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Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. Building on

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decades of professional experience, this podcast

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tackles neurobiology, modern attachment, and more

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in an honest way that's helpful

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now with Dr. Ann Kelly and

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Sue Marriott. So,

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1:39

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Therapist Uncensored.

1:41

I'm Ann Kelly. And I'm Sue Marriott.

1:43

Sue at the end of another year.

1:45

I can't even believe

1:47

it. I know we've been

1:49

doing this since 2016, I think. So we're going

1:52

to be a little retrospective. We're going to just

1:54

take a year in review a

1:56

little bit and talk about some of the things

1:58

that we got out of this. year. You

2:00

know if you've been busy and just haven't

2:02

listened to things that's cool but we're gonna

2:04

kind of recap some lessons learned some of

2:06

our favorite episodes some of your favorite episodes

2:09

and kind of let you know what our interests

2:12

are kind of leaning in the direction of

2:14

and what you can expect for next year.

2:17

You know one thing in reviewing this year just kind

2:20

of I love doing this episode

2:22

because I love going back sometimes it's really

2:24

hard you know we're always pressing forward and pressing forward

2:26

and then one of the things I noticed

2:29

is how deeply we

2:31

focused on the idea of

2:34

taking all those information we're learning and

2:37

really grounding past our own defenses and

2:41

ways to do it. I mean like really proactive ways

2:43

to do it and things to look at and

2:46

focusing a lot on how

2:48

we can securely relate with one another

2:50

taking all this information to be able

2:52

to securely relate which we mean really

2:55

connecting in the moment in

2:58

a way that is safe

3:00

and open and gets us

3:02

out of reactivity and there's

3:04

just this thread all the way through. You know

3:07

we covered tons on attachment we've covered

3:09

tons on relational neuroscience like in different

3:12

years you know we had to like

3:14

first get it all gather it and

3:16

get it all together and I'm really

3:19

proud of our catalog we

3:21

have an incredible catalog of old

3:24

episodes it is so

3:26

rich and what is good about these

3:28

retrospectives like not only is it fun

3:31

to remember that we did them but

3:33

there's so much in each episode that

3:35

you can re-listen even the one that you've already

3:37

heard and get so much out of it but

3:39

the other thing I wanted to mention that I'm

3:41

proud of is we've been revamping our website and

3:44

we're continually adding more resources every

3:48

episode has show notes where we add resources

3:50

so yeah I just wanted to

3:53

kind of put the podcast in context that

3:55

it's not just this audio that we're building

3:57

community we want to be a resource

4:00

sub and really be able to

4:02

like you're saying have it be

4:04

practical and actually help and not

4:06

just be an intellectual exercise. Yes,

4:09

yes and going back through some of

4:12

it to do the recap I got to listen to some of

4:14

the past interviews and what you

4:16

said I listened to Carol George again listening to

4:18

some of these different interviews and

4:20

having already heard them I'm like oh yeah like the

4:22

key to is it helps me integrate it and so

4:25

I was finding the whole experience of getting prep for

4:27

this and we're not going to go into a bunch

4:29

of details of any of them sorry but it helped

4:31

integrate everything that we have been

4:34

talking about it becomes more organized and I like

4:36

what you were saying earlier I think

4:39

this year feels a lot like the

4:42

things we've been really going deep in like

4:44

now it's sort of the organizing let's put it

4:46

to work kind of here which is

4:48

fun nitty-gritty nitty-gritty

4:52

well one of the things we've done was to kind of it

4:54

was a tough series it wasn't as exciting as

4:56

a series on difficult personalities

4:59

etcetera for you referred to

5:01

we did a series on secure

5:03

relating in an insecure world

5:07

and we tapped into and that's what kind

5:09

of even and I don't think

5:11

we had titled our book yet no

5:13

and I was gonna say that I

5:15

realized because we titled that series in

5:17

an insecure world and that I think

5:20

was part of how we started to title our book

5:22

it's that we were really talking about secure relating

5:24

in this active as a verb

5:26

in our podcast and I

5:29

don't think we had titled our book

5:31

we changed it to holding your own

5:33

an insecure world rather than secure relating

5:35

an insecure world and then

5:37

title the book secure relating because that's as

5:39

we integrate all this information that's what we're

5:41

trying to use it for that's what we're trying to do

5:43

so we did that series which

5:46

was I say it was a hard series

5:48

because what we were talking about is what

5:50

is making the world feel and experience

5:52

so much insecurity around

5:55

us and we covered really tough topics

5:57

that are not fun totally and I

5:59

love like we're zooming out a

6:01

little bit and not just looking at

6:03

individual relationships, but looking at

6:06

systems and structures that impact

6:08

our sense of safety. It impacts us

6:10

on a biological,

6:12

physiological, psychological

6:14

level in our development. So that

6:16

series that you're referring to is

6:19

just scratching the surface on that.

6:22

But yeah, it was definitely less

6:24

enjoyable than the Difficult

6:26

Personality series, which is kind

6:28

of silly that Difficult Personalities is more enjoyable because

6:30

it gets so big that it's hard to talk about when

6:33

we're talking about systems that create insecurity. Well,

6:35

and it's hard to like when we're talking

6:38

about difficult relationships and the problems we're having

6:40

every day with that person in our household

6:42

or at work or children,

6:44

it's so directly applicable to our

6:47

everyday lives. We tend to be

6:49

more hungry for that information, which

6:51

is wonderful. But what

6:53

we did in that series is we cover the

6:56

topics that we like to dissociate from, distance

6:58

from, or that completely overwhelm

7:00

us. So what were

7:03

your favorite ones from the series? Well,

7:05

we covered climate change, racial tensions,

7:08

we covered experiences about poverty

7:11

and systemic inequities.

7:14

So that's what I mean about like how difficult that

7:16

was. We don't want to sit around all the

7:18

time and talk about those topics because they're

7:20

hard. Right, well I want to

7:23

name names, right? So yes, there

7:25

was one on that I really

7:27

appreciated on intergenerational trauma with

7:30

Linda Tai and she

7:32

is fantastic somatic therapist.

7:35

That was fantastic. There was one on

7:37

racial trauma, two on racial trauma with

7:40

Glaseria Perez and Deborah

7:42

Chapman Finley. And they were so wonderful.

7:44

You just have to listen to them and I get to

7:47

have, I wasn't part of those interviews, but

7:49

I had to have deep conversations with them

7:51

later related to the book

7:53

and I could not tell you how much I enjoyed connecting

7:55

with them. Those are great episodes. Yep, and

7:57

to keep your ear out because I think that

7:59

they... We'll be doing more things which

8:01

is very cool and we did two on climate,

8:04

but it was not about climate But it was

8:06

more about the psychological impact of it, right?

8:08

Like we didn't talk about like a let's solve

8:11

climate We weren't there to like solve the

8:13

climate crisis But like if we don't

8:15

talk about it if we get it back into the

8:17

secure relating concept It's like we

8:19

have to be able to manage all the

8:21

parts of us that want to run away

8:23

and dissociate and ignore and pretend It didn't

8:25

happen or yell and get mad but not

8:28

be productive and

8:30

shame people etc And

8:32

yeah, we had a conversation with

8:34

Anna Graybill We talked about

8:37

just how to have these hard conversations But

8:39

also how to get past your own resistance

8:41

the morning that you have to go through

8:43

but the focus was getting past your resistance

8:45

to having the deep conversations and That's

8:49

the part of secure relating is we don't

8:51

have it We can't join collectively to make

8:53

a difference to relate to one another and

8:55

then we also did one That was very

8:57

special to us It was too totally

8:59

special because we've had a lot of

9:02

conflict in our own family from the

9:04

youth perspective of climate and how seriously

9:06

they've taken it and how it's really

9:08

changed the Trajectory of some of

9:10

our kids lives like whether or not they stayed

9:12

in school and things like that So

9:15

really tough conversation. So Mason Marriott

9:17

Voss who is our oldest?

9:19

Yes, just so incredibly

9:22

proud of him and that was a very

9:25

special one and This

9:27

isn't just nepotism of you know He

9:29

actually has a lot to add to

9:31

the conversation super smart and challenging Well

9:34

and in that episode just for the fun

9:36

of it, you kind of get a really

9:38

sneak behind the view information

9:41

about just Imagining doing the dishes

9:43

in an intergenerational way having these

9:45

conversations so you can relate to

9:47

possibly having conversations with your own

9:49

kids your adult kids your teenage

9:51

kids Or just your

9:53

family members and trying to have these conversations and

9:55

how activating they are So yeah,

9:57

we have some real behind the scenes vulnerable

10:00

conversation about what would happen in our

10:02

own family and how we got through

10:04

it. So it's an intergenerational conversation and how

10:06

important it is to have it. Well

10:09

and the point being less about sort of a focus

10:11

on us and more of encouraging

10:13

you to stay engaged even with people

10:15

that you disagree with or that

10:18

are doing things that are particularly scary for

10:20

you or morally what

10:22

you don't understand or don't agree

10:25

with just how to stay connected. So what

10:27

else? What are the other ones that you liked? Well then

10:29

we ended that series which I really liked ending

10:31

the series on that positive note that always

10:33

hits me because we ended that series with

10:35

one of my favorite episodes I think of

10:37

the year and that was with Nacker Keltner.

10:39

Talking about awe. That

10:41

was one of my favorites. I just loved

10:43

interviewing him reading his book. Because

10:46

it was way up there in some of the

10:48

favorites from an interview standpoint and from a content

10:50

standpoint we are putting

10:52

together another reading pod on

10:55

the book starting in early January of

10:57

2024 depending on when you're hearing this

10:59

episode. And just a quick

11:01

thing about that is that there are small

11:04

reading groups. It's a wonderful way to get

11:06

yourself to read a book that you've been meaning

11:08

to read but it's also a great way to

11:10

build community and to study and learn together and

11:12

be able to apply the material more deeply and

11:15

more personally in your life. So

11:17

we hope to when we look ahead post

11:19

more of those including potentially

11:21

if there's enough interest. The only way these

11:24

work is if there's enough energy and interest

11:26

of people signing up. So we can just

11:28

offer. So you guys are

11:30

going to make it where that we actually get

11:32

to deliver it. But if there's enough interest in

11:34

doing a series even of reading a reading

11:36

pod on some of these bigger

11:39

questions about equity, about

11:42

decolonizing mental health, about

11:45

you know these wider perspective system differences

11:47

and kind of getting out of just

11:49

the Western model of mental health and

11:51

learning more widely. Those are all things

11:53

I'm very very interested in you

11:56

know slowly being in the process

11:58

of expanding. out of

12:00

what we think is normal. And I used to

12:02

call it the traditional way that

12:05

we're taught therapy. And that's not at

12:07

all accurate because we've left

12:09

the traditional and the

12:11

indigenous and some of these natural

12:14

knowledge bases. So I

12:17

don't even like to use the term like traditional

12:19

mental health. It's not true. It's Western mental health.

12:21

So anyway, that is a possibility. So if you're

12:24

interested in that, stay tuned. Let us know. Send

12:26

us a note. You can always reach us at

12:28

info at Therapists and Censored. OK, what else? What

12:30

were some of your other ones? Before we

12:32

jump to what else, what your meaning is

12:35

if you're interested, we'd like to help form

12:37

deeper conversations and deeper

12:39

networking. So yeah, if you are interested

12:41

in kind of forming sort of groups

12:43

that get together and are able to, through

12:46

a reading pot or a discussion group, have

12:48

deeper conversations on these systemic issues. That's our

12:50

excitement for this next year, for sure. Yeah.

12:53

And actually, even doing that is

12:55

another example of us really trying

12:57

to walk the walk.

13:00

And if we are wanting to encourage

13:02

security and secure, like

13:04

learning how to hold onto ourselves and stay

13:06

in a secure state of mind, whatever's going

13:08

on around us, and to be connected, then

13:11

I think these reading pods are another example

13:13

of us trying to get nitty gritty and

13:15

actually do it, trying to

13:17

provide opportunities for you to meet

13:19

your podcast listener neighbor in another

13:21

state or in another country and

13:24

come together with these like-minded people. So I

13:26

think that's cool. Are we

13:28

like tooting our own horns too much? It

13:31

sounds like it a little bit in this. You know what makes

13:33

me so mad about that? Women have to be

13:35

worried about that. If we were

13:37

two dudes doing the podcast, do

13:39

you ever hear men worried? People

13:42

that are socialized as men are not

13:44

socialized to worry about is their

13:47

voice taking up too much space or are

13:49

they drawing too much attention to themselves? Would

13:51

you agree with that? I would totally agree

13:53

with that. Yeah. So even though I feel

13:55

it and I said it, it's like I hate that I feel it

13:57

and I hate that I said it. I know you get that. I

14:00

think also the truth of the matter

14:02

is what we're tooting, to be honest

14:04

with you, is our passion about these

14:06

subjects and getting people involved more than,

14:08

you know what I mean? It's not us. We're

14:10

pointing to the idea. Like

14:12

even doing a series on really hard

14:15

topics like racial

14:17

trauma and intergenerational

14:20

trauma and climate, major

14:23

part of our goal is for

14:25

all of us to be able

14:27

to have these conversations with more

14:29

self-insight, more reflection

14:31

and more connection so

14:34

that we can move into more

14:36

productivity together. So that's the part about

14:38

relating more. We have to move more

14:40

productively and if we're all activated and

14:42

pushing it down, it's not helping

14:44

us, right? It's not helping us feel

14:46

more secure ourselves for sure. We just

14:48

go into all those different kind of

14:51

avoidance tactics which is for

14:53

everyone different eating, drinking. So

14:56

this is like get to know thyself and thy

14:58

neighbor on a much deeper level so that

15:00

we can have more thorough connections. So the

15:02

reading paths are an avenue to do the

15:04

connection. The work is about being able to

15:06

connect with anyone around you in a

15:09

more insightful way and

15:11

a less defended way where you don't recognize it.

15:14

Actually we did two episodes on dreams

15:17

and one of the reasons we did that is

15:19

like how do you get to your unconscious? How

15:22

do you get to that part where you're kind

15:24

of pushing it out and said nothing

15:26

to see here and you don't let

15:28

it come into your everyday awareness? And

15:30

so we did two episodes on how

15:32

do we use it in our therapy practices and how

15:34

do we view dreams? Totally. Love that.

15:37

It just makes me smile thinking about

15:39

it actually. I mean listening to my

15:41

dreams have literally changed the course of

15:43

my life and others that I know.

15:45

Yeah, that was fun. And then you interviewed

15:47

a Jungian therapist I believe. Is that right?

15:50

Two Jungian therapists. Their co-host on

15:52

this Jungian Life podcast which if you

15:54

haven't checked that podcast out it's really

15:57

really great. It's Elisa

15:59

Marchiano. Deborah Stewart and

16:01

that's episode 201. They

16:03

talked about interpreting dreams through the union lens. And I

16:05

felt like I got a lot out of that one.

16:08

My own therapist is union therapist. And

16:12

I'm a real advocate for like looking

16:14

into our collective unconscious, how we all

16:16

connected and we're unaware of it. And

16:18

the thing that they talked about dreams

16:20

is it's not just looking at what

16:22

you're personally struggling with in your current

16:24

and everyday environment, but it's

16:27

like a path forward. One

16:29

of the quotes is dreams as a birthplace

16:31

of new ideas. So it's not

16:33

just looking at what you're struggling with, but

16:36

it is by getting in touch with your

16:38

unconscious that dreams give you

16:41

that avenue to be more of a full

16:43

person of a path forward. And I felt

16:45

like they did this really great deep

16:48

dive into it that I gained a lot out of

16:50

it. Even though I've been doing dream work for a

16:52

long time, I felt like I had some experiences in

16:54

that. They also, it's kind of fun because they talk

16:56

about symbols and how they interpret

16:58

symbols generally. And in their podcast, you can like

17:00

throw in a dream and they're analyzing from more

17:02

of a symbolic gesture. Like that was a lot

17:05

of fun. Every single

17:07

time I do an interview, I learn so much. And

17:11

it is such a great

17:13

way for us to keep our pencils sharpened

17:15

or our crayons sharpened or whatever. You

17:18

all know what I mean? Just listen to what I mean, not

17:21

what I'm saying. But

17:23

yeah, it is such a privilege to be able to

17:25

sit with some of these really brilliant people. What

17:28

are the other ones that came to mind? Well,

17:30

we did multiple ones on attachment, our

17:32

true and core cells. You and I

17:35

did a few of them. So we did, which I think it

17:37

was good. We did a couple on

17:39

like back to the basics of attachment.

17:42

We just had a great discussion with one of our

17:44

Patreon members. We just got to do a meet

17:46

and greet because she's a Patreon member. And

17:49

I found out that she keeps

17:51

referring her students to think episode five for

17:53

the back to the back. And I was

17:55

horrified. I'm like, oh my God, I can't

17:57

even imagine. I mean, don't get me wrong.

18:00

it. It's wonderful that something back

18:02

that far is providing meaning to her students,

18:05

but I was glad to remember that we did

18:07

a back to the basics. I think that was like in

18:09

episode 208, we did a back to basis on attachment, and

18:12

then we did one where we're talking about what we're

18:14

talking about now. What's the difference between attachment, having

18:17

secure attachment, and having a

18:19

secure state of mind? And

18:22

I think that's an important distinction that we keep articulating

18:24

more and more and more. We do in

18:26

our book, but we do I think throughout

18:28

the episodes this year. And you also

18:30

interviewed Carol George, which was just

18:33

a phenomenal interview. That was your

18:35

second interview with her, I think? Yes, it

18:37

was. You know, the first one it was

18:39

so dense that you and I got on

18:41

afterwards and did a whole episode about that

18:43

interview. Yeah. Well again, that's the density of

18:45

it. And a term that people

18:47

have repeated that, and it was what part of

18:49

why I reached out to her, is this idea

18:52

of failed mourning. And so

18:54

we went into depth about that. Yeah,

18:56

she's just delightful and wonderful and available

18:59

and interested and continuing

19:01

to teach. Well, yeah, I

19:03

like the distinction when y'all talked about

19:05

the failed mourning connected to dismissing

19:07

attachment and the disconnection. I got

19:10

the most out of when she talked

19:12

about preoccupation with personal suffering. Say a little

19:14

bit of what you got out of that

19:17

from her. I actually got a little bit

19:19

confused because it was also related to dismissing

19:22

attachment, not just preoccupation. Well, that's one of the

19:24

fun things, right? Is that we can go so

19:26

deep and then when you come out of it

19:28

you're like, no, what did I say? But

19:31

preoccupation with personal suffering is kind of just

19:33

the sense of always being

19:35

in loss, in nostalgia.

19:37

She talks a lot about nostalgia.

19:40

It's a sign of insecurity, like

19:42

not wistfulness and enjoying something more,

19:44

but it's kind of like you're

19:47

orienting towards the past. Like it's

19:49

a grief moment and of course,

19:51

fine and passing, but some people

19:54

are more oriented towards disappointment or

19:56

like these separations that then

19:58

keeps them in a state of The morning

20:00

like. I guess the

20:02

idea is it you don't then continue

20:05

your process of grieving the loss of

20:07

said you hold onto the loss by

20:09

holding on to like the impact on

20:11

you and away if not processing and

20:13

actually. That. That way of defending

20:15

right. It's a way of blocking the threats

20:17

or keeps us stock and then the other

20:20

one with them fell morning. same thing me

20:22

who does not apply to in some ways,

20:24

but you know when we've had to. Pull.

20:26

Up our boots and keep on going

20:28

or weren't signaled that something was important

20:31

when it really was. So we follow

20:33

along with the family and like oh

20:35

you know, Mammoths Death. Doesn't. Matter?

20:37

Are you just? Oh, you're sad here.

20:39

Let me distract you so that you're

20:42

not sad those kinds of things Then

20:44

what it means is that we carry

20:46

these little pockets of unresolved loss at

20:48

times. and that's what some of her

20:50

research is showing. She has a great

20:52

new book and this will be linked

20:54

as he discovered this episode. Show Notes:

20:57

we will give hyperlinks to somebody said

20:59

make it real easy for you. So

21:02

episode number is to ten.

21:04

For Carol George. And the other

21:07

thing I'm proud of is that you can

21:09

go to the website. Their. Person sensor

21:11

to comms and in his all search bar

21:13

and you can put in whatever you want

21:15

you to put Carol George it'll come up

21:17

l three interviews will come up the first

21:20

one hours and than hers again or if

21:22

you're interested an. Internal family

21:24

systems but that in front Anderson. That was

21:26

a great interview. So many think so. The

21:28

thing you're interested in to see, just poke

21:30

around and see if we've done one like

21:33

look into our or catalog the police like

21:35

and was saying please do forgive our early

21:37

audio and our early. Editing:

21:39

And us are just friends. Think of something

21:41

She said this, Oh a thing that was

21:43

fun. I also found. Out is how

21:45

often podcast are being used in

21:47

graduate programs are in even undergraduate

21:50

programs been assigned both actually graduate

21:52

undergraduate been assigned podcast for individuals

21:54

from to learn about different topics.

21:56

That exciting to me to hear

21:58

that it's a good. Avenue and

22:01

that reminds me we have done more replays this

22:03

year and Part of

22:05

the reason that we did more replays this year than

22:07

we have before and it wasn't a ton But it

22:09

was just a little bit more than we typically do

22:12

there was two things one is we were totally

22:15

head down working on the book and Fill

22:17

the value of that and I really

22:20

happy that we did that like it's important to have

22:22

it in a different medium But

22:25

also Ann and I we don't want to just

22:27

create content for the sake of creating content When

22:30

we come on we want to have something

22:32

to add or something to contribute or something

22:34

You know significant to react to or to

22:36

process or to explore We're

22:39

resisting just like oh god. We got to come up

22:41

with something to record. We don't want to do that

22:43

to you so we've kind of Shifted

22:46

a little bit on thinking of like the

22:48

catalog is so dense and so good and

22:51

so many people tell us that they listen To an

22:53

episode over and over and over Also,

22:55

it took pressure off of us to

22:57

be honest But it began to

22:59

feel performative like oh we have to create

23:01

something and I didn't like that And

23:03

I thought that you all would

23:05

probably appreciate that When

23:08

we come together, you know what I mean? We're gonna

23:10

really focus on quality content. Did you have

23:12

any thoughts about that? It's taking a

23:14

little bit of pressure off and I love that

23:16

so I love that you're saying that and it

23:18

actually it's exciting I mean not that we weren't

23:20

already doing that I think we always

23:22

kind of felt but that we were holding a sense

23:25

that we were letting everybody down if it

23:28

wasn't a content every single two weeks and

23:31

If this was all we were doing that would be

23:33

great, but we have these other endeavors and so we

23:35

want to have something Really

23:37

important to say before you put the mic on

23:39

cuz we don't want to waste anybody's time This is still a

23:41

hobby for us. We're working our little

23:43

tails off and that was it I think and you and

23:45

I both we kind of carry the

23:47

audience in a way that isn't true of like

23:50

Yeah, like you said that we don't want to

23:52

disappoint them or we don't know

23:54

It looked like we're fluffing around when what

23:56

I really believe is that they would be

23:58

cheering us to like yah Girls, go

24:00

take a break. Go have

24:02

fun in Portugal, which we did. I

24:05

know that we work really, really,

24:07

really hard and we produce a lot, and

24:09

that we would absolutely have the support of

24:11

people saying, take your time. Model

24:13

for us what self-care looks

24:15

like. So we had to kind of settle ourselves

24:17

down to be able to do that. But

24:20

then that's our secure relating journey, right? We want

24:22

to have a secure attachment to our audience, like

24:25

the audience that we carry inside us, which

24:28

isn't necessarily you listening or the

24:30

real people. So if

24:32

my internalized audience is

24:34

supportive and encouraging, that helps

24:36

me. So it doesn't really matter

24:38

what you think, listener. But

24:41

how I'm going to address that very much.

24:43

But how I'm going to try to carry

24:45

you is in a more secure way and

24:47

not anxious about letting you down. Great.

24:50

Because that just kind of grounds you to

24:52

be your best self rather than being preoccupied

24:55

with the idea that the audience

24:57

out there is looking for things to critique negatively

24:59

instead, just trying to get the most that they

25:01

can get out of what we have to offer.

25:03

And that they're, I mean, we just

25:05

have a great positive audience anyway. So by the way,

25:08

I love it. All

25:18

right. Let's talk about our sponsor, ZocDoc.

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and it's CozyC-O-Z-Y cozyearth.com/TU

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so that you get that

27:34

35% discount. So you were mentioning

27:38

that the poverty one you're talking about is Sharon Lambert.

27:40

So we did replay that one and again we only

27:43

picked the replays of the ones that really stood out

27:45

or that were real popular. You know we know that

27:47

you would love again. I'm sorry

27:49

that that one applied to kind of

27:51

our theme for the systems. Really looking

27:54

at systems and how poverty

27:56

is in and of itself traumatic.

27:59

It's just It's an

28:01

experience. A biopsychosocial, right, like a

28:03

physiological impact and not to

28:05

put labels on people, like to really look at

28:07

the system, not just to look at the individual,

28:09

which I love. But one

28:12

of the really neat takeaways from that

28:14

particular one was that she had done

28:16

research on whether or

28:18

not podcasts help, like mental health podcasts,

28:20

do they matter? And she

28:22

actually got data showing that

28:24

they do matter and they make

28:26

a difference, but especially they make

28:28

a difference in

28:31

under-resourced areas, which was

28:33

just near and dear to

28:35

our hearts because part of our

28:37

passion is making all of this

28:39

incredible science and application of these

28:41

ideas accessible widely all around

28:44

the world. And I

28:46

want to mention, we're at basically 9

28:48

million downloads and have been

28:50

heard in almost every country in the world. So

28:53

to me, it's like, one,

28:55

I would have never, ever, ever imagined

28:57

having that kind of platform ever.

28:59

Would you? No, no, right?

29:01

Forty people in a room and I'm happy.

29:04

Right. I remember when we got our

29:06

first 200 downloads, we were so excited. Right.

29:09

But I just mentioned that in the sense that you

29:11

are, as a listener, you are part of

29:14

a bigger movement and people are tuning in.

29:17

And again, not to us, but to

29:19

these ideas of building security and creating

29:21

secure ripples wherever you are and really

29:23

kind of pushing one another and you

29:25

all pushing us, us pushing you, the

29:28

ideas pushing us all to

29:30

work on learning to regulate

29:32

ourselves and stay in our

29:34

ventral vagal connected heart, mind,

29:36

full body, and to

29:38

be able to help others do the same, both

29:40

things. So to me,

29:42

that is the most meaningful, exciting,

29:44

incredible thing that we're all in

29:46

it together. And so you listener, wherever you're listening

29:49

from, there are other people listening and being

29:52

moved to kind of do

29:54

their own work as well. You're

29:56

not alone. And it helps

29:59

you to imagine. like we're

30:01

talking about imagining our audience out there

30:03

as being supportive and caring and wanting

30:05

our rest and it's

30:07

also sending the message to you

30:10

listeners out there who is your imagined

30:12

audience. Everyone carries with them sometimes

30:14

an imagined audience. They think they're gonna think

30:16

and sometimes it's really interesting to go who

30:19

is that and we can

30:21

build resentments through our audience and we

30:23

can build connections and how we imagine

30:25

our audience to be. Right

30:28

now you're talking about the listeners audience

30:30

whoever that is. Whoever that is that

30:32

is in your head that is your

30:34

natural audience. Can you imagine them more

30:36

positively? Can you imagine them caring? And

30:39

you know we're also really really

30:41

trying to cross the level of divisiveness that's

30:43

been out there in our community and I

30:45

know that's been our real passion through this

30:47

is helping people connect and they relate with

30:50

themselves with their

30:52

relationships but also across cultures

30:54

and systems and be motivated

30:56

to be connected. So if

31:00

you can imagine the audience that

31:02

you are even angry at

31:04

or that you're fighting against if

31:07

you can imagine them in a

31:09

less critical more connecting way in

31:11

order to then still have

31:13

really deep challenging hard conversations. That's

31:16

the goal and if you're out there listening

31:18

like you're saying Sue you're part

31:21

of a group that wants to do that because

31:23

people don't stay on this podcast if

31:26

they're wanting to stay. It's one thing I love about

31:28

thinking about our listeners when I think about the audience

31:30

I think people don't tune into this if

31:32

they want to stay in their set fixed place

31:34

because if you want to stay there why

31:37

would you listen like you're not listening if you're like you

31:39

know I like I'm just gonna stay exactly I am and

31:41

I gotta you know focus on the world

31:43

exactly and you're there because you want to grow

31:46

yourself and look

31:48

at your own defenses. So that's the clip when we're

31:50

speaking out there that's the audience and that's the part

31:52

of what you're connected to when we talk about the

31:54

reach. It's like imagining lots of people

31:57

out there wanting to relate more securely

31:59

with one another. and that

32:01

can really change that internal narrative

32:03

story that can be, nothing's

32:06

going to change, the world sucks, we all

32:08

suck. When we start saying that, like wait,

32:10

no, there's a lot of people in this

32:12

very positive way wanting to reach out

32:14

and connect in different cultures across

32:17

the world. And what do you think

32:19

about the difference? Like what's the difference

32:21

between the audience versus like just negative

32:23

self-talk in general? Well

32:25

I guess what you're saying is like is

32:27

the audience, the negative self-talk coming from

32:29

out there, they are going to

32:31

be judging me negatively? We're

32:34

projecting the outside world as being

32:36

a critical? No, what

32:38

I mean is you were just challenging

32:41

and inviting the listeners to consider their

32:43

own internalized audience. Yes. Right?

32:45

So I'm talking about that. Our internalized audience, the

32:47

quickest example that came to my mind was like

32:49

in graduate school or actually as a new, as

32:52

a baby therapist and how much

32:54

time I spent like worrying about the board. Oh

32:58

yeah. Or worried about my supervision. And

33:00

so I'm sitting with a client but

33:03

largely holding in mind like

33:05

making sure I don't get in trouble. You

33:08

know what I mean? Like that's an actual

33:10

audience that isn't even real but it's the

33:12

way that I'm relating to it. And so

33:14

very early on as I kind of got

33:17

older in my practice and stuff and started helping

33:19

newer therapists and doing consultation, I was one of

33:21

the first things is I would really help them

33:24

get the board out of their brain and

33:26

really be in the room with

33:28

the person because that's really what the actual

33:31

board, whatever that it means, that's what they

33:33

want is they want quality care. And so

33:35

the best way to have quality care is

33:37

get them out of there. You're not practicing

33:39

to them. You're being with

33:41

your person. And so that's to me an

33:43

example of like it isn't a real person

33:45

but it's not exactly my negative

33:47

self-talk. Like I suck as a therapist or something

33:49

like that. It's not exactly that. So

33:52

I guess in answering my own question a little

33:54

bit, it's like there is something a little different

33:56

between kind of an imagined

33:58

audience and negative self-talk. Absolutely.

34:01

Oh, I think you're spot-on and

34:04

you can kind of recognize

34:06

where the fear is coming from. Like I

34:08

love your example. I was thinking I related

34:10

to that where some people is like,

34:12

oh if I do this I'm gonna get sued. I'm

34:15

gonna get sued. Right, exactly. So we have the externalized

34:17

fear base. Somebody's gonna come get me

34:19

audience or somebody's gonna come judge me. My

34:22

CEO is always judging me. So it's

34:24

that projected thing where then you're reacting to

34:27

that and getting back into

34:29

yourself like a weight. Like shifting that

34:31

audience to what's really important is grounding

34:34

ourselves in that moment in this room. That's

34:36

hard to do. Mm-hmm. And

34:38

then the difference between this idea of having a

34:40

balcony of people that are

34:42

in your audience but they're cheering you

34:45

on. They're saying you can

34:47

do it. You know and I've sometimes

34:49

have like envisioned like who would be

34:51

my balcony people and like almost kind

34:53

of cultivating and again a secure

34:56

audience. Like that's who I want

34:58

to tune into. I don't want to tune into the basement. You know

35:00

in the gremlins and the creepy

35:02

monsters they're in there just like trying to

35:04

pull me down. Like the balcony.

35:07

I think of them as

35:09

like more accurate representation. Like

35:12

they're seeing me mess up but it's like that's fine that

35:14

you messed up. No I think that's

35:16

really key because it's like we don't always have

35:18

to have and we do that I do that

35:20

with the audience here with you guys out there.

35:23

Our real live audience right. We could think

35:25

about you guys so much that we

35:28

aren't in ourselves or we can connect

35:30

enough with you to go okay that's

35:32

why we call it therapists uncensored. I think we've

35:34

acknowledged we don't go back and review

35:37

these. We don't go back and go oh

35:39

my god who said that let's take it.

35:41

I mean hopefully Jack takes a little bit

35:43

of our arms out you know. But we

35:45

fairly are uncensored. So with that what we

35:48

have to tolerate in there in

35:51

this audience dialogue is that some audience

35:53

that you guys out there are gonna

35:55

have critical thoughts about something I've said

35:57

today or something Sue said today or your

36:00

going to have an agreement. So

36:02

the resilient part is like tolerating,

36:04

you can have a negative thought

36:06

and still find value in

36:09

me and us. And so it's having that

36:11

audience out there doesn't always have to be

36:13

cheering us on. It could also be thinking,

36:15

you know, I have a

36:17

personal judgment of what you just said, but

36:19

can you have somebody or have a critical

36:21

thought or I mean, like a criticism, like

36:23

a healthy criticism of like, you know, but

36:25

wait, I don't agree. Right.

36:28

And you can hold that and still find your own

36:30

value. The great question I asked was like, you said

36:32

that it's not as easy as we make it sound.

36:34

So what if somebody has that negative thought, but I

36:36

do invite and I do do that personally. I'm like,

36:38

okay, so let's say that that is true. Can

36:41

I handle that? Would it be okay?

36:43

And letting yourself not just stop with

36:45

the audience, I think we get stuck

36:47

with the audience, whether like you mentioned

36:49

the internal audience of our self flagellation

36:51

or the external audience echo chamber of

36:54

the therapist in Austin, having judgments or

36:56

whatever that is coming back into,

36:58

okay, what the grounding really is. I'm okay.

37:00

Even if that's true, still a whole valued

37:02

person and people can have it. And it's

37:05

more of a resilient way to use that

37:07

audience. I love it because

37:09

the audience is an internalized voice.

37:11

So really, we're talking about developing

37:13

and cultivating a secure relationship with

37:15

yourself. And

37:18

I love the idea of no matter where you

37:20

are, and even like if you listen to this

37:22

a year from now, we

37:24

could still be connecting, you know what

37:26

I'm saying? Like across the airwaves, like

37:29

it still matters. Like if we can evoke

37:31

in you the very

37:33

true feeling of it that we care that you're doing

37:35

this and that we respect you and that we're cheering

37:37

you on and that you don't have to be perfect.

37:39

Those are all going to still be true no matter

37:42

when you listen to this. And

37:44

how cool to think of this

37:46

asynchronous, incredible

37:48

connection. And if we can

37:51

do this, like there's so many things in your own

37:53

world, if you just kind of look around, oh, that

37:55

was the other thing I was going to say when you

37:57

mentioned the Docker I'm

38:00

sorry I always get that wrong. But

38:02

one of his points was that when we were in

38:05

a secure state of mind that we evoke that in

38:07

others. So the work that you're doing

38:09

right now on yourself, oxygen mask

38:11

on you, top down thinking

38:13

for you around like what do you need

38:15

versus trying to change the

38:17

world to make you more comfortable from

38:21

that perspective, then you really

38:23

are changing the world because when we

38:25

are in our ventral vagal connected state,

38:28

we're more generous, we're less prejudice, we

38:31

evoke kindness and we give kindness. So

38:34

another point about where we're going is that

38:36

you can't be secure by yourself. You can't

38:38

be secure as an island. This isn't about

38:41

like I'm good. Okay. This

38:43

is about security has to

38:45

be that we elicit

38:48

it, we grow it in ourselves and others.

38:51

And that means whole communities, they get

38:54

pressed down from oppressive systems

38:56

and histories and

38:58

institutions that literally hold

39:00

people back, that we have

39:02

to care about that. We have to be a part of resisting

39:05

that and making change and making people more

39:07

conscious of it and doing our

39:09

own work about uncovering some of

39:11

the ways that we have been, that it's embedded in

39:13

us still. So security, when

39:15

we talk about security relating, it's always going to be,

39:17

this isn't just go be

39:20

happy. This is do the

39:22

work to look at your demons

39:24

and get free to be actually

39:26

present in the moment and then

39:29

get busy helping others do

39:32

the same, lifting people up. I

39:34

think that's what I said. My

39:36

turn. Well,

39:39

I think you kind of wrapped it up in a great organized

39:42

way about kind of where we see this next

39:44

year going. Absolutely. And it

39:47

makes me think of the book, like that's the

39:49

passion that we brought to the book. And

39:52

there's going to be lots of opportunities this next year. We're going

39:54

to be traveling a little more. We're going to be doing meetups

39:57

in different cities, by the

39:59

way. Should we mention it now? Have

40:01

we already done the announcement? What

40:03

about May? Uh-huh. I

40:06

don't remember when we did a cap and not wasn't.

40:09

All right. Well, okay. So for those of you,

40:11

if we've already announced it publicly, then that's cool.

40:13

But if not, then you're hearing it for the

40:15

first time, which is that we are, along with

40:17

Austin and Connection, going to be having

40:19

a live weekend with Ann

40:21

and I in May. It's

40:23

May 3rd and 4th. Tons

40:25

of activities to do and fun, both

40:28

for the general public and

40:30

for folks that are more into it and want

40:32

an advanced training. So we're going to do an

40:34

advanced all-day workshop. Yeah,

40:36

the training itself is going to be one

40:39

day. That's right. On the

40:41

4th. That's right. Yeah. And

40:44

it's going to be great. We're going to be planning it all

40:46

year. It's going to be really fun. And

40:48

people have asked before, hey, should I fly in for this?

40:50

Like when we did a little meetup. And I'm like, no,

40:52

that's not the one to do that on. This

40:55

one, if anybody's interested in

40:57

traveling, we're going to have a little

40:59

host committee that's going to help welcome you. There's

41:02

going to be side events. And

41:04

this would be the one to do. So yay. I'm

41:07

super excited about it. And it's going

41:09

to be different than other conferences. Anyway, we'll say

41:11

more about that as it comes. But this is

41:14

a save the date, May 3rd, 4th. Also

41:17

I want to mention, again, related to this

41:19

idea of promoting security wherever you are, if

41:22

you are in a community where you have access

41:24

to enough of a community, whether it be a

41:26

therapist community or what have you, Ann and

41:29

I are going to be doing some traveling.

41:32

So if you could arrange a meetup with

41:34

enough people, we might be able to swing

41:36

by and do an

41:38

event, whether it be a talk or just

41:40

meet and greet or what have you. So

41:42

think about that. And if you can get

41:45

that going, we want to support you

41:47

in doing that because that's going to build relationships in

41:49

your community. And we would like to be a part of

41:51

that. Yep. It's all

41:53

about community building. That's what's really, really important.

41:55

That's the goal is we want people

41:57

out there meeting one another. So if we come in and we

41:59

can. help form a connection like we

42:02

did in the meetups, that's

42:04

what would be really really invigorating

42:06

and exciting for us. And again,

42:08

it's connections around forming networks of

42:11

people who want to do and talk

42:13

and be pushing themselves.

42:17

Exactly. And this is also especially

42:19

true, like one of the dreams in my mind

42:21

is part of these

42:23

little networks can really be specifically the

42:26

people that have been pushed out and

42:28

marginalized. So whether they be BIPOC led,

42:31

whether they be trans, queer,

42:33

whether they be disability,

42:35

it doesn't matter. It's like anybody that's been

42:37

pushed out. A group of

42:39

women who want to join and feel

42:42

empowered. That's right. Can we

42:44

say again for a minute how cool it is

42:46

that we are still ranked in the top

42:48

10 Apple podcasts for

42:51

social science as two women teaching.

42:54

You know, normally for science you're listening

42:56

most likely to a man, which is

43:00

we love men, there's no problem with that, but

43:02

this is different. I love that about this. So

43:05

women for sure uplifting women's voices. So

43:08

I'm having to deal with my internal

43:10

audience environment saying that we've said too

43:12

many positive things about the podcast and

43:14

I'm feeling I'm feeling

43:16

my own level of discomfort just acknowledging.

43:19

Okay, I'm gonna be the I'm gonna

43:21

be like a secure voice to say

43:24

here's the thing. Everything we're saying is accurate. It's actually

43:26

all true as far as like some of the good

43:28

things that we're saying is true, right? Like we are

43:30

in the top 10 and we have to have those

43:32

things and all the but also

43:35

even if we're coming across a little

43:37

braggadocious, even if we are, people

43:40

can hear that and like just know that

43:42

we're excited and know that we're proud and

43:44

know that we've worked really hard on this

43:46

and that we're we get our moment in

43:48

the Sun of saying there's really cool

43:50

things happening here and we invite other people into

43:52

it and this isn't we're not

43:55

cult we're not cultivating people to circle

43:57

us. That is what I want to come

43:59

back to as we end. this is not about we're asking

44:01

people to get people together to circle us when we

44:03

go to a city. It's we

44:05

want people to get together who feel really

44:07

motivated about the idea of connecting on these

44:10

really important topics of getting through your own

44:13

defenses and being able to connect in a

44:15

very secure way across the aisles. And

44:18

I would love to have meetups that have a

44:20

division of people with different political connections

44:24

and that we're going to get together and

44:26

actually, you're doing crazy talk right now. Yeah,

44:28

that's my passion, right? Let's have these really

44:31

hard conversations with people that we might not

44:33

otherwise and quit having it be an us

44:35

and them. We wrote about like

44:37

getting out of the us and them and

44:40

getting into the us, that all of us.

44:42

And so again, okay, I'm gonna say something positive

44:44

about our us again, which is

44:46

that I think that we're pretty good at not doing

44:49

like those clients over there, those

44:51

people who struggle over there, you know,

44:53

we're the therapists and we know and

44:55

we're gonna impart our wisdom. I think

44:57

we're pretty good at not doing

44:59

that divide that it's easy to fall into

45:01

as an educator and as a

45:04

therapist. I agree with you. I think I

45:06

can be really good, but I think I

45:08

can be a rock sometimes when I'm really

45:10

activated politically, or if I'm activated around a

45:13

topic, like I can get the us and

45:15

them like the best of you. If I'm

45:17

not paying attention, like I

45:19

think about myself around three or four

45:21

years ago and how much I contributed

45:24

to the problem with what

45:26

I posted and how I posted it. And

45:28

again, this isn't I want it all to

45:30

be ignoring the really, really, really important topics

45:33

and say, Oh, no, let's just all get along. We

45:35

are the same and we all agree like hell no,

45:37

I'm not ready to do that. But

45:39

I have been extremely motivated to

45:41

like connect on a less reactive

45:43

defensive way so that I can

45:45

quit seeing the world so polarized

45:47

and adding to it. Yeah, exactly. So you

45:50

can be more effective, right? Change that you

45:52

want to see happen that we're going to

45:54

be more effective from our secure place. And

45:56

this is why I'm excited to form groups

45:58

out there. People have groups. that are motivated

46:00

by that and they want to have these

46:02

deeper conversations about how to do that, that's

46:05

what we'll travel for. That's what we want to

46:07

do. That's what we want to spread. I just really

46:09

kind of want to come back to that. It is not

46:11

that we're wanting to everybody to come see us. We're wanting

46:13

everybody to have these conversations and we want to be the

46:15

impetus for that. I

46:19

noted. I think

46:24

that's a good caveat. It's an important one.

46:26

It is a really important one. Obviously, we're

46:28

both totally on that same page. All right.

46:30

We're going to ask something of you. For

46:33

those of you that have stuck with us or still

46:35

listening, we would like you to give us a holiday

46:38

gift. That holiday gift

46:41

is to go to your, wherever you get your

46:43

podcast and just leave us a rating and review.

46:45

It makes a huge difference. This is going to

46:47

make Anne totally squirm, but

46:50

it actually really helps get the word

46:52

out. We just haven't been

46:55

asking for them and they just

46:57

kind of fallen off. It would be really cool

46:59

and awesome and wonderful to lead

47:01

us a rating and review. We will read every single

47:03

one of them and it matters a lot. All

47:06

right. Thanks so much for joining us and we'll see you around the

47:08

bend. Their

47:15

list on Censor is Anne Kelly and

47:17

Sue Marriott. This podcast is edited by

47:19

Jack Anderson. Thank

47:24

you.