0:00

This

0:02

episode contains language that might not

0:04

be suitable for children.

0:10

So 4 someone who's never

0:12

heard the term TERF, trans

0:15

exclusionary radical feminist, what

0:18

is a terf? Where does that term come

0:20

from? And what does it describe?

0:22

Yeah.

0:22

I'm not sure you're getting quite how offensive

0:24

a term is to many people. Journalist

0:27

Helen

0:28

Lewis, TERF writer at the Atlantic

0:30

and author of the book, Difficult Women,

0:33

a history of feminism in eleven fights.

0:35

Think about it like the word queer, which

0:38

some people are very happy to self describe us.

0:40

And for other people, it's the term that, you know,

0:42

someone with a skin had shouted at them before

0:44

trying to beat them up. Outside a night club.

0:47

And that's how a lot of women feel TERF.

0:49

You know, some feel that they've reclaimed it. Others

0:51

feel this is a word that they associate with people

0:54

who want to slit their throat. So

0:56

it's one that I would handle with tongues

0:58

as it were. Mhmm. It stands for

1:00

trans exclusionary radical feminist, and

1:02

it kind of doesn't mean any of

1:04

those things anymore. I'm often called

1:07

a terf even though I've written in print that I think

1:09

trans women are women. It doesn't matter though.

1:11

It just means This is a bad woman.

1:13

You don't need to know any more about her. I

1:15

mean, TERF is basically which.

1:31

I had been becoming increasingly

1:34

concerned about the way

1:36

in which women were being shut down.

1:43

Women who I felt had some very

1:45

valid concerns. I

1:50

was starting to see activists behaving

1:52

in a very aggressive way outside feminist

1:54

meetings. Like,

1:55

what were they doing? They were banging,

1:58

kicking on windows. Very

2:01

threatening. They were masked. I'm

2:05

looking at an assault now and freedom of speech,

2:07

freedom of thought, even freedom of association.

2:20

Nobody cares and you will die alone.

2:22

You will die alone and you will learn in

2:25

hell.

2:54

Chapter 4, turf

2:56

wars. Growing up,

2:58

what did you understand feminism to

3:00

be? Who were the feminists that you looked up

3:02

to? And and what did you see them fighting

3:04

for? I was very

3:08

feminist in my late teens.

3:11

Early twenties. And

3:13

I was reading books that even then were

3:15

little outdated. People like Kate Milich,

3:18

Germane Grier, seeing on the books, obviously,

3:20

who's who was long who did that by the

3:22

time I came to her book, I

3:24

would describe myself now

3:27

and probably then too. As

3:29

an idealist, definitely, but

3:32

never really an ideal log. Mhmm.

3:34

I was and always have

3:36

been passionately concerned

3:39

about the plight

3:41

of girls and women, not only in the west, but

3:43

further afield.

3:59

Checking Rowling's born in nineteen sixty five,

4:01

and that means that she lives, you know,

4:03

her youth through a particularly vibrant

4:06

time for the UK feminist movement. In

4:08

nineteen seventy one, the first women's

4:10

refuge opened in Britain. In

4:12

Chiswick in West

4:13

London. And that was the first time that women

4:15

who had been beaten up by their partners, you

4:17

know, had somewhere to go, they had somewhere

4:20

to leave. You're saying there weren't places like

4:22

that until nineteen seventy

4:23

one? Yeah.

4:24

The first one was founded by a woman called Erin

4:26

Pizzi. Very shortly after

4:29

we started. Women began to

4:31

come and to talk about the fact they were battered

4:33

as home by their husbands, and they seemed

4:35

to be able to get no help. 4 social

4:38

services, from

4:39

police, or from their solicitors. And

4:42

her stories about that first refuge are

4:44

a heartbreaking, you know, women walking in covered

4:47

with brews. It's covered in cigarette burns.

4:50

Nobody seem to be doing anything constructive

4:52

to help. It does seem to be sending these women back

4:54

to the men who beat

4:55

them, and some back to

4:57

the killed. In

4:59

nineteen seventy one, when Rowling

5:02

would have just been a young girl heading off to primary

5:04

school, the world was seeing the development

5:06

of something that women in my generation grew

5:09

up largely taking for granted A

5:12

place to go when you've been the victim of

5:14

what we now call domestic violence.

5:17

He came home one day and he

5:19

cut me. What I cost you was a carving

5:21

knife. I had to wait until he collapsed

5:23

and fell

5:24

asleep, you know, before I could go to the hospital.

5:27

The

5:27

things

5:27

that people were going through in private behind

5:29

closed doors during that time are now

5:31

quite horrifying to reflect on.

5:33

He strangled me once and all

5:37

I could remember in the end was all

5:39

this blood thick

5:42

slimey blood or coming out my

5:44

mouth. I was on the line

5:46

between life and

5:47

death. And

5:49

it was part of a wider movement decade about the

5:51

idea that you weren't just talking about what

5:53

police used to euphemistically called wife beating,

5:56

which was usually done in response, you know, to

5:58

nagging. And was 4 just a

6:00

domestic. All of that language got

6:02

swept away and people instead began to talk about

6:05

domestic violence and that the idea that was

6:07

a crime and that was something that caused real

6:09

harm and needed to be prosecuted.

6:14

The shelter not only gave women a safe

6:16

refuge, but it also raised

6:18

awareness of how often these

6:20

things were happening, and that

6:22

paved the way for real changes in law

6:24

enforcement and social services. This

6:26

is the founder of that first shelter, Erin

6:29

Pizzsey, speaking in twenty fourteen.

6:31

And the other problem also, unless she

6:33

had a family to go to, who would

6:35

protect her. There was no money because

6:37

as soon as she tried to go to to

6:40

get some kind of security money from

6:42

social security. They

6:44

told you, but your but your husband in those

6:46

days, mostly. Your husband wants you back.

6:48

So therefore, you're not entitled to anything.

6:52

Protecting women from both partner violence

6:54

and the poverty that could befall them if they tried

6:56

to leave their husbands became a primary

6:59

focus of British

6:59

feminism, throughout Rowling's youth.

7:02

So that was a big theme of the seventies and

7:04

eighties as well as reclaim the night. Police

7:07

are investigating the discovery of a

7:09

woman's body on a playing field in the

7:11

Chapel Town District of Leeds. The

7:14

woman who hasn't yet been identified was

7:17

found by a milkman on his early delivery

7:19

round. Medicipate detectives.

7:21

So in nineteen seventy seven, you had reclaimed

7:23

the night, which was a response to the

7:25

Yorkshire Ripples, a serial killer of

7:27

women. The Yorkshire Ripper. Like

7:29

his Victorian predecessor, Jack

7:32

the Ripper, he mutilated his

7:34

women

7:34

victims. Sutcliffe murdered thirteen

7:37

women across York and the northwest of

7:39

England between nineteen seventy five and

7:41

nineteen eighty, he was also convicted

7:43

of the attempted murder of seven other

7:45

women. And this provoked an enormous

7:47

feminist backlash. And the backlash related

7:49

to the idea that women weren't safe in public

7:51

spaces, you know, that women were living under

7:53

this constant threat of mail violence

7:56

and intimidation, and that sparked

7:58

marches all across the UK,

8:01

in the world.

8:04

Knight is magical for

8:06

men. They

8:09

hunt down random victims. Find

8:13

in the dark solace, sanction,

8:17

and sanctuary. We

8:20

will have to take back the

8:22

night.

8:27

It's very much a feature of the culture in

8:29

which I grow up that women

8:32

by virtue of their biology are

8:35

subjected to specific harms specific

8:37

pressures and require certain

8:39

protections. And that that is

8:41

inextricably linked with our biology,

8:43

and we cannot fight for our rights

8:46

without naming and accurately describing

8:48

what makes us different from

8:50

men. Ruling says that

8:52

this was all foundational to her understanding

8:54

of why feminism was necessary.

8:57

Because for generations, the

8:59

reality of male violence and predation

9:02

was a fact that had been

9:03

ignored, downplayed, and

9:05

even excused until feminists

9:08

fought for it to be recognized and remedied

9:10

in as many ways as

9:11

possible. My feminism must

9:14

remain grounded in the

9:16

sex class and the impressions my sex

9:18

class suffer. That's the

9:20

basis for our oppression. That's my

9:22

understanding of why certain things

9:24

have happened to

9:25

me. And of course,

9:27

We now know that Rowling herself

9:29

needed these protections and services in

9:32

her own life. And while

9:34

watching these women fight for their rights,

9:36

Rolling says she also watched as

9:38

they were constantly vilified

9:40

4. British feminism faced all

9:42

the same attacks that American feminism did

9:44

that it was being carried out by ultra

9:46

Leftists by overgrown student

9:48

protesters by people who

9:50

are, you know, probably lesbians or

9:52

not normal women in some other

9:55

sense. Families were hugely

9:57

disparaged across the mainstream.

10:00

They were ugly. They didn't shave

10:02

their armpits. They were aggressive. They

10:04

were butch. And

10:06

I suppose I see real parallels with

10:08

now or with the slur

10:11

that is TERF. All

10:17

the same tropes about a woman not behaving

10:19

the way woman is supposed to behave. You

10:23

know, they're all of the cliches. Which

10:28

brings us to today.

10:39

We'll be right back.

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This podcast is supported by MoikBox.

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These letters and packages from faraway friends

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12:12

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which trials.

13:30

Over the past couple of decades, the

13:32

fight for LGBT rights has

13:34

experienced many landmark victories

13:37

Hanging and hosting

13:39

in the streets. Most

13:41

notably, the legalization of

13:43

same sex marriage in both the UK

13:46

in the US.

13:47

An historic milestone for

13:49

gay couples in England and Wales.

13:52

Just one of many same sex unions

13:54

today proudly under the banner

13:56

of love, but now also under the protection

13:59

of the US constitution. Today,

14:02

we can say in no uncertain TERF.

14:05

That we've made our union

14:07

a little more perfect. Then

14:10

legal restrictions were dropped on same

14:12

sex couples' ability to adopt children.

14:15

And a record number of LGBT candidates

14:17

have been elected in races across the

14:19

US.

14:20

Eighty percent of 4 five hundred companies

14:23

protect their transgender employees. Most

14:25

major cities protect their transgender

14:28

residents. Starting today, transgender individuals

14:31

may openly join the US military. And

14:34

in just the last decade, trans

14:36

rights and acceptance in particular have

14:38

come into the spotlight.

14:40

Culturally, with the visibility of trans

14:42

celebrities like Livverne Cox and Caitlin

14:44

Jenner, but also through a series

14:46

of big institutional wins from

14:49

the dropping of restrictions on military service,

14:51

to the Bostock decision from the US

14:53

supreme court. Supreme Court

14:55

has ruled that LGBT Americans

14:58

are protected

15:00

by the anti discrimination laws

15:02

of this country at their Which in twenty

15:04

twenty ruled that trans citizens

15:07

have equal protection under the law.

15:09

And cannot be discriminated against in

15:11

areas like housing and the

15:13

workplace. Gender, this

15:14

is a major civil rights opinion

15:17

in the supreme court.

15:19

AND YET. OVERNIGHT

15:21

PROTESTERS TAKING THEIR BATTLE PRIME FOR

15:23

TRANSGENDER RIGHTS DIRECTLY TO THE

15:25

WHITE HOUSE.

15:29

Accusing the There's also been a backlash

15:31

to some of these gains, whether

15:33

it's from president Trump, who overturned

15:35

Obama era protections for trans healthcare

15:38

and military service, or populist

15:40

leaders across the world, figures like

15:42

Victor Orban in Hungary, who are

15:44

stoking attacks on the very legitimacy

15:47

of LGBT identities altogether.

15:49

But that, was

15:51

not the fight that JK Rowling

15:53

would eventually step into. I think the

15:55

hardest thing from outsiders to understand is that

15:58

there are two different arguments going on.

16:00

One is the traditional conservative right

16:02

argument, which is anti LGBT.

16:05

So someone like Viktor Orban in Hungary

16:07

doesn't think people should be allowed to transition. And,

16:10

you know, wants to take away that that right from

16:12

them, which is part of a broader idea that kinda

16:15

LGBT identities are

16:17

decadent and post modern

16:19

and you know, are gonna sort of sap

16:21

the vital life 4 out of the country. That

16:23

is one criticism of

16:25

modern LGBT politics. The

16:27

other one is a criticism from the left

16:30

in which it says sometimes

16:33

male people and female people have different

16:35

interests. No matter how the male

16:37

people identify, and we need

16:39

to work out those conflicts in policy

16:41

and law. Recently, A

16:44

conflict has been growing within the

16:46

political

16:46

left. Among many of the very same

16:48

people who have long fought for

16:51

and cheered on these recent

16:53

gains in LGBT rights.

16:55

A conflict about whether sometimes

16:58

The fight for trans rights is

17:00

ever at odds with the hard won gains

17:02

of the women's rights

17:03

movement. That is very different from saying

17:05

someone's perver or a degenerate.

17:08

Right? It says, you are perfectly free to

17:10

live your

17:10

life. This is perfectly valid identity to adopt.

17:12

However, there might be times when it comes into conflict

17:14

with other identities.

17:18

Take for example, women's sports.

17:21

Transgender swimmer, Leah Thomas, is

17:23

breaking barriers and records.

17:25

Leah Thomas to the wall

17:27

first, and that is

17:29

a new highly lead me.

17:32

Recently, a swimmer at the University of

17:34

Pennsylvania, who competed on the men's

17:36

team as a freshman sophomore and

17:38

junior, transitioned and

17:40

began competing on the women's team.

17:42

Leah Thomas dominated this weekend's

17:44

women

17:45

swimming Ivy League championships.

17:47

Not only winning major championships, but

17:49

also breaking women swimming records,

17:52

Thomas is eligible to compete under

17:54

n c double a rules, which require transgender

17:56

athletes to complete at least one

17:59

year of testosterone suppression treatments.

18:02

This prompted many to come out and argue

18:04

that it's unfair for someone who went through

18:06

male puberty to join the women's team

18:08

because they argued, The athletic

18:11

advantages that come with male puberty cannot

18:13

be fully erased with hormone

18:15

therapy. You're never gonna be able to

18:17

remove male physical advantage,

18:20

not of it. You know, you may be able to remove a

18:22

third of it or you may even be able to remove

18:24

it.

18:24

This included Olympic athletes like

18:27

Sharon Davies, Michael Folkes.

18:29

I believe that we all

18:31

should feel comfortable with who we are in our

18:33

own skin, but I think sport should

18:35

all be played at an even playing

18:37

field.

18:37

AND KAYLEN GENNER.

18:38

IT IS JUST NOT FARE

18:40

AND ALSO FEMINOUS. AT

18:43

THE HEART OF ALL OF THIS, THERE REALLY ARE JUST TWO

18:45

SUES THAT PEOPLE FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT

18:47

FEARNESS AND SPORTS ON ONE HAND AND

18:49

THE IMPORTANCE OF EXCEPTANCE AND INCLOSION

18:52

ON THE other and right there.

18:59

Many of these feminists point out that

19:02

they have fought hard and are still

19:04

fighting for funding and resources

19:06

for women's sports. And they see

19:08

a real conflict and interest here

19:10

that needs to be addressed. But

19:13

some trans athletes like Thomas ask,

19:15

How is this situation all that different

19:18

from the fact that there are real physical

19:20

variations between all individuals?

19:22

I'm not a medical expert, but there's

19:25

a lot of variation among cis

19:28

female athletes. Quick note,

19:30

The term says refers to people who

19:32

are not transgender. There's

19:34

cis women who are very tall and

19:36

very muscular and have more testosterone room

19:39

than another cis

19:40

woman, and should that then

19:42

also disqualify them?

19:44

And many trans advocates say that attempts

19:46

to prohibit trans women and girls from

19:48

playing women sports is a form

19:51

of bigotry. And

19:53

this conflict becomes both

19:55

more complicated and more contentious

19:58

when it's not women's sports at issue,

20:00

but women's spaces. Spaces

20:03

like women's bathrooms, locker

20:06

rooms, domestic violence shelters,

20:08

and even prisons. In

20:11

recent years, that tension has

20:13

become much more urgent. Especially

20:15

for some feminists in the UK because

20:17

of a proposed legal change that's

20:20

often referred to as self

20:22

ID. Well,

20:24

campaigners are worried about potential changes

20:26

to the Gender Recognition Act, which will allow

20:28

men and women to choose their own

20:30

gender, arguing it could enable predatory men

20:32

to abuse women in single sex

20:34

spaces. The legal suggestion

20:37

that it was gonna be made much easier to change

20:39

your legal gender. Was what

20:41

made this not just an abstract discussion among

20:44

feminists and queer theories, but a matter of

20:46

quite urgent public policy in Britain.

20:49

We say no to self identification.

20:55

We say no to males and

20:57

women's prisons. 4

21:00

years in the UK, if a trans

21:02

person wanted to be fully recognized by

21:04

the government as their preferred gender, they

21:07

needed to go through a medical evaluation

21:09

and receive diagnosis of gender

21:11

4, which essentially is

21:13

an pence discomfort that people

21:15

can feel if their gender identity does

21:18

not match their body. But this

21:20

proposed change would allow people

21:22

to alter their legal sex or gender based

21:25

largely on, as the name suggests,

21:27

their self declared gender identity. Without

21:30

any medical requirements or diagnosis at

21:32

all. It was a change some trans

21:34

people wanted in part because

21:36

they felt that the need for a diagnosis was

21:39

stigmatizing. The arguments came

21:42

about the idea that as it

21:44

stands, the procedure involves

21:46

gatekeeping. You know, you need to prove to dock

21:48

actors at your trans, which is exactly what the

21:50

trans activist hated about. The idea that someone

21:53

else gets the final stamp on your very

21:55

personal identity. But the

21:57

feminist argument was that some level of gatekeeping

21:59

was necessary in order to safeguard single

22:02

sex

22:02

spaces. In other words,

22:04

the removal of that need for a medical

22:06

diagnosis, the elimination of

22:09

that gatekeeping, concerns

22:11

some feminists, especially those

22:13

shaped by movements like take back the night.

22:16

They worry that predatory males

22:18

would find some way to take advantage of these

22:20

looser requirements to harm women

22:22

and girls. They were concerned that

22:24

in a good faith effort to make things easier

22:27

for trans

22:27

people, the government was aggravating

22:30

risks to women. I've been watching

22:32

this. I've been interested

22:35

in

22:35

it, and I did a lot of

22:37

reading around it.

22:38

And as this public debate grew,

22:41

One of those concerned feminists was

22:43

JK Rowling. So I was already

22:45

aware that the activism was arguing four

22:47

this kind of self identification. 4,

22:49

in an entirely male bodied male, can,

22:53

by self declaration, become

22:55

in inverted commas a woman, conceptually

22:59

as it He's now conceptually a woman.

23:01

And I was troubled by that activism

23:04

because after a long

23:06

life dealing with certain issues, whether

23:09

as a donor or an

23:11

activist myself or from being a woman,

23:14

I think I have a very realistic

23:16

view, not a scare mongering view,

23:20

on what may happen when you

23:22

loosen boundaries around single sex spaces for

23:24

women and girls. So that troubled

23:26

me. Have you thought through

23:29

what this could mean for women and girls?

23:32

I can already hear the screams of outrage.

23:34

You are saying that trans people are all predators.

23:36

Of course, I am not anymore that

23:38

I'm saying, I'm a happily married straight woman.

23:41

I know perfectly well, all men aren't

23:43

predators. I know that. I have

23:45

good men in my life who are among

23:47

my favorite people. But

23:50

I am also aware that ninety eight percent

23:52

to ninety nine percent of sexual offenses

23:54

are caused by those born with

23:56

penises. The problem

23:58

is male violence. All

24:01

a predator wants is access

24:03

and to open the doors of changing

24:06

rooms bought rape centers,

24:08

domestic violence TERF, to

24:11

open the doors to any male

24:13

who says, I'm a woman and I have the right

24:15

to be here. It will constitute

24:17

a risk to women and girls. Now,

24:19

that actually has very little to do with

24:21

trans people and a lot to do

24:24

with what we know are the risks from men

24:26

to women. But this

24:28

is the flash point. The activists

24:31

who would argue against me, I've

24:33

seen them say, but these are now women. And

24:36

I say, well, here is where, what a

24:38

woman is becomes hugely important.

24:41

And I also ask myself a question, I think

24:44

such a useful and basic question

24:46

to ask yourself if you want us

24:48

ascertain whether you're being intellectually honest.

24:52

What proof would I need to see

24:54

to change my opinion? And so I asked

24:56

myself that that question. Okay.

24:58

So I thought, well, it's being claimed that

25:02

Nobody has ever abused,

25:04

dressing as the opposite sex, and no

25:06

trans woman has ever presented a physical

25:09

threat to a woman in an intimate space. Obviously,

25:11

if I go looking and there's literally no evidence

25:14

that's ever happened, well then, clearly,

25:16

I my fears are baseless. So

25:18

I went and looked and It's

25:21

with no pleasure that I say that there was

25:23

very clear evidence that that

25:25

had happened.

25:27

I'll talk story tonight, a transgender prisoner

25:29

sexually attacked inmates in a female

25:31

jail.

25:33

Stephen Warner. So there's a famous case in

25:35

England of a trans woman called Karen White

25:37

who was convicted of sexual offenses and

25:39

sent to women's prison and then sexually

25:41

assaulted two

25:42

women. The court heard how she used

25:44

her transgender persona to put

25:46

herself in contact with vulnerable women.

25:49

She'd ended up in the female new hall prisoner

25:51

Wakefield on command after a number

25:53

of sexual

25:54

offenses, including rape. Tonight

25:56

questions about how someone who'd raped women

25:59

and who claimed to be transgender ended

26:01

up in a female jail before undergoing

26:03

any proper gender reassignment and

26:05

was able to abuse fellow inmates.

26:08

That happened, and it was quite

26:10

a

26:11

big moment, I think, for UK feminism, for

26:13

all these people who'd been told that this would never happen

26:15

to finally have evidence that in fact it had happened.

26:18

Can you articulate where those

26:21

on the opposing side of this debate are

26:23

coming from? Like, what is the steel

26:25

man, good faith way to understand the

26:27

argument that says, if your gender

26:29

identity is female, then

26:32

medical transition or not. You

26:34

should be housed in a women's

26:35

prison. There is a completely reasonable argument

26:38

which is that trans women are particularly at risk

26:40

of sexual violence in male prisons. And that

26:42

is a fact there are lots of groups who are vulnerable,

26:44

particularly in in male prisons. Male prisons are

26:46

in any case a really horrible place to be. The

26:48

conditions are horrible. You know, they're violent,

26:50

tense places to be. And, you know,

26:52

America with its much greater rates of incarceration,

26:55

those problems are amplified. So I

26:57

do think there is a completely reasonable point

27:00

to say if you are a trans woman who has been convicted

27:02

of a nonviolent crime, is it gonna be

27:04

a huge risk to your safety to be put

27:07

in a in a men's prison? Yes, it

27:09

is. And the conclusion that Britain

27:11

has come to really is that people with a gender recognition

27:13

certificate, then there's people who have legally fully

27:15

transitioned. The presumption should be that they should

27:17

be in the in the female estate. And

27:20

then 4 everybody else, it's an individual

27:22

case conference. But with the presumption

27:24

that if you're convicted of violence or sexual crime,

27:26

you cannot be safely held in the women's

27:28

prison estate. Now that's not what's happened

27:31

in in America at all, and the ACLU,

27:33

the great liberal organization, have been fighting

27:35

on behalf of trans women. Some

27:37

of whom have been convicted of violent offenses to stay

27:39

in the women's estate. And

27:41

that is very alarming to me.

27:44

The ACLU has also been fighting

27:47

on behalf of trans people when it

27:49

comes to bathroom access. And

27:51

there's a similar argument playing out there.

27:53

Feminists are concerned when they hear of

27:55

assault by trans women or

27:58

males who pose as trans women.

28:00

In public bathrooms. There's

28:02

one well publicized example that involves

28:04

an attack on a ten year old girl in

28:06

Scotland. It's rare, but

28:09

it does happen. There are extensively

28:12

documented cases of it.

28:14

However, we should be really careful

28:16

that we shouldn't play into moral panic

28:18

narrative that says that, you know,

28:20

people are going to transition just to

28:23

just to predict on people. The

28:25

thing I would say is that predators

28:28

exploit any loophole that they can,

28:31

you know. And and that is something that

28:33

we should always be when you're doing safeguarding,

28:36

you can't have a kind of rosy

28:38

view of humanity. You have to look at

28:40

what the worst it could happen is, So

28:42

I think while maintaining that it is rare,

28:44

I think you have to acknowledge that it happens.

28:53

Because assaults in bathrooms are

28:56

so rare, trans people

28:58

often find it galling, and humiliating

29:01

when decision makers try to force them

29:03

to use the bathroom of their sex at

29:05

birth.

29:06

It's just routine like

29:08

Everyone goes to the restroom, everyone gets out. It's

29:10

nothing

29:11

nothing. It's not a big deal. Many

29:15

trans people report that they avoid

29:17

public bathrooms as it is. Out

29:19

of fear of being called out or

29:22

even attacked, And this

29:24

makes it difficult for them to just be

29:26

in public at a concert or

29:28

a stadium but even more importantly at

29:31

work or at school. And

29:33

advocates ask, when the

29:35

risk to others is low, why

29:38

impose interventions that could make this tough

29:40

situation any harder? It's

29:43

just going to the bathroom. You

29:46

go to your business, then you wash your

29:48

hands, and then you leave it just simple.

29:51

And when people make a big deal about it, it just

29:53

kinda gets blown out of proportion. In

30:03

an increasingly polarized world,

30:05

gender issues have become the front

30:07

line, and it can be hard to know where to start,

30:09

how to express an opinion. If it's

30:11

even okay to voice one, yet

30:14

as the chasm between opposing views

30:16

increases its vulnerable children

30:18

who've fallen into the

30:19

abyss. And finally,

30:22

B issue that's brought this once

30:24

obscure debate into the center of culture

30:27

is the medical transition of young

30:29

people, child

30:30

transition. And that's particularly acute

30:33

because the composition of the group of people

30:35

trying to transition as children has changed

30:37

and it has grown enormously. Now

30:39

in recent years, there's been a huge

30:42

increase in the number of children reporting

30:44

gender

30:45

4. Well,

30:45

it's ethylene. You know, we're talking about difference

30:48

in Britain between a couple of hundred

30:50

people a year, two thousands a year in

30:52

the last decade or

30:53

so. The clinics here and in London

30:55

see three thousand percent more patients than they

30:57

did ten years ago. Among

30:59

girls, referrals are up more than five

31:01

thousand percent. There's no question

31:04

this service. Across the TERF there

31:06

has been a sharp rise in the number of minors

31:08

who are seeking to transition, especially

31:11

among young females. And in

31:13

just the US, The number of

31:15

clinics that help young people transition has

31:18

grown from zero to more than

31:20

a hundred

31:21

in just the past fifteen years. There's

31:23

no question this service is helping children

31:26

who feel distressed in their own bodies,

31:28

but the full impact of children making

31:30

decisions about their gender at such young

31:32

majors may not truly be clear until

31:35

much later in their

31:36

lives. Five thousand children were

31:38

referred to their

31:39

clinic last year, and that's a twenty fold

31:41

increase on the number decade ago. Huge.

31:43

Isn't it? Yeah. And so so that means you've got

31:44

There's definitely something going on there.

31:47

And whether or not those people getting the right treatment

31:49

is a big question when the treatments aren't themselves so

31:51

new. Is a very fraught question indeed.

31:55

One controversy related to child transition

31:57

is a treatment often referred to

31:59

as puberty blockers. Now,

32:02

these drugs are not new. For

32:04

decades, they've been used to treat a condition

32:07

where a child begins puberty early.

32:09

Sometimes as young as age six or seven.

32:12

Blockers halt that development and then

32:14

a child can resume the process years

32:16

TERF, alongside their peers.

32:18

That's a very different use case than the

32:21

modern way of using them for trans children,

32:23

which is to block puberty in

32:25

your natal sex and then go straight

32:27

into cross sex hormones and the other sex.

32:31

Young people with gender 4 tend

32:33

to be extremely distressed by their

32:35

changing bodies. So gender

32:37

clinicians began using these drugs off

32:39

label to halt their puberty, and

32:41

then later might introduce cross sex hormones.

32:44

So 4 example, a female would

32:46

grow facial hair or a male would

32:48

develop breast tissue.

32:50

I've been concerned for some time that

32:52

that there are providers who are not following the

32:54

standards of care, which historically

32:57

have invoked the need for

32:59

an individualized comprehensive

33:02

bio psychosocial evaluation prior

33:05

to the initiation of medicines. This

33:08

is doctor Erica Anderson, a

33:10

psychologist who has worked extensively with

33:12

transgender youth and who is herself

33:14

a transgender woman. She's also a

33:16

former board member of W. Path,

33:18

the World Professional Association for

33:21

transgender health. As doctor

33:23

Anderson told me, Wpath

33:25

recommends that 4 prescribing interventions

33:28

like puberty blockers, clinicians should

33:30

methodically evaluate young person.

33:32

That they should take time with a minor and their

33:34

parents to investigate any underlying

33:36

conditions and make sure that

33:38

this is the right treatment for each individual.

33:42

But puberty blockers have become a flash

33:44

point in part because some clinicians

33:47

do not appear to be following those guidelines.

33:50

So what I've seen in the USA, and

33:52

this has been reported elsewhere, is

33:55

that there are some young people who are

33:57

going to providers and

33:59

obtaining puberty blockers and hormones,

34:01

but not having a full mental health

34:03

evaluation. And I think that's

34:06

sloppy and bad practice.

34:09

Over the past decade, it has become

34:11

increasingly common for parents and doctors

34:14

to adopt an approach where

34:16

they affirm a child when they say their

34:18

trans. But doctor Anderson

34:20

says that some well meaning clinics

34:22

and doctors have gone further than that,

34:25

and that in their attempts to support gender

34:27

nonconforming kids, they have stopped

34:30

asking important questions. And

34:32

often too quickly accept a

34:34

child's self assessment. Some

34:36

trans advocates argue that that's exactly

34:39

what clinics should be doing. As this

34:41

popular TikTok video explains.

34:43

No one says that cisgender kids are

34:45

too young to know that they are cisgender. No.

34:47

Cisgender kids are pretty much always trust

34:50

to know their gender identity. If cisgender

34:52

kids are young enough to know that they are not transgender,

34:55

then transgender kids are young enough to know that

34:57

they are transgender. It's as simple as that.

34:59

It's not as simple as

35:01

that. Doctor Anderson says

35:03

that, especially when dealing with kids,

35:05

you need to ensure that you're diagnosing them correctly.

35:08

Just as you would with any other medical condition.

35:11

But in addition, child and adolescent

35:14

brains are still developing. So

35:16

rushing a young person into gender transition

35:19

without a full evaluation of other

35:21

co occurring

35:22

conditions, is bad practice.

35:24

And this, to me, flies in the face

35:27

of the history of medicine, clinical

35:29

medicine, and clinical psychology, which

35:32

the hallmark of which is an individualized evaluation

35:35

before you provide treatment. This

35:38

concern on my part is further accentuated

35:41

by the phenomenon. We've

35:43

also seen in the last few years, which is a

35:45

flood of young people going to

35:47

gender clinics, expressing gender variance,

35:50

way out of proportion to what we've ever seen

35:52

before and in numbers

35:55

that are not entirely understandable.

35:59

Doctor Anderson and other clinicians still

36:01

believe there are benefits to using puberty

36:03

blockers for some kids with gender 4.

36:06

But they are also urgent caution,

36:09

especially to doctors who offer these treatments,

36:11

based largely on a young person's request

36:14

for them. And that's partly

36:16

because these treatments, puberty

36:18

blockers followed by hormone therapy, can

36:21

lead to infertility. And for

36:23

young males whose puberty is blocked in its early

36:25

stages, a high likelihood

36:27

of never experiencing an orgasm. She

36:30

says that doctors need to ensure that these

36:32

treatments are being provided just to those

36:34

who need them and that they aren't misdiagnosing

36:37

patients.

36:38

Ruby began identifying as male

36:40

at thirteen years old. Now

36:42

twenty one, she'd been planning to have

36:44

surgery to remove her breasts. But

36:47

in May, she made the decision to come off

36:49

testosterone and de transition to

36:51

identify as

36:52

female, her sex at birth.

36:54

Stories about young people who

36:57

regret their decision to transition have

36:59

been well publicized in recent years. They

37:01

often say that as children, they weren't

37:04

capable of consenting to treatments with lifelong

37:06

consequences that they couldn't truly

37:08

comprehend. Others say

37:10

they wish clinicians had spent more time looking

37:13

into their other mental health issues

37:15

before recommending medical transition.

37:18

One of these young women spoke with Sky

37:20

News. Ruby now feels her eating

37:22

disorder was more of a factor than she first

37:24

realized in her gender 4.

37:27

None of the therapists that I spoke to

37:30

brought that up. They didn't think that it

37:32

was linked. Do

37:35

you?

37:35

I think so yes because it they're

37:38

both kind of based in how

37:40

I feel about my

37:41

body. So I've seen

37:43

similarities between the two. There's currently

37:45

no data for how many in the trans community

37:48

de transition, and to talk about

37:50

it can be viewed as transphobic. But

37:52

people like Ruby say more discussion is

37:55

needed, as well as more options

37:58

for people with gender

37:59

dysphoria. Accounts

38:01

like these have served as confirmation for

38:03

those concerned that young people

38:05

are not getting the support they need. At

38:08

the same time, they've been a source of

38:10

deep frustration to many trans advocates

38:12

who say that regret is rare.

38:15

And that we should trust kids to know that they

38:17

are who they say they are rather than

38:19

putting them through months or years long evaluations.

38:22

What complicates all of this is that the protocols

38:25

for youth gender care are so

38:27

new. The current president of

38:29

W. Path, doctor Marcy Bowers, sites

38:32

a figure that about eighty percent

38:34

of the research on youth gender medicine

38:36

has been done in just the last ten years.

38:39

And though there are currently no authoritative long

38:42

term studies about the phenomenon of

38:44

de transition, nor about the overall

38:46

effectiveness of some of these treatments in minors.

38:49

Finland, Sweden, and the UK are

38:51

all currently reevaluating their youth

38:53

gender treatments and calling for

38:56

more resources

38:57

more studies and tighter protocols

38:59

to be put in place. Unpleasant

39:02

as adolescents is. I mean,

39:04

I hated adolescents. I

39:06

do not romanticize adolescence. I

39:08

think it's a dreadful time.

39:10

I remember times of pure joy when I was

39:13

with my friends and I remember fun.

39:15

If you ask me, do you want to go back to being thirteen

39:17

tomorrow and live it all again? I would say absolutely

39:19

bloody not. I want to say exactly where I

39:21

am. But I do think that it is

39:23

a necessary part of our development. Rowling

39:26

told me that watching this sharp rise

39:29

in youth transition, especially

39:31

the rise among young females, started

39:33

to feel like a particularly feminist concern

39:36

and something that resonated with her

39:38

from her own

39:39

childhood. I grew up

39:41

in what I would say was quite a misogynistic household.

39:45

Like all young girls, I grew up with

39:47

certain standards of beauty and

39:50

ideals of femininity. And

39:52

I felt I didn't fit into either of those groups.

39:54

I didn't feel particularly feminine, and I certainly

39:56

didn't feel you know, that I

39:58

looked the way I was supposed to look. I

40:00

looked very androgynous eleven and twelve,

40:03

I had short hair, and I can

40:05

certainly remember in adolescence feeling

40:08

acutely anxious. I think this

40:10

is so common. In fact, I

40:13

I think I know more women who have felt it than

40:15

not. I felt very, very anxious

40:17

about my changing body. Because

40:20

you become aware it's attracting

40:23

scrutiny that you don't welcome. You

40:25

know, I can remember the comments about

40:27

your body. The difficulty

40:30

of dealing with periods, period

40:32

shaming, particularly from boys at school,

40:34

this sort of squeamish fascination that

40:36

young men have with female bodies. That

40:39

is a mixture of disgust and desire.

40:41

It's very difficult to cope with that.

40:44

Can I question my sexuality? I

40:46

I'm I'm thinking, well, I can tell my friends are pretty.

40:48

Does that mean I'm gay? Which

40:51

I think is very

40:52

common. I grew up to be a straight woman.

40:54

But I've never forgotten that feeling

40:56

of anxiety around my body.

40:58

So is it position that it's too big of a decision

41:01

essentially for a child to make

41:04

to transition and experience these long

41:06

term consequences that they care at comprehend.

41:08

Personally, I don't leave even

41:10

a fourteen year old. Can truly

41:13

understand what the loss of their fertility

41:15

is. At fourteen, if you'd said to me,

41:17

do you want children? I'd TERF no. Don't worry. But

41:20

it has been the

41:22

most joyful, wonderful

41:25

thing in my life. That doesn't mean I think everyone

41:27

should have

41:27

kids. It doesn't mean I think to be

41:29

a woman you need to have kids. I'm talking very personally

41:31

4 me my children have been

41:33

an unmatched joy and I wouldn't

41:36

change a thing. And I couldn't

41:38

have comprehended that at fourteen. I would have had

41:40

no idea what I was giving up. And

41:42

yet as I sat with Rowling and listened

41:44

to her views about youth transition,

41:47

It was clear that they aren't black and

41:49

white. My feeling is

41:51

and it's a feeling that was strongly expressed

41:53

in the porter books that

41:55

as many diverse life experiences as

42:00

possible should be explored

42:03

and expressed. And

42:06

having felt like an outsider in several

42:08

different ways in my life,

42:10

I

42:12

have a real feeling for the underdog

42:15

and

42:15

I have a real feeling for people who feel they

42:17

don't fit and I see that

42:20

cutely in the, particularly among younger trans people,

42:22

I can understand that feeling only too

42:24

well. But seeing this recent surge

42:26

in numbers seemed like something worth

42:29

questioning soberly. Gender 4

42:31

exists. It causes massive

42:34

distress.

42:35

I know it's real. And I know

42:37

there will be, I believe, a minority

42:39

of people for whom this will be

42:41

a solution. But in

42:43

the numbers we're currently seeing, particularly

42:46

of young people coming forward, I

42:48

find cause for doubt and cause

42:50

for concern. So

42:56

I did what I always tend to do when

42:58

in that situation, so I I read a ton of

43:00

books. That is my

43:01

instinct. I if I'm interested.

43:03

Ruling said that she went out and bought some of

43:05

the big best selling memoirs by trans

43:07

authors to this stunt right in

43:09

movements. So Jacob Tobias, Sissy,

43:11

Andrea Long Chew, Brilliant

43:13

writer, females, gender games, the trouble with

43:15

men. She read essays, is gender fluid.

43:18

And academic literature from influential

43:20

thinkers like Judith Butler. And I'm

43:22

reading countless blogs and articles

43:25

you're trying to have your views challenged. Completely

43:27

because I really want to understand what

43:30

is the thinking through person experience

43:33

but also the the

43:34

philosophy, the ideology. I'm

43:36

I'm looking at this, I'm thinking, am I missing something?

43:43

We'll be right back.

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com slash witch trials.

45:08

Hi there, listener. My name is Nelly Boles.

45:10

I'm a writer for the free press. Every

45:13

Friday, I publish a column I call

45:15

TERF, where I run

45:17

down the big and small news stories of

45:19

the week, while cracking jokes at my own

45:22

and others expense. Most

45:24

of my own. Anyways,

45:26

it's fun, but it's also informative

45:29

and dare I say occasionally provocative.

45:33

At the free press, we publish investigative

45:35

stories, provocative opinion pieces,

45:38

and podcasts like this one. The

45:40

goal or at least my goal is

45:43

to surprise our readers and to follow

45:45

my curiosity. If you're

45:47

curious, if you're interested it. Come on.

45:49

You're interested. Right? Come check us

45:51

out and become a subscriber today.

45:53

At v f fee dot

45:56

com.

46:07

Over the months and years, that Rowling

46:10

was immersing herself in queer theory

46:12

and memoirs of different trans thinkers.

46:15

This conflict between some feminists

46:17

and trans activists continued to

46:19

escalate. The debate's due to start

46:22

in an hour, and suddenly protesters come

46:24

in wearing masks.

46:31

We're putting you on event tonight. We've got all these

46:33

young people in bandanas trying to force

46:35

their way in. They TERF

46:37

covered. They're actually being aggressive

46:39

and violent.

46:39

No. She pushed me when she she

46:43

fucking gone. I pray,

46:45

honey.

46:46

In the past few years, as the feminists

46:48

have tried to organize meetings and debates

46:50

to discuss everything from women's sports,

46:53

to self ID, to the proper treatment

46:55

of gender 4 in kids. They've

46:58

been met with protesters trying to shut them

47:00

down.

47:04

These are trans activists protesting outside

47:06

a feminist meeting They're shouting

47:08

TERF. It stands for trans exclusionary

47:11

radical feminists. Across

47:15

the country, clashes are erupting between

47:17

the two groups.

47:18

These activists say that trans

47:23

women are women. Full

47:24

stop. And to them,

47:26

to engage in a debate at all,

47:29

is to engage in transphobic hate

47:31

speech And

47:38

then we come to the famous two word

47:40

slogan, the stock phrase, no debate,

47:42

no debate, no debate. We hear it

47:44

all the time. That alarms

47:47

me. Really alarms me.

47:50

I can't think of a pure instance of

47:52

authoritarianism than no debate.

47:54

In fact, That is the attitude

47:56

of the fundamentalist. You

47:59

may not challenge my ideas. That

48:01

makes you evil. I am righteous.

48:04

I don't have to explain my righteousness. And

48:07

I am entitled

48:09

4 to bully you, to harass

48:11

you, to silence you, to

48:13

take away your livelihood,

48:16

all the way up to attacking you. I've

48:18

had things thrown at me. I've been accused

48:20

of things I have never done or said.

48:23

People seem to have no concern about

48:25

evidence or even about

48:27

libel.

48:28

Many of the feminists labeled as terfs

48:31

have been attacked and received death threats

48:33

along with accusations that

48:35

despite what they say, They are actually

48:38

Nazis and fascists.

48:47

There have been physical assaults, a

48:49

woman called Maria McLaughlin. She

48:51

was at speakers' corner in London, which is an

48:54

infamous site for freedom of speech. It's where

48:56

people can go, say whatever they like pretty much.

48:58

And she went there to a feminist

49:00

meeting and she was physically assaulted By

49:07

a trans woman called Tara Wolf,

49:09

who was convicted of assault. Who

49:12

had said online before going to that

49:14

meeting, I wanna fuck up some terfs. You

49:16

know, when I cover this

49:18

subject, I often say that

49:20

afterwards, I need to relax

49:23

by covering something uncontroversial like

49:25

Israel Palestine or abortion.

49:27

Right? It's extremely frott.

49:31

This is Michelle Goldberg, reporter

49:33

and columnist at The New York Times. And

49:36

one reason it's extremely fraught is

49:38

that you have two groups of people who

49:40

feel, legitimately feel extremely

49:43

embattled. You wrote about

49:45

this conflict in the New Yorker in twenty

49:47

4. In an article called

49:50

what is a woman. And even

49:52

back then, you talked about how intense

49:54

the threats and intimidation tactics

49:56

TERF. Towards feminists who were voicing

49:59

these views. You quote

50:01

some of the online threads in the article, which

50:03

said things like kill terfs

50:05

twenty 4. How about

50:07

slowly and horrendously murdered terfs

50:10

in saw like torture machines and contraptions?

50:13

A young blogger holding a knife posted

50:15

a selfie with a caption fetch me

50:17

a

50:17

terf. Such threats you

50:19

write have become so common that

50:22

radical feminist websites have taken

50:24

to cataloging them. Yeah. I mean,

50:26

I think that, you know, those quotes that you

50:28

just read, I don't think those people aren't

50:30

representative of the trans

50:32

rights movement. But

50:34

nevertheless, there's a lot of feminists

50:37

who feel like aggrieved

50:40

at people kind of constantly saying if you don't

50:42

recognize me as a woman, I'm gonna repue.

50:44

They just they feel like there is this

50:47

very vicious online dialogue

50:51

in which a really

50:53

brute sort of misogyny is

50:56

dressed up in progressive clothes. And

50:58

so, you know, to add insult to injury, you're

51:00

not even supposed to complain about it within feminist

51:03

species.

51:04

It should be possible to have a discussion

51:07

where there are a range of different people

51:09

who can enter into a dialogue

51:12

about this.

51:13

These feminists believe that their views are

51:15

not only inside the bounds of respectable

51:18

discourse, but also that the accusations

51:20

that they are violent transphobes feels

51:23

less like a sincere criticism

51:25

and more like an attempt to smear them.

51:27

So that no one will listen to them. I mean,

51:29

what we're seeing in the world is more and more

51:32

people shutting down free speech. You're

51:35

sensuring ideas. You're shutting down

51:37

controversy. And in a Democratic

51:39

society, that's how we

51:41

come to a better understanding of each other.

51:44

And beyond just online insults, this

51:47

approach from activists has had real life consequences.

51:50

Women expressing these views have lost their jobs.

51:53

In publishing, in academia, in

51:55

journalism, and the arts. Women

51:58

athletes have been dropped by advertisers, authors

52:01

dropped from book deals, For voicing

52:03

her concerns, doctor Erica Anderson,

52:06

a trans woman who's helped dozens of kids

52:08

medically transition, has been labeled

52:10

a TERF. And disinvited from public

52:12

events. Michelle, from

52:15

your reporting on this over the years, what

52:17

is the best way to understand

52:20

the sight of the protesters in this conflict.

52:23

The people who are calling to silence these debates,

52:25

where are they coming from? And

52:27

what do they feel is at stake in all

52:29

of this?

52:30

Well, look, what's the stake for a lot of people is

52:32

just the ability to live their

52:35

lives with any sort of dignity

52:37

and security. And again, I I just I wanna

52:40

emphasize, and I hope this makes it into the podcast.

52:42

That that is why I think temperature

52:45

of this is so high. Because, you know, especially in the

52:47

United States, trans people are

52:49

so embattled. You know, you have

52:52

these sweeping oppressive

52:54

laws. One hundred and nineteen

52:56

anti transgender bills have been introduced

52:59

in state legislatures this year

53:00

alone.

53:01

Doing

53:01

the state of Alabama after the governor seen

53:03

their way through Ohio's lightest Arkansas

53:05

passing a bill blocking gender affirming

53:07

care for trans. Act

53:08

us are calling to move an attack on the LGBTQ

53:11

community. Despite the US supreme

53:14

court ruling that protects transgender Americans

53:16

from discrimination, And despite president

53:19

Biden overturning the Trump era policies

53:21

against trans healthcare and military service,

53:24

there have been hundreds of proposed or recently

53:26

passed laws that have sought to limit

53:28

trans people's access to bathrooms, their

53:31

participation in girls and women's sports,

53:33

and to restrict medical transition for

53:35

minors. And some of the laws

53:38

come with severe penalties. As

53:40

week, Alabama became the third state of the nation

53:42

to pass a measure stricting gender affirming

53:45

care for transgender and non binary

53:46

youth, but it's the first state to actually

53:49

impose criminal penalties. The law

53:51

would make providing that care a family

53:53

punishable by up to ten years in prison.

53:56

Additionally, online, just

53:59

as there are some trans advocates who send

54:01

violent and harassing threats, toward the people

54:03

they call terfs. There are also

54:05

many others, often coming from the right

54:07

and the alt right, who send violent and

54:09

harassing threats towards trans activists

54:12

and their allies. Some based

54:14

on accusations that any attempt

54:16

to teach kids about trans identities is

54:19

actually a smoke screen for a desire

54:21

to sexually exploit young children.

54:24

And in this climate, many

54:26

activists feel that Feminists calling

54:28

for open dialogue and good faith debate

54:31

are really just opening them up

54:33

to greater harm. I think that what

54:35

is so painful for them

54:38

is that, you know, they feel like these

54:41

issues of daily

54:44

survival are being treated

54:46

as secondary to culture

54:48

war flash points. You know, around these

54:50

kind of relatively few

54:52

handful of cases involving women's sports.

54:55

These few cases where there's really hard

54:57

calls about things like prisons

55:00

or domestic violence shelters.

55:02

And people that I've spoken to feel

55:05

that the intense focus on these issues

55:08

is it self kind of undermining them.

55:10

Right? That, like, they feel so under siege.

55:13

And when people are really scared and they're really

55:15

under siege, then they don't wanna have

55:17

a kind of searching probing

55:20

conversation about the legitimacy

55:23

of of their identity. For kind of obvious

55:25

reasons.

55:25

Yes. And they don't wanna hear debates about,

55:27

you know, nuanced issues when they

55:29

feel like they're fighting for basic

55:31

rights. Right. I mean, I think you'll often hear

55:33

people say, you know, I'm not gonna debate my basic

55:36

humanity. And and part of the difficulty

55:38

is that there are indeed certain issues which

55:40

we have sort of decided somewhat

55:42

collectively with some sort of consensus are

55:45

beyond the realm of of debate. And

55:47

I think that part of what is

55:49

so difficult about this issue is that there are certain

55:51

people who think that this kind of consensus

55:53

can be imposed, maybe

55:56

as opposed to evolve organically. And

55:59

so they're sort of desperately trying

56:01

to shore it

56:03

up. In the hopes I think that if

56:05

they can, they will enjoy

56:07

the same sort of assumed

56:10

protection as other groups whose

56:12

rights we've decided are not up for

56:15

public conversation. I think the problem is

56:17

that we don't actually have a consensus about

56:20

what gender means or what

56:22

makes someone a boy or girl or woman or

56:24

man. And so you still

56:26

have to talk these things out and have these

56:29

conversations.

56:30

And I think there are plenty of trans people

56:32

who believe that, but

56:35

the people who are policing the discourse

56:38

have maybe outsize visibility.

56:42

Okay. So let's go back to twenty sixteen, twenty

56:45

seventeen. Mhmm. You obviously are a very

56:47

public person. You are not shy in general

56:49

about speaking your mind. And it seems

56:51

like you've had really strong views about

56:53

what you were reading and you had done a ton

56:55

of reading and research and

56:57

thinking, Did you want to join

56:59

the public conversation at the time?

57:01

Did I want to join the public conversation?

57:04

Yes. Why

57:06

did I want to join it because I was watching

57:08

women being shut

57:09

down? And it was as

57:11

though there was no woman perfect enough

57:13

to say her piece. If she's

57:15

a regular woman with no particular platform,

57:18

she's abigot. That's that Europe good.

57:21

If she's an informed woman, who

57:23

is working in a sphere where this will really

57:25

have an impact. And for example, I saw a

57:28

prison governor speaking out. This is

57:30

not okay. These are already traumatized

57:32

women. Huge abuse

57:34

hold at a shut up. You don't really understand

57:36

what you know about being a trans woman. It

57:38

seemed there was always a way to

57:40

shut down women's voices. People

57:44

are terrified terrified

57:47

of speaking up. So

57:49

I really was starting to feel

57:52

this moral obligation. I

57:54

knew what was coming, but I thought

57:57

other people, there are people who, if

57:59

I'm honest, probably could speak, and don't

58:01

want to speak. They, you know, they're not gonna

58:03

lose their livelihoods. But there

58:06

are a ton of women who are

58:08

being forced not to speak because they

58:10

literally won't make rent. So

58:13

I actually wanted to join the conversation

58:15

and speak up earlier than I did. And

58:17

I was not not held

58:20

back. Not, you

58:22

know, I'm not saying that I couldn't have done

58:24

it anyway. But there were people

58:26

close to me who were begging me not

58:28

to do it. I think out

58:30

of concern of what that would mean, they'd watched

58:32

what had happened to other public

58:34

figures. And there was

58:37

certainly a feeling of this is not a

58:39

wise thing to do. Don't do it. So

58:42

I'm living in this state. Once

58:45

again, actually, I'm living in

58:47

what I feel is a duplicitous state.

58:50

I have this massive concern. I'm

58:52

watching women being shut

58:55

down and bullied. Their

58:57

employers being targeted by a movement

58:59

that I see as authoritarian, illiberal.

59:03

I'm hugely concerned about young people.

59:06

Often the kind of young people who found refuge

59:08

in my books. So, you know, there's

59:10

a feeling of empathy there because I was one

59:13

of those young people myself. And

59:15

I'm absolutely can say that

59:17

I was living in a state of real tension similar

59:20

to when I'm planning to leave my ex husband

59:22

because although I am not physically in

59:24

danger, I feel

59:26

I am lying by a mission. I should

59:28

speak up. I feel the right thing here

59:31

is to try and force this conversation

59:33

because on behalf

59:35

of people I'm seeing shutdown who

59:37

do not have my I

59:39

mean, let's face it, insulation, right, from

59:41

It is insulation. It is the privileged

59:44

white woman apps absolutely. I am

59:46

protected in ways I never dreamt I would be

59:48

protected. Of course, I'm also exposed

59:50

to threats that other people sometimes aren't

59:52

exposed to.

59:53

But it's more than that.

59:56

Whatever happens, if everyone decides

59:58

you TERF an evil witch, we will never buy your books

1:00:01

again. I can feed my family. We all

1:00:03

know. I'm I'm fine. My

1:00:05

world doesn't crash. My kids don't

1:00:07

go hungry. I have I once lived

1:00:09

that life. That was the

1:00:12

potential of making a bad financial decision

1:00:14

and spending two pounds too much one week. So

1:00:18

I reached a point of high tension and

1:00:21

I have to say something. You're saying

1:00:23

you felt obligated. Yeah. They did come

1:00:25

a point where I felt obligated because

1:00:27

I felt you know, I'm being contacted

1:00:29

by women. And by the way, these women aren't

1:00:31

even the same to me, do it. Do it. You do it. You would

1:00:33

that no one's trying to coerce me into it. It's

1:00:36

just that I'm having these conversations and the

1:00:38

climate of fear was was

1:00:40

scaring me more than speaking out. You

1:00:42

know, what are we letting happen

1:00:44

here? This is insane. That there's

1:00:46

this much fear around a woman,

1:00:50

arguing that she has the right to describe her

1:00:52

life and hard body in

1:00:54

any way she chooses. This is insanely

1:00:56

regressive. But also,

1:00:58

I did reach a point where I thought I can't keep living

1:01:01

with myself if I don't say

1:01:02

something. So it was personal as well, I have

1:01:04

to speak. I just have to.

1:01:10

If you me. I did not

1:01:12

feel any sense of joy in that.

1:01:14

I didn't think you'd be. I can't wait for

1:01:16

this. This is gonna be amazing. I

1:01:18

really thought this is gonna be

1:01:21

horrible,

1:01:22

but I've gotta do it. I cannot look myself

1:01:24

in the mirror if I don't do it. So

1:01:27

when so

1:01:29

I did. More

1:01:39

to come next time.

1:01:48

You've been listening to the witch trials of

1:01:51

j k Rowling. Produced by Andy

1:01:53

Mills, Matthew Bowl and

1:01:55

me, Megan Phelps Tropper, and

1:01:57

brought to you by the free press. Our

1:01:59

sincere thanks to you for listening and

1:02:02

we would love to listen to you too. If

1:02:04

you have any thoughts or questions for us,

1:02:06

you can send us an email at

1:02:08

which trials at TERF p

1:02:11

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