. And

36:58

that is what a lot of

37:01

influencers businesses are

37:03

based on, right? So their livelihoods

37:05

are based on making you afraid of

37:07

certain foods. And

37:10

there are, I would say like

37:12

the people that I count as

37:14

colleagues, there's a large number of

37:17

people who have come on this journey with us and

37:20

who are like all in

37:23

on moving beyond restrictive diets

37:25

who are really looking at the problems

37:27

of food apartheid and

37:30

like want to like solve

37:32

these big structural problems that we

37:34

have. Lovely to still have so many

37:36

colleagues from the olden days but I also have

37:38

like really plugged into like a new group of

37:42

mutuals on social media, sharing

37:45

each other's content. Weirdly

37:48

like fitness bros and I get

37:50

along really well now. So that's cool.

37:52

But also like anti diet dietitians is

37:54

like a big part of my like current

37:57

group of like professional colleagues.

38:00

online. And I think it's

38:02

challenging because all of

38:04

our messaging is, oh

38:07

no, it's okay, calm down.

38:09

We don't need to be afraid. Like

38:11

it's totally fine if you don't buy

38:13

organic. They actually don't. There's no difference

38:15

in health outcomes between organic and conventional

38:17

food. It matters more what kind of foods

38:19

you're eating and you don't have to be

38:21

perfect, right? That message of

38:25

calm and reassurance doesn't

38:28

feed the social media algorithms

38:30

the way fear does. And

38:32

I think one of the big challenges we have

38:35

is figuring out

38:37

how to get our message out there without

38:40

engaging in fear

38:42

mongering. And there's certainly some people

38:44

within the more science based anti-diet

38:46

part of the wellness community that

38:49

do use anger and fear to try to get

38:51

their messages out. I don't see it as being

38:54

particularly successful. I don't

38:56

really have a solution for that. I don't have

38:58

a solution other than like just more of us

39:00

talking. It will, you know,

39:02

help. No, it's a

39:04

great point because I can think of influencers

39:07

who the

39:10

anti-diet person does

39:13

a rebuttal and it's like

39:15

fear that this person is telling you this.

39:18

And that is what fights the

39:21

engagement with people, right? And it's

39:23

like they have an

39:25

actual response to frustration of

39:28

the other person versus

39:30

like just the

39:32

normalcy of intuitive eating and

39:35

calm yourself. Do not engage

39:38

people the same kind of way. And it is

39:41

because the

39:43

more restrictive something is, the more attracted

39:45

to people are to it for some

39:48

sort of reason. It's like simplicity, right?

39:50

Our brain is like that

39:52

I can, that I understand that makes sense. There

39:54

must be a reason for these things. I'm just

39:56

going to do, give me the list. I'm just

39:58

going to do the thing that they're helping to

40:01

do. And unfortunately, as you've noted,

40:03

like the science is just tearing

40:08

those things apart. I

40:10

had Jessica Flanagan on the show, one

40:13

of the first early, I don't know, first

40:15

50 shows, I'll put a link in the show.

40:18

And I remember she was talking about the

40:20

work that she was doing as a prior

40:22

AIT coach, and she was starting to see

40:25

people's health results and fecal samples. And

40:27

she realized that people's health was actually

40:29

deteriorating. And she was like, Oh my

40:31

goodness, and had to like completely

40:33

do a 180 that she was all on board

40:36

as well. She was like, gung ho and then

40:38

have to recognize

40:40

in a similar way that we did but

40:42

different because she was seeing a result that

40:44

was showing something different on it. That's

40:48

a harder sell to people of like, yeah,

40:50

I'm gonna need to just like go back

40:52

to being normal. But it's worthwhile. I feel

40:54

like there's we've got other challenges to talk

41:01

about how to make healthy eating

41:03

inclusive. But it's worthwhile AIP tangent

41:06

right here, to say that

41:08

Mickey Trescott and Jamie Hartman who have

41:11

taken the lead on the AIP since

41:13

I have moved on to building Nutribor

41:16

have actually just launched like a

41:18

whole new revised AIP that

41:21

has almost no initial

41:23

elimination. So even the

41:25

AIP is continuing to follow

41:28

this science and

41:30

look at the importance of things

41:33

like dietary diversity and really

41:35

like super emphasizing the importance

41:38

of reintroductions, the importance of not not

41:40

developing that that food fear. So even

41:42

the AIP is evolving over this period

41:44

of time, not led by me, but

41:46

led by by Mickey and Jamie, and

41:48

the community of AIP coaches. So shout

41:51

out to the amazing work that they're doing because

41:53

I can only do

41:55

so much. And in fact, I'm probably already

41:57

doing seven times more than I realistically can

41:59

accomplish. But I think

42:01

that the more we

42:04

rely on science to inform us,

42:06

right, and teach

42:08

people scientific literacy with every piece of

42:11

content that we create, right, because the

42:13

challenge here is that less than a

42:15

third of Americans are considered scientifically literate.

42:19

So we need to also

42:21

like help people understand science. It's a

42:23

process. We iterate our understanding. Nutritional

42:26

sciences is very young. There are

42:28

still things that we're learning that might change.

42:32

And when you can help people understand how

42:34

science works at the same time as you're

42:36

using the science to like

42:39

underlie an important principle, then

42:41

that helps people, A, just understand

42:44

it better so that when they see the

42:46

misinformation, they can identify it. But

42:49

then also it helps people be receptive

42:51

to the next piece of information, right,

42:53

the next study that's really important. I

42:56

think it would be great if we could have better science journalism in

42:58

the world. I'm super annoyed with them

43:01

right now. You'd have to then solve the

43:03

clickbait problem, right? It's the same thing as

43:05

the media. Right. It is. Again,

43:08

it's that same how do you get people to

43:10

engage with content without

43:13

the outrage piece? I

43:16

think so my don't tell TikTok, but

43:18

my favorite place on the internet is

43:21

threads. Don't tell

43:23

TikTok. TikTok, I still love you. Threads is

43:26

the most lovely social media platform. You still

43:28

need to curate your feeds the way you

43:30

do any social media platform, but

43:33

I have an audience on threads that

43:36

is super engaged with positive

43:40

nonjudgmental information about food. Hey,

43:43

here's this really cool thing in watermelon.

43:45

That's it. That's the whole, that's

43:47

the whole post. Here's this great thing. Watermelon is

43:49

good for you. No, the number of people who

43:52

still think that watermelon is just sugar water is

43:54

so sad. So nutrient dense. Watermelon is so good

43:56

for you. Second best source

43:58

of lycopene after tomatoes. and

44:00

top source of L-citrulline, which is

44:02

really good for your muscles. So

44:05

watermelon, great food. And

44:07

so that's my content on threads. It's just like,

44:10

here's, it's 500 characters, so it

44:12

can't be my normal, lengthy

44:14

prose. But here's one really cool fact

44:17

that makes you feel good about a food

44:19

that you already like, that you already eat

44:21

regularly. Like, that's the vibe. That's the

44:23

vibe on threads, like, here's this really important

44:25

information to make you feel good about something

44:27

that you should feel good about,

44:29

but you didn't know that you could feel good about. And

44:33

the positivity, the

44:35

way people are engaging with

44:38

content on threads, and we're starting to see

44:40

it spread, we're starting to see that same

44:42

type of, wow, that's so cool,

44:45

I didn't know that. The

44:47

curiosity and an open mind, but

44:49

also just being

44:52

positive about foods that

44:55

have some kind of cool nutrient

44:58

or neat science showing

45:00

health benefits, and

45:02

not talking about

45:05

other, like,

45:07

just not talking negatively about any food. Not

45:09

even talking negatively about white

45:12

sugar, right? Like, not talking negatively about

45:14

anything. Food has merit. All

45:16

foods have merit, right? It either has

45:18

nutritional merit, or it has

45:21

energy merit, right? So, even white sugar,

45:23

you'd say, there's contexts

45:25

where people need calories.

45:28

Very important to prevent weight loss during chemotherapy,

45:30

for example, but when you're feeling terrible, and

45:32

maybe white sugar is a really important food

45:35

for that person, right? So, we're not going

45:37

to demonize a food because it has a

45:39

lot of energy. There's contexts where that's very

45:41

valuable. So, foods can have nutrients, it can have

45:43

energy, and it can have experience,

45:46

right? It can

45:48

be some delightful thing. And

45:51

a lot of foods have a mix, right? A lot

45:53

of foods have two or all three

45:55

of those, but we can

45:57

value foods For what it gives.,

46:00

That. Air. Whether it's

46:02

energy, nutrients, and or joy, And

46:04

to be able to take that

46:07

approach prizes the place. And

46:09

people are like. Oh yeah, I

46:11

get it. This is what I want and

46:13

I think because I see this one. Lovely.

46:16

Corner of the internet. Where.

46:19

People. Are pardon the

46:21

pun. Hungry for this type

46:23

of information? It

46:26

gives me hope. That there

46:28

is a way. To. Continue

46:30

to create positive content without

46:33

the click bait, without the

46:35

fear. Without. The of

46:37

the out raids. That

46:40

helps to inform people.

46:43

Not. Just about. Healthy eating

46:45

patterns and nutritious foods,

46:47

but also. About

46:49

a healthy relationship with food. A.

46:52

Healthy relationship with our own

46:54

bodies. I'm in a corporate said

46:56

into everything. There. Is this

46:58

corner of the internet where that works? where

47:00

people want to that and they're engaging with

47:03

that and that makes me think we can

47:05

get that everywhere else. And

47:07

maybe it's patients. Maybe.

47:09

It's getting more voices over here and

47:11

her to this. Side. Where

47:13

a player it's not which is on. right?

47:16

Because this it's author rational logical

47:18

people that left at that went

47:20

on. Yeah. Yeah

47:22

I. It's. Interesting

47:24

to think about. We're.

47:28

Safe spaces make the and how

47:30

to curie emanating bath important whether.

47:33

It's. On a social media popular or can also

47:35

be the people in your life. I know

47:37

me on. The. I

47:40

certainly have people in my life to seem

47:42

to have a really hard time not talking

47:44

about. Their body or other

47:46

people's bodies. Every time

47:48

I'm in their presence and. Whether.

47:52

That. Look Flay. Advocating.

47:54

For yourself or your

47:56

children or whatever. I.

47:58

Think that it's important that we. ourselves in

48:00

a position to learn in whatever

48:03

way works for us. Whether you

48:05

listen to this podcast or

48:07

you're watching Sarah's daily walks

48:09

on Instagram, TikTok, or GED,

48:12

whatever your preference is, right?

48:14

Like learning in some sort of way

48:16

so that when you are in those

48:18

situations you can build this tolerance to

48:21

the behavior that you want to avoid,

48:23

right? Like the mindset of, I

48:26

call it like a trench that's dug

48:29

over the same thought process over and

48:31

over again becomes the Grand Canyon and it's hard

48:33

to get out of, but you have

48:35

to, you know, grab on

48:37

the hands of the people who are trying to lift

48:39

you out of the Grand Canyon in

48:42

order to dig a different trench on the other

48:44

side and to have different thought process and that

48:46

can be really hard. And so I do think that

48:49

community, which means a whole lot of things

48:51

to a lot of different people is certainly

48:55

one of the ways that we have

48:57

to engage in order to move forward.

48:59

And part of that has

49:01

also been really humbling for me to like

49:03

watch and be part of community that

49:06

criticizes things that I'm a part of or things

49:08

that I did before or whatever it might be

49:10

and be like, yep, I was

49:12

part of that and I'm trying to learn and I'm

49:14

trying to do better. And so

49:16

one of the areas that I would

49:19

be remiss if we didn't while we were

49:21

catching up about is we both

49:23

have teenagers. We started this journey when

49:26

our children were teeny

49:28

tiny, teeny teeny

49:30

babies. I remember I did a nursing

49:32

video with Wesley, like teaching people how

49:35

to breastfeed and making more activities. Wesley

49:38

and Mira were two maybe when

49:40

we started? Yeah,

49:42

yeah. And I

49:44

know both of us have had journeys

49:46

that we don't necessarily

49:48

share in public because that is our children and

49:51

that is their right as

49:53

individuals and to keep separate. But I think

49:55

one of the things that definitely comes up

49:57

for me is that I think that's a

49:59

really important thing. is the idea of how

50:02

easily I was sucked into orthorexia

50:06

and eating disorders, disordered eating as a

50:08

result of this diet culture and really

50:12

thinking, genuinely thinking that

50:14

I was focusing on

50:16

my health. I don't know how many times you and I

50:19

would say things like, this

50:21

is not what it

50:23

was because it's sustainable, it's lifestyle and

50:25

like it wasn't. For me, it was

50:28

very much rooted in orthorexia. It was very much

50:30

rooted in ulcera food, in

50:34

fat phobia, like not wanting

50:36

to be fat. And I

50:38

definitely went from, I've talked in the

50:41

show before, being bulimic as a teenager,

50:43

to really what was

50:46

atypical anorexia. I remember there were

50:48

many days where I missed many

50:50

meals in order to see

50:52

a certain number on a scale. And

50:54

I knew that my body wasn't suggesting

50:56

things and I continued to eat

50:59

that eating pattern because it

51:01

was supporting an aesthetic that

51:03

I wanted or a number in a scale that I

51:05

wanted. And it's hard now being

51:07

a person who is in a larger body

51:09

and trying to tell my kids to have

51:11

confidence in their own skin because they recognize

51:13

part of them is like, well, I don't

51:16

wanna end up like you. But

51:18

also knowing that that's part of the

51:20

judgment of the world, right? As

51:23

we've talked about this amount

51:26

that goes into health that we do not

51:28

have control over, that myself,

51:31

my parents, my grandparents, all being

51:33

overweight means that my children are

51:35

not predisposed to be small petite

51:38

people. That's not their

51:41

genetic lottery. So there's part

51:43

of me as like, what can we as

51:45

parents do as

51:48

a learned lesson from the experience

51:51

that we had with falling

51:54

into these diet traps, whatever they might

51:57

be, to help support our

51:59

children? How are you doing that with your girls?

52:02

Yeah, I think it there's

52:05

so many different moving parts to that because

52:09

We do all have gluten

52:11

sensitivity and Mira does have

52:14

dairy sensitivity as well So

52:17

there is still this piece

52:19

of like a food we need to avoid

52:22

but I'm really trying to to First

52:26

of all, I'm cooking so many different types of

52:28

foods now and I'm really trying to expand our

52:30

palates expand the diversity foods

52:32

that we're eating and reintroduce

52:35

my kids to foods that if

52:38

I had been on a different journey, they would have been

52:40

eating this whole time and I

52:43

think modeling is always so important

52:45

right modeling a more

52:50

I don't want to say healthy relationship with food because that

52:52

is Not really it.

52:54

Do you know what I mean? Like like

52:57

I don't want to say healthy when

52:59

you're trying to say like right get

53:01

away from that connection to food Yeah,

53:03

but it's also weird to say relationship

53:05

because I don't want to have a relationship with food

53:08

Like that's not what we're doing here food.

53:10

You're an inanimate object Like there is nothing

53:12

I might as well have a relationship with

53:14

a rock in my backyard I think you

53:16

do have some rocks in you actually Yeah,

53:19

that was a really bad example because I do

53:21

have favorite rocks so Okay,

53:24

fine. No, I think what I one of

53:26

the big rules that we have changed but

53:29

I think this is a really good example is There's

53:33

no more criteria for

53:36

dessert You are allowed

53:38

to not finish your dinner To

53:41

save room for dessert in our house now

53:44

and for a long long long time You had

53:46

to finish your plate in

53:48

order to earn dessert Dessert

53:51

does not get earned in this house

53:53

anymore Dessert is just

53:55

a thing that sometimes we have and

53:57

it's wonderful when we do actually frequently

54:00

have and it's wonderful

54:02

when we do. And if

54:04

my kids want to eat their dessert

54:06

first, if they're really not

54:08

hungry, they only have room for dessert, okay that's

54:11

fine. Let's hope that's happening frequently. We'll have a

54:13

look at what the eating patterns are that are

54:15

contributing to that and making sure that overall diet

54:17

quality is high. But I think

54:19

that's the best example of how my

54:22

approach has changed. I

54:24

try to have no food, a bad

54:28

food or a special

54:30

food that you have to

54:32

earn. We don't earn food

54:34

and we're still

54:36

we still eat seafood

54:39

several times a week. We still eat tons of

54:41

fruits and vegetables. We're eating a lot more legumes

54:43

now. We eat more whole grains now. But

54:46

we still eat a very whole

54:48

foods focused diet. But there's

54:51

no like, oh no, candy is

54:53

a special treat so we'll only have candy once

54:55

in a while. Like you know

54:57

what, candy can be in the house all the time. And

54:59

so I've really tried to help my kids learn. They don't

55:04

feel good if they eat an

55:06

entire bag of Reese's peanut butter

55:08

cups. That doesn't feel good.

55:10

Adults been learning that one repeatedly lately.

55:13

I mean, Wesleyo's not learned that yet

55:15

either. Yeah, there's something about

55:17

being a 17. I just want

55:19

to call out that for me, at least as a

55:21

parent, is part of that pendulum swing in the opposite

55:23

direction. I was like, okay, let's talk

55:25

about the fact that you felt the need you had

55:28

to hide this. Instead, let's talk about

55:30

what happened, right? Like to

55:32

me, that's where my parenting goes. It's like,

55:34

I'm sorry that you felt the needs that

55:37

you couldn't express

55:39

your needs versus

55:43

the candy is the problem. Because it's

55:45

not, it's the relationship that I set

55:47

up about food. It's

55:50

very much an intuitive eating approach to

55:53

if you, if that's the food you

55:55

want, like have as much of it

55:57

as you want. Eventually, that food loses

55:59

that allure and I'm letting

56:01

myself go through that. I'm letting my

56:03

kids go through that and

56:06

I still I'm

56:08

still cooking 99.9999999% of our meals at

56:10

home. We still eat very high quality diets but

56:16

I think there's I we just have a

56:19

like I'm really trying to get away from

56:21

any sort of

56:23

sense of I can't eat that food

56:25

right because when we don't allow ourselves

56:27

foods in this research the psychology

56:30

research shows this right we fixate

56:32

on it we crave it we and

56:34

though we obsess over it and those

56:36

obsessions they magnify and as somebody who

56:38

like yeah absolutely had orthorexia

56:41

and still binge eating disorder I really

56:43

still had binge eating disorder that whole

56:45

time. I know I said I never

56:47

binge anymore but I totally did

56:49

I just didn't binge on pizza I

56:51

was still binging but on right

56:54

like allowed but

56:56

I still had that overeating

56:58

compulsion behavior and it's

57:00

really only been like a

57:02

lot of therapy lately that's really helped

57:04

me get to the other

57:07

side I don't even want to necessarily claim

57:09

that I'm other side slightly in

57:11

the middle of the parabola let's say. You're

57:14

living. We're getting there I have more strategies

57:17

now than I had before I think is really

57:19

what it is and so a huge

57:22

part of our journey is really like

57:25

trying to not have

57:27

any food be able

57:29

to yell my name from across the

57:31

room right like not give any food

57:34

that power and doing

57:36

that means that if I go than

57:40

Reese's Peanut Butter Cup I don't know why this is

57:42

my go-to example right now sounds really good

57:44

right now I'm gonna go have one actually

57:46

I really want two actually I really want three that's

57:49

part of the journey for

57:51

me and I

57:53

think and I think I've

57:55

like I've been on that part of this journey for a

57:58

couple of years now like this. This

58:01

is, I'm in a place where I

58:03

have a much better sense of when

58:06

I'm full. I have a

58:08

much, like I don't, I

58:11

haven't been in a very long time. And

58:13

I think

58:15

that only came out of knowing

58:18

that I needed to get over this

58:21

idea of needing to

58:23

earn a food or a food

58:25

being bad, so I shouldn't eat it. And

58:27

really knowing that I needed to challenge that

58:29

in my own brain and realizing that

58:33

I needed, I needed therapy to really like help

58:35

me work through a lot of that because

58:37

so much of it is like from my

58:40

early childhood and that that's

58:42

been this like side

58:44

project through this whole time. And

58:46

you can see the influence of all

58:48

that psychology in how I communicate

58:51

new to VOR in the stories

58:53

that I tell in the book, in

58:55

how I'm building the website. You can see

58:57

like the work of

59:00

recovering from, or

59:03

at least working to recover from eating disorder and

59:06

working to change what

59:10

I accidentally taught my kids that I didn't

59:12

realize I was teaching them while

59:14

I still have some influence. We're so

59:17

close, right? Like Adele is

59:19

a junior, so we're doing college.

59:22

We're doing a college tour. I'm not traveling

59:24

for these colleges. Like this is, we did

59:26

a college tour, but like we're, she's talking

59:28

about colleges and she's going to be out of

59:31

the house in a year and

59:33

a half. And, and

59:35

so I'm, I hope that

59:37

these are the lessons and the

59:39

shift back to some kind of

59:41

middle ground and being able to

59:43

be open to that, I hope

59:45

actually that lesson, because I feel

59:48

like that's translatable to so many

59:50

parts in life being open to new information and

59:52

being open to change our behaviors because of that new

59:54

information. I'm hoping that's what

59:56

sticks with them and not I need

59:59

to hide. my Reese's Peanut Butter Cups

1:00:01

and then eat the whole bag after

1:00:03

everyone's in bed. I hope

1:00:05

that, I don't think that's what

1:00:08

will stick. I think what will

1:00:10

stick is it's okay to

1:00:12

have Reese's Peanut Butter Cups in the house and

1:00:16

it's okay to sometimes eat more than I intended

1:00:19

to and not feel that great and that's fine.

1:00:21

That doesn't impact how

1:00:25

I choose foods for long-term health. That's

1:00:27

just another part of, another thing

1:00:30

I'm getting from food is joy and maybe a slightly upset

1:00:32

stomach but for sort of a whole lot of joy. Yeah,

1:00:36

sometimes you make a choice to experience the

1:00:38

joy knowing that you're going to have a

1:00:40

lot of time. I have really

1:00:42

enjoyed reintroducing Reese's Peanut Butter Cups in my

1:00:44

life and that has been

1:00:46

a whole experience to enjoy the

1:00:48

tingle of spice

1:00:51

for the first time in a long time and

1:00:53

to not have that fear that you

1:00:55

talked about and I think

1:00:57

that's really important as people are on

1:01:00

this journey is to own and recognize that

1:01:02

there is a lot of psychology at play.

1:01:04

There's a lot of fear and

1:01:07

stress and so many things that go

1:01:09

into what a lot of

1:01:11

us have put on our diet on the foods

1:01:13

that we're eating for so long and I

1:01:16

feel like that was a kind of easy place

1:01:18

for me to put my feelings for a really

1:01:20

long time instead of living in

1:01:22

and feeling those feelings. So I love

1:01:24

that we're helping our

1:01:26

children along that journey. I feel exactly as

1:01:28

you do like, what did I

1:01:30

do? And I'm also really

1:01:33

grateful that I

1:01:35

caught myself midway through with the

1:01:37

recognition of this

1:01:39

isn't the lesson that I want to teach my

1:01:42

kids. I was wrong. I'm

1:01:44

sorry. And I owe

1:01:46

that to all the kids. I was

1:01:48

wrong and I'm sorry. And

1:01:52

now we're going to try to course

1:01:54

correct and I recognize it's going to be difficult

1:01:56

for everybody. So that's that. How are

1:01:58

your girls? I want to leave on something. more positive.

1:02:00

Tell us about your family, your garden, but your

1:02:02

favorite rock. Tell us about your faith. So

1:02:05

my, I think, I think being a

1:02:07

teenage girl is really changing and

1:02:10

my kids are navigating it extremely

1:02:12

well, but not without

1:02:14

road bumps. So they're

1:02:16

both really, okay, they're

1:02:19

really clearly growing into the people that they

1:02:21

will become. I sometimes use

1:02:23

that passive aggressively. When they're

1:02:25

being fast, they say, it's so wonderful to watch you

1:02:28

grow into the person that you're becoming, but

1:02:30

it really earnestly, it really

1:02:32

is. It really is seeing their, the

1:02:36

causes that they care about, their

1:02:39

minds. Mira just told me that she

1:02:41

thinks she maybe wants to be an

1:02:43

economist. Where did that come from? So

1:02:45

Adele's doing crazy. Well, Adele

1:02:47

has discovered that she loves organic

1:02:50

chemistry and that's what she wants

1:02:52

to do. So also where

1:02:54

did that come from? She's doing super

1:02:56

well. She's in a magnet high school,

1:02:58

a STEM magnet program. She's doing super

1:03:00

well. Mira, when she goes to high

1:03:03

school next year, she just got accepted

1:03:05

into an international baccalaureate program. So they're

1:03:07

doing super well. Adele's got

1:03:10

a girlfriend. They've been dating for

1:03:13

nine months. It's adorable. I love

1:03:15

it. And I love her girlfriend.

1:03:17

So that's, it's just, it's lovely.

1:03:20

Mira's not allowed to date until high school,

1:03:22

but her best friend and Mira, they're planning

1:03:25

on dating. I don't know if that will

1:03:27

actually happen, but they've been planning this for

1:03:29

like two years. They're already a couple, but they're

1:03:31

just telling you they're just friends. Right. I

1:03:33

mean, they do flirt together,

1:03:35

which is slightly uncomfortable for

1:03:37

me. But yeah, both

1:03:40

of my children are very

1:03:43

secure in their identities

1:03:45

and thriving at school

1:03:48

and certainly being

1:03:51

forced to develop some

1:03:54

resilience skills and some strategies

1:03:56

for navigating mental health challenges.

1:04:00

And it is the common

1:04:02

experience now for especially teenage

1:04:04

females. And

1:04:06

yeah, they're still working on her

1:04:09

book. Mira just wrote one that

1:04:11

I'm currently editing. So they're both

1:04:13

avid and very talented writers. Mira

1:04:16

still plays piano and so I get to wake

1:04:18

up to the sounds of Chopin in the mornings,

1:04:20

which is delightful. So yeah,

1:04:23

they're doing really well. Being a teenage girl is

1:04:26

tough. So

1:04:28

they're also facing a lot of challenges. I

1:04:31

think being an adolescent in general, it's

1:04:34

the time of a

1:04:36

lot of emotions and not

1:04:39

fully integrated cerebrum. So there's

1:04:42

a lot going on for them. I

1:04:45

love hearing you talking for those who are listening.

1:04:47

I hope you've heard it. It's their choice to

1:04:49

just light up when you're talking about your girls. And

1:04:53

I think also for me, as the

1:04:55

parent of a teenager, I have a lot

1:04:57

of compassion for the fact that

1:05:00

we did not grow up in the age of

1:05:02

smartphones and social media. And

1:05:06

we also did not have a

1:05:08

global pandemic during our last years.

1:05:11

And I hope that for

1:05:13

listeners, if you don't have a teenager

1:05:15

right now, or even like a

1:05:18

pre-teen type kid, have

1:05:20

compassion for those that are around

1:05:22

you when you see them cranky

1:05:25

in public or your sister's kid

1:05:27

just isn't behaving the way that you

1:05:29

think that they ought to. Like

1:05:31

just recognize that there is so much

1:05:35

more complexity to what is

1:05:37

happening with that

1:05:39

age group than what's happening

1:05:42

to us at that time. And

1:05:45

I know because you spoke of it, like being

1:05:48

a teenager is hard the way that

1:05:50

our brain chemistry and our hormones and

1:05:52

learning how to be independent but still

1:05:54

feeling very much like a child but

1:05:56

in an adult body. Like there's so

1:05:58

much that happens. that is complex

1:06:02

to add social media

1:06:04

and global pandemic on top just

1:06:07

feel so deeply for these kids

1:06:09

for how

1:06:11

that will affect their overall life. And

1:06:14

yeah, so I'm thrilled to hear that everyone

1:06:16

is doing well. Is your garden

1:06:18

thriving? Did you give up? It is

1:06:20

no. So I've been actually every year

1:06:22

adding another garden bed and my plan

1:06:25

is to keep doing that until it's

1:06:27

too much to maintain. So

1:06:29

last summer, we

1:06:31

probably got half of

1:06:34

our fruits and vegetables from the garden, like

1:06:36

all summer and I'm still like I thought

1:06:38

zucchini I'm going to make zucchini fritters for

1:06:41

dinner tonight. I thought zucchini from the freezer

1:06:43

that was from my garden over the summer. So I still have

1:06:45

stuff in the freezer that I'm like, Oh, you need to get

1:06:47

through this before all of these things

1:06:49

grow again. Before we go.

1:06:51

Yeah. So yeah, this winter,

1:06:53

like even right now, I've had a

1:06:55

salad bed go through all winter.

1:06:58

I think we really lucked out. We had a pretty

1:07:01

mild winter other than five, five days there in

1:07:03

the middle in which case I worked so hard to

1:07:05

keep my veg my salad bed going and I succeeded.

1:07:07

So it was great. But yeah, we've been

1:07:09

getting still like three or four

1:07:11

like dinner salads for the four of us

1:07:14

a week from my vegetable

1:07:16

garden. So it's going strong

1:07:18

and I haven't, I

1:07:21

think if anything, my

1:07:23

enjoyment of it just has

1:07:25

kept increasing. Every afternoon,

1:07:28

usually around this time I go

1:07:31

out into the backyard for 10 minutes. So sometimes

1:07:33

I just sit there with a

1:07:35

cup of tea or something and enjoy

1:07:37

the sun. Sometimes I pull a couple

1:07:40

of weeds. Sometimes I throw a couple

1:07:42

of seeds somewhere. So sometimes I'm doing a job

1:07:44

at sometimes I'm just enjoying it or seeing what's

1:07:46

ready to pick. And that, that

1:07:48

part of my routine, it's just my,

1:07:50

like my little afternoon

1:07:52

break that resets me

1:07:54

and like sometimes gets me through

1:07:57

the rest of the day. And

1:07:59

then once I'm ready, I'm ready. months-ish. There's like

1:08:01

a half day on the

1:08:03

weekend that is entirely spent turning

1:08:05

over a bed or turning

1:08:07

over compost or like doing some kind

1:08:09

of big job. But honestly, I feel

1:08:12

like my favorite hobby of all the

1:08:14

hobbies is digging

1:08:16

holes. I don't think

1:08:18

I am happier. Okay,

1:08:20

doing the cha-cha slide with a bunch

1:08:22

of little kids about equal status to

1:08:24

digging holes in terms of like the

1:08:27

things that make me happy

1:08:29

all the way down. All every single layer.

1:08:32

Those are the two things that just that's

1:08:34

my happy place. And so yeah any

1:08:37

excuse to dig a hole in the dirt. That's lovely.

1:08:39

And little library fell

1:08:41

over because we didn't cement

1:08:43

it. Matt thought it would

1:08:46

be fine and it wasn't and so we need a

1:08:48

hole digger. Okay,

1:08:51

okay. Now you have motivation. Now I do.

1:08:54

I also got a composter for Christmas and

1:08:58

we put food scraps in it and it

1:09:00

turns it into soil and Matt's addicted. He's

1:09:02

obsessed. I have one.

1:09:04

He puts the composted soil on her house

1:09:06

plants and then do you know what happens? The

1:09:10

dogs eat the soil of the house. Yep,

1:09:14

so. I'm new rule the

1:09:16

composted soil must go outside.

1:09:18

I am so tired of

1:09:20

pulling the dogs off of

1:09:22

the soil of the house. Yeah, unfortunately it

1:09:26

doesn't matter whether it's like the

1:09:28

kitchen compost made in my little

1:09:30

cool kitchen composter or if

1:09:33

I buy compost or if it's the

1:09:35

compost from the compost bins. All composts

1:09:37

are equally as delicious apparently to dogs.

1:09:40

I do not have a solution for that one. At

1:09:44

least I know it's quality whatever

1:09:46

because their noses are telling them it is

1:09:48

worthy of eating. Well

1:09:51

Sarah it has been wonderful

1:09:53

to see and connect with you again.

1:09:56

I know our OG listeners are just feeling that

1:09:58

breath of fresh air. Thank you so much. for

1:10:00

coming and as a reminder listeners, you

1:10:03

can catch up with Sarah on nutri-4.com

1:10:06

and on social, all

1:10:09

the places at Dr. Sarah Ballentine

1:10:11

and your Nutri-4 book

1:10:13

is coming out in

1:10:15

May. Yeah, May 14th. Do

1:10:18

you wanna share with sisters before you go? New

1:10:20

book comes out May 14th. It's available

1:10:22

now for pre-order. It

1:10:24

is the best book I've ever written by a

1:10:26

bajillion miles. It makes me a little bit embarrassed

1:10:28

to admit that I've written previous books because this

1:10:30

book is so good. It

1:10:33

is interweaving the science

1:10:36

with the psychology with

1:10:39

historical anecdotes

1:10:42

and like really interesting, like

1:10:44

guess what they did in this study? This

1:10:47

is so cool. Like, so it's much more

1:10:49

like storytelling. It's all wrapped up

1:10:51

in a narrative and it is, I just

1:10:53

read the audio book. Do we did the

1:10:55

recording of that last week? So like, I

1:10:58

just got to read my whole book out

1:11:00

loud like five times because that's

1:11:02

how audio book recordings work, but

1:11:04

it's so good. It's such a good book. I'm

1:11:06

just saying, you will love this book. No matter

1:11:08

where you are in your journey of

1:11:11

health, wellness, anti-diet, diet,

1:11:14

anywhere in that spectrum, this

1:11:16

book really straddles that world between diet and

1:11:18

anti-diet and reflects all

1:11:21

of the stuff that we've been talking about for the

1:11:23

last hour. And pre-order

1:11:25

campaign is live. If

1:11:27

you go to neutralboard.com/book,

1:11:31

I'm offering a hundred dollars of

1:11:33

digital resources as a

1:11:35

bonus for your pre-order. And my

1:11:37

team and I've been planning these resources for

1:11:40

longer than I started working on

1:11:42

the book. So like over two years. And

1:11:45

I'm so proud of it because it's

1:11:48

a collection of 14 eBooks

1:11:51

that compliment the book. So

1:11:54

there's not very little like overlap, like things

1:11:56

that you get in both places. And it

1:11:58

just creates the... this

1:12:00

much wider, like

1:12:02

the breadth of resource is

1:12:05

just so exciting. And

1:12:07

so, yeah, so like also I'll bribe

1:12:09

you for your pre-order. So make sure

1:12:11

you check that out. And you can pre-order

1:12:14

the book in any format. If you want

1:12:16

to listen to me reading my own book

1:12:18

for the audiobook, which I highly encourage

1:12:20

because I know I did a good job of it,

1:12:22

yeah, go ahead. You can pre-order the audio version,

1:12:25

the ebook version for whatever the

1:12:27

places like Kindle or pre-order from

1:12:30

your local independent bookstores. And

1:12:32

go claim those pre-order bonuses

1:12:35

because they're amazing and you should have

1:12:37

them. Thank you so

1:12:39

much for coming back. And listeners,

1:12:41

as always, we appreciate your willingness to be

1:12:44

open to grow through your own personal changes,

1:12:46

as you can see. Hopefully, Sarah and

1:12:48

I are leading the path, walking

1:12:50

the walk for you. We recognize no, it is

1:12:52

perfect, but in listening, learning, and unlearning,

1:12:55

we can choose to become better versions of

1:12:57

ourselves for ourselves. We

1:12:59

will be back on Friday with a

1:13:01

regular episode for you. And listeners, thank

1:13:03

you so much for tuning in. We

1:13:15

are Allie and Erica, certified integrative nutrition

1:13:17

health coaches in gut and hormone

1:13:19

health and the hosts of the

1:13:22

podcast Courageous Wellness. We are committed

1:13:24

to de-stigmatizing conversations in the wellness

1:13:26

space and celebrate the experiences and

1:13:28

lessons of our guests in pursuit

1:13:30

of physical, emotional, and spiritual wellness.

1:13:32

Listen to Courageous Wellness wherever you

1:13:35

get your podcasts with fresh episodes

1:13:37

every Wednesday.