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1:44

are no girls on the internet as a production of

1:46

IHART radio and Unboss Creative. I'm

1:48

Bridget Todd and this is There Are

1:50

No Girls on the Internet. Welcome

1:53

to There Are No Girls on the Internet where we explore

1:55

the world of IHART radio. the

2:00

intersections of identity, social media and

2:02

technology. And y'all, I

2:04

paid one week for rounding up

2:07

the news and we get the

2:09

big update. That is the big

2:11

TikTok update. Joey, were you surprised

2:14

to see that Biden signed legislation

2:16

essentially banning TikTok into law this

2:18

week? Like, I

2:21

want to say that I'm, I was surprised. But

2:23

at this point, I don't know.

2:25

I'm not, not

2:27

really, not really surprised. I feel like

2:30

who's to say what's happening with this

2:32

administration. So yeah, that's kind of how

2:35

I feel. So I want to tell folks like

2:37

what's going on. And then I'll get into sort

2:39

of my thoughts about it. So in case

2:41

you have not heard this week, President

2:43

Biden signed a foreign aid package that

2:45

includes a bill that would ban TikTok

2:47

if the China based parent company ByteDance,

2:49

sales to divest from the app and

2:51

sell it to a non Chinese owned

2:54

company. We've been talking about the potential

2:56

for a TikTok ban for a while. It sounds

2:58

like there was some like, very

3:00

serious political maneuvering

3:03

to get where we are today.

3:05

So earlier this year, house lawmakers

3:07

overwhelmingly voted in favor the bill

3:09

called the protecting Americans from Foreign

3:11

Adversary Controlled Applications Act, when it

3:13

was brought as like a standalone

3:15

measure, with a shorter time frame

3:17

for ByteDance to sell TikTok. So that time

3:20

frame was six months. It seemed

3:22

like that bill, even though a lot of

3:24

people in the house

3:26

were like, yes, this bill, like it

3:28

passed overwhelmingly, it seemed like

3:30

it might have had trouble passing in the

3:32

Senate, like key Senate leaders were pretty noncommittal

3:34

about it, some even signaled that they might

3:36

not vote for it. So the

3:39

way to get this TikTok legislation through

3:41

then became bundling it

3:43

into the high priority foreign aid

3:46

package, which essentially forced the Senate

3:48

to take up the issue earlier

3:50

than it probably would have otherwise, right. So how

3:53

this worked was that in addition

3:55

to separate votes on aid packages

3:57

for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan, while

4:00

lawmakers were also voting on the

4:02

21st Century Peace Through Strength Act,

4:04

which was sort of like a

4:06

grab bag of popular national

4:08

security measures that Slate reports included things

4:10

like sales to seize frozen

4:12

Russian assets or the ability to impose

4:15

sanctions on fentanyl traffickers and a lot

4:17

more sort of like national security stuff.

4:20

And that the Protecting Americans from

4:22

Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, aka

4:24

the TikTok legislation, was sort of

4:27

bundled within that larger legislation. In

4:29

order to get aid for any of these countries, senators

4:32

had to vote for the entire package, which

4:35

included the TikTok bill. So that's kind of

4:37

how we got to where we are right

4:39

now, where in earlier episodes, Joey,

4:41

you and I were like, oh, maybe it'll happen. Like

4:43

maybe the Senate will pass it. I guess we're going

4:46

to discuss it. We'll see how we went from that

4:48

to like, oh, now it is signed into law. It

4:53

feels like the kind of thing that shouldn't

4:55

happen in a functioning democracy, I will say.

4:57

Like I don't, it feels like the kind

4:59

of thing that maybe we shouldn't just have

5:01

like a grab

5:03

bag of different legislation that has to

5:05

all be passed together, which all

5:08

on its own is open to

5:10

scrutiny. But

5:12

yeah, the Peace Through Strength

5:14

Act too, like that, I've

5:17

not wanted to say things sound like they're like

5:19

1984-esque, but that is a 1984 type law name.

5:21

Like are you serious? Like, I don't know.

5:29

And yeah, I will say, I mean, like

5:31

you said, I will admit I

5:33

honestly did not think this was going to

5:35

pass. I thought the Biden

5:38

administration currently is facing a

5:40

lot of scrutiny about a lot of different

5:42

issues and a lot of different issues, particularly

5:44

that young people are paying attention to. You

5:46

know, I would have thought this maybe would

5:48

have been a little bit less priority for

5:51

them, but guess

5:53

not. Yeah, that is so I want to

5:55

get into that because I feel like that

5:58

is really coloring a lot of the conversation. is

6:00

like that exact sentiment. And I feel

6:02

like, I think I've said this on

6:05

the show before, that I thought

6:08

that we would see a TikTok ban in 2024.

6:11

Like I was, that was on my bingo card

6:13

of legislation that I thought was gonna happen. However,

6:15

I think the fact that

6:17

we were talking about this standalone legislation

6:20

and then we're talking about it as

6:22

bundled in these foreign aid packages, like

6:25

I guess I'm surprised by how it ended up

6:27

happening, how quickly it happened. I thought we had

6:29

a lot more time, but here we are. So

6:32

in the previous version of this standalone

6:34

legislation, ByteDance had six months to sell

6:36

TikTok to a non-Chinese owner. But the

6:38

legislation that Biden just signed into law

6:41

this week extends that timeline. So the

6:43

new law would allow TikTok to continue

6:45

to operate in the US if ByteDance

6:48

sold it within 270 days or

6:50

about nine months, a timeframe that Biden

6:52

could extend up to a year. In

6:55

case you're wondering, this timeline puts the date

6:57

of sale and whatever happens after that sale,

7:00

after the election in November, which

7:02

I cannot imagine is by coincidence.

7:05

Wonder why he picked that date, you know?

7:10

So lawmakers are really

7:12

going out of their way to try to make

7:14

sure that people don't think of this as

7:16

a TikTok ban specifically. They're like, TikTok

7:19

ban? What are you talking about? Like we love

7:21

TikTok. We don't wanna keep TikTok from people.

7:23

So Virginia Democrat Mark Warner, who was one

7:25

of the lawmakers who was really pushing the

7:28

legislation said, I wanna make clear

7:30

to all Americans, this is not an effort

7:32

to take your voice away. Many Americans, particularly

7:34

young Americans are rightfully skeptical. At the end

7:37

of the day, they've not seen what

7:39

Congress has seen. They've not been

7:41

in the classified briefings that Congress has held,

7:43

which have delved more deeply into some

7:45

of the threats posed by foreign control

7:48

of TikTok. But what they have seen

7:50

beyond even this bill is Congress has

7:52

failure to enact meaningful consumer protections on

7:54

big tech and may cynically view this

7:56

as a diversion or worse, a concession

7:59

to US social. media platforms. To

8:01

those young Americans, Joey, I'm concerns

10:00

stemming from the app's Chinese ownership.

10:03

Specifically, they have talked about the

10:05

possibility of the Chinese government accessing

10:08

data of American users or

10:10

using the app and its very powerful

10:13

algorithm to spread propaganda or

10:15

influence elections and spread chaos.

10:17

As far as I

10:19

know, this is a little bit out of my wheelhouse, as

10:22

far as I know, to us, the

10:24

American people, that is largely theoretical.

10:26

They could potentially, they could do

10:28

this. It's not like we have a smoking

10:30

gun of them doing that on a wide scale. I'm

10:33

not in these classified briefings, so I have

10:35

no idea. But members of Congress are referring

10:37

to information that they say that they have

10:40

seen and heard in the security briefings about

10:42

the potential for TikTok to harm American interests.

10:44

But we just don't know about any of

10:46

that because the contents of these briefings are

10:49

not public. So we're just being told TikTok,

10:51

this app that you're using every

10:53

day that many of these elected officials,

10:56

Biden included, are using all the time. It is

10:59

this massive security threat. Just trust us. I think

11:01

the real issue is I think a lot of

11:03

these Congress people are just upset that they're not

11:05

getting the number of followers that they thought they

11:07

would get on TikTok. That's my theory. And

11:11

that's understandable. You know what? I get it. I've

11:13

been frustrated sometimes when I made a video that

11:15

I put a lot of effort into and I

11:17

wanted it to perform better. That's understandable.

11:21

If that's your reason for wanting to ban

11:23

TikTok, just say that. I think you'll get

11:25

a lot more people on your side. Listen,

11:27

I would be sympathetic. I tried TikTok and

11:29

TikTok for me was a flop. I

11:32

am not a TikTok girlie. It's just like, I

11:34

have to accept that about myself. So if they came out and

11:37

said that, I would be, they would have

11:39

my sympathy. I'd be like, oh, my TikTok

11:41

never do numbers either. I get it. We

11:44

all done there. So there is some talk

11:46

of the need for transparency into what these

11:48

lawmakers are saying that we don't

11:50

know. Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal

11:52

and Republican Senator Marsha Blackburn are

11:54

calling for TikTok briefings to be

11:57

declassified so that the government can

11:59

quote. better educate the public on

12:01

the need for urgent action. We are

12:03

deeply troubled by the information and concerns raised

12:05

by the intelligence community in recent classified briefings

12:08

to Congress. TikTok is a weapon

12:10

in the hands of the Chinese government and

12:12

poses an active risk to our democratic institutions

12:14

and national security," they wrote. Senator

12:17

Blumenthal and Blackburn, that is the

12:19

duo that also brought you the

12:21

Kids Online Safety Act. Oh, there we

12:23

go. I know. I

12:27

am very curious to see what, you

12:30

know what, I think actually, yeah, if they

12:32

do release this information, if they usually show the

12:34

public what actually is

12:36

the scary classified information that

12:39

is the reason they need to ban

12:41

TikTok. But knowing them and their history,

12:43

it's probably just like there were trans

12:45

people on the app. Yes, and like,

12:48

I think that you and I talked

12:50

about this. Blackburn specifically, earlier, in earlier

12:52

iterations of the Kids Online Safety Act,

12:55

was like, pretty explicitly when asked

12:57

like, oh, what's your beef, what's the internet?

12:59

Like, why do you wanna have this? Why do you wanna regulate

13:01

it in this way? She was like, oh, you know, we

13:03

were planning on using it to make

13:05

sure that content about trans identity

13:08

doesn't reach use. We wanna keep use

13:10

from that kind of unsafe information. And

13:12

then people were like, really?

13:14

And then she was like, oh no, no, I was misquoted.

13:16

I was misquoted. But it's like

13:18

a video. Like, you really weren't misquoted. I saw

13:20

you say it on a video with my eyes.

13:22

Guys, it was out of context. That

13:26

is really good. Like, I'm glad that

13:28

you added that. And honestly, when

13:31

it comes to something as

13:33

expansive and impactful as like

13:36

regulating the internet or regulating the social media

13:38

apps that we use, which by the way,

13:40

I don't wanna make it seem like I'm

13:42

like, oh, platforms should just

13:44

be able to do whatever they want. Like, that is

13:46

not how I feel. However, it does just

13:50

highlight that like, people like

13:52

Blackburn who have a really

13:54

clear public record of

13:57

how she feels and how she is going

13:59

to. use this kind

14:01

of internet legislation and regulation to

14:05

further marginalize and criminalize marginalized people. Like

14:07

we're not making that up. She says

14:09

that it is concerning to me that

14:11

these are the people who are being

14:13

tasked with making changes

14:15

and laws about how we

14:17

access or don't access the internet.

14:20

Like that on its face is really troubling

14:22

to me. Hi,

14:34

it's Bridget Todd, host of There Are No Girls

14:36

on the Internet. Listen, technology has

14:38

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at Rails to Trails. We've

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heard that right, a real person. Get

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the customer service you deserve with

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Discover. Limitations apply. See terms

15:34

at discovery.com/credit card. My

15:36

dad works in B2B marketing, but I never

15:38

really knew what that meant. Then one day

15:40

my dad came by my school for career

15:42

day and told everyone in my class he

15:44

was a big row as man.

15:47

Then he just kept saying things like,

15:49

the bigger the row as the better.

15:51

Over and over. My friends still laugh at

15:53

me to this day. I think

15:55

it means calculating a return on

15:57

ad spend. One thing's for me.

16:00

I'll be known as the Ro-As-Man's kid for the

16:02

rest of my days. Why

16:05

couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer? Why?

16:09

You ruined my life, Dad. Not

16:11

everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has the people

16:13

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16:17

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linkedin.com/customer to claim your credit. That's

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linkedin.com/customer. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn,

16:34

the place to be, to be. And

16:41

we're back. So

16:46

Biden signed this legislation. What happens now? Well,

16:50

probably for all of us and all of you listening,

16:53

nothing really in the short term. So first

16:55

of all, TikTok is not going anywhere for

16:57

at least a couple of months. The

17:00

countdown clock where they need to sell

17:02

has started, but like they have

17:04

eight months to do, to figure that out. So

17:06

it's not like TikTok's not going to work on your

17:08

phone right now. But even still,

17:11

this probably is the beginning of what

17:13

will be a complicated legal challenge. TikTok

17:15

has already signaled that they intend to

17:18

fight this legislation in the courts. TikTok's

17:20

chief executive, Sho Chu, said, rest

17:22

assured we are not going anywhere. We are confident and

17:24

we will keep fighting for your rights in the courts.

17:27

Side note, it is really interesting

17:30

to me how TikTok has framed

17:33

this as like, we are fighting

17:35

for your rights. Like I love

17:37

TikTok. I'm actually

17:39

wearing a TikTok sweatshirt right now that

17:41

I got from an event, which like is

17:44

not because I'm in the bag for big TikTok, although if they

17:46

wanted to pay me, no, I'm just kidding. No,

17:49

I don't take money from social media platforms, but

17:51

yeah. I

17:54

mean, nobody's made me a compelling offer. This sweatshirt is

17:56

very nice, but it's not going to cut it. I

18:00

think it's interesting how they've been able

18:03

to publicly frame this as like,

18:05

oh, we're not fighting for our

18:07

platform that we run and own

18:09

and make money from. We're fighting

18:11

for you and your rights. It's

18:13

an interesting framing, one that I

18:15

don't totally agree with, but I

18:17

get why they're framing it

18:20

that way. When I was

18:22

looking at the images from some of

18:24

the in-person rallies in support of TikTok,

18:26

TikTok had clearly given out signs for

18:29

folks to hold that would say like,

18:31

I'm one of the, however many TikTok

18:33

users there are in America who wants

18:35

my rights represented. They've really been able

18:37

to frame this as like, grassroots,

18:40

like we're just fighting for your rights kind

18:42

of thing. Like Airbnb,

18:44

I feel like really sets a playbook

18:46

for how to make it seem like,

18:49

oh, this isn't like a big tech

18:51

company advocating in this way. This is

18:53

like just local grassroots mom and pop

18:55

small businesses. You know what I'm saying?

18:58

Well, Bridget, it sounds like you

19:00

have some personal experiences that

19:03

Airbnb's organizing. I

19:05

do, I do. That

19:07

is a conversation for another day, but

19:10

I know quite a bit about it, actually.

19:12

Yeah, no, it has been strange though. I mean,

19:14

I understand why they're doing it.

19:17

It's a good, like, for

19:20

lack of a better word, propaganda technique to

19:22

get people to be on your side. And

19:25

I mean, I don't

19:27

fully agree with what they're saying, but at the

19:29

same time, it is a First Amendment

19:31

issue and it is

19:33

definitely strange. We're

19:37

in a very strange, I mean,

19:39

I don't know, we're walking around talking about

19:41

what is happening kind of on a larger

19:44

scale right now in the US regarding freedom

19:46

of speech and the fact that there have

19:48

been massive crackdowns on peaceful

19:50

protests and freedom of

19:52

speech happening across the country on

19:54

college campuses and, you know, beyond.

20:00

It is a weird

20:03

situation. It

20:05

is TikTok, not necessarily. They

20:10

don't have the best track record of

20:12

honoring that freedom of speech they're claiming

20:14

to be fighting for

20:16

right now, but maybe

20:19

they're turning a page. I don't know. So

20:21

it does sound like that TikTok is

20:24

going to be appealing this on First

20:26

Amendment, kind of free speech grounds. According

20:28

to the New York Times, the company

20:30

is expected to argue that a forced

20:32

sale of TikTok could violate its

20:34

users' free speech rights because a new

20:36

owner could potentially change the app's content

20:39

policies and reshape what users are able

20:41

to freely share and communicate about on the

20:43

platform. TikTok actually already

20:45

has some precedent for fighting bans

20:47

in the courts using exactly this

20:50

logic. And the platform has actually already

20:52

won similar First Amendment battles in the courts. Back

20:54

when Trump was president, he tried to force a

20:56

sale or a ban of the app in 2020,

20:59

but federal judges blocked that effort because it

21:01

would have had the effect of shutting down,

21:04

quote, a platform for expressive activity. We

21:06

talked about this on the show a while back,

21:08

but y'all might recall that Montana tried to ban

21:10

TikTok in the state last year because

21:12

of the app's Chinese ownership, but a

21:14

different federal judge ruled against that state law

21:17

for similar reasons. So far, there's

21:19

actually only been one state-level TikTok ban

21:21

that survived a court challenge. It was

21:23

super narrow. It only applied to state

21:25

employees in Texas, where the governor announced

21:27

a ban of the app on state

21:29

government devices and networks in 2022 because

21:32

of the Chinese ownership and related

21:34

data concerns. Professors at public universities

21:37

challenged that ban in the court, saying that

21:39

it actually blocked them from being able to

21:41

do research into the app, which actually, to

21:43

me, it only applied to state employees in

21:45

Texas, where the governor announced a ban of

21:48

the app on state government devices and networks

21:50

in 2022 because of

21:52

the Chinese ownership and related data

21:54

concerns. Professors at public universities challenged that ban

21:56

in the court, saying that it actually blocked them from being

21:58

able to do research into the app, blocked them

22:00

from being able to do research into the app, which

22:02

actually to me makes a lot of sense. A

22:05

federal judge upheld the state ban

22:07

in December, finding that it was

22:09

a reasonable restriction in light of

22:11

Texas's concerns and that narrow scope

22:13

only impacting state employees. So that

22:15

was the only time that one

22:17

of these bans was actually upheld

22:19

in the court. So there is

22:21

like a strong track record for

22:23

TikTok being able to successfully fight

22:25

these bans in the courts. Yeah,

22:27

yeah. I remember the Montana,

22:30

when we talked about the Montana ban,

22:33

that did

22:35

not work. And part

22:37

of the reason it didn't work is it's like, it

22:40

is like, surprise, surprise, it's hard to like ban

22:43

an app that people already have on their

22:45

phones or you can then go to another

22:47

state or have a VPN or whatever to

22:49

download. It's

22:51

really interesting because the Texas legislation

22:53

is the only one that I'm like, okay,

22:56

it is still ridiculous, but I get

22:59

where they're coming from with that. Like, okay, yeah,

23:01

sure. If it's a, the issue is like,

23:04

we're worried about the

23:06

Chinese government spying on the U.S.

23:08

Like, yeah, okay. If it's government

23:10

employees like that, I think is

23:13

more or less reasonable. Again, I still don't agree

23:15

with it because I think it is not

23:17

coming from any, A,

23:19

it's not coming from a reality.

23:22

And then B, it is still,

23:24

I think, in my opinion, a

23:26

freedom of speech infringement. But the

23:28

fact that like, I feel like, and maybe

23:31

this is me having like a, like a rosy

23:33

view of like the

23:35

pre-Trump administration sort of conversation around

23:37

this, but I feel like that is kind of

23:40

would be the most extreme legislation you would see

23:42

around this for a really long time. Like that

23:44

would kind of be the, what

23:46

would be like the more conservative

23:49

viewpoint for a while. And now it's just gone

23:51

so far that it's like, no, we're just going

23:53

to completely ban this app. Yeah,

23:55

that's actually what made me initially

23:57

pretty convinced that we would. see

24:00

a federal TikTok ban in our

24:02

in 2024 was because how many

24:04

different states were banning TikTok from

24:07

like government or public like public

24:09

university devices. I was like oh

24:11

this is happening pretty swiftly. That

24:14

seems to be like the like the the

24:16

there seems to be a pretty quick vibe shift around

24:18

this happening. That's what kind of initially made

24:21

me think like oh I think this might

24:23

this might actually be something that we see.

24:25

Yeah I think and I think again like like I

24:27

said I'm just just I don't

24:29

think it's a reasonable legislation

24:32

because yeah then that the element is

24:34

when you're just saying government you

24:37

know employees or property or whatever that does

24:39

also include yeah like public universities a lot

24:41

of things that aren't necessarily like the

24:45

government government. Right.

24:47

Yeah this is

24:50

it has been a weird road to get

24:52

here and here we are. Yeah and

24:55

I think it gets even weirder when

24:57

you ask the question of like okay

24:59

so the government will be forcing a

25:01

sale to a different owner that is

25:03

not based in China. Is

25:06

there a buyer like who would buy it and the

25:08

answer to that is like not clear.

25:11

TikTok has a pretty hefty price tag

25:13

so it's like not clear who could

25:15

even afford it. You know

25:17

my initial thought was like oh Elon Musk. I

25:19

feel like these guys don't really have money like

25:22

they say like I think you're a billionaire but

25:24

all your money is tied up in like lawsuits

25:26

and shit. No because my immediate reaction was also

25:28

that too. I was like oh no it's gonna

25:31

happen again and I was like wait he's still

25:33

paying off his bills for Twitter like no

25:35

no no we're good. I

25:37

think they should just we should like like they

25:39

should just keep like bringing the price down

25:41

like you know supply and demand that whole

25:43

thing. I think I think we can get a

25:47

there are no girls on

25:49

the internet controlled TikTok by

25:52

the end of the year if we oh my

25:54

god keep bringing the the price down. That's my

25:56

proposal Bridget. I think we should purchase TikTok.

25:58

Listeners let's Cool our money.

26:01

I mean, let's start a GoFundMe. Let's go. It's

26:04

funny you say this just yesterday. One

26:07

of my favorite disinformation reporters,

26:09

formerly of NBC, Ben Collins,

26:11

announced that him and his

26:13

buddies, this is gonna sound like a joke, but it's not,

26:16

they pooled their money and they bought

26:18

the onion. So that just happened. Something

26:20

similar. Wait, really? Yes,

26:23

I'm, hand to God, look

26:25

it up. Ben Collins, formerly

26:27

NBC disinformation reporter,

26:30

they was announced yesterday morning, like, oh,

26:33

GEO Media sold the onion. It's not clear to who

26:35

they sold it to. And I was like, oh, I've

26:37

never heard of this, this media conglomerate or like this

26:39

investor group. Wonder who that is. Later

26:42

that evening, Ben Collins was like, yeah, it

26:44

was me and my friends. We got together

26:46

and pulled our money from now. I'm the

26:49

CEO of the onion. We're bringing it back.

26:51

We're giving, we're rehiring everybody. We're allowing the

26:53

staff to control it, tune

26:55

in everybody. So that was like a

26:57

rare piece of like, in my book, good

27:00

media news, like good

27:03

people pooling their money and

27:06

actually buying a cool thing. Like it could happen.

27:09

I misunderstood you for a second. I

27:11

thought you meant like he was

27:13

doing disinformation. Like, oh,

27:16

no, no, he's a reporter. So he's like, oh no, I

27:18

don't know. Oh

27:20

my God, can you imagine that? Oh

27:22

my God, oh my God. If

27:25

you're like a bad actor who spreads this information

27:27

and you buy a well-known satire site, like

27:31

the possibilities are endless. That's how

27:33

we got X. So, Yeah,

27:36

it's so true. Like literally it

27:38

was because of like the, that

27:41

lumpy getting banned or whatever. Oh my

27:43

God. Yeah, no, that's

27:45

wow. So yeah, we

27:48

could, Tangoti, we could

27:50

own TikTok. It

27:53

would all unsubscribers. You guys get

27:55

a share of the,

27:58

I watched succession. I know how. this stuff

28:00

works. Yeah, we

28:03

could do it. You know, we're we're that's listen

28:05

if Elon Musk could do it, Joey, you and

28:07

you and I could certainly do it. We could

28:09

run we could run TikTok. I think we

28:11

do really good. We would definitely do better than

28:14

Elon Musk. Oh, I have no doubt. No doubt.

28:17

So probably not Elon

28:19

Musk buying TikTok. A

28:22

big American tech company like meta or Google.

28:24

They might have the money to afford

28:26

the like hefty price tag. But they

28:28

probably would not be able to purchase

28:30

it because of antitrust concerns. Right

28:33

now, meta is currently fighting a

28:35

federal trade commission lawsuit that alleges

28:37

that its purchase of WhatsApp and

28:39

Instagram violated US antitrust law. So

28:41

the FTC is like actively seeking

28:44

to break that company up. So

28:46

I don't think that Zuckerberg and

28:48

meta are going to like pile

28:50

on there right now. Back in

28:52

2020, there had been some lofty

28:54

talks of maybe Microsoft with some

28:57

involvement from the retailer Walmart, partnering

28:59

to buy TikTok. This is back when Donald Trump

29:01

was pushing for a sale. But it sounds like

29:03

those conversations like didn't really go anywhere. It could

29:06

be a private equity firm or a group

29:08

of investors. Former Trump

29:10

administration, Treasury Secretary, Steven

29:13

Mnuchin said that he wanted to put a group

29:15

of investors together to buy it like, what

29:17

a nightmare that would be. Like

29:20

a Trump or owning TikTok,

29:22

Elon Musk owning Twitter, Zuckerberg

29:25

owning Facebook, Oh, God.

29:29

Oh, I don't even want to think about that. That would be guys.

29:32

Tumblr is still out there. Yeah. Nobody

29:34

is like, I want someone to like

29:37

buy what like buy

29:41

Zenga and bring that back. Right? Like, like,

29:44

like, like, my big instead

29:46

of yeah, big instead of zagging. Well,

29:48

everybody's talking about these big platforms. Who's

29:50

bought who's buying up like the smaller

29:53

platforms to bring those back? Remember Bisco?

29:55

What happened to that? Like, I

29:57

remember that was one of the first like

30:00

aesthetics that was ever on my radar

30:02

like the VSCO girl aesthetic. Yeah,

30:05

yeah. R.I.P. VSCO

30:07

girl. R.I.P. VSCO girl. What happened to

30:09

VSCO? That's what, yeah. She had

30:11

her moment. She had her time. So

30:13

the entire thing is just very

30:15

messy and very complicated, especially

30:17

thinking through what it would actually

30:20

look like logistically for TikTok to

30:22

divest from Bice Dance. There

30:24

was just a recent report in the Financial

30:26

Times that spoke to two dozen current and

30:29

former employees that said that TikTok has only

30:31

become more deeply interwoven with Bice

30:33

Dance as tensions over the app's

30:35

ownership have escalated. The legislation

30:38

that Biden signed prohibits any connection

30:40

between TikTok and Bice Dance after

30:42

a sale. Yet, TikTok employees use

30:44

Bice Dance software in their communications. And

30:47

the company's employees are global with

30:49

executives in Singapore, Dublin, Los Angeles,

30:52

Mountain View, California, and elsewhere. So

30:54

it's unclear if Bice Dance would

30:56

actually even consider selling TikTok's entire

30:58

global footprint or just its U.S.-based

31:01

operations where it has about 7,000

31:03

employees. Like what it would actually

31:05

logistically look like for Bice Dance

31:07

to just sort of tether its

31:10

U.S.-based operations for TikTok, it's

31:12

like unclear and it seems like

31:14

it would be pretty complicated. And

31:17

because a big source of concern

31:19

is specifically TikTok's algorithm that controls

31:21

and dictates what American audiences see,

31:23

there was some talk of TikTok maybe trying

31:25

to move forward in the U.S. with

31:27

a version of TikTok that is not

31:29

controlled by an algorithm to see if

31:31

that changes things. But that would also

31:33

be pretty complicated. The app's recommendation algorithm,

31:35

which figures out what users like and

31:38

serves up content, is really a key

31:40

part of TikTok. It's kind of like

31:42

what makes TikTok TikTok. But Chinese

31:44

engineers work on that algorithm, which

31:46

Bice Dance owns. So untethering all

31:48

of that to move forward in

31:50

the U.S. might be kind of

31:52

tricky. I also read yesterday that

31:54

Bice Dance said that they would actually prefer

31:57

to shut TikTok down in the U.S. rather

31:59

than sell it if the Chinese

32:01

company exhausts all legal options to fight

32:03

legislation to ban the platform. So they would just be like,

32:05

oh, we would rather just like not

32:08

operate in the US, shut it down there and

32:10

keep going. And honestly, like, you might be thinking

32:12

like, oh, that would be a

32:14

bad financial move. But I believe that that's only 25%

32:16

of their revenue. Like, I don't

32:19

think that TikTok is a

32:21

huge part of the Biden's

32:24

entire portfolio. Yeah. And

32:26

they're also I mean, not to

32:28

diminish the like, dying

32:30

power of the US and how like important

32:33

that is on a kind of economic scale,

32:35

but also like, there's there's there

32:37

are many other countries out there that probably

32:39

would continue to use TikTok. And I don't

32:41

I don't know, I feel like they're gonna

32:43

be fine. Yeah, I feel I feel exactly the

32:45

same way. And, you know, something that you were

32:47

saying earlier is that, you know, Mark

32:50

Warner in his statement was like, Oh, well,

32:52

this is I don't want people to physically

32:54

think we're just like in the bag for

32:56

big tech. But this is a big win

32:59

for American big tech companies. I

33:01

always bristle at the framing of this

33:03

as like a business story, but so

33:05

much more. But it doesn't need to

33:08

be said that Facebook has been trying

33:10

to destroy TikTok for kind of a

33:12

while. Both might recall that Facebook reportedly

33:15

tried to buy TikTok predecessor that lip

33:17

syncing app musically back in 2016. But

33:19

by dance is ended up acquiring it

33:21

instead. And that became TikTok. So they

33:23

tried to buy it didn't work. When

33:26

that didn't work. Facebook did

33:28

that thing that tech companies do, which

33:31

is like, I will create a similar

33:33

but less good version of my competitor.

33:35

So in 2020, Facebook launches reels, which

33:37

was which as you know, was like

33:39

that short form video app. For a

33:41

while, it was essentially just like identical

33:44

to TikTok, only the content that you would see

33:46

there was like a couple weeks old, like my

33:48

friends who didn't have TikTok, they'd always be like,

33:50

Oh, look at this real I thought it will

33:52

be like the thing that the thing that was

33:54

like hot on TikTok like a week ago. You

33:56

know what I mean? Right? Yeah, I and

33:58

I like like a group. channel, Instagram, a

34:00

couple of my friends that are all lovely and this

34:02

is not a dig at them, that they will often

34:05

send videos and I'm like, I saw

34:07

that a month ago. But thank

34:10

you for sharing it again. Joey

34:13

thinks your reels are wet. I'm

34:16

sorry, I'm calling you behind

34:19

the times or whatever. But

34:21

nobody responds to my tiktok DM.

34:24

So that's what you got. So

34:26

reels has grown pretty steadily, thanks

34:28

to its aggressive integration with Instagram.

34:30

Like when you scroll Instagram, you're

34:33

basically just like getting sort of reels. So they

34:35

definitely have done some trickery there to like, force

34:38

us all to consume reels, whether

34:40

we want to or not, whether it's against our will or not. Tiktok

34:43

has maintained its hold on younger users

34:45

while also making inroads with adults. For

34:48

a long time, people talked about Tiktok as like,

34:50

oh, the dancing app for kids. That

34:53

was never even really true even back then.

34:55

But like, it is certainly not true now.

34:57

The majority of people on Tiktok,

34:59

it's young people and it's like people

35:01

in their 30s. And so it's this idea that it's

35:03

like just an app as popular with kids is just

35:05

not true. Right. Also, again, I'm

35:10

Gen Z and I'm in my 20s.

35:12

Like there's plenty of people that are Gen Z that are

35:14

like young

35:16

adults now. Yeah. Also use

35:18

Tiktok. Absolutely. So we

35:21

did a podcast episode about

35:23

this with Tiktok researcher, Abby

35:25

Richards, but basically Facebook's big

35:28

thing here was really successfully

35:30

demonizing Tiktok. Mark

35:32

Zuckerberg talked about Tiktok in a

35:34

speech he made at Georgetown University in 2019. He

35:37

said, while our services like

35:39

WhatsApp are used by protesters and

35:41

activists everywhere due to strong encryption

35:43

and privacy protections on

35:45

Tiktok, the Chinese app growing quickly

35:48

around the world mentions of these

35:50

protests are censored even in the

35:52

US. Is that the internet we

35:54

want? Which first of all, if you are a

35:56

protester, you're probably using signal and this

35:58

is me like, again, I'm not being paid by

36:00

signal. If you're a protestor or an

36:02

activist, use signal. Don't use WhatsApp. I don't

36:04

know anybody that is like,

36:07

like a activist, like really, really

36:09

out there, activist like that uses

36:11

WhatsApp to talk about like organizing.

36:14

Also, yeah, like, wow.

36:16

Famous, famous supporter of

36:19

protesters and activists everywhere.

36:21

Mark Zuckerberg. Yes. Friend

36:25

to the activist. Friend to

36:28

the protester. Mark Zuckerberg. Freedom

36:30

of speech advocate. I what?

36:33

That it? Yeah, that's ridiculous. And of

36:35

course, it's not like a platform like

36:37

Facebook or Sreds, whatever suppressed content about

36:40

politics or protests or social movements. Like

36:42

they would never, like what if they

36:44

would never do that? There definitely was

36:46

an autographic going around Instagram that I

36:48

reposted. A lot of my friends reposted

36:51

about how to go into your settings

36:53

and turn off the automatic things that

36:55

like limited political, quote unquote, political content

36:57

on everybody's, you know, for you,

36:59

Paige, or whatever it's called on

37:01

Instagram. Their Instagram

37:04

stories or whatever, just

37:06

coincidentally, it's happening now and absolutely has

37:08

nothing to do with anything

37:11

happening in real

37:13

life in college

37:15

campuses right now. And, you know, these

37:18

protesters that Mark Zuckerberg is like best

37:20

friends with, they definitely, definitely

37:23

this has nothing to do with that. Yeah,

37:25

absolutely. So, you know, we talked about this

37:27

on the show before that the Washington

37:30

Post in 2022 reported that Facebook

37:32

had been paying this

37:34

major Republican consulting firm called targeted

37:37

victory to push local stories and

37:39

op-eds that really painted TikTok as

37:41

this danger to society and a

37:43

danger to young people specifically. They

37:46

talked about like all of these

37:48

dangerous viral TikTok trends, many

37:50

of which happened to actually have

37:52

started or been spread on Facebook. So it

37:54

was just this tactic to be like, oh,

37:56

TikTok is so dangerous when the things that

37:58

they were calling out. Facebook

38:01

either also spread or were the

38:03

originators of. A lot

38:05

of these narratives really caught on with

38:07

lawmakers who then raised them in congressional

38:09

hearings. There was also this piece in

38:12

Politico about how TikTok kind of misplayed

38:14

the Washington lobbyist game, counting on their

38:16

large number of users to prevent Congress

38:18

from actually taking action while not meaningfully

38:20

responding to these national security concerns that

38:22

lawmakers are bringing up until it was

38:24

kind of too late. I do think

38:26

that TikTok, because so many people use

38:28

it and because people feel strongly about

38:30

it, I think that they really relied

38:33

on that, like, oh, that alone is going

38:35

to be enough to defend

38:39

us from these claims and to keep a strong

38:41

footing in the United States. I think

38:43

they perhaps misplayed their hand there. Hi,

38:56

it's Bridget Todd. Host of there are no girls

38:58

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on demand. So

41:08

I want to talk about something that you brought up which

41:10

is like what I actually think is

41:12

going on here. So we've talked a ton

41:15

on the podcast about how I think that

41:17

lawmakers like want to look

41:19

tough on big tech while also

41:21

remaining very cozy financially with American

41:23

big tech companies. I

41:25

also think that they want to look tough on China. So

41:27

this is sort of like a two birds one stone kind

41:30

of thing. But I also think

41:32

that increasingly, this is really about

41:34

young people and support for Palestine.

41:37

The Washington Post has a really interesting piece that

41:39

will put in the show notes, basically breaking this

41:41

down. They write when congressional Republicans

41:43

this month repeated their long running calls

41:45

for a nationwide ban on Tick Tock,

41:47

they highlighted a data point that they

41:49

said was proof of the app sinister

41:51

underpinning. A number of Tick

41:53

Tock videos with hashtag free Palestine

41:55

is dramatically higher than those with

41:57

hashtag stand with Israel. The gap they

42:00

said, offered evidence that

42:02

the app owned by Chinese tech

42:04

giant ByteDance was being used to

42:06

boost propaganda and brainwash American viewers.

42:10

So what like, I

42:12

think that's really kind of a big piece

42:16

of this why is why we

42:18

are seeing this anti-TikTok legislation being

42:21

bolstered, particularly right now. But

42:24

as that Washington Post piece points out, Facebook

42:27

and Instagram, TikTok's US-based rivals

42:29

show a remarkably similar gap.

42:32

On Facebook, the free Palestine hashtag is

42:34

found on more than 11 million posts,

42:36

39 times more than those with hashtags

42:38

and with Israel. On Instagram,

42:40

the pro-Palestinian hashtag is found on 6

42:42

million posts, 26 times

42:44

more than the pro-Israel hashtag. So

42:47

I think that what's going

42:49

on here is that I think

42:51

lawmakers are seeing people being supportive

42:53

of Palestine, particularly young people. And

42:55

they're like, what explains this?

42:57

It has to be TikTok, it has

43:00

to be foreign meddling or manipulation. It

43:02

has to be like the Chinese government

43:04

sowing chaos and confusion and manipulation with

43:06

our youth. And I really think that

43:09

is a big part of why we

43:11

are seeing these renewed efforts to ban

43:13

the app. Exactly. Yeah, I

43:16

think talking about this

43:18

too, and this is kind

43:20

of this has been an ongoing conversation is that the

43:24

political establishment and kind

43:26

of like the powers that be for a while

43:29

have been very shocked by this fact that quote

43:32

unquote, all of a sudden, I

43:35

don't think that's actually the case, but like

43:37

all of a sudden, all of these young

43:39

people are being

43:42

a little bit more skeptical about

43:44

the kind of like established narrative

43:47

of what is happening in Palestine

43:49

and what's happening in Gaza. And

43:51

I think, you know, I

43:54

think a lot of politicians

43:56

and a lot of these officials are

43:58

have been sort of surprised. and

44:00

taken aback by the protests. Again,

44:02

I don't think they should be because I think,

44:04

like, hey,

44:07

if you look at history, there is

44:09

a lot of people, especially with

44:11

the protests happening right now, have brought up like Kent

44:13

State and brought up a lot of the Vietnam

44:15

protests and sort of the similarities. It's like there

44:17

isn't, it's not like there isn't a precedent for

44:19

this. And then also, like, from

44:22

their perspective, it's like, oh, it's these apps

44:24

that are doing propaganda. But it's like, no,

44:26

a lot of what is actually happening is

44:28

just that there are videos

44:31

of what's happening on the ground in

44:33

Gaza that are going around social media.

44:35

There are families that are trapped. There

44:37

are people that are on the ground. There are reporters

44:39

that are on the ground. There are that are able

44:41

to get that information to a wider audience because of

44:44

social media and are able

44:46

to, you know, there are other kind of

44:48

options other than just sort of these

44:50

legacy media companies that are providing

44:52

information about what's happening. And

44:54

that is making a lot of people question

44:58

the sort of narrative that they've been told about the

45:00

situation. That is making a lot of people want to

45:02

look more into these. And

45:04

I think for a lot of people, like

45:06

the patterns are sort of clicking. It is

45:08

sort of like making sense that like, hey,

45:10

you know, this isn't like a new thing.

45:12

This is, you know, I don't know, I

45:15

was growing up in sort of like

45:17

the aftermath of the like Iraq and

45:19

Afghanistan wars and like it's interesting, like

45:22

people keep pointing to Vietnam, but like that

45:24

was really not that long ago. Like, you

45:26

know, the Iraq

45:29

war, going into the Iraq war over a

45:31

like complete lie was not that long ago.

45:33

Like people remember that, people are responding to

45:36

that. Young people remember that. Cause like, again,

45:38

like myself, a lot of us like grew

45:40

up in the aftermath of that. I

45:44

will say, I think a lot of this

45:46

argument drives me insane, like

45:48

I'm not surprised by it. Cause I do think

45:50

it is like the easiest route for a lot

45:52

of these politicians to go is just the like,

45:55

oh, it's just, it's the kids that are wrong or

45:58

they don't, they're just, you know. brainwash.

46:01

There's no way that these young

46:04

people that are studying at universities and

46:06

are paying attention to what's happening in

46:08

the news and are putting together, you

46:11

know, the puzzle pieces of

46:13

like, hey, what we're seeing

46:15

isn't new. A lot of this has happened before and

46:17

it's happened repeatedly in different

46:20

contexts. Like, there's kind of

46:22

this idea that like, oh, they don't, they don't understand anything.

46:24

They just don't get it. They must be being

46:26

brainwashed. That's the only explanation

46:28

because if there's any,

46:31

like, any other explanation would force

46:33

me to acknowledge the fact that like,

46:36

yeah, a lot of this is very fucked

46:39

up. A lot of this is like,

46:42

you know, like, it's easier to kind

46:44

of be patronizing to people than it

46:46

is to give them credit for how smart

46:48

and thoughtful people actually can be and the fact

46:50

that, you know, what is happening

46:52

right now is very, very clearly wrong

46:55

and fucked up and people are not

46:57

happy about it. And I

47:01

think, yeah, it's easier to say, say like, oh, well,

47:03

there's being brainwashed. Let's stick with the status quo than

47:05

it is to actually want to make any change. Yeah.

47:08

And I think like that, like,

47:10

that's why that statement from Mark Warner hit

47:12

me so weird because it's like,

47:15

ultimately, I think that you're exactly

47:17

right. These, these arguments to me

47:19

sound very limiting to young people.

47:21

They found very condescending

47:23

to young people. It makes it seem like

47:25

young people are not smart enough or with

47:27

it enough to look around at what's going

47:30

on and make an assessment when they absolutely

47:32

are. It just feels very callous to me.

47:34

And I think like,

47:36

given that we're in an election year and

47:38

we're hearing lots of elected officials and politicians

47:40

who want your vote, like, signaling like, oh,

47:42

yeah, we want the youth vote. It's like

47:44

they're saying we want y'all to vote, but

47:46

we don't think you're smart enough to understand what's going

47:48

on in the world. And we're also not

47:50

gonna listen. Exactly. Like, I mean, I, a lot

47:54

of people have pointed out like, calling for

47:56

a ceasefire is the bare minimum.

47:58

And what The Biden

48:00

administration just finally made a

48:03

statement kind of calling for a

48:05

ceasefire a couple of weeks ago, right? I

48:09

think this is, they

48:12

talk a lot of talk about how

48:14

important the youth vote is or how

48:17

important marginalized groups are or whatever to

48:19

this election. And then they're doing nothing

48:21

to actually address what people are asking

48:23

for and what people are. And

48:26

yeah, no, I'm sorry if you

48:28

are, actively

48:31

suppressing the freedom of speech

48:33

of the group that you are trying to get to vote for

48:35

you. And then you're like to the point where you are sending

48:38

like the cops to go mass

48:40

arrest people for peacefully

48:42

protesting. Like either

48:45

you're just stupid and short-sighted or like you want

48:47

to lose. Like I don't know what to tell

48:49

you at that point. Yeah,

48:51

and something else that

48:53

you said is that this idea

48:56

that, oh, well certainly this is

48:58

coming from manipulation via TikTok, like

49:01

this is, young people are feeling this way

49:03

all of a sudden. And that's just not

49:05

true. Young Americans have consistently

49:07

shown support for Palestinians in Pew Research

49:09

surveys, including in a poll in 2014,

49:12

four years before TikTok ever launched in

49:14

the United States. And so this idea

49:17

that like, oh, it's just TikTok

49:19

manipulating young people with their algorithm. How do

49:21

you have to account for the fact that

49:23

younger people have consistently shown support for Palestinians

49:26

even before TikTok was ever a thing here?

49:29

Exactly, exactly. I mean, I don't like,

49:31

I will say as somebody

49:33

who was, was

49:36

in college before

49:39

TikTok really took off, but like, kind of

49:41

like literally like right before that time, like

49:43

this was, it wasn't like this, again, it

49:45

wasn't like this appeared on a nowhere. These

49:47

were conversations that were happening. These

49:51

were like, there were,

49:55

the efforts to, for the

49:57

camp, the college that I went to, there were a lot of major

49:59

efforts. efforts to get them to divest from

50:01

fossil fuel companies and also

50:04

a lot of these companies

50:06

that were making

50:09

weapons, that were actively doing... The

50:13

companies that are doing the stuff that is

50:15

now being brought... Now

50:18

I think has reached a wider audience.

50:21

Again, it's

50:23

not like it came out of nowhere and I think

50:25

anybody that has paid attention to the news

50:28

or to current events or to contemporary

50:32

politics or global politics could tell you that

50:34

and could tell you that none of this

50:36

is new and none of this is just

50:38

appearing out of nowhere. But

50:41

it's a very convenient narrative for the

50:43

people that want to keep up the

50:45

status quo that this has just popped

50:47

out of nowhere and it's TikTok's fault

50:49

clearly. Yeah. And

50:51

I think it really... I

50:53

was there for a lot of that. I

50:56

got my start as

50:58

somebody who was a leftist with

51:01

campus organizing. That was like I

51:03

was in high school when I

51:05

was in, I think, 10th

51:08

grade when 9-11 happened and

51:11

anti-war organizing was just

51:14

like... That's when that became a

51:16

thing for me. And so it was in high school when all

51:18

that was popping off and I was just starting... It

51:20

was like my political

51:22

or radical consciousness awakening

51:25

and I was at the exact right age for it. I

51:28

will not sit here and tell you that I had the perfect

51:31

praxis, that everything I ever

51:33

did was well thought out,

51:35

smart, logical, blah, blah, blah.

51:38

I mean, I was 19 and I was... In

51:41

19, you weren't a perfect political... Yeah,

51:45

it was 19 and I was high all

51:47

the time. And I guess I say that

51:50

to say like, so for me it was

51:52

anti-war organizing. It was School

51:54

of the Americas Watch organizing. Like, yeah,

51:56

that was a big... part

52:00

of what an institution.

52:02

I am morbidly fascinated by

52:05

the School of the Americas and all the very,

52:07

very terrible offerings. It is. Somebody

52:09

needs to do a podcast on it because it is wild. I

52:14

think there was a Behind the Basteries

52:16

episode about School of the Americas in

52:19

particular that was one of those things

52:21

that got me like on some research spiral

52:23

about it. Nice

52:25

plug for our podcast cousins

52:27

over at Cool Zone. But

52:30

yeah, I say this to say that it's

52:33

hard for me to look at what's happening

52:35

right now on college campuses and

52:37

also look at the conversation happening around

52:39

TikTok and not be

52:41

really concerned. Like I, young

52:44

people especially, need to be

52:46

able to express themselves politically

52:48

and to have places where

52:50

they can learn about their

52:52

political selves and express that. I would

52:54

not be who I am today if I did

52:56

not have that space to figure it out and

52:58

to figure out what that looks like. Yeah, I

53:00

also want to add because I think, Bridget, I

53:03

think we've had very similar experiences with

53:05

this and something that I know has

53:07

come up and I'm not going to say

53:09

what this group is because I don't

53:12

want to give them any more attention. There is

53:14

a group that targets

53:16

and doctors, students

53:18

and university faculty that

53:20

do that support Palestine

53:23

or support or they have a

53:26

very broad definition of what being

53:29

quote unquote anti-Israel or in their words

53:31

like anti-Semitic is. I

53:33

like literally had a Jewish history professor

53:35

who like called herself a Zionist, was

53:38

a liberal Zionist and was targeted by

53:40

this group. But I know this is

53:42

something that this particular organization

53:44

like I had a couple of like older

53:47

people in my life that recently found out about

53:49

them just because of some like, you know, obviously

53:51

they've been doing a lot of toxic lately. But

53:53

I remember having a conversation with my

53:56

dad actually about this and he was like

53:58

so shocked that this was happening. like

54:00

this is awful, like I can't believe that like

54:02

they're targeting students. I was like yeah no like

54:05

I have a lot of friends that were

54:07

doxed by them when we were like 19.

54:09

Like we were like we were still

54:11

teenagers like that was and like I think

54:13

like you were saying like I think you

54:16

know obviously I like

54:18

I support the protesters. I'm standing here

54:20

and I agree with the protesters. Even

54:23

if you don't you

54:25

should be supporting people's

54:28

like ability to use

54:31

college as an experience to like explore different

54:33

political ideas and realities and learn about there's

54:35

always this big you know like the right

54:37

loves to throw a fit over like oh

54:39

like these like liberal campuses are in a

54:41

in a bubble and they don't know the

54:43

real world. Like no no no actually the

54:45

point of college a lot of times is

54:47

to meet people that have different experiences than

54:49

you and to like form these different and

54:51

learn about these different ideas and form these

54:54

different ideas and like we should not

54:56

be at a place where simply

54:59

trying to learn about other issues or trying

55:01

to learn about different perspectives or whatever at

55:04

like if that's what you're doing or like advocating

55:06

for causes you care about like that should not

55:08

be reason to be

55:10

doxed like before

55:12

you could even legally drink like that is that

55:15

that's that's something that should be happening. Yes

55:18

and like I

55:20

mean like I we have a

55:22

word I'm in the works on a whole episode

55:24

about this. This might be an

55:26

unpopular opinion but it is how I feel.

55:29

Having adults who

55:32

might not even have a

55:34

real connection to university campuses

55:37

saying things like oh if

55:40

a college freshman says

55:42

xyz thing that is supportive of

55:44

Palestine we should put

55:46

their name and their information on a

55:48

truck and drive it around their community

55:50

and make sure that nobody ever hires

55:52

them for the rest of their life.

55:55

Who is that helping? Like like I think

55:57

that it's an environment that like the conversation

56:00

conversation around camp, the campus protests

56:02

that are happening right now. It's,

56:05

it's really scary to me. I guess I'll just put it

56:07

that way. It's really scary. I think none of this is

56:09

new is like a lot of what we're talking about. I

56:11

think that the advent of social media and the fact that

56:13

like, obviously,

56:16

like, as we're talking about, there are a lot of positives and

56:18

we're, you know, having this conversation to

56:20

say that to the TikTok fan is not going

56:22

to be a good solution

56:24

to all of what's happening. Like there are a lot

56:27

of positive social media, but I do think there is

56:29

also a lot of negative bias in the fact that because

56:31

it is so much more visible, the

56:33

reaction is going to be so much stronger and

56:35

there is going to be, and yeah, yeah. And

56:38

I, I, I, I 100% agree with you.

56:40

And like, like nobody, a, what

56:43

these students are advocating for is they're

56:47

advocating for peace. They're advocating for like

56:49

the bare minimum, like stop the

56:52

fucking violence. Like there's so many, so many

56:54

people who die. This is insane.

56:59

But regardless of what is happening, regardless

57:01

of what they're fucking protesting, regardless of what

57:04

is being spoken about, nobody should be, yeah,

57:06

nobody should be docs. Nobody should have their

57:08

life potentially ruined or like attempted to be

57:11

ruined because of something they said when they

57:13

were 19 or 20 or whatever. Exactly.

57:17

And folding it into the TikTok

57:19

conversation, if young people are not

57:21

able to express themselves politically on

57:23

their college campuses at college, and

57:25

then the digital spaces where they

57:28

would do that, Twitter, you can't

57:30

really do that effectively right now.

57:32

If TikTok is banned, I

57:34

just worry that we are losing

57:37

both IRL and digitally places where

57:39

people, particularly young people are able

57:41

to safely show up to express

57:43

their political beliefs, understand their political

57:45

beliefs, refine and sharpen their political

57:47

beliefs. And that's not good. I

57:50

really see these two things as related. The fact

57:52

that we have all of this

57:54

suppression and crackdown on campus protests, while also

57:56

the places and spaces where you would digitally

57:58

be able to show up. up and

58:00

do that are also being undermined. I just, it

58:02

just is, I can't help but see those two

58:05

things that's happening together. Yeah, definitely.

58:08

And I think a lot of the voices that

58:11

are talking about this moment in time, I think are

58:13

like, really

58:16

leading with a lot of anxiety and sort

58:19

of like, I don't want to say concern

58:21

trolling, but like a lot of

58:23

anxiety around youth and social media and like

58:25

youth are miserable. They're supporting Palestine because they're

58:27

on their phones, which are making them miserable.

58:29

I just, I just feel like we're not

58:31

having good substantive conversations rising to

58:33

the top about what's going on in this

58:35

very particular moment in time. Yeah, actually, off

58:38

of that point, not to sound conspiratorial or

58:40

whatever, but I think it's interesting. There were

58:42

a lot of like articles and stuff that

58:44

were coming out that I, that I do

58:46

think were very valid. I do think make a good point,

58:48

but I don't think there were doubt this fact that like, and

58:51

again, as somebody who is kind of like the, the

58:53

beginning of Gen Z, I lived through a lot of this,

58:55

but it was like all of these young people are sort

58:58

of beginning to, you know,

59:00

question whether having iPhones

59:02

all the time or having smartphones all the time is

59:05

actually good for us or like having, like growing up

59:07

with this access to the internet and social media from

59:09

such a young age was a good thing. Like maybe

59:11

it was actually sort of harmful and now we're seeing

59:13

this next generation go through it. And, you know, there

59:15

were all that there were a lot of articles that

59:17

were coming out about like, here's

59:19

this group of like 20 something's that

59:21

decided to get like Nokia

59:24

phones. I read that. Yeah, yeah,

59:26

yeah. And like all of that. And I don't like, I

59:28

think that's great. I totally agree. And I will say like,

59:30

again, as somebody who has spent a lot of time online

59:32

and a lot of time on the internet, like I definitely,

59:35

I need to detach a lot. I see a lot of the negatives

59:37

too, but at the same time it's like, I

59:39

still believe like, and I mean, I get like, this is

59:41

a lot of the philosophy of the show is like the

59:43

internet is a thing that exists. It's a thing that it

59:45

is a tool. It can be a tool

59:48

for bad, awful things. It could also

59:50

be a tool for organizing

59:52

and activism and, you know, changing

59:54

the world to be a, or

59:56

trying to make the world a better place. Like it can be. It

1:00:00

also can be a place for community. It can be like, I

1:00:02

have, I have found a lot of community

1:00:04

as online spaces. I

1:00:06

think like just,

1:00:10

just inherently demonizing the idea of

1:00:12

like the internet and social media

1:00:14

and whatever. Part of that

1:00:16

is what gets us to things like this, where then it's

1:00:18

like, but then we can't even look at the fact that

1:00:21

no, like social media in this

1:00:23

case, like again, if we're talking about

1:00:25

like the protests happening, Repel sign right

1:00:27

now, social media has been a really, really

1:00:29

important tool for organizing and for getting information

1:00:31

out there. It hasn't been the only thing

1:00:33

that has been important. There are also like a lot

1:00:35

of other, you know, actions that

1:00:37

need to be done and things that need to be done and

1:00:40

whatever, but you know, like, I'm

1:00:42

not saying that just posting a bunch

1:00:44

of graphics on your Instagram is, is

1:00:46

like, you know, peak activism or whatever, but

1:00:49

also it's like, it has been a very important tool

1:00:51

of getting information out there and getting and helping

1:00:54

to organize these protests. And I think if we,

1:00:56

if we forget that, that's

1:00:59

just going to end up hurting all of us and

1:01:01

I think that's kind of the direction we're going

1:01:03

with this legislation. That's scary. And

1:01:06

I think it, it just adds to

1:01:08

this feeling of just lots

1:01:11

of faith in democracy

1:01:14

and institutions. And I think that

1:01:16

like, particularly right now that like

1:01:20

people are feeling so checked out

1:01:22

from democracy that I

1:01:24

just don't, I don't think we

1:01:26

need, I don't think that people need any other reason

1:01:28

to be even more disengaged and checked out the

1:01:31

sphere from under the death news. So we've had

1:01:33

on the show before, you could think of the,

1:01:35

they're kind of like the Walter Cronkite of TikTok.

1:01:38

They made a really, yeah, like these everywhere. Um,

1:01:41

they made a really interesting point. They said the consequence

1:01:43

is not that TikTok gets banned.

1:01:46

It's that the American public loses faith even

1:01:48

more in the institution of government than they

1:01:51

already have. And I think that

1:01:53

really for me, it's like sums up how

1:01:55

I think a lot of folks are feeling like I've

1:01:57

seen people say things like, Oh, they'll ban TikTok before they

1:01:59

ban guns. or just like how

1:02:01

weird it is to be having these conversations

1:02:04

like I'm like Seeing conversations

1:02:06

where it's like how close to

1:02:08

death the someone who was pregnant have to be

1:02:10

before their doctor can abort their non-viable Pregnancy it

1:02:12

just feels wrong when we have all of these

1:02:14

other Really huge issues

1:02:17

happening to be like oh and then they're

1:02:19

gonna ban tic-tac Like that's what they're doing

1:02:21

like I could understand how somebody watching what

1:02:24

watching this moment in time It's just like

1:02:26

that's it. I have lost what

1:02:28

faith I had in the institution of

1:02:30

government because of this moment Like I understand

1:02:32

the way that people are responding in this

1:02:34

moment Yeah And I mean

1:02:36

like I said before I think for all

1:02:39

the hand-ringing the Biden Administration is doing right

1:02:41

now or the Democratic party is doing about

1:02:43

like oh my god like we're

1:02:45

losing young people or not having young people

1:02:47

engaging or we're losing the sort of like

1:02:51

loyalty quote-unquote of like all these marginalized

1:02:53

groups that You

1:02:55

know previously would have been a

1:02:57

big part of our Voter

1:03:00

base For all

1:03:02

the hand-ringing and for all the complaining about that They're

1:03:05

not doing anything to

1:03:08

make to motivate people to want to support

1:03:10

them And they're not doing anything to like

1:03:12

actually show that yeah like that We

1:03:15

live in a functioning democracy like this is a

1:03:18

like this is Very

1:03:21

clearly a sign that that is

1:03:23

that it's not what's happening But this is not a

1:03:25

this this is an example of democracy not

1:03:27

functioning the way that it is supposed to and I

1:03:30

I think like You can't be

1:03:32

having that sort of like moral high ground or

1:03:34

yeah Like hand-ringing about it if then you're not

1:03:36

actually going to put in the work to to

1:03:39

to make these systems work the way that They

1:03:41

say you you claim that they are supposed to

1:03:43

work Exactly and then

1:03:45

folding in Is a

1:03:48

breakdown of these tools that have been

1:03:50

used to allow people who are marginalized

1:03:52

to build platforms and express themselves and

1:03:54

build political power, you know Like

1:03:57

if there's no tik-tok and there's no real

1:04:00

Twitter and meta is de-prioritizing political

1:04:02

and social issues content on their

1:04:04

platforms. Where will we get

1:04:07

the next Black Lives Matter? Where will we

1:04:09

get the next MeToo? How will we like

1:04:11

build power and mobilize? Like I am a

1:04:13

person who believes that marginalized people will always find a

1:04:15

way, like will always make a way out of no

1:04:18

way. That is what we do. But I

1:04:20

just don't want to get into this place where we

1:04:22

have to keep rebuilding. We have to keep building new

1:04:25

platforms. One platform goes poof and so

1:04:27

the money has to spend all of this energy

1:04:29

and time. Our resources

1:04:31

that we know are not infinite,

1:04:33

they're finite, rebuilding and redooming

1:04:35

this. Like it just after a while it

1:04:37

gets really tired and like people get burned

1:04:39

out. And I just think like, yeah,

1:04:42

we're just in this very particular moment that

1:04:44

I really see a lot of

1:04:46

those chickens coming home to roost. And

1:04:48

this is why I think we need to revive Tumblr

1:04:51

and we all need to go back to Tumblr and

1:04:53

start using Tumblr again. But although

1:04:56

that's not also not a very fun tool

1:04:58

website. This is why there

1:05:00

are no girls on the internet community needs

1:05:03

to band together and

1:05:05

buy TikTok. TikTok, exactly.

1:05:07

Support our GoFundMe. I'll

1:05:11

send the link around for folks to

1:05:13

donate and we'll get a Google Doc

1:05:16

going. I'm like your organizer friend who's

1:05:18

like, as soon as the idea has

1:05:20

exploded, like I will circulate the Google

1:05:22

Doc. So we'll get our content moderation

1:05:24

policies together in that Google Doc. The

1:05:26

breakdown of these tools that have been

1:05:28

used to allow people who are marginalized

1:05:31

to build platforms and express themselves and

1:05:33

build political power. You know, like

1:05:36

if there's no TikTok and there's no real

1:05:38

Twitter and meta is deprioritizing political

1:05:40

and social issues content on their

1:05:43

platforms, where will we get the

1:05:45

next Black Lives Matter? Where will we get

1:05:47

the next MeToo? How will we like build

1:05:49

power and mobilize? Like I am a person

1:05:52

who believes that marginalized people will always find a

1:05:54

way, like will always make a way out of

1:05:56

no way. That is what we do. But I

1:05:59

just don't want to get it. into this place where

1:06:01

we have to keep rebuilding. We have to keep building

1:06:03

new platforms. One platform goes poof, and

1:06:05

so then we have to spend all of this

1:06:07

energy and time, resources

1:06:09

that we know are not infinite,

1:06:11

they're finite, rebuilding and redoing this.

1:06:14

Like it just, after a while, it gets

1:06:16

really tired and like people get burned out.

1:06:18

And I just think like, yeah,

1:06:20

we're just in this very particular moment that

1:06:22

I really see a lot of those chickens

1:06:25

coming home to roost. And this is

1:06:27

why I think we need to revive Tumblr and

1:06:29

we all need to go back to Tumblr and

1:06:31

start using Tumblr again. But

1:06:34

although that's not also not a very

1:06:36

functional website. This is why there

1:06:38

are no girls in the internet

1:06:40

community needs to band together and

1:06:42

buy TikTok. And buy TikTok, exactly.

1:06:46

Support our GoFundMe. Yes. I'll

1:06:50

send the link around for folks to donate

1:06:52

and we'll get a Google.go. And I'm

1:06:54

like your organizer friend who's like, as soon

1:06:57

as the idea's floated, I will circulate the

1:06:59

Google.go. We'll get

1:07:01

our contact moderation policies together in that

1:07:03

Google box. Joey, thank you

1:07:05

so much for being here. This was like, when

1:07:07

this news came down, I was like, I cannot wait to

1:07:09

find out what Joey thinks. You're my like TikTok

1:07:13

correspondent. TikTok correspondent, yeah. In

1:07:15

a lot of ways. Where

1:07:17

can folks keep up with you? You

1:07:19

can find me on

1:07:21

Twitter or Instagram at

1:07:23

Pat not Pratt. That's P-A-T-T-N-O-T-P-R-A-T-T. I

1:07:29

also wanna give a shout out to,

1:07:31

if you like listening to There Are No Girls In

1:07:33

The Internet or any other

1:07:35

of our iHeart media podcast

1:07:39

and you want to support the

1:07:41

fantastic producers that work super hard

1:07:43

on the shows, you should check

1:07:45

out the iHeart podcast union socials.

1:07:49

You can find us on Twitter. And

1:07:52

hopefully by the time this episode

1:07:54

drops, also on Instagram at

1:07:57

iHeart Pod Union. That's.

1:08:00

Yeah, I heart. P. O D.

1:08:03

Union. He. Hopefully

1:08:05

you could buy that. I figured out there

1:08:07

and I have figured out. Ah, I'm

1:08:10

not going to tell you that my tic toc. but if

1:08:12

you find that because I don't our a. Lot

1:08:15

of me like talking about

1:08:17

like whatever. Piece. Of

1:08:19

media I've hyper fixated on for like. A

1:08:21

couple month span so I don't know if

1:08:23

you want a. Yeah right

1:08:25

now it's that like Dc comics so if

1:08:28

anybody that are said you're welcome to try

1:08:30

to find that but I would I be

1:08:32

tell you what by my user name is

1:08:34

ah. I could see you have

1:08:36

any not as has just called like so he

1:08:38

is. Recent. Paper successor.

1:08:40

Uses a zapper that they added I. I

1:08:43

heard of. You realize that make

1:08:45

a habit. I

1:08:48

realized that the what I oh yeah that I

1:08:51

I will that that. That's kind of, but my

1:08:53

repertoire on Sept Mom never soldiers than another show that

1:08:55

I owe my case. Leon isn't usually by an hey,

1:08:57

there's this thing that I to Flick have been obsessed

1:08:59

with. way when can I can talk about. It but

1:09:01

I will be have a good episode of

1:09:04

have another coming out on Monday as or

1:09:06

as and stuff I'm never told you. Soon.

1:09:09

About ah said the Swiss

1:09:12

cheese And. Some. Of

1:09:14

the the darker side of the

1:09:16

of online band I'm so have

1:09:18

a set. Date for that but I will

1:09:20

update you guys were they do I had out

1:09:22

way. you'll be hit when that episode jobs you

1:09:24

will be on a your. Movie.

1:09:27

Discussing a viable whole like conversation

1:09:29

about this play. Yeah, we didn't

1:09:31

really go round Table Iras God.

1:09:33

I admit I like a swift,

1:09:35

the Round Table and sweaty Roundtable.

1:09:38

I know a guy like I'm not. I'm

1:09:40

not us with the I. I

1:09:42

I you know this about the icons on like.

1:09:46

Not. Loving Taylor Swift to be like I

1:09:48

say I have let I'm neutral on her

1:09:50

to now being like I don't know anything

1:09:52

about our music but like I was like

1:09:54

three of with the and it's in include

1:09:56

me in your community people I I at

1:09:58

my it doesn't Taylor. There are I

1:10:01

Loved her music agreeable singer music.

1:10:03

She has been what about hop

1:10:05

artist on spotify for like Driver?

1:10:08

Ah. The. Fandom.

1:10:11

Concerns. Me a lot. Ah,

1:10:13

but I do think it.

1:10:16

To. See herself. I

1:10:19

understand the lot of criticism and I it's

1:10:21

I support. Our I don't I I I

1:10:23

think there's a lot of of. The

1:10:26

figure is an interesting person I try to

1:10:28

keep are separate from the music, sit on

1:10:30

satellite keeping the art separate from the hardest

1:10:32

stipends. Seduced place. but

1:10:35

yeah, I.

1:10:37

Don't know if them the latest thing. As a bunch of

1:10:39

swifty, they're mad at me. Like I said that, one of

1:10:41

the lines of one of her. Most.

1:10:44

Recent thong sounded kind of dumb

1:10:46

and I apparently don't understand how

1:10:48

metaphors word meant that. Happy at

1:10:51

the consensus in the comments. Texans

1:10:53

by the yeah. Wow!

1:10:56

that's a great teaser for swifty

1:10:58

com votes to com Zoe Thank

1:11:00

you for being here. Of course

1:11:02

to think that member the. And

1:11:04

thanks for all of you for listening. I'll see

1:11:06

you on the internet. Isn't

1:11:11

looking for ways to support the so check

1:11:13

out our my store at to go to

1:11:15

that com/store. Got a

1:11:17

story about an interesting thing? Impact.