0:04

It's not my job to take care of their

0:06

feelings. It's actually respectful

0:09

and benevolent for me to allow an

0:11

adult human being to process their own

0:13

emotion. Welcome

0:16

to Therapist Uncensored. Building

0:18

on decades of professional experience, this

0:21

podcast tackles neurobiology, modern attachment and

0:23

more in an honest way that's

0:25

helpful in healing humans. Your

0:27

session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelley

0:29

and Sue Marriott. We

0:39

talk a lot about getting a

0:41

really good night's sleep and anything

0:43

you can do to help with

0:45

that is going to promote your

0:47

mental health, your physical health, your

0:49

relationships, everything. So thinking

0:51

about what you sleep on is

0:54

important. I love my cozy earth.

0:57

I love my sheets. So I've had the bedding, we've had the bedding for

0:59

a while now, I guess, I think over a year. I

1:01

can really tell the difference. They're very

1:04

temperature regulating. I sleep hot. I don't

1:06

feel so hot with these and

1:08

they just get softer and softer over the

1:11

period of time of owning them. So

1:14

give it a try. They are

1:16

made from naturally sourced premium viscose

1:18

from highly sustainable bamboo. So

1:21

like I mentioned, it's naturally temperature

1:23

regulating, breathable, soft. You can

1:25

try them for a hundred days, sleep

1:28

on them every night, wash them. If you don't

1:30

love them, return them for a hundred percent refund.

1:33

And what I love about cozy earth, they

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don't just have sheets. They also have ultra

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soft lounge wear, pants, tees, pajamas, even

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joggers, pullovers, hoodies. They

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all of that is made of really comfortable,

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2:09

Give it a try. Howdy, this

2:11

is Jack Anderson, Sue and Ann's

2:13

audio editor. It's pretty

2:15

exciting around here now that their book

2:18

is available for pre-order at securerelatingbook.com. And

2:20

if you haven't heard about the upcoming

2:22

conference, you'll be interested to know that

2:24

you can now reserve your seat and

2:27

learn from Ann and Sue directly in

2:29

person. Modern Attachment, Bridging

2:31

the Science to Real Life is

2:33

an advanced clinical conference that will

2:35

refresh your ideas about what attachment

2:37

really means, teach you how to

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use important findings from relational neuroscience,

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and will also address systems,

2:44

culture, and context that impacts

2:46

national security. Find out more

2:48

at tu.com.com. We recommend signing

2:51

up early to make sure

2:53

you get a seat. That

2:55

said, in preparation for an

2:57

upcoming second interview with Julianne

2:59

Schor, we're re-releasing this popular and

3:01

practical episode, How Good Boundaries Actually Bring

3:03

Us Closer to Get You All Caught

3:06

Up. Enjoy. We are

3:08

super excited to have Jules here in

3:10

the studio with us. Her name is

3:12

Julianne Taylor Schor, and

3:15

she has been in private practice for

3:17

10 years. She

3:19

founded IPNB Psychotherapy of Austin.

3:21

That is a postgraduate training

3:24

center for therapists, and

3:26

it's an affordable counseling program in

3:28

the community. And

3:31

she is heavily influenced by IPNB, which

3:33

is Interpersonal Neurobiology,

3:35

Neuroscience in General, Philosophy,

3:38

Biology, and Physics. So

3:41

let's just jump right in. I

3:44

love talking about boundaries because

3:46

I'm really interested in interpersonal

3:48

neurobiology. And I

3:50

think good boundaries actually bring us closer

3:52

to the people we care about. A lot

3:55

of people get afraid when they hear the

3:58

word boundary because they'll think, Well,

4:00

somebody has a stick up their rear or something like

4:02

that. Right. Or, oh,

4:04

well, if I'm really separate from my

4:06

partner, if I have this really good

4:09

psychological boundary, that's actually going to make

4:11

me feel further away. But

4:13

it won't. Or it sounds rejecting.

4:15

If I have a really good boundary,

4:17

am I going to actually reject my

4:19

husband, my wife, my kid, my best

4:22

friend? Or reject them or just hurt

4:24

their feelings. Or hurt their feelings. Disaffoint them.

4:26

All of that would be a rupture in some

4:28

way that would tear us apart. But

4:32

the message for every client I've ever worked

4:34

with about boundaries is actually that it brings

4:36

us closer together. And so that's

4:38

why I love talking about it because

4:40

I'm such a relational...relationships are the healing

4:42

agent and I want to bring us closer

4:44

to relationships. So you're saying then

4:46

that's... That we are the way. Or one of them. So

4:49

setting boundaries is

4:51

a way to be closer with someone. That's what I'm

4:53

saying. Okay. So what do you

4:56

think, Ann? I'm

4:58

totally interested. You know, I think

5:00

what you're saying also is why do

5:02

you think our initial reaction to the word

5:04

boundary feels almost slightly negative?

5:07

It's a little prickly. It does. It's

5:09

like a prickly feeling. Yeah. It is.

5:12

I think that's because we get taught that they're punishing and

5:15

they're not. Do you guys

5:17

know Cheryl Strayed? She wrote

5:19

Wild. She wrote... Oh yeah,

5:21

yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes. She

5:24

wrote a book with the quotes in it, the little

5:26

green covered one. I can't remember the name of it now.

5:28

I have this quote from her. Can I read it? Please.

5:32

Is that cool? Okay. Eft

5:34

up people will try to tell you otherwise but boundaries

5:36

have nothing to do with whether you love someone or

5:38

not. They are not

5:41

judgments, punishments or betrayals. They

5:43

are purely peaceable things. The

5:46

basic principles you identify for yourself that

5:48

define the behaviors you will tolerate from

5:50

others as well as the responses

5:52

you will have to those behaviors. Boundaries

5:55

teach people how to treat you and they

5:57

teach you how to respect yourself. They

6:00

do. Have. A bricklayer can no

6:02

longer prickly. Right?

6:05

And when she's talking about that, she's really

6:07

talking about one of what I'd classify three.

6:10

Types of boundaries to see something

6:12

about more the external or behavioral

6:14

boundary. So. Let's say my husband

6:16

wanted me to do something different with parenting

6:18

Are Kit which happens all the time has

6:20

been fabulous and he's really good at communicating

6:23

and so we have lots of really in

6:25

depth discussions about how to parents are child

6:27

and so we sometimes have different. Ideas.

6:29

So let's say he sells. A

6:31

little undermined by interactions. We had

6:34

sort of the three of us

6:36

together and he was asking. For

6:38

something? Well, I. Might so

6:40

a boundary where I say I

6:42

absolutely want to support. You. And.

6:45

Have you feel really supported by me as. A

6:47

parent and I gotta say

6:49

Love. That. Saying that you did

6:51

I actually can't be for. Billie supportive of

6:53

exactly don't like that. Would.

6:56

It be okay if

6:58

when that happens I.

7:00

Support you in a different way. And.

7:02

What's great is when we exert

7:04

that kind of boundary. Where

7:07

it's a little nuance. It can

7:09

get us into a discussion with our partners.

7:12

We're now. we're creating the kind of experience

7:14

who wants to as he can come back

7:16

to see as a good psychological boundary. Yea,

7:19

hub he said he has a C O.

7:21

You know, I see what you're saying about

7:23

this. What if we had this kind of.

7:25

Interaction with her Yes, I can be

7:28

completely supportive of that's now we're in

7:30

a difference space where we are saying

7:32

oh, let's parents are daughter in. This

7:34

way and if I hadn't stood

7:37

up and said actually to be

7:39

wholeheartedly behind that feels like it

7:41

uncompromising myself that of them feel

7:43

good. To me. But let me tell you what

7:46

would feel good to me. Let.

7:48

Me tell you how I can be

7:50

support as doesn't make sense. Oh yeah

7:52

completely one at a. Things I like

7:54

about that is it's requiring both understand

7:56

of yourself. and the other person you're right for

7:59

you to be a to come back and

8:01

go, you're not judging him and telling him

8:03

he's wrong. You're coming back and talking

8:05

like that doesn't work for me. I want to

8:07

support you, doesn't work for me. So

8:10

there's room. I kind of think we talk about having an

8:12

error between the two of you. Yes, yes. Air

8:14

between the two of you is so perfect. And

8:16

I think you have to be able to do the two other

8:19

kinds of boundaries in order to do the

8:21

external or behavioral boundary well. Yeah,

8:23

because actually what I was thinking was that all

8:25

sounds great. How? How do

8:27

you do that? But you know,

8:29

when you're upset with him for

8:32

doing something kind of wacky with

8:34

your child. Like maybe he races

8:36

really fast in a way or

8:38

actually this discussion was around he

8:40

had executed a boundary with her without giving her

8:42

a warning but she's four. So

8:45

for me, a four-year-old is probably

8:47

not developmentally capable of remembering. So

8:49

I want to give them a

8:51

warning every time. So let's say

8:53

she wasn't answering her father. She

8:56

asked her a question and we're

8:58

trying to teach her to be responsive. That's

9:00

part of being a good relational person.

9:03

We want her to answer him. And

9:07

I might want to give a warning

9:09

before, oh, hon, you know, if you can't

9:11

answer Daddy, I'm going to have to turn the TV

9:13

off rather than saying, that's it,

9:15

TV's a f***. So

9:18

the first one feels better to me than the second one.

9:20

Well, now we can talk about that. But

9:22

I think where you're going is, yeah, Jules,

9:24

sounds good. You're not supposed to do that

9:26

in the moment. Exactly. That assumes

9:28

you're in ventral vagal, right? Inventral vagal. And

9:30

the other two boundaries are what get me

9:32

there. Okay, good. Right. So

9:35

you have your psychological boundary which is that difference between

9:37

you and me. It's the area you guys were talking about,

9:39

right? The other one

9:41

is a containing boundary. And that

9:44

one's my boundary that says this behavior

9:46

is okay. This is where healthy shame

9:48

came in. I was listening to you guys'

9:50

interview with Steve Finn the other day and I

9:52

was loving what he was talking about, about guilt

9:54

being healthy shame. Right? So the

9:56

contain – I know when I violated my containing boundary

9:58

because I feel guilty. is healthy. There's

10:01

a problem and you don't have enough

10:03

shame from that perspective. I want to

10:05

have a containing boundary because not everything

10:07

my little inner four-year-old wants to do

10:09

is appropriate as an adult human being.

10:13

Sometimes she wants to slam doors and throw a hand

10:15

from Dora Gope. Right? Totally.

10:19

Totally. Well, even just you

10:21

saying that not everything that my four-year-old wants

10:23

to do is appropriate, like that's a containing

10:25

boundary. Containing boundary. Yeah, that's a containing boundary.

10:29

There was a part of me, my four-year-old that wanted to put my fingers

10:31

in my ears and go, that's not true. No, no, no,

10:33

no, I'm not hearing you. Yes,

10:36

exactly. And then you have your

10:38

psychological boundary which is that space where your

10:40

truth and my truth are allowed to

10:42

be different. And because of

10:44

that, that allows me to be more connected to you. Can

10:47

you say more about that? Yeah. Here's a

10:49

metaphor that was co-created with me and a client some

10:52

years ago and now I've shared it with

10:54

so many clients and I've shared it with my

10:56

interns who trained with me and they're coming back

10:58

reporting, my clients are coming back reporting,

11:00

wow, this image really works. Oh, I

11:03

love this. And so I'm

11:05

going to share it. There's absolutely

11:07

no research behind this other than

11:09

the fact that we know actually

11:11

from a right brain perspective that

11:14

when you really tap into an

11:16

image, a full meaning

11:18

system can be accessed

11:20

instantaneously. So that's why imagery

11:23

work works so well for a lot of people.

11:25

So this is just another piece of imagery work so we'll

11:27

lean into that science for this one. Perfect.

11:30

Yeah. So imagine a Jello wall. It's

11:33

a wall made of Jello, mine is pink and sparkly,

11:35

make yours whatever color you want and it's as

11:37

thick as my arm. It's really

11:40

huge. And the job of

11:42

the Jello wall is to stop and slow down

11:44

all of the input coming at me and I

11:46

get because it's slow, I get to ask two

11:48

questions. One is, is this true

11:51

or not true? And

11:53

the other is, is this about me or not about

11:55

me? And

11:58

when I slow down. and

12:00

let me ask myself those questions.

12:03

A lot of times what's happening

12:05

is when let's say my partner

12:07

or my daughter, my

12:09

kid is four years old, she says

12:11

things like, mommy I hate you and

12:13

I want a new family. You know she's angry.

12:18

That's when you need like four Jell-O-Walls. That's when I need

12:20

four Jell-O-Walls and I have my Jell-O-Walls

12:22

and I can say true or not

12:24

true. Does she really want a new

12:26

family? No, she doesn't really want a new family.

12:28

Which is already compromised. She's mad. She's

12:31

mad. She doesn't know how to say,

12:33

mommy I'm mad at you about this

12:35

thing you said. She doesn't

12:37

like the TV being turned off for example, right?

12:41

So there's that piece around true or not

12:43

true and about me not about me. When

12:45

she says I hate you and I want

12:47

a new family, is that actually about me

12:49

or is that about her expressing an internal

12:51

state in herself? And the

12:54

thing is, if it's not true and it's not

12:56

about me, I kick it back out and

12:58

it never touches my heart. And because it never

13:00

touches my heart, I don't have to

13:02

defend against it. Does that make

13:04

sense? Absolutely. That's right. Yeah. And it

13:07

allows my husband

13:09

or my best friend or my client to

13:11

have a very different view of the world

13:14

without it hurting me. And because it doesn't hurt me,

13:16

I can lean in. I totally

13:18

get it that if you have a good

13:21

solid strong boundary that's out there enough that

13:23

actually keeps you safe, then you can keep

13:25

your heart open inside that boundary. But when

13:27

things are coming through, I always think of

13:30

a garden fence, you know what I mean?

13:32

And I can invite people in or out

13:34

or ask them to leave

13:36

or that there's some sort of modulation. But

13:39

within that, then all these little new sprouts, you

13:41

can have the vulnerability because the only person that's

13:43

in there is somebody that's going to take care

13:46

of. Right. You know, it's going to be safe.

13:49

But without the boundary, then, you

13:51

know, that's when you have the prickly pear

13:53

cactuses and stuff going on because now

13:55

I have to protect myself. And I don't have that protection

13:58

out there. Is that kind of a general idea? is

14:00

the general idea. And that leads me

14:02

to this thought about what

14:04

happens if you, the gardener on the inside,

14:06

is not safe for you. This

14:09

is the part where I got super excited about having

14:12

you on. Yes, because I

14:14

think actually of this, so let me

14:16

talk about it from a left-brained way for

14:18

a second so that everybody listening can wrap

14:20

their heads around this from a scientific perspective

14:23

before I move into more of an experiential

14:26

explanation. Before we do that, do

14:28

you want to or shall I say just one

14:30

or two sentences about what she means when she

14:32

says left brain? Oh, go ahead. Left

14:35

brain is the linear, logical,

14:37

linguistic, typically literal. Yes. And

14:40

one of the things to think about with the left

14:42

brain is that it's past and future focused, so it's

14:44

actually not centered in the hearing now. Not in the

14:46

moment. It's worried about what happened to me before and

14:48

what's about to happen to me next. It's

14:51

very predicting. It's super predicting. And

14:54

anticipatory. Yeah. So, left brain

14:56

loves logic because left

14:58

brain loves words that start with the letter L.

15:00

It's the Excel spreadsheet. So,

15:04

the logical version is we're kind of built

15:06

like a computer or rather we built a

15:08

computer kind of like us, which is

15:10

a parallel processing system. And that's how I

15:12

can breathe and my heart can beat and I

15:15

can still have this conversation with you guys.

15:18

So, I have lots and lots

15:20

of neural networks, constantly active,

15:22

and sometimes they're in communication

15:24

with each other and sometimes

15:26

they're not. That's the

15:28

left brain explanation. The right brain

15:30

explanation and by right brain we mean? That's

15:34

the jazz music. It's wordless. It's

15:37

our autobiographical self. Yeah, abstract. You

15:39

can do both and. The emotional.

15:42

It's hearing now. And the hearing

15:44

now. So, that

15:46

brain is where the self is located. Exactly.

15:49

The sense of the self is absolutely right dominant.

15:52

And so, when we're in that

15:54

more right brain mode, the right brain

15:56

doesn't like this whole logical version of it.

15:59

And it kind of. experiences the world in

16:01

more of a metaphorical way and so it

16:03

doesn't think of us having neural networks, it thinks

16:05

of us as having inner people or

16:09

inner characters. Some

16:11

of my clients and this is true for me

16:13

as well, not all my parts are people.

16:16

Some of my parts are like octopi and

16:18

things but it's

16:20

usually got a lot of imagery in it.

16:22

It's usually got a sense of its own

16:24

voice, a sense of its

16:26

own character. I think about

16:29

using the containing boundary and

16:31

the psychological boundary, that jello wall

16:34

between myself, my true self

16:37

and my inner parts as well. Sometimes

16:41

I'll hear a voice that says, Jules, you're

16:44

stupid. Why on earth is anybody

16:46

inviting you on a podcast? I

16:49

listen to that in voice and I think, true

16:51

or not true? About

16:53

me, not about me. The

16:55

truth is, no, that's not true. It's

17:00

about protecting some

17:02

little vulnerable part that's

17:05

afraid of sounding dumb

17:08

or being embarrassed and all

17:10

the different moments of embarrassment I've ever

17:12

had in my life and afraid of

17:14

reigniting those. It's not really

17:16

about who I am now. It's

17:19

about protecting a little being

17:21

who I was and at

17:23

some point had some moment of embarrassment or

17:26

had some moment of looking stupid and was

17:28

left alone and so there was a little

17:30

moment of trauma. I

17:33

define trauma as overwhelm plus

17:35

alone. Put them together and you

17:37

get trauma. There's

17:40

these little moments of trauma.

17:43

Some are big, some are teeny tiny. All

17:47

those internal voices that are trying to shame

17:49

me are really about protecting those, which

17:52

isn't me. It's not the fullness of

17:54

who I am now. It's just something I experienced

17:56

at some point. I

17:59

like when you're you're saying that about the Jell-O-Wall

18:01

helping you because I think when we start off

18:03

talking about the idea of boundaries being threatening

18:06

and it feels like as you're talking

18:09

about this what you're doing is it feels

18:11

boundaries being protective. It's this

18:13

idea it's not about the boundary being

18:15

about keeping someone else out because they're

18:17

dangerous. That's kind of what a boundary

18:19

sounds like. I have to keep you

18:21

out because you're dangerous. And

18:23

what I hear you saying in that

18:26

is that Jell-O-Wall and those two questions

18:28

give you that space a

18:30

little bit to reflect and

18:32

be in your own system. So

18:35

it's a boundary to be able to connect to

18:37

yourself. Right. Exactly.

18:40

And it allows me to really

18:42

lean in because I feel like

18:44

I have protection. Right. My heart is

18:46

protected if you're upset with

18:48

me. Let's say I did something.

18:51

Let's say I really did something that was really

18:53

hurtful and you were trying to express that to

18:55

me. Well that boundary allows

18:57

me to really lean

18:59

in because my heart is

19:01

protected enough that my relationship

19:03

with you is now really important. Right.

19:06

And my protectors don't want a relationship with you.

19:08

I'm very sorry to say. My

19:10

protectors want to keep little parts of me safe.

19:13

Right. The more vulnerable parts. It's

19:15

my whole brain. It's my integrated brain. It's my

19:17

adult self that wants a relationship with you. And

19:19

it's my little ones who are in exile back

19:22

there who want a relationship with you. My

19:24

protectors are so afraid that my

19:26

Jello wall isn't there that they think they

19:28

have to act. But if they

19:30

see the Jello wall, so here's another trick.

19:32

I can have a Jello wall between

19:35

me and my partner and then I

19:37

might have an interaction with my

19:39

partner that's just slightly more successful

19:42

than the last time we had

19:44

a fight. Let's just imagine

19:46

for a moment because you're not going to get it right away.

19:48

It takes practice. It takes like three

19:51

months of really concentrating on this

19:53

image for it to take hold in a way

19:55

where you can see the world like Neo and

19:58

the bullets are coming towards you. out

20:00

of the air. But

20:02

let's imagine for just a moment that

20:04

you... That's an awesome image actually. I'm

20:06

thinking about him going backwards and going

20:08

over his head and... Exactly! Wonder

20:11

Woman actually. We should have both Wonder Woman. She

20:13

could do it. She could do it with her

20:15

arms. Yeah, but also just

20:17

like... Get out of the

20:19

way and let it roll right by. Exactly.

20:21

For those of you that can't see Sue,

20:23

she's sort of leaning back and you can

20:26

see the bullet. The bullet. The bullet go

20:28

by. The slow motion going by my head.

20:31

So in order to be able to do that, that takes

20:33

a little bit of practice. But let's imagine for

20:35

a moment I had an interaction with a friend

20:37

or a colleague or a partner

20:39

or my kid and

20:41

instead of doing my normal thing,

20:44

which was to shut down and

20:46

withdraw immediately, that's my go-to, or

20:48

if I was more of a fighter,

20:51

to raise my voice or lose it right away.

20:54

Instead of doing that, my Jello

20:56

Wall was intact enough that I had three

20:58

more seconds of a pause than normal and

21:00

I was able to lean in and ask

21:02

one more question than I normally could. And

21:04

then maybe after that, it went all to

21:06

hell. Still, it

21:08

was better and I can actually, after

21:11

that moment, ask my protectors to look

21:13

at what I'm practicing. I

21:15

can ask them to pay attention this moment.

21:18

I actually was not in that much

21:20

pain and this Jello Wall thing really

21:22

helped. And they'll start backing off more

21:24

and more. So I can have

21:26

them look at this practice and I

21:28

can also have my Jello Wall exist

21:31

between my selfhood, my full

21:33

adult integrated brain, and

21:36

my voices that learned from

21:39

lots of experiences, how to protect

21:42

me in ways that are maybe the

21:44

cost benefit analysis doesn't weigh out. Well, and I

21:46

love the way you're talking about it too because

21:49

it's so non-shaming. A lot of times what we'll

21:51

do is we'll beat ourselves up or we'll be really

21:53

hard on ourselves. And then we get a

21:55

little bit of therapy and then we get mad at that part

21:57

that's beating ourselves up. Totally. Right? All

22:00

my clients, don't beat yourself up and then don't beat yourself

22:02

up for beating yourself up. Exactly.

22:05

Don't judge the judger. Right, exactly. In

22:07

fact, I have great gratitude. I have so much gratitude

22:09

for our shaming parts because they really are trying to

22:11

help us. And so I

22:13

think there is something about shifting our

22:16

perspective towards them, oh, these are

22:18

like my teenager parts that learned how to

22:20

get scrappy. They can

22:22

get scrappy with me, like they can get scrappy

22:24

with everybody else. I think

22:26

that's great. I'm also just hearing kind of

22:28

some of your examples because as you said,

22:30

like the visual is really helpful. And

22:33

so you're being so generous in sort of sharing some

22:35

of your own process. But I'm hearing

22:37

age differences. That's one way that you're differentiating

22:39

them. And then you mentioned

22:41

animals. And that's a very

22:43

familiar concept to me when I do ideal

22:45

parent protocols. Like when people

22:48

can't find that ideal parent, it's much

22:50

easier to access it through sort of

22:52

the animal kingdom and things like that.

22:54

So it's octopi. It's interesting. It's interesting.

22:56

We want to hold them and we want to

22:59

teach those internal parts how to have a containing

23:01

boundary. So our younger,

23:03

more hurt parts are more likely

23:05

to flood. And our protector parts

23:07

are more likely to shut you down or shut me

23:09

down. Right? So

23:12

our protectors are all about stopping this

23:14

process. At any cost. At any cost.

23:17

I can actually have a client turn

23:19

inwards. And let's say they're getting flooded.

23:22

And we've done enough work at this

23:24

point that we understand, oh, that's coming

23:26

from this moment where there was

23:28

abuse in your past. We've done

23:30

enough work. We have identified that. Okay. Can

23:33

you just come up with a picture of yourself from

23:35

that moment? Even if you can't remember it,

23:37

a photograph. Like a visual

23:40

image. A visual image. And

23:42

then to turn inside and see if you

23:44

can place that visual image of yourself somewhere

23:46

in your body and then

23:48

place a hand on that part of your body

23:50

and just say, I see you. Honey,

23:53

honey, hold on. Just breathe

23:56

for a second. And I'm going

23:58

to offer her my little inner. child,

24:01

the skills just like I would offer

24:03

my four-year-old girl. I'm

24:06

just gonna touch her you know with

24:08

kids. Me explaining why

24:10

it doesn't, it's not

24:12

logical to lose your crap right

24:14

now honey. That doesn't work right

24:16

but if I can instead

24:19

I hold my daughter I have skin-to-skin

24:21

contact with her I hug her I say

24:23

it's gonna be okay it's not gonna last

24:25

forever it's alright just breathe all

24:27

your air out don't

24:29

ever worry about the in-breath people breathe the

24:31

air out right so

24:34

when we do that and I have

24:36

this moment of touching in turn just

24:38

saying I see you hon it's okay

24:40

just breathe. I'm teaching my inner parts

24:42

to have a containing boundary just like

24:44

I would teach my four-year-old self and

24:46

I don't have a teenager yet because my daughter's

24:48

so young you guys can

24:51

talk more about how to do containing

24:53

boundaries with teenagers but teaching

24:56

my more protective parts to

24:58

have containing boundaries is much more

25:00

like talking to a teenage self.

25:02

Did you notice and how she would

25:04

flip in and out between talking to

25:07

yourself and your young selves yes and

25:09

your daughter and I find that when

25:11

people sometimes it's very hard to access

25:13

the kindness towards me towards themselves right

25:16

but boy if you ask them about

25:18

their child they can feel it right

25:20

away yeah and I have clients who

25:22

can't do that because they don't

25:25

have kids or they're not in

25:27

close relationships like that but they can do it with

25:29

an animal or they can do it with a plant

25:31

that they're growing in their house. Right

25:34

what's something that evokes that part

25:36

of you and then yeah that holding that part

25:38

and what I for the listeners she's putting

25:40

her hand physically on the heart and you

25:42

can see that and so it's that

25:44

containing part and I like what you were saying

25:46

earlier just to bring it back that

25:48

in being able to give that

25:51

younger self a sense

25:53

of being attended to and comforted

25:55

that younger self then develops

25:57

you are really healing that younger self

25:59

in the It's not just a moment

26:01

by moment. You're not just

26:03

managing because through the touch what you're doing is you're

26:06

healing and you're saying that that's the part, that inner

26:08

part to say, oh wait, just because

26:10

what my husband or

26:12

wife just did is so triggering to

26:14

me. I think so often in partnerships

26:18

or in any relationship, mother,

26:20

child, that the

26:22

anticipation of the threat is

26:24

so scary that our protector

26:26

mode has to come out faster. I think what I

26:28

hear you saying is by tending to

26:31

that younger part, then that

26:33

younger part feels calmer and not as

26:35

threatened in general when that outside

26:37

activity starts happening. What

26:40

I'm offering is a disconfirming experience. It's

26:44

a mismatch between what that part of me

26:46

experienced because one of the things, the reason

26:48

they're so overwhelmed is because they were alone.

26:53

Having trauma in each other

26:55

and our kids is actually really, really

26:57

easy to do. What we need

26:59

is to not leave people alone. You

27:02

mean not leave them alone with their feelings or

27:04

with their feelings? With their feelings at that moment. Right.

27:07

That's right. Right. It's

27:09

true no matter what kind of trauma you're talking about, but if you

27:12

have a moment of connection

27:14

immediately after something was overwhelming,

27:17

your body will begin to make a coherent

27:20

narrative of it. Because of that, it

27:22

won't get stored in only implicit memory.

27:25

It'll get stored in explicit memory as

27:27

well. Now it just becomes a part

27:29

of my whole story and not something

27:31

that's going to pop up and overwhelm

27:33

me. Yeah, not a fragmented piece. Our

27:36

brains, our right prefrontal cortex, for those of

27:38

you who don't know, is actually one of

27:40

the weightier parts of our brain. It's actually

27:43

way bigger on the right side than it

27:45

is on the left side. One

27:47

of the things that our bodies have

27:49

evolved to do is to

27:52

utilize our ability to share

27:54

each other's nervous systems in

27:57

order to contain what is uncontainable.

27:59

in a single nervous system and

28:01

that right prefrontal cortex is all

28:03

the neuron juice that's needed to

28:06

do that very big job is

28:08

to feel the edge between you and me

28:10

and the connection between you and me at

28:12

the same time. I think that point

28:14

you're making is so essential to what we're talking about.

28:17

So I kind of want to talk about kind of

28:19

slow it down just a little bit so that people

28:21

can take a little time to absorb that.

28:23

Yeah. Because what I hear you

28:25

talking about is that the individual nervous system isn't

28:27

meant to survive alone. No. We

28:30

can't. We are vulnerable little

28:32

bodies. And when we feel alone especially

28:34

in an intense traumatic moment that that

28:36

in and of itself that the aloneness

28:38

is what's a threat. Not just the

28:40

trauma but the aloneness because our body

28:42

says that's not safe. Right.

28:45

In group we actually think we can handle

28:47

just about anything. Yes. But

28:50

on our own we can't. We

28:52

need each other's system. We

28:55

need a co-regulatory system. So

28:57

what I hear you saying which is really beautiful is that you can be

29:00

also your own co-regulatory system. That's right.

29:03

Yeah. By putting it in our grown

29:06

up brains once I have that whole

29:08

prefrontal cortex totally developed then

29:10

I now have a

29:12

relational system inside myself where

29:14

I don't have to feel alone even

29:17

in moments when technically there's nobody

29:19

around. So

29:30

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29:32

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29:43

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29:45

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29:47

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29:52

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30:12

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therapist uncensored. And

30:34

so all of you if you've been following some of

30:36

the history of the podcast I was

30:38

thinking about people that are on the more

30:40

avoidant dismissive blue side of things. That hit

30:42

me. And

30:46

that we can fight this. Like our

30:48

whole survival is based on not knowing

30:50

that we need exactly the thing that

30:52

you're describing so sweetly and the need

30:54

itself can be its own threat. So

30:58

this can get so complicated but like once we

31:00

get that buy-in of like oh, this is what

31:02

I need. Then now this

31:04

is a downhill thing. But sometimes there's this

31:06

first thing of yes everyone

31:08

listening right now. That

31:11

we are social beings and it

31:13

doesn't matter if you don't have friends or if you're not

31:16

partnered or anything like that. That

31:18

we still need this co-regulatory system. And

31:20

with myself I know this is true

31:22

of my own therapeutic history and with some of my

31:24

clients who I work with. I work with a lot

31:26

of people who are more on that blue side.

31:29

Sometimes developing really

31:31

conscious relationship with these

31:33

good boundaries containing boundaries and

31:35

good psychological boundaries within my

31:37

own system is

31:40

needed before it feels safe enough to

31:42

admit that I have the need for others. And

31:46

so sometimes you can start with you and

31:49

start with building your relationship with you

31:51

and your internal voices or

31:53

neural networks or parts or people whatever

31:56

language works for you. And

31:58

if anybody is a little bit lost with our youth, use of

32:00

colors and things like that. There are three

32:02

episodes, episodes 59, 60, and 61 from

32:05

season two that really go into

32:08

a lot more detail so that we won't

32:10

do it again here but we'll talk about

32:12

the attachment system which is deeply tied to

32:14

the regulatory system that you can hear Jule's

32:16

talking about. And we've mentioned the word ventral

32:18

vagal. We also have other podcasts about the

32:20

polyvagal system and we're going to do some

32:22

more soon. But earlier, you know,

32:24

when I said, well, that sounds really good but you're

32:26

in ventral vagal and what about when, you know, I

32:28

was actually had this idea, what do we throw her

32:30

some examples? And

32:33

so whatever the example, I don't know what the example

32:36

in this one but it's something where you're not in

32:38

your regulated self. Yeah. So

32:40

we can talk about, you've mentioned

32:42

three different types of boundaries. I love

32:44

what we're talking about. We're talking about

32:46

how boundaries have a lot to do with

32:48

what's going on in your own internal system.

32:50

It's not just blocking out the threats and

32:53

being aware of your own internal threats

32:55

and safety. And then we're talking about

32:57

in relationships, how do you have boundaries?

32:59

Like you said, the external boundaries are

33:01

psychological to containing. So let's throw

33:04

some examples out of her. I

33:06

love it. I'll talk about it. Oh, man. We'll

33:08

talk about, well, how do you narrate

33:11

through what happens, right? Well,

33:13

I guess one of the examples, you were

33:15

talking about you and your husband having this

33:18

dialogue about parenting and you were able to

33:20

co-regulate and kind of get down to it.

33:22

What happens when you've got your

33:24

Jello wall and you're saying, is it about me?

33:26

But the answer is yes. Because

33:29

it isn't true. Yes. Because your husband

33:31

or your wife is saying,

33:33

you know, you, I don't

33:35

know what would be the example. Okay.

33:38

Here's one. Here's one. Here's one. I

33:40

am terrible at turning on my cell

33:42

phone. I have

33:44

the ringer off constantly. Having one

33:46

phone is just easier for me. So I

33:48

never turn my ringer on because who knows who's

33:50

calling me in this moment. My

33:53

poor husband, he can never

33:55

get a hold of me. I feel so bad and

33:57

I try to remember. I won't always

33:59

remember the ringer back on but I try to

34:01

remember at the end of work to call him or text

34:03

him and let him know I'm on

34:05

my way home, do you need anything, sort of

34:08

make contact. What happens

34:10

if for like three weeks in a

34:12

row I totally forget which has totally

34:14

happened? He

34:17

has every right to come to me with

34:19

a little bit of a complaint and

34:21

say you know, we talked about

34:23

you being unreachable, is there some way

34:26

you could be reachable, we've talked about

34:28

this and you're not doing it. So

34:32

I look at that and I say true or

34:34

not true? True, about

34:36

me, not about me, about me. Well

34:39

that should make it in and then

34:41

if everything's going really well with my

34:44

internal dialogue. Right where you don't fall

34:46

into your heart. Let's

34:49

say I did for a second. Let's say I

34:51

went into a total shame attack because I've got

34:53

lots of that internal core shame stuff going on.

34:55

Let's say I go into an internal shame attack

34:57

in that moment and my

35:00

protectors want to defend against

35:02

it. This is not that big a

35:04

deal. I never home that late. I don't

35:06

know why you're worried. Let me talk

35:09

you out of your worry. You guys

35:11

know how that goes. Totally. Right.

35:14

So instead of that, in that moment,

35:16

I identify the little part of me

35:18

that's having the shame attack. It's

35:20

flooding and she's going, we're

35:23

terrible. I don't even

35:25

know why he's married to me. I don't

35:27

deserve him. Right. She's doing

35:29

this thing and I have a

35:31

really good jello wall between me and her

35:34

and I say true or not true? About

35:36

me, not about me. I say nope,

35:38

not true, not about me but it

35:41

is about this internal sense that's really

35:43

hard for her to remember that when

35:45

we do something that's wrong, it doesn't

35:47

mean I am wrong. It's really hard

35:49

for her to remember. He's upset with

35:51

you and you can see his activation.

35:53

Totally. And he has

35:55

every right to be. And she's

35:59

sitting there. there and she can't remember the

36:02

difference between I am bad and I did

36:04

bad. So my first job is

36:06

to hold. Or that he's bad. Or that he's

36:08

bad. Right. That's my teenager self.

36:10

My teenager self says he's making a big deal out

36:12

of nothing, i.e. blame. And

36:15

my internal little part is saying, ahh.

36:18

Right? So now I need to

36:20

contain both of them. So I loved,

36:22

you guys did a segment not that long

36:25

ago I think on pausing in

36:27

order to do emotional regulation, first stop and

36:29

do the opposite. What you guys are talking

36:31

about is containing your protectors. I loved it.

36:33

I was like, yay. We're talking about

36:36

containing protectors. So first I have to

36:38

stop that teenager part from saying you're

36:40

worried about nothing. Don't

36:42

be ridiculous. Right? All of the

36:44

judgment. And because I'm a marriage and family therapist,

36:46

I'm good enough not to say it out loud

36:48

but I totally think it and it's not like

36:50

you can't tell. So

36:53

hopefully what I'm going to do is

36:55

first I'm going to approach her, that

36:57

protector part of me that's saying

37:00

don't worry and hold her back

37:02

and say wait a second. The

37:06

judgment isn't helpful here. I

37:08

totally get it. You're afraid for this other one.

37:11

But don't worry. I got

37:13

this. Then I go to the little one and

37:15

remind her, we

37:18

didn't learn this early on but

37:20

it's true. Doing

37:22

bad, doing bad, different. And

37:25

so are you actually doing this? I'm actually

37:27

doing this in my mind but because

37:29

I've practiced so much, now it

37:31

happens like lightning. In the beginning,

37:33

it took like five minutes. I had to

37:35

go, hold on babe, time out for a

37:37

sec. Let me go do the thing

37:39

so that I can approach you in a way that works.

37:42

But now it's so rapid, I could

37:45

do the teeniest little thing

37:47

like yeah. And I just touched my heart and

37:51

touched her in my mind's eye and

37:53

just reminded her, doing something

37:56

that's wrong or hurt somebody is not the

37:58

same as being bad. And

38:01

I've worked that mantra so many

38:03

times now that it feels

38:05

like lightning fast, right? So I touched

38:07

that little part of me my protector

38:09

feels safe can step back and Now

38:12

I can lean in to him and say you know what

38:15

you're totally right We you

38:17

are right to be angry And

38:20

I am really sorry. I'm dry any I'm dropping

38:22

you I'm dropping you yeah, and I

38:24

will do better And that and

38:26

because I can feel it in my

38:28

body. I allowed myself to feel it.

38:30

Yeah, that's right, right Feel it you've

38:32

affected him then what we

38:35

don't change our behavior without the

38:37

emotional juice Right, I

38:39

can't get my way into changing you had to take

38:41

him in I had to take him in

38:43

I had to feel the healthy

38:45

shame part That's

38:48

gonna actually allow me to change that

38:50

behavior and remind me. Oh, yeah I

38:52

need to pay more attention to

38:55

Being with him and this need

38:57

to know where I am is totally fine

38:59

and normal because there's a part of me that says But

39:04

of course he does He's my person

39:07

Somebody asks you to do something that

39:10

let's say former client You

39:12

don't have any room on your caseload don't have

39:14

any but you love this client And

39:17

they're like hey, you know and they do

39:19

all the things Yes,

39:22

I read this it's urgent

39:25

And I know you said you weren't accepting

39:27

clients on your voicemail that was already out

39:29

or you know But I really would love

39:31

for you to make an exception for me. Yeah,

39:33

okay, so who I throw up

39:36

my jello wall first And say

39:39

true or not true about me not about me

39:41

this client has an urgent need true or not

39:43

true Well, I actually don't know I

39:46

know that they are communicating it

39:49

to me that they're urgent

39:51

that that's urgent I

39:53

don't know if that's true or not. So

39:56

I mean, I don't know there Can

39:59

you make an exception? exception for me. No. I

40:01

have to get some clarity around

40:03

do I really have any wiggle

40:06

room here? No.

40:08

Okay. About me, not about

40:10

me. This goes back to this

40:12

idea that boundaries have nothing to do with whether

40:14

you love someone or not. I

40:17

know we're not as therapists supposed to talk about love.

40:19

Oh, we talk about it all the time. But I

40:21

talk about it all the time. Don't worry about it.

40:23

It just happens. I do. I love my clients. And

40:25

so let's say I totally love this client, this boundary.

40:27

I have to remind myself in my mind's eye, oh,

40:31

this has nothing to do with whether you love

40:33

someone or not. Right? And

40:36

then, okay, here's another little one I give to

40:38

people. I say this mantra

40:41

to myself because this is so

40:44

true. It's

40:46

not my job to take care of their feelings.

40:48

It's actually respectful and

40:51

benevolent for me to allow an adult

40:53

human being to process their own emotion.

40:57

So we're going to pull that out and

40:59

put it in big letters on our show

41:01

notes because that's awesome. It is respectful and

41:03

benevolent. Right? I don't get to control other people.

41:06

If I were to cross that boundary,

41:08

what's actually happening is I'm going to

41:10

control your feeling. Yes. That

41:13

dance is about me not feeling

41:16

bad and not feeling guilty by controlling whether

41:18

you are disappointed in me or not. That's

41:20

right. That's right. So really, it's actually, it's

41:22

caretaking. It's actually caretaking little parts of me.

41:25

Right. So if I can take care of

41:27

them really well, so now watch, I'm going

41:29

to turn it inwards and I'm going to

41:31

go, there's a part of me

41:33

that loves to be needed that really wants

41:35

to say yes. I'm going to take care of her. There's

41:38

a part of me that doesn't want to

41:40

do anything wrong ever. I'm going

41:42

to take care of her. There's

41:44

a part of me who wants to

41:47

be able to not have the vulnerability of

41:49

humanity and have any limits at all and

41:51

he's very big and strong and he doesn't

41:53

like to say that anything will ever happen

41:56

that's bad. They

41:58

all want to say yes to this. So I

42:00

have to do a really good

42:02

job of being compassionate and listening

42:05

connect first redirect second with every

42:07

little internal. Pardon me first

42:10

then I can call this client back and

42:12

say I totally hear

42:14

your urgency. I hear

42:17

how much you need to come in. I

42:19

cannot do it. Here are three

42:21

referrals. High five on that

42:23

one. That's rough. I love you

42:25

walking us through the process. And

42:28

part of what you had to do is you identified the

42:31

different urges like impulses to action

42:34

and also takes us to this

42:36

notion of caretaking as really selfish

42:38

actually. Actually caretaking is totally selfish.

42:41

It's all about caring to control, not caring

42:44

for other people but we don't

42:46

get to control other people period.

42:50

And you know what it makes me think of too is kids and

42:53

how often we screw them up by doing

42:55

things like be nice to them. Well

42:58

I know that you didn't want

43:00

to invite them and that we

43:02

instruct actually to not listen

43:04

to ourselves and not take care of ourselves.

43:06

And this is one thing that again Adam and

43:08

I, Adam's my husband's name have had discussions about

43:10

and I get really passionate about when we talk

43:13

about it because we're raising a little girl and

43:16

I think we teach little girls

43:18

lots of terrible things. Yeah

43:21

and she doesn't want grandpa to hug her. Even

43:23

if it hurts grandpa's feelings. What if

43:25

we're saying goodbye to nana and grandpa

43:27

and in that moment she doesn't want

43:29

to hug goodbye and this happens all

43:31

the time and I am a

43:34

big advocate for saying that's okay. And

43:37

I'm not going to take care of nana and

43:39

grandpa's feelings because how about a high five?

43:42

How about a high five? And that doesn't mean we

43:44

don't say goodbye. Right. That's right. It

43:46

doesn't mean we're not respectful. I'm not going to know.

43:49

We are in a family. We're going to say goodbye.

43:51

And if hugging doesn't feel good to you right now, we'll

43:54

feel good to say goodbye. Yeah,

43:56

rather than we really honor the

43:58

relational connection which honors

44:00

both the self and the needs of

44:02

the other that both are included. Okay

44:06

so wait another example Jules we're giving you examples

44:08

and I want to test another one out your

44:10

way so let's take a different direction here. So

44:13

you know when your husband approached

44:15

you with that issue from your

44:17

description he sounded pretty

44:20

darn reasonable pretty calm cool

44:22

collected. He was doing

44:24

great but let's just suppose he did.

44:26

He's a little red let's say he's

44:28

a little red. Let's say he's red.

44:30

Yeah so he's a little preoccupied. He's

44:32

not by the way we're both blue blood. Right right

44:34

right. Let's imagine he is red.

44:36

Right or he's not even just red but he's

44:39

upset. Actually let's just get away

44:41

from your relationship. Let's think more

44:43

abstractly. Oftentimes when people have

44:45

been together for years we've talked about

44:47

how our brains are just predicting

44:50

machines so that

44:52

we're very familiar with what we

44:54

imagine our spouse or our child are

44:57

going to do and that

44:59

can breed threat really quickly and

45:02

we often aren't so calm would

45:04

we all agree you know. I can

45:06

guarantee there are listeners out there saying

45:08

there is no way my partner

45:11

would come to me so nicely

45:13

and reasonably. Even with one person

45:15

stopping to take time to try to even

45:18

generate the jello mold that that in itself

45:20

could feel like some kind of a threat.

45:22

Where have you been? Or even in

45:24

a reasonable at least reasonable to

45:26

one person's mind question like

45:29

where have you been that can

45:31

be felt by the other as an

45:33

inquisition or some implied judgment which actually

45:35

says you let me down

45:38

constantly and so we're already

45:40

feeling our own activation. Yeah let's talk about

45:42

real life. Yeah exactly.

45:44

I know there's people out there like

45:46

I don't think that's gonna that's they're

45:48

gonna respond like that. Totally totally and

45:50

you're and you're right so let's let's

45:52

imagine that they're coming at me hot

45:55

right. This is where the jello wall

45:57

is the most important thing in the

46:00

world to have because

46:02

if I have it and

46:05

he's shouting you never call I

46:07

say true or not true and

46:10

I not

46:12

true right and is

46:14

it true I haven't called lately yes that's

46:16

true I let that in right

46:19

so you can do it with this nuanced thing so

46:23

he's raising his voice is that about

46:25

me or not about me it is not

46:27

about me I'm gonna

46:29

keep that on the other side of

46:32

this I'm not gonna let that in

46:34

as a personal attack I'm gonna let

46:36

that in his information about what's going

46:38

on with him that's not about me

46:40

that's about him does

46:42

that make sense and

46:45

so I can say

46:47

things like I

46:50

totally get why you're upset I

46:53

cannot talk to you while you're yelling let's

46:57

take a pause love

46:59

it because what it immediately in

47:02

that little bit that's right well

47:04

and it keeps you engaged in

47:06

this co-regulation process right so he's

47:08

actually he needs something in that

47:10

moment from you even though he's

47:12

not articulating it well right but

47:14

you can by you keeping yourself

47:16

safe enough and not hoovering in

47:18

the fear of yeah eyes or

47:20

tone of voice or what have

47:22

you now you're more social basically

47:25

your neural system is a little

47:27

bit stays intact enough to

47:29

be able to use your voice and

47:31

your eyes and your words to help give him

47:33

something right there and then in the moment of

47:35

what he needs to yes and

47:37

still maintain a boundary where it's actually not

47:39

okay for you to yell at me right

47:42

so I'm gonna take a pause right of

47:44

course if you can't even figure

47:46

out is it true not

47:48

true is it about me not me

47:50

because you're just so overstimulated and activated

47:53

and you don't have the space yeah

47:55

and sometimes we need the space I

47:57

call it relational jiu-jitsu jiu-jitsu Jiu-jitsu

48:00

is that form of martial arts where

48:02

you help the person throwing a punch and

48:04

you Actually utilize their energy

48:07

to help sweep them away from your body.

48:09

It's the same kind of thing It's

48:12

relational jiu-jitsu and that's all

48:14

about being able to stay on regulated

48:16

on my side of the net, right?

48:18

So This

48:21

guy Terry real who I absolutely love

48:23

a couples counselor who's fabulous talk by the

48:25

way We have him scheduled for our podcast soon.

48:27

So yay everybody tuned in that one. He's so

48:29

great so he talks about

48:32

being in a couple like being in tennis match and If

48:36

I am in a tennis match and I run over

48:38

your side to tell you how to hit the ball

48:40

better That's not gonna work out so well

48:43

And if I throw down my racket and run

48:46

away, that's not gonna work so well, right? I

48:48

can't control what's happening on the other side of

48:51

the net All I can do

48:53

is control what's happening on my side of the

48:55

net and the more I do that The more

48:57

I'm able to stay in relationships with you Even

48:59

if you're the one having a bad day and

49:01

you're able to stay with me if you're doing

49:04

that same work Even if I'm the

49:06

one having a bad day So some days

49:09

great day for me hard day for my

49:11

relationship hard day for you Some

49:13

days great day for you great day for me great

49:15

day for relationship and Part

49:18

of how that works just is that if I'm

49:20

looking across the net and I see that I'm

49:22

like Overshooting it and hitting the but net and

49:24

just screwing up, right? Yes, but I see you

49:26

super calm and just ready to get the ball

49:28

if I ever get it across Totally,

49:31

then it's gonna calm my body down. Yeah,

49:33

so that whatever is going on that I'm

49:35

freaking out to begin with again

49:37

That's this neuroception that like

49:39

I'm gonna just naturally Begin

49:43

to Wi-Fi sync with you And

49:45

so you're it's a very strong position to

49:48

not be getting mad because I can't get the ball over the net

49:50

or that I'm tossing it at you too

49:52

hard or whatever the problem is Right, but that

49:54

you're just dealing with your side of the street

49:57

and as I look over there like

49:59

all as well in the world and now I

50:01

want to come to you or I want

50:03

to use it. Because the truth is I

50:06

love you like crazy. Why on earth would

50:08

I want to bring anything other than my

50:10

best self unless I'm so triggered I need

50:12

to turn inwards and take care of me. That's

50:15

great. Love it you guys. Everybody's

50:17

getting some fantastic therapy and

50:20

how about we go over one last time

50:22

just name the three. Sure. You

50:24

got your external boundary that's the

50:27

I don't want to talk to you when you're raising your voice

50:29

at me. Great. External boundary or I'd

50:31

love to see you but I can't. But

50:34

I can't. I can't right now. Right. Right.

50:37

Or I can't ever that's possible. Or it's the concept

50:39

of having to say no. It's the concept of having to

50:41

say no to some thing. Right.

50:44

That's great. And then there's the psychological

50:46

boundary. That's your Jell-O wall.

50:48

That's that separation between you and me

50:50

separation between true self and parts of

50:52

self. And then

50:54

you have your containing boundary and that's the one

50:57

that stops you from acting out. So

50:59

if more containing boundaries in place and my partner is

51:01

yelling at me I will not

51:03

allow myself to yell at them and

51:05

I can use that containing boundary by teaching

51:08

my internal parts to be more contained

51:10

to stand behind me to trust my

51:12

strong adult integrated brain to handle this.

51:15

That's great. Yeah. Fantastic.

51:18

We're going to put some of this in

51:21

the show notes for sure including the reference

51:23

for the poem that Jules read. Oh yeah.

51:26

That would be really fun. Yes for sure. And

51:28

I want you to tell everybody if they're looking to reach you. Oh sure.

51:31

www.ipnbaustin.com. That

51:37

stands for Interpersonal Neurobiology. And

51:40

Julianne Taylor-Schor is my name.

51:44

And yeah there's lots of good info on there.

51:46

We've got a lot of therapists who work

51:49

at IPNV Psychotherapy of Austin who are trained

51:51

in a similar way. And

51:54

if you're local you also do some

51:56

training. Yes I do. So study groups

51:59

and. one-off trainings and

52:01

consultation groups. Excellent.

52:03

Jules, you are such a great resource

52:06

for us in Austin. You really are.

52:08

Oh my gosh. Thank you guys.

52:10

Oh my gosh. How much fun is this? This

52:13

is awesome. You did fantastic and

52:15

I always get so much every single time that

52:17

we interview somebody but I was like, oh this

52:19

is why I said this is such great therapy.

52:21

Fantastic. Right and

52:23

for those of you that may have

52:25

some comments about today's episode or something

52:27

in the past or just some feedback

52:30

or a request for future, we have a

52:33

way of giving direct feedback, right Sue? That's

52:35

right. If you go to the

52:37

website which is therapistsandcensor.com, there's a little floating

52:39

blue I did look in. We've

52:41

been calling it all kinds of colors but it's

52:43

actually a blue button that you push and you

52:45

can leave a voicemail and we will be able

52:48

to hear your voice and even respond sometimes directly

52:50

to you and what we

52:52

will be doing is incorporating some of this feedback

52:55

on our show in the future. So be sure

52:57

and we would love to hear any thoughts,

52:59

any challenges, your favorite takeaways

53:01

from the episode today and

53:05

more of what you want to hear about and

53:07

particularly for season three like we're looking ahead for

53:09

season three so we'd love to hear your feedback on

53:11

that. And in the meantime as far as seeing what

53:13

we're up to, the biggest thing you can do is

53:15

go to Facebook and like us, that's a pretty active

53:17

group that we're in. There's a private group too that

53:19

you can ask to be a part of and

53:22

you'll hear about things coming from there. Right.

53:25

Thank you, Joes. Thanks guys and thanks

53:27

for all of you for joining us.