0:24

Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me

0:25

for another episode. I'm your host, Jesse Butts.

0:29

Today, I'm talking with

0:29

Jonathan Kranz, an MFA in

0:33

creative writing turned

0:33

marketing writer and trainer.

0:36

Jonathan and I met at a

0:36

marketing conference in 2019.

0:40

Jonathan is now the principal

0:40

at Kranz Communications,

0:44

a business to business

0:44

content and copywriting firm.

0:47

And he's also a workshop

0:47

and training leader

0:49

for numerous clients. Jonathan, welcome to the show.

0:52

Delighted to have you on.

0:54

Delighted to be here. Ever since you invited me, I've

0:55

been looking forward to this.

0:58

Excellent. So Jonathan, can we

0:59

talk a little bit about

1:03

what you're doing now? What type of projects

1:04

are you focusing on?

1:06

What type of clients are you working with?

1:09

Well, first of all, in terms of clients, it tends to be mostly a business to

1:10

business, not so much a B to C.

1:15

So for everyone to know

1:15

I'm a marketing copywriter,

1:17

which means that I write

1:17

the anonymous stuff that

1:20

you may find annoying. It could be a commercial

1:21

interrupt something you watching, less

1:23

likely that junk mail.

1:26

But today, most of that work

1:26

is really web-related just like

1:29

everything else in marketing

1:29

has changed through digital.

1:33

So I would say that the bulk

1:33

of my work has to do with

1:37

digital one way or another. Website copy, content that is,

1:39

you know, stuff that you can

1:43

download from the web, including

1:43

eBooks and white papers, scripts

1:46

for videos, email, email blasts,

1:46

email campaigns, articles,

1:53

occasional blog posts... just about anything that

1:54

a B2B marketer would

1:58

need to get the word out. My clients tend to fall into

1:59

these categories, high-tech,

2:03

healthcare, financial

2:03

services, business services

2:07

and higher education. That, that's the

2:08

core of my business.

2:10

And is any of that

2:10

work on social media or are you

2:13

pretty dedicated to web work?

2:17

You know, very little of it is directly tied to social media.

2:20

What typically happens is

2:20

I'll create content that'll

2:23

then be supported with a

2:23

campaign that may or may not

2:26

be conducted on social media.

2:28

Very often it'll be more

2:28

like a banner ads that may

2:32

appear with a, a social

2:32

media post, et cetera.

2:35

What I have found, I know

2:35

this will be controversial

2:37

at least in the B2B space,

2:37

social media is not really

2:41

a significant player in

2:41

marketing and sales for B2B.

2:45

Some will argue differently,

2:45

but I would say to

2:47

them, show me the proof. I just don't see it.

2:51

All right. If there is a guest out

2:52

there that has that proof,

2:54

I welcome you onto the show. Maybe we could have a, a

2:56

little, a three-way discussion.

2:58

I would love it.

3:00

Uh, so, but, uh,

3:00

Jonathan, I'm curious, when did

3:02

you found Kranz Communications?

3:04

That was

3:04

1996, January of 1996.

3:08

In August of 95, my first

3:08

daughter, Rebecca was born.

3:14

I was working as a paralegal

3:14

in downtown Boston and one

3:18

day at a company event, in

3:18

which the boss invited the

3:21

family to come over, you

3:21

know, our families to join us.

3:24

I remember the boss met my

3:24

daughter for the first time.

3:27

She was only like two, three

3:27

months old at this event.

3:29

And a boss put his arm around

3:29

my shoulder, and he says,

3:33

Jonathan, I love it when

3:33

my employees either buy a

3:38

house, get married or have

3:38

a baby because then I know

3:41

they're my wage slave forever. And he didn't, he

3:43

wasn't being mean. He was a good man.

3:47

But what I recognized in

3:47

that moment was that, he

3:51

was absolutely correct. That if I didn't take

3:52

charge of my life, if I

3:54

didn't seize it, yeah, then

3:54

I would be a wage slave.

3:58

And that was the inspiration

3:58

for me to find a new

4:00

direction that ultimately

4:00

culminated in starting my

4:04

business in January of 96.

4:06

Great. So if we could go back

4:07

a little bit to...

4:10

Sure.

4:11

...more of your educational background. I'm curious, you know, what,

4:13

what was the reason you

4:16

enrolled in grad school? What made you want to go beyond

4:17

undergrad with your studies?

4:21

Well, you

4:21

know, I graduated from

4:24

Rutgers with a degree in art.

4:26

Not art history. But making art. Oil painting, specifically,

4:28

was my big concentration.

4:31

And my initial thing

4:31

was, you know, was going

4:34

to be a visual artist. And that just didn't work

4:36

out for any number of reasons.

4:40

I, I think my original plan

4:40

was, I'd work whatever job I

4:44

could find, and then I would

4:44

paint at nights and weekends.

4:46

And then what I would find

4:46

is that the evenings I'd

4:48

be exhausted because by the

4:48

time I made the commute home,

4:51

prepared a meal, I mean,

4:51

there was like an hour or two,

4:54

and I was ready to go to bed

4:54

and get up for the next day.

4:58

And then the weekends would

4:58

come and I was so drained

5:00

that it was just hard

5:00

to get anything moving.

5:02

So long story short that

5:02

didn't, the art itself,

5:07

didn't go anywhere. And so I spent a number of

5:08

years wandering around the

5:10

wilderness thinking, you know, What am I going to do to make a living , much less, you

5:12

know, have a meaningful career?

5:15

And it occurred to me, you

5:15

know, I wasn't a bad writer.

5:18

A lot of my teachers had

5:18

complimented me for my

5:20

writing and I thought, Well, is there something I do with, I could do with that?

5:24

And at this point, my original

5:24

intention was totally mercenary.

5:27

I thought, How can

5:27

I make money writing?

5:29

And I thought about technical writing. I didn't know much about it.

5:31

Commercial writing, didn't know much about it. So I thought I'd go to school.

5:35

And as I started studying

5:35

what options would be for a

5:38

graduate degree in writing,

5:38

I was highly encouraged

5:42

to skip any program that

5:42

concentrated in tech writing

5:45

and go directly to the MFA. The thinking was that that would

5:47

give, you know, the greatest

5:50

flexibility for any kind of

5:50

writing I might want to do.

5:53

Plus, the MFA is regarded as

5:53

a terminal degree, which means

5:58

it can qualify me to teach at a

5:58

institution of higher learning,

6:01

a college or university. So I said, What the hell?

6:04

And in preparation for the MFA,

6:04

I got into fiction writing.

6:07

I started writing on my own, and

6:07

then that's what I concentrated

6:10

on when I got my MFA. And I finished that, I

6:12

think around early 95.

6:18

Did the dream

6:18

of painting on the nights and

6:22

weekends turn into a dream

6:22

of writing fiction on the

6:26

nights and weekends, once

6:26

you secured a better job?

6:28

Well, here's the thing. What happened was I got my,

6:30

finished my MFA, and as I

6:35

was working as a paralegal,

6:35

as I said earlier, and

6:37

then I had that epiphany

6:37

that I described to you.

6:40

And my initial thought was,

6:40

If I could work for myself, I

6:44

could work on my fiction for a

6:44

couple of hours in the morning

6:47

and then dedicate myself to,

6:47

to the business um, throughout

6:51

the remainder of the day. And, and then what really

6:52

happened, and this is also

6:54

kind of an interesting story

6:54

is that, you know, a couple

6:57

of years in, and I realized

6:57

that there were two things.

7:01

One is that it was harder

7:01

and harder for me to get

7:03

myself motivated to write

7:03

fiction in the mornings.

7:06

And a lot of that was, you

7:06

know, when you're thinking

7:08

about an impending deadline

7:08

ahead, my thought was, You

7:11

know, I'd rather just do the

7:11

client work and get this done.

7:13

And get the money. And I also realized, too,

7:15

that, to really build

7:17

the business would take

7:17

a complete commitment.

7:20

So I gave myself permission to

7:20

quit writing fiction and to just

7:24

focus on building the business. I now, at this point, I have

7:26

two children, a first home, a

7:30

mortgage, and all the things

7:30

that go with that, that I'm

7:32

sure everyone who's listening

7:32

to this, or many of the

7:34

people listening to this will

7:34

understand or appreciate.

7:37

Ironically, as it turns

7:37

out, years later, leaping

7:42

ahead to 2009, I got the

7:42

inspiration to write a novel.

7:45

And after a six year torturous

7:45

process of writing, looking

7:48

for an agent, looking for a

7:48

publisher, I did indeed get

7:51

that novel published in 2015.

7:54

Oh, congratulations. So you're at this point where,

7:56

you finished grad school and

8:00

you had, as you mentioned... I'm not sure how to phrase

8:03

it, if it was career

8:05

ambitions, but you went

8:05

into it fairly practically.

8:08

You liked the flexibility

8:08

the degree would offer you.

8:13

Yes. And at that point to

8:13

my mind had changed. I thought, yes, I'm

8:15

going to do this. I'm going to become

8:16

a fiction writer. So I had turned.

8:19

My initial motivation was,

8:19

figure out some kind of

8:22

commercial application. Then I got into fiction,

8:24

got the degree, and then

8:26

I changed yet again. Back and forth, back and

8:27

forth kind of quality.

8:30

And I hope that's also useful

8:30

to your, your audience.

8:32

That not everything is linear.

8:36

There can be a cyclical

8:36

or iterative quality

8:38

to our journeys. In fact, most of the time

8:40

that, that's the way they actually really do evolve.

8:44

So you were a

8:44

paralegal and then you left

8:47

that in, I believe you said

8:47

96 to start your own firm.

8:52

I, I personally would feel

8:52

so intimidated going from a

8:57

paralegal to a solo marketer.

9:01

What was that transition like?

9:03

I'd like to

9:03

say that I went into it, you

9:05

know, with just complete 100%

9:05

confidence and, you know,

9:09

just damn the torpedoes. But the truth was I recognized

9:10

that there was risk here.

9:13

I had never done anything like

9:13

this and no one in my family had

9:16

ever done anything like this. So, it was risky.

9:21

I recognize that because

9:21

even if the wage work I was

9:24

doing wasn't that wasn't

9:24

particularly rewarding or even

9:27

renumerative, it was at least

9:27

stable and reliable, you know,

9:32

you do the work and every two

9:32

weeks there's a check, right?

9:35

Or, or was something similar to that. And I remember even, my,

9:37

again, my, my baby Becca

9:41

she's, you know, wakes up in

9:41

the middle night and I get

9:43

up to, to walk her, you know,

9:43

to get her back to sleep.

9:46

And I'm walking up and

9:46

down the hallway, just

9:49

doing the math in my head

9:49

and thinking, Am I crazy?

9:52

Is this the right thing to do? Am I nuts? Here I am. I'm a husband.

9:54

I'm a father. Does this make sense? Is this self-indulgent?

9:57

And this went on for weeks. But I held to my initial

9:59

deal with myself and that

10:01

deal was, Look, I would find

10:01

three clients, three pieces

10:05

of business, and then I

10:05

would commit fully full-time.

10:07

And let me just explain, there was a little bit of a transition.

10:10

So I, toward the end of 95, as I

10:10

was still a paralegal, I managed

10:13

to pick up some pieces of work. I did my first freelance work.

10:16

In fact, it was for a,

10:16

the very first commercial

10:20

writing I did was for a video

10:20

catalog, a little digest

10:24

size video catalog, where my

10:24

job was literally to write

10:27

little descriptions of the

10:27

movies that people would

10:29

order from the catalog. This is pre-internet.

10:31

And then after that, I managed

10:31

to pick up some work with a

10:35

former studio mate of mine,

10:35

Glen Wish, who left art

10:39

school to found his own graphic

10:39

design studio and business.

10:43

And he gave me a break and had

10:43

gave me some assignments and

10:46

included a catalog called Sound

10:46

Exchange by Warner Bros., which

10:50

sold kind of a pop culture

10:50

related merchandise, kind of

10:54

music related merchandise. So in addition to CDs and

10:55

DVDs, it would have things

10:58

like, you know, t-shirts and

10:58

wall hangings and all kinds

11:01

of, you know, gimcrack and

11:01

crapola, you know, you name it.

11:06

And then I did a lot of, also

11:06

for him, I did stuff with

11:09

Publishers Clearing House. So I had that.

11:12

And then I said, I need two other things. And I got two other

11:14

gigs, and I said, Okay. I gave my resignation

11:16

notice and I dived in.

11:19

Wow. So it sounds like a

11:20

critical part of that...

11:25

I'm not sure if you want to

11:25

call it networking or just

11:28

simply stating your intentions,

11:28

but I mean, you, you built

11:33

before you launched, right.

11:37

Yes a bit.

11:39

And the other thing to

11:39

consider is that at first,

11:43

my first inclination was to

11:43

continue being a low wage

11:47

slave by finding another wage

11:47

slave thing, but in writing.

11:52

And I started doing

11:52

all the things, a job

11:54

seeker is supposed to do. You know, those informational

11:55

interviews you conduct

11:58

with people, et cetera. And it was during the course

11:59

of that, those interviews

12:01

that I had a kind of insight. So the year is 1995, and

12:03

my brother Christopher was

12:05

generous enough to buy me

12:05

my first real computer.

12:09

This was a Pentium 75 woo-hoo.

12:12

At the time, that was

12:12

a big freaking deal.

12:14

Right. And that would have been,

12:15

you know, one, a version of

12:18

Windows 3, I think at that time. But one day I'm sitting in

12:20

my room with this computer

12:24

that, you know, probably

12:24

between games of Doom and,

12:27

and I realize, hold it.

12:30

The modern computer

12:30

is an office in a box.

12:34

It's a place to create your work. It's a place to store your work.

12:39

It's a place to communicate,

12:39

you know, via fax or email.

12:43

You could do your

12:43

books on that computer.

12:45

In fact, everything that

12:45

you would need from an

12:49

employer is in the computer. As long as you're willing,

12:51

in this case, I'm willing,

12:55

to go out and hunt. That is, to go out and

12:57

get the business itself. When I realized the technology

12:59

was available to enable the

13:03

independence, it also occurred

13:03

to me that, You know what?

13:07

Starting out my own would

13:07

be no more difficult

13:10

than trying to find a job

13:10

with a regular employer.

13:13

Because either way I had

13:13

to build a portfolio.

13:16

And I said, you know, if I'm

13:16

going to develop a portfolio

13:19

of sample work, why not

13:19

just do that for myself?

13:23

Well, now I'm, I'm

13:23

waxing nostalgic slightly for

13:26

my Pentium 166 Packard Bell.

13:28

It, it wasn't too

13:28

far after yours.

13:33

So, I want to talk a bit

13:33

about building the business.

13:38

After you, you got some clients

13:38

and you put the work into it.

13:42

You know, I hate to embarrass

13:42

you, but I mean, you're a

13:44

fairly well-established writer. You know, you're involved

13:46

in Content Marketing World. You're at a lot of conferences,

13:48

you've worked with pretty

13:51

prestigious clients. What were those early days

13:53

like once you, you really

13:57

started getting full time, to

13:57

becoming a pretty well-known

14:02

voice in your field.

14:04

So I'm going to tell you the truth. That first year I made a

14:07

whopping $18,000, more or less.

14:12

18,000.

14:13

Like in 1996?

14:14

Yes, in 1996.

14:17

Okay.

14:17

And I spent that

14:17

year aggressively networking.

14:23

At that time, again, still,

14:23

this is very early internet.

14:27

The internet existed, but it

14:27

really wasn't a useful tool yet.

14:30

You have to remember very early. I don't even know...

14:32

the first browser may have

14:32

come out by this time, but

14:35

it was still a novelty. It was not what it is today,

14:36

which is just like the glue

14:39

for our entire society. At that time it

14:40

was still novelty. So, any networking was

14:42

meant face-to-face.

14:46

And I would actually, I

14:46

subscribed to a paper, the

14:48

Boston Business Journal. Every town, every city,

14:49

I think has one of these. There's a Milwaukee

14:51

Business Journal. New York. Whatever.

14:53

So Boston Business Journal,

14:53

the reason I subscribed most

14:56

of all was because it would

14:56

have an events calendar.

14:58

And so there are things like the

14:58

American Marketing Association,

15:01

the Business Marketing

15:01

Association, the New England

15:03

Direct Marketing Association,

15:03

the New England Society for

15:06

Healthcare Communicators. The Society of

15:08

Independent Consultants.

15:11

New England Editorial Society.

15:13

I mean one group after another. So I would say I was doing

15:14

events like two or three a week

15:18

to network, network and network.

15:22

And, it panned out.

15:25

And here's, here's the thing about it. If I took the attitude one

15:27

by one, you know, go to an

15:30

event and then that night

15:30

evaluate, was it worth it?

15:32

Most of the time we would've said, No. I mean, you get a few business

15:34

cards, you follow up with,

15:36

you know, some correspondence. And most of the time nothing

15:38

would come out of it. But you do it for the few times

15:40

when it hits, because that's

15:42

it, that's your traction. That's where you start. And through that networking,

15:45

I was able to develop some

15:49

contacts that did lead to work. And, and that goes to part two.

15:52

Well, how do you grow a business? Well, one opportunity

15:53

came to itself was

15:56

from a local hospital.

15:58

Local hospital had

15:58

a PR department and

16:01

they needed articles. They just contracted with

16:02

a local paper where they

16:04

would do an article a week

16:04

allegedly from one of their

16:08

providers, one of the doctors. So my job was to ghost write.

16:11

The payment for these was ridiculous. It was like a buck 25,

16:13

a buck 50 an article.

16:15

I mean, I mean 150, of

16:15

course, but still really low.

16:19

But at the time I was

16:19

thrilled because again, you

16:22

know, I needed the money and

16:22

it also gave me a toehold.

16:25

So what I did next is what's important. Is that once I did one or

16:28

two articles, I said, you

16:31

know what I'm going to do? I'm going to start marking

16:32

myself as a healthcare writer.

16:35

And what I did was I joined a

16:35

whole bunch of organizations

16:39

that were about healthcare

16:39

marketing, largely just to

16:41

get their mailing lists. And I literally built a

16:43

database through WordPerfect.

16:47

Because WordPerfect had that capability. We could develop a base

16:49

directly from the program for

16:51

mail merge, and I compiled

16:51

the list, you know, from

16:55

multiple groups of, you know,

16:55

hundreds of persons long.

17:00

And I would do bulk mailings. You know, myself with just

17:01

a regular, then my Pentium

17:04

75, that Hewlett-Packard,

17:04

you know, laser jet printer.

17:09

And a bunch of envelopes

17:09

and just a lot of licking

17:12

of stamps, et cetera. And, you know, the response

17:14

rates were of course

17:16

low, but because they

17:16

naturally are ,right.

17:18

You know, 3% was considered

17:18

a very good, but imagine that

17:22

means if you do a hundred pieces

17:22

of mail, maybe three responses.

17:25

So the truth was I do more

17:25

than a hundred, maybe 300, 350.

17:28

Maybe I get four responses. But of those four, you

17:31

should convert one. That's all I needed.

17:34

That's all I needed. And I would just keep doing it.

17:36

So it was a pattern of that. I would just keep doing that.

17:39

And over time the portfolio just grew. I had more and more healthcare,

17:41

but I began to diversify.

17:43

I made an important contact at

17:43

an agency that no longer exists

17:47

called CPS Direct Mail outfit.

17:51

And that was phenomenal. I worked with a brilliant

17:53

creative director

17:55

named Evan Stone. Wonderful man.

17:57

Learned the ropes from him

17:57

about the essentials of

18:01

direct marketing copywriting. And from there, I was able

18:03

to build on that experience.

18:05

Again, with the similar

18:05

process of developing mailing

18:08

lists, doing those mailings,

18:08

continuing the networking and

18:12

gradually little bit by little

18:12

bit, building up a business.

18:16

In fact, so much so that the

18:16

second year of my business,

18:20

I more than tripled what

18:20

I made the first year.

18:22

So the second year I made

18:22

around 66,000 I think.

18:25

97. Now in today's dollars

18:26

that...yeah, exactly 1997.

18:30

That, that ain't hay. That's not bad.

18:33

And for me, it was the first

18:33

time in my professional career

18:36

that I was really successful. Because after college ... you

18:37

know, I'd worked a

18:40

number of crummy jobs. Like so many, you

18:41

know, the kind of... I did picture framing.

18:44

I waited tables, you know,

18:44

all kinds of different stuff.

18:48

But this was it. I was like, Holy shit. I've made this happen.

18:50

I'm, it's for real now. I'm a success, you know, I'm,

18:51

I'm actually making it happen.

18:54

And that's really the story, you know. I think the other thing I want

18:56

to say about this is not only

18:59

the sense of, you know, get

18:59

that initial traction, then

19:02

expand, exploit it to expand

19:02

it and get more business.

19:05

But also I would say to

19:05

people, Expect that career

19:08

to change over time. For example, I did a lot of

19:10

healthcare writing back then.

19:13

Today, not so much. I do it occasionally, but

19:14

not the way I used to do it.

19:17

Another thing that's changed is,

19:17

I used to do a lot of junk mail.

19:20

A lot of direct mail packages. Loved doing that.

19:22

You'd have to write the envelope, you'd have to, you know, with a teaser, then

19:24

you'd have the letter, the

19:26

push note, the brochure. The, a lift note I mean.

19:29

Everything. And it was fun to create those

19:30

packages, but then as you,

19:33

as you know, in the early

19:33

2000s, with the rise of the

19:36

internet, direct mail response

19:36

rates just bottomed out.

19:41

I mean, I watched it

19:41

literally year over year.

19:43

So I'd see 1999 people

19:43

saying, Whoa, 3% is great.

19:48

2000, if you can get 2%.

19:50

2001, one and a half percent. By 2002, it was like,

19:52

if you could get 0.75%

19:56

response, you're doing great. But, that isn't great.

19:59

The business was collapsing

19:59

and even my own direct

20:02

mail efforts that I just

20:02

described were failing.

20:05

I would send out 700

20:05

letters and get nothing.

20:08

Zip. Silence. And that was really scary.

20:12

And, and again, I

20:12

morphed my career.

20:15

Obviously, I turned

20:15

a more digital turn.

20:17

The webpage, my website

20:17

became more important.

20:20

But also it became more

20:20

important to write for the

20:24

web at that, at that point. It became about the web pages

20:25

plus content that people

20:29

could access via the web. And it's been like

20:30

that ever since.

20:33

Sending the

20:33

letters, I mean, people

20:35

call it outbound marketing

20:35

or push marketing.

20:39

But then in the early 2000s,

20:39

you know, there is that

20:41

switch of, Why should I wait

20:41

for someone to contact me?

20:45

I'll just go online and find what I need. And that, you know,

20:47

became inbound marketing

20:50

or pull marketing. So that's when you adapted, like

20:51

you were talking about earlier,

20:55

to create content that when

20:55

people were looking for someone

20:59

like you, that's how they find

20:59

you versus you putting more

21:03

effort into finding people.

21:05

Absolutely Jesse, that's a stone-cold truth.

21:07

So for me now marketing

21:07

becomes less pushing stuff

21:10

out and hoping people respond

21:10

to really create, for my own

21:14

purposes, creating content. And that kind of content

21:16

could be, for instance, the

21:18

stuff on my blog, it could

21:18

be ... I had an e-newsletter

21:21

newsletter for awhile. It could be the newsletter. It could also be writing

21:23

articles that would appear either in print.

21:27

Like I. Eventually, I did articles

21:27

for the Boston Business Journal, for example.

21:30

And then increasingly

21:30

online publications.

21:32

Like I, I did a lot of

21:32

stuff for Marketing P rofs.

21:37

Did a lot of articles for them, and that was incredibly productive.

21:41

And of course, speaking,

21:41

public speaking.

21:43

So a little hint for people. If you can do speaking, if

21:44

that's something that doesn't

21:48

scare you, do it, because most

21:48

of your competitors won't.

21:53

So you get an instant

21:53

advantage right there.

21:56

So I'd say that my apperance

21:56

at Content Marketing World,

21:59

speaking and public speaking

21:59

is a large part of what

22:03

draws the leads in today.

22:05

I do really

22:05

want to talk about speaking

22:08

and workshops, leading

22:08

seminars, that type of thing.

22:13

But before we get into that, there's something I'm curious about.

22:16

You've also spent a lot of

22:16

time talking about networking

22:20

and pounding the pavement. As you were going through

22:22

this, were you frustrated that

22:24

you weren't spending all your

22:24

time working on client work?

22:26

Or did you kind of get this

22:26

little entrepreneurial itch

22:30

of, you know, making deals

22:30

and, and building a business?

22:33

Well, you brought up an essential thing. If you go out on your

22:35

own, as a consultant or

22:38

a service provider, you

22:38

instantly have two jobs.

22:43

One job is whatever it is you do. For instance, I write

22:45

copy for clients. But then there's the second job.

22:48

And that job is marketing

22:48

my own business,

22:51

promoting Jonathan Kranz. And I think that that's the

22:53

difference between people

22:56

who do well freelancing

22:56

and those who don't is...

22:58

I think that the, the ones who

22:58

understand that they have that

23:04

second job of self promotion

23:04

are going to, are going to be

23:08

much more likely to make it. When I see freelancers

23:10

fail, it typically follows

23:13

a model like this... You find someone who's working

23:14

for a company, finds that

23:18

the clients love him or her.

23:20

And maybe one of the clients

23:20

even makes a pass, saying,

23:23

Hey, if you leave this place, you know, we got plenty of work for you, et cetera.

23:27

And so you, you leave, intending

23:27

to coast on the contacts you

23:31

already made when you were

23:31

previously a full-time employee.

23:34

And that typically works

23:34

maybe two to three years.

23:38

And then what happens is,

23:38

is that there's a life cycle

23:40

to any client engagement. You don't get clients forever.

23:43

Maybe it only lasts one project. Maybe it's a series of projects.

23:47

Maybe you get a couple of years. But it's rare to get more

23:49

than a few years out of

23:52

a client relationship. Client business changes.

23:55

They take a new path. Another agency comes in.

23:57

There's so many reasons why

23:57

they may change their talent.

24:00

So what that means is if

24:00

you're not continually

24:03

refilling that funnel with

24:03

prospects, eventually you're

24:06

going to run out of clients and run out of business. So it's really critical,

24:08

critical for anyone who

24:11

wants to go independent to

24:11

consider that independence

24:15

means having to invest in

24:15

your own self promotion.

24:19

And speaking of self promotion, just like you mentioned

24:21

earlier, public speaking.

24:24

Can you talk a little bit about maybe... I don't know if it's

24:27

specifically that first opportunity or some of those

24:28

early ones and how you, you

24:32

started that and what you saw

24:32

from, from those experiences?

24:37

Yes, I can. So, as, as I said

24:38

earlier, I attend a lot

24:40

of networking events. And at many of these events,

24:41

they follow a similar format.

24:43

You know, there's like a

24:43

cocktail hour for, you know,

24:46

and schmoozing for about

24:46

an hour, hour and a half.

24:49

Then maybe there's a

24:49

meal and a speaker, Q&A,

24:52

and everyone goes home. And at first I was

24:54

really intimidated.

24:56

I thought to be a speaker,

24:56

you have to just know so

24:59

much about your topic. You, you have to be an expert

25:01

in order to get up in front

25:03

of all these people, right. And then after attending a

25:05

number of these events and

25:09

realizing that the level of

25:09

quality was often marginal.

25:14

Every once in a while you'd hit, you, you'd find a fantastic speaker

25:16

and you'd be so grateful.

25:19

You'd learn so much. You'd be inspired.

25:21

You'd get practical information you could use. But unfortunately, that

25:23

was kind of the exception.

25:26

Most of the time, it was pretty mediocre. And I recognized a

25:28

couple of things. One, the bar is low.

25:32

So good news everyone who is thinking about speaking. The bar is really low.

25:36

That's kind of good for you. The second thing I realized

25:38

is that you don't have

25:41

to know everything. Even if you know a small

25:42

thing that has value for

25:46

your audience, a little

25:46

thing, that's enough.

25:49

Talk about that for 40 minutes. And you can.

25:52

You don't have to have the answers to the secrets of the universe.

25:55

Do you know something that would

25:55

be useful to your audience?

25:59

Yes? Good. Go for it. Do it. Run with it.

26:02

So a little piece of advice

26:02

is, if you're stuck for

26:06

an idea, think about ways

26:06

that you would challenge

26:09

the conventional wisdom in your industry or field. And talk about that.

26:12

Saying, everyone says, Do zig.

26:14

But I'm telling you, You should zag. Here's why.

26:17

There's a speaking topic.

26:20

I'm guessing

26:20

we're kind of in the 2000s now.

26:23

you you're, you're pretty well established. You've done some speaking.

26:27

At least from what I've seen

26:27

from people's listings on

26:30

websites, like, workshops

26:30

can be kind of, I don't

26:33

know if goldmine is really the right term, but they can be pretty lucrative.

26:37

I know this is something

26:37

that you've done as well.

26:40

Are workshops something

26:40

that, in your experience,

26:42

a lot of speaking led to?

26:44

Or how did you get to

26:44

that position to be able to

26:47

do those types of things?

26:49

Well, it was a combination of feeling comfortable with speaking, and

26:50

then also in 2004, I published

26:56

Writing Copy for Dummies. So, you know, those yellow

26:58

and black Dummies books. So I wrote one, I wrote

27:00

the one on copywriting.

27:02

So that experience

27:02

was interesting.

27:05

No one ever picked up

27:05

the book and then called

27:09

me to give me business. That never happened.

27:11

So that did not happen. I have gotten the calls,

27:13

of course, from other writers saying, Gee, how

27:15

did you get the book deal?

27:17

Can you tell me what the secret is? Or, Gee, I'd like to

27:19

start as a copywriter.

27:21

Can you help me? And usually I do help . But

27:22

what it really did, the virtue

27:24

of that book was that it opened

27:24

up speaking opportunities and

27:29

article writing opportunities. You know, it was the strength

27:31

of the Writing Copy for

27:33

Dummies that I had credibility

27:33

with Marketing Profs.

27:36

So I published a bunch

27:36

of articles for Marketing

27:39

Profs, and then I have

27:39

credibility to organizations

27:42

that have conferences, you know, host conferences and looking for speakers.

27:46

The workshop, I'm trying to

27:46

remember, I think I started

27:49

that about ... 14 years ago?

27:52

And I really did it as an experiment. I just said, I now offer this.

27:55

And seeing would...you

27:55

know, run up the flag and

27:57

see if anyone would salute. What made my workshop

27:59

distinctive is that I

28:03

said, One, we would develop

28:03

the curriculum together.

28:06

There is no pre-made curriculum. We would have a conversation,

28:09

talk about the outcome

28:11

that you desired. And then I would customize

28:12

a curriculum to the

28:15

outcomes you want. It's all, exercise-based.

28:18

And I got some bites. And a couple of things happened.

28:21

One, I found that they are

28:21

lucrative, or they can be.

28:24

And number two is that I really

28:24

enjoy doing them, and find that

28:28

a very rewarding, meaningful

28:28

experience helping other people

28:34

become better at what they

28:34

do or discover talents that

28:37

they did not know they had. So that's always been an

28:40

exciting part of my business. Not always, but it has become

28:42

an exciting part of my business.

28:46

What were you

28:46

doing to, to learn the ropes

28:50

of copywriting and marketing,

28:50

especially since you, you

28:54

didn't work somewhere full

28:54

time for a couple of years

28:57

to, to learn the ropes?

28:58

That's right. So you made an

28:59

interesting point. I learned after I launched

29:01

a business that I had

29:04

done it the wrong way. The thing I was supposed to do

29:05

was get some years of experience

29:09

either in-house, that is working

29:09

for a, for a company, right, on

29:12

their in-house marketing team. Or for an agency.

29:16

And I had done neither. I just started freelancing.

29:18

And I didn't know that

29:18

was novel until after I

29:21

did fulfill the novelty. This audience, the temptation

29:24

will be to go back to school

29:30

to learn something new. And think about it.

29:32

If you're a person that you

29:32

finished undergraduate, then

29:35

you're, you're able to actually

29:35

get into a grad school, which

29:37

is not necessarily that easy. You have to, you know, the,

29:39

the application process can be a real pain in the butt.

29:42

You go to grad school. And now you're, you may

29:44

have debt from undergrad.

29:47

Debt from grad school. And you realize I want a change.

29:50

You know, whatever, whatever reason, whatever you studied in grad school

29:52

is not going to be it. So the thing is you'll say

29:53

that, I need something else. You may think, OK I'll go

29:55

to school again, or I'll go through a certificate program.

29:59

I would discourage that. I would say, do something

30:00

different this time.

30:03

And that is, find a way

30:03

to learn independently

30:06

or learn on the job. And if there is a certificate or

30:09

another graduate degree involved

30:13

that's necessary, let the

30:13

employer pay for it if you can.

30:17

So what I did specifically in my

30:17

case is that no, I did not get

30:21

into a certificate program for

30:21

marketing or marketing copy.

30:25

I did two things. I did that networking

30:25

I told you about. And also that networking also

30:28

included some events that

30:30

were instructive in nature. That became very important

30:32

to me, like this is a program on copywriting.

30:35

Great. I attended those. I also read some books.

30:38

People forget that books

30:38

are still a major resource,

30:41

even with the web. And in fact, that could be

30:42

your secret weapon, is that

30:45

you're willing to sit down and

30:45

invest the time to actually

30:47

read a book, or many books,

30:47

cover to cover, which a

30:51

lot of people reluctant to. I found, especially how helpful,

30:52

for those of you interested

30:56

in copywriting, John Caples'

30:56

Tested Advertising Methods is

30:59

a classic from back in the Dark

30:59

Ages, I think of the 40s or 50s.

31:03

But it's still a masterpiece,

31:03

still relevant today.

31:06

Another book I liked is

31:06

Ogilvy on Advertising.

31:09

That book is as informative as

31:09

it is fun and enjoyable to read.

31:13

Ogilvy has a lot of wisdom to share and I learned a lot from him.

31:17

And then you just pick up things

31:17

like, you know, if you could

31:19

attend conferences, you could

31:19

pick up things through osmosis.

31:21

Not just through the sessions,

31:21

but in your networking, your

31:24

BS-ing with other people,

31:24

you learn this stuff.

31:28

And then finally, you know, you,

31:28

the ultimate way you learn is

31:31

you learn by doing it, right. Trial and error and

31:33

that kind of thing.

31:36

But I really would encourage

31:36

people to say your next step,

31:40

see what measures you can

31:40

take to learn without having

31:44

to acquire any more debt. Or absorb more of your

31:45

time because that's

31:48

really burdensome.

31:50

So with all of

31:50

these experiences and with all

31:53

of these things, your business

31:53

offers, what have you found

31:56

most enjoyable about your work?

31:58

It's the

31:58

satisfaction of knowing that

32:00

I helped other people do their

32:00

jobs and reach their goals.

32:04

That I actually contributed

32:04

something meaningful that

32:08

moved things forward,

32:08

especially if it's challenging.

32:11

I like the challenging stuff,

32:11

not the sexy, easy stuff.

32:14

I like the difficult stuff. And I find it really exciting

32:16

too, to in the hard work,

32:19

the hard thinking, you know,

32:19

consider what avenues are of

32:23

attack are really available. Pursue them as

32:25

effectively as you can.

32:27

And then you'd get the share

32:27

in the satisfaction that just

32:29

have a job well done, but

32:29

a job well done with other

32:32

people who are counting on you. And together you've

32:34

collectively made something

32:36

meaningful happen. And I think that's the single

32:37

most, in general, gratifying.

32:42

When I do the training, it's

32:42

really the, the contact

32:45

with other human beings. It's incredibly exciting when

32:47

you realize someone's gotten it.

32:52

When you see that light

32:52

bulb go off over their head,

32:54

when they put up their hands

32:54

and like, Oh, I get it.

32:57

You know, that is just such

32:57

a rewarding experience when

33:00

you're a teacher and one of

33:00

your students, one of the

33:03

people that you're working with,

33:03

suddenly has that insight, that

33:05

breakthrough, and they got it. That's incredibly satisfying.

33:09

Would you say you love your job? Do you like your job?

33:11

How important is job fit to you?

33:15

I'm going to say this. I'm going to contradict

33:16

everything that, most everything

33:20

you've heard from every

33:20

job seeking guru out there.

33:24

Don't follow your passion. What I mean is you go on to

33:26

LinkedIn, you read people's

33:29

profiles, guaranteed 99% of

33:29

them will have the words,

33:33

I have a passion for....

33:35

Industrial waste management.

33:36

Whatever it is. Right. Exactly. You know?

33:39

And no one cares what

33:39

you have a passion for.

33:42

First of all. It doesn't matter. I'm not gonna hire someone

33:44

because you have a passion. Like industrial

33:46

waste management. If I needed an industrial

33:48

waste manager, I don't care if you're passionate about it.

33:51

All I care about is that you're good at it. That's it.

33:54

And conversely, from the other

33:54

side, the actual practitioner.

33:58

You don't have to be

33:58

passionate about something

34:00

to be good at something. I read a wonderful book years

34:01

ago, it was a non-fiction book

34:05

that was profiling different

34:05

law enforcement officers.

34:08

And there was one officer who

34:08

was an expert in ballistics.

34:12

And he was an interesting

34:12

guy because unlike almost

34:15

every single one of his

34:15

colleagues in ballistics,

34:18

he was not a gun enthusiast. He only had two guns,

34:20

his service revolver,

34:23

or pistol, whatever it

34:23

was, his service firearm.

34:27

And then a firearm that

34:27

had been his grandfather's

34:29

many years before that he kept as an heirloom. That's it.

34:31

He wasn't a collector. He didn't, he didn't love guns.

34:34

However, he was acknowledged

34:34

as one of the best ballistics

34:37

experts in the country. He was excellent at what he did.

34:40

And so it wasn't about, he

34:40

was passionate about guns.

34:43

He was passionate about

34:43

being a conscientious,

34:46

dedicated professional. And so he did fantastic work.

34:50

And the way I feel, too,

34:50

is you'll often hear

34:53

someone say, you know,

34:53

people say, Never run from

34:56

something, run to something. Have an aspiration to run to.

35:00

And I would say, well,

35:00

that's a privilege.

35:03

You know, if you're in a position where you can run to something, that's a wonderful

35:05

thing, mazel tov to you.

35:07

But for many of us, we do

35:07

need to run from something.

35:11

For me, I wanted to

35:11

get out of wage labor.

35:13

I wanted to have,

35:13

to be independent.

35:16

I wanted the greater flexibility

35:16

to be, spend more time with

35:19

my kids during the day, rather

35:19

than being tied to a desk.

35:22

And so, yes, I was running from

35:22

wage labor to something that

35:27

would give me independence. So, I approach marketing,

35:28

marketing copywriter, not

35:31

because I fell in love with

35:31

marketing copy, but because

35:33

I recognized that copywriting

35:33

was a way, a means for me

35:37

to achieve independence. And it, you know, my passion

35:39

is really more for freedom

35:42

than for writing per se.

35:45

I'm interested in what you were mentioning about passion.

35:49

You were an art major, you have

35:49

an MFA in creative writing.

35:52

You, you mentioned that,

35:52

you, you scratched the itch

35:54

and, and got a novel out. Do you sometimes feel like,

35:57

I really want to spend

36:00

you know, some evenings and weekends painting? Or, or writing stories

36:02

or what have you?

36:06

What is your relationship to that now?

36:08

It's a, it's complicated. You know, I do get that

36:09

impulse now and again.

36:12

But I gotta tell you, it's

36:12

really hard to sustain that

36:14

kind of disciplined commitment

36:14

to really succeed in, in

36:17

either of those things. You know, because

36:18

that's what it takes. It takes that kind of

36:19

disciplined, systematic

36:22

dedication to really succeed. So, you know, I vacillate.

36:25

Sometimes I go, it's, I'm fine. I'm happy with the

36:27

way things are. And I have hobbies and

36:29

interests that I pursue

36:31

and that's good enough. And there are other times

36:32

when I go, Gosh, you know,

36:34

I wish I could make a

36:34

greater mark on the world.

36:37

You know, do I have a story to tell? Do I have something

36:38

beautiful to show? And, and, and, and, and the

36:40

answer is eh, not that I

36:43

can think of at the moment. So I would say, I'd say Jesse,

36:45

that the doors aren't closed,

36:50

but, you know, I don't see any

36:50

immediate plans for a creative

36:54

venture in either direction

36:54

necessarily, but, who knows.

36:57

I could be taken by surprise

36:57

tomorrow, find inspiration,

37:00

develop the discipline and,

37:00

and be back on, you know,

37:02

back active in something

37:02

again, it could happen.

37:06

I remember from

37:06

a previous conversation, I

37:09

mean, you mentioned you were

37:09

into architecture and art.

37:11

And I mean, you, you've

37:11

mentioned reading, you know,

37:15

a number of books that were

37:15

more on the practical side.

37:17

It sounds like you're

37:17

still if not creating.

37:21

Oh, absolutely. If you saw like the, the

37:22

magazines I subscribe to and,

37:26

you know, and the things I,

37:26

you know, like for instance,

37:29

one of my favorite magazines,

37:29

it's called Ugly Things.

37:32

And three times a year, they come out. Basically it's not

37:33

even a magazine.

37:35

I'd call it a book. It's like 250 pages, eight

37:36

and a half by 11 or 12.

37:40

And it's dedicated to obscure

37:40

music in the period 65 to 75.

37:45

So a lot of psychedelia,

37:45

garage rock, all that, uh,

37:49

especially the forgotten stuff. You know, the local

37:51

hometown heroes that maybe

37:53

cut one seven inch and

37:53

then disappeared forever.

37:56

This is what Ugly

37:56

Things concentrates on.

37:58

And, and that's part of my hobby, part of the records is, you know,

37:59

exploring obscure music.

38:02

And so, yeah, I love getting,

38:02

you know, reading about that.

38:05

I also subscribe to a

38:05

magazine called Fungi.

38:07

Yes, fungus. You know, so I'm

38:09

interested in mycology. I'm excited that spring is

38:11

beginning because that means

38:14

in a few more months, mushroom

38:14

season is beginning, and

38:16

I can go back outdoors and

38:16

hunt for mushrooms, which

38:18

is a hobby that I love. And that is a passion.

38:22

It's just something I love to do. And I also, you know,

38:24

I have other things. I just, I'm learning more

38:26

about natural history.

38:28

I'm spending more time outdoors. And I still have a love of art.

38:31

Love going to museums. If I come to a conference

38:33

in your city, yeah, I'm probably gonna play hooky,

38:35

skip the talks, and go

38:38

to your local art museum. That's probably what's

38:39

going to happen in reality.

38:42

So yeah, those passions,

38:42

those loves are still there,

38:44

but I don't know that I'm

38:44

necessarily a contributor.

38:48

And just for

38:48

listeners behind Jonathan is

38:51

what I'm guessing is probably

38:51

four to 500 LPs behind you?

38:56

Well, yeah,

38:56

there's at least that.

38:58

And I have a total

38:58

of around 4,500.

39:01

So this is, you know, would

39:01

that time I spent hunting

39:05

for these records, be better

39:05

spent building my business?

39:07

Probably. But those are the choices

39:09

I made, and, you know,

39:11

I'm okay with that.

39:13

So this has been

39:13

great, and I'm just kind of

39:16

wondering as we wrap things

39:16

up, What questions should

39:20

someone in grad school, maybe

39:20

a few years out, or maybe at

39:24

any stage really, be asking

39:24

themselves if they really

39:27

think that their discipline

39:27

isn't going to work out and

39:31

they're considering something

39:31

outside their field of study?

39:35

I would say a couple of questions. One question I would ask myself

39:37

is, What skills or areas of

39:41

knowledge have I acquired

39:41

along the way, and either,

39:44

or both my undergraduate

39:44

and graduate careers, that

39:46

could have applicability and

39:46

meaning and other contexts?

39:50

For instance, in the

39:50

sciences, you may have become

39:52

really adept at research

39:52

or statistical analysis.

39:57

Well, guess what? Those are skills that are

39:58

valued in multiple contexts

40:00

beyond pure science. Right. In my case, it was obviously

40:03

communications, writing.

40:06

So where could I apply that in

40:06

a way that would be, that would

40:10

enable me to have a living? So I think you want to look

40:11

at, kind of do an inventory

40:15

of the things that you are

40:15

able to do and say, Where

40:18

else would that be valuable?

40:22

I think that that would

40:22

be extremely useful.

40:25

And then apply on top

40:25

of that some filters.

40:27

So first filter might be,

40:27

OK of all the things where

40:31

I could apply myself that's

40:31

outside my specific field,

40:34

what would I find satisfying

40:34

or at least interesting?

40:37

And even if you're not passionate about it, would at least find doing...

40:40

like I find doing the work very satisfying. I like succeeding.

40:43

I like being successful as a writer. I enjoy doing good

40:45

work for my clients.

40:47

You want to say, What else could

40:47

you imagine yourself doing that,

40:51

even if it's not your dream,

40:51

still would be satisfying labor.

40:56

I think you would ask about

40:56

too ,obviously, is, Who else

41:00

needs those kinds of skills? Where else are those needed?

41:04

That's really the same question,

41:04

just spinning it 180 degrees.

41:08

But those are the questions I'd start with. And then I'd go, in

41:10

a very practical way,

41:14

What are the realistic

41:14

opportunities available to me?

41:18

So that would depend on

41:18

where you're located.

41:21

Who you know. Networking contacts,

41:23

for example.

41:25

You really do want to think

41:25

where are those opportunities?

41:28

And I'm not talking pie in the sky stuff. I'm talking about real

41:30

ground level stuff that you

41:32

could actually get into. Sometimes those practicalities

41:34

are that there's a job you

41:37

could actually get to, you

41:37

know, that's not an hour and a

41:39

half commute, but something you could say, yes, I could do this. I could have whatever the

41:41

context of my personal life is.

41:43

This is a doable vocation. So those are the

41:46

questions you want to ask. Where else are my skills

41:47

and expertise applicable?

41:51

Who needs those kinds

41:51

of skills and expertise?

41:54

What would I find satisfying? And what practical opportunities

41:56

exist adjacent to me?

42:01

All right. If people want to check out your

42:02

business, where should they go?

42:07

And if they're curious

42:07

about your novel...

42:10

So first off, to learn more about my business, just Google

42:11

my name, Jonathan Krantz.

42:14

K-R-A-N-Z. And you'll end up at

42:16

Krantz Communications.

42:18

I think the website

42:18

is www.kranzcom.com.

42:23

And there's a bunch of,

42:23

there's an outdated blog that

42:25

I haven't updated in I'm

42:25

embarrassed to say how long.

42:28

But there's a lot of good, useful content out there, especially

42:30

if you're a copywriter. There are actually good how

42:31

to articles and some stuff

42:33

that are free to download. You don't have to give

42:34

me your email address. It's totally anonymous.

42:37

It really is absolutely free.

42:40

There's information out there. My novel is a, a young adult

42:42

novel called Our Brothers at the

42:46

Bottom of the Bottom of the Sea.

42:48

Well, thank you, Jonathan. This was a great conversation.

42:51

Thank you, Jesse. It was a great pleasure.

42:53

And I wish you the best

42:53

of luck and the best of

42:55

luck is anyone listening?