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This episode contains distressing themes

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intended for a mature

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audience. Listen, a caution is advised.

1:47

After being linked to the murder of a woman,

1:49

she is also a victim of a murder. She

1:51

is also a victim of a murder. She

1:53

is also a victim of a murder. After

1:56

being linked to the murders of three women

1:59

in Glasgow, The perpetrator seemed

2:01

to be able to evade capture

2:03

despite having one of the most

2:05

well-known faces circulating in the press.

2:09

Tens of thousands of statements were

2:11

collected and nearly 1,000 suspects

2:14

were interviewed. Due

2:16

to the religious text he quoted to

2:19

a victim's sister, the nickname

2:21

given to the prime suspects

2:23

was by Belgium. He

2:26

was undetectable but far

2:28

from forgotten. His

2:30

victims had gone to the Barreland's

2:32

Ballroom in Glasgow's East End, a

2:34

well-known venue for single people meeting

2:36

partners. All were black and all

2:38

were strangled. First to die was auxiliary

2:40

nurse Patricia Docker in 1968. Six

2:44

months later the partly clad body of

2:46

Jemima McDonald, a mother of three, was

2:49

found in a derelict tenement. The third

2:51

Helen Patek was found in a backcourt

2:53

in Earl Street, Scotston in October of

2:55

the same year. Welcome

2:58

to Season 9 Episode 2

3:01

of They Walk Among Us, a

3:04

podcast dedicated to UK

3:06

true crime. Please

3:09

listen to Season 9 Episode

3:11

1 for Part 1 of

3:13

this two-part case. In

3:23

April 1971, almost

3:26

two years after Bible John's last

3:28

known victim was murdered, another

3:31

body was found. The

3:34

remains were discovered next to a

3:36

railway line at Babcock and Wilcox

3:38

engineering works in Renfrew. The

3:42

victim had been badly beaten and

3:45

her body was significantly decomposed.

3:48

A note found close by read, Mr.

3:51

Polis, I have killed

3:54

that woman in cold blood. A

3:57

Note was signed by Wilcox. Detective.

4:02

Superintendent Job A T was still

4:04

leading the hunt for the killer

4:06

and he had a team of

4:08

four detectives working alongside him. Forty

4:12

thousand witnesses had been interviewed

4:14

in relation to the inquiry.

4:16

However, there had been no promising

4:18

leads in the case for months.

4:22

And I've left at the scene. And

4:24

Renfrew was alleged to have been written

4:26

by the most wanted man in Scotland.

4:29

They will be. Investigators were skeptical

4:31

that it had actually been penned

4:33

by the killer of the first

4:35

three victims. Patricia. Dhaka.

4:38

To my Mcdonalds! And

4:40

the Hell and pots. After

4:43

an inquiry was undertaken, the

4:45

woman's bound by the railway

4:47

was identified as thirty seven

4:49

year old Dorothea Meet. a

4:52

nurse from Renfrewshire who had gone

4:54

missing six weeks earlier in like

4:56

century. Dorothea.

4:59

Had been at a family party in

5:01

the Cockles Loan area on February twenty

5:03

I. Never made it home

5:06

to tackle in New Crescent. According

5:09

to witnesses who provided statements

5:12

during the missing persons inquiry,

5:14

They. Heard screaming near the bridge

5:16

over the railway line. Flies to

5:18

Mcclain. Laugh and. A

5:22

man named Richard Cobra was identified

5:24

as someone same crossing the bridge

5:26

on the night Doris fail when

5:29

messing. Thirty.

5:32

Eight year old to breath was

5:34

well known to the police, having

5:36

been jailed for two years for

5:38

attacking women in the nineteen sixties.

5:41

Following. His release from prison. To.

5:44

Burrow Say was nicknamed the Snake

5:46

turn to house for a King

5:48

and was brought to Glasgow Sheriff

5:50

Court after being apprehended. Ruff

5:53

escape custody. And broken

5:55

to a nursing home. he

5:58

allegedly raped at 26-year-old

6:01

woman who was suffering from

6:03

terminal cancer. A

6:05

victim died before any legal action

6:07

could be taken. In

6:10

1964, Richard Cabruff went

6:12

on to rape a prison officer's

6:14

wife. He

6:16

had been given trustee status in the

6:18

prison and used his privilege

6:21

to access the victim's home. Cabruff

6:24

was released six years later. Man

6:28

questioned about the murder of Dorothea

6:30

Meacham. He was alleged to have

6:32

said, I've been thinking

6:34

it over and just want to say I

6:37

didn't murder the woman. It

6:39

was an accident. She

6:41

screamed. I didn't steal

6:43

the clothing. I panicked

6:46

and only took them to get rid of them.

6:50

Richard Cabruff denied making the statement to

6:53

police during his trial at Glasgow High

6:55

Court in July 1971 and

6:58

despite the note found next

7:01

to Dorothea's body claiming that

7:03

Bible John was responsible, the

7:05

jury found Cabruff guilty. He

7:09

was sentenced to life in prison.

7:21

In the years that followed, many

7:23

murder cases were believed to have

7:25

possible links to Bible John. On

7:29

October 2nd 1977, the

7:32

body of 36-year-old Hilda Macaulay

7:34

was found in bushes in

7:37

Renfrewshire by two young boys.

7:41

Hilda hadn't come home after a night out

7:43

and she had last been seen

7:46

leaving the Plaza Ballroom in govern

7:48

Hill Glasgow with a smartly dressed

7:50

man. Hilda

7:52

had been beaten and strangled and

7:55

her handbag was missing from the scene.

8:00

Two months later on December 4, the

8:02

body of 23-year-old nurse Agnes

8:05

Cooney was discovered in Moreland

8:07

near Kolderkruch's North Lanarkshire. She

8:11

was last seen two nights earlier

8:13

leaving the Claddersocial Club in Glasgow.

8:17

Her friend Marion McCluskey later told

8:19

the Daily Record that their friend

8:22

group had usually stuck together on

8:24

nights out. Marion

8:26

added, The girls never

8:28

worried about being unsafe when we

8:30

were out, as we would

8:32

usually end up at a pal's house. We

8:35

would even joke about having to be

8:37

careful in case Bible John got us.

8:42

Like Hilda McCauley, Agnes

8:44

had been beaten and her handbag

8:46

was missing. She

8:49

had also been stabbed multiple times.

8:54

In April 1979, 20-year-old Anna

8:56

Kenny was found murdered in

8:58

a shallow grave in Ark

9:00

Isle. She had gone

9:03

missing in August 1977. Similarities

9:08

between the murders in Glasgow

9:10

and the murders of two

9:12

teenage friends in Edinburgh that

9:14

same year didn't go unnoticed.

9:18

On October 15th

9:20

1977, 17-year-old friends Helen Scott

9:23

and Christine Edie went out

9:25

together at the World's End

9:27

Park on the High Street.

9:31

They left together at closing time, but

9:34

neither of the teenagers made it home.

9:37

Their naked bodies were found the

9:39

following day over six miles apart

9:42

in fields in East Lothian. They

9:45

had been beaten, raped and strangled.

9:49

One leg of Christine's tights was tied

9:51

around her neck. The

9:54

other had been used to bind her

9:56

wrists behind her back. Helen

10:00

Scott and Christine Edie's murders were

10:02

linked to a man named Angus

10:04

Sinclair. Sinclair had

10:07

killed a seven-year-old girl named Catherine Greenhill

10:09

in 1961 when he was 16 years

10:13

old. In 1978 he

10:16

murdered 17-year-old Mary Gallagher

10:18

in Glasgow. At

10:21

the time of his conviction for the murder

10:23

of Helen Christine in October 2014 Sinclair

10:28

was serving a life sentence for

10:30

multiple sexual assaults on children under

10:32

the age of 14. He

10:35

was thought to have committed the murders

10:37

with his brother-in-law Gordon Hamilton who

10:40

died 18 years before the trial.

10:43

The murders of Anna Kenny, Hilda

10:45

Macaulay and Agnes Cooney were believed

10:47

to be linked to Sinclair. Still

10:50

he was never charged in relation

10:52

to their deaths. Angus

10:55

Sinclair lived in Glasgow at the time

10:58

of the murders attributed to Bible John

11:01

but he did not resemble any of

11:03

the sketches or photo fits released by

11:05

the police. Glasgow

11:11

investigators began reviewing the case of

11:13

Bible John in the autumn of

11:15

1995 From

11:18

their headquarters at Partik police

11:20

office they uploaded thousands

11:22

of statements from the murdering

11:25

quarries of Patricia Docker, Jemima

11:27

McDonald and Helen Partik into

11:29

a database. Assisted

11:32

by an expert in crime analysis

11:35

the computer system would be able

11:37

to highlight any links between names

11:39

and events in the statements from

11:41

the three murder investigations. Detective

11:44

Chief Inspector Jim McEwen said, For

11:48

the first time modern policing techniques are

11:50

being applied to this case. Detective

11:56

Superintendent Joe Beatty who led

11:58

the original investigation had

12:00

since retired but when

12:02

interviewed he made a shocking revelation.

12:06

He explained that the three

12:08

murders had never really been

12:10

linked stating there is

12:12

certainly evidence that would have come up in

12:14

a DNA test but of course

12:17

we didn't have DNA testing in those

12:19

days. If the man

12:21

was put in front of an ID parade then

12:23

it was up to the witnesses to pick him

12:25

out. Everyone has their

12:27

own idea as to who Bible John

12:30

was but I have never

12:32

been convinced that he carried out all

12:34

three killings. Helen

12:38

Puttock's murder was the main focus

12:40

of the review. My

12:43

sister Jean had provided detailed statements

12:45

about the prime suspect's appearance and

12:47

demeanor but there was also evidence

12:49

found at the scene in 1969

12:51

that could not

12:53

be forensically analyzed until

12:56

decades later. Seaman

12:58

stains had been found on the

13:01

tights wrapped around Helen's neck. In

13:04

1995 forensic technology

13:06

had advanced to the point where

13:09

a DNA profile could be obtained

13:11

from the semen stain and compared

13:13

with suspects. There

13:16

was a man who stood out during

13:18

the reinvestigation however it would

13:20

not be easy to rule him in

13:22

or out of the inquiry. John

13:28

Irving McInnes was 31 years old

13:30

at the time of the Bible

13:32

John murders and a very

13:34

different man than he had been in his

13:36

youth. Raised

13:39

in the Plymouth Brethren Church by

13:41

his overbearing mother Elizabeth, McInnes

13:44

and his siblings were brought

13:46

up to shun alcohol, smoking,

13:48

gambling and places of entertainment.

13:52

McInnes' father died in 1957 when he was

13:54

15 years old and struggling to find some

13:59

guidance. and a sense of belonging, he

14:02

joined the Scots guard when he turned

14:04

18. His former

14:06

platoon instructor recalled him as being

14:08

a sad figure and an awkward

14:11

boy with no confidence. By

14:15

1968, McInnis was back

14:17

in Glasgow and had married a woman

14:19

named Ella. They

14:21

had two children, Lorna and Kenneth

14:24

and McInnis soon began working as

14:26

a furniture salesman. His

14:29

former employer Jim Goodfellow later

14:31

remarked, He was

14:33

a real oddball, a loner,

14:36

and was always spouting the Bible. I

14:39

remember interviewing McInnis because he was

14:41

so smart, tidy, polite and quiet.

14:44

Even then he was quoting the Bible.

14:50

McInnis had since left the Plymouth brethren

14:52

and was known to drink and gamble

14:54

a lot. His

14:57

boss said that McInnis often missed

14:59

meetings on Thursday nights because he

15:01

would go to the Barrowland Ballroom

15:03

instead. Jock Fisher,

15:05

a friend of McInnis said, I

15:08

used to go to Barrowland at the same time

15:10

as John. He was always

15:12

really smartly dressed, always

15:15

wore a cravat, and

15:17

in the pub he was always quoting the

15:19

Bible. One of his

15:21

favourite quotes was from the Corinthians. He

15:24

used to say, Although

15:26

I speak with tongues of men

15:28

and angels and have no charity,

15:31

I am nothing. In

15:35

the early 1970s, McInnis and

15:37

Ella divorced and she moved

15:39

away with their two children.

15:43

He was seen as a loner and

15:45

McInnis became a recluse and attempted

15:48

to end his life multiple times.

15:51

In his final attempt in April 1980, he

15:55

could not be revived after he severed

15:57

an artery in his upper arm. During

16:03

the review of Helen Puttock's murder,

16:06

John McInnes's name came up. Investigators

16:09

obtained DNA from McInnes's relatives

16:12

to compare with the semen

16:14

sample found on Helen Puttock's

16:16

tights. Analysts

16:18

concluded that there was a partial

16:21

match between his siblings DNA and

16:23

the DNA found in 1969. In

16:28

January 1996, a Strathclype

16:30

police spokesman, Superintendent Louis

16:32

Munn, was confident in

16:34

the direction of the

16:36

investigation. He said, Further

16:40

inquiries have yet to be made,

16:42

but we think we may know the

16:45

identity of the person who may

16:47

have been responsible for the death

16:49

of Helen Puttock. Police

16:52

in Glasgow may be a step closer

16:54

to discovering the identity of a serial

16:56

killer who murdered three women in the

16:58

1960s. Even if

17:00

the forensic tests show John McInnes killed

17:03

Helen Puttock, they won't necessarily prove he

17:05

killed the other two women, but

17:07

they could help finally resolve the

17:10

mystery of who was Bible John.

17:12

Advances in DNA testing mean that police

17:15

have more of a chance of concluding

17:17

long-running unsolved murder investigations like the Bible

17:19

John killings and the world's end murders

17:21

in Edinburgh, where a team of detectives

17:23

are reviewing evidence from the deaths of

17:26

Helen Anne Stott and Christine Edith to

17:28

see if the new DNA tests might

17:30

help track down their killers. Helen

17:37

Puttock's widow and George struggled

17:39

to cope when her murder

17:41

investigation was reopened. After

17:44

the police informed him that they were reviewing

17:46

the case, he suffered a

17:49

heart attack. George

17:51

told the Daily Record that he had

17:53

come up with his own theories in

17:55

the decade since Helen was murdered. For

17:59

years, I was... was convinced Helen had

18:01

been killed by the Yorkshire Ripper.

18:04

I had managed to link him to the place

18:06

and the time. What everyone

18:09

didn't seem to understand all these

18:11

years was that I was dying

18:13

in sight. All these

18:15

years of pain and anger. It

18:18

was so bad that I never had the

18:20

courage to visit her grave after the funeral.

18:25

George spoke about the media coverage at

18:27

the time of Helen's death and

18:29

how she had been portrayed. He

18:32

had filed lawsuits to defend his

18:34

wife's reputation. People

18:37

made her out to be at heart. That's

18:40

what hurts the most. I

18:42

want people to know what Helen really

18:44

was. A terrific

18:46

mum and a vivacious

18:48

girl. We

18:52

married in 1973 and

18:55

his new wife Mavis gave birth

18:57

to a son Mark who was

18:59

raised alongside David and Michael. The

19:02

sons George shared with Helen. Speaking

19:06

about the news that the police thought

19:08

they knew the identity of Helen's killer,

19:11

George said, I would be

19:13

relieved if they proved beyond any question

19:15

that this person had done it. The

19:18

police need to put the record straight.

19:21

They have come in for an awful lot

19:23

of criticism. I know the efforts

19:25

that went in at that time. They

19:28

couldn't have done anything more. It

19:31

would be a vindication of their efforts if

19:33

they got him. It

19:35

would be proof that they never ever

19:37

gave up. George

19:40

and Helen's son David who was 31

19:42

years old at the time added, I

19:46

would have killed the murderer no question.

19:49

I wanted to see him go through the

19:51

same pain as mum did. I

19:53

will never forget that he got away with

19:55

this. I will never

19:57

forgive him or his family. I

20:00

just can't. What really

20:02

hurts is that I didn't know my

20:04

mum better. I didn't

20:06

see how pretty she was like dad

20:08

describes her. I was too

20:11

young to know her well." The

20:17

police applied to the Procurator

20:19

Fiscal for permission to exhume

20:21

John McInnes' remains from a

20:23

cemetery in Stonehouse, South Lanarkshire

20:25

in late January 1996. Dr.

20:31

Mary Cassidy, a top forensic pathologist

20:33

who later became the state pathologist

20:35

in Ireland, was tasked with handling

20:38

the exhumation on behalf of the

20:40

Crown. She said at

20:42

the time, there will be no

20:45

doubt whether this is Bible John or

20:47

not. If DNA testing

20:49

had been around in the days of

20:51

Jack the Ripper, things could have been

20:53

very different. I've only

20:56

been at one exhumation before, and

20:58

I was amazed at how much of the body

21:00

was left. It all

21:03

depends on soil conditions, but

21:05

we hope to find more than just

21:07

a pile of bones. Pathologists

21:10

are beginning tests on the body of

21:12

the man police believe may be Bible

21:14

John. Type security surrounded the

21:16

five-hour operation which began at dawn.

21:18

Police now hope scientific tests will

21:21

bring to an end a 27-year

21:23

murder mystery. On

21:26

the morning of February 1, 1996,

21:30

temperatures were below freezing and

21:32

a tent had been erected

21:34

over John McInnes' grave site

21:36

in Stonehouse Cemetery. His

21:40

casket had been placed on top of

21:42

his father's casket, and

21:44

when his mother died in 1983,

21:47

she was also interred in the same grave.

21:51

Dr. Cassidy wasn't phased by

21:53

the difficult task. She

21:55

remarked, Death

21:57

is my job. I deal

21:59

with it. it and see it first

22:02

hand every day. It's not

22:04

the dead person I feel sorry for, it's

22:07

the relatives or in a case like

22:09

this the victims. This

22:12

is a pretty straightforward task but

22:14

murders are what makes this job exciting.

22:18

Obviously this is a particularly

22:20

fascinating case and I'm

22:22

delighted to be involved." The

22:25

grim task of exhuming the grave of

22:27

John McInnes began at first light this

22:29

morning. Detectives believe the former soldier

22:32

who committed suicide in 1980 was the serial

22:34

killer Bible

22:37

John who terrorized Glasgow in

22:39

the 1960s. In

22:41

the extreme cold police had to use

22:43

pneumatic drills to penetrate the frozen ground.

22:46

Then out of sight two forensic

22:48

pathologists began the task of unearthing

22:50

the remains. About 50

22:52

journalists and photographers kept at

22:55

a respectable distance witnessed today's

22:57

exhumation. A quarter of a

22:59

century after the murders the investigation

23:01

is once again making the headlines.

23:04

It will take pathologists in Glasgow

23:06

around three weeks to complete the

23:08

DNA tests. Then police and the

23:10

families of his victims will finally

23:12

know whether or not John McInnes

23:15

was Bible John. Once

23:17

McInnes's casket was removed from the

23:20

grave, his body was

23:22

taken to the mortuary where hair

23:24

and bone samples were extracted. The

23:27

samples were then sent to the

23:29

forensic laboratory for McInnes's DNA to

23:32

be compared to the semen sample

23:34

found on Helen Puttock's types. The

23:37

process of matching DNA samples which has

23:39

become commonly known as genetic fingerprinting is

23:41

a complex and precise science with no

23:44

known shortcuts. First of all you have

23:46

to dissolve the bone. Once you've dissolved

23:48

the bone you can extract away all

23:51

the biomolecules that you're not interested in such

23:53

as protein leaving you with a DNA solution.

23:56

You can then take that DNA solution and amplify

23:58

specific regions of it that you want. interested

24:00

in. If it's been moist, if it's

24:02

been warm, the DNA starts to break

24:04

down. DNA within us at the moment

24:07

is a long molecule. The

24:09

longer it leaves after death, the more it

24:11

breaks down, the more it becomes difficult to

24:13

get an accurate DNA profile from it. Investigators

24:18

had hoped that forensic ondontologists

24:20

could examine McInnes's teeth to

24:22

compare them with a bite

24:24

mark inflicted on Helen Puttock,

24:26

but McInnes had been wearing

24:28

dentures at the time of

24:30

his death. Offering

24:33

his opinion, Glasgow University

24:36

oral pathology professor Donald

24:38

McDonald remarked, the

24:40

mark on the right wrist of Helen

24:42

Puttock could be a bite caused by

24:44

the teeth of John McInnes. Because

24:47

of the limited detail evident in the

24:49

bite, it is not possible

24:52

to make a valid judgment about the

24:54

probability that the mark on Helen Puttock's

24:56

wrist was a bite made by John

24:59

McInnes. The odd

25:01

ontological evidence does not therefore

25:03

point clearly or convincingly to

25:05

John Irving McInnes as being

25:07

the originator of a bite.

25:15

John Clyde police say DNA tests are

25:17

continuing on the remains of the man

25:19

they believe was the 60s serial killer

25:22

Bible John, and they

25:24

warn a final outcome in the

25:26

complex scientific process is not imminent.

25:29

That news has enraged the family

25:32

of former soldier John McInnes. His

25:34

remains were exhumed from a lanyxured graveyard

25:36

more than two months ago. Now

25:39

his relatives say detectives should publish

25:41

their findings or clear the McInnes

25:43

family name. Initially the police had

25:45

high hopes of an early and positive

25:48

DNA match, proving McInnes had raped and

25:50

murdered Helen Puttock all those years ago.

25:52

And that's even using samples from a

25:55

corpse and a 16 year

25:57

old one at that, as in the case

25:59

of John Irving. McInnis. After

26:06

months of delays, the

26:08

Crown Office in Edinburgh finally issued

26:10

a statement about the DNA results.

26:13

Released on news agency WIRES within the

26:16

past hour, a five-page statement from the

26:18

Crown Office saying there is not sufficient

26:20

evidence to link John McInnis to the

26:22

scene of the murder of Helen Puttock.

26:25

It adds there is no evidence to

26:27

suggest that stains are here left near

26:29

the body of Helen Puttock originated from

26:31

John McInnis. I would hope there

26:33

is a public apology for the

26:35

McInnis family for the way they have been

26:37

treated by this whole appalling escapade. And

26:40

I hope it is given the same publicity as

26:42

all the inferences and allegations was made five months

26:45

ago. Strathclyde Police's own labs

26:47

couldn't make a match. It's believed

26:49

there were problems separating DNA from

26:51

bone fragments. Samples were then

26:53

sent to more sophisticated labs at Cambridge

26:56

University and Munich, where again no match

26:58

could be made. Tonight's development brings to

27:00

an end an awkward five months for

27:02

Strathclyde Police, but the Bible John Affair

27:05

is still far from over. The

27:09

results were yet another devastating

27:11

blow for Helen Puttock's widower

27:13

George, who spoke of how

27:15

the police had raised not only his

27:17

hopes, but the hopes of his

27:19

sons. George

27:22

told the Daily Record, Every

27:24

time an inquiry into Helen's murder

27:27

is mentioned, it brings back

27:29

all the grief for myself and my

27:31

family. And if they don't

27:33

close the inquiry for good, uncertain

27:36

something like this will happen again.

27:39

I have been treated dreadfully. Strathclyde

27:42

Police seem to have forgotten there

27:44

are people who are still suffering.

27:47

I feel for the family of John

27:49

McInnis. They don't deserve

27:51

this either. Decades

27:56

later, Dr. Mary Cassidy was interviewed

27:58

about her life. life as

28:00

a forensic pathologist. She

28:03

voiced her opinion that a

28:05

definitive result may have been

28:07

possible if the investigators had

28:09

waited ten more years before

28:12

exhuming John McInnis. DNA

28:15

at that time just wasn't quite there

28:17

yet for that kind of material. It

28:20

is now, she said. With

28:22

the Bible John 1 we were just a

28:24

wee bit premature in rushing to do it

28:26

at that time, but

28:29

hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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31:23

In 1993, a woman had

31:26

come forward to tell the

31:28

police that she believed she

31:30

knew the true identity of

31:32

Bible John. 42-year-old Evelyn George

31:35

had seen news articles about

31:37

the case and felt that

31:39

her 63-year-old brother-in-law fit the

31:41

bill. James Hunter

31:44

had sexually abused Evelyn from the

31:46

age of 3 until

31:48

she was 17 years old. She

31:51

later told the daily record. The

31:55

abuse happened hundreds of times and

31:57

often after he finished he would resign.

32:00

verses of the Bible at me. Four

32:03

years ago there were stories in

32:05

the papers about Bible John. That's

32:08

when I went to police. Evelyn

32:12

explained that she had put what had happened

32:14

to the back of her mind for years,

32:17

but it resurfaced when she was

32:19

in her mid-twenties. When

32:22

she told her family members about the

32:24

abuse she endured throughout her childhood, they

32:27

stopped speaking to her until another

32:29

victim came forward. It

32:32

was only then they accepted Evelyn

32:34

had been telling the truth. James

32:39

Hunter was ultimately cleared of any

32:42

involvement in the murders attributed to

32:44

Bible John. He

32:46

was however sentenced to 12 years in

32:48

prison for sexual abuse in March 1997.

32:57

Detective Superintendent Joe Beattie who

32:59

had originally led the investigation

33:01

into Bible John passed

33:04

away in February 2000. He

33:07

had told reporters multiple times that

33:10

he was never convinced that the

33:12

murders of Patricia Dokker, Jemima McDonald

33:14

and Helen Partik were the work

33:17

of a serial killer. In

33:24

October 2000, a new

33:27

suspect emerged when a US

33:29

citizen contacted psychologist Ian Stephen

33:32

after reading a profile of the

33:34

killer the professor had published online.

33:38

Professor Stephen was told that a

33:40

relative of the informant had been

33:42

behaving strangely in the late 1960s

33:44

when he was living in Glasgow

33:46

with his wife and children. The

33:50

man was the son of a police officer and

33:52

had been a member of the boys brigade.

33:56

He also bore a resemblance to the

33:58

photo-fit of Bible John. and

34:00

he had moved to England in 1970. After

34:06

Professor Stephen passed this information

34:08

on to Strathclyde police, retired

34:10

CID officer Caroline Hughes told

34:13

the press, this

34:15

is fascinating because a lot of people

34:17

who worked on this at the time

34:19

believed it was a police officer who

34:21

was responsible or at least someone with

34:24

the knowledge of the police. The

34:26

other interesting aspect is the fact that

34:29

this man has a lapel badge on

34:31

his suit jacket, which could

34:33

tie in with the boys brigade connection.

34:36

Bible John's teeth were very

34:38

distinctive, almost as good as

34:40

a fingerprint, and if this

34:42

man's dental records could be sourced, the

34:45

officers would know very quickly if they

34:47

had the right man. As

34:51

it turned out the man had

34:53

been questioned and eliminated from the

34:55

inquiry in 1970. The

35:03

case continued to be reviewed

35:05

periodically and several men

35:07

who had been questioned during the

35:09

original investigation were asked to provide

35:12

DNA samples. In

35:15

2004 DNA found at the

35:17

scene of a minor crime was said

35:19

to be an 80% match to the

35:22

DNA found on Helen Puttack's clothing. Detective

35:25

Chief Superintendent David Swindle was

35:28

leading the inquiry and

35:30

it was reported that the police

35:32

were confident the person who committed

35:34

the minor crime was related to

35:36

Bible John. However

35:39

frustratingly nothing more came of

35:41

the supposed breakthrough. Later

35:47

that year a retired detective revealed

35:49

that he believed Bible John's words

35:51

would be the key to identifying

35:54

Helen Puttack's killer. The

35:56

former officer disclosed that the police

35:58

had still not revealed the exact

36:01

chapter that the killer had mentioned.

36:04

Good. It was a

36:06

specific text and one which is popular

36:08

to this day. If

36:10

I started the sentence 90% of

36:13

people could finish it, that's

36:15

how well known it is. The

36:18

man running the inquiry, Jobiti, was

36:20

a lovely man, but he

36:22

also gave a lot of information to the

36:24

press at the time. There

36:26

was hardly anything left over and

36:29

the bible quote was something which

36:31

we tried to protect. The

36:36

following year Strathclyde police opened

36:39

an unsolved cold case unit

36:41

led by Detective Superintendent Kenny

36:43

Waters. The

36:46

officer pledged to the public that

36:48

the unit would examine the cases

36:50

where no one has been detected

36:52

or where someone has been reported

36:54

to the Crown Office, but a

36:56

decision has been taken not to

36:58

proceed. Some

37:00

of the cases will predate 1975,

37:02

Waters said, and

37:05

one such as those which fall

37:07

under the bible John Banner will

37:09

be included. In

37:13

October 2005, Les

37:16

Brown, a retired detective chief inspector

37:18

who had been a member of

37:21

the serious crime squad in Glasgow

37:23

in the late 60s, passed on

37:25

information to the Unsolved Cold Case

37:27

Unit about someone he believed matched

37:30

the description of Bible John. Brown

37:33

said that in late 1969 he

37:36

had arrested a man outside the

37:38

Barrowland Ballroom following reports that the

37:40

individual had been arguing with a

37:43

woman he met inside. The

37:46

man told DCI Brown that his name

37:48

was John White and that he lived

37:50

on St. Andrew Street. It

37:53

Was later determined that he had given

37:55

a false name and in fact lived

37:57

with his mother in the Gourbles. Acting

38:01

the there could be a connection to

38:03

the Bible John investigation. Brown.

38:05

Were cold. The cold in

38:08

the officer in charge of the case. He.

38:10

Walked around him once and said that's

38:12

the nearest yet but it's not him.

38:15

We. Were told to let him go on. What

38:18

could we do? We. Had told

38:20

the officer in charge. In the next day

38:23

we will hold a way to another murder.

38:26

After we arrested him the mud to

38:28

start. A might or

38:30

might not be significant. In

38:33

hindsight, maybe we should not have

38:35

let him got. A

38:39

few years later, less brown spoke

38:41

with another Glasgow detect says he

38:43

had arrested a man outside the

38:45

Barrow land over. The

38:47

man had been hit in the head with

38:50

a baton and needed to be taken to

38:52

the hospital states. And

38:54

he's hangs house were removed. He managed

38:56

to escape. The

38:58

man had told Detective Chief Inspector

39:01

Braun Mclaughlin that his name was

39:03

John White. And that he

39:05

lives in Suntan. True, straight. As

39:08

Brown told The herald, It. Wasn't

39:10

just that he matched the description or

39:12

gave a false nine. It

39:15

was his whole demeanor. This

39:17

was a guy who was just about to take

39:19

a girl haim to wherever. And he's

39:21

been interrupted in that process. It

39:24

think he'd be annoyed. But. He

39:26

never batted an eye. He

39:30

just so happens that in December two

39:32

thousand and five. A man

39:34

named John Edgar identified himself as

39:36

the man lead Brown had spoken

39:39

about. Edgar explained that

39:41

he had jumped out of a window

39:43

at the Royal Infirmary because he was

39:46

trunks. However, he maintained

39:48

that he had nothing to do with

39:50

the mud is. That. Cassette.

39:53

On. Gives them Dna say once. it's

39:55

an odd sue anyone who said I

39:57

was Bible John. Mr.

40:00

hope they catch the bastard who did it.

40:03

I've been ribbed by my friends for

40:05

years after I told them I was

40:07

arrested twice. I was

40:09

even told to stand in a line-up so

40:11

Helen Puttak's sister could take a look at

40:13

me." Joe Beatty heading

40:15

the investigation was with her as she

40:17

looked at the line-up, but

40:19

she didn't pick me out. In

40:24

a book Les Brown released earlier

40:26

that year, he described former detective

40:28

Joe Beatty's reluctance to consider suspects

40:31

that did not match the fight

40:33

I fed. The

40:35

former detective chief inspector wrote,

40:38

by that time Joe had developed

40:40

an emperor complex. He was

40:42

so obsessed with catching Bible John,

40:45

he believed he'd instantly recognise

40:47

him. DCI

40:51

Brian McLaughlin spoke out in

40:54

2012 about the description of

40:56

Bible John that had been

40:58

published based on Helen's sister

41:01

Jean's recollection. He

41:03

said that the description given by the

41:05

manager of the Barrowland Ballroom was different

41:08

from the one the police focused on.

41:11

McLaughlin told the Express

41:13

newspaper. He was a

41:15

busy place and the stewards had

41:17

to know their stuff. The

41:19

man in charge was particularly good at his

41:22

job and had a good memory

41:24

for faces. The man who

41:26

left the ballroom with Helen Puttak got into

41:28

an argument with him over some money that

41:30

was stuck in a cigarette machine. It

41:33

was a dispute over 10 pence. It sounds

41:36

ridiculous now, but it was the price of

41:39

a pint in those days. Eventually

41:41

the man agreed to come back the next

41:43

day to collect his money when the machine

41:46

had been emptied, but of

41:48

course he never did. The manager

41:50

was never happy with the painting, both

41:53

facially or the colour of his hair,

41:56

and was very impressed with him as a

41:58

witness. In

42:05

May 2007, 61-year-old

42:08

Glasgow native Peter Tobin was

42:10

convicted of murdering a 23-year-old

42:14

Polish student named Angelica Kluk

42:16

at a church in Glasgow.

42:19

Tobin had a history of violent

42:21

sexual assault against young girls and

42:23

women and his former

42:25

wives recounted years of horrific

42:27

sexual and physical abuse, some

42:30

of which had been prompted by the

42:32

fact that they were menstruating. Sanitary

42:35

pads had been found by

42:37

the bodies of Patricia Dokker,

42:39

Jemima McDonald and Helen Parthok.

42:42

Tobin had been in his early twenties at

42:45

the time of the Bible John murders and

42:48

was known to go out to dance halls in

42:50

Glasgow before he moved to Brighton in 1969, around

42:52

the time

42:55

that the killing stopped. An

42:58

investigation called Operation Anagram was set

43:00

up to see if there were

43:03

any links between Tobin and Unsolved

43:05

Homicides throughout the UK. Because

43:09

of Tobin's age, religious background, past

43:11

violent offending and the suggestion that

43:13

he had attacked ex-partners while they

43:16

were on their period. The

43:18

police had to consider the possibility that

43:20

he was Bible John. In

43:24

2011 a woman named Patricia Chambers

43:26

came forward to report that she

43:28

had been raped by a man

43:30

she met at the Barreland Ballroom

43:32

in the late 1960s. While

43:36

watching a crime watch appeal about

43:38

Peter Tobin, she recognised

43:41

him as her attacker. I've

43:44

no doubt in my mind that Bible

43:46

John and Peter Tobin are the same

43:49

person, she said. Everything

43:51

was the same about my attack,

43:54

the place where Bible John met women

43:56

and what he did to them. I

43:59

know it's Tobin. No

44:03

conclusive link was found between Peter

44:05

Tobin and Bible John but the

44:07

police did uncover two bodies in

44:09

the garden of a house Tobin

44:11

lived in in Margate. Tobin

44:15

allegedly claimed to a psychiatrist that he

44:17

had killed over 40 women

44:20

and go did the police to prove

44:22

it. He

44:24

died in custody in October 2022. In

44:33

February 2008, Patricia

44:36

Dockers son Alex spoke out for the

44:38

first time in 40 years. He

44:42

described how he feels whenever he sees

44:44

a picture of his mother on the

44:47

television or in the newspapers. Alex

44:50

told the daily record, There

44:53

is the four-year-old part of me

44:55

that recognizes the lady as my

44:57

mother, but the rational me,

45:00

the adult, sees her in

45:02

a more detached way. I

45:05

only have the vaguest memories, little

45:08

things like walking in a park with

45:10

her in Glasgow. I

45:12

do feel dreadfully sorry that her life was

45:14

ended in such a way and at such

45:16

a point where she was barely into her

45:19

20s. I

45:21

can't say that I have suffered in a

45:23

tangible way. It is

45:25

difficult to gauge how it may have affected

45:27

me. Who knows what

45:30

it would have been like if she hadn't

45:32

died. Two

45:36

years later Helen Puttock's sister Jean

45:38

who had provided the description of

45:40

the prime suspect passed

45:42

away aged 74. Helen's

45:46

widower George believed the police had

45:48

focused too much on Jean's evidence.

45:52

In 2021 George said, The

45:55

police placed too much pressure on Jean

45:58

who would have been drunk that night. as well.

46:01

Her recollections would have been hazy.

46:05

I think a lot of mistakes were made and

46:07

now there is no evidence so

46:09

I don't think we'll ever get any answers."

46:13

Jean gave descriptions but she'd had

46:15

some whiskies before going to the

46:17

Barrowlands. Police should

46:19

have looked for more witnesses but

46:22

Joe B.T. the officer in charge

46:24

was said that she was the

46:27

only reliable true witness. Retired

46:31

Glasgow detective Joe Jackson agreed

46:34

with George Patek. He

46:37

said that the police should have considered

46:39

the description given by the bouncers and

46:41

the manager who saw the man with

46:43

Helen and Jean. The

46:45

former detective added their evidence

46:48

did not seem to count for much

46:50

with Mr. B.T. Many

46:54

believed that the murders had been

46:56

committed by different people and that the

46:59

media had created a myth through the

47:01

tunnel vision of the investigating officers who

47:04

seemed to be looking for a

47:06

single killer who didn't exist. The

47:10

families of the victims, Patricia

47:12

Dokker, Jemima McDonald

47:14

and Helen Patek, never

47:17

recovered from the horrifying ordeal

47:19

they endured. In

47:24

2021 George Patek spoke candidly about

47:26

the impact Helen's murder had on

47:28

their youngest son Michael. He

47:31

said, sadly Michael

47:34

passed away last year.

47:36

He was tormented by Helen's

47:38

death. My son never

47:40

got over the loss of his mother and

47:43

was affected by it his whole life.

47:46

He found out about her murder by mistake

47:48

from a school friend as I had wanted

47:50

to wait until he was about 12 before

47:53

telling both my boys what happened,

47:56

but Michael found out when he was about 8

47:58

or so. and from that

48:01

moment on he was tormented. It

48:04

was very sad. Michael

48:06

struggled his whole life with

48:08

Helen's death. In

48:12

May 2022, David

48:14

Putter Kellan's surviving son voiced his

48:16

wish that the police would look

48:19

at the murders again to try

48:21

and get some closure for the

48:23

families. My

48:25

dad George is in his eighties and

48:27

has poor health. The

48:29

murder still haunts him and he

48:31

deserves some justice. So

48:33

does my mum. Dad

48:35

didn't think it was right that me and

48:37

my brother Michael knew at such a young

48:40

age and tried to shield us from that,

48:43

but we had heard some things from other

48:45

kids and had a vague awareness so dad

48:47

had to sit us down and tell us

48:49

what happened to mum. For

48:52

a long time afterwards I suffered

48:54

nightmares and struggled with it, but

48:56

over the years I've read everything I could on

48:59

it, but it often feels

49:01

like I'm walking a tightrope with my

49:03

dad. I don't want to

49:05

bring back sad memories for him, so

49:08

I try not to ask him too much.

49:13

George Putter passed away later

49:15

that year. A

49:20

month earlier, Jemima McDonald's great-granddaughter

49:22

Sammy had told a reporter

49:24

for the daily record that

49:26

she wondered if the murder

49:28

had been racially motivated. The

49:31

father of Jemima's youngest children was

49:33

a man from the West Indies

49:35

called Bunny Motley. Sammy

49:38

remarked, There are

49:40

so many ifs and buts about

49:42

my great-grand's murder. Perhaps

49:45

she told the man who killed

49:47

her about her children and bunny.

49:50

I have wondered if he killed her

49:52

because he didn't approve of that kind

49:54

of relationship. Racism

49:58

and sexism were and

50:00

are not unusual. While

50:03

researching the case for a BBC

50:06

podcast, journalist Audrey Gillian

50:08

uncovered police reports that

50:10

suggested bias was present

50:12

within the investigation. The

50:15

victims were described as being promiscuous

50:18

and fond of a good time.

50:21

Gillian said, I

50:24

can see no empathy anywhere. There

50:26

is however the sense that their behaviours

50:28

may very well have led to their

50:31

death. These victims are

50:33

being judged and blamed for what happened

50:35

to them even. The reports

50:37

also reveals the attitudes of the

50:40

detectives who wrote them, prejudices

50:42

that may have blinded them

50:44

in their investigations. It

50:47

is time that prejudice was exposed.

50:59

So where are we now? After

51:03

new photo fits alleged to resemble

51:06

Bible John were released in 2022,

51:08

an anonymous source

51:10

contacted a reporter for the daily

51:13

record explaining that she suspected

51:15

a man who had worked in

51:17

a lab at the Glasgow Royal

51:19

Infirmary. This individual

51:22

had a religious background, spoke

51:24

of often going to dance halls at

51:26

the weekend and his appearance

51:28

was similar to the photo fit. His

51:33

behaviour was increasingly bizarre and

51:35

worrying and he got into trouble

51:37

a few times. He died

51:40

in the mid 70s having killed

51:42

himself in the most awful of manners.

51:45

Bible John was said to have told

51:47

Helen Puttock and Jean Langford he worked

51:49

in a lab. I

51:52

am convinced he is a viable

51:54

suspect. The

51:58

following year a woman named Paul Pauline

52:00

Badger reported that she believed

52:02

Bible John was a lab

52:04

technician posted at RAF Halton

52:06

in Buckinghamshire. Pauline

52:09

told author Francisco Garcia that

52:11

she suspected the man was

52:13

responsible for the unsolved murder

52:15

of 19-year-old Rita Ellis who

52:17

was training at the base.

52:21

Rita had been found beaten, raped and

52:23

strangled with her own underwear on November

52:25

12, 1967. The

52:30

previous day she had been due to

52:32

babysit for a senior officer and

52:35

while waiting to be collected it is

52:37

reported that she got into a vehicle

52:39

belonging to the killer. There

52:43

were others who suspected that the

52:45

man responsible for the string of

52:47

murders in the late 1960s was

52:49

someone in a position of power.

52:52

In a book by former police officer

52:54

Paul Harrison released in 2012 called Dancing

52:56

with the Devil.

53:00

The author described suspicions that Bible

53:02

John was a member of the

53:04

police force. Speaking

53:07

about the evidence provided by Helen

53:09

Puttock's sister G, Harrison

53:11

wrote, she was adamant

53:13

that she saw him show a warrant card

53:15

to her sister before they left the dance

53:18

hall. Beatty showed her

53:20

his own warrant card and Gene said

53:22

it was identical to the one Bible

53:24

John had shown her sister. The

53:28

man who was with Gene that

53:30

night known only as Castle Milk

53:32

John also told her he suspected

53:34

Helen's bow was an undercover cop.

53:38

Perhaps that is why he didn't get

53:40

into their taxi and why he's never

53:42

come forward. In

53:47

BBC interviews with Jim McEwen and

53:50

Brian Hughes, the detectives who

53:52

had reinvestigated the case in 1995. It

53:56

was revealed that a business card from

53:58

the furniture store wedged Ervin

54:00

McInnis worked was found at the

54:02

scene of Helen Patek's murder. McInnis

54:06

was interviewed a few days later but

54:09

McEwen and Hughes explained that there was

54:11

no record of him being put on

54:14

an identity parade in front of Helen's

54:16

sister Jean. Retired

54:18

DCI Jim McEwen told reporter

54:21

Audrey Gillian, he

54:23

doesn't appear anywhere in the initial

54:25

statements. It was us that

54:27

uncovered him. John Ervin

54:29

McInnis does not appear in the 1969 inquiry

54:31

anywhere. McEwen

54:36

disclosed that when he showed a photograph

54:38

of McInnis to the bouncer from the

54:40

Barrowland Ballroom, who saw Helen Jean and

54:43

the two Johns that night, he

54:45

recognized him. McInnis

54:48

was also identified by the taxi driver

54:50

who dropped Helen off when he was

54:52

shown a photo lineup in 1995. It

54:57

was suggested that McInnis's possible

54:59

involvement was covered up as

55:02

his cousin Jim McInnis was a

55:04

detective working on the case. Speaking

55:10

with the daily record in 2023,

55:14

Jemima McDonald-san Allen revealed that

55:16

the case was being re-examined

55:18

by Police Scotland under the

55:21

code name Operation Banyan. Allen

55:24

said, when the police officer

55:26

phoned and said they were going to

55:28

re-investigate, that was a bit of a

55:31

bombshell. I never imagined that they

55:33

would re-look at it all. I'm

55:35

not expecting that much, to be honest.

55:38

They might openly admit these murders

55:40

were not investigated properly in the

55:42

first place and we might get

55:44

an apology over the way they

55:46

were investigated. If they

55:49

didn't investigate it properly then

55:51

that impacted on so many

55:53

people so badly. Alex

55:56

Docker, Patricia's son, added an

55:59

apology. you would of course be

56:01

appreciated, but to be

56:03

meaningful it needs detail on exactly what

56:06

the apology is for and what the

56:08

consequences are. To me

56:10

it would mean that the Bible John Leed

56:12

is at the very least suspect, and

56:15

opens the real story of

56:18

poor judgement, misdirection and a

56:20

failed investigation. Let's

56:22

not forget the Yorkshire Ripper case floundered

56:25

on an assumption and lives

56:27

were lost as a result, so there

56:29

are lessons to be learned. I

56:32

thank the police for making this effort and

56:35

look forward to the conclusions. Operation

56:42

Banyan was set up to examine

56:44

how the original investigations into the

56:47

murders of Patricia Docher, Jemima MacDonald

56:49

and Helen Puttick were handled, and

56:52

the actions of the officers involved.

56:56

As of March 2024, there

57:00

has been no update from the

57:02

Major Crimes Unit which is carrying

57:04

out the investigation. Thank

57:18

you for listening, and special thanks

57:20

to our Patrons for their support.

57:24

For more information on this episode, please

57:27

see the show notes or visit our

57:29

website, theywalkamonguspodcast.com.

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