0:05

I don't know if I've ever seen you gush about

0:08

an author or a book like this. Like,

0:10

I was not expecting this < laugh > .

0:15

We're live.

0:17

Hi, I'm Hawa.

0:18

I'm Darlene.

0:19

And I'm Heather.

0:20

And this is our podcast, These Books Made

0:22

Me. Today we're going to be talking about The

0:24

Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. Friendly

0:26

warning as always, this podcast contains

0:29

spoilers. If you don't yet know who wants

0:31

to dismember a baby doll, proceed with

0:33

caution content warning, this

0:35

episode contains references to incest,

0:37

rape, and child abuse. This episode is

0:40

rated T for Teen. We have

0:42

a special guest today. Can you introduce

0:44

yourself?

0:45

Hi, I am Tiana Davis. I'm the marketing

0:47

specialist here at the Prince George's

0:50

County Memorial Library System.

0:54

All right, so I guess we'll get started on

0:57

our discussion of this book. So as

0:59

always, we start with what did this book

1:01

mean to you? And was this everyone's

1:04

first time reading? If not, how'd the reread

1:06

compare to your memories of reading

1:08

it when you were younger?

1:09

This was not my first time reading the book. Um,

1:12

I read this book, I think I was probably

1:16

14 or 15.

1:17

Oh, wow.

1:18

That's rough < laugh > .

1:19

When I read it, I

1:22

remember I read it in high school , uh, because

1:24

we actually read another book by Toni Morrison.

1:27

And then I fell in love with Toni Morrison and I was just

1:29

reading all the Toni Morrison I could find at the time.

1:32

I loved the book then. It's a really

1:34

hard book.

1:34

Mm-Hmm.

1:35

It is still a really hard book. I

1:37

think it's still a really beautiful book. So

1:40

every time I've reread it, I've, I've

1:42

found other things in the book to appreciate.

1:45

U m, this time on reread, I, I

1:47

found myself finding more

1:50

influences on Toni Morrison's writing.

1:52

Mm - Hmm.

1:53

Where I was kind of piecing together like, oh,

1:55

I bet she read this. Like I could see

1:57

little nods to other works in

2:00

her book. U m, I

2:02

love this book. I think it's so powerful.

2:05

So I really enjoyed, well, enjoyed

2:07

might be not the right word 'cause it's a really heavy

2:09

book, but I really appreciated the

2:11

chance to reread it again. Do

2:14

you feel like you responded so well to it to

2:16

begin with because you're really into poetry? Oh,

2:20

that's a really interesting question. I

2:22

don't know. I, I

2:25

think the story's incredibly powerful and

2:28

I think the writing's really lyrical and

2:31

imagery focused and beautiful and

2:35

yeah, I, I can see what you mean that it's very

2:37

poetic in points. So,

2:39

I don't know. I'm not sure why it resonated so

2:42

much specifically. I just, I

2:44

just knew that it was like a book in my

2:46

heart.

2:46

Mm-Hmm.

2:47

ever since the first time I read it.

2:49

Yeah. So this is also not my

2:51

first time reading it, but I wasn't

2:53

much younger the first time I read it. Like I probably

2:56

read it like two or three years ago. The re -how

2:59

the reread compared, I mean, honestly,

3:01

even though I had read it before, I didn't really remember

3:04

what happened. Like I remember that I enjoyed it then

3:06

I think now because we're actually having a discussion

3:08

about it that will allow it to kind of like, feel

3:10

like more ingrained in my memory. But I definitely

3:13

think that , um, there were

3:15

things that went over my head the first time that I

3:17

read it, and I'm looking forward to being able

3:19

to unpack that in this conversation.

3:22

So for me, it wasn't the

3:24

first time reading it either. The last time I read it

3:26

was maybe 10 years ago. It was definitely

3:28

during college. Um, but the reason I

3:30

was asking you about whether it was because

3:33

you liked poetry is because I was thinking

3:35

about how I would've responded if I

3:37

read this book in high school because

3:40

it is so heavy. I think it's

3:43

probably, yeah, probably one of the heavier books

3:45

I've ever read. And so I don't

3:47

know how I would've responded to it in

3:49

high school. And I think

3:52

I mentioned this when we talked

3:54

about how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents, that

3:56

before then I was not really someone that really

3:59

cared for poetry, but that I

4:01

really appreciated the like, lyricism

4:03

or poetic writing style

4:05

of Julia Alvarez. And I think that Toni Morrison

4:08

is kind of also very well known for that

4:10

kind of writing. So yeah, I guess, I

4:12

guess I just wondered how a

4:15

reading of it in high school would've gone.

4:17

But I , I think I'm glad that I wasn't

4:20

exposed to it until college. 'cause I think I needed

4:22

a bit more like understanding.

4:25

Seasoning.

4:25

Yeah. Seasoning < laugh > .

4:26

No, I think that's interesting because thinking

4:28

about it now, I'm quite

4:30

sure it wasn't so visceral for

4:33

me.

4:33

Mm-Hmm.

4:33

When I read it in high school, like

4:36

some of this stuff wasn't as real. It

4:38

was, you know, in a book and it was

4:40

beautifully written and it was powerful,

4:42

the story. But I don't

4:44

think I had as

4:46

mature of emotional touchpoints for this.

4:48

Like, reading it now as

4:51

a mom with kids

4:53

the age of Pecola and with

4:56

daughters, you know, it hits on

4:58

a different level than it did for me when

5:00

I myself was closer to her age.

5:02

Um , yeah.

5:05

It's a book that grows with

5:07

you maybe, or we grow with the book. I'm

5:09

not sure how to frame that. Tiana, how about you?

5:11

So like you Heather, I was 14.

5:14

I was in the ninth grade when I first read the book.

5:17

Um, and so I think I liked it so much then

5:19

because finishing the book was

5:21

my little act of rebellion, I

5:23

guess because my teacher actually got in trouble

5:26

for having us read it. And so we

5:28

like in the middle of the book had to stop. So I'm

5:30

one of the few who finished it in my class.

5:32

That Sure. Brings up the whole like,

5:36

banned books thing. And later, I think

5:38

we definitely should talk about like what age do

5:40

we think is the right age to give this book

5:42

to somebody. But yeah, that's a really powerful

5:45

personal story of banned books. Good for you. For finishing.

5:47

Tiana You

5:50

showed them

5:52

Rebel without a cause,

5:56

But yeah. How did it compare to your reread?

6:00

This is a reread for you. How did it compare to when you read

6:02

it when you were younger? Do you feel like you understood

6:04

more? Like

6:05

Yeah, < laugh > for sure. There was definitely

6:07

like you a lot that I missed the first time that

6:10

I read it. I think I just didn't

6:12

understand some of the things that were going

6:15

on or , um, you

6:17

know, the things that were said. And

6:19

I actually listened to it via audiobook

6:22

this time.

6:22

Mm - Hmm.

6:22

So hearing the narrator and where she put emphasis,

6:25

that also helped me see, you

6:27

know, maybe the way that I read it when I was younger wasn't

6:30

exactly what was

6:33

intended to be or what I was intended

6:35

to take from it.

6:36

Mm - Hmm.

6:36

But I also don't know if that's

6:38

just the age thing. Whereas, you know, now

6:41

I'm 30, so what I'm reading is

6:43

different than how I read it. At 14,

6:47

Toni Morrison was born Chloe Anthony Wofford

6:50

on February

6:52

18th, 1931 in Lorraine, Ohio to Ramah and George

6:54

Wofford, her mother was a homemaker

6:56

and her father worked some

6:58

odd jobs. And as a welder, despite

7:00

living in an area that was somewhat integrated,

7:03

there was the constant threat of racial discrimination.

7:06

At the age of two years old, her

7:08

family's apartment building had been burned down by

7:10

the landlord while they were inside because the

7:12

family couldn't pay the rent. The

7:14

author's nickname Toni came about because

7:17

when she was 12 years old, she became

7:19

a Catholic and took the baptismal name Anthony

7:22

as a child. Toni Morrison loved to read

7:24

and mentioned Jane Austin and Leo Tolstoy

7:26

as some of her favorite authors, quote, seeking

7:29

the company of fellow black intellectuals. And quote, she

7:34

enrolled at the historically Black university

7:36

Howard University in 1949.

7:39

Morrison graduated from Howard with her BA in

7:42

English in 1953. She

7:44

then attended Cornell University and earned

7:46

her Master of Arts degree in 1955.

7:49

Her thesis was titled The Virginia Wolf's and William

7:51

Faulkner's Treatment of the Alienated. After

7:54

graduating from Cornell, Toni Morrison taught

7:56

English for two years at Texas Southern

7:59

University and then taught English

8:01

for seven years at Howard University. During

8:04

her time at Howard University, she met

8:06

architect Harold Morrison, the two married

8:08

in 1958, had their first

8:10

son in 1961 and

8:12

got divorced in 1964. At

8:15

the time of their divorce, Toni Morrison was

8:17

pregnant with their second son. After the

8:19

divorce, Toni Morrison started working in publishing

8:22

and after two years, she became the first black

8:24

woman senior editor in the fiction department. After

8:27

transferring to Random House as

8:29

the senior editor in the fiction department, she

8:32

was instrumental in bringing a lot of Black literature

8:34

of the time into the mainstream, including

8:36

work by Muhammed Ali, Angela

8:39

Davis, Huey P. Newton, and

8:41

Toni Cade Bombara. In 1970,

8:44

at the age of 39 years old, she published

8:46

her first novel, the Bluest Eye. The

8:49

novel didn't sell well initially, but was

8:51

eventually added to the reading list of a few

8:53

colleges, which helped to boost sales. Her

8:55

second novel Sula was published in 1975

8:58

and landed her a National Book award nomination.

9:01

Her third novel Song of Solomon was

9:03

published in 1977 and was

9:05

the first novel by a Black author to be chosen

9:07

as the main selection for the Book of

9:09

the Month Club. Since Richard Wright's Native Son

9:12

in 1940, she went on

9:14

to release eight more novels, including her most

9:16

celebrated novel beloved, which won

9:18

her the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 1988.

9:20

It was eventually turned

9:22

into a film produced by Oprah Winfrey in

9:25

1998. In 1989,

9:28

she started as the Robert F. Goheen Chair

9:30

in the Humanities at Princeton University. And

9:32

she remained in that role until her retirement.

9:34

In 2006, Morrison's

9:37

younger son Slade, died of pancreatic cancer

9:39

in 2010 at the age of 45. While

9:42

she was in the middle of working on her novel home,

9:44

she had taken a break from working on the novel, but

9:46

eventually continued saying that she knew her

9:49

son wouldn't want her to not continue on

9:51

because of his passing. Toni Morrison passed

9:53

away on August 5th, 2019 in

9:56

New York City at the age of 88 years

9:58

old from complications of pneumonia. A

10:00

memorial tribute was held for her in November of

10:03

that year where she was eulogized by many literary

10:05

giants.

10:09

I'm gonna give a quick plot summary before we dive

10:11

into our discussion. Pecola

10:13

Breedlove is a young Black girl growing up

10:15

in the forties in an abusive and dysfunctional

10:18

home in Ohio. Her life is

10:20

a series of tragedies and challenges teased

10:23

mercilessly at school for her dark skin and

10:25

appearance. She thinks of herself as ugly

10:27

and unlovable. Her greatest wish

10:29

is to be beautiful and have blue eyes so that

10:32

people will see her and love her. She's

10:34

eventually sent to live with the MacTeers, a

10:36

local family with two similarly aged girls,

10:39

Claudia and Frieda, after her drunken

10:41

father, Charlie burns down the family home

10:43

and yet another episode of domestic violence.

10:45

In Claudia and Frieda Pecola

10:48

finally finds friendship and something like

10:50

Belonging. Pecola eventually

10:52

is returned to her family only to

10:54

be raped by her father and beaten when

10:56

she informs her mother. Now pregnant

10:59

Pecola is again an outcast in the community. She

11:02

seeks help from pedophile, snake oil salesman, Soaphead

11:04

Church who convinces her that if she poisons

11:07

a dog and he dies, she will then have blue

11:09

eyes. The dog dies and Pecola

11:11

descends into madness, truly believing

11:13

her eyes to be blue. Claudia

11:16

and Frieda plant seeds as a form of prayer for

11:18

the health of Pecola's baby. But the baby dies,

11:21

Pecola returns to her mother's care trapped within

11:23

her own delusions. So

11:27

I think to start off, we

11:29

should talk about Blackness in The Bluest

11:31

Eye. I think that's a

11:33

hugely powerful motivator

11:36

for Pecola in the book and it's

11:38

really a focal point for the book as a whole.

11:41

So I wanted to get everyone's take on how

11:43

that's represented in the book and how it drives

11:45

the plot forward and, and what your feelings

11:48

are on it.

11:49

So while reading this book, I'm like , um,

11:52

I'm trying to like imagine what everyone

11:54

looks like in the book, right? Like we know

11:57

most of the other people in this book are also

11:59

Black, but Cola's Blackness

12:01

is described as being the

12:03

ugliest type of Blackness. Like the

12:06

it's in hearing that

12:08

from other people around her,

12:10

like in reading it, it may sound

12:12

like it's so like unfathomable,

12:15

but it's like that's

12:18

reality. You would think like, oh, like this

12:20

hatred wouldn't be coming from your own people. But

12:23

it does. And it's really sad to

12:25

read it and like how it's coming

12:27

from all these like different like angles.

12:29

Like, oh, like every time they see her they think, oh

12:31

what an ugly little girl. It's just so

12:33

bam in your face. It, it's

12:36

like, no wonder she feels the way she

12:38

does because it's almost like she

12:40

can't go anywhere without being reminded

12:43

of her specific type

12:45

of blackness.

12:46

Even her teacher making her always sit

12:49

separately by herself in a two person desk. Desk.

12:52

Yeah.

12:53

And how old are we? Is she like,

12:55

12?

12:56

I mean, he's a preteen.

12:58

Yeah.

12:58

She's so little. I, yeah,

13:00

so little

13:02

I think I think that's, I think that also speaks to

13:04

what you were saying about liking books more than

13:06

movies. 'cause you can add in your own context. I

13:08

think similarly with like the Blackness

13:10

in The Bluest Eye,

13:13

I was thinking about how when

13:15

I read how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents

13:17

in high school, I knew

13:20

what the difference was between different immigrant

13:22

groups within the Latino community. And

13:24

so for me it was easier

13:27

to access that like as

13:29

she was speaking about certain things.

13:31

And so I think

13:34

a lot about kind of whatever,

13:36

like what I know about what

13:39

those experiences are like in the Black community.

13:42

And because I'm not Black, I

13:44

wouldn't know how to like access

13:46

that information, but I feel like exposing

13:50

yourself to like more people in your life and kind of

13:52

seeing what they've gone through, I feel like

13:54

you get more at that and you can

13:56

see just how much more devastating

13:58

it is. Because I don't know that I would've

14:00

gotten that before. Like,

14:03

she, I think she does a really good job at trying

14:05

to explain it to you, but it's one of those

14:07

things like Heather was saying, that you

14:09

don't know how devastating it is back

14:11

then because you don't know how to access

14:13

those emotions or that understanding. But

14:16

yeah, I mean the more that you kind of like live

14:18

life and like see it for

14:20

yourself, even if it is from like an outsider's

14:23

perspective, it, it gives that

14:25

book that much more context and you realize

14:28

like why it was so important for her to

14:31

show all those levels of Blackness

14:33

within one narrative.

14:36

I wanted to ask if you all thought

14:39

that this

14:41

was something that struck me on this read that I don't think had

14:43

jumped out to me before. That

14:45

Toni Morrison is

14:49

in some ways almost making the reader complicit

14:52

in the colorism Mm - Hmm. She

14:55

describes every character using color, like

14:57

throughout.

14:58

Yeah.

14:58

You'll hear somebody described as high yellow or, um

15:00

Mm-Hmm.

15:00

or milky brown, right?

15:02

Mm-Hmm.. So you have this constant

15:05

sort of like systemic colorism

15:08

that runs through the book. So all

15:10

of our views of these characters are now shaped

15:12

and our mental images are also

15:15

colored by the

15:17

color language that she picks to use

15:19

for every character. And like,

15:22

I think we are supposed to obviously hurt

15:25

for Pecola, but I

15:27

think much like with Claudia being sort

15:29

of the proxy for us, we are complicit

15:31

in it as well. Right? Yeah. Because we're also

15:34

feeding into this. Oh, that's

15:36

how I'm seeing the people too. Yeah. Like, oh, the

15:39

little girl that's new in town, Maureen like bright,

15:41

she's beautiful, bright.

15:41

and shiny

15:42

she's light, she's, you know, so pretty. And

15:44

you understand why everybody's like wanting to be

15:46

her friend and why she's popular. U

15:49

m, and the sort of unrelentingness

15:52

of how Pecola is described as ugly

15:54

and her description of herself, you know,

15:56

like, um,

15:57

Of her family.

15:57

exactly Like her mother and like the, the low

16:00

foreheads and the hairlines and the, it's,

16:03

it's unrelenting. And so you start to

16:05

internalize that as a reader too. And so

16:07

my image of Pecola was like a really unattractive

16:10

little girl. And so that was part of like, well,

16:13

I feel for her, but like I'm playing into

16:15

the exact same thing that it's trying to point

16:18

out. If that makes sense.

16:19

Yeah. And then it almost like feels like, like

16:22

I'm, I'm looking at the certain part of the page where it's

16:24

just almost like, it's like the

16:26

excuse for every, not excuse, but it's almost

16:29

like their ugliness and their Blackness is

16:31

the reason for why things are not going

16:33

good in their life.

16:34

Mm - Hmm.

16:34

Right. So like it says , um,

16:37

the Breedloves did not live in a

16:39

storefront because they were having temporary difficulty

16:42

adjusting to the cutbacks of the plant. They lived there because

16:44

they were poor and Black and they stayed

16:46

there because they believed they were ugly. And

16:49

then it goes on to describe what their

16:51

ugliness is. And it really

16:54

just talks about like, like the, the things

16:56

that they talk about are like just

16:58

maybe features that you think about when

17:01

you think about like darker skinned people and it's just like,

17:03

yeah,

17:03

They just seem normal.

17:04

Yeah. Honestly, like, I'm like,

17:05

But you do start to internalize the like,

17:07

oh, I guess they're just, you

17:09

know, really unattractive and they, you

17:12

know, look a certain way and that you start to

17:14

accept that as truth because they've accepted

17:16

it as truth as well.

17:17

Yeah.

17:17

Like, 'cause that's all they're hearing from

17:19

people and Oh gosh. Yeah.

17:23

I wonder too if some

17:25

of what's described adds onto the ugliness

17:27

for the reader. So, you know, the

17:29

mom is disabled. Mm - Hmm. , she has like

17:32

the shriveled foot. Um, and

17:34

then the father is an alcoholic. So,

17:36

you know, he's probably sort of, I

17:39

think

17:39

She describes him as like disheveled and like kind of bloated

17:41

almost at one point.

17:42

Mm - Hmm. .

17:43

Yeah. He was probably like a little sweaty. Like,

17:46

you know, so I wonder if all of that adds to

17:48

it. Like, you know, it's ugly

17:51

to look at sort of a family and,

17:53

you know, I assume Pecola is maybe

17:56

malnourished because they don't have a lot of

17:58

money so her clothes don't

18:00

fit well, what few clothes she has.

18:03

Yeah. And I think also

18:06

on that same topic , um, even

18:09

though color is such a

18:12

focus, we also have this concept of

18:14

invisibility. Nicole is trying

18:16

to not be seen or she

18:19

sometimes feels unseen and then

18:21

that becomes almost like a comfortable spot

18:23

for her sometimes when things are going poorly. But

18:26

then other times she wants to be

18:28

seen. And this time that I read it,

18:30

you know, that had such echoes of Ellison's

18:32

Invisible Man for me.

18:33

Mm-Hmm.

18:33

So like this equating of Blackness

18:36

with invisibility and um,

18:39

that kind of runs as a through line in

18:41

the book as well. So thoughts

18:43

on that?

18:44

No, That makes sense. Almost as to like, not

18:46

wanna bring attention to

18:49

yourself so that people don't have a

18:51

reason to like, make fun of you. I can totally

18:53

relate to that, especially growing up like yeah.

18:56

<laugh>

18:57

And it, it's interesting when

18:59

characters do notice her

19:02

and then it just, it ends up worse

19:04

for her. Like it's , uh, what's that

19:06

kid's name that asks her to come back

19:08

to his house?

19:09

Junior

19:10

Louis Junior. Yeah.

19:11

Yeah.

19:11

With

19:12

The cat. Yeah. With the cat. And it's like,

19:14

I hate that kid.

19:15

Yeah. Had he...

19:16

And his mom? Oh,

19:16

They're awful.

19:17

Oh yeah.

19:17

They're so awful.

19:19

Like, she literally, I

19:21

don't even, I'm not even gonna repeat the words that she, like if you read the book, you know

19:23

what she said, the mom said to her like, oh, I was so pissed.

19:27

But yeah, I mean, had he just like let

19:29

her go on through, she

19:31

wouldn't have had to endure that. I

19:33

mean, it was just like, it, it

19:36

was just like a really devastating part

19:38

'cause right. Like there's the

19:41

abuse that he's doing in that moment, but

19:43

then also like blaming

19:45

her for the cat's death and then subjecting

19:48

her to like the mom's verbal abuse. And

19:50

it was just like, you could've just let her go

19:52

through the playground and just, she wouldn't

19:54

have had to endure something like that.

19:56

Yeah, no. He saw her, he

19:58

saw her in her Blackness and was like,

20:01

I'm, I can do whatever I want.

20:02

Right.

20:03

Because if nobody's

20:05

gonna come checking to see what happens, like

20:08

nobody's gonna care.

20:08

No one's can believe her

20:09

Like no one's gonna believe her, no one's

20:11

gonna care. And the mom's just gonna be like, okay,

20:13

get, get out of here. Like, the mom didn't

20:15

give a care or like, and they said this

20:17

cat scratched up her face. Like you would've thought, oh, the mom

20:19

would've been concerned, but she was like, no,

20:22

That was just evidence of her having hurt

20:24

the cat.

20:25

You heard you my cat Yeah, exactly. Like, mind you, it's

20:27

not like, it's not like Junior

20:30

didn't have a pattern of like, harming the

20:33

cat. So you would've thought, like, as the adult in

20:35

this situation, right. The smart thing to do would've been

20:37

like, you know, to genuinely

20:39

wonder what happened. She just

20:41

took his word for it. Like, you know, he hates that cat,

20:44

but you took his word for it. Like, how'd

20:46

the girl get in here to begin with?

20:48

Well, and that was real, like generational trauma

20:50

repeating itself. Right. Because , uh,

20:53

Pecola's mother Pauline

20:56

or, or Polly as she gets referred

20:58

to sometimes, you

21:00

know, her life really kind of goes off the

21:02

rails when she starts

21:05

to feel less than

21:07

the types of women like Louis Junior's

21:10

mom.

21:10

Mm - Hmm.

21:10

,you know, the lighter skin, very proper,

21:13

churchy , um, you know, always

21:16

just starched

21:18

and buttoned up and everything done right. And

21:21

she can't ever fit in with them and she feels

21:23

marginalized and so then she kind of

21:25

Stops trying.

21:26

Yeah. And, and tries to be

21:28

like that because she leans real hard into

21:30

the like God-fearing woman thing, but

21:33

she never quite can be with

21:36

the nice house and the nice things. So she just

21:38

accepts this abuse from her husband as

21:40

part of like, well I'm just too

21:42

Black to be like her, so

21:45

I'm, I'm going to do what I can of that

21:48

kind of, I don't know, way of

21:50

living. Um

21:52

And you know, it was in reading her, her her

21:54

little, the little tidbit section about her

21:56

and, and how she used

21:59

to be before what is, what made me realize

22:01

like, these are not like people that

22:03

are like, like ugly.

22:06

They're just Black. 'cause she

22:08

talks or she kind of like, you kind of read

22:10

into about like how she's like, you

22:12

know, I used to try and I used

22:15

to do this and I used to like really like kind of like kind

22:17

of try and enjoy even though I wasn't great at it. And

22:19

they would laugh at me, but then I just stopped altogether and

22:21

just leaned almost like she leaned into the

22:24

ugliness that was expected of her. .

22:26

Yeah. I , um, also

22:30

along those lines with Claudia

22:35

and Frieda, other

22:37

than the incident with Maureen where

22:39

they like, they turn on her, which, you

22:41

know.

22:42

Yeah.

22:42

Feels warranted.

22:44

<laugh> .

22:44

Yeah.

22:45

Um , and but other

22:47

than that, you know, they're able to

22:51

navigate sort of society a little bit better

22:53

because they are I

22:55

think like not viewed as ugly and they're,

22:58

Yeah. Their parents are probably slightly better off.

22:59

Their home is a little bit nicer and,

23:02

and their parents are more respected

23:04

and , um, seemed to have like a

23:06

firmer place in the

23:08

community. The contrast

23:11

between like Claudia and Frieda and

23:13

Pecola, how much

23:15

are we supposed to make of those two

23:17

little girls being really the only ones to like accept

23:20

her? And

23:23

I don't know, what are we supposed to

23:25

feel about that?

23:27

Throughout the book? Claudia and Frieda

23:29

seem very naive and

23:32

that sort of pushed a lot. So, you

23:34

know, they're friends with her because they

23:37

don't really understand why they wouldn't be friends with her in, in

23:39

my view, you know, at the beginning

23:42

they talk about how they still

23:43

love Mr. Henry despite what

23:46

happened later. You know, they were praying for

23:48

the baby to survive because they didn't really

23:50

see why maybe the baby

23:52

not surviving would

23:55

be the best outcome for Pecola.

23:57

Yeah. They don't really think out. I

23:59

mean, that is a very like, naive 'cause what

24:01

would happen to that baby?

24:03

Yeah.

24:03

You know, what possibly would that

24:06

baby's life look like? It wouldn't be

24:08

good. But they don't think it out

24:10

that far. They're just like, oh,

24:12

finally something sweet

24:15

for Pecola. Like a baby is beautiful.

24:17

So that's finally something good for her. And

24:19

it's like, no, that's not good for her. Um,

24:22

yeah.

24:24

And I think also part of it, I like that you mentioned that

24:26

they were like, they didn't really see it. Like, why

24:28

wouldn't we be friends with her? Because I feel

24:30

like children are

24:32

like so much more. They have, they

24:34

can have so much more of an innocence I say can

24:36

have, because you also see like there are children

24:39

who are already at the point where they're like bullying her

24:41

and stuff like that. But I feel like a lot of like the dislike

24:43

or the hate that children have or things

24:46

they pick up on from like their

24:48

parents or things that they hear their parents say. So

24:50

either like with some situations, they either

24:52

repeat those things or feel that same way or

24:54

they hear it and they're just like, mm, yeah,

24:57

I really don't like that, so I'm not gonna

24:59

be that person. I don't know if like, I

25:01

mean, the worst thing they heard the mom say about

25:04

Pecola, like from what we could see is about

25:06

like, she was mad that she drank up all the milk pretty

25:08

much. Like, but then there are other things that their, their

25:11

parents say like their, their mom has said

25:13

that they repeat like about the, what's

25:16

her name? Her, her name is Miss Marie,

25:18

but they called her, what'd they call her

25:20

The Marginot Line.

25:21

Mango line or something.

25:21

What does That even mean? < laugh > ?

25:23

I don't know. I did not look that up.

25:25

I think it's like a, a train

25:27

< laugh > . That's

25:29

what I, how I always out .

25:33

< laugh > .

25:36

Let's see if we can

25:37

It says Maginot Line.

25:38

Maginot Line

25:40

named after the...what?

25:42

why on Earth?

25:43

a massive system of defenses that became famous

25:45

for failing to stop a German invasion. It

25:49

was built between 1930 and 1940.

25:52

I, I got no clue on that one.

25:53

I got no clue on that one. But that's

25:55

why when Pecola was like, what Miss Marie

25:57

and, but yeah, no, so

25:59

like you see how like, you

26:02

know, sometimes they're, they how, how they can

26:04

be influenced by the adults around them, but

26:06

that didn't necessarily stop them from wanting to

26:08

be friends with Pecola.

26:11

So was Toni Morrison do we think

26:13

making sort of a, well

26:15

a religious imagery there

26:18

that Pecola finds her place with the

26:20

prostitutes, you know , um, and

26:23

you have obviously that imagery in the Bible as well

26:25

that, you know, Mary Magdalene's

26:27

the one that tends to Jesus.

26:29

Mm - Hmm.

26:29

when things happen and he's like, y'all need to back

26:31

off because she's the only one that cares. Like what I'm

26:34

going through right now. She's the only one that thought to take care

26:36

of me. Just like the prostitutes are the only

26:38

ones that really, of the adults.

26:40

Yeah .

26:40

That think to take care of Pecola. U

26:42

m, is that a Pecola

26:45

as Jesus reference?

26:49

Hmm .

26:49

Or is it just that <laugh>,

26:51

I mean there's a lot of religious imagery in

26:53

the book.

26:54

No, no, no. There is, but I was gonna say,

26:56

like, when I was reading it, I think I just,

26:58

I think I just understood it as like a

27:00

prostitute would know, like the,

27:03

like being at the bottom of society

27:05

and like not really having a

27:08

chance. And so they might be able

27:10

to access that a bit more in

27:12

terms like, in terms of understanding

27:14

what Pecola goes through. And

27:16

so they, I feel like because of that you

27:19

can have that sort of empathy and

27:21

like compassion for this child. And that's

27:24

why maybe they, they were like, they extended

27:26

that empathy to her. At least

27:28

that's how I took it. But yeah,

27:30

now I have to sit on < laugh > , the idea

27:32

that of the religious elements to it.

27:34

There's an article that I found that we should probably

27:37

look at and see if we can find it. It's on

27:39

Jstor, but it's called the Fourth Face, the Image of God

27:41

in Toni Morrison's the Bluest Eye.

27:44

Mm - Hmm.

27:44

So that might be interesting to, to look at or Yeah.

27:47

Yeah. I mean I just, I think that

27:49

there's, there's something there

27:53

that she was doing intentionally because

27:55

there religion does

27:57

weave its way through the book a lot. And I think that

27:59

there is sort of, you

28:03

know, with the struggles of Pecola and at the

28:05

end, the destruction of Pecola for

28:08

our sins.

28:08

Yeah.

28:09

Like,

28:10

And you know, when she leaves the, was it when she

28:12

leaves the Junior's house? Like, and

28:14

there's like the image of Jesus kinda like looking down at her

28:16

as she's leaving.

28:17

Yeah.

28:19

Interesting. That's why

28:21

I like talking about books with people. 'cause I never would've came

28:23

up with that <laugh> <laugh> .

28:27

So with , um, with

28:30

Pecola having

28:33

her mental health crisis, who

28:36

are we supposed to blame for this, do

28:38

you think? Yeah,

28:40

Everybody failed that little girl with maybe

28:43

with like the exception of like the prostitutes

28:45

that lived above her. But like, even then it's

28:48

like,

28:50

Yeah, I mean it's, societal all around

28:51

It was nothing they could do

28:53

Yeah.

28:55

Yeah. Poor thing. She just doesn't get a

28:57

moment of kindness really from anybody.

28:59

Right.

29:00

Because the few people that were kind to her, right, like

29:02

say like, you know, the kids and stuff like that. Like what can

29:04

a kid do in a situation like that? Literally

29:06

nothing. Like, they don't even have a full understanding

29:09

of like why this is happening to her. Like

29:12

what can they do?

29:13

Well and even the adults, it's a really odd

29:16

dynamic. The, the

29:18

women, so Claudia and Frieda's

29:21

mom talking with, with the other townswomen,

29:24

the proper townswomen, I think like , um,

29:27

that happens a few times in the book. And

29:30

there's, you know, initially they're sort of talking

29:32

about like, ugh, the Breedloves what

29:34

a mess. And like he's no good

29:36

and she puts up with it and there's

29:38

all of this bad stuff and Pecola's

29:41

like, just kind of erased. Like there's

29:43

very little sympathy for her given

29:47

how indicting they are of the family. And

29:50

then that happens again after the rape. Like,

29:52

they're all very quick to be,

29:54

you know, oh, it's wrong.

29:56

That's bad. Charlie's no good. Like

29:59

he's nasty. Why will they do

30:01

that? But it's like Pecola doesn't even

30:03

exist in that. No. Yeah, you're

30:06

absolutely right. Like, 'cause even, I guess the one person does

30:08

like insinuate that maybe she

30:11

Did something.

30:11

Did something.

30:12

Yeah. Which,

30:14

But, which which is gross. But that's

30:16

how people are. But generally speaking,

30:19

you know, it's like they, they understand

30:21

that that situation is horrible,

30:26

but it's, they don't see her, you know?

30:28

Yeah.

30:28

I mean, she's right to feel invisible because

30:31

there's no, hey, someone should help

30:33

her. Or oh, someone should take care

30:35

of that little girl. It's like, no, that

30:37

family's just no good and now

30:39

she doesn't exist to them.

30:41

Yeah. And even like Claudia and Frieda, they're

30:43

just like, they're listening. They were listening

30:45

out to see if anybody would say poor little girl

30:47

or poor baby, but there

30:49

was only head wagging where those words

30:52

should have been. And it's just like, it's

30:54

interesting because we talk about like how naïve they are in a sense,

30:56

but it's also like, were they the only ones to think like,

31:00

dang, that's sad.

31:03

It's sad. This is a sad one.

31:05

Yeah. And I mean, it, it does, I

31:08

guess there is that sort of connection to what

31:10

happens to, it

31:13

was, was it Claudia or was it , um,

31:16

Frieda.

31:17

Frieda.

31:17

with, with the lodger Mr . Henry or Mr. Henry.

31:19

Yeah.

31:19

That was his name, right?

31:20

Yeah.

31:20

Yeah. And then, you know, the way that the parents

31:22

responded, right? Like that's

31:25

the kind of like.

31:26

Right.

31:26

Anger and like

31:28

He molests her and they

31:30

try to kill him.

31:32

Yeah. They threw like a tricycle at him or

31:34

something.

31:34

And then the neighbors come and help, right.

31:35

They come and loan him a gun, I think. Right.

31:38

Yeah. So do they like

31:39

Go get 'em?

31:39

Yeah. So like, i t, it's interesting how they

31:41

have that energy for like, of course they'll

31:43

have that energy for their child, but like the neighbors come

31:45

in.

31:46

for the good family,

31:47

for the good family, the nicer,

31:49

the cute girl

31:49

the cute girls. But then for the ugly girl

31:52

who maybe, yeah, this situation that

31:54

took place, you know, I mean it was her

31:56

father, but like, that doesn't make it like, that doesn't

31:58

mean that it's her fault. And they're, of course they're

32:01

maybe not sure how to, like, there's

32:04

no like interference they think that they can possibly

32:06

do. But the way they talk about it,

32:08

I think also contributes to like

32:11

the whole like society. Like they're

32:13

talking about it as if like, it's just like the latest

32:15

gossip, right?

32:16

Mm-Hmm.

32:16

Like, it not like, oh, we should come together

32:19

and do something. Not that they would,

32:21

but still like, nobody's

32:23

like, oh, that's sad. They're just like, well

32:26

that happened.

32:27

Yeah. And I think that that really comments

32:29

on the fakeness of community.

32:31

Yeah.

32:31

Which I think it, it was, I think I read that

32:34

she did kind of write this in response to

32:36

like all the like positive things that

32:38

people were trying to bring forth about like, like just

32:41

Blackness in America and like acceptance and

32:43

like being more positive about things. And

32:46

I think this book is a

32:48

really good, like it shows how

32:52

there is a fakeness in that, right? Like

32:53

that you're willing to do it for some people,

32:56

but you wouldn't do it for everyone. And

32:58

so then are you really, is

33:00

there like a communal,

33:02

like Black community?

33:04

Right? The idea that like if there's

33:06

a community, someone's always in it

33:08

and that means someone necessarily is out

33:11

of it.

33:11

Mm.

33:11

Right.

33:12

Yeah.

33:13

Oof.

33:14

Um, I wrote

33:16

something down when I was going through the book about

33:19

how, you know, Pecola

33:22

when she descends into her madness,

33:25

she talks about how even Mrs.

33:28

Breedlove, her mom , um, sort of

33:30

turns her eyes down. And so I'm

33:32

wondering if maybe it's not that people don't

33:35

see or they're just refusing to acknowledge this horrible

33:37

thing that's happened.

33:38

Mm - Hmm.

33:39

Whether it's because of shame or

33:41

humiliation, you know

33:43

But her existence is an indictment of

33:45

them.

33:46

Yeah. Like what does say about themselves

33:49

They failed to help. They failed to act. So they're just

33:51

going to pretend she's not there anymore. Also,

33:54

Also, why does she call her mama Mrs. Breedlove? Like why do, why - do

33:57

we have any insight on like why that

33:59

is? But like the little, the

34:01

little white girl called her Polly?

34:03

Well, I mean, I think that was supposed to

34:06

contrast how she felt about her kids. You

34:08

know, like for her, the

34:10

most that Sammy and Pecola were gonna be was

34:14

part of this. I

34:17

keep a clean house, I have respectful

34:19

children. Like they didn't exist as humans

34:22

to her. They were just part of this thing.

34:23

Whereas she sees the humanity

34:26

in the little white girl and she's, you

34:29

know, sad for her tears. Yeah. And she

34:31

has much more maternal affection for

34:35

that little girl than she does for her

34:37

own kin. But

34:40

it's because that family, like, that's

34:42

the aspirational thing for her. That's

34:44

her safe place, I guess in

34:47

some way. Like when she's with them, she

34:50

has more respect than she

34:52

has from her husband at home.

34:54

Mm - Hmm.

34:54

And she's able to keep order to things and

34:56

no one messes it up. And she, these

34:58

things that were like natural tendencies for

35:00

her and the things that she aspired to when

35:04

she was a child and that were comfortable

35:07

for her, she seeks them out

35:09

in this home with the white family.

35:11

So she's this model servant, but

35:15

it's like a different identity for her.

35:17

I was just about to say that. It's like she's living two lives.

35:19

It's Polly versus Mrs. Breedlove. So

35:22

it's these two different communities that

35:24

she has a completely different place

35:27

in, it seems like.

35:29

Mm. That makes sense.

35:32

I was struck when I was reading again, I think I've

35:34

always in my head thought of Claudia as like

35:36

the closest thing to a narrator that we

35:38

get in the book. 'cause we do get things from her

35:40

point of view. And of course we have chapters that, that are

35:42

not from her point of view. But often when

35:44

we have a narrator that's like supposed to be the proxy

35:46

or the stand-in for the reader, like we,

35:50

their mind's eye is now our mind's

35:52

eye. I

35:55

don't know if I still think that anymore. I'm

35:58

not sure that Claudia is supposed to be

36:00

the stand-in for us. I think we are the

36:02

community and Claudia's supposed

36:04

to be an indictment of us. Like

36:07

what she's seeing in the book, she's

36:10

seeing us, right?

36:12

Mm-Hmm.

36:12

like, that's how I felt reading it this time because

36:15

I do really feel like Toni Morrison is trying to make

36:17

us complicit in that community. Yeah.

36:19

Like, we're not doing anything either. We're

36:21

reading these descriptions and we're internalizing

36:23

these like adjectives about everybody and

36:26

their places and how everyone stacks up

36:28

in it.

36:28

Right. And just how we're like imagining them

36:30

based off of the words that she writes. Yeah. Like what

36:33

does that say about us?

36:34

I don't know. Am I misinterpreting?

36:37

No, I, I think it's interesting.

36:38

I think I had that read before, but then this

36:40

time I was like, Claudia's really not

36:42

quite the narrator in

36:45

that way. Not in the way of a traditional narrator.

36:47

Anyways.

36:48

I mean, if she falls into having some

36:51

of that same perspective that the

36:53

community has though, how

36:55

much of an indictment is it?

36:58

Does she though?

37:00

I think she understands certain

37:02

aspects of it. Right? Like it's Claudia and

37:04

why do I keep forgetting her sister's name? Fri-Frieda.

37:07

Frieda. Thank you. It's Claudia and Frieda

37:09

that have the doll, right? Like

37:12

the.

37:12

Yeah.

37:13

The blonde , blue-eyed doll and

37:15

it's Oh, but Claudia's the one that hates

37:17

the doll.

37:18

Yes. I think Claudia is the standin

37:20

for the author. Like the

37:22

whole section on her desire

37:25

to dismember the white doll

37:27

And didn't want to be a mother. And they looked at her like,

37:29

girl, what < laugh > we never, we didn't have this growing up.

37:31

You should. Yeah.

37:32

Yeah. And she's, she's

37:35

much quicker. Well, and Frieda is very

37:37

quick to like be like, oh no, you

37:39

don't. To people, you know, those little

37:41

girls are spunky. I really like them.

37:43

< laugh > .

37:43

Um , but like even her

37:47

sort of interpretation of the

37:51

rape and pregnancy and what

37:53

she wants for Pecola, I

37:57

don't know. I I think that she's, I

38:01

don't think she's us. I

38:03

think she's Toni. I

38:06

don't know if that makes sense.

38:08

No, it makes sense. It's just it is, it is something

38:11

I gotta sit and think with, you know? Yeah.

38:12

Because I'm trying to think back on like every

38:14

sort of like opinion or thought she's presented

38:17

about any of the characters and trying to, because you

38:20

know, like , um, I know

38:22

that she's not, she doesn't really care for

38:24

Marie. And um, I

38:27

think when Frieda, what happens with

38:30

Frieda and what is it , um, is

38:32

it Henry Mr.

38:33

Mm-Hmm. Yeah. The lodger.

38:35

What happened with them? I think she was also

38:37

like, well what are you doing? Or like, just asking

38:39

her, I mean she just wanted to know and as

38:42

a child, like it makes sense. She's just curious

38:44

about like how things happened and

38:46

, um, yeah. Sorry, I'm like trying

38:48

to think through that and trying to figure out like where

38:51

did she stand on everything in

38:54

the book. But I do agree that

38:56

in general, like she was not, she

38:59

didn't have quite the

39:02

like, as negative thoughts as

39:04

the community had .

39:05

Yeah. She hasn't like, internalized that

39:07

stuff in the same way I think. Um,

39:10

Which is nice. But I mean, it's also 'cause she is

39:12

had the support from her parents

39:15

and the community. So maybe she can,

39:18

She has,

39:19

She can have that amount of privilege

39:21

To be able to do that. That Pecola never Right

39:23

.

39:23

Has I came across this and

39:26

it sounds interesting, so I'm gonna read it to y

39:28

all if that's okay. Okay . Please do. This is all sparknotes, so

39:30

I'm not taking credit for this by the way. <laugh> , um,

39:33

such sources , uh, Claudia is a valuable

39:35

guide to the event that unfolds in Lorraine

39:37

because her life is stable enough to permit

39:39

her to see clearly her vision is

39:41

not blurred by the pain that eventually drives

39:44

cola into madness. Her presence in the

39:46

novel reminds us that most black families

39:48

are not like Colas . Most black families

39:51

pull together in the face of hardship instead of fall apart.

39:53

Claudia's perspective is also valuable

39:56

because it melds the child's and

39:58

adult's points of view. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , her childish viewpoint

40:01

makes her uniquely qualified to register

40:03

what cola experiences, but

40:05

her adult point of view can correct the childish

40:07

one when it is incomplete. She's a messenger of

40:10

suffering, but also of hope. And

40:12

I think that the word,

40:14

I mean, I don't know if I completely agree with everything in

40:16

there, but I think that I

40:18

like that it discusses how the childish viewpoint

40:21

and up against the adult viewpoint because

40:23

I think it explains why like in some

40:25

instances, like, you know, like they come across as

40:27

like being a bit naive, but also like being like,

40:31

you know, having more of like the, you

40:33

know, insight . I guess looking back,

40:36

Should we talk feminism in the Bluest Eye? I

40:39

mean, I think, I think start

40:41

this from a place of saying

40:44

that I believe Toni Morrison felt herself

40:46

to be a feminist. And I think that, that

40:50

this book is a really frequently

40:53

looked at piece of literature from a feminist

40:55

lens. How do we feel about

40:57

it?

40:58

I have two sort of thoughts on it. The

41:01

first one is that I sort

41:03

of love that men or males

41:05

in general, like men and boys are

41:08

only mentioned when there's

41:11

violence and then once the violence is done,

41:13

they're sort of not mentioned again until

41:15

the next act of violence. The other thing

41:18

was that I feel like there were some,

41:20

there were a lot of instances of internalized

41:23

feminism, which doesn't necessarily mean

41:25

that the book isn't feminist or that , um,

41:28

Toni Morrison herself isn't Femini , uh Yeah.

41:31

Isn't feminist. But I don't know , it was

41:33

just interesting to me.

41:35

Yeah. I think there's definitely

41:37

something to be said for how, I

41:40

mean, we do get the one chapter that's from Charlie's

41:42

point of view, I guess. Mm-Hmm . So we get

41:44

a little context to his

41:47

actions, but we

41:49

also, I think in that chapter, things

41:52

fall apart for him when he

41:54

loses the strong woman on

41:56

Jimmy. Mm-Hmm . i n his life. Like

41:58

that's when things go off the rail. M

42:01

m-Hmm. before that he is

42:03

loved, he is c ared for and seems

42:05

like quite a functional person

42:07

until he then has this act

42:09

of violence perpetrated on him by the white community

42:11

with the, I'm not even sure what to

42:14

call that. It's a horrible scene. Um

42:16

, b ut basically he's having his first sexual

42:18

experience and some white men

42:20

come upon him and make a show

42:22

out of it and are, it's

42:25

awful. It's really, really awful. And

42:28

that seems to be a real inflection point

42:30

for his life moving forward because his response

42:33

to that is not to hate the white me n, it's

42:35

to hate the girl that he was with. Ri ght. Which

42:38

I think, I thought that was an incredibly

42:41

powerful bit of

42:43

feminist thought in

42:45

that lens to be able to pinpoint

42:48

so clearly that a

42:50

man would sooner turn on women

42:53

than turn on other men. Ye ah. In

42:56

a situation where the girl

42:58

in that had nothing to do with anything.

43:00

She was a victim as well. She

43:02

Was there with you going through it

43:03

And his hate all got directed onto her.

43:06

Yes.

43:06

And it was interesting how they, I think, I

43:09

think, I don't know if I read it in the book or read it somewhere, that

43:11

they were like, you know, he, he literally

43:14

turned against the

43:16

black woman that he was with as opposed to

43:18

these white men who put both

43:20

of them in that situation to begin with.

43:22

Like

43:24

Yeah. And the way she writes and frames that is

43:26

really interesting too because it, it

43:28

kind of guides the reader to it, right?

43:31

Like in case you weren't there

43:33

with her already, she was just kind of

43:35

guiding you into it . Like, and you

43:37

know, naturally you would think that his anger

43:39

would be on the white men , but you know, it wasn't,

43:41

he, you know, put his anger onto the

43:44

black woman in that scene. But yeah,

43:47

so I agree that I think that she, she

43:50

does let her perspective kind of

43:52

like bleed into that book. And that's why I do

43:54

think that there is a lot of it that kind of has

43:56

that feminist lens.

43:59

Yeah. And I do think that other than

44:01

that, you know, the

44:04

men are pretty inconsequential

44:07

in this book other than inflict

44:10

of violence or kind of non-res

44:14

earners, you know, the

44:16

community is the women. Yeah

44:18

. And we see several examples of

44:20

community with the women. The prostitutes

44:22

have their own community and they're the only community

44:25

that cares for cola at all. You know, they

44:27

are the, in a weird

44:29

way, they're kind of the model of a good

44:31

community. They accept each other, they

44:34

accept her. They've found a way to

44:36

survive,

44:37

Which I think shows range in itself because

44:39

it's just like, you know, I feel

44:41

like the , and and I think in a text that

44:43

maybe is not feminist or not as feminist,

44:46

those women would've been viewed as like the

44:49

bad as most of the community kind of sees

44:51

them. But you get that range, you know,

44:55

Are the three prostitutes, the archangels,

44:58

<laugh>. I

45:00

keep going back to the religious thing because

45:02

I think there's actually a whole lot going

45:04

on there. Possibly. I

45:07

mean, I, and then you

45:09

have the like, marginalized girl giving

45:11

birth to and horrible circumstances.

45:14

But the baby itself is the product of

45:17

hope for Claudia and

45:19

Frieda and then the baby

45:21

dies for the sins of everybody. Like I, there's

45:24

something there, and I don't know if I'm sophisticated

45:26

enough to put it together, but I think

45:29

she's doing something really intentional

45:32

and extremely complicated

45:34

in the writing there too.

45:36

Sounds like there needs to be a part two <laugh>

45:41

With a professor <laugh> somebody

45:45

better . Yeah.

45:50

I don't know. Feminism is, it's complicated

45:52

because again, I think it kind of goes back to how much

45:54

you read the book is an indictment of

45:58

various people because it is definitely, I

46:00

think an indictment of some of those communities, like

46:02

you're saying. But I don't think that's because they're women. Right.

46:05

Whereas I think that when we're, when

46:07

we're seeing strength in the book, like

46:10

we are supposed to believe it's because they're

46:13

women. Mm-Hmm . You know , like even with Claudia and Frieda,

46:15

they're really strong little girls man.

46:18

Like, they have all

46:20

manner of courage and pluck

46:22

and we don't get

46:25

any sense of any male characters

46:27

like that. Even the other children, the

46:29

other boys are like very quick to succumb

46:32

to peer pressure and be absolutely terrible

46:34

to everybody. Lewis is a

46:36

little sociopath. And then Sammy,

46:39

his response to everything is just to continually

46:41

run away from it. Right. He never really stays

46:43

in faces. I mean, I guess he does kind of like clock

46:45

his dad with something that was

46:47

in the house during the one DV

46:50

episode. But I

46:52

think the men are generally shown as

46:54

much weaker than the women. Charlie quickly,

46:57

you know, succumbs to his

46:59

lust and his drunkenness to commit this atrocity.

47:02

You know, same to some level with

47:05

soap at church being he's

47:08

weak, you know, again and again he gives

47:10

into like his more base impulses.

47:13

Um, whereas I think the women are shown

47:15

to have much more like strength

47:18

and survival skills and, and

47:21

more influence honestly. Like

47:24

the women are driving the communities at

47:26

every step of the way. 'cause even like in the,

47:29

in Charlie's childhood and Aunt Jimmy

47:31

has like got all this respect from her community.

47:33

And when the community comes together

47:36

to deal with her death and take care

47:38

of expenses and, and do all of

47:40

this, you really only see the women doing

47:43

all the work. You know? I

47:45

don't know. Any other

47:47

thoughts on Toni Morrison as feminist

47:49

author?

47:51

I think the way that she wrote

47:53

like different perspectives, I think in

47:55

it's in itself pretty feminist because she

47:58

could have just made the

48:00

men just the violent figures,

48:02

but then she did have the perspective, like

48:05

t's perspective on things. And so I

48:07

think she was essentially trying to

48:09

understand, or trying to be understanding

48:11

and wanting people to come at

48:14

his story from an understanding perspective as

48:16

well, which is I think feminist

48:19

within itself. Right. Because it's essentially

48:21

just trying to make him like

48:24

a full on character. Right? Like you, you understand

48:27

that it's that yes,

48:30

he made the choices that he

48:32

made, but a lot of his

48:35

surrounding was very like Mm-Hmm . societal influences

48:37

that made him right. Like

48:39

hate himself essentially. Yeah.

48:42

I will say, I'm like kind

48:44

of going personal on this, but the

48:46

rape scene of Pecola is incredibly

48:49

hard to read would be no

48:51

matter how you wrote it, incest is awful

48:53

and it's a violent act. And it, and

48:55

she's so little. She's just the little kid

48:57

when it happens to her. But

49:00

like Darlene was saying, I

49:04

think the way that it's written from Charlie's

49:07

perspective, you know, there's a

49:10

lot of delving into his sort

49:12

of complex thoughts about the act and

49:14

what's going through his mind at the time. Mm-Hmm.

49:17

And he's dealing with these sort of competing

49:20

urges of hate and love and lust

49:22

and being drunk and wanting to inflict

49:25

violence, but also wanting to be

49:27

tender towards this

49:29

little girl. You know, when

49:31

I, in a previous career I

49:33

worked sex abuse investigations, child sex abuse

49:36

investigations. And I will

49:38

say that this is probably the

49:40

closest description of an

49:42

event in terms of

49:45

matching perpetrator interviews

49:48

that I had, which I

49:51

should h ave done more research on this to know what

49:53

Toni Morrison's backgrounds and experiences

49:55

were and what she was drawing from when

49:58

she wrote that. But

50:00

the language used there a nd the way that

50:02

he d escribes the act is

50:05

very much what I would hear when I

50:08

was doing perpetrator

50:10

interviews and when

50:13

they would admit to what they have done, it was

50:15

often couched in this kind of language like

50:18

that I hated myself for doing this. I

50:20

was trying to love them. I

50:22

Almost like an excuse.

50:23

Yeah. Or

50:24

Like to like, like that's their

50:26

Logic . There's a rationalization in their head

50:29

. Yeah. But they still know

50:31

it was very wrong. And Charlie does too.

50:33

I mean like that's very clear through

50:35

line there that he knows what he's doing because

50:38

like he's is a very wrong thing. Yeah. 'cause

50:40

he's still looking at our like, but the very, I still

50:42

hate her. Yes. And the very wrong thing is part

50:44

of what's turning him on. I think that's explicitly

50:46

said in one of the sentences in that scene. Yeah.

50:49

And that's very, very true in

50:52

my experience to what actually

50:54

happens in those moments with, with

50:57

those situations. So I do think it's

50:59

interesting that she chose to write it that way and on

51:02

some level maybe humanize him, but it's a really complex

51:05

depiction of an event

51:08

. Right . It

51:08

Doesn't, not to absolve them .

51:09

Right. Like, and, and contrast that to

51:13

Tiana. This is not the first book we've

51:15

had a <laugh> rape or child molestation

51:18

seen . And it's, it's, we've had it in several of

51:20

the books that we've read, but they've

51:22

almost always been from the point of view of

51:24

the child experiencing it. Mm-Hmm

51:27

., I think this is the first time we've ever

51:29

seen it from the lens of the perpetrator.

51:33

That's really interesting. Why

51:36

do we think she chose to write it

51:38

that way?

51:39

I would say it could be in contrast

51:42

to, you said you didn't

51:44

know how to describe what happened to Charlie.

51:47

I was thinking that like

51:49

to me it's sexual assault. I think so

51:52

too . Um , so he probably didn't have the

51:54

words for it. And so he's self-medicated

51:56

with alcohol and um, you

51:59

know, not an excuse, but so

52:02

what he did to cola , he's

52:05

describing that and he also described

52:07

sort of his own, like

52:10

what happened to him, the sexual violence that happened to

52:12

him. And so , um, one

52:14

sort of resulted in hate the other is

52:16

sort of a mix of hate and as

52:19

much love as Charlie could possibly

52:22

muster .

52:22

It's twisted, but Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But it's

52:25

there like for, it's

52:27

not worth anything, but it is there. Yeah.

52:29

Yeah.

52:31

Yeah . Because do we know when, like how old Charlie

52:33

was when that happened to him?

52:35

Said he was No, he was 12. 12. Oh

52:37

Wow. So around the same age as Yeah .

52:40

Which I mean I think it's like a theme

52:42

that's often I think explored

52:45

in literature like that someone's like

52:48

that someone stays at an

52:50

age in which they experience like trauma. And

52:52

so he has never been

52:54

able to like understand like

52:57

love or his, like his

52:59

sexual feeling . Like all of that has been stunted

53:02

at Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> a really young age.

53:05

We do actually have a kind of nuance

53:08

to look at female sexuality with Mrs. Breedlove

53:10

as well. Mm . mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, there's

53:12

the part where she's kind of describing

53:15

when times were good Yeah. With

53:17

Charlie and it's

53:20

a really healthy description Yeah

53:22

. Of a sexual encounter for a woman.

53:24

And it , it's very centered, you

53:26

know, at a time he was centered on

53:29

her having equal pleasure

53:31

to him in the event. And especially things

53:34

were working bad ,

53:34

Especially in comparison to when you read about

53:38

junior's mother, whatever her Gerald. Yeah . Who

53:40

was

53:40

Gerald Always Geraldine

53:41

Thought she had to lie still and

53:44

tolerate it

53:44

When she said like, why couldn't there be a

53:46

better spot? Like where I don't have to like

53:48

lift up. She said under my arm. I

53:50

was like, what is happening? Sorry. I

53:53

know that's not supposed to be funny, but like it

53:55

, that's the comparison to

53:57

me. That's what I thought of it.

53:59

There's so much happening in this book. Yeah

54:01

. Like I just, I feel like there's so

54:03

very much on every page and there's

54:05

so much nuance in how she

54:07

explores all of these

54:09

different viewpoints that she writes from.

54:11

Yeah. Like she really inhabits

54:15

so many of the characters in this book as

54:17

an author and they're all so distinct and

54:19

I feel

54:19

Like they could each have their own like story

54:21

in itself. Mm-Hmm . .

54:23

Yes. You could totally see everyone in

54:26

this book that gets a chapter getting a book.

54:28

Yeah . And you'd wanna read it. Yeah

54:30

. And there would be enough there. They're that rich

54:32

and developed, I think. Yeah . Mm-Hmm. . Okay.

54:37

Before we move on from discussion, were there other

54:39

things that we wanted to make sure we talked about with

54:42

this book?

54:44

I think something I just wanted to note on

54:46

rereading it is that as

54:48

difficult as this book is to kind of get

54:51

through, I don't think that any of

54:53

the violence is like, just

54:55

for violence sake. Right.

54:57

It's not gratuitous ever. I agree with you

54:59

For me, but Toni Morrison, everything

55:01

felt nec not necessary,

55:04

what's the word? But like, intentional. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like,

55:06

it felt intentional. Like she was trying

55:08

to say something here and it wasn't just

55:10

to like it wasn't shock value.

55:12

Yeah. It wasn't like a , and then, and

55:14

then, and then I think that, and

55:16

I'm typically somebody, I don't like rereading books

55:18

because I'm just like, it's so many other books

55:21

that I to read but re to read for

55:23

the first time. But I feel like this is a book to reread.

55:26

And I definitely, this is my first reread, but

55:28

I don't think it will be my last,

55:29

It's a book to study, I think, like , honestly.

55:32

Yeah . There's so much there. And

55:35

I want to read for

55:36

A first novel. Yeah . Like, I

55:39

think it's a staggering work

55:41

to produce as your first novel <laugh> . I

55:43

mean, sure. I think that I

55:45

went back and I looked at like critical reception of

55:48

it and stuff. I did a little bit research just not

55:50

as much as I should have <laugh> and some

55:53

people like objected, I think, to that. There

55:55

were some simplistic language a couple of times, and

55:57

you can see that. Yes. Are there a couple

56:00

of sentences here and there that maybe she would've

56:02

wanted back? Sure. But

56:05

the scope of this book, and it's,

56:07

it's a pretty tightly edited book, I

56:10

will say. Mm-Hmm . . Like, it really is like a

56:12

handful of sentences that I would think she would want back.

56:14

Yeah. Um, I

56:17

think it's incredible for a first book.

56:19

Yeah . I just, you

56:21

know , uh, blown away by this book

56:24

and she just gets better hawa , keep going.

56:26

Yeah .

56:28

Read in like order of, like

56:30

Release. I think that's a smart way to do

56:32

it. And some of them do link together too, so.

56:34

Yeah. Yeah. I, one

56:37

thing this is not important and

56:39

maybe doesn't make it into the Cut, but

56:41

<laugh> , were either of you on Tree Grows in

56:44

Brooklyn?

56:45

No . That , not

56:46

Me . Okay. The , and this was before your

56:48

time. Yeah. <laugh> . The

56:50

, the candy buying scene with

56:53

the penny candy. Yeah. It

56:55

is. I think I noted

56:57

it somewhere in the book, but like, it

57:00

is so , uh, an echo

57:03

of, there's an almost identical scene

57:06

in Trigo in Brooklyn, and I think

57:08

it's, it's really interesting

57:10

to look at, like, I am positive

57:13

Tony Morrison read that book. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . It's

57:15

really interesting to look at Betty

57:18

Smith looking at some of these very same

57:20

issues, but

57:22

with white families

57:26

and immigrant families in a

57:28

slightly earlier time period. And

57:32

then I really feel like this

57:34

is almost , uh, just like an

57:36

he apparent it's a , a graduation she's

57:40

taking , like everything that happened

57:42

between Betty Smith writing that book and all

57:44

the literature that like came between

57:46

it Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , um, particularly stuff

57:49

around like the Harlem Renaissance and

57:51

I mean, Ralph Ellison, it

57:53

seems like such a clear influence on her and

57:56

she's just taking it like to another level.

57:59

And I, I

58:01

really appreciate that. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in a book, like

58:04

where you can have something that to me looks like

58:06

a definite homage to a very memorable

58:09

scene in an earlier work, but

58:11

make it your own and make

58:14

it say something similar

58:16

but different. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Like , it's

58:18

just really sophisticated writing.

58:20

I think, again, first time author, I,

58:23

she's a genius. Y'all,

58:25

I've never seen you gush about an author

58:27

or a book like this. Like, I was

58:29

not expecting this

58:31

<laugh> No. I was a mess. I read it again

58:33

and I just kept going backwards and then I said

58:35

, I read it the same piece again,

58:37

and then I'd go backwards again, and then I'd

58:39

start crying again. And yeah. I

58:41

just, it's, it's an incredibly powerful book.

58:44

And like, I,

58:46

I don't know, this should be mandatory reading to

58:49

me for like Yeah.

58:52

Everyone in this country <laugh> . Yeah . I

58:54

just think it's really important. Um

58:57

,

58:58

I haven't like fully formed my thoughts

59:00

on it, but it's back to the idea

59:02

of like invisibility and

59:05

the fact that they really idolized Shirley

59:07

Temple because they say that like,

59:09

she's not invisible, like for a child. Mm-Hmm . ,

59:11

she actually like, commands a lot of attention,

59:14

but like Shirley Temple is very much exploited

59:17

during her time. It's mentioned. Oh,

59:19

it is mentioned in it . Oh , I missed

59:21

It. She says somewhere in here, like, things didn't

59:24

turn out good for Shirley either or something.

59:26

And I was like, yeah, a

59:28

again, it's like ,

59:29

Yeah , very .

59:30

That's small. But she she

59:31

Got it right. Okay. I was like, yeah,

59:33

there must be a reason why she like chose this

59:36

particular character. I mean, grant , granted,

59:38

I don't know that there was any other like blue-eyed

59:40

blonde child

59:43

that had the level of

59:45

like commercial success that Shirley Temple did.

59:47

So she's a powerful symbol just in that

59:49

way. But yeah. Mirrors the

59:52

fact that Lala really wants, like, really

59:54

wants what Shirley Temple has, right. Like command

59:56

that Mm - Hmm. sort of attention. And then also

59:58

just like the sexual exploitation. So

1:00:00

it, yeah. Like it just all

1:00:02

connects in the end.

1:00:03

Well, and and I think that's a sophisticated

1:00:06

feminist lens for viewing that, right? Mm-Hmm. to

1:00:08

see Shirley Temple to view her through the eyes of

1:00:10

a child. Then flip that, have

1:00:12

it acknowledged that like that wasn't a

1:00:14

good thing. You know, as much as the kids

1:00:16

are being like, oh, I wish it's saying,

1:00:18

like, be careful what you wish for because

1:00:21

she's objectified. And, you

1:00:24

know , uh, yeah. I

1:00:26

totally agree with you on that. Um,

1:00:29

I guess before we move to this next little bit of script,

1:00:31

can we talk about the ending real quick? The

1:00:34

end of the book, I, I

1:00:36

don't know. I was struck by the last passages.

1:00:38

So the final couple of

1:00:40

pages begin with, so it was a little black

1:00:42

girl yearns for the blue eyes of a little white

1:00:44

girl. And the horror at the heart of

1:00:46

her yearning is exceeded only by the evil

1:00:49

of fulfillment. And then

1:00:51

the final sentence is,

1:00:53

at least on the edge of my town, among the garbage

1:00:56

in the sunflowers of my town, it's much,

1:00:58

much, much too late. And

1:01:02

what do we think about the ending? How are we supposed

1:01:04

to interpret what happens to

1:01:08

cola? Um, is

1:01:10

it fully dark? Are we supposed

1:01:12

to have some hope in there? You

1:01:14

know, I I

1:01:17

almost feel like she's trying to show,

1:01:20

Cola's madness is an indictment

1:01:22

of the town. It's

1:01:25

an indictment of society and everyone around

1:01:27

her. But for cola in

1:01:29

the end, is she getting almost a

1:01:31

form of salvation to be able to escape into

1:01:33

her mind like that and be free?

1:01:36

Like she now believes she is beautiful.

1:01:38

She now believes she matters even

1:01:41

if it's only internal

1:01:43

to herself.

1:01:45

Yeah, I think so. There's this line here that funny

1:01:47

as you're saying that I looked over and saw it

1:01:49

says, she, however, stepped over into

1:01:52

madness. A madness which protected

1:01:54

her from us simply because it brought us in

1:01:56

the end. So I feel like yes,

1:01:59

to answer your question in a short answer,

1:02:01

But in a maddening way.

1:02:03

In a maddening way, yeah.

1:02:04

Right. Because then you hear Soaphead

1:02:06

church, like you read his like dialogue

1:02:09

about like how he's basically saying

1:02:11

he's doing this for her, right? Like he,

1:02:13

he is the only one that's really empathizing with

1:02:16

her. He knows what she needs, he understands

1:02:18

her deeply. And so

1:02:20

he knows that he has to play into

1:02:22

this for her sake. And I

1:02:25

think you call BS on that when you're reading

1:02:27

it. 'cause you're just like, like, who

1:02:29

are you to really do that for her? Like, are

1:02:31

you really ev doing something for her? And

1:02:33

so I think that when

1:02:36

she does fall into that mindset,

1:02:39

you, you see what he's saying about like

1:02:42

how he felt like he was helping her, but

1:02:44

then you're like, that's not

1:02:47

help . Right. Like understandably,

1:02:49

like she can be lost in

1:02:52

her, in her own world about it, but

1:02:55

Yeah. It's clearly not a good outcome. Right.

1:02:58

But

1:02:59

Mean , but you realize like, is that really

1:03:01

the best alterna ? I mean

1:03:03

Well, so that's the thing. And then I get

1:03:05

back to the religious thing, right? Like, is

1:03:08

a man being murdered

1:03:10

on a cross really a good outcome? But

1:03:12

we're supposed to believe it is like that that

1:03:15

is a salvation in a sense.

1:03:17

So is is the old

1:03:20

cola being destroyed so

1:03:22

that New Cola can

1:03:24

live completely internal to herself

1:03:27

now?

1:03:28

Well , wasn't there a little bit of agency in that?

1:03:31

At least for, I'm not

1:03:33

a really super religious person. Right. But like he,

1:03:37

the way that it's framed is that he did

1:03:39

that for ,

1:03:40

He chose it.

1:03:41

He , yeah, he chose it and being

1:03:44

the son of God, he could have gone

1:03:46

Himself sort of it , but it was also sort of predestined. So did was

1:03:48

choice really there. Okay.

1:03:51

Because

1:03:51

That's what was promised that he

1:03:54

would send his only son to save the world. Like,

1:03:57

I don't know, I'm not sure what we're supposed to make

1:03:59

of the allegory, but I think that, that

1:04:02

there is supposed to be something there.

1:04:04

And also with like with

1:04:07

Claudia and Frieda being able to find some

1:04:09

sort of kernel of hope in the situation I

1:04:13

was Pecola destroyed to make us

1:04:15

better, you know? And is

1:04:17

that what the book is trying to like, we're

1:04:20

supposed to be better after we read

1:04:22

This us the do

1:04:23

Better like

1:04:25

Us the reader, but not the community. Exactly. Who apparently

1:04:28

we're bored of her. Well,

1:04:29

It's, yeah. It's, it's too late for Lorraine

1:04:31

Ohio. Is it too

1:04:34

late for us to take the

1:04:36

message she's trying to

1:04:38

give? I don't know

1:04:40

. It's such a, it's

1:04:42

such a complicated book.

1:04:43

Yeah . Yeah. And I guess 'cause it couldn't

1:04:45

have ended in any positive way. No

1:04:48

. Yeah . Because there's

1:04:48

No happy ending to a

1:04:52

rape and a dead baby. Yeah. Like, I

1:04:54

don't know what that would look like.

1:04:55

Well, like even if she hadn't thought of that whole

1:04:58

ending, it's like, given

1:05:00

what she was trying to say, could there have

1:05:02

been a happy ending?

1:05:03

Yeah, I don't think so.

1:05:04

Right.

1:05:07

No, it would've been gross. Like it, an attempt

1:05:09

to make a happy ending would've just read

1:05:12

really gross, I think.

1:05:14

Right.

1:05:14

I'm glad she did not try to do that.

1:05:17

So each episode we ask whether our book passes

1:05:20

the Bechtel test. The Bechtel

1:05:22

test asks whether a work features

1:05:24

two female characters who talk

1:05:26

to each other about something that doesn't

1:05:28

involve men or boys. So

1:05:31

does it pass?

1:05:32

Oh heck yeah.

1:05:33

Yes.

1:05:33

Yes.

1:05:34

Yeah, for sure. Um,

1:05:37

so many women, women talking to women <laugh>.

1:05:40

Yeah. I mean we had a whole conversation

1:05:42

about like how this is primarily

1:05:44

about women and like even the men kind

1:05:46

of serve to talk about women further.

1:05:48

So

1:05:48

Mm - Hmm. Yeah.

1:05:50

Even like this may be the only book

1:05:53

in which even the men are

1:05:55

focused on the women.

1:05:56

Yeah.

1:05:57

Yeah. The only

1:05:59

book that we've written. Not the only book on earth.

1:06:02

Yeah. < laugh > .

1:06:03

I didn't mean to imply that < laugh > .

1:06:06

Well, that's it for this episode of These Books

1:06:08

Made Me join us next time when we'll

1:06:10

discuss a frequently banned book that could serve us great

1:06:12

marketing material for Planned Parenthood. If

1:06:14

you think you know which book we're tackling next, drop

1:06:17

us a tweet. We're @pgcmls on

1:06:19

Twitter and #TheseBooksMadeMe.