0:24

Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me

0:25

for another episode. I'm your host, Jesse Butts.

0:29

Today, I'm chatting with Amanda

0:29

Kass, an MA in geography and

0:33

PhD in urban planning and policy

0:33

turned public finance analyst.

0:38

Amanda is now the associate

0:38

director of the Government

0:41

Finance Research Center

0:41

at the University of

0:43

Illinois at Chicago .

0:45

Amanda, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me.

0:47

Hey, thanks so much for having me.

0:49

Absolutely. So before we dive into the

0:51

path from geography to urban

0:57

planning to public financing

0:57

or to public finance, excuse

1:00

me, I'm wondering if you could

1:00

tell us a little bit about

1:04

what you're doing at UIC now.

1:06

What is the Government Finance

1:06

Research Center's focus?

1:09

And how do you relate to that?

1:12

Yeah. So the center, the Government

1:12

Finance Research Center,

1:15

we were launched in 2018.

1:17

So we're still a relatively

1:17

kind of new center.

1:20

And we're a research unit

1:20

within UIC, within the

1:23

College of Urban Planning and

1:23

Public Affairs, specifically.

1:27

Um, and so our mission is to

1:27

shape and inform public policy

1:31

and scholarly discourse on

1:31

government and public finance.

1:34

Kind of, I think what that

1:34

means is, we do exactly

1:37

what our name says. We study and research,

1:39

government finance.

1:42

And we kind of disseminate that

1:42

research, I think, in a variety

1:45

of mediums, because we're really

1:45

interested in shaping public

1:47

policy and public discourse. So we write blogs, we

1:49

write research papers,

1:52

we write academic papers. We do interviews like this.

1:57

You're kind

1:57

of, or not kind of, you're

2:01

a non-partisan vehicle for,

2:01

for people who are trying to

2:04

figure out what exactly is

2:04

being spent and the efficacy of

2:09

that with public institutions?

2:11

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, for me, I

2:12

came into kind of public finance

2:18

from a non kind of linear path. And so one of my interests

2:19

has long been like, How do I

2:22

explain to other people how to

2:22

research public finance issues?

2:27

How do I explain to someone

2:27

or help them get tools to

2:31

be able to understand how

2:31

their own community is

2:34

spending public dollars?

2:36

Is this at

2:36

all levels of government?

2:39

Or are you concentrated mostly

2:39

on like federal or state or

2:43

Chicago specifically or...?

2:45

We're pretty

2:45

focused on local governments,

2:47

not specific to Chicago, but

2:47

I'd say local governments

2:50

within the United States. Um, my kind of career

2:52

background is such that I also

2:56

kind of personally focus on

2:56

the state of Illinois, city

2:59

of Chicago, and other local

2:59

governments in Illinois.

3:03

Great. So now that we have a

3:05

better understanding of what

3:08

you're doing and what the

3:08

organization is all about,

3:11

can you tell us a little bit

3:11

about why you decided to go

3:18

to grad school for geography? What made you want to go

3:20

beyond your undergrad studies?

3:23

It's nice to, I don't know, I guess reflect on that a little bit.

3:26

So, I, when I went to

3:26

undergrad, when I started

3:29

undergrad, I actually had

3:29

a really strong interest in

3:32

international development

3:32

and international studies.

3:35

So I started out as an

3:35

international studies major

3:38

and I thought that I would go

3:38

on to do international work,

3:43

international development

3:43

work, but kind of found

3:46

that I wasn't totally

3:46

interested in, in doing that.

3:50

And was, you know, like many

3:50

undergrads kind of thinking

3:53

like, What else do I do? And a friend at the time

3:55

said, Hey, you should take

3:59

a geographic information

3:59

system, a GIS class.

4:03

Like GIS is some

4:03

software you can learn.

4:06

It's a practical skill. It'll open up a lot

4:07

of doors to you. And so that's, that was kind of

4:09

my introduction to geography.

4:13

And then I took some

4:13

other classes within the

4:17

geography department,

4:17

specifically, a class that

4:19

was about development. But it started with kind of a

4:21

philosophical question of, of

4:24

kind of, What is development? And introduced me to

4:26

kind of social theory.

4:29

And I just loved that class.

4:31

And that's, that's what set

4:31

me on the path for geography.

4:36

And I worked really

4:36

closely with the professor

4:39

who taught that class. And I did an

4:40

undergraduate thesis. And he really encouraged

4:41

me to kind of go on in and

4:45

pursue an academic route. And then I should say too

4:47

my, both my dad and my

4:51

brother work in academia.

4:53

So it, this was kind of like

4:53

a known career path for me.

4:58

of us, and I'm

4:58

definitely including myself

5:01

in this, who really aren't

5:01

that familiar with what one

5:04

studies in, in a geography

5:04

program, undergrad or graduate,

5:08

what kind of, of courses,

5:08

or emphases or, or focuses

5:15

can you study in geography?

5:18

Yeah. I think geography is a really

5:18

great discipline that has a

5:22

lot of sub specialties in it.

5:25

So let's say, if you're really

5:25

passionate about climate change

5:29

and issues of climate change,

5:29

there's physical geography

5:32

is one of the branches. I got to take a class

5:33

with one of the kind of

5:37

world premiere people on

5:37

climatology, who did ice

5:41

core samples as an undergrad.

5:44

There's also human geography. So if you're kind of

5:46

interested in societal

5:49

questions around, let's say

5:49

capitalism or the labor market.

5:54

Like, how does U.S. consumption impact

5:55

international issues?

5:59

You can study that in geography. And then there's also the kind

6:01

of spatial science aspect.

6:04

Like I said, doing geographic

6:04

information systems.

6:07

That I think of as kind of

6:07

more applied route with a lot

6:10

of kind of technical skills. So geography is a really big,

6:11

I think, umbrella with a lot

6:15

of really interesting branches

6:15

or sub-disciplines to it.

6:19

And you were

6:19

taking initially that more...

6:24

Is it GIS? That's an acronym for that

6:27

Yeah. Yeah. GIS. Yep.

6:29

Okay. And what are you, what are

6:29

you doing in that software

6:32

exactly, or broadly? Maybe not exactly as the

6:34

right way to phrase that.

6:37

I, the way I use

6:37

it is I think of it like a tool.

6:40

Like I think of Excel

6:40

or I think of R.

6:43

And it's a tool for

6:43

doing spatial analysis

6:46

and for map making.

6:49

So, let's say I wanna

6:49

make a map of all of the

6:55

municipalities that are

6:55

in Cook County, Illinois.

6:59

My interest is in

6:59

population growth.

7:02

So I want to be able to

7:02

visually see which communities

7:06

have seen their populations

7:06

grow and which ones have seen

7:08

their populations shrink. That's something I

7:10

can do in Arc GIS.

7:14

Is this also

7:14

like if there were...

7:17

Perhaps some like proposed,

7:17

I don't know, shopping center

7:20

or factory, is this type of

7:20

software you'd use to determine

7:23

like, you know, how big it

7:23

could be or how it would fit

7:26

or that type of thing as well?

7:27

Yeah, for sure. There's a lot you can

7:29

do in GIS software.

7:32

Think of it, like you can

7:32

put in a lot of different

7:34

layers and analyze those

7:34

layers all at once.

7:37

So let's say you, you're

7:37

considering lots of different

7:42

sites for, you said a mall or

7:42

a development, and you want

7:45

to take into consideration

7:45

transportation, environmental

7:49

impact, nearby population,

7:49

other businesses that might

7:54

feed into this new business.

7:56

You could layer all of that

7:56

in GIS and use kind of some of

8:00

the analysis tools to refine

8:00

the location and kind of narrow

8:04

it down from, let's say a

8:04

really big pool of locations

8:07

to more specified ones.

8:10

Got it. So, when you started your

8:10

master's and you were working

8:13

through that program, you

8:13

entered with this kind of, I

8:19

don't want to say GIS focus, but

8:19

maybe the route surrounding that

8:23

was what you were interested in. Did that change or evolve

8:25

as you, you engaged

8:28

more with the field?

8:30

I would say I

8:30

have kind of, um, I had dual

8:34

parts to myself at that time. So the GIS part was, I

8:36

think, rooted in a more

8:40

kind of practicality

8:40

of, I need job skills.

8:43

Cause I graduated undergrad

8:43

in 2008 when the financial

8:46

crisis was happening, right. So that was really

8:48

formative to me. And I really thought about

8:50

what kind of jobs can I get?

8:55

And I felt a real importance

8:55

of like having skills

8:58

that could land me jobs.

9:00

But then the other part of me

9:00

was, was really academically

9:03

inclined and really

9:03

interested in social theory.

9:08

Kind of critiques

9:08

about capitalism.

9:11

Um, and that was the kind of

9:11

side that I was pursuing when I

9:15

went to do the master's program. It was not kind of GIS,

9:17

rooted or practical at all.

9:20

It was really rooted in these

9:20

kinds of questions about

9:22

international development

9:22

and a kind of capitalism.

9:27

I'm sorry. I misunderstood that. As you were in your program

9:29

and you are finishing

9:32

up, did your interest in

9:32

international development,

9:36

the, you know, critiques and

9:36

questions about capitalism.

9:39

Did that intensify? Or were you leaving with kind

9:40

of a different perspective

9:43

than what you started?

9:45

Yeah, it's I

9:45

think I got kind of burnt

9:48

out in the master's program

9:48

to be totally candid.

9:50

So, again, I went there when I

9:50

started the master's program,

9:54

I thought I would continue

9:54

on into the PhD program.

9:58

So I, I kind of view

9:58

the master's as like a

10:00

stepping stone to the PhD.

10:04

And again, at that time I was doing more kind of internationally

10:05

focused research. My thesis for my masters was

10:08

about the post earthquake

10:11

reconstruction efforts in Haiti. I went to Haiti for just

10:14

about a week, and kind

10:17

of And I was particularly

10:17

interested in the kind of

10:22

outpouring of international

10:22

aid and particularly U.S.

10:26

aid that was pledged to

10:26

the reconstruction efforts.

10:29

And I was really interested in like, Where does that money actually go?

10:32

And then this, this kind

10:32

of brought up like lots of

10:35

ethical questions for me of

10:35

like, essentially, like, What

10:38

am I doing with this thesis?

10:40

Or would this work to

10:40

kind of actually make

10:42

the world a better place? And I just kind of felt like

10:44

what I was pursuing was not,

10:49

not what I wanted to do. But I didn't really know

10:51

what I wanted to do. But I just knew that the

10:53

path that I was on, wasn't

10:56

what I wanted to keep doing.

10:58

And just, just

10:58

timeframe wise, you finished

11:00

your master's in 2011.

11:02

Am I remembering that correctly?

11:04

Yep.

11:05

I know probably

11:05

technically we were out of The

11:08

Great Recession, but you know,

11:08

as far as I can recall, it

11:11

still felt like we were in the

11:11

throes or the aftershock of it.

11:14

But what did you end up

11:14

doing after you, you finished

11:17

your master's and knew that

11:17

you didn't want to pursue

11:19

the PhD in geography?

11:22

It's kind of a funny story. So I finished up my master's

11:23

at the same time that my now

11:27

husband was finishing up his

11:27

undergrad, and he was moving

11:32

to Chicago for graduate school.

11:34

So I moved, moved to

11:34

Chicago with him and

11:38

didn't really have a plan. I spent the first summer that we

11:39

were there writing my master's

11:44

thesis up and just applying to

11:44

every and any job that I could.

11:50

Because I had these GIS

11:50

skills that I developed

11:52

as an undergrad, I applied

11:52

to kind of anything

11:54

that had to do with GIS. I just applied to stuff that

11:56

had to do with public policy.

12:00

Initially, I worked

12:00

at a retail store.

12:03

I worked at Banana Republic when

12:03

we first moved there because

12:07

I really had, I had no idea,

12:07

you know, like, what's next?

12:10

What do I want to do? But I need a job.

12:13

First I want

12:13

to say that a summer in

12:15

Chicago, not knowing what

12:15

to do is a pretty good place

12:18

to be and good time of year. For anybody considering Chicago.

12:23

But, um, that plug aside. So how long were you working

12:25

at Banana Republic or, or

12:29

sorting things out before

12:29

you landed on, you know,

12:33

work that was more aligned

12:33

to, to what you were doing?

12:35

Or is that when you were

12:35

seriously considering

12:38

an urban policy PhD?

12:40

No, I wasn't. So when I came to

12:41

Chicago, I kind of knew.

12:45

I had an interest in like

12:45

some day maybe I'll, I'll

12:48

go back and pursue a PhD. There's no geography

12:50

PhD programs in Chicago.

12:55

So I was kinda like, I

12:55

don't know what's next.

12:57

I heard about the Urban Planning

12:57

and Policy Program at UIC and

13:02

thought of that as kind of

13:02

most aligned with my interests.

13:06

And actually CUPPA the college

13:06

has a job's board, just an

13:10

online kind of list of jobs. And I actually went to that

13:12

and, and looked at jobs on

13:16

there and applied to the job

13:16

that I got, which was as a

13:20

researcher for the Center for

13:20

Tax and Budget Accountability.

13:23

And I have like no idea

13:23

what was going on in my

13:27

brain that made me think I

13:27

was qualified for the job.

13:30

Because I'm like, wasn't,

13:30

it was for a position

13:34

researching Illinois'

13:34

public pension systems.

13:38

I didn't have a background

13:38

in fiscal policy or

13:43

public finance at all. I didn't know anything

13:44

about Illinois' politics.

13:47

Like I'd heard of who Rod

13:47

Blagojevich was but didn't

13:50

know anything past that. Had no awareness that

13:52

public pensions in Illinois

13:55

were underfunded or what

13:55

a huge issue this was.

13:57

Like just no idea what I

13:57

was getting myself into.

13:59

But like, there's something in

13:59

my brain that was like, Oh, like

14:03

I was interested in money when

14:03

it came to the reconstruction,

14:07

reconstruction efforts in Haiti,

14:07

this has to do with money.

14:10

This seems like an interesting

14:10

organization, I'll apply for it.

14:14

I'm lucky that I got it

14:14

and it ended up being a

14:18

really great fit for me. But I still, you know, I I'm

14:20

like, I don't know what was

14:23

going on in my brain thought,

14:23

I thought that I could do this.

14:27

I think this is a

14:27

really interesting point though,

14:30

is that we often feel that

14:30

we're not qualified or we're

14:34

far from the ideal candidate. And we let that hinder us.

14:38

But it can be taking these

14:38

chances like these that

14:41

changed the trajectory of

14:41

our careers and our lives.

14:44

Oh, Yeah. And it totally the other,

14:45

like, I don't know.

14:48

I think like funny thing that

14:48

I think back on is, I had

14:51

long said, like, I wasn't

14:51

interested in doing applied

14:56

work or public policy work. And then here I was after

14:57

my master's degree, like

15:00

gravitating towards jobs

15:00

that have direct kind

15:03

of public policy work. Or like that's really the

15:05

space that the work that

15:08

I've been doing is in. And so, yeah, it was like

15:09

not only a job that was not

15:13

quite aligned with my academic

15:13

training, but also kind of

15:17

in a field that I had long

15:17

thought is like, oh, not for me.

15:21

So what led

15:21

to that mind shift change?

15:25

That's such a good question. I wish I could like put

15:26

myself back in where I was at.

15:30

Like, I guess it was

15:30

like almost 10 years ago.

15:33

I think at the time I was

15:33

just applying to like any and

15:36

all jobs that I thought I was

15:36

remotely qualified for and that,

15:39

and that seemed interesting. And I was fortunate that the

15:41

job that I got at the Center for

15:45

Tax and Budget Accountability

15:45

was one that I really loved and,

15:48

and I think through that job,

15:48

learned how much I really do

15:52

like having a foot and kind of

15:52

the quote unquote, real world,

15:56

of impacting policy or being

15:56

able to weigh in on contemporary

16:01

policy political issues.

16:04

And so it was really like

16:04

through that job experience,

16:06

I think, that I uncovered that

16:06

what I'm really interested in.

16:11

And was that

16:11

the job prior to applying

16:16

to PhD programs and

16:16

going that route or...?

16:19

Yeah, it was. So I worked at CTBA for

16:20

several years before I

16:24

applied to the PhD program. And then when I started the

16:26

PhD program, worked there

16:30

part-time for a while.

16:32

As you

16:32

entered the urban planning

16:36

program, is public finance

16:36

typically a concentration?

16:41

Or was this kind of another

16:41

scenario of finding something

16:45

a little tangential and then

16:45

kind of making it your own?

16:49

I think it's definitely for me was a little... the latter.

16:52

Finding something that's

16:52

a little tangential and

16:54

like making it my own. Again, when I first moved to

16:56

Chicago, I had heard about CUPPA

16:59

and part of why I'd heard about

16:59

it is the person who became

17:03

my advisor, Brenda Parker, her

17:03

PhD is actually in geography.

17:07

So the urban planning and

17:07

policy program was long on

17:10

my radar as like the most

17:10

geograpyish program in Chicago.

17:18

And then there's scholars

17:18

like Rachel Weber and Phil

17:21

Ashton that their, their work

17:21

isn't kind of public finance,

17:28

but it's public finance ish. So Rachel Weber asks a lot

17:30

of questions about kind

17:33

of economic development. She does a lot of work around

17:34

tax increment financing.

17:38

And so I thought that the

17:38

program was a really good

17:41

fit with my interests. And then, I've kind of started

17:43

building up this career doing

17:46

public finance, and I wanted to

17:46

keep that, I guess, that, that

17:51

kind of career door path going.

17:53

So I kept working

17:53

throughout the PhD program.

17:57

And there are just a couple terms you mentioned that I want to

17:59

make sure that we understand.

18:02

So CUPPA, what is that?

18:04

Oh, CUPPA

18:04

is the, let me make sure

18:07

I get the acronym right. It's the College of Urban

18:09

Planning and Public Affairs.

18:12

So it's, the college at

18:12

UIC that I did my PhD in

18:15

and that I still work at. And so the college has

18:17

two different departments.

18:21

One is the public administration

18:21

department and the other is

18:25

the urban planning and policy. And so public finance

18:27

typically falls more in

18:31

public administration

18:31

departments than urban planning

18:34

and policy departments.

18:35

And you

18:35

mentioned, I actually can't

18:38

recall the definition.

18:40

I just know the acronym, TIF.

18:43

I know kind of what it is. It has to do something with

18:45

certain areas can spend

18:49

taxes in certain ways. But maybe you could give us

18:50

a real definition of that.

18:54

Uh, TIF is such a

18:54

thorny, thorny, thorny topic.

18:57

So TIF stands for tax

18:57

increment financing.

19:00

And so it's, it's an economic

19:00

development tool, basically.

19:06

So what happens is an area

19:06

gets designated a TIF district.

19:11

And so then all the properties

19:11

that are in that district, all

19:16

the properties within the TIF

19:16

district, then any growth that

19:19

is in their property value,

19:19

the taxes from the growth and

19:24

the property values is used to

19:24

finance development projects

19:28

within that TIF district.

19:30

Let's just

19:30

use Chicago as an example.

19:33

If Navy Pier expanded,

19:33

and that brought lot

19:38

of growth and revenue. Instead of that going back to

19:40

all of Chicago or for, know,

19:47

the mayor's office to figure

19:47

out how that spent that district

19:51

instead gets to decide where,

19:51

in its purview, that's spent,

19:57

versus the whole city saying,

19:57

Oh, we got a little extra money.

19:59

We can apply it in this

19:59

neighborhood five miles away.

20:02

Yeah, that's

20:02

roughly how it works.

20:05

And part of the argument

20:05

is that that extra money

20:09

wouldn't have happened

20:09

but for the development.

20:13

And so, but for this TIF

20:13

district, you wouldn't

20:16

have had that extra money. And the actual kind of mechanics

20:18

are a little more complicated.

20:20

I actually wrote, I think an

20:20

explainer about TIFs with Daniel

20:24

Kay Hertz a couple of years ago. And I think it's on my website

20:26

or it's on his website if

20:28

people are listening to this

20:28

and like scratching their

20:31

heads, like what's a TIF?

20:35

TIF and some of

20:35

these other things, these are

20:38

the kinds of things you're

20:38

interested in studying.

20:40

These implications of how how

20:40

tax revenue is collected and

20:45

how it's spent ...Are these

20:45

the things that you're diving

20:50

into more in both your PhD

20:50

program and the job that you

20:54

maintained during that time?

20:56

Yeah, definitely. And I think some of it

20:57

too was, was a desire to

21:01

provide information and

21:01

explanations to people.

21:04

So I think public finance is

21:04

often highly technical, somewhat

21:09

arcane, and there's like a

21:09

high barrier to be able to

21:14

kind of enter the conversation

21:14

in and discuss about it.

21:17

TIF is a good example of,

21:17

I think, there's a lot

21:20

of politics around TIF.

21:22

But there's also often a lot

21:22

of, kind of confusion about

21:25

the actual mechanics of TIF. How does it work?

21:28

What does it do?

21:30

As you are in

21:30

your PhD program and you're

21:36

simultaneously working full

21:36

time, what are you thinking

21:40

as you get close to your

21:40

dissertation or start working

21:43

on it as to what you want to do

21:43

after you finish the program?

21:48

That's uh,

21:48

that's a good question.

21:51

Again, as somebody who

21:51

graduated undergrad in the

21:56

last financial crisis, that

21:56

was really formative to me.

22:00

And also seeing the

22:00

kind of massive changes

22:03

I think in higher ed. So as a PhD student and somebody

22:04

in the PhD program, right, like

22:10

you're kind of trained that the

22:10

end goal is an academic job.

22:14

That the end goal is to get a

22:14

tenure track position at a R1,

22:18

you know, research institution. But those jobs are very,

22:21

very few and far between.

22:26

So I kind of, again, have this

22:26

mindset of like, I want to

22:29

keep a foot in a world outside

22:29

of academia to kind of try

22:34

and keep the maximum number

22:34

of career op the doors open.

22:39

And I was really fortunate that

22:39

the center that I'm currently

22:43

at launched in 2018, which

22:43

is around the time I think

22:48

that I started, I think I

22:48

passed my qualifying exams.

22:52

I was like all but

22:52

dissertation at that point.

22:55

And so I got the position

22:55

as the associate director.

22:58

And kind of helped launch

22:58

the center with the founding

23:02

director who is also the

23:02

Dean at the college of CUPPA.

23:06

And, I'll be like candid of

23:06

like I haven't really thought

23:09

much past my current position.

23:11

I'm fortunate that

23:11

I love this job.

23:14

We have a new director, Deborah Carroll, who started this past summer.

23:17

Who's amazing. I love working with her. We've got some really

23:19

interesting research projects that we've got going on.

23:23

So I've been fortunate though. Like, I don't really need to

23:24

think past my current job.

23:28

Nice. And just to, to clarify.

23:30

So you finished your

23:30

dissertation while working

23:34

at your current job?

23:36

Yes. Which I don't, if anybody's

23:37

interested in doing a

23:39

PhD, I don't totally

23:39

recommend doing that...

23:43

So just a

23:43

very practical question.

23:47

You were working and

23:47

going to school full time.

23:50

You finished your dissertation while you're at your full-time job.

23:53

What is it like now not

23:53

having an academic obligation

23:57

over you as you're working?

23:59

Oh, gosh. It's interesting. It took...

24:02

So, when I was working on

24:02

the dissertation, writing

24:05

it, I would start writing

24:05

at like 5.30 in the morning.

24:08

And spend a couple hours

24:08

writing and then switch over

24:11

to doing my full-time job.

24:14

And during that phase of like getting the dissertation done, there's

24:15

no work-life balance at all.

24:19

It was kind of like work

24:19

was all consuming.

24:22

And luckily my dissertation

24:22

and PhD interests somewhat

24:28

align or overlap a little

24:28

bit with my work interests.

24:30

So it wasn't like I was in

24:30

two totally different worlds.

24:34

But now that I'm done with

24:34

the dissertation, it's

24:36

been a little bit of... unlearning.

24:39

Like learning or relearning

24:39

how to have a life outside

24:44

of being a PhD student

24:44

and a full-time employee.

24:47

So like trying to

24:47

rediscover hobbies and

24:49

what to do with free time.

24:51

Are you still

24:51

like waking up at 5.30 out

24:54

of habit or have you...?

24:55

No. Oh my gosh. No. But it took, it took a little

24:57

while to like undo that, right.

25:01

And, and like undo this

25:01

feeling of like, Oh, I have

25:03

to be, I have to be like

25:03

waking up early and being

25:07

quote unquote productive. And if I'm not being quote,

25:09

unquote productive, then

25:11

I'm doing something wrong.

25:14

So reflecting back

25:14

a little bit, are there any

25:18

other areas from your study,

25:18

from your master's program

25:22

that you see a relationship

25:22

to your current work?

25:26

Like any skills or

25:26

just any of the topics

25:28

that you were studying?

25:30

Yeah. I think, some of the skills

25:30

that I developed as an undergrad

25:33

is thinking critically. So, taking a step back

25:35

and, and trying to see a

25:38

bigger picture or, engage

25:38

kind of like critically

25:41

with the question before

25:41

just like jumping into it.

25:44

I think the other big thing I

25:44

got, especially from the GIS

25:49

work was around data management

25:49

and data organization.

25:54

So I think that's like one

25:54

of my plugs for why people

25:58

should do GIS classes. In addition to learning how to

26:00

do geographic information system

26:03

work and learning that software,

26:03

you develop really good, at

26:07

least for me, you develop

26:07

really good habits for how you

26:11

organize and manage your data. And not just data, but

26:13

like any documents. Like how do you

26:15

organize Word documents? How do you deal with

26:17

version control?

26:20

That's super, I think, practical

26:20

and helpful and a skill

26:23

that you develop that can be

26:23

applicable to kind of any job.

26:27

What did, what did

26:27

you have to learn about yourself

26:29

to find work that would fit you?

26:32

Especially, ruling

26:32

out academic careers?

26:37

I wouldn't say I ruled it out. I think what I would say is

26:39

what I, what I did rule out

26:43

is viewing that as the only

26:43

path and the only marker of

26:47

success or a good career.

26:51

And I think what I had to learn

26:51

about myself, I think what

26:54

I had to learn in general is

26:54

that, is that there's lots of

26:57

other types of jobs and there's

26:57

other work that is fulfilling.

27:01

So, you know, one thing

27:01

that I learned again is

27:04

like, I really liked this

27:04

kind of more applied side.

27:07

I liked the side of doing public

27:07

policy work that was more in the

27:12

short term or in the immediacy. So as an example, Illinois,

27:14

the state of Illinois in the

27:18

state General Assembly, is

27:18

working on crafting the budget

27:21

for the upcoming fiscal year,

27:21

which will be fiscal year 2023.

27:25

And what I really enjoy during

27:25

budget season is being able

27:29

to read the proposed budget. I get asked by reporters

27:31

to kind of weigh in of,

27:34

you know, the governor put

27:34

forward his budget proposal.

27:37

What do you think about it? How's the state of

27:39

Illinois' fiscal situation?

27:42

Is it improving? Is it declining?

27:45

And I really like to

27:45

be being able to engage

27:47

in that kind of work. And I the nature of academic

27:48

work is often so longterm.

27:53

So for example, I just got

27:53

an article finally knock on

27:57

wood published, and it took

27:57

two years from the first

28:01

submission of the article

28:01

for that to get published.

28:04

And that's not even

28:04

counting the kind of data

28:06

collection and analysis time. So a two year process

28:08

for one article.

28:11

So I guess what I had to learn

28:11

a little bit about myself

28:13

too, was it was that I like... I don't like working on

28:16

just a very long term

28:19

timeline for projects. I like the mix of

28:20

short- and long-term.

28:24

I don't know if that makes any sense.

28:26

I think, I think it absolutely does. I'm wondering if we could

28:29

provide a little context for

28:31

listeners outside of Illinois.

28:34

When you talk about planning for

28:34

the state budget and that work.

28:38

Was it three, four

28:38

years that Illinois

28:41

went without any budget? I mean, just, if you could give

28:43

a little context to why this is

28:45

such a bigger deal in Illinois

28:45

than a lot of other states.

28:49

Yeah. So the, I mean, there are budget

28:50

battles in every state, and

28:54

every state has its own kind

28:54

of like fiscal year cycle.

28:57

And in some places they have

28:57

two year budgets, not an

29:01

annual budget like Illinois. But yeah, it's gosh,

29:02

long been contentious.

29:05

I think since I've been

29:05

working on Illinois finances,

29:09

which is since 2011, I think

29:09

it's always been contentious.

29:14

It kind of reached a peak during

29:14

the last governor's tenure.

29:18

So during Governor Rauner's tenure. Governor Rauner

29:20

was a Republican. There was a Democratic led

29:22

General Assembly, both in

29:27

the House and the Senate. And it was like a

29:29

loggerhead over the budget.

29:32

And so the state didn't

29:32

have a budget, a formal

29:34

budget for two fiscal years.

29:38

Again, this is why, I like

29:38

really like public finance

29:40

and love what I do is that

29:40

even saying that there was

29:43

no budget for two years,

29:43

isn't totally correct.

29:45

There's many aspects of the kind

29:45

of state's functions that are

29:49

on autopilot and that it doesn't

29:49

require the General Assembly and

29:55

governor to sign off on a budget

29:55

for spending to be occurring.

29:59

And the General Assembly

29:59

passed funding for K

30:02

through 12 education. And the governor signed

30:03

that into law, which is

30:05

one of the biggest chunks

30:05

for the state budget.

30:09

So, there was an impasse over

30:09

the budget for two years, but

30:12

not kind of all aspects of the

30:12

state's finances were affected.

30:16

And not all aspects of society

30:16

kind of felt the consequences

30:20

of the budget crisis.

30:22

You mentioned

30:22

that you love your job.

30:25

For you, how

30:25

important is job fit?

30:27

Do you need to find

30:27

a job that you love?

30:29

Or is it kind of serendipitous

30:29

for you that you have?

30:33

For me, it's huge

30:33

to find a job that I love.

30:36

And it's not just about

30:36

the work that I do.

30:39

It's also the people that I

30:39

work with, which is one of

30:43

the reasons I really love UIC. And I really love CUPPA.

30:46

And so it's been a really,

30:46

it's been a really great fit

30:48

of, I feel like I'm doing

30:48

meaningful work and I'm

30:51

getting to do that with people

30:51

I really enjoy working with.

30:55

With your

30:55

job, obviously what you do

30:57

is, is very public facing. And I don't know if it's a

31:00

step above and beyond, or

31:02

part of the job, but, I mean,

31:02

your writing has appeared

31:05

in, in Chicago Magazine,

31:05

Crain's Business Chicago.

31:09

I've seen you on uh, Chicago

31:09

Tonight, which is a show

31:14

on WTTW, which is Chicago's

31:14

PBS affiliate affiliate.

31:19

How did, did you start all that?

31:21

And how does that fit

31:21

into the job for you?

31:24

Is, is that an expectation

31:24

of your role or is that

31:27

just, I mean, your passion?

31:28

Yeah. I think that's, that's, I don't

31:29

know, nice of you to ask and

31:33

somewhat nice to reflect on. I don't, it's definitely

31:34

not a requirement of

31:36

the job, I don't think. I think it's, again, when

31:37

you were talking about, you

31:39

know, What kind of like led me

31:39

down the path, or what did I

31:42

have to uncover about myself? That's something also that

31:44

I discovered is that I like,

31:47

I personally like having

31:47

that public facing role.

31:50

I, I find it both like

31:50

terrifying to go on live

31:53

TV and live radio, but also

31:53

really like exciting and, uh, a

31:57

real, like, I dunno, a feeling

31:57

of accomplishment after it.

32:01

And also like a, just a sense

32:01

of like, you know, I watched

32:04

Chicago Tonight for a long time.

32:07

And it felt like, well,

32:07

I can be on there.

32:09

Like I knew stuff about

32:09

Illinois' finances.

32:11

I know stuff about

32:11

Chicago's finances.

32:13

I can speak to these issues. And the way that I got into

32:15

it actually was from the

32:18

first job I had in Chicago

32:18

at the Center for Tax and

32:21

Budget Accountability. I worked with somebody

32:22

there who unfortunately

32:24

has since passed away. Her name was Kathy Miller.

32:28

And I first get into this job

32:28

and she's like, Amanda, you

32:33

need, you need to introduce

32:33

yourself to this reporter.

32:37

You're now the person who studies pension. This person has a

32:40

pension question. You need to call them up

32:42

and you need to introduce

32:44

yourself to them. And I was terrified of doing

32:45

that, and very resistant.

32:50

It was like, no, no, no. I'm a researcher.

32:53

I want to sit in my little corner over here and sit on my computer

32:55

and crunch these numbers.

32:57

I don't want to call anyone. No.

33:00

But I was also, you know, new

33:00

to a job, new to this career.

33:04

And it was just like, I don't, I don't know, I guess I have to do this.

33:07

And call that person up and

33:07

introduce myself and then had

33:12

to do a public presentation to

33:12

the League of Women Voters, the

33:17

Illinois League of Women Voters. Again, another time where

33:18

it was like very terrifying,

33:21

and I very much felt like,

33:21

I don't know what I'm doing.

33:24

I'm not capable of this. But was just kind of like

33:25

shoved into doing that.

33:28

And then found like, okay,

33:28

I survived, I can do that.

33:31

And I really, I enjoy talking with people. I enjoy giving

33:33

public presentations. That's a very long-winded

33:35

answer of how I came

33:38

to do these things.

33:39

It's really fascinating. Do you do some of these

33:42

as a way to build your

33:45

brand or, you know, make

33:45

yourself more attractive

33:49

as a potential employee to

33:49

other organizations as you

33:52

move along in your career?

33:54

Hmm, that's a good question. I mean, definitely somewhat.

33:58

Like, I think one of the

33:58

valuable things that I

34:02

have, I think is the network, the network that I built in Illinois.

34:06

And I think some of those

34:06

connections though, are

34:09

like a two-way street,

34:09

especially with reporters.

34:12

So I can provide analysis to

34:12

them or help answer a question,

34:18

but sometimes reporters can

34:18

help me with, Hey, I saw this

34:21

news story that's referencing

34:21

some pending legislation, I

34:25

can't figure out what the actual bill number is. Can you tell me what that is?

34:29

Or, Hey, read a story

34:29

about this lawsuit, I

34:32

can't find a case number. Like, can you tell me

34:33

what the case number is? And so I think, yes, it's

34:35

definitely something I

34:38

can market or is valuable

34:38

about myself, but I've

34:40

also found I really like

34:40

collaborating with journalists.

34:43

And I really like this, kind

34:43

of relationship that scholars

34:47

can have with journalists as

34:47

like partnerships, not just

34:50

a kind of one way street, but

34:50

a real kind of partnership.

34:54

Earlier, you

34:54

were mentioning since you

34:57

finished your dissertation,

34:57

unlearning some things

35:00

or rediscovering hobbies.

35:04

I'm curious now, how

35:04

would you describe your

35:07

relationship to work? How large of a role does

35:08

it play in your life?

35:11

That's a really good question. And, yeah, you, you kinda

35:12

like pose this question, I

35:16

think in one of your other

35:16

interviews and I've been

35:19

thinking about it since then. And I still don't

35:22

have a good answer. But I think, for me, it

35:24

not only was I finishing

35:28

the dissertation, but I was

35:28

finishing the dissertation

35:31

during a pandemic. And finishing the dissertation

35:33

during the pandemic and

35:37

working from home and

35:37

working really remotely.

35:40

And so I think, perhaps,

35:40

with a lot of people, there's

35:43

a rethinking of like, What

35:43

is my relationship to work

35:47

if I'm working from home? And, I don't have a kind of

35:48

separation between my home

35:54

life and my work life, right? Like, it's easy to have your

35:56

job, or your, or your work

35:59

kind of creep in and take over. And I think it's really

36:01

important, to the extent that

36:04

it's possible, right, that

36:04

we, that we're kind of like

36:07

privileged to be in a position

36:07

that we can have something

36:09

of a work-life balance to

36:09

really kind of maintain that.

36:12

Which is not a

36:12

good answer at all.

36:14

I would say my work is

36:14

interests, but I also think it's

36:18

really important to kind of have

36:18

my identity not solely be my

36:23

career or not solely be my job.

36:27

What questions

36:27

should someone who's out of grad

36:31

school, and they're thinking

36:31

about pursuing maybe another

36:37

master's or a PhD or some other

36:37

advanced degree that differs

36:41

from what they studied before.

36:44

What, from your experience,

36:44

were, were some of the questions

36:48

that helped you decide to go

36:48

that urban planning, excuse me,

36:52

urban planning and policy route

36:52

after that geography experience?

36:57

I think the

36:57

first question is Why.

37:00

Why is someone doing it? What's your goal? What are you hoping

37:03

to accomplish with it? I think there's lots of

37:04

professional master's programs.

37:07

So I think for some people there can be a kind of real practicality of, I

37:09

got my undergrad in X and

37:14

I really want to pursue a

37:14

job as an urban planner.

37:17

And I've noticed that everyone

37:17

who does urban planning has

37:21

a master's in urban planning. So I really need to get that.

37:24

I want to pivot my career. And that's why I'm kind

37:25

of pursuing a master's. I think for PhD, I think

37:28

there's maybe a little less

37:31

like practicality, like

37:31

career question, but I think

37:34

it's important to reflect

37:34

on like, why ... Why do

37:37

you want to pursue this? What are you hoping

37:37

to get out of it? And reflect on too some of the

37:39

opportunity costs with going

37:43

back to grad school, right. It can oftentimes be a

37:44

pause in your career.

37:47

It can have long lasting

37:47

impacts on your kind

37:49

of salary over time. So I think reflecting on

37:51

like, Why are you going?

37:54

What's motivating you? What are you hoping

37:55

to get out of it? And then I think very

37:57

practically for somebody who's

37:59

interested in a PhD is, What

37:59

financial kind of resources

38:05

are going to be available

38:05

to you in your PhD program?

38:08

One of the key pieces of

38:08

advice that I got as an

38:11

undergrad was, Don't go into

38:11

a PhD program if they're not

38:15

offering you financial support. So if you're not going to be a

38:17

funded PhD student in a program,

38:20

don't pursue that program.

38:23

Were there

38:23

any books or Ted talks or

38:25

anything that you, you saw

38:25

or read as you were kind

38:30

of considering a different

38:30

field of study that might

38:34

be helpful to somebody else?

38:38

Sometimes I like to listen to the podcast, How I Built This.

38:41

The NPR one?

38:42

Yeah, The NPR one. Cause that often, like, I don't

38:43

know that that like inspired

38:47

me or helped me, but I find

38:47

that like an interesting one.

38:50

You hear people kind of talking

38:50

about how they built their

38:53

company and some of like the

38:53

pitfalls that they went through

38:57

in their kind of trajectory.

38:59

So I'd like to,

38:59

to wrap up with which I'll

39:02

completely acknowledge is

39:02

a pretty selfish question,

39:05

but as I've been listening

39:05

to you, I've been realizing

39:09

how ill-informed I am.

39:11

And how part of that is that it

39:11

seems so hard to find sources

39:16

related to public finance

39:16

that aren't hyper-partisan.

39:20

You know, t he headline is,

39:20

They spent $13 per donut

39:23

at this whatever meeting. So I'm curious, what advice do

39:25

you have, aside from following

39:30

the work that your organization

39:30

is doing, for people to get a

39:34

better understanding of what

39:34

revenue is being collected,

39:39

and how it's being spent, and

39:39

how effective all of this is?

39:45

Yeah, that's a great question. Again, this is one of

39:46

the challenges of... with public finance.

39:49

Again, I think there's like a really high bar to kind of get in.

39:54

Unfortunately it's easy

39:54

to sensationalize numbers.

39:57

So, I like your example

39:57

of, Oh, they spent $12 per

40:01

donut at a meeting, right. You can really like

40:03

sensationalize that.

40:06

Using Illinois as an example,

40:06

using Illinois' long-term debt

40:09

and saying, This debt equates

40:09

to $30,000 per resident.

40:14

And I think often times, people

40:14

don't realize debt, it's a

40:18

long-term obligation, right. It's something that's not going

40:19

to be paid off in one year.

40:22

So I think maybe one easy

40:22

tip or practical thing is,

40:26

If you're reading a news story and it's got like some scary number in it, some big

40:28

number, try and take a step

40:31

back and think of like, What

40:31

is actually being discussed?

40:35

Is this a short-term, is

40:35

this something that actually

40:38

gets paid off in a year? Or is it, again, if it's,

40:39

talking about debt, these

40:42

are long-term obligations.

40:45

The other thing is, if people

40:45

are interested, trying to get

40:49

involved in your local city or

40:49

your state's budget process.

40:53

Right. So when the budget cycle is

40:53

happening, kind of trying to

40:57

get involved, seeing, like,

40:57

what does the city council

41:00

do with the budget process? What do they vote on?

41:03

What are the biggest

41:03

sources of revenue?

41:05

And you can identify those,

41:05

some through budget documents.

41:09

All cities and states

41:09

put out budget documents.

41:12

Ask your local representative,

41:12

your city council member

41:15

like, I'm trying to understand

41:15

this; help me make sense?

41:17

Where do my property taxes go? Where does my income tax go?

41:21

Help me understand

41:21

where my money goes.

41:25

All right. Well, thank you, Amanda,

41:25

for joining me on the show.

41:28

This was wonderful.

41:29

And thanks for having me.