0:04

Look, it's free. This is

0:06

not a big investment. And

0:09

I tell everybody this, try it.

0:12

It may work. And I'm

0:14

constantly amazed. Talking

0:16

to members of my family, and of course,

0:19

when I'm having problems, they'll say, you know, dad,

0:21

you should write about this. And it just is

0:23

a no-h, the help out of me. But they're

0:25

right. Welcome

0:28

to Therapist Uncensored. Building on decades

0:31

of professional experience, this podcast tackles

0:33

neurobiology, modern attachment, and more in

0:35

an honest way that's helpful in

0:37

healing humans. Your session begins now

0:39

with Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue

0:42

Marriott. Ah,

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2:39

All right, Dr. Pennebaker, thank you so much for

2:41

joining us. Ann and I

2:43

are particularly interested in always

2:45

bringing to our audience things that actually

2:47

work and not just theory. In

2:51

particular, we love this because it

2:53

doesn't require a therapist and

2:55

it doesn't require any money. We

2:57

also really like promoting things that make the world

2:59

a better place and that

3:02

are accessible to everyone. We ran across

3:04

this protocol that you have

3:06

and series of studies that

3:08

have incredible health outcomes and mental

3:11

health outcomes. Tell us all about

3:13

it. I'm

3:15

a social psychologist and I'm

3:17

not a clinical psychologist. So I am

3:20

not trained to help people. You

3:24

just stumbled into that. No, I did. I

3:26

stumbled into it. You know, I

3:28

started graduate school because I was interested in the

3:30

mind-body problem and I was interested in how we

3:32

come to feel what we do, what

3:35

makes us anxious, what makes us

3:37

sick and things like that.

3:40

And once I started my

3:43

first job, I

3:45

had been doing a lot of work on

3:47

the psychology of physical symptoms when people feel

3:49

symptoms and how and why. And

3:51

I wanted to put together a big

3:53

questionnaire to identify what kind of people

3:56

report symptoms. And

3:58

There really wasn't much done on this back. There

4:00

it so I sat around with my students.

4:02

I said less, come up with a questionnaire.

4:05

And. Try to just identify what twin of.

4:07

He for what kind of behavior by be related

4:09

to or before he to physical sept himself. When

4:12

I sit on this questionnaire. Who. Cares

4:15

about theory? Do cares about. Any

4:17

major ideas? Was. Just throw

4:19

out anything that reached it is just a

4:22

somebody said I would ask questions about what

4:24

people eat. Another person wanted

4:26

to focus on. People's relationship

4:28

with their mothers and fathers. All these

4:30

cars, eggs and. Somebody. Said

4:32

have Macias. Prior. The ages

4:35

seventeen. Did you ever have a

4:37

traumatic sexual experience? Yes or no. You're.

4:40

A thought That was if and when. So.

4:42

He put all these. Questions. Together to it's been

4:45

about a twelve page questionnaire that we

4:47

go to several hundred college students. They.

4:50

Will we sound? Was that one

4:52

sexual trauma question? Was. Related

4:54

to every tells. Item that we had

4:56

all the whole questionnaire. Add.

4:59

What? Made this so interesting to

5:01

me was what was it

5:03

about a traumatic sexual experience?

5:06

That. Was the says he was health problem. So.

5:09

I do it other studies and

5:11

I started to notice with doing

5:13

studies with with adults samples. That

5:16

first of all, this is a really robust a sec.

5:18

But. The real problem was it

5:21

wasn't a dramatic sexual experience for

5:23

say. Was. Having any kind of

5:25

trauma, Was bad for he had week though There

5:27

are efforts. But having. A Bad:

5:29

Any kind of upheaval that

5:31

you keep secret increased it's

5:34

toxicity. There's other words. Big.

5:36

Secrets are really unhealthy.

5:39

And. As. You get it to the

5:41

as you as therapists you know very well. With.

5:43

This problem is. If. You

5:45

are keeping. A big secret. You.

5:47

Have to be on guard all the time

5:50

When somebody finds out what if I spilled

5:52

the beach how is this person? thinking.

5:54

About how I am right? dad? Is a know was

5:57

still a dog In other words, People.

5:59

who are too a big secret, they don't sleep as

6:01

well. They are on guard more

6:03

so their autonomic nervous system is more

6:05

active, their immune system is probably suppressed

6:08

and all of these factors together

6:10

make life miserable. And

6:14

therapists generally deal with people

6:16

too, frankly, are harboring really

6:19

big secrets. I'm terribly anxious,

6:21

I worry about this all the time, but I can't

6:23

tell anybody. Sometimes

6:25

they don't even know they're holding it as a secret, right?

6:27

Like these events happen and it's

6:29

sort of a secret in their body, but they're

6:31

not even consciously aware that they're holding it as

6:33

a secret. They're just not talking about it. It's

6:35

like gone, it's passed. I describe

6:37

it like holding a ball in a pool

6:40

under water kind of behind you that you

6:42

don't really know you're doing it, but it is taking some

6:45

passive effort to hold it down.

6:47

So rather than necessarily consciously thinking about

6:49

it, it's just something that we're just naturally doing

6:52

and maybe, and is it true that it's, is

6:54

it secrets specifically or

6:57

just unprocessed trauma? You

6:59

know, I don't make a big distinction that I think

7:02

it's it, I think it's both. So

7:04

around this time I started talking

7:06

to my therapist friends about their

7:09

views of therapy and why it

7:11

worked and the kind of

7:14

conversation you have is no really,

7:16

why does it work? Yeah,

7:18

yeah. Tell me about CBT.

7:20

Tell me about who cares

7:22

because all therapies work. Why

7:25

does it work? And

7:27

then I started wondering if holding secrets

7:29

is so bad. What if we brought people

7:31

in the laboratory and had them talk

7:34

to somebody about the secret, but as

7:37

a researcher, that's too complicated because then you're

7:39

having to deal with how the other person

7:41

reacts. So I encouraged me, well, what

7:43

about just having them come in and write about a

7:45

secret? And then I

7:47

came up with this issue of, well, a

7:50

secret's kind of ambiguous. How about I just

7:52

have people write about any kind of

7:55

major up people in their lives, Ideally

7:57

ones they haven't talked much about without..

7:59

The. In. There

8:02

was how. I started. And

8:04

I needed a lot of seeking about these and

8:06

tried to figure out well Julius haven't been in

8:08

right woods or. Should. I have the

8:10

right multiple time. Anyway,

8:13

I ah. Decided. To.

8:15

Do an experiment where I'd have. So.

8:18

That people these we all students it off for

8:20

a studies. Ah yes,

8:22

I'm the right of the other traumatic

8:24

experience it did. I had another group

8:26

at the same time right about superficial

8:28

topics. So. There was gonna win.

8:30

Experimental group. As. A control group.

8:33

And. I decided to have seats. All

8:36

right, Or four times.

8:38

Fifteen minutes a tie

8:40

now. The. Logic

8:42

of this. There. Was no

8:44

Siri, it was just. A fluke?

8:46

This issue was. I

8:49

needed to have read about fifty people.

8:52

And. I could get. A.

8:54

Group of rooms. Au.

8:57

Lait from about five pm.

8:59

Tilted at night. And.

9:01

I had to do it in four days

9:03

because I could do it on Monday through

9:05

Thursday night. That. Was why had

9:07

be right for time so. I'd line of

9:09

all of. Two people would

9:11

be scheduled every. Five. Or ten

9:14

minutes they come in. I'd talk to

9:16

them first. Is. He gives them the

9:18

right instructions feet up, a condition they were. Somebody.

9:21

With takes into a small room where they'd

9:23

be by themselves where they can write for

9:25

fifteen minutes. At the age of fifteen

9:27

minutes, yet another person would knock on the door and

9:29

say. Okay, your time's up. Fill.

9:31

Out this questionnaire And in staple the

9:34

questionnaire to your writing. Put. It

9:36

in this big bosses you leave and will see

9:38

you tomorrow. So.

9:40

That first study. There. Was

9:43

no theory. There was no anything

9:45

except. This. General idea that maybe

9:47

this could be beneficial. I also got

9:49

permission from all these students. To.

9:52

Have the student health center. Record.

9:55

Other visits to the student health center

9:57

by much from the for the experiments.

9:59

It's. Was after the experiment. By.

10:02

Either. Was it up, ah, illness? or

10:05

was it an injury? or was it

10:07

a check up or whatever psychic get

10:09

this information. When.

10:11

People came into the lab. A

10:14

sit down and I say okay so

10:16

they inside ever an experiment writing about

10:18

life experience which was me as something

10:20

vague. They. Said Dallas And

10:22

okay, I can't tell you exactly what this

10:25

study's about. But. When I'd like

10:27

to have to do is to write for for

10:29

died fifty visit I you'll be doing it year.

10:32

And a different the will be as to write

10:34

about different topics. Some. Topics

10:36

may be very personal, others maybe

10:38

not. Even quit any

10:41

times And yet full credit. In.

10:44

The. Usual could see if the shins. Are

10:47

you willing to participate? They say yes And they all

10:49

did. The. A bias. Listen

10:51

to call in. They were put in

10:53

either the experimental conditions where they have

10:55

right above emotional appeals for four days

10:57

or a superficial topic support day. If

11:00

there is a trauma conditions the very first

11:03

experiment a civil case. Sell.

11:05

For the next four days. When I would like to

11:07

had to write about is the most from bad as

11:09

he spear is that your entire life. When.

11:12

You go to that rule. I want you to start

11:14

writing about this. And the only rule ahead as to

11:17

write the entire time. If you run out of things

11:19

to write about, just repeat what you've already written. I.

11:22

Watch it a really let go would explore

11:24

your teeth. His thoughts and feelings about this.

11:27

You. Might try this into other issues in

11:29

your your life may be how it's related

11:31

to your sadly to other up saying experiences

11:33

to relationships you're here have been is it

11:36

could be related to school or have you

11:38

want to be in the teacher to you

11:40

have it in the past where do you

11:42

are in it. You. Should

11:44

write about the same from as he spurious every

11:46

day read write about a different with each day

11:48

Jesse tire the up to you. And.

11:51

Many of us have not had. Major trauma. With

11:53

all of this of head major stressors or

11:55

conflicts, they need to write about those as

11:57

well. The. When you're beaches,

11:59

right.? I was should have. Let.

12:02

Go in to immerse yourself

12:04

in its. Nose. Basically

12:06

these wretched. These.

12:09

By large for college students, they

12:11

were anywhere from no eighteen to

12:13

twenty two years old. And.

12:15

As a student wrote about travelers it

12:18

all of this would agree with major

12:20

upheaval. I was really impressed. This.

12:22

Was an upper middle class. University.

12:24

And. I. Was impressed by

12:26

the degree of hardship that it

12:29

of oddities kids had had. Had.

12:32

The other his she was the degree

12:34

to which they are the that almost

12:36

automatically started. Writing about. Incredibly.

12:39

Personal, powerful experience in this.

12:42

I. Was also fascinated about how they would walk

12:44

out of the lab every that. I

12:46

could see that led we were taught to them

12:48

briefly. Your. Sub had been try

12:51

to the rooms suggests were you

12:53

could sell were really exhausted special

12:55

the first night. Had.

12:57

By the end his experiments especially the

12:59

first day the u cel worse than

13:01

they did for they were idiot. they

13:03

felt somewhat sad like do which sad

13:06

movie. Or nobody slipped out.

13:08

Nobody would be required us to

13:10

take them to a supposes to

13:12

psychiatrists. But. The

13:14

one thing about it was it was a

13:17

powerful experience. Of what we

13:19

discovery compared to people who were asked to

13:21

write about the superficial topics in the superficial

13:23

salve would be. Describes. Er,

13:25

rip your your dormitory room. Describe

13:27

in a debt you would to in the

13:29

last twenty four hours. Make. It

13:31

very objective of where it just it did in

13:34

the sets. We. Tracks

13:36

or the student health records and the

13:38

people who wrote about these traumatic experiences

13:40

into that would as did the Hell

13:43

Sitter. About half the rate as

13:45

people in the to troll conditions and

13:47

also have rate of about people who

13:49

were not an experiment. In other words.

13:51

Writing. About these deeply

13:53

upset experiences. In

13:56

an interesting way seem to protect your

13:58

health. But. they were Other things

14:00

that were fascinating about this,

14:03

overwhelmingly, they said this was a

14:05

really powerful, very beneficial

14:07

experiment. To give you an

14:10

example, ask any

14:12

researcher about bringing people into

14:14

the lab for four days to do an experiment,

14:17

and ask what percentage the people don't finish

14:19

the study, it'll be 50%. We

14:22

got everybody. Everybody came and they

14:24

did the whole thing. Another

14:27

thing that was interesting was, over

14:30

the next year or two, I'd be walking on

14:32

campus, and sometimes a student would cut them up

14:34

to me and they'd say, I know you don't remember

14:36

me, but I was in your study last year, and

14:39

that study changed my life. Thank you for

14:41

letting me be in your study. I

14:44

can tell you, that had never happened to me. And

14:47

it just was a marker of what

14:49

an experience this was. You

14:51

really knew you had tapped into something incredibly

14:53

deep, and that was the start for you.

14:56

It wasn't like a path that says, I

14:58

gotta keep going forward. And

15:01

the other thing I knew was, the

15:03

second time we did the study, you

15:06

do the study, then you wait several months to go to

15:08

the Student Health Center to get the data. And

15:11

I remember coming back from the Student Health Center

15:13

the second time. The first time,

15:16

I was hopeful it would come out and it didn't come out,

15:18

that was a shock. And

15:20

in the second study, everything

15:23

was right on this. And I remember

15:25

going through, walking back from

15:27

the Student Health Center, just looking

15:29

at the various conditions of what had

15:32

happened. And I remember getting into

15:34

my office or running to a friend, and

15:36

I said, this worked. And I knew

15:38

that this would change

15:40

the course of my life, my career,

15:42

which it did. Well,

15:45

and there's been many studies since that

15:47

have just continued to validate. That's

15:49

right. In fact, there have been now over 2,000 expressive

15:52

writing studies since that first one, which was

15:55

published in 1986. And

15:58

we know that this writing and

16:00

you can bring about changes in not

16:02

just colds and flus and and minor

16:05

illnesses, but it's been associated with changes

16:08

in how long people are in

16:10

in the hospital after surgery. We

16:12

know this related to issues

16:14

like depression and PTSD arthritis,

16:17

asthma, fibromyalgia, sleep.

16:21

Oh, yes, sleep, which by the way, I think is one of the

16:23

most diagnostic issues.

16:27

And we'll come back

16:29

to this in a second because you're gonna ask why

16:31

does it work? And

16:34

the other issue is it was associated

16:36

with people who had been laid off from

16:38

their jobs. They got jobs more quickly. If they

16:40

wrote about they're getting laid off, it's

16:43

been associated with the fertility treatment.

16:45

It's been associated with my

16:47

God, this is breathtaking the kinds of studies that

16:49

have been done. And indeed,

16:52

if anybody out there listening to this

16:55

wants to know more information,

16:58

go to Google Scholar. Google

17:01

Scholar is one of my favorite places

17:03

because it's a essentially

17:05

appendix of all this

17:07

scientific literature. Enter

17:10

search terms, expressive writing

17:12

and fill

17:14

in the blank. What are you interested in?

17:16

Probably somebody has done something on it. The

17:19

first studies I did were 1986 and

17:23

then I was very active in this for

17:25

about 10 years and then I started to

17:27

move off into other areas that initially

17:30

were related. But I haven't

17:32

been involved in research on expressive writing in

17:34

which the tale of the

17:36

last few in the last several years. I can't

17:39

keep up with the literature. In fact this morning,

17:41

I did a quick search on

17:45

expressive writing studies in

17:47

the last year and there were

17:49

at least one or two hundred studies. I mean,

17:51

it's breathtaking. What was

17:53

really fascinating is you started and it

17:56

followed even doing blood draw studies. So

17:59

it wasn't just out for you. measures that we were

18:01

looking at. You looked at immunology

18:03

studies, the outcomes pre,

18:05

post, and out in

18:07

significant time periods after

18:09

this. Could you talk about that?

18:12

The second study I did, I worked with

18:14

Jan Keko Glaser and Ron Glaser, and back

18:17

in the 80s, they were

18:19

just starting in this new world of

18:21

psychoneuroimmunology. And we

18:23

teamed up and they were at

18:25

Ohio State, I was in Dallas at

18:28

SMU. And that study, we

18:30

drew blood before the experiment,

18:33

after the last day of writing, and then

18:35

again six weeks later. And

18:37

the blood would be set up to Columbus,

18:39

Ohio where they would assay the blood. What

18:43

we found was that people in

18:45

the experimental condition showed enhancement in

18:47

immune function compared to control. And

18:52

after that, I was involved in

18:54

some other immune studies looking at

18:56

immunity response. But there

18:58

have probably been a dozen immune studies

19:00

and there have been really cool studies

19:02

on wound healing, where you do

19:04

experimental wounds on people. There's

19:07

all sorts of fascinating things. It's

19:09

also associated with people making

19:11

better grades in college or

19:13

in high school. That people

19:15

do better on standardized

19:17

exams like the MCAT

19:20

or SATs if

19:22

they do writing beforehand. And

19:25

I think part of this is expressive

19:27

writing in a sense stills

19:29

the mind. It makes us, we

19:32

stop ruminating about these up peoples that we've

19:35

dealt with. I mean

19:37

it sounds too good to be true, really.

19:39

Like it's the elixir that we all look for,

19:42

that it fixes everything and it does everything

19:44

and it's free and short.

19:47

But let's temper everybody's

19:49

expectation. Yes,

19:52

it's free. Yes, anybody

19:54

can do it. Doesn't

19:56

always work. I do

19:58

expressive writing occasionally. usually once

20:00

or twice a year. Usually

20:03

it really helps. Sometimes it

20:05

doesn't. You know, there you go. I

20:08

think sometimes there are

20:10

all sorts of reasons why it doesn't work as well

20:12

as why it does work but don't

20:15

expect this to automatically change

20:17

your life. It is something that

20:20

can help put things in perspective but

20:22

sometimes it might just be too big

20:24

or it might be too close. So

20:28

my recommendation is to

20:31

try it out, see if it works for you, if

20:33

it doesn't, do something else. Go

20:36

to a therapist. Go jogging. Do some

20:39

yoga. You know, the reality is there

20:41

is no one true way

20:44

to fix anything. I

20:46

know that Andrew Huberman just had a

20:48

podcast and had spelled out this protocol

20:50

and it was very specific but

20:52

we've heard since then that you would say

20:55

it differently and I want to give you

20:57

the opportunity that everyone is going to be

20:59

interested in, okay, how do I do this? What

21:01

are the prompts? What are your suggestions? One of

21:03

the big problems is expressive writing.

21:07

With all these studies, we now know it's a

21:09

lot more complicated than what I started. You

21:12

know, at the beginning I thought I had found

21:14

truth. Write about

21:16

a trauma for four days but then I quickly

21:19

discovered you don't have to write about a

21:21

trauma. You can write about anything that's bothering

21:23

you and in fact that's the way

21:25

I write. You know, if I'm lying

21:27

in bed in the middle of the night and

21:30

obsessing about something that's maybe happened at school or

21:32

something that happened between my watch

21:34

and me or with our kids or, you know,

21:36

why is my ankle hurting and I'm

21:38

obsessing about it and so forth, I'll get

21:40

up and I'll just start writing. What's

21:42

going on here? Why am I thinking this?

21:46

I don't write four times. I'm not

21:48

writing about a trauma but what

21:50

I'm doing is I'm putting an experience

21:53

into words that has bugged me

21:56

and I think that the essence

21:58

of this. It might

22:00

be helpful to read just a very briefly go

22:02

over what we know in terms of why it

22:05

works. And then we can come back to some

22:07

of the more practical sides of it. Across

22:11

all of these studies, the

22:13

first thing I learned years ago is if

22:15

you're looking for a single explanation for this,

22:18

you will never find it because there's too

22:20

many things going on. And I

22:22

think of this as kind of a cascade of factors. The

22:26

first factor is merely

22:28

labeling, merely

22:31

describing something. I

22:34

had this experience. Very

22:37

often people don't even get to that. They

22:39

start to move into this world of, I'm

22:41

not going to talk about it because if I talk about it, it'll

22:44

just make me think about it, which is a

22:46

price, a kind of a goofy way of thinking. The

22:50

important issue though is labeling

22:53

it. The second is to start

22:55

to describe it, start to put it

22:57

in a language-based

23:00

format. You can

23:02

write, you could talk

23:04

to someone, you could talk to a

23:06

tree, it doesn't matter. And

23:09

your writing could be typed or

23:12

it could be handwritten or I've

23:14

done studies where I have people write

23:16

using finger writing and putting it in

23:18

the air. And in all those

23:20

cases, it worked. It's the

23:22

translation of what's inside your head

23:25

into words. So

23:27

that's really important. That process

23:30

also is interesting because when

23:32

you are describing something, first

23:35

of all, you're having to do a sentence. When

23:38

you start a sentence, you're committed

23:40

to finish that sentence. Unlike

23:43

if you're just walking down the street thinking

23:45

about something. When you think about this

23:47

upsetting experience and then you go, oh, I should have

23:49

said this. I wonder what

23:51

I'll have for dinner. But Here,

23:53

you are committed to finishing that sentence and

23:55

then you're kind of committing to the next

23:58

sentence and so forth.. In

24:00

which are able to do is start to

24:02

put together. You're. Finding meaning,

24:05

What? Happened. Why Did this happen? What?

24:07

Role did I play? How light get a

24:10

deal with? it's all of these are issues.

24:12

That. You could do with righty any other

24:14

thing I'd fight over and over. yet he is.

24:17

With. People write about some experience

24:19

they haven't talked about much with

24:21

others. They. Start to realize. This.

24:24

Experiences and bigger than I

24:26

ever thought. Yes, this

24:29

happens. Yes, True ahead of

24:31

is sleeping because of this and I had

24:33

a mid eighties I did losing weight and

24:35

I'd been severe of as I haven't seen

24:37

any my friends. And. Oh my

24:39

god this is a much bigger things that I ever

24:41

imagined an while this or might be a lot of

24:43

the last time said the like This happened several years

24:46

ago it I did the same thing undies a say.

24:48

In. Other words: Is helping people

24:50

to put things together. The

24:53

next issue is. This idea of

24:56

cleaning the law and clearing the law.

24:59

as a scientologist called going

25:01

Slayer. But. I just call it

25:03

the Clearing. The My The idea is that.

25:07

If. We habit of. Saying experience and were

25:09

ruminating about it. Was. Half

25:11

as his we're seeking about this is they

25:13

are. Pretty. Much all the taught.

25:16

And. East you can start that

25:19

ruination. All. The sudden peace

25:21

process. More information we saw. This. In.

25:23

The Clinical World Executive functioning.

25:26

Were. Sometimes referred to as working there

25:28

were. A. They're all sorts

25:30

of ways to test is working memory. But

25:33

what? You saw ideas, people who are of your

25:35

stress. They. Have much less working

25:37

memory. They just are incapable of

25:39

remembering and work is forgetful so

25:41

forth. So. They're been some

25:43

very fine studies where people are as

25:46

to. Come. Un like beginning

25:48

college students. To write about

25:50

a deep assassin seems that tommy to college.

25:53

Or. Controls off. The get what you find

25:55

years after this. they. Had greater working

25:57

livery. They. have greater working

25:59

liberal for several weeks afterwards and

26:01

they also do better in school.

26:04

They also sleep better and I think

26:06

all of these are markers of what

26:09

this expression writing is doing. There's

26:12

one other thing that's really important. We

26:16

know if you're gonna stand back and

26:18

look at what really

26:20

really works in psychology,

26:22

there's only two or three things that you can

26:24

really take to the day. One

26:27

other means putting up saying experiences into

26:29

words and you know

26:31

the psychoanalyst, the CBT people, the name

26:33

your three letter therapies, they

26:36

all involve language. Another

26:39

thing that you can take to

26:41

the bank is some kind of relaxation. There's all

26:44

sorts of types of relaxation but I

26:46

think being able to do that is

26:49

very important and the last which

26:51

is perhaps one of

26:53

the most powerful is establishment

26:55

of a social network, a

26:57

friendship network. And

27:00

one of the questions is, I've been

27:02

interested in, oh by the way I think

27:04

exercise, I throw that in as another one,

27:07

but this social network we know that

27:09

social support is one of

27:11

the best predictors of improved physical and

27:14

mental health. One

27:16

of the things I was curious about was if

27:18

people do expressive writing, are their

27:20

social behaviors changed afterwards? And so

27:23

what we did was to develop

27:25

in this device where

27:27

people would wear what we call an

27:30

E or the electronically activated recorder and

27:32

it was a recorder that came on

27:34

for 30 seconds and we'd go off

27:36

for 12 minutes. It would do

27:38

this off and on for two

27:40

days. One of my former

27:42

students, Matthias Mel, who's at the University of

27:45

Arizona has really taken this to the next

27:47

level in terms of ways of doing it.

27:50

What we would do is we'd have people do the

27:52

ear for two days and then

27:54

a week later they do the expressive writing and

27:56

then we'd have to wear the ear again much

27:59

later. And what we found

28:01

was that people who did this

28:03

expressive writing compared to controls, later

28:06

on they talked more,

28:09

they laughed more, they used more

28:11

positive emotion words, they were

28:13

more socially integrate. Now

28:16

we gave them questionnaires and asked, has your

28:18

social life changed and so forth? The questionnaires

28:21

didn't show anything, but these

28:23

objective markers of being socially

28:25

integrated did. So you

28:27

can see expressive writing is changing the

28:29

way we're thinking, is changing the

28:31

way we're feeling, is changing the way we're sleeping,

28:33

is changing the way we're connecting with others. So

28:36

it's all of these features that can make

28:38

a difference. Well, yeah,

28:41

it still sounds like an elixir in this

28:43

wonderful way. I keep translating what you're saying

28:45

into kind of therapy language, the

28:47

way that we think of it. And

28:49

what's so nice is it does dovetail so

28:51

much with the neuroscience and name it to

28:54

tame it and creating

28:56

a coherent narrative is part of

28:58

secure attachment. So that tracks just

29:00

incredibly. I do wonder, I

29:03

know that you've done all the different research

29:05

related to even finger writing, which is so

29:07

interesting, but you're saying thinking about it doesn't

29:09

work. But what about talking?

29:12

Honestly, I think talking can be the

29:14

best. But this

29:17

is a high risk game. It's

29:19

like poker. You

29:21

can tell another person about this horrible thing that

29:23

happened to you. And we've

29:25

all had this experience. You start to do this and

29:27

you look at the other person and you see their

29:29

facial expression and you can see the horror in their

29:32

eyes and you realize, whoop, this

29:34

was a bad idea. And then you

29:36

change topics. But there's

29:38

also people often keep

29:40

the secrets because they

29:42

know if they say it, it's going

29:44

to mess the family dynamics up. And

29:46

sometimes they are completely right or

29:49

that people will think less of

29:51

them. Yep, that's a good possibility as well.

29:54

So if you can be

29:56

certain that the other person will be, you

29:58

know, show. unconditional acceptance

30:01

of you, then

30:03

I think talking, that would be my first

30:05

choice. But

30:08

if you want to be safer, try

30:10

writing first and then talk.

30:14

Yeah, and I love your idea that you can, it

30:16

doesn't matter if anybody reads it, that you can throw

30:18

it away, that you even advise throwing it away. I

30:21

think that is great. I

30:24

was also thinking that part of the writing

30:26

process is if you, especially at the beginning

30:28

of something that you've really been holding back, I

30:31

think there's this element of social judgment. Even

30:33

if you trust the friends, you have this self-analysis

30:35

of what they're going to, you have this meta view

30:38

of what are they thinking about what I'm saying. So

30:40

it's harder to drop as deeply into

30:43

your own experience of when you're just

30:45

writing purely and you don't have that

30:47

thought. I'm going to tear it up at the end

30:49

or nobody that I know is going to

30:51

read it. There's this freedom for authenticity and

30:54

openness to connect without the meta view of

30:56

what are people thinking. And I think especially

30:59

today, it's harder and harder for

31:01

people not to think about what are people

31:03

thinking about what I'm thinking with social media,

31:05

etc. Everything's kind of a outside

31:07

in view of self and writing

31:09

is such a direct experience to

31:11

your internal process. I think

31:13

that's a really good way of putting it. I

31:16

also have noticed over the

31:18

years that people

31:21

would come in in our studies and they'll

31:23

write about something that they'd not talk to

31:25

anybody about. And then when we contact them

31:28

later, we'll ask how many people,

31:30

if you told about this experience, and

31:32

a high percentage of people have now

31:34

talked to other people about this experience.

31:37

Part of it they realize it's

31:40

not as horrific as they thought or

31:43

that they now have a different perspective on

31:45

it than when this may have happened several

31:47

months or years before. And

31:50

you make a distinction between journaling, just

31:52

what we typically think of as journaling.

31:54

And I'm also just thinking about clients

31:57

just talking versus this

32:00

kind of talking or this kind of writing. Can you

32:02

say a little bit about that? Well

32:04

I do make a big distinction between

32:07

you know keeping a diary or

32:09

journaling. To me journaling means doing this

32:11

every day for the rest of your

32:13

life which I can't imagine. That sounds

32:16

horrible. I would never do it. I know some

32:18

people do it great, it's beautiful. But for

32:20

me no. My approach

32:22

to this is look this

32:26

is like a band-aid or

32:28

penicillin or something like that.

32:31

Try it for three or four days and if at

32:33

the end of three or four days it doesn't work

32:35

do something else. And if

32:37

you're feeling better after three or four days

32:39

great stop and go you know go

32:41

enjoy life. Should you write when you're happy? I

32:44

don't. Why would I want to try to

32:46

understand why I'm happy? I just like being

32:48

happy. But the content is different though.

32:51

That's right. I think right that journaling we're

32:53

writing about our day or maybe talking about

32:55

our feelings. That's exactly right. That's exactly

32:57

right. So this might get

32:59

us into more of the detail of like

33:01

how would you prompt someone? Like what specifically

33:03

might you say? So this is

33:05

what I think has been

33:07

for me the biggest breakthrough over the last

33:10

20 years and that is there

33:13

is no one true way. I'm

33:15

giving you a detailed roadmap

33:19

of how to do this and

33:21

here's the detailed roadmap. Well

33:24

you know go do some writing. See if there

33:26

works for you. Okay what should

33:28

you write about? Any damn thing you

33:30

want. If you're upset about

33:32

something write about that and promise

33:35

yourself you're right at least say three or four

33:38

days for at least five to

33:40

fifteen minutes each day. And

33:43

again if you don't find any benefit no

33:45

harm no foul it still was free. However

33:49

this is a technique that can

33:51

be very beneficial. Now

33:53

initially you know I had people write about the

33:55

most traumatic spirits in their lives. I don't do

33:57

that. It depends on who asked me.

33:59

me to come in and talk to them. If

34:02

they've just been diagnosed with a disease,

34:04

I'll say, you know, if you want,

34:06

write about this diagnosis and explore your

34:08

deep thoughts and feelings. But

34:11

you might find some other topics are just

34:13

as important. Having

34:15

this disease also might have major

34:17

implications for your marriage. It might

34:19

have major implications for your career

34:22

or whatever. In

34:24

other words, try

34:27

to approach writing as a method

34:30

to better understand some topic that

34:32

is weighing on. Some

34:35

people say, well, you should write with your

34:38

non-dominant hand. Sure, try it out.

34:40

Some people really find value in it and

34:43

some don't. I don't, but that's just me. Some

34:45

people think that it's better to

34:48

write a story or to write it in third

34:50

person. Sure, if you want, try it. One

34:52

of my first students who worked on this, she

34:56

absolutely believed that writing and

34:58

then editing it later was

35:00

one of the most helpful things for her.

35:02

I believe her. I don't want to

35:04

do it. But again, what

35:08

I do with people

35:10

who want to know more about

35:12

this is to say, look, you're

35:14

the boss. You experiment to

35:17

see what works and be

35:19

a scientist about this. If you're having

35:21

trouble sleeping, start to record your sleep.

35:23

Maybe you've got a fitbit that'll do

35:25

it for you. Then look

35:28

to see, are you sleeping better?

35:30

Are you drinking less? Are

35:32

you exercising more? Are you

35:34

happier? Get some kind of objective

35:36

measures and try to see, do you

35:39

see any improvement from

35:41

what you're doing? If

35:45

you're not, try writing in a different

35:47

way. Try thinking about it differently. Maybe

35:49

another topic might be relevant. In

35:51

other words, don't

35:53

trust me. Don't trust

35:56

anybody. You are your

35:58

own therapist. And you

36:00

can see this is a little bougierian

36:02

without the bother of a therapist. It's

36:04

essentially saying, hey look, I

36:07

just work here. You're going to

36:09

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therapist uncensored. One

40:22

of the things that stands out about

40:24

this kind of open-ended instead of like

40:26

here is the protocol is

40:28

some of the things you've written about is

40:30

that writing

40:33

takes you on a journey and you don't know

40:35

where that journey is always going to end. If you have

40:37

a protocol and you try to stick to that this is

40:39

the four things you're going to do. You're going

40:41

to get caught in bringing yourself back into

40:43

the shoulds and going

40:45

from one place I'm I can't sleep and I'm

40:47

writing about this one thing that keeps I'm ruminating

40:49

about so I'm going to write about it and

40:52

if I'm told write about that exact thing every time

40:54

I might contain myself but what you've

40:56

mentioned before is that you can start writing and

40:58

it takes you into this and it reminds you

41:00

to this and you get bored and all of

41:02

a sudden you've gone a stream of consciousness and

41:05

then it starts landing into something that your

41:07

subconscious or your unconscious might be communicating to

41:10

you right I mean that it's just like

41:12

it's all you're on a journey and now

41:14

you're like every time I write about this

41:16

one thing that I'm ruminating about I land

41:18

over here and it's so

41:20

informative so I love what you're saying

41:22

open up the structure listen

41:24

to yourself that's part of the whole writing

41:27

process and that's right and it's been

41:29

so funny ever since I thought

41:31

first publications you know yet calls

41:33

and emails all the time you know where

41:36

do I get certified to do this I

41:38

want to be a writing therapist and

41:40

why haven't you patented this or

41:43

trademarked it and you

41:45

know capitalism is real yeah you

41:48

know I'm a big believer in

41:50

capitalism but this is not the

41:52

direction I want to spend my life I

41:54

want to discover things but the important issue

41:56

about this is everybody

42:00

approach has to suit

42:02

them and the beauty

42:04

of it because it's free you have

42:07

that freedom it will not be costly.

42:10

Well I was thinking though too that as far

42:12

as this how it works and why it works

42:14

and the immune system and but

42:17

there was also some findings about

42:19

language and language changing would you want

42:21

to speak to that a little bit? I'll talk

42:23

a little bit on the big danger is

42:25

I'll go and just start talking for

42:27

the next two or three hours. After

42:30

I guess I'd published the first two or

42:32

three papers on expressive writing I became obsessed

42:34

with the question can

42:37

you identify healthy writing by the

42:39

way people are writing

42:41

in the experimental condition and

42:44

you know one of the issues was that we would

42:46

do these studies we might have 30 people

42:49

who are writing about traumatic experience not

42:51

all of them get healthier and of course our measures

42:53

of health are really free but

42:56

who benefits and who doesn't? So

42:59

I initially got a group of counseling

43:01

psychology people in a master's program to

43:05

go through these and to evaluate

43:07

these trauma essays you know how

43:09

insightful are the people to what degree are

43:11

people using causal thinking and

43:14

what degree are they emotional so what's weird

43:16

this that yet? It

43:18

took them forever to do those ratings

43:21

that people didn't agree at all

43:23

several of them got depressed

43:25

just reading all these depressing

43:28

essays this was not an

43:30

effective strategy so

43:32

I thought well you know I had taken a computer course

43:34

in college I had looked

43:37

for computer programs and there weren't any and

43:39

I'd call some computer scientists around the country

43:41

and they all said it was a good idea but they didn't know

43:43

anybody who didn't need it. So

43:46

working with some one of my graduate

43:48

students at the time Martha Francis we

43:51

put together a computer program

43:53

called linguistic inquiry and word

43:55

count liwc and I

43:57

know I doesn't appear to be pronounced this way

43:59

but we call this LIWC loop, it's

44:01

the loop program. The

44:05

loop program would allow us

44:07

to go into any text and analyze it

44:09

in terms of its emotional tone,

44:11

is it positive, negative, is it high in

44:13

anger, etc. Cognitive

44:16

dimensions are people using

44:18

causal language, are they using

44:20

what we call self-reflection language where they're

44:23

using words like understand, realize, know, meaning,

44:25

etc. There

44:27

are many other dimensions of language. Once you

44:30

start, we initially had about 10 dimensions

44:33

of language and then we thought, well, we ought

44:35

to throw in pronouns and prepositions and articles in

44:37

other parts of speech. If

44:40

what we discovered early on was

44:43

that there were certain

44:45

fingerprints of healthy language and

44:48

if people used positive

44:50

emotion words, they benefited more

44:52

than if they didn't. So if

44:54

they use words like love, care, etc. But

44:58

kind of ironic, they're writing about horrible

45:00

things and often they'll say, I'm not

45:03

happy, nobody cares, I'm not happy, etc. But

45:06

ironically, that person is better off than

45:08

someone who doesn't use those words because

45:11

if someone says they're not

45:13

happy, they're still thinking along that

45:15

dimension of happiness. A

45:18

person who says they're sad and miserable is

45:20

probably more at risk. But

45:24

what we found was that people who used a

45:26

moderate number of negative emotion

45:28

words benefited the most. If

45:31

they used way too many, that was

45:33

problematic. They were probably, you know, ruminative,

45:35

maybe depressed or if they

45:37

didn't use any at all, they were probably

45:39

psychologically distancing and not much in touch with

45:41

what they were worried about. But

45:45

what mattered more than the emotion

45:47

words were the use of cognitive words.

45:49

And these cognitive words were about the

45:51

causal words and insight words that were

45:54

getting at the degree in which people

45:56

were trying to figure things out. token,

46:00

we're trying to put things together in some

46:02

kind of story for a bit. And

46:05

we found that that accounted for much

46:07

more action than emotion, two

46:09

things that we discovered. The

46:11

more that people increase their use of

46:13

these cognitive words, the more

46:16

they benefited, and

46:18

the more they change their

46:20

perspective from day to

46:22

day. So going from I

46:25

words to we words or they words

46:27

and bouncing around from day to day,

46:29

those people benefited more than people who

46:31

did. In other words, there had

46:34

to be some kind of growth in

46:36

their writing. If they came

46:38

in and wrote the same way every

46:40

day, by and large they did not.

46:44

I thought, well heck, this is great.

46:46

We will now do some experiments where

46:48

we will tell people how to write. And

46:50

initially we told them to try to use these kind of

46:53

words. That was a disaster. Because

46:55

they were trying to figure out which words to use. But

46:58

later we put it into the language that I just

47:00

said. You know, try to put together, try to make

47:02

this a story. Change your perspective, etc.

47:06

That has never worked. And

47:10

part of it is, what we're

47:12

studying here is some kind of emergent

47:14

process. That is, people

47:17

who come

47:19

in and they're obsessing about something and

47:21

they're worried about it, if

47:24

they, on the first day,

47:26

they do some kind of dump. Let

47:28

me tell you what happened better than the doc where

47:31

there's not much analysis. And the second

47:33

day there's more of this and more of that. That's

47:36

just a natural emergent process. But if

47:38

we tell them, okay, this

47:40

first day, just do this, just

47:42

do that. I think it

47:44

blocks what naturally occurs.

47:47

So I'm very reticent

47:49

to tell people how to do

47:51

it. But just very broadly,

47:53

okay, you know, you've written for

47:55

two days, your third day,

47:57

you might think about rest.

48:00

things up some but not being heavy-handed

48:02

about it. Are

48:04

you saying when you say cognitive words, are

48:07

you saying words like that

48:10

put some meaning to it like

48:12

because or cause or? And also

48:14

words like understand, realize, you know

48:17

if you do analysis of therapist

48:19

they're often pushing for that. What do

48:22

you think about this? You know how

48:24

are you feeling? You feel like you

48:26

understand those kinds of words and I

48:28

think one thing a therapist does is

48:31

a therapist is really

48:34

pushing people to think in certain ways that

48:36

I think are actually beneficial. Let me see

48:38

what's riding especially in this perspective changing. You

48:40

know if a client

48:42

comes in and they sit in

48:44

there having trouble in their marriage and they say you

48:46

know I'm feeling this I'm feeling that I'm feeling this

48:48

I'm feeling that. You're gonna say yeah

48:51

yeah yeah but what about

48:53

your spouse? What's your spouse's perspective? Or

48:56

if another person comes in and says my spouse he

48:58

does this he does that he does this he does

49:01

this he does and you say yeah yeah yeah but

49:03

you how are you feeling? What's going on in

49:05

your in other words your job

49:07

is to force perspective change

49:09

which I think can be very

49:11

beneficial. So those

49:14

words like because or

49:17

understanding is maybe activating different parts of

49:19

our mind that are making more meaning

49:21

of the story if we just come

49:23

and bitch and bitch and bitch in

49:26

our writing we're not maybe associating and

49:28

making some kind of progress in the

49:30

way that we're understanding the story is

49:32

that. I think that's a good way to think about it

49:35

that these words are

49:37

reflecting kind of the

49:39

cognitive work that's necessary in

49:41

therapy but actually you could make

49:43

the same argument for someone who's

49:46

learning the particle physics. It's

49:48

really hard to understand at first but then you

49:50

have to start you know I realize I think

49:52

I wonder those words I

49:54

think would probably be a predictor of who

49:57

learns that material better.

50:00

It's interesting. I can't help but think

50:02

again about therapy stuff and attachment and

50:04

like who are the people that just

50:06

write the same thing each time and

50:09

also I've heard you

50:11

say it's not what you say. It's how you say it,

50:14

which is a very much, you

50:16

know, in the attachment literature is that they're listening

50:19

for style of speech. So

50:21

do you know much about, is there an overlap

50:24

about some of this attachment? Is

50:27

this another way into those categories? I

50:30

used to know the attachment world

50:32

pretty well. As you know, there's

50:34

the attachment wars. I assume the

50:36

attachment wars are still going on,

50:38

which I've always been absolutely fascinated.

50:42

We just wrote a book. So yeah, we're familiar.

50:47

So I can't speak to this very

50:50

well, but certainly different attachment

50:52

styles are associated with different ways

50:54

of thinking and organizing material. And I

50:56

think that probably would mesh with some

50:59

of the things that we're finding. But

51:02

yet you're finding that you're

51:04

still by doing the exercise. And

51:07

I can imagine with

51:09

the prompts of like going right for the heart

51:11

of the watermelon and like do the hard thing

51:14

that in other

51:16

words, you're getting these massively

51:18

statistically significant effects. And

51:20

that's based against control groups. I

51:23

do want to be very clear here. These

51:26

are not massively powerful statistical

51:28

effects. They are reliable.

51:31

They are modest effects. To give you

51:33

an example, the

51:36

effects are of the same

51:38

magnitude of many

51:40

drugs. So for example, Prozac.

51:43

Prozac versus an active

51:46

placebo is not that strong a drug. So

51:49

we're not talking about kind of the effect of

51:51

some of the psychedelics are having. That's

51:53

right. That's right. Big effects. Well,

51:56

psychedelics have really big effects while they're

51:58

high. But the question is, is are

52:01

those people who take psychedelics today,

52:04

how are they in a month? Are

52:06

they healthier than months? They had people

52:08

who don't. And that's where

52:11

I think the effects are. They're going

52:13

to be very modest. And the

52:15

same is true with psychotherapy. You

52:18

do psychotherapy and

52:20

you go and you look at your clients too

52:22

much from now. Some

52:24

of them will be quite different or

52:27

somewhat different, so won't. But

52:29

the effects are modest. And Darien

52:32

is the killer problem. I think, you

52:35

know, it's been interesting. This world

52:37

is taking me in all these

52:39

different directions. So for example, what

52:42

do I favor if this is taking us in

52:44

an irrelevant direction but

52:46

it's interesting? It's

52:49

therapist uncensored. So we can say anything we want.

52:51

Go for it. So one

52:53

of my favorite studies was a

52:55

study that was done 30 years

52:58

ago. It was a study of

53:00

about 10,000 people, people

53:02

who had had a heart attack. And

53:04

what they did for half the people, they gave

53:07

them a daily aspirin and the other half the

53:09

people, they gave them a placebo. And

53:11

the study was so strong that

53:14

they showing that this aspirin used

53:16

prevented a second heart

53:18

attack that they stopped the study. Well

53:22

if you look at the effect size,

53:25

it is really, really small. If they

53:27

had done that study with 100

53:30

people, they would not have seen an effect.

53:33

If they had done it with a thousand

53:35

people, they probably would not have seen the

53:37

effect. In other words, many

53:40

of the things we do are

53:42

truly reliable. They're statistically, you

53:44

can take it to the bank, but the effect are

53:47

not real strong. And that's the way

53:49

I view expressive writing. If

53:52

you do the study with 100 people, you

53:54

will see an effect. If you do

53:56

it with 20 people, you

53:59

might not see it's the effect and

54:02

long-term effects of psychedelics long-term effects

54:04

of many things you just

54:06

don't see that many effects. It

54:10

is helpful because definitely the way that it has

54:12

been put out there I think is

54:15

pretty exciting and even at the beginning of the episode

54:18

when we were talking about and you know

54:20

and it does this and it does that

54:22

and it's really related to this you know

54:24

and we're kind of laughing about it being

54:26

an elixir it is helpful to

54:28

kind of have the moderation

54:30

of yes it can

54:32

do those things and that is true

54:34

statistically but having

54:36

realistic expectations. And this

54:39

is a problem that all

54:41

of us in certainly in science I

54:44

remember in laboratory studies you know

54:46

you do an experiment and everything's

54:49

controlled and you you

54:51

do something and then you measure somebody

54:53

immediately after you've done something and

54:56

there you can get really big

54:58

effects and then you think really

55:00

I'm so cool because now we

55:03

know what causes discrimination and racism

55:05

in the culture and

55:07

then you go and try to do something in

55:09

the culture to see if you can bring about

55:11

changes you know in a

55:13

large group of people over the next

55:15

two or three months and it's almost

55:18

impossible because once you

55:20

go outside the lab all

55:23

this stuff is impinging on people

55:26

that's why when I can do

55:28

an expressive writing stuff with

55:31

50 people or whatever and

55:33

I am finding that people on

55:35

average are going to Dr. Les. I

55:39

did appreciate how powerful that

55:41

was and in fact that's

55:44

the first studies I did I

55:46

did all did at SMU.

55:49

SMU all the students live on campus

55:51

and right there in the middle of

55:53

all the dorms is the Student Health

55:55

Center. Turns out if you're close to

55:57

a student health center you go to the Student Health Center at

55:59

much higher rates than if you have to walk, no,

56:02

half a month. When I

56:04

moved to the University of Texas I did my

56:06

first expressive writing study and students

56:08

hardly ever went to the Student Health Center. Had

56:11

I done that first study at the University of

56:13

Texas it wouldn't have come out because

56:16

people didn't go. That's

56:19

just in talking about bringing back all

56:21

my PhD studies and hammering about

56:23

a fact and I remember in writing a

56:25

dissertation that if you got any of it

56:27

a fact, a point was like you were

56:29

so excited but you're pointing out

56:32

something that's really important. It isn't because it

56:34

has a modest effect that it isn't incredibly

56:36

powerful. It is very easy to miss an

56:38

effect. We don't want to overestimate it making

56:41

an elixir but like you're saying and what

56:43

I love about your studies is that you

56:46

did find an effect and you knew it had meaning.

56:48

It wasn't you were doing this research study to

56:50

find that effect. It was like oh wow

56:53

and then you continue to explore

56:55

it with which is such authentic

56:57

research. You kept going with wow

56:59

now let's look further rather than

57:01

having the presumption of what you wanted

57:03

to see and you're researching it. That's

57:05

a really powerful way to do

57:08

research and we are still saying

57:10

that the effect is powerful. If you

57:12

can look and see a difference in

57:14

the blood draws many

57:16

weeks later you're hitting on something huge but

57:18

there's all sorts of other factors that are

57:21

going to influence and that are going to intrude

57:23

on an outcome variable. So even finding

57:25

a modest effect is actually a

57:28

really big deal in research.

57:30

Yeah and it comes back

57:32

to look it's free.

57:35

This is not a big

57:37

investment and I tell everybody

57:39

this try it. It

57:41

may work and I'm constantly

57:44

amazed talking to members

57:46

of my family and of course when

57:48

I'm having problems don't say you know dad

57:50

you should write about this. It's just the

57:53

ways to help out with me. But they're

57:55

right. That's

57:57

great. Well and before we go could

57:59

you give us any just

58:02

thumbnail on the research on

58:04

our political leaders and language and

58:07

that's another area of interest of

58:09

yours. This computer program,

58:11

Luke, has created a life

58:13

of his own and here's

58:16

a kind of an interesting irony. So

58:19

people in the clinical world know why

58:21

expressive writing. But I

58:23

have even more citations

58:26

from people who do work

58:28

in business, in computer

58:30

science, in all these other areas who

58:32

are interested in the language work that

58:34

I stumbled on. And I became interested

58:36

in by

58:38

analyzing the language of people's, can you

58:40

understand them better? Can you get

58:42

a sense of, you know, are they depression

58:45

prone? Are they neurotic? Are

58:48

they analytic? Are they smart?

58:51

Are they lazy thinkers? Are

58:53

they ruminating? All of

58:55

these different dimensions. So I worked with all

58:58

types of people, everything from law enforcement to

59:00

I was just involved in a

59:03

very interesting case of Kathleen Folling,

59:05

a woman in

59:07

Australia who had four children

59:10

and all of these children died between the age

59:12

of seven months and maybe a year and a

59:16

half. After the last one died, and

59:19

these were sequential, she was

59:22

arrested and accused of murder

59:25

and she had kept a diary the whole time.

59:28

She was in prison for 20 years

59:30

and over the years people in Australia

59:32

were saying, a large increasing

59:34

number of people were saying this

59:37

was a miscarriage of justice and there was

59:39

some evidence that some genetic

59:41

possibilities that they could account for.

59:44

Her husband interestingly refused to have

59:46

his blood measured and

59:48

I was asked to analyze her diaries in

59:50

the years when all this was going on.

59:53

And I went through and I

59:55

approached all my projects which is,

59:57

I don't know if she's guilty or

59:59

not. No, honestly, I don't

1:00:01

care. I'm just going to go through and analyze.

1:00:04

And I've done enough work to know if someone

1:00:07

is going to commit a murder or

1:00:09

going to commit, you know, if there's

1:00:12

any kind of premeditation, I'm

1:00:14

pretty good at seeing if there are changes in

1:00:16

language. I can also see if

1:00:18

somebody is highly unstable. There are all sorts of

1:00:20

things. And there was zero

1:00:23

evidence for any of this. And so I

1:00:25

wrote a report for the court. So

1:00:27

my work together with some

1:00:31

of the other people as well,

1:00:33

she was exonerated, actually just

1:00:36

a couple of months ago. And

1:00:38

so after 20 years in prison, she's

1:00:41

now been exonerated for that. And I

1:00:43

feel really proud of that. You

1:00:46

asked about politicians. What can you tell about

1:00:48

politicians? Well, you were saying

1:00:50

that you could tell when someone's lying.

1:00:53

Yeah. Are

1:00:55

there any just kind of takeaways as

1:00:58

we lead into this election year? You

1:01:00

know, of course, this looks like

1:01:02

it's going to be a rematch. We

1:01:04

already know Trump. We already know Biden.

1:01:06

And their language gives them away. You

1:01:10

know, I could give you, I could show you

1:01:12

their language and you say, yep. In fact, we

1:01:14

just published an article

1:01:16

looking at the leaders of

1:01:18

the United States, Great Britain,

1:01:21

Angela Merkel in Germany, and the groups

1:01:23

that run Switzerland and how they all

1:01:25

talked about COVID in their press conferences.

1:01:28

And it was just fascinating

1:01:31

just reading them. But also you just look

1:01:33

at the language. So Trump,

1:01:35

of course, was in a different world

1:01:37

than all the rest. He

1:01:40

speaks in these broad pronouncements

1:01:42

using positive emotion words.

1:01:45

Everything's great. We're doing a wonderful

1:01:47

job. Everything is great. Nothing

1:01:49

to worry about. Go back to work.

1:01:51

It's all beautiful. But he's not

1:01:53

an analytic thinker. An analytic thinker is somebody

1:01:56

who is thinking in a formal,

1:01:58

logical way. leaders

1:02:00

think in a somewhat analytical way. Trump

1:02:03

has been the least analytical president that the

1:02:05

United States has ever had. He's

1:02:08

a bragger. I was gonna say he's

1:02:10

a storyteller. Reagan

1:02:12

was a storyteller. Trump

1:02:14

is not very good at stories

1:02:16

either. His language is by and

1:02:18

large fairly disorganized, but very

1:02:20

social and very, very simple language.

1:02:24

Biden is actually quite social. He's

1:02:26

also a storyteller, but he's

1:02:28

much higher in analytics than King. And

1:02:31

it's very interesting, somebody like Obama. Obama

1:02:34

was actually quite a storyteller as well.

1:02:36

He was not particularly high in analytic

1:02:38

thinking. He could be, but

1:02:41

not very much. And in fact,

1:02:43

we've been tracking the

1:02:45

language of US presidents going back to

1:02:47

George Washington. And one of our interests

1:02:49

is this analytic thinking. We find analytic

1:02:52

thinking is generally associated with being

1:02:55

logical, smart, et cetera. And

1:02:58

what you see is starting in the 1800s, the

1:03:02

analytic thinking was pretty high. And then

1:03:04

it came to about Teddy

1:03:07

Roosevelt and then Wilson in the end

1:03:09

of World War I. And

1:03:11

all of a sudden, the analytic thinking of

1:03:13

presidents just started dropping and dropping and dropping.

1:03:15

With Trump being

1:03:18

the lowest and the second lowest, actually

1:03:20

was probably Obama. Which

1:03:23

is kind of weird. And

1:03:26

at the same time, we can also measure

1:03:28

clout, the degree in which somebody speaks with

1:03:30

authority. And what you see

1:03:32

in the 1800s, clout was kind of

1:03:34

modest. And then after World

1:03:37

War I, clout started going up and

1:03:39

it's been going up and up and up. And

1:03:43

here we have Trump the highest. Obama

1:03:46

was quite high as well. And

1:03:48

what you see is, I think

1:03:51

it's mass media, that our

1:03:53

leaders have gotten the message that

1:03:56

we have to speak as

1:03:59

though the audience is stupid

1:04:01

but speak with absolute

1:04:03

certainty. That's what's been

1:04:05

happening here. We're also seeing

1:04:08

this to some degree in the UK

1:04:10

and in Canada and Australia as well

1:04:13

and I think it's part of this

1:04:15

media awareness that that

1:04:17

is what makes for a good a

1:04:19

good leader. Speak with certainty, speak with

1:04:22

confidence and we know speaking

1:04:24

with confidence is a scary thing

1:04:27

because most people who speak with confidence are

1:04:29

people that were more likely to trust and

1:04:32

we objectively should trust them

1:04:34

far west. That

1:04:36

was so fascinating and just

1:04:38

to clarify when you're saying low

1:04:41

analytical and high confidence you're

1:04:43

analyzing their language not not

1:04:46

their their personal brilliance or whether

1:04:48

they're smart you're analyzing how they

1:04:51

promote themselves in their speeches and that

1:04:54

and what I recall about that article is some

1:04:56

of the summary is that you now

1:04:58

are more likely to get elected

1:05:01

if you use low analytical

1:05:03

speech and high confidence. So

1:05:05

the more confidence you express in

1:05:08

the simplest terms and

1:05:10

we were just talking and writing about that that

1:05:12

gives our body who can

1:05:14

be very highly activated with all the

1:05:17

stimulation we have around us you

1:05:19

have a high confidence simple words we feel

1:05:21

our body feels calmer we feel more secure

1:05:23

in a way we're given a false sense

1:05:26

of security and from your article you were saying

1:05:28

that those are the ones you can predict just by

1:05:30

their speaking that they're going to be much more likely

1:05:32

to get elected and I thought that

1:05:34

was really fascinating. That's right you know

1:05:36

it's so interesting yes it reflects the

1:05:39

leaders but really it reflects us the

1:05:41

people yeah we're suckers we like Cheetos

1:05:43

we like Cheetos for our food and

1:05:45

we like Cheetos for our leaders. I

1:05:48

love Cheetos. They're

1:05:52

simple they're sweet they're crunchy

1:05:55

and that's how we are

1:05:58

choosing our leaders. That's

1:06:00

really interesting. Being able to look at language

1:06:02

in such detail, you're not

1:06:04

expressing political judgment in this. You literally

1:06:06

are looking at their language and the

1:06:08

predictions of that. So

1:06:11

it's something for us all to be mindful

1:06:13

of, isn't it? Do we really, really want

1:06:15

to be eating Cheetos for the rest of

1:06:17

our lives? That's right. And you look in

1:06:19

the past, and a lot of the presidents

1:06:22

in the past have been really boring, but

1:06:24

they've been safe. Well,

1:06:27

it's good to be getting kind of the message

1:06:29

out about this idea of encouraging

1:06:32

complexity and kind

1:06:34

of staying in difficult

1:06:37

gray areas, being

1:06:39

uncertain and widening our capacity to

1:06:41

kind of hang in with uncertainty,

1:06:43

or as people shift their thinking,

1:06:45

seeing that as a positive thing,

1:06:48

not waffling. I

1:06:50

should also point out, these concerns

1:06:53

are something that I see in

1:06:56

education. I see it in therapy.

1:06:58

I see this with MDs, that

1:07:01

the MD who's the most certain

1:07:04

often is viewed as

1:07:06

most effective, even though they might be screamingly

1:07:09

incompetent. And when

1:07:11

the patients have no knowledge

1:07:14

of the topic, you're going

1:07:16

to believe that the physician says, you have

1:07:18

to do this, or the therapist who says

1:07:20

you have to do this, or the teacher

1:07:22

who says you have to do this, people

1:07:25

are suckers for it. We're suckers

1:07:27

for it because our body feels insecure,

1:07:30

and we don't like that sense of

1:07:32

insecurity, right? We want to feel secure.

1:07:35

And so I love the message that we're

1:07:37

sending is like actually, like the words

1:07:39

of cognition that you were mentioning, they're questioning

1:07:42

words. Do I understand this? What do I

1:07:44

think about this? It takes us out of

1:07:46

a certain, this person is a

1:07:48

jerk, and is mistreating

1:07:50

me to, okay, but wait, what really happened?

1:07:53

And so now I'm going into

1:07:55

my own sense of uncertainty, exploring it, developing more

1:07:57

of a world-wide, of

1:08:00

thinking that tolerates uncertainty, which

1:08:03

is such a deep sign of security

1:08:05

in a way. Yeah, and we

1:08:07

wrapped right back around to our book, right?

1:08:09

It's called Secure Relating, Holding Your Own in

1:08:12

an Insecure World. That was not on purpose

1:08:14

that we landed here at all, but

1:08:16

it's exactly some of the stuff that we

1:08:18

talk about around growing our capacity to

1:08:21

tolerate this difference and to look

1:08:23

at these bigger systems that create

1:08:25

insecurity that then cause us to,

1:08:27

you know, be more

1:08:30

tribal and divide. Go for simple answers.

1:08:32

Yeah, exactly. This

1:08:34

is so fun. Yeah, absolutely. Now,

1:08:37

if people are interested, where might they reach

1:08:39

you? How might they get ahold of you

1:08:42

or find papers about you? They should go

1:08:44

to my website. Which is? Oh,

1:08:46

you know, I don't know. Look

1:08:49

your name up. This is Jacob. Go

1:08:52

to Google. Okay, just a second.

1:08:56

It'll be in our, we'll have it in our

1:08:58

show notes, so no worries. And also we'll post

1:09:00

your papers. That's right. I've got a couple of books that

1:09:03

feel free to buy, but also a lot of

1:09:05

papers that you can just download. That's

1:09:09

great. And you want to say the

1:09:11

books? What are the ones that you want to

1:09:13

do? One of them is The Secret Life of Pronouns,

1:09:16

which talks a lot about the nature of language,

1:09:18

and then opening it up by writing it down.

1:09:22

Opening it up by writing it down. Okay,

1:09:24

that's great. Well, we're going to link all of this. And there

1:09:26

was a, I think the article, the 2016 article,

1:09:28

I think, where that you were reflecting

1:09:32

on some of these other, some

1:09:34

of the studies. We've

1:09:36

got a copy of that. I think it was behind

1:09:38

a paywall. But is that something that we can put

1:09:40

in the? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

1:09:43

Again, go to my website and

1:09:45

you will see the, one of

1:09:47

the links is publications. Go there

1:09:49

and it's probably there. And you

1:09:51

can tie in that URL because anybody can

1:09:53

get it.