0:04

Welcome to The Work

0:04

Seminar, the podcast for people

0:07

with liberal arts advanced

0:07

degrees considering work outside

0:11

their fields of study. Hi, everyone, thanks for joining

0:24

us. I'm your host, Jesse Butts.

0:27

Welcome to another episode of

0:27

The Work Seminar. Today we're

0:30

doing things a little

0:30

differently. We have a special

0:34

episode with Paul Erdahl, who's

0:34

an executive coach and career

0:38

coach. Rather than an episode

0:38

focused on somebody's story from

0:43

grad school to their current

0:43

work, Paul has been gracious

0:47

enough to join us to share some

0:47

advice and strategies for people

0:51

like us with liberal arts

0:51

advanced degree, who are looking

0:54

for work they'll enjoy in fields

0:54

that might not have direct or

0:58

arguably even tangential

0:58

experience in. So Paul, thank

1:02

you. Thank you for joining us.

1:03

Thank you, Jesse. It's great to be here.

1:05

Glad to have you.

1:05

And just to give our listeners a

1:09

little background, Paul, I know

1:09

that you earned your PhD in

1:12

counseling psychology, and that

1:12

you you did work as a practicing

1:16

psychologist. And after a few

1:16

years of that, you made the leap

1:21

into human resources where you

1:21

worked as an HR executive at a

1:25

couple of larger healthcare

1:25

companies, which is where,

1:28

incidentally, Paul and I met. We

1:28

are former coworkers, and we've

1:32

stayed in touch for going on

1:32

close to 10 years now. And then

1:36

in 2004, you found it, you

1:36

founded, excuse me, your own

1:40

business, where you've been

1:40

helping executives find work, as

1:45

well as improve their

1:45

performance at work.

1:47

Right. Since 2014.

1:47

Just to clarify.

1:50

Oh, I'm sorry. 2014.

1:52

Yeah.

1:53

Yeah, we would have

1:53

been coworkers when I was in

1:55

college if that were 2004. All

1:55

right. Anything else about your

2:00

background before we get into it

2:00

you think our listeners should

2:03

know? Or should we just go ahead and get right started?

2:05

No, I do

2:05

think...thank you, Jesse for

2:07

that overview. As you mentioned,

2:07

I started with dreams of being a

2:13

career psychologist doing

2:13

therapy and working with people,

2:16

in particular people in

2:16

hospital-based settings with

2:19

chronic disease or other types

2:19

of things, but then moved into

2:22

the HR space, and in particular,

2:22

in the areas of organizational

2:28

development and leadership

2:28

development. And so that's what

2:30

I've been doing. And some of the

2:30

things we'll talk about today

2:33

are really based on working with

2:33

people who have gone through

2:36

transition in their careers, and

2:36

how did they make that

2:39

transition? And what types of

2:39

things that they need to reflect

2:42

on and think about? And how did

2:42

they make that happen?

2:46

All right, perfect.

2:46

That sounds great. So as you

2:49

already know, our listeners have

2:49

advanced degrees in a liberal

2:52

arts field. Let's just start off

2:52

with a hypothetical. So say

2:56

somebody with that

2:56

background...Maybe they've been

2:59

teaching or adjunct teaching, or

2:59

they've been working a variety

3:03

of different jobs to make ends

3:03

meet. And now they're ready for

3:08

a change. Maybe they want more

3:08

stable income, maybe they want

3:12

better hours, maybe what they

3:12

thought they would love after

3:17

grad school didn't quite pan

3:17

out. Overall, it's this feeling

3:21

of being stuck. So when you're

3:21

sitting in a situation like

3:25

this, where you do feel stuck,

3:25

what do you recommend? Where do

3:30

we even begin with something

3:30

seemingly so large and

3:35

overwhelming to some?

3:37

Well, the way

3:37

you've just outlined that it is

3:39

large, and it is overwhelming.

3:39

And I think for many people,

3:42

that is the challenge that they

3:42

really face, is thinking about,

3:48

What are the things that I'm

3:48

looking for? Am I looking for a

3:52

better salary? Am I looking for

3:52

a job that is just 40 hours a

3:56

week? Or do I really want to do

3:56

something that's new or

3:59

different? Maybe aligned with a

3:59

sense of purpose or passion that

4:02

I have about something? How do I

4:02

start to get into that kind of

4:07

an environment and be doing

4:07

something I find meaningful and

4:10

something that's rewarding? You

4:10

know, the big question, Jesse,

4:14

and the thing where I really

4:14

start with people, when I work

4:17

with them is to be thinking

4:17

about, let's start with, how do

4:22

you answer the question, What do

4:22

you want to do? And that's

4:25

something that many people

4:25

struggle with. Because the

4:27

answer is, I don't know what I

4:27

want to do. And I don't know

4:31

exactly how to get there from

4:31

here. And so part of the

4:34

challenges, and the opportunity,

4:34

is really to stop and say, Well,

4:38

let's reflect on areas that

4:38

you've experienced throughout

4:41

your life, whether it be through

4:41

your schooling, growing up, in

4:46

your career that you've had thus

4:46

far. What are those things that

4:49

you really value? What are those

4:49

things you appreciate? And

4:52

really starting with that

4:52

personal self exploration, to

4:56

get a sense of, Okay, what's

4:56

going to be meaningful and

4:59

relevant? And what's most

4:59

important to me as I go forward?

5:03

Can we pause there for a second?

5:05

Mmhmm.

5:06

So a lot of our

5:06

guests, they love being in

5:10

history class and spending time

5:10

in the library. So they've

5:14

gotten, you know, that PhD in

5:14

history, and they really thought

5:18

a tenure track position would be

5:18

that fit. And maybe it's because

5:23

of market reasons or other

5:23

factors, that just isn't going

5:27

to be reality. So how, how do

5:27

you use this type of assessment,

5:32

these questions, to, for lack of

5:32

a better term, it probably isn't

5:36

the the one you use in your

5:36

field, but to come up with a

5:39

plan B?

5:39

Right.

5:40

You know, where were the first thing that you really felt passionate about,

5:42

for whatever reason, just isn't

5:48

something you can attain, or you

5:48

feel that the work to attain it

5:51

isn't worth it.

5:52

Right. And I think

5:52

Jesse, and I can certainly

5:56

share, I started my career, my

5:56

passion, my desire, right out of

6:01

undergraduate, I wanted to be a

6:01

therapist. That's what I wanted

6:04

to be. And I wanted to focus on

6:04

working with people, and I

6:06

wanted to be in those kinds of

6:06

environments. And I did that for

6:10

about 5, 6, 7, 8 years, I forget

6:10

exactly how long it was. But

6:14

after a time it was, we all

6:14

mature, we all grow, we all

6:18

start to experience different

6:18

things. We start to understand

6:20

some different things. And I

6:20

think even if it's something,

6:23

and you're kind of describing a

6:23

different scenario where that is

6:27

what I love to do but there's

6:27

nothing there for me to or no

6:30

place for me to take that. And

6:30

so either one of those scenarios

6:34

really calls on us to stop and

6:34

say, Okay, how do I look at

6:38

myself? How do I look a little

6:38

bit at the world of work? How do

6:42

I start to think differently

6:42

about things? And where can I

6:47

take my skills? And how can I

6:47

transfer those into a different

6:51

situation and a different

6:51

setting? And how do we think

6:54

about those...And I know, even

6:54

even when I wanted to move out

6:58

of my career, my identity and my

6:58

self image, and the way I

7:04

conceptualize things, was very

7:04

much as a therapist and a

7:08

psychologist. And I didn't even

7:08

know how to spell HR at that

7:13

point. And it was yet an

7:13

opportunity for me to start to

7:16

think about how do I leverage

7:16

these skills in these abilities

7:20

in a different context? And I

7:20

think whether you're a history

7:23

major, or an English major, or

7:23

you've been a philosopher or

7:27

whatever, how do you start to

7:27

think about, What are those

7:31

skills and capabilities that I

7:31

have? And how can I step into a

7:35

different environment and

7:35

leverage those to add value? And

7:40

to do something that I find

7:40

that's meaningful and relevant

7:43

for me?

7:45

What are some of

7:45

those questions or exercises

7:48

that you encourage people to run

7:48

through to be able to ascertain

7:52

that about themselves?

7:54

Yeah, it's, it's

7:54

something that I really asked

7:56

people to kind of really reflect

7:56

backwards, not just to, here's

8:00

what my degree is, and therefore

8:00

this is what I need to do. But

8:03

think think back even further

8:03

into your junior high, your high

8:08

school years. What were those

8:08

things? And in college. What are

8:12

those things that you really

8:12

enjoyed? What did you really

8:15

value? Where did you find

8:15

yourself getting excited and

8:18

really enjoying a class? Or, or

8:18

an experience that you had? It

8:23

might have been, if people had a

8:23

chance to study abroad or in

8:28

different contexts or different

8:28

cultures, What were those things

8:31

that they really enjoyed? And

8:31

what...really driving that down

8:35

to, What were you doing in that

8:35

situation? And what was it about

8:40

that that you really found

8:40

valuable? Was it something where

8:42

you were helping other people?

8:42

Was it something where you were

8:45

doing research and exploring and

8:45

trying to understand new ideas?

8:49

Was it something that you were

8:49

just engrossed in, in terms of

8:53

your own personal learning on

8:53

things? I know for me, I know,

8:59

as I think back, I can think

8:59

about all those science projects

9:02

I did in junior high, in high

9:02

school that I really loved

9:06

doing. And I shared with many

9:06

people, I originally when I

9:09

started as an undergraduate,

9:09

thought I was going to be a

9:12

biology major, until I took

9:12

college level biology. And it

9:17

was like the worst class I'd

9:17

ever taken in my life. And it

9:21

became sort of these moments

9:21

where you say, That was really

9:24

good to a point. But what were

9:24

those moments where I really

9:28

started to understand and see

9:28

where could I apply things

9:31

differently? And so from the

9:31

biology degree to a psychology

9:35

degree, it was transferring to,

9:35

Well, I wanted something that

9:38

was much more people oriented

9:38

than working in a laboratory,

9:42

dissecting things or studying

9:42

things. I needed that

9:46

affiliation with other people.

9:46

It's actually a value, something

9:49

that I bring to the to the

9:49

table. I value working and being

9:53

engaging with other people. And

9:53

so how do I start to bring that

9:57

then and think about where can I

9:57

leverage those skill sets and

10:00

capabilities to engage in that

10:00

type of environment>

10:04

Yeah, you bring up

10:04

something really interesting,

10:07

and something I didn't consider

10:07

until later than I wish, which

10:13

is the values. I think, in

10:13

school, we're so obsessed,

10:19

focused, you know, pick your

10:19

term, with what we're studying,

10:24

we forget about the the world

10:24

outside of that. When I started

10:29

in marketing, it was kind of a

10:29

fluke. I knew I just wanted to

10:33

do something with writing, which

10:33

I had trained in. And I knew, I

10:39

liked being creative. But it

10:39

wasn't until I really figured

10:41

out that I like being creative,

10:41

I like being strategic, I like

10:45

being curious. And those are

10:45

very valuable to me. And using

10:49

those to help a person or a

10:49

company really do their best

10:55

work for the audience they care

10:55

most about.

10:58

Right.

10:59

That's when it all

10:59

kind of made sense to me. And

11:01

once I had, and this is

11:01

something I've borrowed from a

11:04

book called Unique Ability. But

11:04

once you...in my situation, what

11:09

they advocate is figuring out

11:09

the values that are important to

11:13

you, and what you really like to

11:13

do, and when you can marry

11:17

those, it's not like this magic

11:17

dream job will necessarily pop

11:20

up. But you'll be able to start

11:20

framing things exactly in a way

11:25

where you can look at things a

11:25

little bit more like, or less

11:29

than, Oh, this is one line item

11:29

in the job description. But is

11:34

overall this something that fits

11:34

in with those values, married

11:41

with the things that I do well

11:41

and enjoy doing?

11:44

Yeah, well, you

11:44

have just framed it up

11:46

perfectly, Jesse, and I think

11:46

you've identified what are those

11:51

underlying, regardless of what

11:51

you've studied, regardless of

11:54

what career you're in now, what

11:54

are those things? If you think

11:57

about classic career coaching

11:57

kind of perspective, it's about

12:01

what are your values? What are

12:01

those things that are important

12:05

to you that you need to have in

12:05

your ideal job? What are those

12:09

things you're interested in? And

12:09

in terms of, and we can go into

12:14

this in terms of what type of

12:14

work do you like to do, with

12:17

whether it's retail or research

12:17

or academic kind of

12:21

environments, How do you start

12:21

to think about where do you like

12:25

to be? And then it's also

12:25

bringing not just your values

12:29

and your interests but your

12:29

skills and abilities to bear?

12:32

And what skills and abilities

12:32

have you had? I know people that

12:35

a lot of people in academics are

12:35

people who have developed very

12:40

interesting skills on the side

12:40

where they've been...they have

12:45

artistic skills or capabilities

12:45

that they've leveraged, or they

12:49

spend their summers when they

12:49

have off doing construction work

12:52

or other types of things. They

12:52

start to develop this portfolio

12:56

of skills that isn't necessarily

12:56

tied directly to their career,

12:59

but they have all these skills

12:59

and abilities. And then lastly,

13:02

Is there any particular

13:02

knowledge and expertise that you

13:05

bring to the table? Because

13:05

exactly what you said is, How do

13:10

you bring all those things

13:10

together through a self

13:14

exploration sort of process to

13:14

understand what those elements

13:18

of yourself are? And then how do

13:18

you start to go looking for

13:23

career opportunities that align

13:23

with those?And it's one thing to

13:29

get a job, it's another thing to

13:29

be able to be doing what you

13:32

love and you're passionate

13:32

about. And there's a time and a

13:35

place for both of those. So

13:35

don't get me wrong. I'm

13:38

certainly aware sometimes I just

13:38

need a job right now. But in the

13:42

long term, I'm hoping, certainly

13:42

my value is I hope people can be

13:46

doing work that they value, and

13:46

they feel rewarding, and they

13:50

feel passionate and have a sense

13:50

of purpose about.

13:52

Yeah, and I think

13:52

for some of us, that differs.

13:55

Some may wholeheartedly seek

13:55

what you're describing. Others

14:01

may be more in a spot where, I

14:01

really, really confining it to

14:07

nine to five with decent income

14:07

so that after work, I can get

14:11

back into the studio, or write

14:11

or paint or research or

14:17

whatever. They're not looking to

14:17

supplant that passion from what

14:23

they studied. They're looking

14:23

for something to enable that.

14:27

But still, to your point, I

14:27

mean, it's still important to

14:32

find jobs that will make that

14:32

nine to five something more than

14:35

simply bearable.

14:37

Well, and at the

14:37

risk of being too optimistic, I

14:42

think there may be opportunities

14:42

out there to be doing those

14:46

things that you love after work.

14:46

How do you start to find

14:49

opportunities where you can do

14:49

at least some of that, or part

14:51

of that, or be around other

14:51

people who are doing similar

14:54

types of things that you can do

14:54

in that space? I certainly know

14:59

and understand that. There are

14:59

times when a job is a means to

15:02

an end, when it is something

15:02

that provides you with the

15:04

income, the benefits, whatever

15:04

it might be, and then your

15:07

passion and purpose is outside

15:07

of work. But on the other side

15:11

is, Is there any chance you can

15:11

find that sense of passion and

15:16

purpose in your work? And is

15:16

that even, is that possible? So,

15:22

to some of your listeners who

15:22

may be coming from a, I just

15:27

wanted to be a professor, a

15:27

tenured professor someplace

15:30

teaching or doing something that

15:30

was aligned with sort of a non

15:34

professional career as we think

15:34

about in business types of

15:38

things, but more of an academic

15:38

type of career. I certainly know

15:41

there are a lot of people who

15:41

have come out of academic

15:44

settings that have amazing

15:44

skills, amazing knowledge,

15:48

amazing experience, that if they

15:48

can translate it into a language

15:54

and into a value proposition, as

15:54

we say in business, where you

16:00

can say, Here's how I can bring

16:00

value, and I can bring and have

16:06

an impact for business,

16:06

leveraging my skills. Those

16:11

opportunities, I think they're

16:11

out there. They may be hard to

16:14

find, I'm not gonna, I'm not

16:14

gonna soft sell that too much.

16:17

But it may be hard to find, but

16:17

I think it might be worth

16:22

looking for, depending on what

16:22

your circumstances are. I think

16:25

there are times, and I know,

16:25

I've kind of been through

16:28

different transitions and times

16:28

in my life, when I knew I took a

16:31

job that was a temporary job.

16:31

You know, it was good for me,

16:36

met my basic needs that I needed

16:36

to have met. But it wasn't

16:40

something I wanted to be doing

16:40

long term. But if you can find

16:43

that opportunity, where you're

16:43

doing what you love, and you're

16:45

passionate about, even during

16:45

that 40 hour work week, every

16:49

week, that's a huge opportunity.

16:52

And before we we

16:52

move on to the steps after you

16:56

do this self discovery, just one

16:56

last question about that

16:59

process. Is this something where

16:59

this is...one evening, we just

17:06

open up a spiral notebook and

17:06

just start rattling through

17:10

these questions? Is this, I'm

17:10

sure it differs for a lot of

17:14

different people you work with,

17:14

but how much time should we plan

17:18

on this initial step of really

17:18

coming to terms and

17:25

understanding, outside of pure

17:25

academics, what we really value,

17:32

what we're good at, and what

17:32

will be important to us in our

17:35

work?

17:36

Yeah, great

17:36

question. I think it probably

17:39

takes more time than most people

17:39

think it does. And it is

17:44

something that, that the

17:44

homework assignment that I give

17:47

people, I actually have a list

17:47

of about 15,20 questions that I

17:50

tell people, I just want you to

17:50

go, I want you to put pen to

17:53

paper, I want you to write out

17:53

your answers to these questions.

17:57

And I want you to think about

17:57

things. So I have the list in

18:00

front of me where I ask people,

18:00

you know, first question is...In

18:04

the past year, what have been

18:04

those career conversations going

18:07

on in your head? What's the

18:07

dialogue that you're having with

18:10

yourself? Get people to become

18:10

more self aware of things. I ask

18:14

people to think about their

18:14

career and what are those things

18:18

that that really regenerate

18:18

them. And what are those things

18:21

that just drain their energy?

18:21

What are those things that they

18:25

may have to do, or there may be

18:25

things that they sometimes get

18:28

stuck doing, that just is not in

18:28

the ballpark that they want to

18:32

be in? I also ask people to

18:32

think about accomplishments that

18:35

they've had over the years. I

18:35

asked people to think about,

18:40

What are the five words that you

18:40

would use to describe yourself?

18:43

And when you're at your best,

18:43

what are those five words that

18:46

you would use? And then how

18:46

would people, your friends, your

18:49

family, your colleagues, What

18:49

are the five words you they

18:52

might use to describe you? And

18:52

then I get into some of the

18:55

things we talked about, What are

18:55

your three to five core values

18:58

that you think really guide you

18:58

in your life? Or, describe what

19:04

you're doing in your best job

19:04

ever if you could design it. And

19:07

if you knew you couldn't fail,

19:07

what would you be doing right

19:10

now? And really start to help

19:10

people dig into and reflect on

19:15

and think about these questions.

19:15

And then, in my coaching

19:19

practice, what I will do is

19:19

we'll spend several hours just

19:23

going through these questions to

19:23

understand what what's behind

19:27

what people are thinking about.

19:27

And as an aside, there are some

19:32

tools and other types of things

19:32

that might also help kind of

19:35

spark some thinking. And many

19:35

people have used things like a

19:39

Myers Briggs, or their career

19:39

interest inventories, or

19:42

different things that are out

19:42

there. And there are some, and

19:44

I'd be happy to share some that

19:44

are free online versions of

19:47

things. But it's just a way to

19:47

help. To your point earlier,

19:51

it's a framework. How do I start

19:51

to frame up who am I? What are

19:55

my values? What are my

19:55

interests? What do I care about?

19:58

And what are the environments or

19:58

the spaces or the things I want

20:04

to be doing, and the places I

20:04

want to be in, what do they

20:07

begin to look like for me? And

20:07

if people have got that all in a

20:11

box, and they say, Well, it's

20:11

the job I have. right now. We

20:14

really kind of have to break

20:14

that box open a bit. And we

20:17

really have to start saying,

20:17

Your world is too narrow. You

20:20

have to begin to think outside

20:20

of that box. Because there are

20:24

other places where you can do

20:24

and leverage those same values

20:29

and skills and capabilities and

20:29

interests.

20:32

And we'll

20:32

definitely add in the show notes

20:35

some links or descriptions of

20:35

some of those resources. Paul,

20:38

thank you for mentioning those.

20:38

It sounds like to whether you're

20:43

talking about outside the box, I

20:43

guess the way I think about it

20:46

is an underlying value. You

20:46

know, and again, if someone

20:51

says, Well, I loved studying

20:51

medieval French history,

20:56

something I know very little

20:56

about, and if there are any

20:59

medieval French history

20:59

listeners out there, I apologize

21:02

profusely for using this as an

21:02

example. But to me, that's

21:07

not...that's an interest. It's not a value. But if you dig deeper, it's something like, I

21:09

really love researching topics

21:16

that have fallen to the wayside,

21:16

or that involve people. Once you

21:24

can kind of separate that

21:24

particular academic interest or

21:28

just general interest to what's

21:28

beneath the surface.

21:32

Yeah.

21:32

You know, for me, I

21:32

mean, I've really enjoyed

21:35

writing, and I always associated

21:35

that largely with my identity.

21:38

And I do a little bit less now

21:38

as I've grown older, but, this

21:43

is very cliche, but a lot of

21:43

people might think, What is it

21:47

about writing? And for some

21:47

people, that's, you know,

21:51

they're more in the editor role.

21:51

They love turning chaos into

21:54

something usable. Or if they're

21:54

more on the writing side, and

22:00

they really love creative

22:00

writing, because they love

22:04

creating stories or highlighting

22:04

other people's stories. Those

22:07

are very broad, broadly

22:07

applicable, underlying values.

22:13

The thing I would

22:13

add to that, though, Jesse, as

22:16

I'm listening to you, and I'll

22:16

pick on you as the writer here

22:19

for a second...

22:19

Please.

22:20

That as a writer, I

22:20

mean, writing is a skill.

22:24

Writing is a capability that you

22:24

have, but the question is, How

22:27

do you leverage your writing to

22:27

add value? And so, and I know

22:33

from having worked with you in

22:33

the past, you're somebody who

22:36

can create a story that helps

22:36

communicate effectively to

22:40

employees in an organization, to

22:40

customers who might be

22:44

interested in products. You have

22:44

the ability to take the

22:49

information and eloquently kind

22:49

of create an engaging,

22:53

interesting storyline that does

22:53

engage people in a process that

23:00

might be involving selling

23:00

something, or promoting

23:03

something or whatever it might

23:03

be. That the writing is a means

23:07

to an end. And what you were

23:07

just describing is, at the end

23:11

of the day, you're not a writer.

23:11

People aren't going to hire you

23:14

just to write. They're going to

23:14

hire you because you can

23:18

communicate and you can, you can

23:18

sell and you can inspire and you

23:23

can motivate and you can do all

23:23

those things through effective

23:28

writing as a skill set that

23:28

many, many people don't have.

23:32

Yeah, absolutely. I

23:32

would add to that, you can find

23:37

work as a writer. But you're not

23:37

going to, or you're very likely

23:43

not going to, move up in pay

23:43

scale and responsibility, if you

23:47

cling to that writer identity.

23:49

Right. So I'm

23:49

curious, Jesse, I mean, you did

23:51

move up in an organization. You

23:51

were there. And as you started

23:55

to think about be taking on

23:55

greater responsibility, starting

24:00

from that writing background, as

24:00

people become...you think about

24:04

people in an organization that

24:04

become more and more senior

24:07

leaders, it's because they're

24:07

able to then use their knowledge

24:11

and their expertise to think

24:11

more broadly. To think about,

24:15

What are these messages that we

24:15

need to create? When I think

24:19

about coaching executives, it's

24:19

about you have to motivate

24:23

people, you have to inspire

24:23

people, you have to set

24:25

strategy, you have to set

24:25

direction, you have to have a

24:28

vision or mission, all those

24:28

types of things at every step

24:31

along the way. It requires more

24:31

and more complex and broad

24:38

thinking about what are the

24:38

messages that we want to

24:43

communicate. And so likewise,

24:43

your friend with a, I forget

24:48

what you described it as, the

24:48

French history major who has a

24:52

certain background and

24:52

knowledge. Well, it might be a

24:56

narrow focus in terms of

24:56

knowledge, but what it tells me

25:00

is, This is somebody who knows

25:00

how to think. This is somebody

25:03

who knows how to conceptualize,

25:03

knows how do we learn from

25:08

history? What are the lessons

25:08

from those experiences? What are

25:11

the things that ... How do we

25:11

begin to think about why is that

25:15

relevant today? And how do I

25:15

think about where would there be

25:21

similar types of things? It may

25:21

not be about French history, but

25:24

where are there similar

25:24

opportunities to leverage my

25:29

interest in learning and telling

25:29

stories and communicating to

25:33

others? And how can I do that?

25:36

Just to kind of

25:36

reground ourselves in, not in

25:40

reality, but in the process a

25:40

bit. So let's say, let's assume

25:45

that we've done the homework. We

25:45

have this really good sense of

25:51

our values, the work we do, why

25:51

it why it matters, what type of

25:55

value we can add to a company.

25:55

From there, what do you

26:01

recommend as steps to figure out

26:01

what are jobs that align to

26:06

this? Or maybe maybe a different

26:06

way to approach that is, How do

26:14

I need to view things to see if

26:14

this is a good fit? You know,

26:18

maybe it's not so much about,

26:18

Here are three or four job

26:23

titles, as it is, Here are three

26:23

or four key things I want to see

26:29

from an employer. Can you give

26:29

us a little advice in that

26:33

arena?

26:34

Yeah. And just to

26:34

even back up from that discovery

26:37

process, those conversations,

26:37

starting to think about what are

26:41

the transferable skills that

26:41

people have, to start to think

26:45

out of the box and start to

26:45

bring people into thinking

26:48

about, Well, where might these

26:48

skills be applicable? The first

26:52

thing that I really work on, or

26:52

the second thing after we've

26:56

done the exploration, is to

26:56

focus on how are you going to

26:59

articulate that. And the analogy

26:59

that I always use is, if you're

27:04

at a party, if you're out with

27:04

friends, or you're doing it not

27:08

in the middle of COVID, if you

27:08

have a chance to get out with

27:11

friends and you're talking to

27:11

people, and inevitably in the

27:15

conversation, you know, the

27:15

question comes up, Well, tell me

27:19

about yourself? So you're

27:19

meeting new people, you're

27:22

connecting with new people, and

27:22

the question is, How do you

27:26

answer that? And it's easy for

27:26

me to say, Well, for me, I grew

27:30

up in Minnesota, I come from a

27:30

family of five, I do this,

27:34

here's what I'm interested in.

27:34

But none of that is terribly

27:38

helpful if I'm looking to change

27:38

careers. So what I encourage

27:42

people is to, every time

27:42

somebody asks you a question

27:45

like that, so tell me about

27:45

yourself, that is a career

27:48

opportunity for you to tell your

27:48

personal story. In my

27:52

vernacular, it's, What's your

27:52

personal brand? What is it that

27:56

you want to say about yourself?

27:56

And how does that help people to

28:00

understand who you are, and how

28:00

you add value, and can add value

28:04

in different kinds of work

28:04

environments, because that

28:07

becomes the essence of that.

28:07

That story, which I encourage

28:11

people, by the way, speaking to

28:11

a writer, is 250 words or less.

28:15

So it's very short. Probably a

28:15

half a page if you type it up.

28:19

And it is really focused on kind

28:19

of describing here's who I am.

28:23

And so it may take on, if you've

28:23

already got a career and you're

28:27

really focused on kind of

28:27

continuing in that, I might say,

28:31

Well, I'm an HR executive, and I

28:31

want to do...with a background

28:35

in X, Y, or Z. But if I'm trying

28:35

to make a change from what I've

28:39

been doing to doing something

28:39

else, I need to start talking

28:43

about what are the skill sets

28:43

that I bring forward. I'll share

28:47

a story. I worked with a young

28:47

woman who is a cognitive

28:50

psychologist, and she had spent

28:50

her early career teaching. And

28:54

she was teaching and actually

28:54

had a job in a business school

28:58

where she was teaching

28:58

statistics and some research

29:01

kind of things, methodology. And

29:01

she really wanted out of that.

29:06

And so the question was, Well,

29:06

how do you start to think about

29:10

how do you tell your story? And

29:10

who are you telling that story

29:13

to? After crafting that 250

29:13

words, she had a story that

29:17

said, Here's who I am

29:17

professionally, how she defined

29:20

herself. That's kind of the

29:20

first paragraph. The second

29:24

paragraph of that story is,

29:24

Here's what I'm known for. And

29:28

that might my ability to work

29:28

effectively with others. I

29:31

collaborate with others. I'm

29:31

known for my my critical

29:35

thinking skills or my problem

29:35

solving skills, whatever it

29:38

might be. Those are all skills

29:38

anybody in any field might have.

29:42

But how do you articulate those

29:42

to describe, Here's what I do.

29:46

And then the third paragraph of

29:46

that is really, What am I like

29:50

to add as an employee? You know,

29:50

that I work hard, I'm a great

29:54

team member, or I'm a leader, or

29:54

I'm a manager, or whatever the

29:58

situation might be. How do I get

29:58

along with and work with other

30:02

people? And then the last short

30:02

paragraph is, I'm interested in

30:06

exploring opportunities in, in

30:06

her case, it was in Minneapolis

30:10

here, it was the medical

30:10

technology field. And so that

30:14

she kind of narrowed in and

30:14

said, I want to look at jobs in

30:18

medical technology, which is

30:18

where she ended up and landed.

30:22

I want to make sure that, you know, for the listeners, that I have this

30:24

clarified. So rather than going

30:30

for, Okay, I have my values and

30:30

all this self discovery, let's

30:35

look at job titles. It's in

30:35

between then, it's finding the

30:41

story, or sorry, crafting your

30:41

story. And from there, it might

30:46

not be that finding a certain

30:46

job title is important to you.

30:51

You might not be like, Oh, this

30:51

career option really sounds

30:54

fascinating. It might be this

30:54

industry, this type of

30:58

institution, this ability to be

30:58

able to work from home

31:04

permanently. So are you, and I

31:04

don't mean to put words in your

31:09

mouth, but am I getting that

31:09

right? Should we be a little

31:12

less focused on the job that we

31:12

might find on LinkedIn versus

31:19

these other factors that you've

31:19

just mentioned?

31:22

Yeah. And you're

31:22

asking great questions. And what

31:26

I really...it's all about the

31:26

story. And then it's all about

31:29

talking to people. And I know

31:29

there's tons of jobs out there.

31:33

And I just, you know, as I'm in

31:33

the news this week, a third of

31:39

people under 40 years old are

31:39

looking at new career

31:42

opportunities. Just saw that in

31:42

the Washington Post. And there,

31:45

there's a lot of churn out there

31:45

in terms of careers and talent

31:49

right now. The thing where it

31:49

starts is that story is your

31:54

guide. Doesn't mean I know

31:54

exactly what job I want. But

31:57

it's my way of saying, Here's

31:57

the space I want to play in. And

32:01

here's what I can bring to that

32:01

space to add value. And that's

32:05

what's important to me. Now, the

32:05

steps in this, just to kind of

32:09

put this all in context is...so

32:09

you've done the self discovery,

32:13

now you've been able to

32:13

articulate your story, and

32:16

you've been able to get that in

32:16

250 words or less. The next part

32:20

of this process is really the

32:20

networking that needs to happen.

32:24

That cognitive psychologist I

32:24

mentioned to you was quite an

32:26

introvert, and one of her first

32:26

questions to me was, I'm not

32:29

going to have to network, am I?

32:29

And my response was, Yes, you

32:33

need to learn how to network,

32:33

and learning how to network is

32:36

absolutely critical. Because I

32:36

think there is a statistic, 65%

32:41

of jobs don't come from just

32:41

applying online, but rather

32:44

through your connections,

32:44

through meeting people, getting

32:47

in front of people, finding out

32:47

that if I tell my story to my

32:51

neighbor, my neighbor knows

32:51

somebody else that I should talk

32:53

to, that be exactly the right

32:53

person. And I share with people

32:59

that networking, the goal of

32:59

networking is not necessarily to

33:02

get a job. The goal of

33:02

networking is to expand your

33:06

network. And so that people know

33:06

who you are, they know what

33:09

matters to you, they know what

33:09

you want to do. And because, I

33:14

think Arnold Palmer once said,

33:14

The more I practice, the luckier

33:17

I get. And at some point, you're

33:17

looking for those luck

33:23

opportunities where you will

33:23

bump into the situation where

33:27

you will find the job.

33:28

You brought up

33:28

something that is so divergent

33:31

from a lot of...maybe it's not

33:31

even advice, but just the M.O.

33:35

that we have. You think, Oh, my

33:35

job sucks, I need to look for a

33:40

new one. So that means I need to

33:40

update my resume and I need to

33:44

spend every night looking for

33:44

and applying for jobs. You're

33:48

saying that is the wrong way to

33:48

go about it. You need to do the

33:52

self discovery, you need to come

33:52

up with your story. And then you

33:57

need to network. That the going

33:57

online and finding jobs, that is

34:01

farther down the road, if at

34:01

all, because that networking

34:05

might actually lead to the job.

34:09

Yeah, I'm hoping

34:09

that it will. In most

34:11

situations, that's how people

34:11

will find jobs. And in fact, in

34:16

this day and age, if you're just

34:16

applying online, there may not

34:20

even be a person at the other

34:20

end of the system looking at

34:23

your resume. Resumes these days

34:23

go into an applicant tracking

34:28

system. And what happens is,

34:28

you're up against sort of the

34:32

logic of the system that's

34:32

looking at if-then equations on

34:35

things. And yes, you've got to

34:35

have all your right keywords in

34:38

there and you've got to have

34:38

those kinds of things. But if,

34:41

especially if, you're looking to

34:41

make a transition from one sort

34:46

of area of your career into

34:46

something new, chances are

34:53

you're not going to be the

34:53

square peg they're looking to

34:55

put in a square hole. They're

34:55

going to be looking for somebody

34:59

who has the background who's

34:59

done this before. Who has

35:01

experience doing this. And if we

35:01

can find somebody like that,

35:04

we're gonna put them in. And

35:04

your resume may not even get

35:08

seen by anybody if nobody calls

35:08

attention to it. So my

35:15

encouragement to people is you

35:15

want, if there's a job or you

35:20

hear about something, I

35:20

encourage you to try to network

35:23

your way in to talk to somebody

35:23

about it before you even apply.

35:26

So that you can you can say,

35:26

have somebody say, Okay, I know

35:30

who you are. Or even if it's

35:30

something, Jesse, if you applied

35:33

for a job at a company, and I

35:33

happen to know, maybe I know one

35:37

person there, I can at least

35:37

drop a note to that person and

35:40

say, Hi, I just want to let you

35:40

know that Jesse is a good...I've

35:45

known Jesse for years, I've seen

35:45

him, I've worked with him, he is

35:49

somebody that deserves your

35:49

attention in the selection

35:52

process. All I can do, and if

35:52

you're not networking with the

35:57

person who's actually hiring for

35:57

the job, is to ask somebody to

36:01

bring attention to your

36:01

application or your interest in

36:07

the role.

36:09

And I think there's

36:09

something, there's a lot of

36:12

important things here. One thing

36:12

is we see on the news so much

36:16

about, or maybe just the the

36:16

news that I'm reading, it's

36:20

probably not on the front page.

36:20

But over the last year in

36:25

particular, companies are making

36:25

big strides, some making real

36:33

progress, some doing lip

36:33

service, to DEI, which is

36:38

Diversity, Equity, and

36:38

Inclusion. So things like, you

36:43

know, this should theoretically

36:43

curb employers for looking for

36:48

people that fit their cognitive

36:48

biases. That, This job

36:53

requires...because people who

36:53

have done well in this job have

36:57

this degree, or they have this

36:57

many years of experience, or all

37:01

of these things. In theory, we

37:01

should see that eroding. But

37:05

obviously, there's reality. And

37:05

rather than waiting out for

37:11

those applicant tracking systems

37:11

to be perfected, and for the

37:15

human resources departments, and

37:15

even more so the hiring

37:17

managers, to understand the

37:17

flaws in some of these

37:22

approaches, we need to take that

37:22

step now, or else we'll be

37:26

waiting for a long time.

37:27

Right. And that's

37:27

it. At the end of the day, this

37:31

is all about interpersonal

37:31

dynamics. It's all about

37:35

connecting with people, it's all

37:35

about making sure that people

37:42

know about you and understand

37:42

your story. So if you are coming

37:46

from a non-traditional

37:46

background, you have to be able

37:49

to let somebody know why you're

37:49

the right person for that job.

37:53

Because you have the interest,

37:53

because you have the skills,

37:56

because you can learn new things

37:56

quickly and readily. Those are

38:01

all areas that are critically

38:01

important for somebody who's on

38:04

the other end, a hiring manager.

38:04

First of all, the vast majority

38:07

of hiring managers don't do a

38:07

lot of hiring. It's not

38:11

something that they're doing

38:11

every day unless they're in a

38:13

high turnover kind of business

38:13

of some sort. But this is

38:16

something they do occasionally.

38:16

So you've got an HR person who's

38:19

bringing people in, and all of a

38:19

sudden, they have three or four

38:21

people they're interviewing.

38:21

It's a process, and you have to

38:25

stand out. And you have to be

38:25

able to talk about why you're

38:29

the right person for the job.

38:29

Even though you may not have the

38:33

ideal background for the

38:33

position. I think I shared with

38:36

you Jesse, in an earlier

38:36

conversation, but when I got

38:40

my...when I left the hospital

38:40

setting that I was working

38:43

in...so I started working in a

38:43

hospital here in Minneapolis.

38:45

And I did do some work within

38:45

that group in their HR group and

38:49

function. But my next job was

38:49

working for what is now US Bank.

38:54

So I went from a hospital,

38:54

traditional healthcare

38:57

environment into banking, which

38:57

I knew nothing about. And I was

39:02

fortunate that the woman who

39:02

hired me, the one who is my

39:06

boss, somebody I still keep in

39:06

touch with today, she saw

39:10

something in me. And a

39:10

conversation that we had

39:13

triggered her to be thinking

39:13

about, You can bring different

39:17

perspectives to the table. You

39:17

can bring new ideas, you can

39:21

think differently than the other

39:21

people who all went to the same

39:24

school and got the same degree

39:24

and got the same training or

39:27

certification. Now I've got

39:27

somebody who's coming in to

39:31

bring some different ways of

39:31

looking at things. She valued

39:36

that and she brought me in, and

39:36

that really took my career for

39:41

the next 20 years on a

39:41

completely different direction.

39:45

And it was because of that

39:45

connection with her that that

39:49

was able to happen. And so dumb

39:49

luck. I don't know what it was,

39:56

how we got connected on things,

39:56

but that was the opportunity

40:01

that really changed the course

40:01

of my career. And so you got to

40:05

bump into those somehow.

40:07

It's, and to put

40:07

this in a business parlance, how

40:11

do you scale dumb luck? It's an

40:11

interesting question. But

40:15

seriously, if we could go back

40:15

to networking...

40:19

Yeah.

40:20

...mechanics for a

40:20

bit. You know, we all have this

40:24

perception of, and I don't want

40:24

to spend too much time on that,

40:27

because there's so much, there's

40:27

so many resources out there with

40:30

with a quick Google search...But

40:30

we have this idea of networking

40:34

being this sleaz mixer at the

40:34

airport Ramada Inn, you know,

40:41

with a bunch of insurance

40:41

salespeople or...no, no

40:46

disrespect to insurance

40:46

salespeople, you provide a great

40:48

service. But how do we actually

40:48

start networking? What do we do?

40:53

I mean, does it have to be this

40:53

seemingly awful thing that we

40:57

have built up in our heads?

41:00

Well, and I've

41:00

certainly I've had those

41:02

meetings at the Ramada Inn. And

41:02

I know what those can be like. I

41:06

think that the way, the way I

41:06

kind of tell people is...and

41:12

again, I see networking as part

41:12

of an exploratory process. If

41:17

you show up and you say, Hi, I'm

41:17

looking for a job doing X, Y, or

41:20

Z, most people will give you a

41:20

dumb stare and say, Well, I

41:24

don't have a job doing that. So

41:24

I can't help you. And so that's

41:28

the wrong approach. The approach

41:28

that I really encourage people

41:33

to think about is, this is a

41:33

learning experience. I'm trying

41:37

to network with people who are

41:37

in the areas that I might be

41:41

interested. Maybe they're in

41:41

areas I'm not interested in, it

41:44

just kind of confirms that. But

41:44

I need to approach those as,

41:47

first of all, it's my meeting. I

41:47

called it. If I got somebody, I

41:52

found them on LinkedIn, or

41:52

somebody introduced me, it's my

41:54

meeting. I need to show up, I

41:54

need to have an agenda, I need

41:58

to know, I want to share with

41:58

you really briefly, here's who I

42:02

am, here's where I'm at, I'm at

42:02

a career transition, I'm

42:05

exploring opportunities. And

42:05

Jesse, I'm interested in careers

42:10

that might allow me to leverage

42:10

my writing skills and doing

42:12

different types of things. I

42:12

know this is something that

42:15

you've done, I'd love to, if

42:15

you're okay, I have a few

42:18

questions I want to ask you

42:18

about that. And then I have a

42:21

few questions. How did

42:21

you...What was your first job?

42:23

How did you get into this? How

42:23

did you make that transition?

42:25

Different kinds of things. So it

42:25

becomes an opportunity for me to

42:28

learn from you. And then it's

42:28

mostly me asking a few questions

42:33

of people. And I also keep it

42:33

short. There's a wonderful book,

42:36

by the way, and it is the bible

42:36

for networking in my mind, and

42:41

it's written by a couple people

42:41

who have worked in the search

42:45

firm kind of business, Marcia

42:45

Ballanger and Nathan Perez. And

42:50

the title of the book is The

42:50

20-Minute Networking Meeting.

42:54

And this book is a how-to

42:54

meeting and how-to guide for

42:58

having networking meetings. And

42:58

if you go out onto Amazon, or

43:02

your local bookstore, wherever

43:02

it is, they actually have

43:04

different editions. They have

43:04

one for executives who are in

43:07

transition, they have one for

43:07

graduates, new graduates who are

43:10

in transition, I think they even

43:10

have one for veterans who are in

43:14

transition, trying to leverage

43:14

their skills. And it is a how-to

43:17

step-by-step, down to spend the

43:17

first two or three minutes doing

43:21

this in follow through. And with

43:21

the target being, this is a 20

43:26

to 30 minute meeting, this is

43:26

not an hour long meeting. You've

43:28

got to respect other people's

43:28

time. What is it you want to get

43:31

out of it? What is your ask? And

43:31

essentially, most of the time,

43:35

the ask at the end of one of

43:35

these meetings are twofold. One

43:38

is, Who else should I be talking

43:38

to? So Jesse, who else do you

43:43

know, or might recommend that

43:43

you think I might talk to you to

43:46

learn more and go deeper into

43:46

this? Or I've looked you up on

43:49

LinkedIn, I see you know

43:49

somebody over at another company

43:52

that I'm interested in. Would

43:52

you be willing to make an

43:55

introduction for me? It's

43:55

leveraging the network to expand

43:58

your network. The other part of

43:58

it is, one of the things that

44:02

they highly recommend in the

44:02

book is there's, how do you kind

44:05

of...if people are willing to

44:05

kind of pay it forward, how do

44:08

you pay back? So Jesse, what can

44:08

I do for you? Is there anything

44:11

that I can do to help you? Is

44:11

there something that we've

44:13

talked about that you might be

44:13

interested in, maybe I

44:16

referenced an article I can

44:16

share with you, maybe it's

44:18

somebody I know that you'd like

44:18

to meet? I'd be happy to do

44:21

anything to kind of pay it back

44:21

to you in terms of how can I

44:24

help be a resource for you? All

44:24

of that is outlined in that

44:28

book. I highly encourage people

44:28

to buy it, probably 20 bucks or

44:31

so online. I don't even know.

44:31

But it's a great resource. And

44:36

it is a how-to book for

44:36

networking.

44:40

Yeah. And I'll be

44:40

sure to include some information

44:42

on that in the show notes. How

44:42

do you find those people? I

44:48

mean, are you going on LinkedIn

44:48

and searching for those

44:52

companies and trying to find

44:52

people who look like they have

44:54

jobs you might like? Are you

44:54

sending an email out to the

44:59

world, sharing your story and

44:59

that you're looking for people

45:02

to talk to who might be in these

45:02

fields? What is that? I'm not

45:07

sure if it's quite the first

45:07

step. But what does that early

45:10

step look like in terms of

45:10

mechanics?

45:13

It's sort of like

45:13

building a pyramid. Right at the

45:16

bottom, you're kind of reaching

45:16

out to almost anybody. And if

45:21

you've got friends, you've got

45:21

family, people through social

45:26

circles, one sort or another.

45:26

Maybe there's people, you said,

45:30

Wow, I haven't followed up with

45:30

them in a long time. Maybe

45:32

that's a chance to start. And

45:32

those may be a little bit more

45:36

than networking, I realize. But

45:36

if you can leverage part of

45:39

those meetings, for networking

45:39

purposes, to say, I'm trying to

45:42

learn more about this. And, Who

45:42

do you know in this environment?

45:45

Do you know anybody who does

45:45

these kinds of things? And is

45:48

there anybody you might suggest?

45:48

And I certainly know having

45:51

years ago, having gone through

45:51

this process myself, sometimes

45:54

you meet people that are really

45:54

of no help whatsoever. But then,

45:57

you know, it's the time...I

45:57

remember I was busy, had a whole

46:04

bunch of meetings, and I was

46:04

pulling up at a Starbucks here

46:07

in Minneapolis. I'm literally

46:07

sitting in the car, trying to

46:10

remember who it was I was even

46:10

going to go in and meet with,

46:12

right? Couldn't remember this

46:12

woman's name. So I'm looking her

46:15

up on my phone, finally find it,

46:15

I walk in, I find her...She was

46:18

one of the most help, to my

46:18

surprise, one of the most

46:22

helpful people I'd ever met. And

46:22

I didn't know her. But I think

46:25

the discovery is most people are

46:25

happy to try to help if they

46:29

can, and happy to help provide

46:29

information. People like to talk

46:35

about their own careers, if

46:35

their careers are relevant. And

46:37

as long as you can engage in the

46:37

dialogue and the discussion to

46:40

kind of dig deeper and ask

46:40

questions, it's an opportunity

46:44

for you to continue to move

46:44

forward in terms of expanding

46:48

things, and the people you know.

46:51

I've had similar

46:51

experience as well, where I

46:54

think so many of us assume that

46:54

it's such a burden that we're

46:58

asking people, or annoyance. We

46:58

all have been there, we've all

47:02

needed to find a job, we've all

47:02

needed to get out of a job. We

47:05

get that networking is how you

47:05

do that. So I completely agree.

47:10

When someone asks for a little

47:10

bit of my time because they're

47:13

interested in something I do, or

47:13

I know somebody, those are some

47:17

of the things that I'll bend

47:17

over backwards to find a time to

47:21

meet. I personally just enjoy

47:21

it. But I know how that one

47:26

introduction can lead to a whole

47:26

new career, because it's

47:28

happened to me. And I think,

47:28

those of us who've been in that

47:34

situation, very earnestly want

47:34

to pay that forward.

47:38

Yeah, absolutely. I

47:38

couldn't agree more Jesse. And

47:42

just a follow up, I mentioned

47:42

it's kind of like building a

47:45

pyramid. But typically, what

47:45

happens is you start the

47:47

networking process is, you'll

47:47

get more and more focused as you

47:51

learn more and you start talking

47:51

to people. And you start to zoom

47:54

in, which is really the next

47:54

part of this whole process, is

47:58

figuring out Well, what, and

47:58

again, what's my marketing

48:01

strategy here? Right? And what

48:01

are the areas that I want to

48:06

really kind of zoom in on. And

48:06

just to kind of give you

48:11

some...if you think about this,

48:11

if you're creating a matrix on a

48:14

piece of paper, Do I want to

48:14

work in a big business? Do I

48:17

want to work in a small business? Do I want to work in a nonprofit? Do I want to work in

48:19

an academic environment of some

48:22

sort? Do I want to work on my

48:22

own? Do I want to work for a

48:26

consulting firm? What does that

48:26

all look like? And then it

48:29

starts to move towards sort of,

48:29

What product or service do I

48:32

want to be associated with? I've

48:32

shared with many people, I mean,

48:37

this is also about sort of

48:37

coming out of that self

48:40

discovery process. There's a

48:40

different type of person who

48:44

wants to go work at the Ritz

48:44

Carlton than wants to go and

48:47

work at IKEA. And it's a

48:47

different kind of customer

48:51

service. It's a different kind

48:51

of interaction. I worked at a

48:54

company here in Minneapolis,

48:54

Medtronic, which is medical

48:56

technology company. I walked

48:56

into Medtronic, and it was like

48:59

coming home to a place I'd never

48:59

been before. It was really that

49:03

kind of experience where I loved

49:03

it. I loved the people I was

49:06

with, I loved the work that they

49:06

were doing, I loved the products

49:09

they were selling. All those

49:09

kinds of things, in contrast to

49:12

having worked at another

49:12

organization prior to Medtronic,

49:15

where it was an agricultural

49:15

firm. And I couldn't stand it.

49:22

All due respect to those in

49:22

agricultural fields. I just got

49:26

bored silly sitting in meetings

49:26

talking about, you know, soy

49:29

beans and molasses and other

49:29

agricultural products. And I

49:33

should have learned. I did find

49:33

my ninth grade career interest

49:37

inventory, and the very lowest

49:37

score on my entire interest

49:40

inventory was agriculture. And

49:40

that was something, was an Aha

49:45

Moment for me that it's

49:45

important to be in the right

49:48

place, doing the right things. I

49:48

may have been doing the right HR

49:52

kind of skills and things, but

49:52

it was not in an environment

49:55

that was aligned with me. So I

49:55

think it's that marketing

49:58

strategy becomes a, Okay, let me

49:58

narrow down the field I want to

50:02

work in. I want to work in

50:02

retail. Is that target? Is it

50:06

Best Buy? Is it Nordstroms? Is

50:06

it, you know, what type of an

50:09

organization is that? Or I want

50:09

to work in technology. Is it

50:12

Apple? Is it Google? Is it

50:12

Verizon telephones? What is it?

50:16

And so how do I start to narrow

50:16

that down, because that's the

50:19

process. Now one of the things,

50:19

if you haven't already gathered,

50:23

this is not end to end...this is

50:23

not a quick process. And with

50:27

most of the executives and

50:27

leaders and people that I've

50:31

worked with, who are giving this

50:31

sort of their full attention,

50:34

this can be easily six months to

50:34

a 12 month kind of process, to

50:41

kind of go through the self

50:41

discovery, to begin to think

50:43

about how I want to frame

50:43

myself, to begin to think about

50:46

those networking contacts I want

50:46

to leverage, to think about how

50:50

do I narrow my marketing

50:50

channels in terms of what kind

50:54

of organizations do I want to

50:54

focus on, and then you get to

50:57

the end where you're actually

50:57

going in and trying to break in

51:01

and interview and connect with people.

51:03

Yeah, and that's

51:03

something...we've gone over a

51:06

ton of useful, great information

51:06

here. We've really gotten a

51:10

great sense of self discovery,

51:10

we've gotten incredible insights

51:14

into how to craft our story, and

51:14

how to think about what are

51:19

those company sizes, those

51:19

sectors, industry sectors, and

51:24

we now have networks. So let's

51:24

say that we've gone through

51:27

that, and we had a great

51:27

networking experience, and it

51:31

led to an interview. So we're in

51:31

the interview, How do you

51:34

recommend that people in this

51:34

situation talk about, or maybe

51:38

not talk about, that academic

51:38

experience, especially if they

51:43

don't have other more, quote

51:43

unquote, relevant experience?

51:48

How do you suggest listeners

51:48

handle those interviews? If the

51:53

interviewer, the hiring manager,

51:53

does start grilling you about,

51:59

How does this PhD relate? Or,

51:59

what have you done since

52:02

workwise? Since undergrad?

52:02

Things like that?

52:06

Yeah, I think the

52:06

key answer is you need to be

52:08

honest with people. Right? So

52:08

it's not like I can make up a

52:11

career I haven't had. But I

52:11

think that the challenge is you

52:17

just described as, Well, why is

52:17

your background relevant to me?

52:20

Exactly.

52:21

If you take the time and you're working on your story, Why is it relevant to

52:23

you? What what were the skills

52:28

and the abilities and things

52:28

that you you bring to the table

52:32

that will make you a valuable

52:32

asset to whatever the job is

52:37

that you're applying for? Now,

52:37

maybe these are a few kind of

52:40

tactical things just to think

52:40

about. It's important to

52:43

realize, if, depending on what

52:43

your job title was, you're

52:46

probably, if you're making a

52:46

career switch from academia, or

52:52

into a new kind of career,

52:52

you're probably going to start

52:55

as an individual contributor.

52:55

Unless you've had management

52:57

experience, which would be a

52:57

huge asset, to kind of think

53:01

about, Well, I've managed

53:01

people, I know how to get work

53:03

done through others, I know how

53:03

to make those things happen. If

53:07

you're coming in, what you

53:07

really need to sell is a concept

53:12

that's out there, and you can

53:12

Google this, around learning

53:14

agility. And I think even today,

53:14

when I work on succession

53:19

planning in organizations, one

53:19

of the things we look at is, we

53:23

certainly look at past

53:23

performance, what kinds of

53:26

things that people done, how

53:26

have they done, what has there

53:28

been their level of performance

53:28

and success? But the other

53:31

element we look at as we think

53:31

about people is, What potential

53:35

do they have to step up to the

53:35

next level role in an

53:40

organization? And similarly, if

53:40

you're coming in with a unique

53:44

background into a role, you

53:44

really have to sell your

53:48

potential, because you're really

53:48

most likely stepping in a job

53:52

you've never done before. The

53:52

question is, are you agile

53:56

enough? Are you capable enough?

53:56

Are you dedicated enough to

53:59

learn new ways of thinking, new

53:59

ways of doing things? And have

54:03

you demonstrated that in the

54:03

past, likely you have, if you've

54:07

gone from one situation to

54:07

another someplace, you've taken

54:10

on a role or responsibility,

54:10

you've done volunteer work,

54:13

doing something, you've led a

54:13

committee, you've been involved

54:17

as a volunteer someplace,

54:17

whatever it might be. How have

54:20

you demonstrated your ability to

54:20

continually learn and step into

54:25

situations that are new and

54:25

different? And how can

54:29

you...that's your opportunity,

54:29

rather, for you to really

54:32

convince somebody is, My

54:32

background and experience is

54:36

relevant because it's based on

54:36

continual learning and continual

54:39

growth. And that's what I'm

54:39

going to do here. I can come in,

54:43

I may not know the specifics of

54:43

this job, but I'm pretty sure

54:47

that in the next three to six

54:47

months, I can probably learn 99%

54:50

of what I need to know to do

54:50

this job. And with that, I bring

54:54

unique background, unique

54:54

perspectives, different ways of

54:57

thinking than people out of more

54:57

traditional paths might have.

55:02

So I just want to

55:02

really emphasize that point.

55:05

That what you say learn is

55:05

something you will absolutely

55:08

have to learn. And you might not

55:08

get a lot of time to do it on

55:12

the job. That might be something

55:12

that needs to be done outside of

55:16

working hours, initially, at

55:16

least. But I think that's just a

55:22

reality that we need to accept

55:22

when we're really shooting for

55:26

something that we can't walk in

55:26

day one and nail.

55:31

Absolutely. And I

55:31

think, Jesse, one of the things

55:34

we haven't touched on is, there

55:34

are some jobs that require

55:38

certain levels of education or

55:38

training. If you're going to try

55:42

to apply for a job as a finance

55:42

person, you better have some

55:46

background in finance, you

55:46

better know and understand

55:48

accounting principles, and you

55:48

better know and understand kind

55:51

of the basics and fundamentals

55:51

around how all of that is done.

55:55

Now, you can probably learn that

55:55

through online courses and

55:59

different types of things. But

55:59

you're going to have to be able

56:01

to talk to that. In another

56:01

situation, if you're applying

56:04

for an HR job, what are kind of

56:04

the...do your research, do your

56:10

homework, find out what are the

56:10

core elements of HR jobs.

56:14

Hopefully by this time, you've

56:14

networked with a lot of HR

56:17

people, and you've talked to

56:17

them to understand what it is

56:20

that they do. And are they

56:20

involved in compensation and

56:24

benefits? Are they involved in

56:24

in employee relations work? Are

56:27

they involved in talent

56:27

development work? What types of

56:30

things are out there? So you can

56:30

at least speak to kind of that

56:34

area, and then come on in and

56:34

learn how you're going to do

56:38

that. Likewise, I'll keep going

56:38

with the HR one. I mean, there's

56:42

an association out there called

56:42

SHRM, Society for HR Management,

56:48

I think, which is one that

56:48

anybody, I think, could join.

56:51

And they offer training and

56:51

various certifications and

56:54

things in HR. I don't think it

56:54

requires any particular

56:57

background prior to being

56:57

involved in that. But that, that

57:01

might be a route, if you're

57:01

really committed to doing

57:04

something like that. I'm

57:04

guessing there are similar

57:06

things, if you wanted to go into

57:06

it, if you wanted to go into

57:09

finance, if you wanted to go

57:09

into other professional careers

57:12

along those lines. So that's

57:12

important. I mean, in some ways,

57:16

in other jobs, of course, if you

57:16

want to be a doctor, you want to

57:19

be a lawyer, you want to be some

57:19

other types of jobs, a nurse or

57:22

something, you obviously have to

57:22

go back and get the appropriate

57:25

training.

57:26

Yeah, I want to

57:26

bring up too that, if you're a

57:30

listener who feels like you're

57:30

in the camp of, I really just

57:34

want something better for nine

57:34

to five so that I can do my

57:38

passion outside of work and on

57:38

weekends, and the thought of

57:42

having to learn these skills and

57:42

do all this to lead up to a job,

57:45

it sounds too much. Obviously,

57:45

Paul and I don't have the answer

57:50

for you, that's an individual

57:50

assessment. One way I like to

57:55

think about this is, well, maybe

57:55

the six months to a year that

57:59

you spend learning the skill and

57:59

finding the job, will that

58:04

enable you to spend more time on

58:04

your passion? Versus if you

58:09

continued where you are right

58:09

now, it's five years later,

58:13

which path has allowed you to do

58:13

more , consistently isn't quite

58:19

the right word, but five years

58:19

from now, which approach to work

58:24

has allowed you to focus more on

58:24

your passion in the long run?

58:30

Yeah, I couldn't

58:30

agree more. I think, just to

58:35

share, I've got a very close

58:35

friend who is a musician. He and

58:40

his wife are both musicians. And

58:40

as you might imagine, that has

58:44

been a tough road, especially

58:44

the last year or two. And he

58:49

does teaching, and I think they

58:49

both teach. But that is

58:53

not...It's not as lucrative as

58:53

they want it to be. And their

58:59

performance schedule has

58:59

certainly been cut back. So in

59:02

terms of being involved in

59:02

orchestras and different things,

59:05

it just hasn't been happening as

59:05

much. So I know he's been

59:08

working at a Starbucks. And he's

59:08

been, I don't know what his

59:12

particular role is there. But I

59:12

know he does that. I believe he

59:15

enjoys it. I think he's good at

59:15

it. But that is not sort of his

59:19

heart and soul is being a

59:19

barista or a manager at a

59:22

Starbucks. So that is where you,

59:22

you know, you create this sort

59:27

of portfolio career where you

59:27

have these different parts in

59:30

terms of, I'm able to do some

59:30

things that I'm doing while I'm

59:33

doing other things. I have

59:33

another writer friend, he has

59:37

done most of his work helping

59:37

people write their

59:39

dissertations, and just learning

59:39

the style around dissertations

59:44

and how do you help people that

59:44

need those writing skills from

59:48

him. I've also connected, by the

59:48

way, through my coaching work

59:52

that I'm doing with a C suite

59:52

executive who's a bad writer,

59:56

and have connected with another

59:56

writer to potentially be a

1:00:01

coach. A writing coach for a

1:00:01

senior executive. And so you

1:00:05

start to realize where do these

1:00:05

things kind of fit in there.

1:00:08

There are niches for some of

1:00:08

these. If you're a history

1:00:10

major, I'm not sure that French

1:00:10

history is where that's going to

1:00:13

fit, but there might be a place,

1:00:13

some place, or there might be a

1:00:16

connection through international

1:00:16

organizations where they need

1:00:19

somebody need somebody who's

1:00:19

bilingual, somebody who speaks

1:00:22

French, somebody who has a

1:00:22

background and knowledge about

1:00:25

French culture, there are

1:00:25

certainly other kinds of areas.

1:00:29

So I think that's where you have

1:00:29

to think holistically. And I'll

1:00:34

be honest with you, I think,

1:00:34

especially if there are people

1:00:37

who are coming out of careers in

1:00:37

academia, they tend to be very,

1:00:42

very narrow, kind of focused, in

1:00:42

terms of how they think about

1:00:47

things. Now, I probably angering

1:00:47

a few people here. But if your

1:00:51

focus has been, I'm a professor

1:00:51

of psychology, or math, or

1:00:55

history, or whatever it might

1:00:55

be, it's about, How do I start

1:00:59

to think about the

1:00:59

administrative aspects of the

1:01:02

college or university? How do I

1:01:02

start to think about the broader

1:01:05

kind of perspectives of things?

1:01:05

People need to be connecting

1:01:08

dots at a much wider range than

1:01:08

saying, I'm just gonna stay in

1:01:15

my lane. You've got to get out

1:01:15

of your lane and start to think

1:01:18

about, What do I bring to other

1:01:18

areas? What can I bring as part

1:01:23

of that value proposition where

1:01:23

I can create value and make a

1:01:26

difference in different types of

1:01:26

spaces? And I think most people

1:01:31

will be surprised to discover

1:01:31

there's opportunities out there.

1:01:34

Yeah, the port

1:01:34

portfolio career is an

1:01:36

interesting concept. I have

1:01:36

never heard a term for that. And

1:01:39

one thing I just want to

1:01:39

clarify, the question I posed

1:01:43

was a bit leading. I didn't mean

1:01:43

it to be. I mean, for example,

1:01:46

if you have a passion that has a

1:01:46

limited shelf life, and I'm

1:01:51

thinking, for example, if you're

1:01:51

a ballet dancer, and it's the

1:01:55

question of, Do I spend a year

1:01:55

now focusing on this? It might

1:01:59

that answer could very well be

1:01:59

absolutely not. I need to keep

1:02:02

my prime dancing years as free

1:02:02

for dancing as possible. And

1:02:06

utmost respect for that. So I

1:02:06

just wanted to clarify that I

1:02:09

wasn't trying to stop anybody in

1:02:09

those type of situations by any

1:02:13

means.

1:02:14

Right. I couldn't

1:02:14

agree more. And I think that

1:02:18

that's key. You're, of course,

1:02:18

bringing up some of the most

1:02:20

challenging, unique jobs out

1:02:20

there, Jesse. So...

1:02:23

We don't call it The Work Seminar for nothing here.

1:02:25

Yeah. So you know,

1:02:25

I just want to...and kind of my

1:02:30

overall perspective is it does

1:02:30

take some discovery, it does

1:02:33

kind of take peeling back the

1:02:33

onion a little bit to find out,

1:02:37

Where is that other space that I

1:02:37

can play in? And if you can play

1:02:42

in the one that you're in, and

1:02:42

you really love it, stay there.

1:02:45

Enjoy it as long as you possibly

1:02:45

can. But when that time comes,

1:02:49

and when you need to start

1:02:49

thinking about different kinds

1:02:51

of things, be adaptable. Be

1:02:51

thinking about, How can I can I

1:02:55

make that kind of a shift? When

1:02:55

I went out on my own, now seven

1:02:59

years ago, I had one vision of

1:02:59

what I was...kind of the

1:03:03

services and what was the

1:03:03

consulting space I wanted to

1:03:06

play in. And when I look at what

1:03:06

I'm doing today, it's nothing

1:03:09

related to what I thought I was

1:03:09

going to be doing even seven

1:03:12

years ago. So it is that

1:03:12

continual learning process. It's

1:03:16

that openness to new

1:03:16

experiences, and new ideas, and

1:03:20

openness to thinking out of the

1:03:20

box and thinking more broadly,

1:03:23

in terms of How, what can I do

1:03:23

with this knowledge, these

1:03:28

skills, these interests, these

1:03:28

values that I have?

1:03:31

Yeah, and I think

1:03:31

that's an important point in the

1:03:33

sense that what I land as a job

1:03:33

after this, let's call it six

1:03:40

months of work, doesn't have to

1:03:40

be and might not, and very

1:03:44

likely will not be, the lifelong

1:03:44

work. What I thought was really

1:03:50

important maybe five years after

1:03:50

undergrad for work, I found

1:03:55

immensely boring 10 years after

1:03:55

undergrad.

1:03:59

Exactly.

1:04:00

And I've also had

1:04:00

the experience too where I've

1:04:03

thought taking on more

1:04:03

responsibility would be

1:04:06

fulfilling. And some of it

1:04:06

absolutely was, but some of that

1:04:09

I absolutely had to roll back.

1:04:09

It just wasn't right for me.

1:04:13

This has been great, Paul. We've

1:04:13

gone over so much information.

1:04:18

For people, we'll have things in

1:04:18

the show notes. If someone is

1:04:21

interested in chatting with you

1:04:21

or possibly working with you,

1:04:24

what is the best way for them to contact you?

1:04:26

Well, I would point

1:04:26

people toward my website, my

1:04:29

organization, my firm that I run

1:04:29

is called Global Talent

1:04:33

Strategies. And it's out at

1:04:33

www.GlobalTalentStrategies.com.

1:04:38

And that has all my contact

1:04:38

information out there as well as

1:04:41

additional information about

1:04:41

some of the areas that I focus

1:04:44

on.

1:04:45

Great. Well, thank you for joining us, Paul. We appreciate it.

1:04:48

Thank you, Jesse.

1:04:48

This has been great, and I wish

1:04:50

everybody who's listening, I

1:04:50

hope you can find that path

1:04:55

forward that works for you.

1:04:59

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Work Seminar. If you like what

1:05:00

you've heard, please take a

1:05:03

minute to rate the show on your

1:05:03

favorite podcast app. Know

1:05:06

someone who'd be a great Work

1:05:06

Seminar guest? Or have a

1:05:09

suggestion or two for the show?

1:05:09

You can reach me at

1:05:12

[email protected], or

1:05:12

@TheWorkSeminar on social. And

1:05:16

special thanks, as always, to

1:05:16

Jon Camp for the music and

1:05:20

Isabel Patino for the cover art

1:05:20

and design. Until next time,

1:05:24

never cease from exploration.