0:02

From Wize Mentoring is The Wize Guys

0:04

Podcast , a show about accounting

0:07

and bookkeeping practice owners and the

0:09

many stories , lessons, and tips

0:11

from their experience of transitioning

0:13

from a time- poor practice to a business

0:15

that runs without them . I hope you

0:17

enjoy and subscribe !

0:23

Hi , Thomas , thank you again for being

0:25

with me here today . Actually , this is a

0:27

mentor's edition , so it's special

0:30

. For those who don't know Thomas,

0:32

he's actually a Wize

0:35

Mentor , apart from being a practice

0:37

owner and being in his own practice , and

0:39

so we wanted to talk about that

0:41

, because , before being a mentor , he

0:44

started as a member , just

0:46

like every other member but became

0:48

someone special to our team . So I

0:50

wanted to go through that story . Basically , let's

0:53

start from the beginning if you are

0:55

happy to do it . Some backstory

0:57

when did the business start ? Where

0:59

did the business start ? How did it start ?

1:02

Well , the firm started in 1993

1:05

. So roughly about 31 years

1:07

ago . It started with my parents . They

1:10

have a bit of an interesting backstory . They

1:12

immigrated from Laos . They

1:15

were actually in a refugee camp for about

1:17

six or nine years of their life . So

1:19

the reason for that was

1:21

because they were just holding out for Australia

1:24

. You could go to America , you could go to

1:26

France , but they waited in that

1:28

refugee camp for Australia and

1:30

I guess we all have to thank grandpa for making

1:32

the right choice . But that brought a lot

1:34

of challenges . They couldn't speak English . They

1:37

were put into years 11 and 12

1:39

. But like most stories

1:41

of immigrants , they wanted

1:44

to make their way through Australia,

1:46

and with a lot of help and

1:48

support they studied accounting

1:51

despite not knowing much English , they just had

1:53

to write , memorize textbooks,

1:55

and make their way through examinations

1:58

and got their tax agents and

2:00

practicing licenses and began

2:02

their firm in 1993 . You

2:05

know , since then it's been a long journey . They

2:11

didn't have a background in business . They knew the trade of accounting

2:13

but they didn't have a background in business . They didn't necessarily have mentorship and

2:15

guidance . So throughout my whole life,

2:18

I would just see them work really

2:20

, really hard . Actually I wouldn't see them

2:22

much at all . To be honest , if

2:24

I wanted to see them , I had to go and hang

2:26

out at the office , right ?

2:27

So that was your playground

2:29

, with playing with staples

2:31

and pens and paper ?

2:34

Yeah , just staying under their desk playing on my gameb

2:36

oy .

2:36

So I

2:39

was a bit of a spoiled kid , but that was my

2:41

world .

2:41

Accounting is , to me , a second

2:43

home kid

2:47

, but that was my world . Accounting is , to me , a second home and I got to see how hard

2:49

they work throughout the years and , if anything , it put me off of

2:51

the accounting industry . So it

2:53

wasn't until much

2:55

later, and having done an accounting

2:57

degree , having had exposure

2:59

to running businesses on my own , when

3:02

I looked at TMS I saw

3:04

that there was actually a lot that could

3:06

be done there , but I didn't know what it was and

3:09

I guess we'll go to that next part . And

3:11

that's where we met Wize and we met Ed

3:13

.

3:14

Wow . So yeah , that's where I wanted

3:16

to go . Which year did you come into

3:18

the equation ?

3:19

Oh , to be honest , I've always been part of the TMS

3:22

equation when I was nine

3:24

years old , I was doing classes and

3:26

doing coding reports .

3:28

And ?

3:28

If I finish a whole box of coding reports

3:30

, that's 10 bucks . So if I finish five

3:32

boxes I get 50 bucks , and I had $50

3:35

from red envelopes so I could buy Halo

3:37

1 on Xbox .

3:40

That's awesome .

3:41

You know it's always been in and out . I've always just

3:44

been part of that trade . But officially I

3:46

came into this after university

3:48

in 2017 . Just

3:50

started as an administrator

3:52

, just helping out in the office . But

3:55

it's usually from those positions that you see

3:57

that there are a lot of areas

3:59

that could be improved . But I

4:01

didn't have the knowledge . So I was

4:03

at an impasse either I leave the

4:05

firm and go work for another firm to

4:08

get ideas , then come back to

4:10

TMS , or there had to be

4:12

another solution , and

4:14

that was the solution . We went looking

4:16

for a mentor and we found Ed

4:19

. You know I looked at a lot of different

4:21

mentors , but well

4:24

, I've always heard of his name growing up

4:26

. He actually came to visit our first

4:29

office in Cabramatta and

4:31

one of the comments my parents told me that

4:33

he said to us was you overcapitalized

4:36

on this office . I didn't understand what

4:38

that meant , but my parents explained it to

4:40

me . You put a lot of furniture

4:43

and fittings and you've got nice computers

4:45

.

4:47

So you had really nice computers there .

4:49

However , which way it was in 1993

4:52

, right ? So I've always heard of his name growing

4:54

up . He's always had a reputation

4:57

for being a business person

4:59

and not a technician , and

5:02

that was a controversial path to take

5:04

back then . But you look

5:06

at where it is today . Channanela

5:08

is where it is and it's

5:10

had 20 offices and 160

5:13

staff and TMS

5:15

was really just a team of technicians

5:17

running a flat model when it

5:19

was time to actually learn from

5:22

a mentor . I think it made a lot of sense

5:24

that we hit it up and

5:27

I had a chance to speak to him for the first

5:29

time after hearing his name , you

5:31

know since I was a kid and I

5:33

knew this was the person that had to teach me how

5:36

to be a business person and yeah , so

5:38

I have to really thank him and thank my parents

5:40

for , you know , working together to give

5:43

me this opportunity . So that's amazing .

5:43

And actually , now that you mentioned , that my parents , for you know , working together to give me this opportunity

5:46

. So that's A ctually , now that you mentioned that , my

5:49

next question is that it had to

5:51

do a lot with the reason

5:53

that you became a mentor years later . So

5:55

I wanted to get into that . So you

5:57

went from being part of the firm

5:59

, being in the firm , seeing the mistakes

6:01

your parents were making , from

6:04

being inspired by that , getting

6:06

a mentor , which is what most

6:09

of our wise mentors have done as well . Now

6:12

you're here , a mentor . What inspired

6:15

you ? How did you start your mentoring

6:17

journey as well ?

6:19

Sure , when we started working with Ed , I

6:22

guess there were areas where he

6:24

was happy with the way we implemented

6:26

things , impressed with aspects

6:29

where we were willing to innovate

6:31

and challenge ourselves, and saw

6:33

that we had a bit of tenacity

6:35

in TMS to implement things . Before

6:45

I became a mentor , he would just throw inquiries that he was getting from other accounting

6:47

firms through to me to answer and just test me . I guess you know this person's asking

6:49

me about practice ignition . Do you mind talking to them

6:51

on the phone about it ? Oh , this person's

6:54

asking me about carbon . Do you mind talking

6:56

to them about it ? So I

6:58

guess through those little moments it

7:01

was him being a mentor

7:03

and building me up to be someone that

7:05

could actually help others properly

7:08

within WISE . You know thinking

7:10

about how much effort and

7:12

how much wisdom he has

7:14

given to TMS . You know we

7:17

have a fully running team . It's running remotely

7:19

. We're averaging about

7:21

one to two inquiries from

7:23

our marketing per day and by May

7:26

it should be about four or five per day

7:28

. But even before we did the marketing

7:30

, how he helped build

7:32

up and advise us in

7:35

structuring our teams and

7:37

roles was always just to hold and his advice

7:39

off and

7:41

trying to grow and add levels , get

7:43

the foundation right , otherwise everything's

7:45

going to go crumbling down . And even

7:48

now , five years later , under

7:56

Ed's mentorship , his lessons are all playing out . I really respect how much he and appreciate how much

7:58

he has helped us , and I also appreciate the fact that when you

8:01

teach other people , you're forced to

8:03

distill these ideas

8:05

and lessons that you have and

8:07

explain it in a simple way to people

8:09

, and sometimes people don't understand

8:12

things the way you've heard it and

8:14

you understood it , so you have to rephrase it . You have

8:16

to change the way it's communicated

8:18

and that's something that I have to do daily

8:21

with my own staff communicated and that's something that I have to do

8:23

daily with my own staff . And when I get to work with firm owners

8:25

and get them to understand those

8:27

very same concepts , it

8:34

makes me feel rewarded . It feels rewarding when I can see it doesn't matter if it's an accountant

8:36

or an administrator who understands the concepts and then performs their role better

8:38

, or it be an owner

8:40

or a shareholder who understands these

8:42

concepts and then are

8:44

able to get more out of their business . I

8:46

feel satisfied where I can share

8:48

knowledge and then people get it

8:51

and then they do something with it

8:53

. I guess it's just part

8:55

of my character or personality that

8:57

I enjoy doing so . Joining

9:00

Wize Mentoring has been , it felt

9:02

, really natural to me . Teaching

9:07

people doesn't feel unnatural or uncomfortable to me and , if anything , what I see

9:09

and practice coaching

9:12

and mentoring other firms , in turn,

9:14

makes me a better general manager for

9:16

my own team and

9:18

mentor and guide my team the

9:20

same way I would mentor another

9:23

owner that we're working with . So

9:25

a lot of reasons , but mainly it's a love

9:27

for teaching . When Ed

9:30

talks about what an end goal looks like

9:32

in a firm

9:34

or a business , what happens when

9:36

you're past being a senior accountant

9:38

or a senior client manager ? What happens

9:40

when you're past becoming a chief technical officer or a senior client manager ? What happens when

9:42

you're past becoming a chief technical officer or a chief executive

9:45

officer At the very end

9:47

of it is being a chairman of the firm . And

9:50

what is the role of a chairman

9:52

? It's partly it's telling the

9:54

CEO to pull their head in

9:56

at times , but it's really to mentor

9:58

and guide the firm . So to

10:01

me, I feel like this is the most valuable skill

10:03

to practice , and you

10:05

know any wise firms out there or

10:08

firm owners , who feel like they have something to

10:10

teach and have a passion for it should

10:12

consider joining and becoming a wise mentor

10:14

as well .

10:15

Yeah , I love that you said that because I

10:17

was actually going to ask you . So

10:19

there was this Thomas

10:22

who was little Thomas , who was seeing

10:24

their , their stressed parents working

10:26

a lot , putting so many hours

10:29

doing only technical stuff , being

10:31

grinders , not using

10:33

their firm to the fullest , basically . So

10:36

what would you say to

10:38

Thomas , who was in the

10:40

business as well , seeing everything

10:43

happening ? Because there are many Thomas out

10:45

there that do not realize that they're

10:47

in a position that they probably

10:49

need to change . What would you

10:51

say to them ? What would an advice be ?

10:54

Just the shortest advice I could give is

10:56

to find a mentor . Like,

10:58

stop stumbling through

11:01

the dark by yourself . It's not

11:03

that you don't have the skills

11:05

or you don't have the brains or you don't have

11:07

the character for it , it's just a

11:10

mentor is a key . It's

11:12

the key to a solution . You can be

11:14

great . You can figure things out on your

11:16

own and go online

11:18

and learn things , but

11:20

what a mentor does is they

11:23

will tell you where you should be looking and

11:26

what you should be working on because

11:28

they know and have a taste of

11:30

what it should be like . So my

11:33

very simple advice is just to find a mentor

11:35

. Yes , you're great , you're good , you're an entrepreneur

11:37

. You can figure things out on your own , but stop

11:40

stumbling through the dark . That's not

11:43

how successful people operate

11:45

. Successful people find

11:48

help . They find experts

11:50

. They find people who have traveled a path . For

11:53

example , you could be the greatest fisherman

11:55

, but if you go to an area you never fished

11:57

before , you're not going to have success

11:59

. You're going to have trial and error . You

12:01

might have a good sense about where you should fish

12:03

, but that's not going to compare

12:06

to the level of success you would have if

12:08

you were to say , hire a charter

12:11

to take you around and show you . That's

12:13

exactly what I would say to little Thomas

12:16

find a teacher . I did find a teacher

12:19

, but if I had to say something , to find

12:21

a teacher earlier , find a business teacher

12:23

a lot earlier , yeah , so you could

12:25

practice it .

12:26

That's what I would say to people yeah

12:28

, from 1993 to 2017

12:31

, they didn't

12:33

find a teacher technically

12:35

, so they spent all that time

12:37

looking for answers , stressing out

12:39

not being home to their

12:42

kids , which is very , very you

12:44

know it's not what it should be because

12:46

you would love to spend time at home and

12:48

seize every day . If

12:50

you don't have kids , you know you have activities

12:53

. You want to spend time doing other things

12:55

. I wanted to ask you because

12:57

you're a mentor now , so you see it from

12:59

a different optic . So I usually

13:02

ask in the Wize Factor Chat this question . But I wanted to ask

13:04

you from a different optic . So I usually ask in the Wize Factor Chat this question . But I wanted to ask you from a different perspective

13:06

. You work with many mentees

13:09

, with many firm owners that

13:11

you get with them

13:13

coaching calls , monthly

13:16

masterclasses all of these calls

13:18

where you speak with them

13:20

for private conversations

13:22

most of them , where

13:25

you speak with them force private conversations , most of them . But you talk to them

13:27

about the phrase that we have at Wise that's a staple phrase

13:30

that it's building a business that runs without

13:32

you . How do you feel like they

13:34

feel about this phrase ? Are

13:36

they excited ? Are your mentees

13:39

scared ? Do they feel

13:41

like it's too far away ? Do they feel like

13:43

they're almost there ? How do they feel about that

13:45

?

13:47

Yeah , look , you've got people of various

13:49

characters and stages within their

13:51

firms . There's a broad spectrum

13:53

of people . You've got people who understand

13:56

that concept and

13:58

, at the same time , they understand that they

14:00

have to take risks and challenge themselves

14:02

and do uncomfortable things in

14:04

order to become a better leader and

14:07

then implement what we're talking about . These

14:09

individuals are rare and the

14:12

ones that I work with that are like this are

14:14

very enjoyable to work with because they

14:17

travel very fast . One

14:19

year compared to the next year

14:22

is substantial growth , not

14:24

just in terms of revenue , but in terms of their team

14:26

, and how the

14:28

dynamics of their structures change . They

14:31

were what we would call operators , but

14:34

you've got a subset of people who want

14:36

to achieve it , but they

14:38

can't deal with the discomforts of

14:41

the changes and for

14:44

those individuals , it's not like

14:46

an intellectual challenge . They get it . They

14:48

get that you have to build a business

14:50

that runs without you , not for the

14:52

only reason just taking holidays , or

14:54

you know right ? It's a necessity

14:56

in the business to be able to scale

14:59

up your time so that you can work

15:01

on actually growing your business

15:03

and training people , because how

15:06

could they grow their business if they're trapped

15:08

within the day-to-day burning fires

15:10

that are happening ? But deep down they

15:13

have personal challenges . They have challenges

15:15

with dealing with people's confrontations

15:18

. They have challenges with technology

15:21

. They have challenges with

15:23

technology . They have challenges with marketing , whatever it might

15:25

be . They're coming up against things

15:28

that they can't quite wrap their personality

15:31

around and what I have

15:33

to do with them is I have to educate

15:35

them that you

15:37

have to work with people who are complementary to you

15:39

. Look , if you can't do it , that's fine

15:41

. You can only change so much

15:44

. But in saying that , you

15:46

have to find people for your firm that compliment

15:48

you , and that's really difficult . Oftentimes

15:50

this feeling of discomfort comes

15:53

because they don't want to give

15:55

up control over certain areas of their

15:57

business . And

16:00

then you have people who are

16:02

afraid of the idea of withdrawing from their

16:04

firm and they

16:07

have a discomfort in leading

16:09

and managing their firms . And I

16:12

have to say that it's really

16:14

hard for these individuals to be successful . It's

16:16

really hard for these individuals to be really

16:18

successful If you can't step outside of their

16:21

comfort zone . If

16:23

you can't see the intellectual

16:25

reasoning for why you need to withdraw

16:27

from their firm . Then those

16:30

individuals sort of have to ask themselves

16:32

that maybe running

16:34

a business is not for me , because

16:36

running a business is not for everyone . Okay

16:39

, if it was easy , then everyone

16:41

would do it and everyone would be millionaires . Okay

16:44

, if it was easy , then everyone would do it and everyone would

16:46

be millionaires . But

16:49

if certain individuals aren't willing to challenge themselves , make changes , change who they are,

16:51

and understand why they need to withdraw from their business so

16:53

that they can go and focus on bigger things

16:55

, then I have to say

16:58

those mentees I've worked with in the past

17:00

who fall into that category , their

17:02

battles are with themselves and their battles

17:04

are probably with the fact that maybe

17:06

running a business is not for me . The sort

17:09

of conclusions that we usually end up at

17:11

after , say , a year

17:13

and a half or a year of working with them is

17:15

I think I'm just going to sell the business

17:17

, I think I'm just going to get out of this and

17:20

not handle it anymore . So what

17:22

I have to say to these mentees is you

17:25

kind of have to assess where

17:27

you sit . Do you have the

17:29

courage to go and start

17:31

changing ? Do you have the ability

17:33

to just think and understand

17:35

how these things need

17:37

to be implemented ? Then if

17:40

you do , you're going to get a lot out

17:42

of working with a mentor and

17:44

if you understand the reasoning but

17:46

you're just struggling personally , you'd

17:48

still benefit because a mentor can bring the goodness

17:51

out of you and I'd

17:53

say the majority of the mentees I've worked with

17:55

have fallen into those first

17:57

two types . Now , honestly , there are

17:59

very few people who come to us and

18:01

they just can't be helped and

18:04

they can only do so much .

18:06

Yeah , and it's great that you bring this up

18:08

. I love everything that you said about

18:10

this because it's a huge topic and it

18:12

will resonate . You're either one

18:14

of these . You're either someone

18:16

who's more open to

18:19

delegating , more open

18:21

to letting go of control , more

18:23

open to building a business that

18:25

runs without you because you are confident

18:27

that it doesn't need you , that you've

18:29

done everything in your hands

18:32

for it not to need you , and

18:34

, on the other hand , we will run into

18:36

people who are probably realizing

18:39

that they need to sell . But

18:41

even if you need selling , you can

18:43

tell me better than anyone , Thomas , because

18:45

you've worked with firms that realize

18:48

that they want to sell , that they want to bail

18:50

, that they need

18:52

to take some steps towards

18:54

this . They cannot just get

18:56

everything in a box , lock it down,

18:58

and just go . There's a way to leave as

19:01

well , a smart way to leave .

19:03

Yeah , the problem is that they're

19:05

so challenged that they

19:07

probably couldn't even put the firm together , even

19:10

with help to get it into a state

19:12

where it could be sold . I mean , what

19:14

I'm saying is there are some people who are just not

19:16

cut out for it, and to be honest

19:18

, they probably have the right reason to be scared

19:20

of withdrawing from their firm . So

19:22

I know it's tough . Ed

19:25

said the very same words to me . If you took all

19:28

the money in the world and distributed it equally

19:30

amongst people , if you wait

19:32

long enough , eventually money is

19:34

going to end up piling up with

19:36

the very same people . You look at

19:38

everyone that is born . There

19:41

are some people who have a

19:43

natural sense for leadership , and

19:45

then some people who don't really have

19:47

a natural sense for leadership but they can learn it

19:49

, and then some people are just not cut

19:51

out for it . So what

19:53

I have to say to individuals is , when

19:55

you come to Wize and when you want to work with a

19:57

mentor , what you're really asking for is

20:00

you're asking to be taught leadership and

20:03

you're looking for an environment where you

20:05

can be in the presence and be

20:07

part of a group of other great leaders

20:09

and then learn from them . But you

20:12

need to be humble . You need to be able to soak

20:14

up what you're seeing . It's part of

20:16

being a business owner . Of course, it means having

20:18

confidence in yourself . But

20:20

sometimes this confidence can come out in arrogance

20:23

, and when you're arrogant and

20:26

you don't actually have the tools or the knowledge

20:28

to pull it off and not the leadership to pull

20:30

it off , then it's very hard to help

20:32

those individuals . But the majority

20:34

of my experiences have been with people who

20:36

want to change , and who want to do better . Why

20:39

did they even come to wise in the first place ?

20:41

That's the WizeF actor . That's exactly what

20:44

we talk about in this space because these

20:46

are people who really come to us and

20:48

they're extraordinary . They might be

20:50

lost , but what they know is that

20:52

they want and need to change for

20:55

a better life , to withdraw

20:57

from the business , even if they are not thinking

20:59

about that and just want free

21:02

weekends . You know they

21:04

are welcome . I wanted to ask you

21:06

our last question to close up this amazing

21:08

conversation , and it is do

21:11

you have any hobbies or

21:13

do you have any activities

21:15

that you like

21:17

to dedicate your free time to ? I

21:20

know one that's going to happen soon

21:22

and that's probably changing diapers , because

21:25

, as we speak , Thomas is

21:28

soon to have a baby , so

21:30

that's probably going to be one of your favorite activities

21:33

. Wonder or not ?

21:34

Yeah , I can't wait because , you know

21:36

, actually when I was 15 my sister

21:38

was born , so I had a bit

21:40

of experience changing diapers then . But

21:43

I can't even compare that because that's not being

21:45

a parent . So

21:47

you know , my husband's

21:49

been shopping on his marketplace

21:51

and say mom , no

21:54

, that's , you know , part of being a Wize Mentor

21:56

is freeing up my time . I

21:59

don't work on my Thursdays and Fridays because I want

22:01

to be a dad on

22:05

my Thursdays and Fridays because I want to be a dad , and that's something that I saw in my mentees

22:07

that if it was a common thing that they all wish they

22:09

had done , which it was to

22:11

have more time for their children . And

22:13

so I thought why don't I just live that

22:16

dream now ? Why don't I just set my time

22:18

up now and manage it better

22:20

so that I can be a dad on

22:22

Thursdays and Fridays ? I'm not going to be

22:24

that sort of person that goes oh I make the money , you

22:26

know , you go , look after it . I actually

22:28

want a good , decent role in

22:30

my daughter's life , my

22:32

daughter Naomi's life , and

22:34

that's something that I have to balance

22:37

with my hobbies , which was what you were asking

22:39

for , and I'm an avid fisherman

22:41

. I love fishing .

22:44

I fish on the rock , why you brought up the fishing preference

22:46

.

22:47

I always draw a lot of analogies from

22:49

these hobbies right it's fishing

22:51

, and very recently it's been

22:54

mountain biking . So just

22:56

those two activities get me outdoors

22:58

. It feels cool to load

23:00

up your gear in the back of the car and

23:02

go out , and travel for an hour

23:05

and a half to a location , but that

23:07

has to be changed because my priorities

23:09

are now on being a father . I

23:11

have to run my firm well . I have to make sure

23:13

that it's ticking along . Leads are coming

23:15

in , client managers are seeing

23:18

them , and managing them , production managers

23:20

are doing their job , accountants are processing

23:22

through the work . The Fab Five KPI

23:25

is ticking along , and

23:27

that's really what gives me my freedom

23:29

. If I can see the performance

23:31

through the Fab5 , then

23:33

, like Ed and Jamie have talked

23:36

about and shared numerous times , you

23:38

could be on holiday , you could be on

23:40

a yacht somewhere and if

23:42

you can see your Fab5 at least

23:44

it gives you a peace of mind that everything's running

23:47

right . So that's my challenge

23:49

as a wise mentor I have to live what

23:51

I teach , and I'll

23:53

know I'm living what I'm teaching If

23:56

I can see through my Fab Five

23:58

that the team is running well , and that

24:00

will give me time to spend

24:02

and dedicate to my family .

24:05

Exactly , I love that , love

24:07

all the hype , and I

24:10

hope that when this is published Naomi

24:12

is home safe

24:14

. I'm not crying a lot , hope

24:16

you can get some sleep , but it will be awesome

24:19

it will be awesome . Thank

24:21

you , Thomas , for taking the time to

24:23

talk to me today . I

24:25

enjoyed it thoroughly , so I

24:27

will be seeing you around for sure . Hope

24:30

everyone enjoys it .

24:30

Thank you , Claudia , all right

24:32

, see you around .

24:36

Thanks for tuning in . If you like this episode

24:39

, please remember to subscribe and leave us

24:41

a five-star review . Please remember to subscribe and leave us a five-star review For more practical

24:43

Wize tips on how to build a business

24:45

that runs without you . Head

24:50

over to wizementoring . com/ podcast to download a free copy of The

24:52

Accountant's 20-Hour Workweek Playbook

24:54

. We've included a link in

24:56

the show notes below . See you

24:58

on the next episode !