0:03

Zane Lowe, Apple Music This

0:06

the Zane Lowe interview series. Zane's out

0:08

this week, but I'm Eddie Francis here to introduce

0:10

this week's episode. A couple weeks

0:12

ago, Black released his third album

0:14

since I have a lover. Now, if you haven't listened to it yet,

0:17

take a moment, enjoy it and go along for

0:19

a long night drive. Zane

0:21

did this great explanation. It was exactly why

0:24

LA is completely different in the daytime

0:26

than it is at night. And I'm not gonna lie, after Zayn

0:28

kinda told me that, I was like, he is right. So

0:30

listening to R&B at night in LA does

0:33

a different kind of vibe. Now, this is a great companion

0:35

piece to that actual album.

0:38

And how Zayn set it up is he traveled

0:40

up to the Topanga Canyon, like this beautiful

0:44

overlooking the ocean and they had a deep

0:46

conversation. Cause if you know anything about black,

0:49

just started off super red hot famous

0:52

and he took some time off and we're in this place nowadays

0:54

We're more aware than ever about mental

0:57

health and people dealing with fame.

0:59

And he kind of dealt with it however he

1:02

felt like dealing with it. And you know what? He

1:04

does a way better job of explaining

1:06

than I ever could. So let's do this. Zayn's

1:09

full conversation with Black right

1:11

now, enjoy.

1:14

It's funny, I think about this place. Obviously

1:17

I know about Topanga. If you live in Los Angeles or

1:19

in California, you know about Topanga. But

1:21

it kind of has this almost unfair reputation,

1:24

I think of a place where people come

1:26

to

1:27

check out. Whereas I actually think

1:29

it's where artists come and creative

1:31

people, or creative people at least come to find

1:33

the space they need to

1:36

create. We were out here maximum, like

1:38

three, maybe like three months ago,

1:40

four months ago, but we shot the album cover out here. So

1:43

it's kind of like jumping right back in that

1:45

same space of like,

1:47

it was this day, but it was colder, rainier,

1:50

muddier, but we

1:52

made it look nice I mean,

1:55

the odds are, living out here, that this

1:58

would be sunny and dry underfoot. but

2:00

I'm really happy it's not. So this feels

2:02

like the right place to have this conversation. Yeah, I'm

2:05

happy to be having it. Yeah, good to see you, man. You

2:07

too. It's been a minute. I was

2:09

talking and thinking about it the other day, but

2:11

you were probably the first

2:13

person that I like officially talked to. I'm

2:16

glad you brought it up because I was nervous too. I didn't

2:18

want to start in the present by going back.

2:20

No, no, I remember. I remember. And

2:23

even though I was like in a

2:25

somewhat like a good space, my energy

2:27

back then was a little bit more just like recluse

2:31

and

2:31

secluded and head still

2:34

like kind of down a little bit, hair over my

2:36

face, turn a little bit to the side,

2:38

no like direct eye contact. It's so funny

2:40

because I watched this back the other day because I wanted to

2:42

be reminded of what it was like when we first met.

2:45

I looked terrible. Like

2:48

I was like carrying a little bit of weight, stress

2:50

weight, I wasn't eating right,

2:52

I was drinking too much, I

2:54

was just coping through stress. and

2:57

I can see it on my face that I'm just hanging in

2:59

there. And yeah, you definitely

3:01

were in a situation where you were feeling

3:04

it out. And I think

3:06

also that we were in that era where mystery

3:08

was a marketing tool for some

3:11

artists. I think it took us all a minute to

3:13

realize that it wasn't marketing for you, it was actually who

3:15

you were at that time. But

3:17

it did kind of work for your music in a weird way. I mean, you can

3:19

trace it to that, right? Absolutely, yeah. It

3:21

helped me

3:23

get out like some of the things that I couldn't get

3:25

out in regular conversations in my life. And

3:28

it was good for that moment and

3:30

it helped me be creative in that moment. But

3:33

what I've learned over the past few years is that

3:35

was just like one version of who I was and maybe

3:37

it got me to a certain point, but I don't have to like

3:40

be in that bag anymore. It's just not who I am. It's not

3:42

who I wanna be. Maybe it's who I was,

3:45

but this feels a lot better. It's

3:47

good that you can make that decision and ultimately

3:49

define your music and define yourself

3:52

and take those necessary

3:54

steps. Because I think as fans, and I'm putting

3:57

myself in this equation, when

3:59

we fall in love.

4:00

with something that somebody's made, we

4:03

kind of want that, that fills that hole for

4:05

us. So just keep doing that to some

4:07

degree. Did you ever feel that? Um, I

4:10

feel it from the outside, of course. But

4:13

I think that ultimately, like, even when people

4:15

say that it's more of a feeling than anything. If you want

4:17

the album, the album is there. But

4:19

the last thing you want is somebody to do the same thing

4:21

over and over again. Because then people will say, oh, he

4:24

never changes. He does the same thing over and over

4:26

again. I know what what kind of music he makes. I know

4:29

what kind of vibe I'm getting from him. And

4:31

some of my favorite artists have

4:34

changed and grown between albums

4:36

and every time that they reintroduce themselves, they reintroduce

4:39

a new part of their life or a new vision that

4:41

they've had or a new emotion that they're

4:43

living in. So I have

4:45

to always stick to the path

4:48

of growing and know that sometimes

4:50

you shed people along the way, but

4:52

as long as I'm on this

4:54

same mission, it's cool. You're

4:56

one of those artists now for me and for a lot of people. Who

4:58

are those artists for you? Who are the ones that paved

5:00

the road? Kaya is a big

5:02

one. And you can hear that sonically

5:05

between each album. You can remember

5:07

where you were. You can remember where

5:09

he was. You can remember the outfits

5:11

that he was wearing during the time. There's no artist

5:14

who's traveled as far and as wide through

5:16

their art as him. It's

5:19

hard for us, I think, when we fall in love with our artists

5:22

to not

5:23

create too close a distinction between the two.

5:25

Yeah. But we have to almost

5:28

treat the music differently, don't we, to some degree? Absolutely,

5:30

but I think one thing that I've learned in

5:32

my personal life,

5:34

which I can now apply to even

5:36

some of my favorite artists, is

5:39

when I'm in the midst of trying

5:42

to figure out things with people in my life, when I'm

5:44

under immense stress, when there are so

5:46

many outside factors and things that other

5:48

people could never relate to or know,

5:51

What's the point? What's the actual point

5:53

or the message within

5:55

the mess that's happening? What is somebody actually

5:58

trying to say to you? If you can find that.

6:00

then reacting isn't

6:03

always necessarily my go-to anymore. I've

6:06

been more reactive than I have been proactive

6:09

for most of my life. And now I'm at the part

6:11

where I'm like, why am I tripping

6:14

so much over how? If I

6:16

can understand what it is, if I

6:18

can understand what the point is. That's real growth, man.

6:20

And it's just grace. Everybody deserves

6:23

a little bit of grace, everybody deserves patience.

6:25

I know

6:26

that's what's been saving me the last few years.

6:29

If I didn't have a partner who had grace for

6:31

me, then there

6:33

probably wouldn't be an album right now. It's

6:35

a great place for us to settle for a minute because,

6:38

I mean,

6:39

I said to you, on

6:42

text, in person, and now on the record, that's

6:45

the triumvirate. This album is... It

6:48

is a remarkable collection

6:50

of thoughts, inner and outer, and the music

6:53

and arrangement. Everything about it is so

6:56

loving. And as my friend Fred

6:58

said to me once, I'll say it to you, this music knows itself.

7:03

So congratulations, man. Thank you, thank you, thank

7:05

you. I can tell you not.

7:06

I can tell you proud of it too. It's cool

7:09

to know yourself and to stand on

7:11

that and to honestly teach other people

7:13

to do the same thing. This

7:15

is me really looking

7:17

myself in the mirror and knowing how I

7:20

wanna be, the influence I wanna

7:22

have on my daughter, the influence I wanna

7:24

have on my future kids, my future family,

7:27

and knowing that with music there

7:29

is a bit of responsibility and whether

7:31

you acknowledge it or not, people are listening

7:34

and they're learning and they're following, so what

7:36

do

7:36

you want to say to them? Social responsibility. Absolutely.

7:40

Unless you're in a good place within yourself, social responsibility

7:42

becomes a weight around your ankles. Yeah. For

7:45

sure.

7:45

You have to truly understand what it is that you're saying,

7:48

your purpose before you can become anything to anyone

7:51

else. Absolutely. That's a

7:53

really intense journey. It needs a

7:55

catalyst to some degree. sometimes it's loss,

7:58

sometimes it's just...

8:00

Some kind of a moveable object that's in front

8:02

of you, mental, spiritual. What was yours?

8:05

Was it your relationship? Was it the fear of losing

8:07

somebody? What was the catalyst that made you want to really

8:09

take a look at your life and do some proper work away

8:11

from being black? Feeling

8:13

like I was putting

8:16

myself in a position to have to make free black,

8:18

too. It was like

8:21

I'm watching myself sabotage

8:23

everything around me. To get there? Yeah, I'm

8:25

watching myself like, lie about

8:28

small things and watching myself put

8:30

off hard conversations because they make me uncomfortable.

8:33

And it's like, I'll talk about it on Wednesday. And

8:35

then Wednesday comes and it's like, oh, I'm having a good day today, so

8:38

I'll get to it on Friday. And then by Monday,

8:40

it pops up in a way that you didn't expect. And

8:42

you're like, oh, now it's not a conversation

8:44

anymore. Now it's an actual issue. Now back to that reactive,

8:47

no pro-activity. Exactly. Exactly. So, I mean,

8:49

it was really just feeling like things were slipping through

8:51

my hands and knowing that the main

8:53

factor was myself. It wasn't anybody doing

8:56

anything to me. It was me doing things to myself.

8:59

And it got to the point where, you

9:01

know, the person

9:03

who I care about the most was just like, you look like you

9:05

got it together to everybody else, but I

9:07

can see you and I don't like

9:09

it. You know, I think about that album titled, the free

9:11

debut album, Free Black. I mean, it's an iconic album

9:13

for a lot of fans. And he

9:15

knows it's, well, I

9:18

know how it makes me feel. It served a

9:20

purpose at a point in my life when I needed it. I

9:22

think I've told you this before, but I used to listen to that album a lot,

9:24

driving through the hills in Los Angeles at night, where

9:27

the street lights aren't light enough, and

9:30

there's a lot of dark space in between. And

9:32

that album seemed to really suit that feeling for

9:34

me.

9:35

Who was that kid that made that record? Looking back on him

9:37

now. 2016, he

9:39

was obviously

9:42

coming out of a bad record

9:44

deal and feeling

9:48

like I had something to prove to myself.

9:50

out of at the very least like two

9:53

or three relationships that didn't even been matched

9:55

with who

9:57

I felt like I was. It was more so...

10:00

psych fill in time filling space and

10:02

settling am allowing

10:04

like

10:05

my depression am i moved to decide

10:09

this overtake like

10:11

my decision making skills and

10:14

then

10:14

that started to like inspire

10:16

the creativity and then that

10:19

became like a crutch as a coping mechanism years

10:21

as i could crutch and honestly feel like

10:23

that's the reason why this new music has like push

10:25

me in a different direction because i

10:27

know that it's cool to like create things

10:30

from that space and you get amazing things from

10:32

it by at some point it almost becomes

10:34

like a fetish and and also in a and it becomes

10:36

like a style and it becomes like we were talking about

10:39

was your identity yes i can identity and i'm

10:41

just like but is is really

10:43

like where you want to be as is really

10:44

how he feels is really like is

10:47

it benefiting you like when you wake up in a more know how do

10:49

you feel do you bill for and i was villain

10:51

more and more drain with every relationship

10:54

more and more drain with like every moment and

10:57

i remember gone on that tour and after that war

10:59

was over i was your site

11:02

as i there's been no progression

11:04

like i feel like i've just lived that album

11:06

on the road yeah and now i'm just

11:08

back looking at my life and it still

11:10

feels like isn't shambles you know it feels pressured to

11:12

me that arms were physically carry the world on your on

11:15

his shoulders his music for people you'd feel

11:17

overwhelmed i think absolutely out it's like i'm

11:19

feeling overwhelmed years okay listen to this way and eyes

11:21

is a bit is hopeful in there you

11:23

know is hope in there but

11:25

it was definitely a coping album for

11:27

sure and i was definitely album were

11:30

ninety percent of the song that i made

11:32

i was in a room by myself

11:34

and it was definitely album were

11:36

oh yeah everything was a monochrome

11:39

and black and white immunity and

11:41

the way that i even perform back there was completely

11:43

different who's looking down at the ground

11:46

i didn't do too much like running around

11:48

i didn't even know my so i

11:50

was a new free black the album but

11:52

i didn't know like who are could be until

11:55

i really to what step one which

11:57

was soon as that torres over cut

11:59

it off co I

12:02

didn't realise you were the eldest of 3K. You

12:04

have younger siblings. Yes. I

12:07

think about

12:09

this image of you when you came out and it was like

12:11

a lot was built around you. Industry

12:14

was built around you. Your

12:15

fans surrounded you. You made all the music

12:18

on your own. There was this sort of sense that

12:20

you were doing this for everybody as much as for yourself. And

12:22

I wonder whether an element of that comes from being the oldest sibling.

12:25

And if there's a kind of innate sense of responsibility, at least

12:27

when you were starting, that you've now been able to get past and

12:29

move in your own space. I know what music

12:32

did for me when I was younger and when I

12:34

went through certain things. So that,

12:37

coupled with, like you said, being the oldest, just

12:40

makes me feel like, and figuring

12:42

out just what my purpose was in general. It was like, I have

12:44

this passion for music, but I also

12:45

have a passion for people. And maybe I'm

12:47

not the most expressive, but there

12:50

is something that I can do with this that helps other people. So

12:53

let me just figure out what my knack is. Let me figure

12:55

out how to tell this story. And yeah,

12:58

taking care of my brother and my sister was like step

13:00

one to figuring out how to help take care of

13:03

my listeners. Yeah. Can you try

13:05

to describe how that felt looking back on that now

13:07

with some perspective? Having an identity

13:09

that

13:11

was ultimately manufactured from within

13:13

inside yourself that became success and then we

13:15

start, we just want that again. I

13:18

mean, it's just a teacher moment more than

13:20

anything. Like, I love

13:22

to remind people that, like, who

13:24

I was yesterday is just not who I am today, and

13:26

it'll never be that way sonically. It'll never

13:29

be that way emotionally. It'll never be

13:31

that way spiritually. Like, I

13:33

have been enjoying this process of growing

13:35

up, and I don't think that

13:37

music has enough moments where, like, people

13:40

just champion growing up and champion maturing

13:42

and champion healthy love and champion, like,

13:45

I'm working on myself and I'm trying to be a better man

13:47

and a better father and a better brother and a better

13:49

son. So since I felt like that

13:51

boy was missing, I just want to continue

13:54

to feel it. And I want to continue to tell people

13:56

like, this is who I am. you

13:58

can catch up or you can.

14:00

so I might be able to listen to it. That's good,

14:02

man. That's a really important point,

14:04

is that in your life, in growth, is to

14:06

be able to say, it's okay, I don't have to hold

14:08

on to everyone and everything all the time. This

14:11

album feels like that. It has that

14:14

same feeling that you've been putting in your

14:16

music, this idea of opening the front door to your

14:18

life. There's voices and

14:20

the introduction.

14:22

Not to be super nerdy, but I have

14:24

to lean in to hear what they're saying. It's almost

14:26

like they're just for you to remind you, But

14:29

we get to experience it only if we're present

14:31

enough to listen. Was that by design? Absolutely.

14:33

These are like all the things

14:36

that happened in

14:38

the past four or five years, pandemic

14:40

wise, personal life wise. And

14:43

it's like moments where my daughter pops out. There's

14:46

moments where you hear like a fan talking,

14:48

just like talking about the hunger for new music and

14:51

in the midst of creating, you know, having

14:53

all these outside forces, you know, kind of

14:56

sometimes clutter, sometimes help, Sometimes

14:59

inspired, sometimes a little bit depressed.

15:01

It's just like these outside factors

15:03

are just going nonstop and I still have

15:05

to figure out a way to be linear and to be clear

15:07

and to speak up. And at the end

15:09

of it all, it clears and we take a deep breath and then we

15:11

get into what today is. Yeah, in

15:14

Woodhill Park. Yeah. New York?

15:16

Yeah, absolutely. Why? First,

15:19

it was named that before, like,

15:21

the beat was named that before anything. And once

15:23

the beat was named

15:23

that, I felt like it was my duty to

15:26

go up to Woodhill Park plug

15:28

in my headphones, take a walk by myself,

15:31

and I sat on a rock

15:32

in the middle of Inwood Hill Park for, I

15:35

kid you not, like, six to eight hours. This

15:37

is crazy, I don't think I've ever spoken to an artist who

15:39

has actually named something after a location

15:41

and gone to the location and had the experience

15:43

and inspired the song subconsciously. It's normally

15:45

other than that. I sat there for hours, I sat there, it was

15:47

sunny outside, and by the time I left Inwood Hill

15:49

Park, it was pitch black outside. And

15:51

just me, by myself, headphones in, music

15:54

playing. I didn't need anything else in

15:56

that moment except to just take in this

15:58

place that I was about to name the song.

16:00

Wow. Yeah, I took my walk. I

16:02

took some pictures. I had a pretty rough day that

16:04

day. And that was like a good moment

16:06

to take a break and just like recenter myself, reground

16:08

myself, not talk to

16:10

anybody, not text anybody. How would you have done that last

16:12

time if you'd had a rough day and you hadn't gone to Inwood

16:15

Hill Park and meditated in that space with music?

16:17

I just would have tucked away in my room somewhere. It would have

16:19

been something simple. I'm happy like

16:22

through music, I've been able to travel and

16:25

as

16:26

simple as it may seem sometimes for us because

16:28

everybody's going to move these days. Like to

16:31

be able to go somewhere and like experience life

16:33

in a completely different way than you're used to experiencing

16:35

it is just 10 out of 10. I don't know,

16:38

two years of pandemic,

16:40

as unkind as it was on everybody, it was a little

16:42

bit kinder on artists because if you want to

16:44

take five years between albums, that's like

16:46

two off the top already. It's called three

16:48

years. Yeah, everybody was up. Because I don't

16:50

think you can expect anyone to make art

16:53

during two years of quarantine. if you did great,

16:55

but it's not something I was like, oh, you got two

16:57

years off, go make it. So he needs a life.

17:00

You need life to make life, right? Absolutely, absolutely.

17:02

So I

17:04

don't want to ask you that outright, where have you been? But

17:07

I'm going to ask you, like, has

17:09

it felt like five years

17:11

to you? What has happened

17:14

to time for you in between records?

17:17

Definitely felt like five years. Some

17:19

days it feels like it's gone by, like, faster

17:21

than I could have ever expected. And then

17:23

when I think back to like certain moments,

17:27

some days it was really in slow motion. And

17:29

I remember being almost like a little

17:31

bit, not excited, but

17:34

like when I heard that we were going on lockdown,

17:36

I was just like, I'm used to like

17:38

being a homebody and I thrive, you know,

17:40

being to myself. So this will be

17:43

something that like I'm familiar with. And

17:45

then I got into it and realized

17:47

it wasn't, you know, what I expected it to

17:49

be. And it really like put a mirror in front of my face.

17:53

Exactly. You know, put a mirror in front of my face and it wants

17:55

me to look at myself and sharing

17:57

space

17:57

with other people and you know.

18:00

learning what it is till i share

18:02

space and loves and mighty and

18:04

for that to really be unconditional and what that like

18:06

requires and how like you

18:09

can't just go outside and go to lunch

18:11

and take a break from mike whatever you need to deal with

18:13

his id and i we gotta deal with the right now because

18:15

we actually don't have a choice but to deal with your

18:17

i know is it too literal think this song i play

18:19

house relates to atlanta houses

18:22

absolutely related said at one hundred percent because

18:24

that was like i'm a theme

18:26

that just i popped up in conversation every now

18:28

and and you got to individuals

18:30

who are good on their own who

18:32

end up like in this moment

18:34

in time where you

18:37

are leaning on each other but you're

18:39

also trying to say the same exact time i am

18:41

not trying to just be somebody boyfriend

18:43

i'm not china just be somebody his girlfriend like

18:45

they are things that i want to do their thing that you want to

18:47

do like how do we honor those names

18:50

and then come back together at the end it a day and i

18:52

have that peace and have that you know that unity fishermen

18:54

you can specially when you kind of to go about

18:56

your the life that you had designed for use

18:59

of that was the big thing i took

19:00

away from a lot of it was like by design

19:02

of what we

19:05

sort of if

19:06

we're lucky we start to imagine it up and

19:09

then we started put it into into into action

19:12

near combination of sort of fortunate

19:15

experience like hard work

19:17

in prison

19:20

obsessing over the future absolutely overwhelming

19:22

yeah you know and then you find yourself situation

19:24

was like odd have created this construct

19:27

it fits me and

19:28

that just evaporated i think

19:31

and that time

19:32

he have klaus was a good step for

19:34

me to lie once

19:37

again i have a conversation that was

19:40

a little bit more difficult for me to have a conversation

19:42

just like one on one it was a moment of

19:44

exercise in a thought something

19:46

that can pop and up my producer sangha

19:49

on introduce the sonics of

19:51

it to me and introduce like something that he was definitely

19:54

isn't as you said the the phrase firehouse

19:56

i was like oh my god that's just that keeps coming

19:58

up and my combo

20:00

and honestly at the time

20:02

I'm like I'm so sick of that phrase but

20:04

let me like flip it and look

20:07

at myself you know as I speak about it and

20:09

not use it as a moment to make like a ex-call

20:12

in or problems or anything that's like pointing

20:14

the finger at somebody it was it was saying how do I

20:16

self-reflect like well because it's growth rate you've moved

20:18

on from those things into a place where you're not quite

20:21

home yeah playing house is the step

20:23

before home you know exactly exactly exactly

20:25

exactly so I'm glad that I handled

20:27

it with maturity and Every song on this album

20:29

was

20:30

a moment of that too. It was just like, how

20:32

do I look at myself and not point the finger at anybody

20:34

else? Because as of right now, I've

20:36

made a,

20:37

maybe like a good portion of my

20:39

career, not being as

20:41

accountable as I could have been. Yeah, there's

20:44

a lot of Nobody's Perfect on this album, which is great.

20:47

The album title, the title track, it obviously means

20:49

a lot to you. Where did it come from? What does it

20:51

mean? You know, there's a reprise basically at

20:53

the end of that song. So it's clear you don't want to let that

20:55

music go. It's like I feel when that song

20:57

finally ends, it's you just going, okay, I've got to move

21:00

on. But I think you'd still be in that piece

21:02

of music right now if we even made an album.

21:04

Since I

21:06

honestly felt like it is the answer to like, where

21:08

have you been or what have you been doing?

21:11

Or what's inspiring you since I have a lover? Normally

21:16

the album titles for the last two and

21:18

including this one have come at the very end of making the

21:20

music. So, Three Black made

21:23

the song free towards like the last

21:25

month of recording. And then I kind of stepped back

21:27

and was like, this is what it is. And

21:30

East Atlanta Love Letter, we were

21:32

already done with the process and East Atlanta Love

21:34

Letter, the song, just popped out and stepped

21:37

back again and was like,

21:38

I think this is what it is. And then Since I Have a Lover

21:41

was another moment where I knew

21:43

the theme, I knew the story that we were telling, we

21:45

already had a bulk of the music, but there

21:47

was something missing and I went maybe

21:49

weeks of just, it was like we were supposed

21:51

to pull the trigger on when it was time to wrap things

21:54

up and release and start to shoot things.

21:56

And I just kept being like, something's missing,

21:58

and I don't know what it is. And

22:00

I just have to be patient and

22:03

say, f*** your deadline and

22:06

sit until that thing

22:08

popped out. And when I heard the music for it, I was like, that's

22:11

the feeling. How has anyone even applied deadline

22:13

when it's been five years? What, is somebody going

22:15

to turn around and go, hey man, it's been five years. You

22:17

need to hand it in by May. It's like, dude, what

22:19

about last May? What's

22:22

the deadline at the end of the day? The only reason

22:24

why is because I started to speak

22:26

on wrapping up. I gave everybody

22:29

the energy of, we're almost

22:31

done. So once you say we're almost done,

22:33

everybody starts to move and get

22:36

things

22:36

in order. And until

22:38

I made the title track, Since I Have a Lover,

22:40

that was the moment where I was like, okay,

22:43

that sounds like an album title, that sounds

22:45

like an answer to a question, that sounds like

22:47

an ode to the person that I'm, it sounds like everything,

22:49

like all wrapped in one. It's a great title. It's

22:52

also a really lovely extension

22:55

from the sentiment

22:57

and the album cover and the artwork and

22:59

the aesthetic of East Atlanta Love Letter, which

23:01

is you on your own with your child

23:04

on your chest making music in the kitchen.

23:06

Yep, and we in the next chapter. I mean, that to

23:08

me is like, that was one of the most striking pieces of art

23:10

I'd seen in a long time because what it said was

23:13

like,

23:13

this is my life. This is the balance

23:15

that I'm in right now. I mean, I

23:17

can't stop this. I'm certainly never letting go of this.

23:20

Absolutely not. And I've got to do whatever

23:22

I've got to do wherever it is.

23:23

Everything changed for me when I became a father. Yeah,

23:26

everything does change. It's still changing

23:28

every day. Yeah, every day. And you're

23:30

absolutely right, it continues. Being a parent

23:33

is one of the great gifts and one of the great challenges,

23:35

and you can't have joy without the challenge. And I think

23:38

what I realized really quickly was that

23:40

I had a lot of work to do, and I had to do it really fast.

23:43

Yeah. Kids will make you

23:45

realize that super quick. Yeah, and

23:47

I had to reflect on where I'd come from to

23:51

find out where I was, to

23:53

be able to go where I needed to go. How

23:55

did it make you reflect on your childhood and your

23:57

relationship with your parents and become.

24:00

becoming

24:00

a parent, how did you

24:02

change the way you relate to that experience?

24:05

It really made me think about how I grew

24:07

up. And

24:09

I love my mom, I love my dad. The

24:11

relationship is absolutely there. But

24:13

there were certain things that I had

24:15

to get to the source of as far as issues

24:17

in my present life. In

24:20

order to really clear things up in my present

24:22

life, I had to go back and just go in chronological order

24:25

and say, there was a moment where I stopped caring so

24:27

much. And there was a moment where I started

24:29

handling things on my own. There was a moment where

24:31

I stopped sharing my grades. I stopped

24:34

trying to impress. I stopped trying to

24:38

latch on to my mom or my dad. And

24:41

those moments were the moments where this personality

24:43

started to shape. And then this personality

24:46

started to basically tell the narrative

24:48

for the rest of my life up until after

24:50

Free Black. And

24:53

I just didn't want to repeat any things with

24:55

my kid. She reminded me that

24:58

I am expressive and that I am funny and

25:00

that I am, you know, filterless and that

25:02

I am everything that

25:04

a kid is too. It's just like, I can, I'm that with

25:06

her. So when I see that version of myself pop out,

25:09

it's like, this is what was lost.

25:11

This is what was suppressed. And

25:13

I need to like be exercising that every day. I

25:15

need to be stimulating that every day. It's a muscle,

25:17

it's a muscle. Absolutely. For sure.

25:20

I forgot how to work it for a minute. And you know, my,

25:22

my daughter really helped spark,

25:25

you know, what I needed to just remember for

25:27

a second. And once I started remembering, it was

25:29

just like, I gotta practice, that's it. I

25:31

just need to practice. I need to go out in nature.

25:33

I need to go to the beach. I need to go on

25:35

a hike. I need to go camping. I need to feel

25:37

something. Yeah, I need to like continue to feel

25:39

and stimulate because I don't

25:42

wanna like continue to put these labels on

25:44

me for like who I am or who I thought I was.

25:46

Like I remember thinking I don't do this

25:49

and I just never done that. And oh, I

25:51

just don't talk that much. And I'm just like,

25:54

why did

25:55

I go through

25:56

so long in my life thinking that this is just

25:58

who I was? Yeah. and

26:00

not realizing that that was just a coping

26:02

mechanism to get to where I am. There's

26:04

a song called Chasing Feeling that I think really speaks to that. Absolutely.

26:07

It's this idea of how come I don't,

26:10

you're emotional right now in this moment, how

26:12

come I'm not emotional in this moment? Mm-hmm,

26:14

mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I asked, oh my God, that

26:16

question is like...

26:18

What's wrong with me? It's kind of haunted

26:20

me for a while. The what's wrong with me

26:23

thing has popped up so many times because

26:25

I would be in moments

26:27

where I would just think about the fact that a

26:29

normal person would feel something

26:32

in this moment. A normal person would feel this embrace

26:34

from this person who I love and like

26:37

be able to equally match it. But I'm

26:39

like, I find myself like digging and

26:41

like trying to like either bring it out or

26:43

just sit in there questioning myself like, why isn't

26:46

it hitting the same? Or why, you know, why,

26:48

why am I not able to match? And that

26:50

what's wrong with me was tearing me up for

26:52

a second. Cause it's like, how

26:54

do I,

26:55

like, how do I pinpoint what that is? And how do I fix

26:57

that? because it doesn't have to be this

26:59

way. And I know that I've like convinced

27:02

myself that it is this way and it just

27:04

might be this way for the rest of my life, but it

27:07

has an effect on like the people around me. What's

27:09

hard to have relationships with people when people don't

27:11

feel that you're able to exist in that moment

27:13

with the same degree of connectivity.

27:16

That's why I say like getting to the source was that

27:18

was the problem solver. That was a game changer for

27:20

me because it was almost like I'm promoting

27:22

this like

27:23

story of growth and the story of like positivity

27:26

and the story of triumph and hope. But

27:28

I had to really spin around and think

27:30

like, you're not doing the work that you

27:32

do. It's like you're false claiming right now. False claiming.

27:34

Yeah, you're not doing all the work that you perpetrate,

27:37

that you're doing. And it's cool that

27:39

you inspire other people. It's hot. Yeah, it's like it's cool

27:41

that you're trying to inspire other people to do it. But unless

27:43

you do it in your own life, it's going

27:46

to come and get you. It's going to take you. It's going to

27:48

yank you up. And I felt like it

27:50

started to really just

27:53

throw me

27:53

off and make me

27:56

look like a bad- but

28:00

a worse version of myself than not really in.

28:02

The fall of the album is really fascinating to me because

28:05

it's like pretty emotionally intelligent track

28:07

listing, you know? You ease us in with this, like, where

28:09

have you been?

28:10

In Woodhill Park, like, yeah,

28:13

man, I'm here. I've got this tempo. It's

28:16

emotional, but there's urgency. And

28:18

then we roll pretty quickly through, you know,

28:21

to the point where I think it takes, it

28:23

gets into the real

28:25

heart and soul of the journey,

28:27

which is from about spirited away. Oh,

28:30

and it starts to feel like, okay, now I've got you

28:32

where I need you. Yeah. This is really where

28:34

we're at. Okay.

28:36

Spirited Away is one of my favorite pieces of music on the

28:38

album. Nice. And

28:41

I just wanted to leave it open and just

28:43

ask you what your thoughts are on that as the artist

28:45

who made it, whether you can

28:47

detach yourself enough to appreciate it the way we do. That

28:50

one took the longest for me to finish and it

28:52

feels easy to listen to. That night

28:54

I was watching Spirited Away.

28:57

I had a little bit of shrooms to heighten the... The

29:00

emotional experience

29:02

and connection to it. Even you want to spirit it away.

29:05

Yeah, but that's what it was. It was like an unlocking

29:07

moment for me. It was me starting to get into

29:10

motion and getting a rhythm and be

29:12

more expressive

29:13

and

29:14

just honor the fact that I'm

29:16

in my home right now. And

29:18

this isn't something that I should be taking

29:20

for granted. This is a safe space. I

29:23

work for it. Nobody's coming in the room

29:25

to interrupt me. I have the food I need. I have

29:27

the water I need. I have the snacks I need. Let

29:29

me go a bit deeper inside. I got the studio I need.

29:32

I can make whatever face I want while I'm recording.

29:34

I can get as ugly with it as I need to get

29:36

to like to really get it out. And

29:39

that was really a moment of me, you know, looking

29:41

at my life and saying like it's really

29:44

time to unlock and go to another level

29:46

spiritually. There's a couple of moments on the album where I feel

29:48

like you're looking back through the window of the room that you

29:50

used to be in observing of the way that you

29:53

that people behave in those rooms. Yeah. Other

29:55

artists industry, all that stuff that we get swept

29:57

up. and now especially through social media and stuff.

30:00

Preach is one of them. Yeah. Talkback's one

30:02

of them. Yeah. You know, this

30:05

album is not without judgment.

30:06

You know, I think there's definitely moments when you're calling

30:09

Spade a Spade. Absolutely. I

30:12

mean, just because I feel like there's more of everything

30:14

else than there is of things that feed us. I'm

30:17

a fan of everything. I enjoy all

30:19

kinds of music, all kinds of topics. I come

30:22

from Atlanta. I come from Baltimore. I've seen.

30:24

I've felt. I understand. I

30:27

sympathize. But

30:29

I think that we have reached a point

30:31

where money, I

30:33

mean, money's always been like the driving force. So

30:37

for me to be like the adult in the situation

30:39

now is like now I actually have a mouth to speak on it.

30:41

And maybe when I was a kid, I'm just like observing

30:43

or I'm not like fully aware, but I'm growing

30:45

now and I see my peers and I want everybody

30:48

to be a little bit more responsible because

30:50

we've lost way too many

30:52

people in the last five to 10 years,

30:55

like prematurely too.

30:57

Not even just... No tragedy. Yeah,

30:59

like prematurely we've lost more people than

31:01

we can count

31:01

on two hands as far as household names.

31:04

So,

31:05

you know, it's not like

31:07

I can see that and feel that and

31:09

not speak on it and not say like,

31:12

what are we doing? Like, what are we teaching? What

31:14

are we trying to do? What do you think it is? Have you been

31:16

in a situation where you, you know, your

31:18

ego and your ed was driving you to

31:20

some degree forward into this

31:22

music space. There's a competitiveness, a desire

31:24

to achieve that gets you there, that's the ego. Drive,

31:27

drive, drive. So to have the presence

31:29

of mind to be able to write a song like Preach, what

31:32

is it that you see from the outside looking in now?

31:34

It's more so just a question of like, when

31:36

you get there, what do you do with it? That's really

31:38

it. It's like, we all have some kind

31:40

of journey of making it through something to get

31:42

to like point B. And now

31:45

the next question is from point B, where do you go? Like

31:47

what do you say next? How do you like flip

31:50

that for somebody else? Or do you continue to cycle?

31:52

And if you look at what you

31:54

produce, and that's

31:57

just like an ingredient to continuing the cycle

31:59

then. It's not really something

32:01

to be that proud of. Telling

32:03

a story is one thing, but glamorizing

32:07

or glorifying or keeping

32:10

our people just stuck, I

32:14

could just never be that person. I could never

32:16

have friends that are those types of people

32:18

without being like, hey, I need you to wake up

32:21

a little bit. So is that going to affect the collaborations

32:23

you do and the songs you choose to get on, and the environments

32:26

you find yourself in creatively? Absolutely. But

32:28

not in a judgmental way. I

32:31

have friends that haven't

32:33

necessarily graduated to the part where

32:36

I am right now, but that's

32:38

why I'm around them, so that I can continue to speak

32:40

to them. And so I can continue to be like, I

32:42

know what's going on over here, but this is what's

32:44

happening over here. I'm going to this retreat next

32:46

week. You should try it. I'm talking to this

32:48

therapist. I know you said you

32:51

got some stuff that probably nobody would ever understand

32:53

or know, but you should try it. And I've

32:55

had those moments with plenty of artists, Obviously,

32:57

you don't want to give nobody's business away. But

33:00

I've had moments with people who I've

33:03

literally been like, the line is there. Whenever you need

33:05

the line, bro, whenever it gets too much,

33:08

it'll be right here, I promise.

33:10

So getting back to the role of relationships in this album

33:12

and the fact that there wasn't so

33:14

much blame either

33:17

on yourself or on someone else as kind

33:19

of inexperienced as like,

33:21

it's my fault or it's your fault, tit

33:24

for tat. This idea of, it's

33:26

okay, this is the cycle, this is how

33:28

it goes.

33:30

Just being really straight up and asking, because I'm fascinated

33:33

by the way the art relates to life, how

33:35

making this album has positively affected

33:38

your ability to maintain a healthy relationship?

33:41

It feels good to not have to hide

33:43

songs from somebody, you know,

33:46

to not be embarrassed or

33:48

guilty or shy

33:51

anymore about what I'm doing. To be

33:54

proud, to have a song like, since I have a lover,

33:56

and to be able to say, I know when you hear

33:58

this, you know you're You

34:00

don't know exactly what I was thinking about. You remember

34:02

the moment, you remember the day, you remember the feeling.

34:05

And it's

34:05

been such a positive reinforcement to

34:08

have somebody that really holds me accountable

34:10

because for so long I was

34:13

the leader for a lot of my friends. I

34:15

never had a mentor. I never had

34:18

an OG. I never had

34:20

somebody who

34:21

was there to give me tips and give

34:23

me help. And to have somebody who just

34:26

came into my life and knew more than me in

34:28

certain areas, Oh, this

34:30

is different, and it's going to take some

34:32

adjusting, because I didn't know that I had an ego,

34:34

but here it is. Any

34:36

time that it's something as simple as like, hey,

34:39

did you know that if you were to

34:41

put this in your water, then it would help you with

34:43

this? And you want to be like, yeah, I knew

34:45

that. But because

34:50

to everybody else, I know everything. That's what we do.

34:52

But for somebody to come with more knowledge and

34:56

different knowledge and different experiences. To be able to say,

34:58

she don't know that. Yeah. It's been

35:00

helped. So to have somebody who helps me

35:02

be accountable for my body

35:04

and making sure that I have a routine, I

35:06

got a text before I came here basically

35:08

saying, your bedtime is 830 tonight. You

35:11

should go to bed at 830 in order to feel

35:13

good tomorrow. And I'm like, that's actually

35:15

crazy. You said it because my phone just told me that my

35:17

bedtime is 830 tonight. So she knows,

35:20

even without knowing sometimes, and that just

35:23

makes for a healthier soundscape when I get into

35:25

the studio. I move with

35:28

the weight is off and I'm able to

35:30

create with different sounds that I wasn't able to explore

35:33

before. I've always loved acoustic

35:35

driven things, but

35:37

I just never explored it that much because

35:39

that's just not the vibe that we were in in 2016. That's beautiful.

35:42

I mean, the sound design, if we can just take a beat there for a second, is

35:44

incredible on this record. The production, the feeling, it

35:46

all just nurtures your words and performance so

35:48

tastefully. I don't know

35:50

if this is a reference for you, but I hear elements of

35:52

Jeff Buckley in there, the way the guitar just rings

35:55

in this beautiful, almost clean,

35:57

strat. It just flows through the reverb. in

35:59

the kit.

36:00

This time will be I get to bring guitar to

36:02

stage which I've never done before I'll

36:04

be playing guitar on stage for this next

36:06

tour. I played like a couple of licks

36:09

on the album Which ones? Someone's

36:11

inside. Mm-hmm. And

36:14

I had a great teacher Taylor

36:17

Taylor Gamble She

36:19

came throughout the perfect time to this uncomfortable

36:22

time period where I'm just having

36:24

to like really fight the resistance

36:26

and and

36:26

learning guitar was almost like getting in a new relationship.

36:29

You know nothing. I sucked

36:32

in front of somebody. I was trashed. You cannot.

36:34

That's the thing. I was trashed. There's no fluff.

36:38

Your fingers hurt. I mean, you don't know

36:40

what you're doing. And by the way, there's nothing more like

36:42

humbling than picking up an instrument for the first

36:44

time and bringing success

36:48

to the table and realizing that you're not successful

36:50

at this. It was a perfect,

36:53

perfect, perfect humbling moment in the midst of everything

36:55

that was going on because it was just

36:56

like, damn, I just keep getting humbled and I just

36:59

have to eat this and I have to make sure I have

37:01

practice next week. Even if I feel

37:03

like I haven't gotten like better or

37:05

if I feel like I haven't learned exactly what she wanted

37:07

me to learn, it's just like, I have to stick to it. Just

37:09

to pick up an instrument and just,

37:12

I mean, you could just be here on your own with an instrument

37:15

and inspiration strikes you when you're great. Absolutely.

37:17

I think that was like another

37:19

thing that almost, Not like

37:22

slowed this process, but

37:24

made it a little bit more of a task for me, is

37:26

just knowing that I'm also reaching a phase

37:28

where

37:29

I have to get more

37:31

into like, being able to create things on

37:33

my own, like completely on my own, even if it's just

37:36

a guitar loop and getting out of song. You

37:38

know, I've always had ideas and always been able

37:40

to feed ideas to people, but

37:42

I have to be a producer. And also

37:44

help other people too. Exactly. Help other people

37:46

find their voice as well. I think about like Don Toliver

37:49

who's one of the only guest appearances on the record.

37:51

My favourite. He's incredible and

37:53

to me, I think this gets back

37:55

to the idea of being able to

37:59

present your learnings

38:02

in a way without it being preachy. Don

38:04

Toliver is kind of you now,

38:07

where you were a few years back. He's probably

38:09

the most-guested artist on

38:11

the planet. Like, he's got everybody's records,

38:15

right? He's great. Making great music, finding

38:17

his identity, finding his voice. Do you see a little

38:19

bit of his journey in yourself, and

38:22

is that part of what do you think connects you to him, as recognizing,

38:25

like for like? Absolutely. And I

38:28

think more than anything, like,

38:30

it's just really inspiring for me. Like, it's

38:32

really inspiring for me to listen to somebody

38:34

else's music and just go like, the

38:36

acoustics of this is just amazing.

38:39

Like, it's every song, every

38:41

melody, every

38:43

part of the production, like, it

38:45

just fits and it sits perfectly. And

38:48

I have things that I would have changed about, you

38:50

know, certain albums looking back or certain moments

38:52

looking back. But when I listen to Life

38:56

Over Dawn and when I listen to Love Sick, I'm just

38:58

like, it's a really great place to be

39:00

at the, basically at the beginning of

39:03

a career. I'm like, that's, it's so tight.

39:05

So, so, so good. So yeah, it's

39:08

been super inspiring. Dawn got me through the pandemic

39:10

for sure. There were a couple albums that got me through

39:12

Wizkid, the Made

39:14

in Lagos. Yeah, the album. Amazing record. So

39:17

those

39:18

are the things that really like

39:20

made me look at myself and say, oh, you gotta learn a little bit

39:22

more. I hear a little bit of that. It

39:24

made it be where you were going with it, but it's not like Decatur.

39:27

Decatur, yeah. Yeah, and you're flowing in different rhythms

39:29

and finding different feel. Yeah,

39:32

I wanted a little bit of, can we talk a little bit about Decatur?

39:34

Because that song came out of nowhere for me. Movement,

39:36

man. Like I said, that Wiz get album

39:38

really inspired.

39:41

It made me move during a time where nobody

39:43

wanted to move, where we actually weren't even able to go

39:45

outside. I remember that feeling of listening

39:48

to that album all the way through and just being like, I

39:50

could play that again all the way through not

39:53

skip a single song. So

39:55

Decatur for me,

39:56

Sonically was a breath of fresh air. Olu

39:59

from Earth.

40:00

they produced it and

40:02

that was just want to catch up combo you aren't even like

40:04

technically schedule to make anything

40:06

or are taught music it was just get out now investors

40:08

your friend is the i there is like i've been working

40:11

on my productions the players me some stuff

40:13

and and i hear to cater and on my eye

40:15

and

40:15

then storyline was or

40:17

just like pennywise decatur for me

40:20

kind of speaks to like

40:23

i said that moment of like doing things

40:25

that i'm just not used to doing i get an outside

40:27

of my comfort zone and

40:29

in my personal life i haven't been

40:31

able to go to the tea party will margot and feel

40:33

like i'm i'm not uncomfortable or not

40:35

i unaware of ah nobody see a me and be in my own

40:38

uniting was very a true partner yeah

40:40

but by the caterers i is high

40:42

tea for me is is a moment where i get to

40:44

to be in touch with like another side of myself

40:47

and when i think that music video

40:49

even though we haven't shot yet i think of all the

40:51

people that you wouldn't imagine in a t setting

40:53

yeah but just if i gucci and

40:56

walk a flock the and like all the ellen alleges

40:58

this i in

40:59

a spot where side are a i

41:01

got dressed up to go to a let

41:03

people know that's that's really

41:05

cool that's life nuts life

41:07

thing lived experience my experience

41:09

and things and not being like turned off from something

41:12

just because it's not what you did in doing

41:14

your pass i i've been able to enjoy so

41:16

many different things recently all

41:18

based off of like learning were my partner and be

41:20

a light actually i think i am interested

41:22

in going to see a valet i am interested in going

41:24

to see a broadway show i am interested in i

41:26

guess i haven't a d party with you and your sisters in

41:28

your family like these are things that help me tap

41:31

into like another side of myself that i just

41:33

never got to express what else do you want to do

41:35

in life i want to get them together

41:37

for sure i want to know how to like actually put

41:39

stuff in said earth and grow serves as like

41:42

a class go than anything else

41:44

but i think overall is just continue until i

41:46

figure out ways to do things around me we

41:48

did a water will and uganda

41:51

a few years ago and the

41:53

idea of knowing

41:55

that three

41:56

thousand dollars in the us is a

41:58

shopping spree for some

42:00

but $3,000 somewhere

42:02

else might be water for a whole entire community.

42:04

It's infrastructure. Yeah, like infrastructure for a whole community.

42:07

So it's like finding more projects like

42:09

that so that I can

42:11

just feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing while I'm

42:13

here. So like if I have access to resources, if I have

42:15

access to money, then let's find somewhere

42:17

productive to put it. And

42:19

as of right now, that's like my main

42:22

goal. So what is money to you? Is it about sharing?

42:24

I mean, do you like to spend money on your family, on your

42:26

parents, on the people in your life? Do you like to

42:28

be generous? Yeah, for sure. But

42:31

with that, you know, it starts to bleed a little bit.

42:33

It starts to spill over the edges. So I always

42:35

have to remind people that in

42:37

addition to helping you,

42:40

I have to help myself and I have to help

42:42

my kid. And your kid is the big one. And

42:44

I got to live for about,

42:46

at the very least, like 50, 60 more years. So

42:49

it's a long time to be responsible for

42:52

yourself. Like, it's a pretty... And

42:54

this is the thing that a lot of people don't realize about music as

42:56

well, which is the Andre 3000 summed it up so

42:58

brilliantly in elevators when he talks about living

43:00

beat to beat and check to check. If you don't

43:02

move your feet, then I don't eat so we like neck to neck. That

43:05

idea of like,

43:07

people think because you're doing what you love that

43:09

you've made it financially, but the

43:11

music keeps the lights on. Absolutely.

43:14

And like I said, it's just a very,

43:17

we're all going to be here for hopefully,

43:20

God willing for a very long time. And

43:23

that is a lot of time to be responsible for yourself.

43:26

That is a lot of time to like figure out, you

43:28

know, who you will be in the next phase

43:30

of life because who I am right now is not, you know,

43:32

who I'll be in 20 years. Like I won't still be

43:35

black on tour. I'll be

43:37

black somewhere, maybe hopefully on a farm

43:39

somewhere, hopefully on some land. But you know who

43:41

you'll be looking at? You'll be looking at your daughter and your other

43:44

children who'll be 15, 20, 25 years old, who

43:46

will reflect you back to you and the decisions

43:48

you make in life now ultimately set them on their path.

43:51

I'd imagine your daughter at her age now, how old is she now?

43:53

Sex?

43:53

Yep. She's into

43:56

stuff. She loves stuff. And you can't

43:58

be like, don't. I had

44:00

all the stuff. You can't have all the stuff. I'm doing you a favor.

44:03

You can be like, don't talk. Like, you got the stuff. She

44:05

gets the stuff, but she gets a really

44:07

good talking about the stuff too. She gets balanced

44:10

too. I got videos of her doing like this in

44:12

moments where she's mad. That's beautiful. That's beautiful, because even

44:14

if she's pretending, right? I'm like,

44:16

just breathe. That's

44:18

right. And they pretend. Yeah. So

44:21

I know that

44:22

even though she might not fully understand, like what

44:24

she's doing in that moment, the breathing and

44:26

the patience and the grace

44:28

and the moment of just speaking to her as an equal

44:31

is what she needs. And I didn't always

44:33

get that growing up. It was more so like,

44:36

you can do what I say,

44:38

it's my house, I pay the bills. Otherwise.

44:41

As a defensiveness again, right? Yeah, so it's

44:43

like, let me not have

44:45

this overbearing control over

44:48

her emotions and what she feels. Let me give her space

44:50

to grow, space to feel, space to cry,

44:52

space to laugh, space to do whatever, make mistakes.

44:55

And ultimately she'll have

44:57

a way healthier, better outlook

45:00

on like who I am to her. That's just my baby. I

45:02

just wanted to always like know that I love

45:04

you, I got you. If there's ever anything

45:06

cool, if you want to talk about it, great. If you don't,

45:09

I'm cool too, but I'm here. You

45:12

know what Spirited Away introduces? You absolutely

45:17

meet us again around talk, around

45:20

from talk on, it starts to get again, we get into

45:22

this place where it's like, you know, I have to talk to someone on the

45:24

outside to find out what I was really saying on the inside.

45:27

I wanna talk a little bit about

45:29

talk because to me it's

45:31

almost like a, it's

45:34

a tribute to therapy. It's a tribute to the idea of being

45:36

able to talk to someone you didn't grow up

45:38

with, who doesn't know you. And that's kind of the point.

45:40

Yep.

45:41

Yep, yep. Sarita is at the, that's

45:44

my therapist. She's at the end of that song too.

45:47

On a day where I

45:49

hadn't had sessions with her in a while because I

45:51

had, not because, like when you're doing

45:53

so well So it's not that you just don't have to talk

45:55

to your therapist anymore, but I was in a a place where I was

45:57

just like working on stuff on my own.

46:00

And I was getting ready to speak to her. And

46:02

right before I got ready to speak to her, something just

46:04

ended up happening. I ended

46:06

up having a moment. And I called her and

46:08

I'm just like, man, I

46:11

did it again. And

46:14

it was cool to speak to her in that

46:16

moment so that she could remind me

46:18

of something that sometimes I just need to be reminded of.

46:20

Which is, if there is something

46:23

that doesn't make you feel good and

46:25

it's rooted in something that you can really stand

46:27

on and explain, then talk about it and stand on

46:29

it.

46:30

and be okay with that. Some things you

46:32

let slide, but if it's not worth letting slide,

46:34

then speak on it and be cool

46:36

speaking on it. And that was a moment where I was

46:38

like, did I do or say the wrong thing? And

46:40

she just reassured me, that's

46:43

just something that you have to be willing

46:45

to communicate, you can't settle, you

46:47

won't be able to let that one slide. And

46:50

setting those boundaries was just really,

46:52

really important for me to get back into my day

46:54

and to get back into feeling good and to

46:56

just continue this motion of working

46:59

on myself and

47:00

working on my communication skills because before

47:02

I met her, my communication skills were shot.

47:05

They were terrible. Really, really bad.

47:08

We weren't encouraged as

47:09

certainly my generation, there was no one looking at us going,

47:12

hey, talk through the thoughts. It was

47:14

just like, what are your thoughts? Tell me your

47:16

thoughts. It wasn't like what's motivating them, what's behind

47:19

them. Often what we're

47:21

thinking and what we say isn't necessarily how

47:23

we feel anyway. It's like you

47:26

beautifully established before. It's an

47:28

invention. It's kind of like

47:30

a placeholder. Yeah.

47:33

It's a perception, and it

47:35

takes a lot to really, like, just get that

47:37

off of you and to feel like

47:39

I can be a 2.0 version of myself. I

47:42

can, like, offer something different, not

47:45

only for myself, but for the people around

47:47

me, to be able to just be proud

47:49

and be happy and be filterless and just

47:52

be fluid in a different way. And

47:55

I'm really, really grateful that, one,

47:57

I've been able to create a space where the people

47:59

are around

48:00

me are the best people around me.

48:02

And now all we have to do is work on

48:04

creating a setting where like the setting is always the

48:06

perfect setting.

48:08

Stories in motion.

48:10

I apologize to anybody watching this who

48:12

by now knows who's on that song because I

48:14

didn't have it in my track listings, which is kind of

48:17

cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I liked that. So

48:19

who is it? Wale. It's

48:21

Wale. Yes, I love like Easter eggs. I love moments

48:23

where there's plenty of them on a project. Yeah,

48:25

who else? India Sean did some vocals

48:28

on Spirited Away. Amazing. but did

48:30

a couple of harmonies on Night Ride Home, the

48:32

last track. Our songwriter, Bay, helped

48:35

with Tip 4 Tag. Cadence

48:37

helped with Spirit of the Way as well.

48:40

Obviously, Wale, Tidalah

48:42

did some vocals on Night

48:44

Ride Home. But

48:45

it's nice because as someone who's known for

48:47

being a guest on other people's records, a collaborator,

48:51

it's cool that you make it more

48:54

of a personal experience for yourself.

48:56

For me, it's personal. And I

48:59

know that Wale has always had

49:01

a way with his words. And I know that

49:03

during times where I was still figuring out myself

49:06

and figuring out my music, his music spoke, his

49:08

words spoke to me. I hate using this word

49:10

because I think it's actually almost borderline disrespectful.

49:12

But if underrated could be a word.

49:15

He is underrated. Flowers, man. Flowers

49:17

for him all day long

49:19

because everything that we

49:21

see right now as far as hip hop goes has

49:24

graduated from a specific era. And as

49:26

of right now, the current day, that era is

49:29

Drake, that era is Kendrick, that

49:31

era

49:31

is Wale, that era is Cole. Like these

49:33

are some of the building blocks of what we

49:35

have right now. So

49:37

Flowers for him, it was an honor to be able

49:39

to reach out to him and just say, I need

49:41

you for something. And the song

49:43

was pretty much already done.

49:46

And I could tell just in our exchanges that

49:49

he took it serious. Even though it was a moment, those

49:51

next couple of days, he's like, all right, so you want me to

49:53

like come at it this way, you

49:56

know, should I do this, should I do that?

49:58

and I gave them free. He

50:01

painted a picture in a matter of, I

50:04

don't know, like 30 seconds. Because he'd

50:06

done the work, he'd figured it out. And everything

50:08

that he said is like spot on. As

50:11

far as that song goes, he wrapped it up in such a perfect

50:13

way. Yeah, he did. And what I really like is it's

50:15

succinct. Right? What

50:17

is it, like eight bars max? 16 max? It's

50:20

like eight. But he made it feel like a 16. Yeah,

50:22

yeah. It's beautiful. You

50:24

know, in recent years, you've been the go-to collaborator

50:27

in so many songs and have experienced

50:29

success by proxy as well as on your own terms. It's like,

50:31

and

50:31

you get all these additional songs that

50:33

you can choose on, choose not to put in your life set. It

50:35

just creates this much broader universe for

50:38

you to work in. But even you

50:40

must admit that there was a year there where it was just like,

50:42

there was a lot of black on a lot of other people's music. Absolutely.

50:45

And you know, you've chosen carefully in the last few years. I know

50:48

the little TJ record was a huge success for you.

50:51

How are you going about that part of your life now knowing

50:53

that it is a card you can play at any time? You're

50:56

in that room, people want to work with you I work with you all the time. But

50:59

you don't have to. Yeah. I mean, it's relationships.

51:02

Like if I meet people and it

51:04

feels right, and I feel like there's something

51:07

like worth pursuing as far as like music and creativity

51:09

goes, then

51:10

cool. Do you remember when I said that when

51:12

I first started listening to your music,

51:14

it would be at night? Mm-hmm. I

51:17

loved hearing Night Ride Home for the first time. Ah,

51:19

yeah, Night Ride Home. In RH, because it's like

51:22

a different ride, a different time in the day.

51:24

Absolutely.

51:25

different perspective, the world looks different.

51:28

But it just felt to me like you're

51:30

coming home different.

51:31

I am. Night Right Home is like

51:34

one, I had to have a disclaimer for that

51:36

song when I was

51:38

presenting it to my partner. I'm like, I know what you're

51:40

about to hear. I'm like, if you listen to it,

51:42

it might sound like this. But trust

51:44

me, Night Right

51:46

Home was a moment of me stepping outside

51:48

of my situation and thinking about something

51:50

that I know tons of people think about, which

51:53

is what will my life be if I

51:55

did something different? If I was with

51:57

somebody different, what would it be? and is having those

51:59

thoughts. like

52:00

past me and then at the end

52:02

of it all being like, actually I'm good where

52:04

I am. I love where I am.

52:06

I'm enjoying my life, I'm enjoying my day, I'm enjoying

52:08

love the way that it is. To have that conversation

52:11

is normally like one that you shy away from. To

52:14

be able to have that conversation on wax

52:17

and to be able to share that with my partners is a moment

52:19

where I just feel like more accomplished because

52:21

those are types of songs that would have

52:23

been written differently in the past. Yeah,

52:25

in the shadows, right? Lots of metaphors and hiding

52:28

things. And it would have been a little bit more

52:30

like shame attached to it. And now

52:34

I'm just becoming like a better communicator. And

52:37

Night Right Home is me just feeling

52:39

good, like giving myself a pat on the back and being

52:41

like, you're doing pretty good, bro. And every

52:44

conversation that pops up, every feeling that pops

52:46

up that you feel the urge to say something

52:48

about, say it. Say

52:51

it. Keep saying, I got a tattoo on me that just says, talk

52:53

about it. Because I have to remind myself as

52:55

much as I can to talk about it.

52:57

Look who we are, man. I

53:00

can't believe the last time I was this close proximity-wise

53:02

to a really active waterfall.

53:04

Yeah, I didn't even know LA had it.

53:07

Los Angeles. Right. I

53:10

was like, there's enough water for that. How

53:12

much of this,

53:14

by this I mean just kind of being out in

53:17

something that isn't music

53:20

or industry or cities or whatever, like

53:22

what kind of influence did isolating yourself

53:25

play in getting to this place creatively.

53:28

I mean, it really just opened up the Sonics

53:30

of what we were doing. Like, it made me realize

53:34

that there was a different, like, field

53:36

to life. And, like, my

53:38

good day changed from what

53:41

it used to be like, maybe back

53:43

then it was just like having a day at the crib

53:45

playing video

53:45

games. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not having

53:47

too many outside influences, but my good day today

53:50

is a day at the beach, or a day,

53:52

like, on a walk, or a day somewhere out in nature.

53:54

and it's just sounded different

53:56

than what it used to sound like. It's

53:58

so inspiring. being able to have this conversation.

54:01

By inspiring, I think for other kids who right

54:04

now are burning the candle of creativity, when

54:06

you're young and you

54:08

think like, I've got this, something I want

54:10

to say, the

54:12

work ethic is going to get me through. I'm

54:14

just going to hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. There's

54:17

a period in life you have to do that. But I think what

54:19

you're saying is like, there is a way to find

54:21

balance through that. Yep.

54:23

And it's like now if I need to have a moment

54:26

where we get into a mode and it's

54:28

like, are we working tonight? We're gonna be up. It's

54:30

a good session. So-and-so coming out. Let's

54:33

work. Like, I know how to do it. I know

54:35

how to thrive in that setting. I know how to have

54:37

a good session, a good studio night. Yeah,

54:40

but yeah, that was the lifestyle back then.

54:42

I was in the studio from 3 p.m. to 3 a.m. every

54:45

single day. And Overtime was literally

54:48

leaving the studio when it's sunny outside.

54:50

It's the never-ending childhood dream, you know,

54:53

of like, if I can sit in this place and create,

54:55

why would I ever leave? Yeah, I live

54:57

in the studio. I lived

55:00

in the studio, Interscope studio, no excuses.

55:02

It's not there anymore like the original

55:04

one, but that was like

55:07

the place where Kendrick was making damn.

55:09

And like, I remember just knowing

55:11

that in every room, schoolboy Q,

55:13

SZA,

55:14

there's something great going on in every room. So

55:16

I'm here, I'm gonna live here, I'm gonna stay here.

55:19

If somebody walks in the room, they gonna walk in on something

55:21

great. Cause I know that something's great. Something's great is

55:23

going on down the hallway. So

55:24

I remember being in that studio

55:27

and following that as much as

55:29

I could and to the point where, like

55:31

I say, you just reach that threshold where your body just

55:33

burns out and it's like, all right. But then we

55:36

walk out of those rooms and you go like, oh, that's a badge

55:38

of honor. Yeah, I did that. I did it to like, come

55:40

over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's not healthy. I'm literally

55:42

bragging about it almost, bragging about it.

55:44

But there was a day where I sat there

55:46

and I kid you not, like

55:49

I was so done

55:51

just like I finished the album. I was

55:53

still trying to like crank out music, burnt out completely,

55:55

and that was the day where I just sat. And

55:57

that day everybody kept kind of like popping in, checking

55:59

on me

56:00

because it was just dead silent, no music. And they're just

56:02

like, yo, you're good. And then

56:04

that, you're good, turned into, I'll talk

56:06

to them later, they were like, yo, were you in the room at

56:08

this point in the night? Because we popped in and we didn't see

56:10

you. And I was like, bro, I sat in the same spot all

56:13

night long. But I was so

56:16

locked in that

56:18

I didn't have a thought, I didn't have a feeling, I didn't have a word,

56:20

I didn't want to hear a sound. And

56:22

that just made me really step back and

56:24

think, all right, you gotta be a little, you gotta have more balance.

56:26

That's it, you just gotta have a little bit more balance because

56:29

you just can't continue

56:32

to put yourself in a position to not

56:34

have anything left to give. Just save

56:36

it. I started to realize

56:39

my voice doesn't have to necessarily be

56:41

a traditional thing or be a familiar thing for

56:43

it to thrive. I'm around people

56:45

who are doing things that are brand new

56:48

and all I have to do is just find out what

56:50

my version of that is. And being

56:53

two doors down from

56:54

greatness like Kendrick and

56:56

greatness like SZA greatness like Schoolboy,

56:59

whoever was popping in and out of the studio just

57:01

really made me sit with my own work and think, all

57:04

right, how can I match that energy?

57:06

How can I do my

57:08

own thing?

57:09

How can I do my own thing? That's

57:11

such an important question. It's hard though sometimes

57:14

to avoid comparison, even just self-comparison,

57:17

be inspired so much by your peers that you end

57:19

up wondering whether I'm keeping pace, am I doing

57:21

anything of value. Did you have I used to have those feelings,

57:24

like self-doubt, what role did it play

57:26

if at all in your life? I

57:29

think more than anything, it was just like

57:32

me trying not to like get

57:34

too ahead of myself and just being honest

57:36

with myself. Like just because I make it doesn't mean it's

57:38

the best thing in the world. Just cause I wrote

57:40

it don't mean it's the coldest thing in the world. It's like really

57:43

listening back and not being biased to

57:45

what you create and holding yourself to

57:47

like a standard. Like is this song the

57:49

best version of like this feeling that you're trying to convey?

57:52

And if it's not,

57:52

then make another one and see if you can compare them. And

57:55

if that one's better, then there you are. You're

57:57

getting somewhere. So that being said, Eastland, love that. that

58:00

it might be one of the most important albums you ever make

58:02

in your life, because without that album, there is none

58:04

of this. Yeah, absolutely. Free Black was

58:07

being in that place of turmoil

58:09

and being in that place of self-doubt and

58:11

being in that place of being a little bit muted. And

58:15

then East Atlanta Love Letter was me opening my heart

58:17

and my mind into different ideas and being like,

58:19

okay, actually, I'm starting to get the hang of this. Yeah,

58:21

it's cool that some of the earliest relationships

58:24

you had in this business remain working

58:26

with Earth Gang. I mean,

58:28

you think about those kids that came up and you

58:30

were searching for community, right? I mean, Spillage is just

58:33

really an exercise and friends figuring out

58:35

that we're better together than we are

58:37

on our own terms. Yeah, and the industry in general,

58:39

too, is just making music with your friends

58:41

is way more fun than anything

58:43

else. Create that community, drive

58:45

in that community, and

58:47

everything else is easy. Like, if we have to

58:49

do a camp,

58:50

you know, we don't have to worry about who's in a camp

58:52

if it's just all us. Like, if it's Maria down the

58:54

hall, Earth gang down the hall, I'm down the hall, down

58:57

the hall, all the pressure's off,

58:59

all the extra's off, and we can just

59:01

rely on each other, lean on each other, remember what

59:03

we used to do. Does it still feel like that? I mean, even though

59:05

you've all grown up now in your kids'

59:07

family success industry, every

59:09

camp's got its own camp, do you still

59:12

feel like the essence of

59:14

that camaraderie still exists? Yeah, absolutely.

59:16

I still talk to everybody regularly, like,

59:19

Jisar, Olu,

59:21

anytime I've been

59:23

away from Mariba for too long, I text her

59:25

like, hey, we got to link, we got to sit down, we

59:28

got to talk, we got to catch up. And same for Jit.

59:32

These are people that

59:33

coming into this, we knew that we were

59:35

going to be a family. And even to today,

59:37

it's just like that family thing is really important

59:40

to us, even if we spend time away from each other and somebody's

59:42

on tour. It's like when it's time to link and when

59:44

it's time to talk, it'll always be the same. I feel

59:46

like you and Jit are almost the same person, but

59:48

you just decided to emphasize the different

59:50

sides of your personality. It's like Jit

59:53

is the one who grabbed the mic decided to leave

59:55

it torched and smoking on the ground. Absolutely.

59:58

He could definitely hold melody and lean.

1:00:00

into that song structure, whereas

1:00:02

you were more than capable of going down that road as well,

1:00:04

but you chose to lean into the song

1:00:06

structure, but you can also still torch

1:00:08

a mic when you choose to. So it's like the balance is perfect

1:00:11

between the two of you. Absolutely. I think one

1:00:13

day soon,

1:00:15

I'll probably lean a little bit more to the

1:00:17

right side and exercise that.

1:00:20

I think it calls for it, especially that's

1:00:22

how I started. So I want

1:00:24

to make sure that I spend some time

1:00:27

figuring out what that sounds like if I need to

1:00:29

go sit with no idea if I need to go sit

1:00:31

with Hit Boy, if I need to go sit with somebody who

1:00:34

can help that boy start to eat magic.

1:00:36

Also, when you grab a microphone, I think

1:00:38

being a big fan

1:00:41

of rap and hip-hop and the idea of

1:00:44

exercising language in

1:00:46

a way that is sharp

1:00:49

and funny and aggressive

1:00:51

and truthful and competitive, and all the things

1:00:53

that come with it, heartbreaking, there's

1:00:56

so much wrapped up in it,

1:00:57

that often if you're gonna grab a mic and

1:00:59

you're gonna exercise that muscle, it

1:01:02

comes from the ego, right? Yeah. And

1:01:04

yet you're trying to find a way to work with your

1:01:07

ego, not work for your ego. So

1:01:09

what does that sound like? When you decide to grab a mic

1:01:11

this time, it's like, do

1:01:13

you just unlock the ego as an exercise

1:01:16

and let it run free?

1:01:16

I think in a sense that it is, unlocking it

1:01:19

and letting it run free because regardless of what

1:01:21

comes out, it'll always be more tame than

1:01:23

it was. I don't know. It'll

1:01:26

be more tame than 2016, me for sure. Balance

1:01:28

is okay, life is both. Life is everything.

1:01:31

It's good, it's bad, it's bravado, it's

1:01:34

peace

1:01:34

and tranquility, it's moments of ego,

1:01:36

it's moments of accountability. Yeah, where were you before

1:01:38

you were here today? Exactly, so I'm down

1:01:41

to continue to just honor

1:01:44

and remember that life is balance. Zane

1:01:46

Lowe, Apple Music.