Holly Leever is a licensed acupuncturist, herbalist, Arvigo abdominal massage therapist and Fertility Awareness Method educator. She works with women to optimize their menstrual cycles and their fertility. She founded her practice, Rosebud Wellness in 2014, and works with clients locally in Ojai, CA and virtually all over the world. When Holly isn’t solving period problems, she is spending time with her sweet daughter, practicing yoga, gardening or cooking.   Website - rosebudwellness.com IG - https://www.instagram.com/rosebud_wellness/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/hollyrosebudwellness Free FAM Video - https://rosebudwellness.com/opt-in-free-training-how-to-track-and-chart-your-cycle-to-support-your-body-for-optimal-health-and-fertility Holly’s Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fertile-womb-natural-fertility-optimization/id1568908543   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   For Fertility Resources: https://www.thewholesomelotusfertility.com/fertilityresources   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/       Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Holly.   Holly Leever (00:02) Thank you so much, Michelle. I'm really excited to be here.   Michelle (00:05) I'm excited to have a fellow acupuncturist here. It's always fun talking   to my   Holly Leever (00:09) It is   Michelle (00:10) my acupuncture family.   Holly Leever (00:10) Yes. Yeah.   Michelle (00:12) Awesome. So give us a little background on yourself and what got you into women's health specifically, infertility,   acupuncture.   Holly Leever (00:20) so it's a long and winding road, like all of our stories, right? But I started studying acupuncture when I was pretty young. I was just naturally really interested in yoga and holistic health and nutrition. It just kind of came out of the womb that way for some reason. And I went to acupuncture school and I learned about how hormonal birth control...   could potentially be impacting some of the issues that I was experiencing at the time. And when you're really young, you can get away with a lot. And so I didn't feel terrible, but I hadn't had a natural period. I probably had three in my whole life at that point and I was 24. So I started, yeah.   Michelle (01:10) Wait, so give us a background. So when did you first get your period? When did you first start and then when did you get on the birth control pill?   Holly Leever (01:18) Yeah, so that's the tricky part, the annoying part, is that I got my first period when I was 14, and I was already on birth control by the time I was 15. So I don't remember exactly how many months, and I would only get it every three months. So I went to the gynecologist and I was like, oh, is that, I mean, I had enough of an awareness to know that it was supposed to happen every month at the time, and they were just like, oh, that's really...   Michelle (01:29) Uh.   Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (01:46) problematic and here you can just have the birth control pill to regulate your cycle, of course. And I did have pretty significant period pain too. I think it was just young bodies don't just start menstruating perfectly right away and having significant period pain I think also was partially related to my diet at the time. I grew up really just eating   Michelle (02:00) Yeah.   Holly Leever (02:10) Total crap food, just convenience foods, only snacky kind of things, really had no guidance around nutrition at all. And I think the period pain was partially related to that, and also just being young and my body doing something new for the first time. I did become sexually active really early too, at 15. And so I do think it was maybe helpful that I didn't get pregnant when I was 15 years old. And...   Michelle (02:36) Yeah.   Holly Leever (02:38) I wish that I had a little bit more education about what it was actually doing to my body. I had a lot of emotional struggles as a teenager and who knows if that's just being a teenager, how that manifested for me or how much of it was related to synthetic hormone exposure at such a young age. And so then I developed a really severe eating disorder during the end of high school, really through college. So that was part of...   Even the times, sometimes I would stop taking birth control within that nine year timeframe of from 15 to 24. Sometimes I would stop taking it if I wasn't in a relationship and I really just never would have a period. So it was almost like that part of me was completely removed from my experience of being in a female body. So then when I went to acupuncture school, as I'm sure you know, and maybe a lot of your listeners do too, that...   it's a really central piece of understanding a female's overall health and wellbeing is what their period looks like. We were talking about the color of the blood and how frequently it comes. And I mean, there are so much more that I know about it now as a fertility awareness method educator, but even that little seed of women's period is really important for assessing their health. I was sort of like, oh.   I guess I'm completely missing that whole part of the equation of, you know, being able to really understand this medicine. And so I stopped taking the pill really immediately after that I found that out. I remember that it was, I started school in September and then by October, November, I stopped taking it, just completely stopped taking it and never, and have not taken it since.   But then I didn't have my period for a few years after I stopped taking it because I was still struggling with my eating disorder. And one of the things that I find really interesting about eating disorders and under nutrition is that people think sort of like you have to have this like raging, horrible eating disorder, which at times I really did. I was very severely anorexic at times.   Michelle (04:34) Mm hmm.   Holly Leever (04:53) And at other times, not so much. Like you could look at me and think like, oh, that looks like just like a healthy woman. You wouldn't really think she's, you know, nutrient depleted, but it was for me, always this relationship with food, you know, not prioritizing optimal nutrition was sort of the issue for me. So it would be, maybe my weight would look okay.   Michelle (05:19) Right.   Holly Leever (05:22) but I wasn't getting in the amount of protein and fat and carbohydrate structure and having regular meals and things like that. That was really the issue for me. So a lot of my time through acupuncture school, that four years that I was in acupuncture school was spent trying to figure that out. And sometimes I would get a period and I'd be like, oh, what was like the perfect cocktail of things that I did that made that happen? And it was just...   So, I mean, now to me, it's so obvious. It was that I let go of the reins a little bit and ate a little bit more. And then I would just be like, oh my God, that was too much. And I would go too far and freak out. And then I would lose my period again. So it's just kind of very intermittently getting it here and there. Then I finally went into residential treatment center a few times for my eating disorder. And that was the catalyst really for...   Michelle (05:59) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (06:20) being able to kick it finally. And it wasn't until I was 32, so not terribly long ago, that I started learning the fertility awareness method because I had been single for a lot of my life. I think anybody that has struggled with an eating disorder understands that it's very isolating experience that you kind of don't wanna date. You don't want anybody to look at or touch your body. And I was feeling interested in maybe   Like, can I have children and can I have a family? I'm 32, like, what am I doing with my life? And although I didn't have a partner at the time, I was kind of getting curious about my fertility and if I had kind of destroyed my body at that point, you know, it's like, has it been too long? And so for anybody that has struggled with hypothalamic amenorrhea, which really is what that is, whether it's an eating disorder or if it's just disordered.   or under eating or over exercise, stress, like some combination of those things. Anybody that has had that experience, especially if it's been for a significant amount of time, which for me, it's kind of like 10 to 15 years, like most of my adult life was spent not menstruating. And then to fast forward to the end of my story, I do have a daughter. So, when I was 32, I was in this place of...   Michelle (07:18) Right.   Holly Leever (07:45) I had just gotten out of my most recent residential stay. Every time I would go, I would get my period back. It was very obviously nutritionally related. So we can take all these teas and even getting acupuncture. I got so much acupuncture. I was on so many herbal formulas throughout acupuncture school and I just needed to eat more. And they would always say that to me. And you're only able to receive and really integrate.   Michelle (07:51) Mm-hmm. Wow.   Holly Leever (08:14) what's being recommended to you when it's the right time for you or whatever. So it is what it is, but that was really what my system needed. And so when I was 32 is really when a big transformation happened in my life where I really kicked my eating disorder. It's not something that you just all of a sudden are cured from, but that was a really pivotal time where I haven't really looked back.   Michelle (08:18) Yeah.   Holly Leever (08:44) Um, since that it's only kind of been getting better since then. And I started learning the fertility awareness method with my teacher, Lisa Hendricks and Jack. So she has, she hasn't made she, maybe she's been on this podcast. I don't know. I think you've been on hers. I know too. Um, but yeah, fertility Friday is an awesome podcast for anybody out there. I it's she's really, oh, that's so. Yeah.   Michelle (08:54) Love her. Yes, yeah.   It inspired me to start mine, my podcast. Oh yeah, I love her. I got so much information from her podcast. It was just, she's such a wealth of knowledge.   Holly Leever (09:14) She... And that podcast is the tip of the iceberg in terms of what that woman knows. It's really, really amazing. And yeah, so I started to study with her really just personally at first. I was like, okay, I want to be in a relationship and I don't want to accidentally get pregnant and I don't ever want to go back on birth control. So like, what do I do?   Michelle (09:22) I know.   Holly Leever (09:41) And so I started learning about the fertility awareness method from her. And I took her fertility awareness mastery program where you can, you know, she had two groups at the time. I'm not sure how she structures it now, but one was like the pregnancy prevention group and the other was the conception group. So I was in the pregnancy prevention group and was just learning so much about. How my body worked and you know, what it meant.   that my period would just go missing and also gave me a lot of insight into sort of like catching myself before I go too far. I think anybody that has had an experience with an eating disorder or being underweight, there's this tendency that even now I still have to be really conscious of making sure that I'm getting like...   planning meals and like really prioritizing that because my tendency is still to under eat because it was so ingrained in me for such a long period of time. So for example, in the fertility awareness method, now I can see like if my temperatures start to get a little below what's more optimal or like if my mucus pattern is a little bit different because I've learned all of these like subtle details of learning how to read.   Michelle (10:46) Hmm.   Holly Leever (11:03) what's going on with my fertility. It really opened up a whole other space of just in the hypothalamic amenorrhea space, which is actually, it seems kind of like it's becoming more of a hot topic thing these days where people are like actually specializing in just hypothalamic amenorrhea. A lot of times the focus is on the period. It's like we're getting the period back, but it's sometimes missing.   that actually you can't even have a period if it's not preceded by ovulation. And if we're not tracking ovulation with mucus and basal body temperature, potentially LH strips or OPKs, I use those in my practice too sometimes, cervical position. If we're not tracking all of these things, we can be having bleeds even at regular intervals, which I do think this is part of what was happening to me. I'd have these like random bleeds where I'd be like,   what did I do right this time that I had that random bleed? It may have been an ovulatory. So all that means just for, I know you know what it means, but for anybody that's listening, if you don't know, it just basically means that you are bleeding, but it hasn't been preceded by an ovulatory phase, basically. So you didn't actually ovulate. Your estrogen levels just built up enough to build up an endometrial lining, and then it's just being...   shed, but it is not an indication that your body's actually going through a very health promoting process of ovulation before that. So anyway, that was kind of my basic story into learning fertility awareness. And now, several years later, I had actually started...   working with it a little bit with my clients. I was trying to have them do temperature and track their mucus. And what I was noticing is that you can read from a textbook. And I even learned from Lisa, I learned sort of like the basics and I learned how my body works. But it's really different to learn about the basics from a book and other like online resources. And then also just learning about your own body and being able to apply that in working.   with actual patients because what I have found in my practice is that many of them don't follow and including me, I definitely have never followed what's in the textbook. So I've never ovulated on day 14. I've never had a 28 day or 30. Maybe the shortest cycle I've ever had is 30 days and that was like miraculous. So yeah, I mean, I will say that I was feeling somewhat limited and then Lisa created this.   Michelle (13:22) Yeah.   Mm-hmm   Holly Leever (13:49) program for practitioners called the fertility awareness mastery mentorship. So it's different from just the, like for women to learn about their own cycles. It's a practitioner program for women that want to learn or not. Yeah, it is women only, but for women that want to learn how to incorporate it into their existing women's healthcare practice.   And I actually wanted to do it the first year that she launched it, but I had just had my daughter. So that goes back to my personal stories that I did end up meeting my daughter's dad and I did get pregnant and had a healthy pregnancy after 10 to 15 years of amenorrhea and thinking that my body was probably broken.   being told by doctors that my body was probably going to be broken or I was going to need fertility drugs and things like that. I didn't do anything other than optimize my nutrition. Even now with how much I've learned from Lisa and so many other resources since that time, which was she's going to be four next month.   there are things I would have done differently in terms of optimizing nutrition and lifestyle and other things that maybe I think could have made it even more wonderful. But I had a really healthy pregnancy, really wonderful birth at home. And yeah, I'm just really amazed by the human body that when you give it what it needs, it will perform.   I don't know, perform isn't really the right word, but function optimally. And fertility is part of optimal function for women, whether they want to get pregnant or not. I mostly work with women that want to get pregnant. So that's sort of the lens in which I see everything. Yeah.   Michelle (15:36) Yeah.   Me too. But yeah, I mean that I always say it's just a reflection of overall health. If it doesn't have the resources or if it's at a deficit, it's going to, you know, it's not going to give you what you want or it's not going to be functioning optimally and it's definitely not going to prioritize reproductive health. That's for sure. So that's, and a lot of what you're saying is pretty much my history. I mean, I had the same thing like three months cycles.   Holly Leever (16:08) Okay.   Michelle (16:16) And this is what I, you know, for a couple of years, and then I went to the doctor, he put me on the birth control pill and it was just like on and off, on and on and off. Um, there was a time where I also under eight, I was in college and I guess I probably did. I mean, I never really called it that, but I had a bit of an eating disorder myself. There were times where I was like, I want to, you know, look really thin. Like this next person that just is genetically a lot thinner build than I am.   And it was kind of like this thing I just got in my head. And so for a little while, I mean, it was on and off for me, but it definitely impacted my hormones. It was all over the place. So.   Holly Leever (16:54) I mean, even what has been normalized in our culture, like in, I remember magazines when I, I don't know what it kind of trashes in there these days, but I actually was reading them when I was in high school or whatever. And they would talk about like 1200 calorie diets. That's an eating disorder. If I eat that amount of calories, I'm very, very underweight. I mean, maybe somebody could do that if they're like four feet tall or something, but.   Michelle (17:12) Yeah.   Yeah, no, I mean, we need the   nutrients for sure. I mean, that's what it is. It really comes down to that. It comes down to energy. And so it's not even about eating, it's about what you're eating. Because as we know, just like a chi in the body, food has chi as well. And so there's some food that's kind of very low chi, very low energy or vitality, let's say.   Holly Leever (17:25) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (17:45) and versus live whole foods which are way more nourishing and nutrient dense for the body. So those are all important aspects. But as you were talking, you know, and this is something that I've thought about recently, and it's not something that's often talked about, but we're in the fertility world. And do you tend to see, because there's such like, there are a lot of rules, you know, you have to like be, you know, avoid   toxins and you have to eat certain foods and you have to do this and that and the other. And I feel like if you have a tendency or have any history with eating disorder or some sense of obsessive compulsion for your life, it can trigger that. Being on the fertility journey and focusing, even if you're trying quote unquote naturally, it can trigger that feeling. And that can be very...   stressful on top of like everything else.   Holly Leever (18:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, man, this is something I think about pretty much every day. Because, yeah, my experience in residential treatment for my eating disorder was very much based on, I guess, conventional guidelines of optimal nutrition, like low fat and pretty carb heavy.   and just kind of, and very weight goal based. And at the time, I think that was what I needed. I needed to just like know rules and they would have things like fun foods and there's a perspective of choosing relationship with other people over your eating disorder. So for example, if your friends want to go out for ice cream and you're like, oh no, I'm like too, I mean, this is...   very much something that I experienced, like totally not gonna go to that. I do not wanna eat ice cream or, you know, there were times that I would go and just not eat it or whatever. And so the choosing relationship was something that really resonated with me. And now I think about a lot too, with a young daughter of how I want to model things for her. And so I will say that my own approach to food, like for myself,   Michelle (20:05) Yeah.   Holly Leever (20:11) now is one of really trying to get optimal nutrition in when it's available to me, and also not to demonize anything primarily for her. And yeah, and also for her relationship with other people and knowing that, you know, if a friend gives you something, even if it's not like the healthiest thing ever.   that you know that your body is strong because it's mostly exposed to really nutrient dense foods. And the tricky part about that, because when I was in treatment, it was definitely like, this is what I'm doing right now. I'm like recovering from my eating disorder. So there's like the psychological piece of it, where I do think that it can be helpful in that kind of situation where like, yes, just get yourself to do the things that are hard for you.   so that you can overcome this psychological aspect of it. I had someone on my podcast that focuses a lot on just like body neutrality, not necessarily related to fertility, but it feels relevant because one of the things she struggled with was rheumatoid arthritis. And if she eats gluten or dairy, it flares it and it really hurts. And she said that she prioritizes her mental health over that.   physical experience. So she just still eats gluten and dairy, even though she knows it makes it worse. So that's something that's really empowering, I think, for people that if you know how things are affecting you and you're, you get to make that choice about like what the priority is. So for me, I, I like to feel really good. And part of my job is relies on me feeling really good.   energetically, you know, when I'm doing acupuncture, I do feel, or just being present with my client, like it feels to me, I know that I feel better if I'm eating a higher protein, higher fat, and that I'm eating mostly whole foods. So that's, that's a priority for me. And I do have to be thoughtful about like, is this an eating disorder? Like, am I kind of making myself crazy? Thanks.   So in the HA space, a lot of it is just like, fill yourself with, and I talked about this on my own podcast and Lisa's podcast. And my hope is that it's not triggering for anybody that's going through that experience because I do think it can be relevant and helpful to like eat, I'm trying not to say specific foods because I don't wanna demonize anyone food, but to eat things that are, you know, like more processed or something like that.   that you really like that brings a lot of joy to your life and also helps you to get over the psychological aspect of it. I think there's space for that. I don't think that just cramming yourself full of things that make you feel crappy, which was my first experience in residential. I was there for a really long time, for four months I was living in this place with this   you know, not so health promoting food and very based on like weight gain. And I, I did get my period back and I do think it was a step on the journey. And I, I feel. I also, after that left and lost a ton of weight, even more than I had before. So I, I went kind of the opposite direction because I was pushed so far.   Michelle (23:55) Bye.   Holly Leever (23:55) away from where I really wanted to be, I felt awful. And I don't think that is optimal health or fertility if you feel awful. But it's such a nuanced conversation. And this is where I think the individualized work in fertility is so important because I can say all these things about, you know, like optimize getting 100 to 150 grams of protein per day and having a balance of nutrition or recommend.   certain dietary resources like Real Food for Pregnancy is one of my favorite books. And I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about the new book yet, but there's another new book that's coming out soon that is a really great resource that I've just recently read through and been wowed by. But it is also about making it...   Michelle (24:34) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (24:46) it fitting into your life. So one of the things that I do a lot is I have women fill out a food log and also like a lifestyle log of how they're sleeping, what their screen time is like, what they're eating, you know, any number of things, what the exercise level is like. And then I make specific recommendations for each individual woman about what will be most supportive for her and what actually feels possible for her.   Michelle (25:13) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (25:14) If a woman is super busy and traveling all the time, she's not going to be able to eat like I do because I'm home cooking all the time. I'm home a lot of the time. That's not possible for everybody. So I also have a lot of ideas and ways that I work with women on getting in optimal nutrition that doesn't have to be done in such a specific way where you're tied to the kitchen all the time unless you want to be.   Michelle (25:20) Right.   Holly Leever (25:43) Yeah, it's a very nuanced, nuanced conversation that in an HA situation in particular, really requires individualized support, in my opinion.   Michelle (25:55) Yeah, for sure. I mean, the way I look at it in general is it's all a strategy. So that's how I see it with every patient. It really depends on their circumstance and what they feel and ultimately like what aligns for them. And if it's too much of a push, then people retract and it's not realistic. So everything has to be small steps to get to that point. Building a foundation, that's for sure.   Holly Leever (26:22) Yeah, one of the things that I shared about when I recorded my own podcast about HA is that if I went from, you know, where I was at, the first time I went to treatment was when I was 29. If I were to contemplate eating what I do now, back then, there's no way I could do that. There's no way. I needed to have these like bridges throughout my journey. And I do think that one of the things   Michelle (26:45) Yeah.   Holly Leever (26:52) found really helpful during my own, it wasn't really a fertility journey because I was sort of just doing it anyway, like not necessarily thinking about, it wasn't like I went through a long, like trying to conceive phase. I just did get pregnant because I had already optimized my fertility because I saw its relevance to my overall health.   I would maybe do a few things a little bit differently now.   Michelle (27:21) Yeah, I mean, it's always that way. I think we look back and there's so many things that we could have done differently. And, you know, that's, I guess that's hindsight. Hindsight is so perfectly clear versus like looking into the future. And that's, I think that really teaches us to be easy on ourselves and give us ourselves some grace and, and that I think is what helps the recovery is just.   Holly Leever (27:24) Yeah.   Yes, exactly.   Michelle (27:49) giving yourself that love and grace and acceptance, and also meeting yourself where you are. I think that's ultimately, it's very healing to do so. It feels more soothing, honestly, on the soul and on the body. And it's more realistic. It's more, it's something that you can really adopt and take in to your life.   Holly Leever (27:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Absolutely, yes.   Michelle (28:11) in a way that's going to last. So as far as, well, fertility awareness is amazing because I think a lot of people don't realize just how powerful it is. But for people who are not as familiar with it, what is it besides I think people think of the BBT, like basal body temperature charting, besides that obviously it's so much more.   Holly Leever (28:23) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (28:34) I look at it like a body awareness.   mindfulness practice of your menstrual cycle.   Holly Leever (28:39) Absolutely. Yeah. So fertility awareness, like the term fertility awareness, is kind of just having a basic understanding of how your fertility works. But the fertility awareness method, there are actually many different types and I'm not an expert on all of them. I have been trained by Lisa, so she's been very much informed by the justice method, but she doesn't exclusively teach that.   And it is a symptom thermal method, what I have been trained in. So that means we're tracking symptoms like cervical position and cervical mucus and thermal temperature. So we're tracking BBT. So there are other methods that only use mucus or use urine metabolites to test hormones and things like that. So what I'm sharing about is purely based on the style that I've been trained in. So there's definitely differences and definitely differences in the way that they chart that we all.   chart things, so it's a little bit tricky to interpret another method's charting because they don't always line up perfectly. But the method that I've been trained in is pretty similar to the Taking Charge of Your Fertility, which most people that know anything about fertility and fertility awareness know about that book. And that was my first exposure.   I don't know what your acupuncture education was like, but I know that all we learned about was BBT and it was sort of this like general awareness that this could tell women about their fertility, but there was really not any more detail given about all of the implications of what you can actually learn from the fertility awareness method, not just from a fertility perspective, but also from a health and metabolic function.   perspective. So yeah, so we're tracking BBT, basal body temperature. So that's just your waking temperature. So you take your temperature first thing when you wake up in the morning before you drink or talk or go to the bathroom or anything like that. And in the method I teach, there are some very specific guidelines around that, that I'm not going to go into everything because we'd be here forever. That's a lot of the work that I do. So that's the first part of it. And then from that, you create a chart.   Michelle (30:51) I'm sorry.   Holly Leever (30:58) you know, an XY graph, and then there's the cycle days and the temperature. I use Fahrenheit because I'm in America, but there's also Celsius charts available. I use the Read Your Body app with my clients or paper charts. I don't ever recommend using any of the apps that have any predictions. I used to use another app, but I just recently learned that they started adding predictions into their method.   And so I don't recommend that one anymore. So it's a big bummer when that happens. And if women have enough awareness about how it actually works, then if, as long as they can ignore the predictions and the algorithms and things, that's fine. But especially as you're learning, it makes things way more confusing. I've had women that have, they have like two different apps and then they're also taking their temperature and they're so confused because they're like.   Michelle (31:53) Yeah.   Holly Leever (31:56) This one tells me I'm ovulating here. And then my chart says something different. And I'm like, OK, that's because there's a lot of inaccuracy here. And the best way to know what's going on inside of your body in terms of your fertility is to actually track it manually yourself. Lisa compares it to the weather. If you can look on.   the weather prediction app or whatever and see what they think is gonna be happening, or you could walk outside and go see what's happening. You know? So that's really what the, I love that comparison because it's such an obvious thing. Like nobody would be like, is it raining? Or like they would just go outside. So the other part of it is cervical mucus tracking, which that is a lot of the education that is different. Learning how to do BBT is really pretty straightforward.   Michelle (32:27) I like that. That's good.   Holly Leever (32:50) And once you learn how to do it and the things that can impact your temperature, like the amount that you sleep. So you do need to have, in the method that I've been trained in, five hours of uninterrupted sleep, there's other methods that say that less sleep than that is fine. So I always recommend just doing your best and taking your temperature and always noting if there's something out of the ordinary.   but it can be impacted by alcohol, traveling, so many different things. So those are all things that I teach people about and then they learn to mark in their chart so that we can most accurately analyze what's going on with temperature. But it really is pretty straightforward. Like in a healthy cycle, you'll have a temperature shift and it will stay high throughout the entire luteal phase. So that's from ovulation until the day before the next period. And it should be within an optimal range   the pre-ovulatory phase and in the post-ovulatory phase. So that's part of the work that I do, which is an indication of metabolic function. And that's one of the reasons that I'm so obsessed with talking about protein is because getting adequate protein regularly throughout the day is really important for metabolic function. And that will show up in your temperature.   Also thyroid function too will usually show up in the temperature too, but we need to make sure that we're accurately tracking temperature first before we can draw any diagnostic conclusions from what we're seeing in the chart. So cervical mucus is the other part of it. So we have a very, in this method, a very specific way of collecting cervical mucus. So I use external wiping.   So usually when women will come to me, they'll be like, I saw this in my underwear and I pulled this out of my vagina. And you know, like there's, they're so confused about what they're actually tracking. And there's not any, there's not like a consistent way that they're tracking it to reduce the variables in kind of assessing what's really going on. So we use this external wiping method and then looking at the toilet paper and.   taking the mucus off of the toilet paper and stretching it between your fingers. So it is a more intimate type of fertility awareness, but it doesn't require you to actually insert your finger unless you're tracking cervical position. And as someone, I totally left this out of my own story, but it was a significant part of my story that I had really painful sex and the insertion of anything, a finger tampon, like...   Michelle (35:19) Yeah.   Holly Leever (35:20) really painful for me for a lot of my life, which I think was also connected to under nutrition and having such low estrogen levels and also being on birth control can shrink your vaginal canal, which I only learned within the past couple of years. And I think that was part of what was happening for me. So for other women that I've worked with, it's painful for them to insert their finger. So we don't use cervical position tracking and   Michelle (35:46) Right.   Holly Leever (35:49) it's really great that they don't have to do the internal checks for cervical mucus either for that reason. And it can also be more confusing if you're doing internal checks because there isn't really ever a day that your vagina is totally dry. So it makes your dry days harder to identify. And I mean, this is where there is a difference between textbook learning and actual in the field experience.   Michelle (36:07) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (36:19) in, if you look in a textbook, it's just like, Oh, they, a woman has her period, then she has dry days, then she has mucus, then she ovulates, then she goes back to dry days. And most of the women in my practice cycles don't look like that when we first start working together. And part of that is, you know, I've talked about my eating disorder, but I, there's a, most of the women I work with are nutrient depleted.   And it's not because they're intentionally trying to under eat or lose weight most of the time, it's because there hasn't been adequate education on what is actually optimal nutrition for a human. You know, we've just been so, I know in my family, it was just like convenience based. And a lot of the women that I work with, it's very much convenience based. So maybe they're getting enough overall calories, but they're not getting.   Michelle (36:53) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (37:11) actual nutrients from those calories, for example. My friend just sent me a reel from this guy and he was like an avocado and this like Snickers thing have like the same amount of calories. But in terms of nutrient density, there's really no comparison of what that, the message that that's going to send to your body about what to do with that food. So.   Michelle (37:27) Right.   Yeah.   Holly Leever (37:36) I went off into a little nutrition tangent again, but it's so relevant to cervical mucus production. So I see all sorts of issues with cervical mucus production, whether it's limited or if the mucus phase is too long, if there is mucus in the post-ovulatory phase. And this is the difference between taking her, Lisa's, class in learning how to chart my own cycle versus learning how to apply it for many, many women. This is what we...   Michelle (37:41) Bye.   Holly Leever (38:05) learn about is how to really get into the nitty gritty details about like, what does this mucus mean? And the other part that I'll say about fertility awareness is that although we're getting into the nitty gritty details about BBT and cervical mucus and cervical position, any individual like day or data point is sort of irrelevant outside of the context of the full chart. It's just like Chinese medicine. I'm sure that   Michelle (38:33) Yeah.   Holly Leever (38:34) people are like, I have a headache, what would you do for that? And you're like, do you have like an hour for me to explain to you all of the potential causes of headaches? Because that's really, you know, we're not looking at symptoms on an individual basis, we're looking at the overall pattern of like what is causing that for that individual person? And so the chart really feels very similar to Chinese medicine in that way, in that it gives us...   Michelle (38:43) Yeah, it's true.   Yeah.   Holly Leever (39:03) It's like its whole own diagnostic process, which is really fun to compare with also the Chinese medicine diagnosis too. So I love kind of weaving those two things together too.   Michelle (39:18) I'll be honest, it makes it easier for me to do my job. I can see what's going on. I can see if I need to increase some young herbs, increase the heat in the body. And then I'll see after a while, things shift based on what I do, which is based on what I saw early on. So it's huge because it's such a great tool. So when people come in to see me and they say, I have a couple of months worth of my   Holly Leever (39:27) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (39:46) charting, I'm like so excited. So it gives me a lot to work with.   Holly Leever (39:48) Yes. I mean, working with fertility, I started working with fertility pretty early on in my practice, and I just started really incorporating fertility awareness in the way that I do it now within the past couple of years. And it was like doing it blind before I had as much information as I do now. If you don't have a chart, you don't even know if they're ovulating. So-   Michelle (40:11) Yeah, it's a game changer.   Yeah, I mean, you could do sometimes like a progesterone metabolites, not so much LH, you know, just to make sure to confirm, but, you know, there's definitely like other things and other more expensive kits that you can get, but I mean, this is just gold standard. It's like, it's so great, you know, it's such a great way to look at it. It gives you so much insight, it connects you with your own body and   Holly Leever (40:18) OPKs. Yep, right.   Mm-hmm.   That's it.   Michelle (40:40) I think it's amazing, but I could talk to you for hours, Holly. I mean, this is so interesting. There's so many things that we can obviously talk about, but it's so important for people to learn this and to know that it is something that can actually benefit them. I think some people get really stressed out by it initially. And I say it's the same thing as like meditation. When you sit down to meditate, at first it's uncomfortable or you're starting something new, it's going to be uncomfortable.   Holly Leever (40:58) Hehehe   Michelle (41:07) But if you can kind of get through that discomfort, eventually on the other side, it's gonna give you so much more. It's gonna benefit you in so many ways that you didn't even imagine.   Holly Leever (41:17) and sometimes the overwhelm is because they don't understand it. That's what I found, is that people will be reading into each little peak and valley in the chart, and they're just kind of like, I don't even know what it means. And that's really stressful. And if you... I don't... I mean, I could tell people it within an hour session how to...   Michelle (41:23) Yeah.   Yeah.   Oh yeah, because...   Holly Leever (41:45) actually interpret the BBT and they could really get a lot of, it's just like going to a meditation class. If you learn just actually what is happening and what's normal, that can really help to sort of calm your nervous system about the overwhelm around it.   Michelle (42:03) Yeah. And also knowing that eventually it's going to get easier. It's just, it's like anything. It's like anything new eventually does get easier. So for people who do want to hear your podcast or reach out to you and work with you, how can they find you?   Holly Leever (42:07) Let's move.   Yeah, so I'm very active on Instagram. I'm on Instagram at rosebud underscore wellness. I also have a website rosebudwellness.com. And I do have a free fertility awareness for conception video on my Instagram linked there. Maybe we could also link it in the show notes. I could send it to you. So it's just a 30 minute video kind of going through a little bit more details about what's involved.   So I know that fertility awareness is not for everyone. Not everybody's gonna want to get into this level of detail. So that video is really helpful for people to kind of get a feel for it and see like, does that sound crazy or could I maybe try that? So, yeah.   Michelle (43:05) That's awesome. Well, this is great because people are listening to this. They're probably really curious about it. So it's awesome to have a free resource. So thank you for that. Um, so Holly, thank you so much for coming on. This is so great. I mean, I can talk to you for way um, than we have time, but this is just great information. I'm sure so many people got so much value from this. So thank you for coming on today.   Holly Leever (43:13) Yeah.   My pleasure, thank you so much for having me.