0:13

Hello, and welcome

0:13

to the Thin End of the Wedge.

0:16

The podcast where experts from

0:16

around the world share new and

0:19

interesting stories about life

0:19

in the ancient Middle East. My

0:23

name is Jon. Each episode, I

0:23

talk to friends and colleagues,

0:27

and get them to explain their

0:27

work in a way we can all

0:30

understand. Recent years have seen a

0:32

resurgence in the number of

0:35

foreign archaeological teams

0:35

working in Iraq, initially in

0:39

the Kurdish region, then

0:39

increasingly in the south.

0:43

Today's guest talks about work

0:43

being carried out somewhere in

0:46

between, in the northern city of

0:46

Mosul. Within the city limits

0:52

lies one of the most important

0:52

archaeological sites in the

0:55

the greatest Assyrian

0:55

capital, Nineveh. Mosul, of

1:01

course, suffered during the

1:01

occupation by ISIS, as well as

1:05

during its liberation, which saw

1:05

hard fighting.

1:11

Our guest has many years of

1:11

experience working in the Middle

1:14

East, including in some very

1:14

challenging environments.

1:18

Nineveh is perhaps the toughest

1:18

challenge yet. What has happened

1:23

to the site in recent years? And

1:23

what work is being done now? In

1:29

this episode, we explore some

1:29

crucial questions. What does

1:34

archaeology mean in this kind of

1:34

environment? What form does it

1:38

take? And why is archaeology

1:38

done? In whose interest is it?

1:46

So get yourself a cup of tea.

1:46

Make yourself comfortable. And

1:49

let's meet today's guest. Hello, and welcome to Thin End

2:00

of the Wedge. Thank you for

2:03

joining us.

2:04

Thank you, Jon. My pleasure.

2:07

Can you tell us

2:07

please: who are you and what do

2:10

you do?

2:11

Well, my name

2:11

is Nicolo Marchetti. I am

2:14

teaching Near Eastern

2:14

archaeology at the University of

2:16

Bologna in Italy. And I am the

2:16

director of a joint

2:20

Iraqi-Italian expedition at

2:20

Nineveh in Mosul.

2:24

Could you start by

2:24

explaining where Nineveh is and

2:27

what's there please?

2:29

Well, Nineveh

2:29

is an impressive mound.

2:32

Actually, the mound in itself is

2:32

larger as a large site

2:36

elsewhere, it's like 60

2:36

hectares. Nineveh is an

2:39

impressive mount near the Tigris

2:39

River in the north of Iraq,

2:43

precisely within now the city of

2:43

Mosul. It's surrounded by the

2:48

city on all its sides. Before it

2:48

didn't used to be like this.

2:52

Mosul was in the 19th century,

2:52

only present on the western bank

2:57

of the river. But then it

2:57

expanded at the beginning of the

3:00

20th in the eastern as well, and

3:00

now has surrounded and

3:04

encroached the ancient site.

3:04

Nineveh has historically been

3:08

one of the main sites of

3:08

Assyria, and for several

3:11

branches of its long history,

3:11

also the capital city. Its

3:15

occupation dates back to

3:15

prehistoric times. There is an

3:18

impressive sequence excavated by

3:18

Max Mallowan in the early

3:23

[19]30s, when he was part of a

3:23

British Museum expedition,

3:26

looking at the site under

3:26

Reginald Campbell Thompson.

3:31

What has happened at

3:31

Nineveh in recent times?

3:35

Well, there's

3:35

been a slow decline for the

3:37

pristine archaeological site,

3:37

which used to be a couple of

3:41

centuries ago. It has been

3:41

slowly encroached starting from

3:44

the historical presence of a

3:44

shrine, a very important shrine,

3:49

dedicated to the prophet Jonah.

3:49

In the biblical text Jonah

3:52

preached in Nineveh, saving the

3:52

inhabitants from the wrath of

3:57

the Lord. In Islamic tradition,

3:57

he's buried at Nineveh himself.

4:01

His shrine was much venerated.

4:01

So in Ottoman times there has

4:05

always been a village around

4:05

this mosque which lies on one of

4:09

the two main mounds of the site,

4:09

Tell Nebi Yunus; Nebi Yunus

4:13

means prophet Jonah in Arabic.

4:13

Starting from this original

4:17

settlement, the central part of

4:17

Nineveh has been fully

4:21

encroached by modern settlement

4:21

by let's say the late 50s, early

4:25

60s. And so since then, one

4:25

third of ancient site has been

4:30

lost almost to archaeological

4:30

investigation.

4:33

We managed to open excavation

4:33

area there last year. And the

4:37

rest, so the northern part, is

4:37

the most important one is the

4:41

one which lies north of a stream

4:41

which crosses East-West the

4:46

ancient site, and is called

4:46

Kujunjik. And the mound in

4:50

Kujunujik is called Tell

4:50

Kujunjik, which is a Turkish

4:53

word for a "small goat". The

4:53

southern tip has been until

4:58

recently been void of

4:58

settlement. In 2016 Daesh opened

5:04

there ... probably 2015, already

5:04

... they opened there a four

5:08

lane highway just crossing the

5:08

site east-west. The damage was

5:13

quite extensive to the city

5:13

walls, to the inner city. The

5:17

south of this highway, the site

5:17

is still empty, more or less

5:21

empty, but the encroachment is

5:21

ongoing. This is a big problem

5:26

of course, because Nineveh is

5:26

surrounded on three sides by a

5:30

sprawling city. And the more

5:30

since the old city has been

5:34

inaccessible after the war. When

5:34

Mosul was liberated in June 2017

5:41

the old city was completely in

5:41

ruins. There are several

5:45

problems in clearing the debris

5:45

from the old city. The main one,

5:49

probably, is that there are

5:49

still many unexplored devices.

5:53

So removing this debris is a

5:53

highly specialised operation.

5:57

And there have been many

5:57

problems for this. So people are

6:00

waiting, and they are losing

6:00

their hopes that this can be

6:03

done in a reasonable amount of

6:03

time. So they are settling

6:09

wherever they can. So the

6:09

encroachment, the pressure on

6:12

the site, has been increasing in

6:12

these last two years. The

6:16

situation presently is extremely

6:16

difficult, because on the one

6:20

side, you understand the needs

6:20

of the people. On the other, you

6:23

have to take care of heritage.

6:23

This is so important in the

6:27

first place for their future,

6:27

for their identity. But you need

6:30

to communicate all this. It's

6:30

quite a complex operation to

6:35

balance the needs of heritage

6:35

with the needs of the people. We

6:38

are trying our best with our

6:38

partner at the site, which is

6:42

the State Board of Antiquities

6:42

and Heritage in the Mosul

6:44

branch. Of course, it's a

6:44

national organisation based in

6:47

Baghdad, under the leadership of

6:47

Dr. Laith Hussein.

6:51

What work are you

6:51

doing at Nineveh now?

6:53

I can describe

6:53

what we do in a two-fold way.

6:55

What kind of archaeology are you

6:55

doing at Nineveh? Is it survey,

6:58

One, of course, is the purely

6:58

archaeological one, and it is

7:01

extremely interesting.

7:01

Scientifically, we are getting

7:05

so much more new data. At the

7:05

same time, the main reason, I

7:09

would say, why we are there, is

7:09

to protect, to preserve. To

7:14

preserve for investigation is

7:14

quite a contradictory statement.

7:18

But conservation must be done at

7:18

the same time, that you do

7:23

research. So by digging, you

7:23

understand better, you conserve

7:28

it better, because the reality

7:28

is that conservation is not just

7:31

a mechanical operation. It is a

7:31

scientific operation, involving

7:33

understanding the monument, studying the monument in order to be effective in your

7:35

conservation activities. And of

7:38

course, at the same time I

7:38

already hinted this, we are

7:41

really there to raise awareness.

7:41

We want the city to become

7:44

aware. Several archaeological

7:44

features, for example, lying

7:47

outside of the city were

7:47

completely not known to the city

7:52

council, to the Governorate, I

7:52

mean to the institutions

7:56

operating on the field. Of

7:56

course, the State Board does

7:59

know all this, but they're not

7:59

enough. If people ask permission

8:04

to make a building, then State

8:04

Board can inspect it. But if

8:07

they don't ask permission, and

8:07

they just start digging, when

8:11

you get news of this, if you get

8:11

news of this, often it's too

8:15

late. We need to tell the other

8:15

authorities what's going on and

8:19

let them understand and enlist

8:19

them. I'm not just saying

8:23

partnering, but in sharing a

8:23

vision for the city. Taking into

8:28

account integrating the

8:28

heritage.

8:29

The heritage, I would say, in

8:29

Iraq is almost universally

8:33

perceived as the cement of

8:33

national identity. They're very

8:37

proud of their past. At the same

8:37

time, in places like Mosul,

8:41

however, the heritage is

8:41

perceived sometimes as an

8:44

obstacle, as a problem, as a

8:44

feature blocking development,

8:48

causing economic harm. This, of

8:48

course, is the most dangerous

8:52

perception, that we need to

8:52

avoid; we need to eradicate it.

8:55

And you can only do this through

8:55

dialogue, through letting people

8:59

seeing positive examples.

8:59

Interacting with a city of 1

9:04

million plus people, sprawling

9:04

in this so difficult situation

9:08

is tough. I mean, we are

9:08

enthusiastic about this. I mean,

9:11

we have enthusiasm. Of course

9:11

what we see makes us very sad at

9:15

times. But also we see many signs for

9:16

hope. The real thing: you have

9:20

to be there; you have to stay in

9:20

place. We completed two seasons

9:23

there until now. We are planning

9:23

a longer season in 2021 as well.

9:28

We are just back; we came back

9:28

10 days ago. So even in this

9:32

most difficult year, we were

9:32

able ... I'm very grateful to my

9:34

university to the Minister of

9:34

Foreign Affairs of Italy,

9:37

because they allowed us to go.

9:37

This is a feat in itself. I

9:40

mean, they gave us a great

9:40

extension of trust. And we were

9:44

all back without any health

9:44

problem, which is very

9:49

important, because we have

9:49

students, postgraduates, and of

9:52

course the workers. We protected

9:52

the workers every morning with

9:55

masks. We took temperature to

9:55

all every day. So we just gave

10:00

paper glasses to everybody, we

10:00

abolished the communal meals,

10:05

drinking areas and whatever. So

10:05

we were careful. And maybe we

10:09

were also lucky. But consider we

10:09

had more than 100 workers for

10:13

almost two months this year. We

10:13

were planning a longer season,

10:16

but this is what we could

10:16

achieve. So we are satisfied, we

10:20

couldn't do probably more. And

10:20

everything went very well. So

10:23

this, I think, is an

10:23

encouragement for everybody. It

10:27

is possible indeed to do work

10:27

abroad in Iraq, at Mosul, in a

10:31

safe way. So I encourage all my

10:31

colleagues to come and join if

10:36

they are having projects. There

10:36

are many projects in Mosul

10:39

running for many reasons.

10:39

They're probably, I would say,

10:42

lagging behind their own

10:42

schedule, sometimes severely. So

10:47

I hope these words of

10:47

encouragement will convince them

10:49

to come back and go on, because

10:49

Mosul , I think, needs every

10:53

hand, every possible help. It's a good question, because we

10:58

are experimenting many ways to

10:59

excavation, conservation?

11:07

do archaeology at Nineveh. Let's

11:07

start from the beginning. It's

11:10

an integrated project. So we are

11:10

having an intensive survey of

11:14

all the area under our

11:14

responsibility. We are working

11:19

in eastern Nineveh. Our permit

11:19

is 700 hectares. So it's an

11:23

enormous surface. And we

11:23

completed in two years an

11:25

intensive survey of all this

11:25

area. Plus, of course, you have,

11:30

you would say "traditional

11:30

excavation". So we open large

11:33

areas, extensive areas, in the

11:33

Lower Town of Nineveh. And now I

11:38

would say, we really have an

11:38

understanding, we are beginning

11:41

to have an understanding, of how

11:41

an imperial capital was

11:43

organised. We are digging in

11:43

houses with flimsy walls, but an

11:48

impressive amount of fines from

11:48

ivory comes to pyxides to

11:52

incantation texts and amulets,

11:52

tokens. It's amazing what you

11:56

find in these houses. And then

11:56

you have elite residences,

12:00

enormous buildings with large

12:00

courtyards paved with baked

12:04

bricks, and large alabaster door

12:04

sills. Where you find, for

12:07

example, tablets written in

12:07

Babylonian dialect belonging to

12:10

merchants, dated to the last

12:10

years of King Sin-sharra-ishkun.

12:15

So just a few years before the

12:15

destruction of 612 [BC].

12:19

We're digging in a palace near

12:19

the Adad Gate. We have this

12:22

public building, with large

12:22

courtyards and rooms with rails

12:27

for mobile fireplaces. So we are

12:27

going through a diversity of

12:32

buildings giving us an idea, a

12:32

very precise idea, of how this

12:36

capital was organised. Plus, we

12:36

did extensive geophysics with

12:40

geomagnetic survey, and we

12:40

observed these buildings

12:43

separated by roads and open

12:43

spaces. Actually, our impression

12:48

from the survey ... I think,

12:48

it's more than an impression ...

12:50

we became convinced that Nineveh

12:50

is completely built up. In late

12:55

1980s, an American expedition

12:55

was operating this spot in the

13:00

Lower Town. But they tended to

13:00

think that there were large

13:04

voids within the urban fabric.

13:04

But this is not the case. In our

13:08

opinion, Nineveh was densely

13:08

built up almost everywhere.

13:12

Wherever we go, we observe

13:12

traces of buildings. And this is

13:15

important, because I think if we

13:15

go on like this in a few years,

13:18

we will get a very precise idea

13:18

of how an imperial capital was

13:22

organised. At the same time, we are also

13:23

going down somehow, because ISIS

13:28

or Daesh as it's called locally,

13:28

they dug enormous trenches, 11

13:34

of them, but enormous, through

13:34

the town. On one of these

13:38

trenches, we decided that most

13:38

of them are ... you see virgin

13:42

soil just above the top layer in

13:42

the sections of these trenches,

13:46

but not one, which was located

13:46

in the Lower Town

13:50

pre-Sennacherib. So before king

13:50

Sennacherib changes city into

13:55

his enormous new royal capital

13:55

around 700 BC, before when

14:00

Nineveh was an historical city

14:00

of Assyria, it had a mound, the

14:04

Acropolis, and the Lower Town.

14:04

This Lower Town pre-Sennacherib

14:08

is what we are investigating

14:08

now. Because of the cut by ISIS,

14:13

we have on the surface next to a

14:13

trench, the layer destroyed in

14:17

612 [BC]. But then you have the

14:17

section with three layers below

14:22

the top one, and then you have

14:22

the bottom of the trench. So we

14:25

started from the bottom of the

14:25

trench. The first layer is early

14:29

tenth century BC and we are

14:29

going down with Sara Pizzimenti

14:34

from Pisa University. We have an

14:34

operation where we aim at

14:38

reaching virgin soil and

14:38

understanding the dynamics

14:40

leading to the occupation of a

14:40

Lower Town at Nineveh. Of course

14:43

we don't know when this happened

14:43

precisely. It may have happened

14:46

around 2000 BC. We will see.

14:46

This is a large operation, it's

14:50

slow, it takes time; the

14:50

archaeology has its own rules.

14:54

So this as far as archaeology is

14:54

concerned, but as far as

14:57

conservation is concerned, well,

14:57

we aim at repairing the damages

15:01

of Daesh in the first place.

15:01

Most of our excavation areas are

15:05

located next to these enormous

15:05

trenches of Daesh, because we

15:08

want to try to get a glimpse of

15:08

the stratigraphy that was lost

15:12

and tried to gain information

15:12

with extensive excavation.

15:18

Repairing every kind of damages

15:18

is more complicated. We started

15:21

this year to clear the city

15:21

walls. The city walls were in

15:23

part originally reconstructed

15:23

since the mid 60s, so before

15:27

Saddam. It was an operation

15:27

which was meant also to keep

15:31

Mosul from expanding into the

15:31

site. So we cannot just say with

15:36

the modern sensitivity, it was a

15:36

wrong operation. It was done

15:39

with a variety of aims. In any

15:39

case, they were part of the

15:43

cityscape of Mosul. And the

15:43

Daesh went with bulldozer on top

15:46

of these stone walls with

15:46

crenellations on top, and they

15:49

just destroyed them. So now we started clearing the

15:51

debris, exposing the lower part

15:54

of these massive city walls. And

15:54

especially we decided with some

16:00

bravery to work since last year,

16:00

since our first season, in the

16:04

area of what is called the Adad

16:04

Gate, which was one of the two

16:07

main gates of the north side of

16:07

the Nineveh city walls. The Adad

16:11

Gate was excavated in the late

16:11

60s by an Iraqi archaeologist

16:15

Amr Suleiman. And he uncovered

16:15

there an amazing monument, a 10

16:21

meter high standing Assyrian

16:21

gate in mud brick with the arch

16:25

still perfectly preserved. He

16:25

decided not to pierce it. And in

16:30

order to protect it, the Iraqis

16:30

they made an enormous concrete

16:34

roof above it. Plus, they made

16:34

gigantic modern mud brick towers

16:40

on top of the early foundations.

16:40

This enormous monument was

16:44

bulldozed by Daesh. It was

16:44

visible from everywhere in

16:48

Mosul, because it's one of the

16:48

highest spots of Nineveh; as

16:52

high as the Acropolis, as Kuyunjik. So this landscape site was

16:54

completely bulldozed. And you

17:00

could see from everywhere these

17:00

enormous slabs of concrete

17:04

fallen above the gate. So we

17:04

decided to remove them. We hired

17:10

last year a crane ... 100 times

17:10

crane, which was extremely

17:14

expensive. But that's not the

17:14

point. We did something that we

17:17

were not trained to do. We

17:17

relied on the skills of the

17:22

crane operator, on the bravery

17:22

of the workers and

17:25

archaeologists in cutting these

17:25

slabs, and trying to think how

17:29

not to have any inure [injury]

17:29

from this work, because you had

17:33

to remove slabs from 60, 70 tons

17:33

up to 80 tons single slab. And

17:39

then you have to cut through all

17:39

the iron. We are going to make a

17:42

book about this, because it has

17:42

been a great adventure. It was

17:45

really something we would have

17:45

never dreamt or having a

17:49

nightmare of doing something

17:49

like this. But we had to do it.

17:53

And again, we were successful.

17:53

We removed an enormous amount of

17:57

fallen concrete, of fallen

17:57

modern mud bricks. And finally,

18:01

we began exploring the gate. And

18:01

as happens in archaeology, we

18:05

uncovered an enormous amount of

18:05

new information. Because of

18:09

course previously in

18:09

excavations, they didn't explore

18:12

all the corners of the gate. We

18:12

could recover 13 new monumental

18:16

inscriptions by Sennacherib,

18:16

which were never seen before. So

18:21

at the same time, this

18:21

conservation was accompanied by

18:25

a very happy period of

18:25

archaeological investigation,

18:27

which gave us so much new

18:27

perspectives on how Sennacherib

18:31

built and why and how he

18:31

organised his fortifications,

18:34

especially one of the key areas

18:34

which is a gate. Now we built a

18:40

roof again, in metal, we already

18:40

did half of the gate. And we

18:44

covered ... the rest we

18:44

protected this year; we will

18:46

finish next year. But already now from, for

18:49

example, what is called the

18:51

shari' raisiyah, the

18:51

presidential road north of the

18:54

city, which is one of the main

18:54

axes of Mosul. Now you finally

18:57

see back the city gate and the

18:57

roof. And this of course, the

19:02

people from Mosul, they love it;

19:02

they are very proud of this.

19:05

This also gave us a lot of boost

19:05

to our morale in going on with

19:10

this approach. So as you see, we

19:10

are of course doing our job,

19:14

which is archaeological

19:14

excavation, but at the same time

19:16

we have conservation. We are

19:16

striving to open an

19:20

archaeological park at the site.

19:20

We promised in 2022. I hope we

19:24

haven't been overly optimistic,

19:24

but I think it can be done.

19:28

Already what we can show on the

19:28

ground is extremely self evident

19:32

and we are planning paths,

19:32

approaches. And this is what it

19:36

needs to be done, in my opinion.

19:36

People need to know that there

19:40

is a plan for development, for

19:40

developing heritage for the

19:44

city, with the city. So agreeing

19:44

strategy, of course, we have

19:48

State Board in the first place,

19:48

but also have the other civil

19:51

authorities having a stake in

19:51

all this. So this is how we work

19:56

in an integrated way both

19:56

scientifically but at the same

20:00

time also, socially. I strongly

20:00

believe in community

20:03

archaeology. We all think this

20:03

is the only way we can succeed

20:07

in a situation like Mosul. So

20:07

together with the people of the

20:11

city. We are starting to make

20:11

friends. I mean, after two

20:14

years, we really have relations

20:14

now. And this is so important,

20:19

because so many things we

20:19

couldn't understand before. Now

20:21

we are explaining their point of

20:21

view, and we just incorporate

20:25

it. We are not here to judge

20:25

anything; we are here to

20:28

understand and try to help, but

20:28

it has been done together.

20:32

Maybe we could talk

20:32

a little more about that. You

20:35

mentioned this is a collaboration with the Iraqi State Board, Whose idea was it

20:37

to work at Nineveh in the first

20:41

place? And how are the goals

20:41

set?

20:44

Well, the

20:44

first thing came from the former

20:47

Chairman of Antiquities, Qais

20:47

Rashid. We were working in South

20:50

Iraq for a survey, because we

20:50

also run a project in Turkey, at

20:54

Carchemish on the Euphrates,

20:54

which is a long term project we

20:56

are having and will have. We

20:56

were having a survey in the

21:00

south starting in 2016, which

21:00

lasted three years plus some

21:04

study season afterwards. So

21:04

since 2018, and beyond with the

21:08

study season. The Chairman of

21:08

the State Board highlighted the

21:12

dramatic situation in which

21:12

Mosul was and asked us to help.

21:16

We were not planning at the time

21:16

to have a dig in Iraq, but we

21:19

just felt we couldn't turn him

21:19

down, couldn't say no.

21:23

We first visited in Mosul in

21:23

April 2018. And were struck by

21:27

the situation which was already

21:27

clear was going in the bad

21:30

direction for the site, so to

21:30

say. And we could have the first

21:36

season in September 2019 for two

21:36

months and a half. And we came

21:41

back this autumn because we were

21:41

planning to come back in the

21:43

spring this year. But of course,

21:43

because of the pandemic, we had

21:47

to change and adapt our plans.

21:47

We found a lot of support in

21:52

State Board at every single

21:52

step. The chief of the Mosul

21:56

branch, Ali Hazeem Thanoon, and

21:56

his team ... well, they've been

21:59

invaluable. The inspectors we

21:59

had ... well, they became

22:02

friends. They're not just

22:02

colleagues. They shared with us

22:06

concerns, toils, satisfactions,

22:06

of course, so Alaa, Hisham,

22:11

Raad, Omar, Muhammad, Ali, they

22:11

are our friends. With them, yes,

22:19

we could succeed through so many

22:19

situations we would have never,

22:23

never, never solved alone. So I'm very grateful for this

22:24

reception we have in Mosul. And

22:28

of course in Baghdad, the whole

22:28

half of the State Board starting

22:31

from the Chairman, Laith

22:31

Hussein, to the Director of

22:33

Excavations, Selim Halaf, they

22:33

are really ... and Mohammed

22:37

Sabri and all the friends we

22:37

have there. They are really

22:41

concerned about Mosul, so they

22:41

support us. Plus we have very

22:44

positive interactions with the

22:44

University of Mosul. We are not

22:49

yet collaborating on the field

22:49

with them. But we are having a

22:52

lot of scientific exchange with

22:52

Khalid Salim, Ahmed Jumaili and

22:56

so on, the Dean, Dr Yasmin, we

22:56

are having excellent, excellent

23:00

relations. The President of the

23:00

University of Mosul, Dr. Qusay

23:04

is very interested, very keen on

23:04

archaeology. So we are running

23:08

projects together for training.

23:08

Mosul University was the last to

23:14

dig on Tell Kuyunjik in 2013.

23:14

ISIS took over Mosul in June

23:19

2014. Until the year before

23:19

Mosul University was digging in

23:24

the area of the North Palace. So

23:24

now we are helping them in

23:29

publishing their finds, which

23:29

are amazing. I mean, they did an

23:33

extraordinary job. So we are really, as I say,

23:34

trying to integrate whatever we

23:38

do with the cities or the

23:38

scientific institutions like the

23:40

University on one side for some

23:40

of our activities on the field

23:44

with the State Board. But as I

23:44

say, we are talking a lot with

23:48

the City Council, with the

23:48

kaimakam, with the Governorate.

23:52

You have to take care of all

23:52

these levels if you want to have

23:56

a plan which succeeds. I mean,

23:56

we must need one single vision.

24:00

Otherwise, I don't see how we

24:00

can go through a situation in

24:04

the way that international

24:04

institutions do their share,

24:08

because this is not a critique,

24:08

but not enough for sure, in my

24:12

opinion, has been done by

24:12

international institutions in

24:16

Mosul. Of course, there are some

24:16

activities. But if you look at

24:20

the scale of the problems, they

24:20

are way, way, way, far from a

24:25

satisfactory level of

24:25

engagement. And this I don't

24:28

think it's acceptable. In this

24:28

situation Mosul really needs the

24:31

help of everybody. I mean, this

24:31

is a call for everybody willing

24:35

to do something for Mosul. There

24:35

is certainly space and scope for

24:39

every serious institution interested. We were very happy this year,

24:41

that the University of Toronto

24:44

for Tim Harrison, they joined us

24:44

on the field; they took care,

24:47

for example, of the new fencing

24:47

and protection of the Shamash

24:50

gate, or eastern gate, whatever

24:50

you call it, on the Erbil road

24:54

on the middle of the eastern

24:54

fortifications of Nineveh, which

24:58

is an impressive monument.

24:58

Almost unexcavated, and with Tim

25:03

Harrison we even explored the

25:03

tunnels dug, not for looting in

25:07

this specific case, but for you

25:07

would say military purposes or

25:12

whatever. Tunnels through the

25:12

Shamash Gate. We could observe a

25:16

lot of new archaeological

25:16

evidence within these tunnels.

25:19

But that's not the point. I mean

25:19

the University of Toronto came

25:21

to see what can be done. It's

25:21

not about just digging, the

25:25

point is much beyond this.

25:29

They need help on everything

25:29

from training, from equipment,

25:32

from drafting master plans

25:32

together. This is an example. I

25:36

mean, I'm very happy they

25:36

responded to our call. I cannot

25:39

stress enough that Mosul needs

25:39

every possible help from anybody

25:45

in the present future. Of

25:45

course, it should be serious

25:47

institution, institutionally

25:47

backed in a long term way. There

25:53

is no room for improvisation in

25:53

this difficult situation,

25:56

because any failure would be

25:56

dearly accounted for in a

26:00

situation where you have this

26:00

pressure on your shoulders, and

26:03

on the shoulders of heritage

26:03

especially. But for institution

26:07

seriously intention to

26:07

cooperate, there is a lot of

26:09

room in Nineveh. And of course,

26:09

there are other sites around

26:13

which are endangered. For

26:13

example, Hatra; they're telling

26:16

me that there are very serious

26:16

static problems to the monument;

26:20

needs conservation, needs

26:20

research. There are many other

26:23

sites which are endangered, not

26:23

at the same scale of Nineveh.

26:26

This is clear.

26:28

You've already started to answer this question, but could you summarise for us

26:30

why you think it's so important

26:34

to do this work, at this site,

26:34

right now?

26:38

Hmm. Well, I

26:38

suppose that we are all sons of

26:42

our time. The Near Eastern

26:42

archaeologists of my

26:45

generations, we happen to live

26:45

under these very difficult,

26:50

unstable times. And

26:50

post-modernity, not just Iraq,

26:55

everywhere, leads you to face

26:55

new challenges that you didn't

26:59

expect when you were a student.

26:59

You were imagining a different

27:03

kind of field archaeology.

27:03

Nowadays, we have to cope with

27:07

wars, economic

27:07

crisis, not in this specific

27:12

case, but in other cases,

27:12

competition for resources or

27:15

population puts a pressure on

27:15

the weak subjects and nobody's

27:19

weaker when heritage. Heritage

27:19

has no legs to run away, has no

27:23

voice to speak for itself. So

27:23

you have to protect it and speak

27:27

on its behalf. So we are trying

27:27

to save Nineveh. We didn't want

27:31

to belong to a generation who

27:31

lost Nineveh.

27:33

So together with Iraqi

27:33

colleagues, we are trying to

27:37

find a way to preserve and pass

27:37

to the next generations, this

27:40

heritage. There is a of course a

27:40

semantic difference in studies

27:45

about cultural property. This is

27:45

very clear. If you term it

27:48

heritage, it needs to be passed

27:48

over, because that's the meaning

27:52

of heritage. If you brand it as

27:52

a resource, cultural resource,

27:56

it needs to be exploited to be a

27:56

resource. So you have competing

28:00

visions; they are not, let's say

28:00

by necessity opposing

28:04

themselves. I mean, they're not

28:04

in contrast, necessarily. We

28:07

certainly see things as heritage

28:07

and we would like to pass

28:10

heritage to the next generation.

28:10

I'm not complaining, this is the

28:14

time, the historical time we are

28:14

living through. And it's our

28:18

duty of a professional in the

28:18

same field, in Italy, in Europe,

28:22

in Iraq, everywhere. It's our

28:22

duty to face the situation and

28:26

try our best to achieve our

28:26

goals, which are goals shared by

28:30

the majority of the public. In principle, everybody agrees

28:33

that heritage should be

28:36

protected. But when there are

28:36

compromises which need to be

28:40

made, maybe more expensive, or

28:40

whatever, this willingness

28:44

disappears. There is always

28:44

something more urgent. The

28:48

economic interest of a dam

28:48

before submerging everything is

28:52

more pressing than protecting

28:52

heritage itself, there is always

28:55

an excuse. Maybe it's a good

28:55

excuse, maybe it's a good

28:58

reason. But before inflicting

28:58

permanent damage to a physical

29:03

memory of humankind, I think we

29:03

should all be more careful. I'm

29:06

also speaking about excavations.

29:06

Excavations are a destructive

29:09

process. You have to do it in a

29:09

very controlled way. And you

29:13

have to publish the results in a

29:13

full way as soon as possible.

29:16

And nowadays, open science, open

29:16

data, force you to rethink also

29:20

the way you produce

29:20

documentation and to disseminate

29:23

and share this documentation.

29:23

It's a huge problem, but we have

29:27

to face. So the answer to your question

29:28

is complex, because the problem

29:31

is complex. I hope I'm able to

29:31

pass to whoever listens to us,

29:37

this sense of urgency, but at

29:37

the same time of how serious

29:41

should be the approach to these

29:41

problems. At the same time,

29:46

these problems, they do not

29:46

stand still. The Anthropocene

29:51

has been defined as a new era as

29:51

a proposal, I think it's 2014.

29:56

The first year in which man

29:56

moved three times more sediments

30:01

than nature itself for what

30:01

year. So whatever rivers,

30:05

stream, lakes, storms moved on

30:05

the earth in one year, in 2014,

30:10

we did it three times more. And

30:10

this is accelerating. We are,

30:15

perhaps, to quote Barry McGuire,

30:15

"on the eve of destruction". And

30:19

we are staring at this

30:19

increasing pace of destruction

30:24

with an increased awareness. And

30:24

probably there is a feedback

30:27

process. So we need to develop

30:27

more effective techniques. We

30:32

are now working with artificial

30:32

intelligence for the automatic

30:34

recognition of sites. We are

30:34

trying to keep pace. It's not

30:38

easy. It's probably a battle we

30:38

are losing globally, I'm afraid.

30:42

But still, we don't give up.

30:45

I'd like to ask

30:45

about the archeological park:

30:48

what will be in it, and who will

30:48

visit it?

30:51

Perhaps it's a

30:51

dream. But you know what Thomas

30:54

Edward Lawrence used to say

30:54

about dreamers: we dream during

30:58

the day. We already opened

30:58

several archaeological parks

31:02

elsewhere in the Near East. When

31:02

I was a student at Ebla with

31:06

Paolo Matthiae, I was working to

31:06

the first experiments of the

31:10

archaeological park, which was

31:10

then opened at the site in 2002,

31:14

I think. Then when we went to

31:14

Jericho working with the

31:17

Palestinians, we started and we

31:17

opened in two years an

31:21

archaeological park there, which

31:21

is still going on now as

31:24

University Sapienza is still

31:24

there. And then finally, when I

31:28

moved to Turkey in 2003, we

31:28

managed to open in 2007, the

31:31

archaeological park at Tilmen

31:31

Hyk after we were working at

31:34

the site for five years. Then in

31:34

2010, we opened the

31:38

archaeological park of Tal

31:38

Geit, which is a small site in

31:42

a dam area, endangered by this

31:42

artificial lake. And finally,

31:47

last year, our biggest success

31:47

was opening the archaeological

31:50

park of Carchemish, which is now

31:50

open to public regularly, while

31:54

excavations are still ongoing,

31:54

of course. It was a big success,

31:57

especially because it's in a

31:57

military area. It was so tough

32:00

to go through the bureaucracy,

32:00

to get all the permissions, but

32:03

we did it together with the

32:03

Turkish Minister of Culture. So

32:06

that was a major achievement,

32:06

and it can be visited any time

32:10

of the year. It's open every day. So this is our background. For

32:13

us, it's very normal. After the

32:17

survey, we opened this landscape

32:17

museum in the south. And of

32:20

course, the idea now is to open

32:20

the archaeological park at

32:23

Nineveh, which is the greatest

32:23

challenge we have ever faced. I

32:26

mean, I've never faced this

32:26

challenge. It was difficult to

32:29

work at Jericho for many

32:29

reasons. But nothing compares to

32:33

what's going on now in Mosul for

32:33

us. What happened in the first

32:37

year, however, it was heart

32:37

lifting. I told them, "look, we

32:40

have to do all this conservation

32:40

for the tourists". And they

32:43

said, "what do you mean

32:43

tourists? There is no tourists

32:45

here". I said, "yes. But there

32:45

will be; there will be again.

32:49

There used to be. There is so

32:49

much demand to see the cradle of

32:53

civilisation as it's known in

32:53

popular media. I'm really

32:56

optimistic about this. You will

32:56

see." Of course, nobody could

32:59

see anything. It was our first

32:59

year. It was ... I think it was

33:03

maybe early November 2019. I'm

33:03

stressing this because for me,

33:07

it was an historical date. Then

33:07

one day, the police asked me,

33:12

"would you be available this

33:12

afternoon to lead some

33:14

tourists?" I said, "what do you

33:14

mean tourists?" "Yes. We heard

33:18

there are some tourists coming. Would you be available?" I said, "yes, of course I am".

33:22

So I waited along the northern

33:22

fortification, and a bus of

33:25

tourists came. And they were ...

33:25

I'm not sure whether it's

33:29

offensive in English if I say

33:29

"elderly" British tourists. They

33:33

were so enthusiastic, so

33:33

energetic. They all came down

33:35

from the bus and I said, "who

33:35

are you?" "We are tourists". I

33:39

said, "but how is it possible?

33:39

There is no touristic visa in

33:41

Iraq. There is only work visa at

33:41

present". He said, "yes. But our

33:46

travel agency always gets visa.

33:46

And we are specialised in

33:49

Afghanistan and Iraq." I said,

33:49

"Oh. That's a feat". He said,

33:53

"yes. But they said in

33:53

Afghanistan, we cannot go

33:55

anymore. Because the Americans

33:55

they got very nervous with us,

33:58

because six months ago, our bus

33:58

was shot by the Taliban on the

34:01

road. We were not injured, but

34:01

they got very angry and they

34:05

kicked us out of the country". I

34:05

said, "well, I can imagine". So

34:08

I said, "where are you staying?"

34:08

"Oh no. We are coming from

34:10

Baghdad, and we are going back.

34:10

I mean, it's six hours. Six

34:14

hours from Baghdad and going

34:14

back. I've always had the utmost

34:17

respect for the British, because

34:17

they're the toughest travellers

34:20

ever. It was really tough. So I

34:20

said, "Okay, let me lead you

34:24

around. And I showed them the

34:24

Adad Gate. And I told them,

34:27

"Look, this will be an

34:27

archaeological park. You will go

34:29

from the Adad Gate and reach

34:29

Tell Kuyunjik. And you can visit

34:34

this palace that you see here in

34:34

our excavations" and so on.

34:37

And I was so proud to show for

34:37

the first time that there was no

34:42

real look at the time for an

34:42

archarological park, but

34:44

somehow, I hope, I think they

34:44

saw it and they [be]lieved it as

34:48

it was completed somehow in

34:48

spirit. That was a good start

34:52

and this is what we are planning

34:52

to do, actually. What somehow we

34:56

think we know how to do, because

34:56

we did it before, we will do it

34:59

on a grander scale here.

34:59

Challenges are greater, but

35:03

probably satisfaction will even

35:03

be greater for all sides. So,

35:06

yes, we would like to have

35:06

meaningful monuments connecting

35:10

visitors with the ancient urban

35:10

fabric. So how the city was

35:14

organised should be apparent

35:14

from this visit. So you should

35:17

see the city walls, the city

35:17

gate, the ancient roads, the

35:20

buildings of various kinds. Then

35:20

go to a seat of power on the

35:24

Acropolis and go through the

35:24

environment which is still very

35:29

charming in spots, and also go

35:29

through the community there. The

35:33

villages there inside Kuyunjik

35:33

are illegal, the village of

35:36

Rahmaniyah, but at the same

35:36

time, people are so open, so

35:40

warm. Well, I'd like to say something.

35:41

There is a complete refusal,

35:45

complete, of ISIS ideology,

35:45

current in Mosul. They suffered

35:50

too much. The reaction is even

35:50

shockingly contrary to those

35:55

absurd values. As far as I can

35:55

say, 99% of the people are not

36:00

only against, but actively

36:00

against, that ideology. So we

36:04

never felt unsafe at any time

36:04

with local people in all

36:08

conditions, whether in the souk,

36:08

or in these villages, very poor

36:13

villages, sometimes, but people

36:13

are so warm, so hostful

36:16

[hospitable]. And this, I think

36:16

it's important for people to

36:18

know. Don't think to Mosul as a

36:18

dangerous place; it's not

36:22

dangerous. It's a complicated,

36:22

it's a mess. I cannot deny that.

36:27

But it's full of people willing

36:27

to improve their lot to build a

36:31

future for themselves, for the

36:31

city. You just need to go in the

36:35

right direction, because it's so

36:35

easy with heritage to go in the

36:38

wrong one and create lasting damage.

36:41

You've talked about

36:41

how important it is to engage

36:43

the local communities with this

36:43

work on their heritage. Have you

36:47

been able to share your results

36:47

with them, in Arabic?

36:51

Ooh, this is a

36:51

huge question, in this sense.

36:55

The language of science is--I

36:55

hope my fellow Italians or

36:59

whoever will not get

36:59

offended--is English. There is

37:02

no other language in science

37:02

than English if you want to

37:05

communicate. Unfortunately,

37:05

German is not read by most

37:08

English speaking archaeologists.

37:08

The same almost goes with

37:12

French. So for us scientific

37:12

publication is in English. And

37:17

so I'm saying the same thing for

37:17

Italian or for Arabic in

37:20

science. Then of course, there

37:20

is the other question you are

37:23

telling me and this basically is

37:23

instrumental.

37:27

Let me start from another

37:27

example. We completed--it should

37:31

be officially open by the

37:31

Minister of Culture, Hassan

37:34

Nadhem, in the next weeks--but

37:34

we completed this November, a

37:38

museum which was refurbished

37:38

through European funds for a

37:43

project called Eduu. There is a

37:43

website: eduu.unibo.it [correct

37:46

https://site.unibo.it/eduu/en]. This museum belongs to the State

37:48

Board. It's a residence, the

37:51

country residence of the second

37:51

king of Iraq, king Ghazi. It's a

37:55

beautiful place in the

37:55

governorate of Qadisiyah. Just

37:59

at the border with the

37:59

governorates of Hillah and

38:02

Najaf, so in the open

38:02

countryside. And within this

38:05

villa, we opened the landscape

38:05

Museum, so it's called the King

38:08

Ghazi Landscape Museum. The Eduu

38:08

Project, one of the main aims

38:12

was to reveal the history laying

38:12

buried in the landscape, in the

38:17

landscape of the south, in this

38:17

case on the floodplain of the

38:19

south, to the people. We wanted

38:19

to connect the pupils in

38:23

schools, inhabitants of villages

38:23

with this buried history, which

38:27

is their history. So we needed

38:27

them to look with new eyes at

38:31

their landscape. And I hope we

38:31

succeeded, at least in part. And

38:35

this museum is a physical

38:35

testimony to this approach.

38:38

So there we made a huge effort.

38:38

All the texts are in Arabic, of

38:42

course, and in English. To

38:42

explain this, but we created

38:46

comics--you can download the

38:46

comics, also from the Eduu

38:49

website. Eduu is with E, D, U, U

38:49

dot unibo (University of

38:53

Bologna) dot I, T. You can

38:53

download these comics which are

38:57

only in Arabic, about the

38:57

meaning of heritage. We just

39:00

trying hard to disseminate what

39:00

we research on in a modern way,

39:05

in a popular way, in an

39:05

accessible way for the local

39:08

communities, which are, of

39:08

course, our first stakeholders

39:11

what we have in mind when we do

39:11

his work. And we did a lot of

39:14

training in the schools. We are

39:14

now starting to do the same in

39:18

Mosul. We are trying to get some

39:18

special support for this,

39:22

because we are taking care of so

39:22

many issues. Building the roof

39:26

over the Adad Gate really

39:26

drained a substantial part of

39:29

our budget. I mean, I'm fine

39:29

with this, I'm happy, but you

39:31

must have some priorities. And

39:31

to do this work in the Mosul

39:35

community. We are just starting and we will

39:36

probably need some special

39:39

support. We are asking to some

39:39

private foundations also some

39:42

support to be effective in this

39:42

field as well, because our

39:45

research budget is okay for

39:45

research, but we need more to do

39:48

this kind of interventions. But

39:48

yes, I'm very glad you asked

39:51

about this, because that's part

39:51

of our approach. It's something

39:54

I really believe strongly in. I

39:54

don't see any future for a

39:58

project unless you are rooted In

39:58

the local community in the first

40:01

place, and the national ones as

40:01

well. We are also reading

40:06

through a report we commissioned

40:06

about how the site of Nineveh is

40:10

perceived in local social media.

40:10

Social media are so important in

40:14

Iraq. I mean, everybody's

40:14

connected through Facebook and

40:17

our social networks. And you

40:17

have groups with 1000s of

40:22

followers about antiquities,

40:22

about traditional culture,

40:26

architecture, and so on. You

40:26

really need to understand what's

40:29

going on in this forum to

40:29

understand the moods, the

40:32

expectations, the idea of the

40:32

people. You would say that now

40:36

in Mosul--while in the south, we

40:36

completed a three years

40:39

project--just now here in Mosul,

40:39

we are in the process of a need

40:43

analysis. We need to understand

40:43

better how is the situation:

40:46

what's going on? We are already

40:46

trying to be very effective on

40:50

the ground. But we are

40:50

completing our phase of studying

40:53

which are the demands of the

40:53

local community, and we will try

40:56

to meet them of course, this is

40:56

why we are there in the first

40:59

place.

41:01

Thank you very much.

41:01

You've given us a lot to think

41:04

about.

41:05

Thank you actually, because I'm very happy we had the conversation.

41:09

Id also like to

41:09

thank our patrons Tyler Russell,

41:12

Enrique Jimenez, Haider

41:12

al-Rekabi, Jana Matuszak, Nancy

41:17

Highcock, Jay C, Rune

41:17

Rattenborg, Woodthrush, Elisa

41:22

Rossberger, and Mark Weeden. I

41:22

really appreciate your support,

41:27

it makes a big difference. And

41:27

thank you for listening to Thin

41:31

End of the Wedge. If you enjoy

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41:39

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41:41

Even a couple of pounds a month helps keep the podcast going and

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