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1:00

Therapy Chat Podcast Episode 417. The

1:12

information shared in this podcast is not

1:14

a substitute for seeking help from a

1:16

licensed mental health professional. And

1:19

now, here's your host, Laura

1:22

Reagan, LCSWC. Hi,

1:40

welcome back to Therapy Chat. I'm

1:43

your host, Laura Reagan, and today

1:45

I am thrilled to be

1:47

bringing you a conversation, the

1:50

fourth one that was recorded

1:52

in 2023 between myself and my dear friend Linda Taub.

2:00

Let me tell you about Linda

2:02

before we get into the conversation. Linda

2:05

Tai, LMSW, ERT 200,

2:08

C-L-Y-L, describes herself

2:11

as a somatic therapist and

2:13

trauma therapist, a freelance educator,

2:15

public speaker and storyteller, group

2:18

facilitator, collaborator, infiltrator,

2:21

cross pollinator, community

2:24

builder, an agent of change,

2:26

a former child refugee and

2:28

a happy human being. And

2:31

the joyfulness that comes from Linda's

2:33

spirit is infectious and

2:36

undeniable. I am

2:38

so fortunate to have had

2:40

another opportunity to spend time

2:42

with Linda that we

2:44

recorded for you for

2:47

this podcast episode. And

2:50

unlike the previous three, which were focused

2:52

on my grief journey,

2:54

today we're talking about psychodrama

2:57

structures and what that

2:59

is and how it's

3:02

used for healing and how

3:04

Linda is working with psychodrama

3:06

structures. It's

3:08

so interesting, so beautiful. And

3:12

I'm thrilled to be heading

3:14

to San Francisco to assist

3:17

Linda in facilitating one

3:19

of these retreats for psychodrama

3:22

structures in February 2024,

3:24

which is very exciting. And I hope

3:26

to have the opportunity to participate

3:29

with her in the future as

3:31

well. But you

3:33

also can be a participant in

3:35

these trainings if it's something that

3:37

you're interested in. In the

3:40

show notes, you'll find links to

3:42

be informed in everything Linda's doing.

3:44

If you've caught the other interviews I've

3:47

done with Linda here on Therapy Chat,

3:49

you know that she has a training

3:53

program that she

3:55

delivers throughout the year in

3:57

somatic healing

4:00

from trauma and it's very affordable

4:04

and accessible and it's

4:07

extremely high quality. I've

4:09

recommended it to so many people and

4:11

everyone I know who has taken

4:13

the course, which I've also taken, has said

4:16

it was amazing. I know that she's

4:18

starting one of those, as we speak

4:21

possibly even today, I'm not sure today's

4:23

the first day or if

4:25

it was another day this week, but it's

4:27

very, it's getting going for

4:29

the winter slash spring 2024

4:33

right now and she offers

4:35

this continuously. So you can find all this on

4:37

her website and all the links are in the

4:39

show notes. Psychodrama structures,

4:41

loosely I'll just tell you is about healing

4:44

from the effects of having a

4:46

family of origin that did not

4:48

meet your needs in whatever

4:51

way. And so it's

4:53

attachment work and it's somatic

4:55

work and it's

4:57

movement work and

4:59

there's a lot of nuance to it and a

5:01

lot of ways that it can be delivered,

5:04

but I cannot wait to be with

5:06

Linda to witness

5:09

this in person myself in February.

5:12

And the last thing I'm going to tell

5:14

you before we get into the episode is just that

5:17

if you are a trauma therapist who

5:20

is looking for community and

5:22

support and you would like to learn

5:25

together with others online who

5:27

get it, what our work is like and

5:30

approach it from a perspective

5:32

of hope, compassion and

5:35

joy as well

5:37

as humor and connection,

5:39

support, learning,

5:42

curiosity, then trauma therapist

5:44

network would be a wonderful place

5:46

for you. And if you're on

5:48

the waiting list, you have up

5:50

until January 31st to come into our community.

5:55

I will open up registration

5:57

again two more times this

5:59

year. but right now this is only for

6:01

people who are on the waiting list and for

6:03

therapists who do want to join, there's

6:06

still time to get on the waiting list. If

6:08

you join the waiting list before January

6:10

31, 2024, we'll send you a registration link right

6:15

away. So if you're not on the

6:17

waiting list and you're a trauma therapist who wants to

6:19

be part of this, you can

6:22

find the link to the waiting list at

6:24

go.traumatherapistnetwork.com.

6:29

That link is also in the show notes.

6:31

So let's dive into my conversation with Linda.

6:34

Once again, Linda Tai, LMSW

6:36

is a friend and a

6:38

wonderful healer and a beautiful

6:41

soul and I hope you will enjoy

6:43

this conversation as much as I did.

6:49

Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat. I'm

6:52

your host, Laura Reagan, and with

6:54

me again, because I'm very fortunate,

6:57

is my colleague and

7:00

friend, Linda Tai. Linda,

7:02

welcome back to Therapy Chat and thank you

7:04

for being with us again today. It's an

7:06

absolute pleasure to be back here with you,

7:08

Laura. It's

7:11

my pleasure too. And oh,

7:15

I'm so excited because we've talked several times and

7:17

today we're going to cover a

7:21

topic that I'm

7:23

very interested in learning about. I know our

7:25

audience will be too, which is psychodrama

7:28

structures, which I

7:30

know nearly nothing about and you know

7:32

quite a bit. So before

7:35

we get into it though, will you just

7:37

tell our audience, for those who are listening for

7:39

the first time, who you are, a little

7:42

bit more about you and what you do? Sure.

7:45

So I'm a somatic therapist. I'm

7:48

a trauma therapist and

7:50

I'm also a person who's in my

7:52

own recovery from addiction, from

7:55

the impact of war and

7:57

forced displacement upon myself and

7:59

my family. family and the ways

8:01

in which that then impacted the ways

8:03

my parents raised us. And

8:06

so it's been a lifetime journey

8:09

of growth of healing and I'd like

8:12

to think that the byproduct of that

8:14

is that I'm now a trauma therapist

8:16

and a somatic therapist. Yeah,

8:18

a beautiful outcome of that

8:22

experience and what it was. It

8:24

is. The work you're doing

8:26

out in the world is so important

8:28

and very needed and I'm

8:30

glad that I've recently, only

8:32

recently discovered you in

8:34

your work. But so you are

8:37

normally in the state of Alaska

8:40

and the United States and

8:42

you want to tell people where you

8:44

are right now, where you're coming from?

8:46

For sure. So today on the

8:49

lands of the Wurundjeri people, also known

8:51

as Melbourne, Australia, you might hear parrots

8:54

flying overhead and calling, this

8:56

is where I was raised. So

8:58

I was born in Vietnam. We

9:00

lived in a refugee camp for

9:03

six months in Malaysia and Indonesia.

9:06

And then I spent a

9:09

good 30 years of my life in Australia

9:11

in Melbourne and then

9:13

did concentric circles outwards in

9:15

search of home and discovered

9:17

Alaska and it just nourished

9:20

a part of me that I

9:23

didn't realise was so dehydrated and

9:25

shriveled up inside. Growing

9:30

up in the city, I always thought that there was

9:32

something wrong with me that I hadn't found the right

9:34

pieces of the jigsaw puzzle of work

9:36

and partner and leisure activities

9:39

and home life.

9:42

And yet I realised that after

9:45

discovering Alaska, it was the case of the

9:48

landscape needed to reflect me and

9:52

there's a tonic that wildness

9:54

and wilderness and a direct

9:56

and personal relationship with food,

9:59

warm, and healthy. shelter

10:01

and water provided for me

10:03

at a sole nourishing

10:06

level that I

10:08

wasn't able to access in the city.

10:10

I think that's resonating with me

10:12

on some kind of a cellular

10:14

level because there's

10:16

something about that that just feels so

10:19

true and also I know

10:22

many people who have not

10:25

many but a handful of people

10:27

who I personal friends of mine who

10:29

moved to Alaska and found

10:31

something so different there from

10:34

the city where we grew up and

10:36

it was like something so needed something

10:39

about like a soul calling to a

10:41

place. Yes I found that

10:43

living in the city we're living in

10:45

the cycles of consumption and maintenance and

10:48

the cycles of nature are the cycles

10:50

of creation and maintenance and destruction and

10:53

that is inherent in living in the

10:55

cycles of nature and the cycles of

10:57

the season so we're always feasting and

11:00

always examining and there's

11:02

something that's so enlivening about

11:04

it. Yeah like following nature's

11:06

real rhythms instead of yeah

11:09

the like city life is like more

11:11

more more more more never stop. Never

11:14

pause. Yes

11:17

and I think about the words of

11:20

Joseph Campbell who's a comparative

11:22

philosopher and he says that

11:24

I don't think that people are in search of

11:26

the meaning of life. I think people are in

11:28

search of the feeling of feeling alive and

11:31

so how you live is so much more important than what

11:33

you do and that's something that

11:35

I've always known because I never

11:38

quite felt that I adulted

11:41

very well. I didn't like

11:44

what I was being taught in terms of adulting.

11:46

I knew I needed to do it but it

11:48

just didn't land for me because

11:50

the how needed to include a

11:53

depth of relationality with

11:56

something primal which is you

11:58

know food and warmth and shelter

12:01

and water and so

12:03

fishing and hunting and growing our

12:05

own food and we live without

12:07

running water by intention. We

12:09

cut our own firewood. It's

12:13

a wonderful way to live.

12:15

And so that actually created the foundation

12:18

for me to have the spare

12:21

time and the capacity to

12:26

get to know myself. And

12:28

so in Alaska is where I

12:30

discovered meditation and yoga and the

12:33

practices of meditation and yoga caused

12:35

me to become aware of

12:38

all of my addictions and compulsive

12:40

behaviors, the ways in

12:42

which I'd avoid and deny and

12:44

deflect and minimise and all those

12:46

defence mechanisms and then

12:48

was asked to teach meditation and

12:51

yoga in addiction recovery settings, outpatient

12:55

in residential community-based

12:57

settings and

12:59

then along the way in that journey

13:02

I bought a book on the day that it came out

13:06

which is The Body Keeps the Score and

13:08

I was actually catching a plane later on

13:10

that afternoon to go and travel to be

13:12

with my Stunga Yoga teachers and

13:14

so I have this intense period

13:16

of reckoning and at

13:19

the time it was

13:22

wonderful like I needed to have a

13:24

come apart. And then

13:26

a friend of mine said to me, hey come

13:30

and study with Bethel van der Kolk and

13:32

Leishis Guy and then

13:35

she's telling me about a week-long workshop that

13:37

she did with them and I

13:39

was because I just loved the

13:41

book so much and then Courtney

13:43

says oh and they do this psychodrama

13:45

structures thing where you put your family

13:47

of origin out there and everyone's like

13:49

crying because it's such moving work and

13:52

as soon as she said everyone was crying I

13:54

was like nah. That doesn't sound

13:57

fun to me right? No,

14:00

not at all. Because

14:06

I would do anything to avoid feeling

14:08

my feelings in real time on my

14:10

own, let alone in front of other

14:13

people. Yes. I

14:15

can really... And

14:17

yoga and

14:19

being in 12-step groups allowed

14:22

me to feel

14:25

my feelings in real time all by

14:27

myself. And that was

14:29

actually huge for me. And

14:33

yet when Courtney said, oh, and Beth was old, he's

14:35

going to die soon. Like

14:37

that was the thing that

14:39

made me go, okay, I'm going to go do it. I'm

14:43

going to go do it. And prior to that I'd

14:45

been... You know, I'd been in

14:47

the company of meditation and yoga teachers

14:49

whom I sought out. And so Beth

14:51

was another teacher whose company I was

14:53

going to sought out to seek out.

14:57

And so in 2016 I attended

14:59

Bessel and Leisha's workshop at

15:01

Bessel and Leisha's

15:04

non-verbal experiential exercises caused me

15:06

to realise how traumatised it

15:08

actually was and yet unaware

15:10

of it. And

15:12

the meaning Bessel presents, the

15:15

body keeps the score, but I'm seeing

15:17

my life on a series of PowerPoint slides while

15:21

taking the input in through my ears rather than

15:23

by myself with a

15:25

book caused me

15:27

to have another layer of

15:30

experience of myself. And

15:32

I was just numbed out and dissociated and

15:35

disconnected and blank the

15:37

entire time as my survival strategy

15:39

and yet I had enough capacity

15:41

to be curious. So I went back the

15:43

following year. And

15:46

by that point in time I'd done my own brain

15:48

spotting work. I think I started

15:50

foraying into IFF and

15:53

I was able to be more present. And

15:57

then the year after that I actually got

15:59

to do... my own psychodrama structure of putting

16:01

my family of origin out there in

16:04

the space and received

16:06

the experience of having an ideal mother

16:09

and that was life changing for me and

16:12

yet and so this is I think chapter 18

16:14

of the Body Keeps the Score

16:16

and it's the whole piece about

16:19

how we have these relational mental

16:21

maps of the world that we

16:23

haven't yet explored and

16:25

when we explore it not as

16:28

an intellectual concept but rather in

16:30

three dimensional space and

16:33

I look around the space with people

16:35

with whom I have a felt sense

16:37

of relative safety and I

16:40

ask someone could you take on the

16:42

role of my real mother

16:45

and then I place my real mother

16:47

exactly where she exists spatially

16:51

in relationship to me which

16:53

was way out of arms reach

16:56

like way out of arms reach and then

16:58

I get to shape that body into taking

17:01

on the shape of my

17:03

mother and then my feelings come

17:05

up and

17:07

because my feelings are just so overwhelming

17:10

Bessel offers me a support person,

17:13

a contact person who's

17:15

able to offer me physical visceral

17:18

contact in the ways

17:21

in which my body needs that

17:24

co-regulatory presence so

17:26

that I can then move through

17:29

whatever it is that comes up with

17:31

my mother being there in

17:33

the space and with whatever it

17:35

is that comes up for me because

17:38

you can't do trauma

17:40

without doing grief and

17:42

within a dysfunctional or under-resourced family

17:44

of origin there are two dynamics

17:47

one is homeostasis collusion and the

17:49

other one is impaired mourning and

17:51

so the task of learning

17:53

how to grieve and that it's okay to

17:55

grieve and that it's okay to feel my

17:57

feelings in real time as they arise are

18:01

all interwoven as

18:03

part of the substrate of this work. And

18:07

it taught me the value of

18:09

human touch and human contact that

18:11

is absolutely necessary in

18:14

order to work through the depths of

18:17

what's suddenly near this hole. And

18:20

yeah. Yeah. I

18:23

don't mean to interrupt. Please keep going. In

18:26

that particular piece of work that I did

18:28

with Bessel, I got

18:31

to offer my real mother an

18:33

ideal support person of her very own.

18:36

And as

18:39

soon as that person sat next to my

18:41

mother or sat next

18:44

to the person who was playing the role

18:46

of my real mother, there was

18:48

this visceral shift

18:50

for me where

18:53

I became aware of all the ways

18:56

in which I had inhibited my joyous

18:58

life force energy in

19:00

order to take care of my mother

19:02

who at the age of 19 was

19:07

living in Australia with a man to

19:09

her. She's had an arranged marriage, a

19:12

newborn child and a two and a half year

19:14

old child far from

19:17

the land of her ancestors and

19:19

without her elders to help guide her. And

19:23

we all share. We all

19:25

children adapt on an

19:27

energetic level in terms

19:29

of what we're aware of is

19:32

available and isn't available for us. And

19:36

to move through the

19:39

grief of what arose when

19:41

my mother or when the person who

19:43

played the role of my mother got a support

19:45

person was profound

19:48

for me. And then

19:50

once that moved through, I was

19:52

given the opportunity to choose an

19:55

ideal mother who wouldn't have

19:57

been there for me back

19:59

there. back then in the ways in which I

20:01

needed. And so

20:03

I looked around the space and picked

20:05

someone to take on the role of

20:08

the ideal mother and for

20:10

that person to hold me,

20:13

to, to run their hands onto

20:15

my head and to stroke my face

20:17

and for their body

20:20

to be available to my nervous

20:22

system brought up another

20:24

layer of grief for what I didn't

20:26

get that I'm now

20:28

getting as a somatic imprint. And

20:31

that's where as the protagonist, I then

20:34

got to, if I wanted to, the

20:36

capacity to ask for what I needed

20:39

back there, back then. And

20:42

I said things like, if

20:45

you were the ideal mother back there, back then

20:47

you would have sung to me. My

20:49

mother was very depressed. Yeah. And,

20:52

and I, and I would have heard your voice and

20:55

my voice and your voice would have interacted.

20:59

And so in that moment, the

21:01

person playing that role started singing

21:03

to me and rocking with me

21:05

and I am like blubbering and

21:09

she's offering me the missing

21:12

experiences of development that

21:14

I didn't get back there, back then. And

21:17

so this continued until it comes

21:19

to a place of quality,

21:23

meaning that I've, I've become

21:25

imprinted with what it would have

21:27

been like to have experienced an ideal mother and

21:31

how I moved through the

21:33

world, fundamentally changed after that,

21:37

I got re imprinted with the

21:39

experience of secure attachment in

21:43

an hour. And

21:45

I remember it was only an hour. My

21:47

God. And,

21:54

you know, I'm feeling so raw cause I've just blubbered

21:56

in front of 45 people

21:59

and. And my friend Courtney

22:01

was actually there with me and

22:05

she said, hey, let's go to the sea bar and I

22:07

said, yes, sure. And

22:09

then she said, can we, can I hold something for

22:11

you? And I said, yes, sure. And

22:14

in that moment I went, holy

22:16

schmoly, that's how people with

22:19

ideal mothers move through the world.

22:22

People offer them things and they just say, yes,

22:25

there's no barriers to receiving. There's

22:27

no hyper independence. There's no, I'm fine. I

22:30

can do it by myself. It

22:33

was profound. I

22:35

totally know what you mean with that. I

22:37

totally feel what you're saying there. Yeah.

22:41

I go back to my life the

22:43

following week. I'm sitting there with my

22:46

clinical supervisor and normally I sit a

22:48

little bit askew and I

22:51

walk into his office and I sit down

22:54

direct front and center. And

22:58

in that moment I was like, holy

23:00

wow. I don't

23:02

have to keep skirting at the edges of

23:04

life and at the edges of people's periphery

23:06

in order for me to experience safety. And

23:08

I had no idea I did that. Oh,

23:11

yes. Yeah. And

23:15

I'd been a student of Buddhism for a

23:17

while at this point in time. So I

23:19

knew that the difference

23:21

between conditional happiness and

23:24

unconditional happiness and how there

23:26

are desires of fulfillment of which

23:29

your happiness depends and then there

23:31

are desires and desiring in such

23:34

a way that the fulfillment of

23:36

those desires doesn't actually impact

23:40

your fundamental sense of wellbeing and

23:42

happiness in the world. And

23:45

so I got that and I was living

23:47

that as an intellectual construct that I was

23:49

putting into practice in my life. My

23:54

capacity to access that as an

23:56

instinctual innate way of moving to

23:59

the world. in the world was

24:02

available to me because

24:04

no matter what happens in the world I still

24:06

have this. This

24:09

meaning, this somatic imprint

24:12

of love, safety,

24:15

of being delighted in, of

24:18

someone who's got me no matter what. And

24:21

so after that I decided

24:23

I was going to learn how

24:25

to do this stuff because it

24:27

was so amazing. And

24:31

by this point in time I'd done my brain

24:33

spotting training, I'd done my eye-fist training, I

24:36

was in sensoromatocytotherapy training and I

24:39

continued with that because of the

24:41

way in which level 2 of

24:43

sensoromatocytotherapy works with the developmental restrictions

24:45

of attachment and the missing

24:48

experience somatically. And

24:50

yet with psychodrama structures the way BESL

24:54

has shared it into the world,

24:57

its group participants offering the

24:59

somatic experience to each other

25:02

rather than me as a therapist.

25:06

And I do have clients with whom

25:08

I work with in individual psychotherapy where

25:10

I do offer that kind of deep

25:12

holding however I offer

25:15

it with that clinical awareness of

25:18

right message, wrong timing is wrong message,

25:20

right intervention, wrong timing is wrong intervention

25:22

and we have to work the trauma

25:25

out of the nervous system first before

25:27

the new experience of attachment

25:29

can actually land. Because

25:31

otherwise it lands through the trauma

25:34

and can actually reinforce

25:37

adaptive parts that may

25:39

be maladaptive. And

25:42

I also just love

25:44

group work and I don't

25:47

know, I was just in love. And my

25:49

ADHD brain just loves how there was just

25:51

like 15 things going

25:54

on at the same time. It

25:56

was clinically like so juicy for

25:58

me. And

26:01

I can say in this moment, Laura, you've got

26:03

so many questions about this. I'm in the pod,

26:05

isn't it? Well,

26:09

I'm listening and hanging on every word for

26:11

sure. But yeah,

26:13

so many thoughts are coming up and

26:15

so many feelings too. I think

26:18

one thing I'm curious about as I'm

26:21

listening is, I don't

26:23

know how... Well, you're

26:26

a great teacher, so maybe you can. But

26:29

I don't know how easy it will be to

26:31

explain this, but I've

26:33

experienced myself with brain spotting.

26:35

How one session

26:40

can heal something, not

26:42

everything all at once, but something,

26:44

something very deep, something that's been

26:47

a long-standing problem that

26:49

you didn't know what really it was about. And then

26:52

it can... And

26:54

so in a way, and I

26:56

don't want to be dismissive of it, but in a

26:58

way it almost feels kind of like magic when

27:01

you have that kind of experience. It's so

27:03

mysterious. You don't really know for sure

27:06

exactly why that happened. You

27:08

can analyze it, but it's like, I don't

27:12

know what was happening, but

27:14

now everything's different. And this

27:16

is different because there's... Even

27:19

though brain spotting is, I think,

27:21

very relational, if it's delivered that

27:23

way, it's intended to be. I'm

27:26

curious if

27:28

you can... I'm not sure if I can configure

27:31

my question properly, but if

27:34

you can sort of share how

27:36

the one experience can

27:39

create that lasting somatic

27:41

imprint that was missing the whole time

27:43

for maybe 40 years or more. And

27:48

then, and I'm not saying I'm skeptical. I'm just

27:51

curious to if you can

27:53

explain that a bit more.

27:55

Yeah, there's a couple of ways

27:57

to these. So I Love...

28:00

Well murray processing techniques like price

28:02

voting. in India. they can help

28:05

to remove the. Activation

28:07

of the arousing. Associated

28:11

with. A traumatic event.

28:13

They can also help to join the dots.

28:16

Ah, intensive fragments of

28:18

memory. They. Can also

28:21

help to isolate a fragment of memory

28:23

and blood specifically with that in such

28:25

a while I that a she's fully

28:27

zone. And. Yet.

28:32

There's to the. Removal.

28:35

For like have a better word of

28:37

the traumatic memory or the traumatic in

28:39

France and yet we need to place

28:41

says that even print. And.

28:43

Lie down the neural networks that

28:45

always. Okay, I'm

28:48

with. Yeah, Yes, And

28:50

so that's where than. The

28:52

marriage imprinting owes. Us

28:55

attachment is so helpful! And.

28:59

They insist some of us to be Albert.

29:01

It. Into into the

29:04

depths of grief. In.

29:07

Order to be I Buddha. Speaks

29:10

the truth about in a landscape

29:12

to L Sound. Little.

29:15

Only front of other people. Have

29:18

eating it too That support person

29:20

that contact person that music calorie

29:22

as someone who is got your

29:25

battery sitting by your side tin

29:27

tin can help us to enter

29:29

into that. the money. And

29:31

they end that three dimensional space

29:34

so representation of the real air

29:36

seat is in our lol on

29:39

it is. Also.

29:41

Elicit a fanatic respond seen

29:43

a hobby that. We

29:46

otherwise wouldn't be aware of it would

29:48

be a cousin. Did it exercise like

29:50

how do you feel it towards the

29:52

mother? He's very different to. Let's ask

29:54

someone to represent your mother and put

29:56

your mother physically in the space in

29:59

such a way. Dead.

30:01

Feels. Like

30:03

a reflection. Of what

30:05

you've internalized. Noom. Hello

30:08

I've seen people. Put.

30:10

A pair France is he can't

30:12

just add of an arms race

30:15

and. Then they have been the parents.

30:17

So the death facing the other. Why?

30:20

And. Seated Appointed Share. right?

30:22

And. Be.

30:25

An era and. That

30:27

illicit something. Enough.

30:32

And brings up food for our awareness.

30:36

To bring it to completion. In

30:40

such and it's very direct. And.

30:42

Could potentially too fast and yet

30:45

when there's that supporters like contact

30:47

is to let Container you were

30:49

able to move through. And.

30:52

Then the other piece of these

30:54

is them. When we can externalize

30:56

something. We. Can then begin

30:58

to would with with the beginning sir.

31:01

Free. A distance while much if

31:03

necessary only closer to it.

31:06

Or. What? Did. Out of the

31:08

protagonists role as somebody else to play

31:10

the role of May so that I

31:12

can actually walk around Despise. Should.

31:15

Be obvious. You this from another

31:17

perspective. Royal angle. And.

31:19

It's that piece that folks who

31:22

are trained in expressive arts. Cause

31:24

therapies are aware of. When you can

31:26

externalize something, you should begin to work

31:28

with it from another vantage points. Yeah.

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32:32

That all feels right when

32:35

you talk about it. Thank

32:37

you for taking the time to explain that part.

32:40

I have a thought too about just

32:43

how, like

32:45

adoption, the

32:47

refugee experience and

32:50

the way it's spoken about, at least Western

32:53

culture-wise, tends to be

32:56

very like there was

32:58

a bad thing that happened, people

33:01

were rescued, and then they

33:03

all lived happily ever after because

33:05

they were safe, you know,

33:08

and that's behind them.

33:11

And again,

33:14

like with adoption, it's

33:17

so hard to be able

33:19

to name,

33:21

and adoption is just an example, any

33:24

early attachment loss,

33:27

being able to name, I feel

33:29

this way, or I needed

33:32

this and I didn't get it, and

33:34

how that is in the body, or

33:36

the felt-sense experience

33:39

back then of the terror and

33:43

the horror and the powerlessness and

33:45

the things that go along with

33:47

those types of experiences. We

33:50

can't name it because it's pre-verbal

33:53

and somatically held,

33:55

often and so early, we

33:57

don't have often, a

34:01

cognitive memory of it. I

34:03

don't know, there's just something about the way that

34:06

these experiences, these methods,

34:10

allow one to connect to

34:12

what's in there that we

34:15

don't know, and

34:17

then work with it. There's

34:20

so much richness in the human

34:22

experience, and

34:25

layers of ambiguous grief, the

34:28

layers of I didn't get something, and

34:31

then not getting of that experience has

34:33

left a pervasive emptiness in my inner

34:35

landscape, and it's unnameable.

34:38

It's the grief of neglect, it's

34:41

the grief of misattunement, it's

34:44

the not knowing what I don't know,

34:46

it's the not

34:48

talking about the things that you don't

34:50

wanna talk about so that I don't

34:52

have to know what it is that

34:56

you don't want to speak about.

35:00

And that's where I find great

35:04

power in bringing people together

35:06

who have similar lived experiences.

35:09

So I know that Tia and Dayton do, does

35:11

a lot of work with adult children of alcoholics,

35:15

and there are other groups that

35:17

come together, and

35:20

I love working with groups

35:23

where it's a mixed bag of

35:25

everyone, and I also really appreciate

35:27

creating a space for

35:29

adult children, refugees,

35:32

and immigrants, as

35:34

well as former child, teen, adult

35:36

refugees, and immigrants to

35:38

come together, and to

35:40

be a container for the grief that's specific

35:43

to us, and

35:45

to also reshape what it is that

35:47

I learned from Bessel to make it

35:50

more applicable for

35:53

people who've experienced

35:55

displacement. So

35:58

specifically, I

36:01

remember one structure where the

36:04

person brought their real mother

36:06

into the space and then sort

36:08

of giving their mother an ideal support person,

36:10

I mean which is very Eurocentric

36:12

and the hyper focus on the individual, we

36:16

actually gave the

36:18

person who played the role of the real mother a

36:22

person who represented an

36:24

ideal society. Wow. Wow.

36:29

Yeah. And

36:32

the shift in terms

36:34

of not just the grief but also

36:36

the possibilities that opened up for the

36:38

protagonist as a

36:41

result of experiencing her

36:43

real mother experiencing an

36:45

ideal society that

36:47

would have welcomed

36:49

her, that would

36:52

have given her

36:54

the space to move through the

36:56

grief, that would

36:58

have given her culturally appropriate

37:00

supports for adjusting

37:04

to life in a new country, an

37:07

ideal society that wasn't burning

37:10

crosses on the front lawn.

37:13

And this piece about the realm

37:15

of possibility that opens up is

37:18

what we're actually talking about when we're

37:20

doing psychodrama structures.

37:25

Yes, there's the re-imprinting of a

37:27

secure attachment temple boat and

37:32

there's a world of possibility that

37:34

opens up for you as the

37:36

individual when you see

37:38

your parents being taken care of

37:42

in the ways in which they needed

37:44

help back there back then because

37:48

that's the beginnings of the

37:50

inverted parent-child relationship. It's

37:52

the beginnings for rentification and

37:54

adultification for those

37:57

of us that are raised in

37:59

under-resourced families. which

38:01

then gets labeled as dysfunctional families.

38:04

I don't want to take us off track too far, but I was

38:07

going to say that, you

38:09

know, opening up the realm of possibility

38:11

where, you know, it, it removes

38:13

the idea that if my mother had

38:19

been an ideal mother and she

38:21

would have done everything right and

38:24

I would have been, I would have

38:26

gotten everything I needed and everything would have

38:28

been okay, is never going

38:30

to be possible because she is

38:32

also a person who has her own

38:34

needs. And even in mother

38:38

archetype, it's all

38:40

about only focusing on

38:43

the needs, you know, of others and

38:46

mother doesn't have needs, mother care

38:48

gives for others, but mother

38:51

was a woman and then a

38:53

girl before that who

38:56

had needs. And

38:58

when we're talking into psychically in

39:00

terms of the internal landscape, the

39:03

fact that we conflate our real mother

39:05

with the ideal mother is

39:07

where we get all of those tensions within

39:10

ourselves as well as between ourselves

39:13

and our real mothers in real life

39:17

because I'm so painfully aware

39:19

of all the ways

39:21

in which I would have been happier and had

39:24

so much more possibility alive if my real

39:26

mother had, have

39:29

had qualities of my ideal mother. So

39:31

we separate the two so that

39:34

I can actually grieve

39:37

the ship that sailed. And

39:41

when I can grieve the

39:44

ship that sailed, I'm

39:46

not just grieving on behalf of

39:48

my inner child, I'm actually engaging

39:50

in ancestral grief. Like

39:54

I'm actually grieving for my mother in

39:56

a lot of ways, the grief that

39:58

she crumbled hold on

40:00

to his guilt in regards

40:02

to who she couldn't be for

40:04

me. I'm picturing a 19 year

40:07

old, technically

40:09

adult but barely, with

40:12

a very young two-year-old

40:15

toddler escaping a

40:17

country that wasn't safe to be in

40:19

anymore. So doing everything

40:21

she could do to get you

40:23

out of that but she didn't

40:25

have, she wasn't all powerful to

40:27

make all that stuff that was

40:29

happening there not happen and all

40:31

the things that were happening around and her

40:34

only being so young herself and

40:39

that's the part where you said the ideal

40:41

society that's what I thought of is ideally

40:45

you wouldn't have had to leave you would have been able to

40:47

stay with your culture and it would

40:49

have been safe but that's

40:52

the ship that sounds. Yes.

40:57

Yes and

40:59

then the other part of this is

41:03

the child's fantasy as

41:06

in psycho-analytics the

41:08

fantasy of the

41:10

P-H-A-N-T-A-S-Y of

41:12

wanting to rescue or save or

41:15

caretake your parents from their pain

41:17

as a way of actually mitigating

41:20

my own pain I

41:23

actually got to play that out in

41:25

terms of giving my mother ideal

41:28

support this and ideal society

41:31

ideal parents or

41:33

an ideal best friend in Australia who

41:35

would have helped her to move and

41:38

navigate through life here or

41:40

an ideal elder. When

41:43

we came to Australia there was one

41:46

elder in amongst two or three thousand

41:48

Vietnamese stone leaves because the

41:50

old folks we had to leave behind

41:52

because it was such a treacherous journey

41:54

right so there are many ways

41:56

in which we can imagine what

41:58

would have changed for me back

42:00

there back then. But I get to

42:03

play out that child's fantasy and

42:05

have it actually resolve, become

42:08

associated. And then

42:11

I can have the experiencing of

42:13

an ideal mother who

42:17

then says to me, if I were

42:19

your ideal mother back there back then,

42:21

I would have taken care of you. You

42:24

wouldn't have had to take care

42:27

of me. And

42:30

the grief of that, as well as the

42:32

increasing of that. Yeah,

42:35

because we've now separated the real mother

42:37

from the ideal mother. And

42:39

that fantasy isn't getting in the way. No,

42:41

I can't, I can't feel this because I

42:43

have to take care of her. She won't

42:45

be okay if I feel this. So that

42:48

gets dealt with and then you

42:51

can feel it. Yes.

42:53

And then in my real life,

42:56

for me, right, I'm not saying this works

42:58

out for everyone, but for me what happened

43:01

was now that those two got separated, the

43:03

real mother and the ideal mother, I got

43:05

to play out my child's fantasy. I can

43:09

now be with my real mother as she is because

43:13

I'm now no longer projecting my

43:16

losses and longings onto her. And

43:20

I have that self-energy, the

43:22

capacity to bear

43:26

the truth of the

43:28

impact of forced displacement on

43:30

her instead of

43:32

being so self-absorbed with me. Not

43:35

that there's anything wrong with being self-absorbed, but that's what

43:37

trauma does and that's part of growing

43:42

up. It's

43:45

real adulting. Real adulting.

43:47

Real adulting is. Yes, yes. It's seeing

43:49

our parents

43:51

as people and

43:54

to then be able to see my

43:56

mother through the lens of her

43:58

losses and longings. that

44:02

she then projects onto the people

44:04

in her life including me or

44:07

withholds herself from owning

44:10

and therefore sublimates or just places

44:12

those feelings in

44:15

other ways and to not feel

44:17

like I need to rescue her or care

44:19

take her either. I

44:21

can simply be with the

44:24

awareness. You

44:26

can be you and she can be

44:29

her and nobody has

44:31

to change for it to be

44:33

a loving, connected

44:35

relationship. And we can be individuals

44:40

who are together. Yeah.

44:43

And then in terms of, I

44:45

mean within the gender binary, doing

44:47

work with my real

44:49

father within a psychodrama structure

44:53

allowed me once again to separate the real

44:55

from the ideal and to

44:59

also recognise

45:01

on a deeper level the ways

45:04

in which I had tried so

45:06

hard to shape all

45:08

of my intimate partners

45:11

into taking on the role of the

45:13

ideal father I never got to have.

45:17

While at the same time setting them up

45:19

for failure. There

45:23

was no way they were going to be able to fulfil that,

45:25

right? No. No. So then I would

45:28

get to be angry with them and

45:32

lash out at them in ways that I wasn't

45:34

able to with my real father. Right.

45:38

So resonant. It is. It's so

45:41

resonant. And

45:45

yet within other people's structures, I had

45:48

the experience with one person where

45:50

they decided they wanted four mothers. Four

45:55

ideal mothers and each mother represented

45:57

a certain quality. They

45:59

didn't. get from their real mother and

46:02

it was just so refreshing to break

46:05

out of the heteronormative

46:07

binary not just gender

46:09

but also the constructs

46:11

that we hold around

46:13

a family and

46:16

as a participant in that

46:18

person's work it was like oh

46:20

as an ideal mother figure I just

46:22

need to hold this one aspect.

46:26

How refreshing I don't have to do it

46:29

all and be everything. There's

46:34

something really poignant in

46:37

just that breaking up

46:39

that dichotomous one's

46:41

good, one's bad, one's

46:44

a victim, one's a perpetrator because

46:48

obviously that isn't how humans

46:51

and relationships really are but we

46:54

get so stuck in that and

46:56

I think a lot of times

46:59

trauma really makes us see

47:02

things in a very black and white way

47:04

or be stuck in a black and white

47:06

way of looking at a situation instead of

47:08

opening up a perspective

47:10

that's a lot more inconvenient but it's what's

47:12

real. It's like yep they did this that

47:14

was bad or mean or hurtful

47:17

and they did this that was beautiful and

47:19

loving and wonderful so which

47:21

is it are they bad or are they good? It's like

47:24

they're human. Very much

47:26

so. I've

47:28

also seen structures as well

47:30

as led structures where we bring in parts

47:32

of self and you could actually

47:34

have two people play the role of the real

47:36

mother because for some people objects

47:40

here to show it's like sometimes my

47:42

mother's like this and then sometimes you're

47:45

like this. So we might actually get the

47:49

personality flipped

47:52

so that the protagonist

47:54

can have the experience and

47:57

the awareness of all the ways and

48:00

and grief over all the ways in

48:02

which one had to adapt for oneself

48:06

to be able to function with

48:11

someone who was like this in the morning

48:13

and then that this in the evening. No,

48:16

I'm thinking how helpful that

48:18

would be with anyone whose

48:20

parent was really fragmented from

48:23

traumatization that the

48:25

different ways of relating

48:27

based on which part

48:29

was the most forward at that time

48:31

being able to just work with all

48:34

of it. Yeah, or dad. Yes,

48:37

or dad when

48:39

he's drinking and he's the

48:41

rage-aholic alcoholic and then dad

48:44

at the rest of the time. Yeah.

48:46

We can also bring in people as protective parts

48:50

so we can externalize your addict.

48:54

We can externalize your shopaholic.

48:57

We can externalize the workaholic

48:59

and so there's other fun

49:02

things that we can do that can allow

49:06

insights and yet

49:09

what I believe is so

49:11

powerful about this is the

49:13

monetization of the

49:16

capacity to gree as well

49:18

as the monetization of the

49:20

attachment template. And then

49:22

on another clinical piece because

49:25

I've seen, I've witnessed Bessel and

49:27

Bessel van der Kolk and Dick

49:29

Schwartz disagree around self-energy.

49:31

Dick Schwartz says, no, self-energy

49:33

is something we always have and we work

49:36

to access it. And Bessel says,

49:38

yeah, but for many of my clients, they do

49:41

not have capacity for self-energy. And

49:45

I have self-light parts and

49:47

it can be very – I was

49:49

struggling to find the word. It can

49:51

be very – it can add

49:53

another layer of self-deprecation To

49:56

become aware of self-energy and not be able to access

49:58

it. Thrive

50:00

Same. Infringing of.

50:03

An ideal parents did your parents

50:05

to gain a lion house said

50:07

a substrate, a stealth energy. To.

50:10

Be some that assigns and

50:12

baseball. Access. As.

50:15

Someone to see the world. It's very

50:17

into san thought provoking. Yeah.

50:20

This this is a little what anyone to arguable

50:22

that they did it but that's I thought that.

50:27

Edited: you betting clinical practice the long enough

50:29

that like a of the some folks years

50:31

this the so busy like wow we can

50:33

do that. Or. We can use

50:35

if the side of the know

50:37

the systems here at Access more

50:39

self weak hand it. Ah yes

50:41

it is wise always to caffeine

50:43

to sell facts as self energy.

50:45

And yes Stanford's it's. It's.

50:48

Just. Not. Available.

50:51

It's. An intellectual construct. It's a.

50:54

Another see I used to beat myself up with.

50:58

It's a good other people will have and

51:00

that I struggle with. Well. You

51:02

know that brings me and were.

51:04

We. Need to wrap

51:07

up unfortunately. but that brings

51:09

into something. I heard Dick

51:12

Schwartz say. Last.

51:15

Year Twenty Twenty to add

51:17

Trauma Research Foundation conference on

51:19

which they were it was

51:21

in in a presentation about

51:24

psychedelic and he said. Something

51:28

to the effect of i'll just I'll just

51:30

sort of. I'm not going to quote i'm

51:32

exact words. Because I have personal

51:34

don't remember the exact words but also

51:37

the concept. That I feel he

51:39

was saying is that some people

51:41

can not access self energy without

51:43

using and I think he was

51:45

specifically. Talking about ketamine. And

51:47

you and I had talked before we started

51:49

recording that some people use. Ketamine.

51:53

With. Psychodrama. Structures

51:55

as and another. Type.

51:58

Of intervention he say a little. That

52:00

before we wrap up. Absolutely Soil

52:02

there are geared is the use

52:04

of it a name for for

52:07

the sewage spirit and. The

52:10

V A depressive symptoms. And.

52:13

He becomes a replacement for

52:15

the medications the damn tried

52:17

and it's haven't worked in

52:19

sensors debilitating depression yeah and

52:21

that's not what which will

52:23

be about here little she

52:25

of that lowly dollars. Intramuscular

52:28

kinda mean that. Causes.

52:31

Full ones pretend to parts.

52:34

To. Be able to offer

52:36

some space. So.

52:39

That we can begin to explore.

52:41

The. Internal landscape. And.

52:44

Last seen all, it's fortunate enough

52:46

to participate in a soccer drama.

52:49

It I'm sorry out fortunate enough

52:51

to participate in a kid A

52:53

Matrix assisted soccer drama experience. Way.

52:56

There we played with all

52:59

sorts of combinations footage on

53:01

the first ketamine. Afterwards, Ketamine

53:04

says to the drone afterwards and

53:06

then Ketamine and Soccer drawn that

53:08

at the same time. And.

53:11

I. Ought what I experienced

53:14

myself with the socket rather system

53:16

the ketamine afterwards and. The.

53:18

Rapid neurogenesis that ketamine

53:20

facilitates allowed for a

53:22

depth of imprinting. Before

53:25

me and the work on had done.

53:28

At that point in time with the rounds,

53:31

Having an ideal elder because if I

53:33

had have had my very own idea

53:35

louder I would as boost to the

53:37

world differently. And if my parents

53:39

had a very own ideological elders, your life

53:41

in Australia would have a different setting. And

53:44

then. Ever since then

53:46

I has I sent south. Who

53:50

I am of, where I come from, That.

53:53

Is unshakable. I

53:55

saw that some other folks in the

53:57

experience. Particularly.

53:59

Those. who took

54:02

the ketamine while

54:05

engaging in the psychodrama experience

54:08

that it actually allowed them to

54:10

open up to the

54:12

experience as a somatic

54:16

emotional exploration

54:19

rather than a cognitive mechanistic

54:23

experiment. And what I

54:25

also saw for those folks was that when it

54:27

came to the receding of

54:29

ideal parents, their

54:32

psyche was

54:34

actually open to taking it

54:37

in. And

54:41

I remember for one person he actually said,

54:43

oh I can actually tell if the ketamine

54:45

is beginning to wear off because I'm starting

54:47

to doubt the ideal mother. And

54:51

I've experienced other people saying that in

54:53

their psychodrama experiences where there hasn't been

54:55

ketamine there where they get the ideal

54:57

parent and they're like, I can't trust

54:59

this or I'm skeptical of this or

55:02

it's not quite landing. And

55:06

the psychedelic medicine

55:09

allows for our

55:11

protective parts to stand to one side

55:13

in such a way that we can

55:15

actually take in the

55:18

re-imprinting that's available. Can

55:20

I ask a follow-up question about that? Sure.

55:24

So in that situation when you said

55:26

low dose intramuscular

55:28

ketamine, are people away

55:30

in a psychedelic

55:33

experience or are they

55:35

like fully knowing

55:37

still where they are, what they're doing? Because

55:40

the assumption and expectation

55:43

that I would have based on

55:45

my own psychedelic experiences that were

55:47

all recreational and

55:50

many decades ago but

55:52

not current are only,

55:54

I've never experienced a psychedelic experience

55:56

where you aren't like not

55:59

really here. anymore.

56:01

You don't get to use

56:03

dosages when you're recreational using drugs, you don't

56:10

have access to that. Yes,

56:12

so yeah it's based on the dosing. So

56:14

there is a blast yourself off into the

56:16

stratosphere dose of ketamine. There's also the anesthetic

56:20

dose of ketamine

56:22

where you're not here at all.

56:24

Okay. And then there are the lower doses.

56:26

So what happens is each

56:29

person speaks with the medical provider

56:31

who's on-site and we titrate the

56:33

dose accordingly for that person and

56:35

then we titrate up depending

56:37

on what is the psycholytic

56:40

dose for that individual. And

56:43

the beauty about intramuscular ketamine is

56:46

that in a sense it's

56:48

actually very clean in air quotes

56:50

meaning that it lasts between 20

56:52

to 40 minutes. Okay.

56:54

You feel a plateau, if you

56:56

need a bump you can ask

56:58

for another dose to bump up

57:02

the effects of the ketamine. That's

57:04

helpful to know. Yes. I mean

57:06

I don't think you know I don't know

57:09

it's still kind of new even

57:11

though many people are very deeply

57:14

immersed in the psychedelic assisted

57:16

work. It's still generally

57:18

new to a lot of people. So thank

57:21

you for explaining that. You're very

57:23

welcome. Yeah, there's a you

57:25

know on the last

57:30

night of that particular retreat we actually

57:32

had the high dose experience and that

57:36

was wonderful but for me

57:38

it was like oh yeah

57:40

I'm just tripping balls. This

57:42

is wonderful but it didn't

57:45

have the psychotherapeutic of the experience

57:48

for me. And

57:51

yet what was so powerful about the high-dose

57:53

experience because there are other folks in the

57:55

space who didn't have such a pleasant high-dose

57:57

experience. The therapeutic part is actually

58:00

actually when you're coming out and

58:02

you've got your friends around you and you've

58:04

got your heart teachers there and you've got people

58:06

that you can land into irrespective

58:09

of whether the experience is pleasant or

58:11

unpleasant. Yeah.

58:13

And that in and of itself is

58:15

really powerful. Something

58:18

so deep about trust in this

58:20

whole thing we're talking about today,

58:22

just something so deep about trusting

58:26

yourself and others, which

58:29

I think with attachment injuries,

58:33

trust is what is broken, like trust

58:35

in other humans

58:37

and yourself. Yes.

58:42

Yeah. I think Bessel says it in

58:44

the Bodyteach for School about how trauma

58:47

survivors are spoiled

58:49

because they're in a landscape. Yeah.

58:53

And so to

58:55

recognize that the

58:59

intrapsychic corollary of secure attachment or insecure

59:02

attachment is that I

59:06

am avoidant with parts of myself.

59:09

I am anxious towards parts of

59:12

myself. I

59:14

am in a push pull with

59:16

parts of myself. And

59:19

yet I have these adaptive parts that move through

59:21

the world as if I am securely

59:24

attached to myself, despite

59:27

my childhood. And

59:29

yet the closer people get to me, the

59:31

more my own internal conflicts

59:33

start to express relationally.

59:41

And so to go back to

59:43

the, to

59:46

the map that was imprinted

59:48

upon us and to change that

59:50

map, is

59:55

incredibly powerful. Linda,

59:57

I'm so grateful to you for sharing.

1:00:01

Your. Amends

1:00:03

with some and. So.

1:00:08

Much of what you've learned. In

1:00:10

the way that you're able to. Describe.

1:00:15

It all and synthesize at

1:00:17

all so clearly making really

1:00:19

complex thing things sound. Simple.

1:00:23

And understandable. I really am

1:00:25

so grateful that you were.

1:00:28

Able to come back again today and and

1:00:30

spend time with me. And

1:00:34

our audience of course, but that's.

1:00:36

Selfish Lakes sudden it over

1:00:38

me. Pilloried! they

1:00:40

thank you for the opportunity

1:00:43

n o either they slow

1:00:45

much lower prices about and.

1:00:47

It's like a journalist judge says. In

1:00:50

the tradition of of El Pais

1:00:52

soil and a wide Bissell has

1:00:54

shifted it to a jury film

1:00:56

or an attachment in the Wiser

1:00:58

which myself in some other colleagues

1:01:00

are they taking that would ensue

1:01:02

into heirloom to unity. And

1:01:04

you know evolving the work, reshaping

1:01:07

the woods and they that still

1:01:09

exciting be collins. Because.

1:01:12

Truly is adaptation. And

1:01:14

so is resilient. I'm

1:01:17

grateful for what you're doing and let

1:01:19

me just ask real quick as we

1:01:22

do have to stop. But are you

1:01:24

teaching psycho drama? Structures or

1:01:26

anywhere or is or anywhere.

1:01:28

That people can learn from you

1:01:30

about that in addition to people

1:01:33

working with you as a client.

1:01:35

Am on not yet teaches. Package

1:01:37

on a success however I am

1:01:40

Sicily tidy workshops at this a.

1:01:42

Time. Until either a full with

1:01:44

the south the between end up

1:01:47

between eight and eleven pitches, the

1:01:49

Prince that would shop and we

1:01:51

live together in a residential Sol

1:01:53

experience. We ate together and then

1:01:55

we we did what together and

1:01:57

I'd civically. as bullock's

1:02:00

who bring their friends or bring the people

1:02:02

in their life so that there's

1:02:04

an element of container that's already there

1:02:07

rather than generating people who

1:02:09

don't know each other to any earth.

1:02:11

If you come with someone or if

1:02:13

five of the folks people

1:02:15

who already know each other and are committed to

1:02:19

this, you know, to the self-worth

1:02:21

and there's a container that's already there

1:02:25

in such a way that we can build upon

1:02:27

that. Mm-hmm Yes,

1:02:30

and I yeah, and then when other people step

1:02:33

into it, there's that sense of ah you

1:02:36

know, there's a there's a

1:02:38

trust that's already there and so

1:02:41

folks can contact

1:02:43

me via my website www.lindall-tie.com

1:02:45

and send

1:02:49

in an inquiry form to be placed

1:02:51

on a wait list for the

1:02:54

next time that I offer this and and

1:02:57

if folks could ask or stipulate whether

1:03:00

they would prefer a BIPOC only space

1:03:02

that would be really helpful because

1:03:04

I do have folks because they

1:03:07

would prefer a BIPOC only space. Mm-hmm

1:03:11

Yeah, then we can we can see

1:03:13

what we can make happen. I already know who i'm

1:03:15

gonna bring Thank

1:03:17

you, Linda. Thank you deeply for what you do in the

1:03:20

world and for

1:03:28

being here today and for

1:03:31

teaching us about this I'm very

1:03:33

grateful for you. You're so

1:03:35

welcome, Loni. You're so so

1:03:37

welcome Thank

1:03:40

you for listening to Therapy Chat with

1:03:43

your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC.

1:03:46

For For more

1:03:48

information, please visit

1:03:51

therapychatpodcast.com.