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Now, onto the show. Welcome

1:00

to this episode of Therapy and Theology and

1:02

today's topic is going to have you leaning

1:04

in. It's a question that

1:07

many of you sent in and the

1:09

question was around anger. I'm really angry.

1:11

Now, what do I do about it?

1:14

Well, before I get into the content, I

1:16

have to let you know that our team

1:18

put together a really helpful listener guide that

1:20

you can download for free using the link

1:22

in the show notes. It's a

1:24

summary of our discussion that will be so

1:26

useful for you as you unpack what we

1:28

discuss, maybe take your own notes and

1:30

it'll be a great reference for you as you

1:32

have conversations with friends or family. I do not

1:35

want you to get angry trying to keep up

1:37

with us and we're going to move pretty fast.

1:39

So make sure you use that helpful resource.

1:42

Now, let's dive into today's content.

1:44

Are you angry right now? Well, no, I'm

1:46

saying the question. But

1:48

I relate to it because sometimes

1:51

things happen and I really

1:54

do feel angry about it.

1:56

And a lot of times it's where something is

1:58

unfair or not. being

2:00

justly handled or

2:02

even just a strong emotional reaction

2:04

to an offense at hand. And

2:08

this is the Bible verse that I

2:10

think about sometimes. And sometimes I really

2:12

like it because I'm like, yeah, yeah,

2:14

that's good. And other times I'm like,

2:17

oh, I don't really want to read this verse right now.

2:19

And it's from James chapter four, what

2:21

causes fights and quarrels among

2:24

you? Don't they

2:26

come from your desires that battle

2:28

within you? Do desire,

2:30

but do not have. So you kill, you

2:32

covet, but you cannot get what you want.

2:34

So you quarrel and fight. You do not

2:36

have because you do not ask God. I

2:39

remember one time, Jim, we

2:41

were in a counseling

2:44

session and you said,

2:46

do you know the number one thing that couples

2:48

fight about? This is what you were asking me.

2:51

And so I said all kinds

2:53

of things like maybe it's money,

2:55

maybe it's scheduling, maybe it's raising

2:57

kids or managing jobs or

2:59

whatever. And so I had a bunch

3:02

of thoughts about that. And

3:04

you said no to every single thing that I

3:06

said. And then you revealed the answer. You

3:08

said the number one thing that couples

3:11

fight about is nothing at all. That

3:13

was in Dr. John Gottman's research. I

3:17

remember just sitting there like, no, no, I

3:20

have fights about something. But

3:23

then oftentimes it's

3:26

really not about the thing

3:28

that we're arguing about. It's

3:30

usually other things that are

3:32

bubbling under the surface. And

3:34

according to James here, instead

3:36

of me pointing a finger at the other person, it's really

3:39

addressing me. What

3:42

causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't

3:44

they come from desires that battle within

3:46

you? And so

3:48

I have to sit with that sometimes because I

3:50

don't... In a

3:52

moment of anger, I want somebody else

3:55

to hear my side. And hear

3:57

it now. And hear it now. I don't

3:59

really want to hear it. examined whatever's

4:01

going on in here. So I

4:04

resonate with this listener's question. So

4:06

I'm angry. What do I do

4:08

about it? I'm gonna start with, since you

4:10

did James Ford's real quickly, the

4:13

idea of there's something you want.

4:15

We know that wonderful word of

4:17

desire and lust epithelia which can't

4:19

be an empty cup. And

4:22

as I want this, fill my cup and

4:24

I want it now. The lady at the

4:26

fast food, you know, drive through a slow,

4:28

but sometimes God, she's a lot faster than

4:31

you. See, it's the vertical we're mad at

4:33

God at times. Oh, and then certainly we

4:36

can be mad at someone else. Like, what are you

4:38

doing? And why are you not doing what I want?

4:40

But that idea that there's something I want, I don't

4:43

get it, so I murder in my heart. I mean,

4:45

it's not just Jesus, you know, over there in John,

4:47

they're talking about, well, you're actually, you lost your

4:49

an adult in your heart, you hate someone, you're a murderer in your

4:51

heart. I love the clarity of that and

4:53

I'm gonna say this, hope comes out right. Whether

4:56

that's biblically accurate or not, or whether I could

4:58

just close this book or not, there's so much

5:00

wisdom in this book that

5:02

I love it as the word of

5:05

God, but just as a wisdom book to go,

5:07

it really is that bad, Joel. If there's something

5:09

I'm not getting from you and I want it,

5:11

I can just kill you. I mean, I'll come

5:13

out at you that way and be, you know,

5:15

to try to do that, but I look like

5:17

I hate you inside, you're not doing what I

5:19

want you to do. It's not just I'm ticked,

5:21

I'm just kind of mad or something.

5:24

Sometimes in my heart, as we talk

5:26

with anger, I interviewed

5:28

anger, in fact, and found out her name was

5:30

Payne. I interviewed anger and found out his name

5:32

was Payne, or rage, and

5:35

I see that a lot with people. I'm saying, you're

5:37

not just angry here right now, but there's

5:39

a rage going on like about a two-year-old

5:41

to four-year-old toddler, I want what I want

5:43

and I want it now and you better

5:45

give it to me. I think developmentally, a

5:48

lot of our anger struggles, there's righteous anger,

5:50

don't get me wrong, but I think

5:52

developmentally, a lot of our anger struggles are

5:54

very, very young. I have young green kids,

5:56

so do you, you see them if they

5:58

were mad and angry. hit their cousin or

6:01

hit someone else you kind of expect it or

6:03

the daycare where my great kids go they get

6:05

a bite report. So grandma and I'm

6:07

granddaddy we call and say she get a bite

6:09

report today kid come at her and she's bitter

6:11

with the kid. You expect that to a degree

6:13

right from a toddler or someone saying that it's

6:15

going on in our country we'll get to that

6:17

later but there's a lot of anger that

6:19

I think is more it's just boiled over into rage.

6:22

You know I was

6:25

studying the story of Joseph

6:27

and how his brother's anger

6:30

against Joseph and

6:33

it stemmed a lot from jealousy you

6:35

know because Joseph was

6:37

the favorite child and

6:39

also Joseph apparently got this lavish gift called

6:42

a robe which signaled he wasn't going to

6:44

have to go out and work like his

6:46

brothers were so there's a lot going on

6:48

there was anger there was envy there was

6:51

jealousy there was strife there maybe

6:53

Joseph flaunted a little bit too. Yeah

6:56

you know what sometimes younger

6:58

children really don't have to

7:00

work hard like us older children but that's the

7:02

story for another day and that's the truth but

7:05

as I was reading that and I

7:07

saw the progression where

7:09

the brother's anger did

7:12

turn into an eventual

7:14

plot to kill him I just thought

7:16

that's so severe but what that tells

7:18

me is there's never just a little

7:20

bit of anger. Yeah. There's

7:22

never just a little bit of jealousy

7:25

there's never just a little bit of

7:27

envy and strife those things grow unattended

7:29

in our heart they grow and I

7:31

know from some of the research we've

7:34

looked at I also think probably from

7:36

John Gottman is one of the

7:38

number one killers of a relationship

7:40

is simmering resentment. Now in Duke

7:42

University by the way not far from where

7:44

we are did a study way way back

7:46

goes into the 80s that

7:49

they did a study that they found empirically

7:51

that the number one killer in America was

7:54

unforgiveness. Now you have a best-selling book

7:57

on forgiveness right because that unforgiveness there

7:59

is anger. and far more than that

8:01

there's this rage I will not forgive you for

8:03

what you've done. Vengeance is

8:05

mine sayeth me." So they

8:07

did a study in this somatic that's a word

8:09

for body but people like I'm not forgiving. That's

8:12

just you drinking poison, expecting somebody else

8:14

to get sick. Doesn't work. Right. It

8:17

kills people. I actually think that the Joseph narrative embodies

8:19

that specifically. Think about it like Joseph

8:22

is thrown into the pit, right? And

8:24

what do his brothers do while he's

8:26

in the pit? They plot. They

8:28

plot and the Texas they're eating. They're

8:30

having a meal while homeboy's in a

8:32

pit. So again sometimes you're going to take this sentence

8:35

that you've taught me, Lacey. Like put

8:37

yourself in this human situation. You're

8:39

Joseph in the pit. You're

8:41

like my brothers have just jacked

8:43

me up most severely and now

8:45

they're enjoying the food and

8:47

I can smell the food and hear them

8:50

chewing and eating and the whole nine yards and

8:52

now I'm going to be taken away. Okay, all that

8:54

happens. So the simmering resentment, right? Here's

8:56

the context that Joseph forgives in

9:00

front of a table with

9:02

food in a banquet.

9:04

Where the brothers are asking. Where the whole

9:07

thing has been flipped. And I think that

9:09

Joseph really does. I think because you know

9:11

music does this in terms of our senses.

9:13

It draws us back to places of trauma.

9:16

So here's food. Here are the brothers. They're

9:18

chopping on their food. I think Joseph's like

9:21

oh my gosh. And now the position has

9:23

been flipped. I'm not in the in

9:25

the prison. I'm a prince of Egypt. And

9:27

now what am I going to do? And it's

9:29

in that same context of that anger and

9:31

of that like all things that happened that

9:34

forgiveness actually takes place. You know don't you

9:36

this isn't a Hollywood movie but follow that.

9:38

I've often thought if it was some movie

9:40

and it was retribution or justice at the

9:42

end of it and Joseph said you

9:44

bunch of losers. This

9:46

is who I really am and I'm going to kill

9:48

you. There'd be a number of people. I'm not so

9:51

sure a number of Christians but in our culture right

9:53

now America serves them right. He

9:55

was right to do that. He got them back. I'm like

9:57

whoa whoa whoa to dial that back. What are we learning

9:59

Genesis? which you've alluded to it, that's

10:03

not my way often as a human. It's

10:05

for vengeance, and yet God's ways are higher. I

10:08

think there'd be people that say, yeah, it serves them right. There's

10:11

a different story here, isn't there? And

10:14

from Genesis 37 to Genesis 50,

10:16

there's a lot of development of

10:19

Joseph's calling, our

10:21

character to develop... His

10:23

character is developed to match his calling. And

10:26

then toward the end of a

10:28

lot of maturity, he's 17 when the

10:31

story starts, and toward the end, so we get

10:33

to Genesis 50, 20, a lot of time has

10:35

passed. A lot of other things have passed. And

10:38

I think it's not time that heals all

10:40

wounds, but it's what we plant in the

10:42

soil of that time that disstrumens if we

10:45

heal or not. And of course, we

10:47

see Joseph's story turns, and he

10:49

doesn't have simmering resentments. He has

10:52

struggles with forgetting the brothers. He's

10:55

hurt. He acknowledges that they hurt him,

10:57

but we eventually get to Joseph

10:59

saying, you intended to harm me.

11:01

He has a sugarcoat. No, that's true.

11:03

He's like, you did intend to

11:05

harm me. That's good. But

11:08

God. And I

11:10

like this turn of events where

11:12

you see but God and things

11:14

turn, because there's another perspective operating

11:16

at the same time. You intended

11:18

to harm me, but God intended

11:20

it for good to accomplish something,

11:23

to accomplish what is being done,

11:25

the saving of many lives. Hi,

11:28

friends. I hope you're enjoying this episode

11:30

of therapy and theology. Before

11:33

we hear what's next, I want to

11:35

pause and tell you more about our

11:37

partner for season six, Compassion International, and

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why Proverbs 31 Ministries is so excited

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to support their mission. Compassion

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exists to bring real solutions to the

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poverty that so many children in today's

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world are facing all in

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you and me. I've

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through Compassion today. So

13:32

I want to go all the

13:34

way back to the original thought

13:36

of you are angry because you're

13:39

not getting what you want.

13:42

So I think a logical question, and

13:45

I wish that we could go back and sort

13:47

of replay out the brother's story.

13:49

How would things have looked? Now we know

13:51

God did a lot of good from what

13:53

happened, but what if the

13:56

brothers were to have examined their own

13:58

heart? What do I really believe? really

14:00

want? And oftentimes the answer

14:03

to what we really want is

14:05

not super complicated. It's

14:08

something pretty basic, but either because we've

14:10

been given no form for our voice

14:12

to be expressed or the anger has

14:14

taken over and we can't logically think

14:16

what's really driving all of this, or

14:19

because our desire or our

14:21

need has been expressed in

14:24

terms of an expectation which

14:26

already introduces animosity and simmering

14:28

resentments into the conversation, sometimes

14:31

we never really get back to the

14:33

original question. I'm angry because I

14:35

want something. Now what is it

14:38

that I want? And if

14:40

we can go back to that and really

14:42

examine, is this an unrealistic

14:44

expectation where simmering resentments are getting

14:46

in there, or is

14:48

this a desire that maybe instead

14:50

of using the approach of anger,

14:53

maybe through healthy conversation, I could

14:55

actually get what I want, which would

14:57

help manage and dissipate and probably even

14:59

do away with some of the anger? So

15:02

I'm going to take a stab at this theologically,

15:04

and then I want to hear the therapeutic

15:06

part of this. But I think we can use

15:08

the Joseph narrative as a foil or as an

15:10

example for how to kind of navigate what you've

15:13

talked about in James chapter four, and then

15:15

something James says earlier in James 1.19. But I'm

15:18

going to call this the anthropocentric view of

15:20

life. And that just simply means the human

15:22

centered view. So I can't

15:25

drop by it, but basically it's the unholy trinity of me,

15:27

myself and I. Notice this

15:29

in four. Which is not the holy trinity. Which is not the

15:31

holy trinity. Yes, it's a part of the landscape. Thank you. Thank

15:33

you for the theological fact. No one was not listening. The

15:37

unholy trinity. Yes, me,

15:39

myself and I. But that is the

15:41

lens, the framework, the anthropocentric or human

15:44

centered lens of James chapter four. And

15:46

he starts this. What is the source? What's

15:49

the foundation? What is the wellspring of these

15:51

wars and fights among you? And he goes,

15:53

don't think I'm fluent in you. Passions, desires,

15:55

all these types of things. Back

15:58

to the Joseph era and these brothers. We can't

16:00

know for sure or for certain, but I think

16:02

we can pretty much get very close to that.

16:05

Like 99% I would argue is they want their dad to

16:07

love him. They want

16:09

the love of a father. In

16:12

the absence of the love of a father is the presence

16:14

of jealousy of a brother. Right?

16:16

Okay. Now look at James 1.19. Look

16:20

at the structural framework. What

16:23

James does for us is he

16:25

gives us a theocentric or a Christocentric framework

16:27

to see through the lens of Christ or

16:29

to see the lens of God. They

16:32

ask Christo. Verse 19. I'm

16:34

going to actually – it's going to be a little

16:37

bit different from you because I'm actually doing some Greek

16:39

translation in my brain here really quick, but this is

16:41

the main idea. He's

16:43

saying this. My dear brothers and sisters

16:45

understand that understand comes first in the

16:47

sentence, so – and it's imperative. So

16:49

he starts with this. Understand.

16:52

Right? Imperative. Do

16:54

this. Understand, which is emphatic. And then he

16:56

says, my dear – and he softens the situation. So

16:59

he goes strong. Understand. And

17:01

then he goes, my siblings, my dear

17:03

brothers and sisters. And then

17:05

he gives the scope everyone. Right?

17:09

Everyone should be – and notice the list. One

17:12

is quick is too slow. One

17:14

quick thing, too slow things. What is the quick thing?

17:17

Quick to listen. Slow

17:19

to speak and be slow to hanger.

17:23

You've probably heard the phrase hurry up and listen. This

17:26

is where it comes from. Like everything

17:28

comes back to the biblical text, and it's this desire

17:31

that James is trying to get

17:33

us to combat the desires of

17:36

James 4 that is quick to

17:39

feel, to fight, to be angry, to get what

17:41

I myself and I want. Instead of – Yes,

17:44

exactly. And he's saying, like,

17:46

slow down. Like

17:48

that phrase slow in Greek, it has

17:50

the sense of hesitation or delay. I

17:52

think this is very important. It's not

17:54

stop. It's slow. It's not

17:57

that you don't have a voice or a way to feel later

17:59

on. and to legitimize your anger, it just

18:01

says, for a second,

18:04

consider and put a stopgap in

18:06

place so that you can get the full

18:08

context. By the way, Joy, like I said

18:10

quickly, there is going to be with that

18:12

a tertiary interpretation along with that,

18:14

because two more things we're gonna add to

18:16

that, which we all know, we've talked about

18:18

it here. I will not just slow

18:21

down me, I will literally slow down my thinking,

18:24

including the emotional self-regulation, and

18:26

I will slow down

18:28

my body, putting

18:31

me on a path to respond,

18:33

not react. This works if

18:36

we practice it. Yeah, and

18:38

I've discovered that there's

18:40

a worse feeling for me than

18:42

whatever has stirred up the anger, and

18:45

the worst feeling is regret.

18:47

Rules, yeah. So I don't,

18:50

I sometimes, when I'm talking,

18:52

I will almost feel

18:55

paralyzed because I'm not able to

18:57

figure out exactly what I want

18:59

quickly, and instead,

19:01

I'm feeling this rush of emotion,

19:03

this rush of energy, and that

19:05

energy makes me want to be

19:08

quick to speak and quick to accuse

19:10

and quick in all those ways, but

19:12

I've learned until I really examine

19:15

what it is that I want,

19:17

I need to slow all of

19:19

that down, and I don't wanna

19:21

say something that I regret, because

19:23

sometimes out of strong emotion, I'll

19:25

speak something or I'll make an

19:27

accusation that's not really true. That's what

19:30

you have for a reaction hangover right there,

19:32

later, like you get regulated. We've

19:34

talked about this a bunch, I love where you're leading us here, and

19:36

I go, I gotta

19:38

redo, now the words are gone. Can

19:41

I do, and that's that reaction hangover. Oh,

19:43

man. So how do I slow that? That's a good

19:46

way to breathe that. Yeah, slowing it down, back to you. But

19:48

I'm thinking, like, okay, in our friendship,

19:51

maybe you have been really, really busy for

19:53

a while, and I

19:56

am having that buildup of

19:58

anxiety that turns into... to

20:00

animosity that turns into simmering

20:02

resentment. And what

20:05

will happen is some then I

20:07

start labeling you as,

20:09

okay, Joel has been so busy,

20:11

and he doesn't want to spend

20:13

time with me. Now, that's probably not

20:15

what's going on in your head. But in

20:17

my mind, I'm like, he's selfish.

20:20

He doesn't care. He's consumed his own

20:22

thing. He's consumed his own thing. He's not

20:25

picking up on the clues that I'm laying down.

20:28

And he's just basically in his

20:30

own world without any care or

20:32

concern for me. Now, some

20:34

of those things may be true, but a lot of

20:37

them aren't true. But I

20:39

have to slow down before I start

20:41

making accusations like, Joel, you're so selfish,

20:43

because me doing that is going to

20:45

increase the anger because now it's going

20:47

to be my anger multiplied with your

20:49

frustration, or possibly even anger as well.

20:51

But if I were to back up, and I

20:54

would just say to you, okay, this

20:56

is what I'm feeling, Joel, now, whether

20:58

it's justified or what, I'm not going

21:00

to make an accusation. So this is

21:02

what I'm feeling. This is what's feeding

21:04

that feeling. This is

21:06

the frustration that is causing me now,

21:08

Joel, I need you to share some

21:11

facts with me so I can better

21:13

understand the dynamic. And then once you

21:15

share the facts, now, together, let's figure

21:17

out what do I need, what do

21:19

you need, and how do we move

21:21

forward? I think the beauty of that is

21:23

you move us from monologue

21:25

to dialogue of conversation, right?

21:28

Monologue, everything's happening in the chamber

21:30

of your heart, and you're creating

21:33

presuppositions or pre-understandings and preemptive

21:35

answers of what the other person

21:37

is going to do and say.

21:40

When you slow down, and

21:42

you take a self-assessment of how you're feeling,

21:44

and then you invite the other person to

21:46

be able to speak to the truth of

21:48

what they're actually feeling, the slowing down to

21:51

listen has a duality to

21:53

it. It's dialogical in the sense

21:55

that, yes, you get to know deeper

21:57

and better of yourself, but you also get to know and

22:00

deeper of the other person. And that might

22:02

change the entire framework of the of the

22:04

anger that you felt in the first place.

22:07

It might justify your anger where

22:10

you're like, hey, like, okay,

22:12

I had these thoughts. Those have been confirmed

22:14

now. And now we can have boundaries

22:16

or consequences for what we're going

22:18

to do in life. Or it might

22:20

change that anger and in its place

22:23

have empathy and compassion. Because

22:26

you're like better understanding of

22:28

what's really happening in the totality

22:30

of the experience you and me.

22:33

You know, there is a

22:35

place for righteous anger. And

22:38

I've given this some thought too because

22:40

sometimes I

22:42

want to be right anger, you

22:45

know, and that's not the

22:47

same thing as righteous anger. And

22:49

so I have also

22:51

learned to examine my heart. What

22:54

is this anger really driving

22:56

me toward? Righteous anger

22:58

would drive me toward

23:00

doing something positive,

23:02

making something right. And

23:05

it's not just for my sake, but it's for a

23:07

greater good. But we don't want

23:09

to violate scripture in an effort

23:11

to defend another person or to

23:13

defend scripture. Say that again for the people

23:15

in the back, Lisa. We don't want to

23:17

violate scripture in an effort to

23:20

defend scripture, defend another person, or even

23:22

defend myself. So we

23:24

can't help what's coming at us, but we

23:26

can help how we move toward it. And

23:29

if there's righteous anger, then we have

23:31

to stay in alignment with God's word.

23:33

But it is okay to fight with

23:37

that kind of energy for something that's right.

23:39

But we have to stay in alignment with

23:41

scripture. But then the other kind of anger

23:43

is I just want to be right

23:45

anger, you know. And so a

23:47

question I know you guys have heard me say

23:50

it before, but it really does help me. Am

23:52

I trying to prove that I'm right? Or

23:55

am I trying to improve this relationship

23:57

because I can't do both at the same

23:59

time? Okay, Joel,

24:01

any last words about anger? I

24:03

want to hear from Jim. I felt like I kind

24:05

of took us all the way through the theology piece,

24:08

but... Aw, I'm listening to you

24:10

being so, like, slow to speak. Yeah. I'm

24:12

going to transition over to Jim. You've changed.

24:15

Wow. Look at that. I've been watching therapy

24:18

and theology. Yeah, I've been embodying it. I

24:20

love you, buddy. Now, what do you want

24:22

to hear? Well, okay, let's

24:24

say someone comes to you and

24:26

they say, I am really having

24:28

an issue with anger. There's nothing

24:30

major going on in terms of,

24:32

like, one incident that's making me

24:34

so angry, but rather I'm finding

24:36

myself quick-tempered and I'm angry about

24:38

a lot. Like I'm angry at

24:40

the person who cut me off

24:42

in traffic. I'm angry at the

24:44

grocery store attendant for not, you

24:46

know, like, moving

24:49

along fast enough. I'm angry at

24:51

my husband. I'm angry at my

24:53

kids. And I'm just... I

24:55

don't want to be an angry person, but my

24:57

actions are making me add up

24:59

to be an angry person. My

25:02

mind, in rigorous honesty, is going to

25:04

think in that moment and

25:06

hypothesize and not lead with this. But

25:08

in my mind, we'll think, I wonder

25:10

if this person is in

25:12

the victim triangle. They have a

25:14

victim-motor mentality. I do not judge

25:16

them for that. And with that, if they're

25:18

in this triangle of the victim triangle, they

25:20

will be as a victim and they'll need

25:22

God or somebody else to rescue them or

25:25

they'll make people their persecutor or what we call

25:27

perpetrator. So I want to...

25:29

I would think, I'm contemplating. I wonder if

25:32

they're in that victim-motor place. You know, everything's

25:34

after me. This is not right. Lots

25:36

of injustices in the World War, breaking news. The

25:39

world right now is filled with injustices. And it's going

25:41

to be that way for a while. It's probably been

25:43

that way for a while already. So

25:45

then I want to interview the angry. I'll tell

25:47

that person one example. You've seen it. Where

25:50

I would say, let's just have for a moment, bring

25:52

out a chair in my office, an empty chair, write a

25:55

three by five court says anger in it, disappointment,

25:57

what have you. And so I wouldn't... Now

26:00

you come sit in this chair. It's so

26:02

easy. It's an experiential thing. I'll

26:04

say you become angry. Now, let me interview you anger.

26:06

How long have you been present in

26:08

Bill's life? And

26:10

tell me so long time What were some three things

26:13

you were angry about in childhood and just don't add

26:15

it if it comes to their mind They say it

26:18

and say now let's go to current what's

26:20

going on right now Is there anything anger

26:22

that you see with Bill? Let's say that's

26:24

out of alignment. Yeah, he knows

26:26

he's overworking He has some

26:28

disappointments He doesn't want to face the disappointments

26:30

his kids or a spouse or whatever or

26:33

his job and say so he's not really

26:35

grieving That because one of the stages of

26:37

grief ever to anger turn outward At

26:39

the world of anger turned inward which is often depression So

26:42

I can begin to interview that now you folks at

26:45

home you can do that just with a journal But

26:47

down. Hi, my name is ager if

26:49

you grab your thumb a friend of mine Taught me

26:51

this a long time ago. There are many versions of

26:53

it, but underneath anger is often hurt injustice

26:57

fear or frustration This

27:00

grabbing you them to subsequent a ground your body hurt

27:04

injustice To your frustration

27:06

hurt is I'm hurt Again,

27:08

you interviewed anger and found out his name. Her name

27:10

was hurt Injustice hurt injustice

27:12

change it to unjustice and this will

27:14

spell huff. I'm in a huff hurt

27:17

Unjustice, this is not fair. What's going

27:19

on often? You may be right hurt

27:21

and justice fear I'm afraid I

27:23

don't like what's going on or The

27:26

idea that I'm just frustrated a block goal You

27:29

can go deeper over a step of the napkin

27:31

at Panera or Starbucks and say let's do this

27:33

right here What's under that? Where do we have

27:35

that in the Bible Proverbs 20 verse

27:38

5 the purposes in a person's heart are

27:40

deep What you need to not snorkel but

27:42

do a little scuba and sing let's think

27:44

beneath Let's go a little lower and say

27:46

tell me more three words. Tell me more

27:49

about that I find the average person without

27:51

having to go to counseling can sit down

27:53

someone say you know what? I think that's

27:55

what if here come the tears and here

27:57

comes something else here comes past betrayal and

27:59

something new friend also betrayed their spouse

28:01

and now you have PTSD. So interview anger

28:03

and you can do it by yourself like

28:06

what's out of alignment in my life and

28:08

then if you land but this is unjust,

28:10

this is really righteous indignation, I

28:12

would say right but Joel's going to remind

28:14

us we're going to remind ourselves how

28:16

do I be angry but send

28:19

not and not want to turn and

28:21

execute judgment on people. People will get

28:23

that simple thing I've just done tons

28:25

of data and they can do it. I

28:28

like that a lot and then I would

28:30

add if I might a

28:32

second question. So it's

28:34

like okay I'm hurt so I'm interviewing

28:36

anger and I discover I'm hurt or

28:40

I'm frustrated and whichever

28:42

of the four that you

28:44

land on and then add this question

28:46

and this is the story I'm telling

28:48

myself. Because when you

28:51

add on and this is the story

28:53

I'm telling myself that's where you can

28:55

pick up on. I feel like

28:57

everyone's out to get me. I feel

29:00

like nothing ever goes my way. God

29:02

is certainly not intervening as he should.

29:04

Yes and that's where we can start

29:06

to pick up on. I really I can't

29:08

I like I bristle every time I hear

29:10

victim mentality and it may

29:12

be because sometimes I have a victim

29:15

mentality. I don't know but

29:17

I don't want to be caught

29:19

in that victim triangle. I don't

29:21

want to have a perpetrator and

29:23

a rescuer. Like I want

29:26

to get out of that and so

29:28

it helps me when I say okay

29:30

these are things happening. Like the anger

29:32

is an indication of a hurt

29:34

that I'm feeling and the hurt that I'm

29:36

feeling you know this is I'm going to

29:38

journal all about that but then it's even

29:41

more important for me to say and this

29:43

is the story I'm telling myself because if

29:45

there is any of that victimization

29:48

or if there is any

29:50

of that thought where you

29:53

know like this proves that I'm

29:56

less than this proves that he

29:59

just doesn't care. whatever the story that I'm

30:01

telling myself is where the real trauma

30:03

sometimes is sitting. And so

30:05

that helps me to add that on. And

30:07

then once I see, and this is what

30:10

I'm telling myself, now what's something positive that

30:12

I can do to not

30:14

sit in these hard feelings, but start

30:17

making progress towards something better? A

30:19

little tricky thing. I have, boy, wow, I hope this is

30:21

being recorded. That was really good. Seriously.

30:24

My goodness. And practical, which is part

30:26

of your original vision with therapy and

30:28

theology. We're getting a lot of theology

30:31

into some practical counseling and therapy right

30:33

here at this table. Thank you for

30:35

what you do with that. I have never said

30:37

this to you before. I'm going to say it now.

30:39

I am not a proponent of what is popular

30:41

in our culture. I understand why it's there, but

30:44

I'm not a proponent of anger management. I'm

30:46

going to manage my anger and I'm going to, maybe

30:48

it's a quarter point at some people. Let me just

30:50

manage. No, no, no. I

30:53

want to interview my anger and find out what's going on.

30:56

Anger's often a check engine light on the dashboard

30:58

of my life. And if I go

31:00

below them, pull codes, I go, oh, this is that,

31:02

this is what? That light goes off. I just did

31:04

it with Lexus down the street. And

31:06

the car wouldn't start, the light was on, they had to fix

31:08

it. It wasn't cheap, right? But it was worth it. Now

31:11

I can drive again. I want to go to a

31:13

fix on my own, but the idea is here, I'm

31:15

not going to manage my hair, but to say, what's

31:17

it trying to do? And when I go below and

31:20

fade beneath and apply the Bible to it and write

31:23

sizing this, analyzing the stories

31:25

in my head, guess what? The anger gets managed.

31:28

I don't want to put as to quote C.S. Lewis. He

31:30

said basically, it's a paraphrase, but it's in there. Put

31:33

first things first and second things

31:35

fall right in place. But if

31:37

you put second things first, you'll lose first and

31:39

second things. And so the second thing is get

31:42

rid of the anger and manage it and just

31:44

interview it and then anger will be well managed.

31:46

That's so good. Thank

31:48

you. Joel, do you have any last

31:50

words you want to say before we go?

31:52

Yeah, I do. I want to quote James 1-20. We

31:55

talked about 19 and we know context is

31:57

so important. This is a way

31:59

to summarize. exactly what Jim just said

32:01

and well our discussion has been, this

32:03

is what James 1.20 says, for human

32:05

anger and it's important that he emphasizes

32:08

human anger because it's different from righteous

32:10

anger. He goes from human anger for

32:12

human anger does not accomplish

32:14

God's righteousness. So

32:16

good, so helpful. I think I need to

32:18

go ahead and pull out my journal and

32:20

examine where have I

32:22

been frustrated or hurt lately that

32:25

could potentially leak out in my

32:27

life as anger and do some

32:29

self-examination and my prayer is that

32:32

this has been a non-threatening

32:34

way for us to examine

32:37

anger that honestly I think

32:39

we all deal with at times. So I hope

32:41

today has been really helpful. Friend,

32:45

can I tell you something? Our team's

32:47

vision in starting this podcast was to

32:49

have a place for conversations like today

32:51

and here's why. You may not

32:53

always feel comfortable telling your friend over coffee that

32:56

you're struggling with anger but that doesn't mean it's

32:58

not a reality that you're facing but

33:00

I want you to know something. God is not

33:02

ashamed of you. I hope you felt so assured

33:04

of this truth as you listen to today's conversation.

33:07

If you're anything like me I'm sure you

33:09

have so many takeaways that you want to

33:11

remember as you continue to process this episode.

33:13

That's why I want to remind you about

33:15

the Listener Guide that we created for each

33:17

episode of season six available to you completely

33:19

for free. These Listener Guides will include scripture

33:21

references from each episode and statements that you'll

33:23

want to hold on to but maybe you

33:25

missed as you were listening. You can

33:28

visit the link in our show notes to download our copy.

33:30

And as you continue to work through what you're

33:32

walking through I want to make sure you know

33:34

about a brand new Digital Study Guide that our

33:37

team here at Proverbs 31 Ministries created just for

33:39

you. It's called Am I Doing This Right?

33:41

How to Live Out Your Faith Through the Wisdom Found

33:43

in James. In today's conversation you heard

33:46

so many principles pulled from the book of James.

33:48

So if you're looking to take it even deeper

33:50

this Digital Study Guide would be a great next

33:52

step for you. You can find the link for

33:54

that in our show notes. Well that's all for

33:57

today friends. Thank you so much for tuning in

33:59

to this episode of therapy and theology.

34:01

I'll see you back here next week. Therapy

34:04

and theology is brought to you by Proverbs

34:06

31 Ministries where we believe when you know

34:08

the truth and live the truth it changes

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everything.