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co dot u k. Hello. My

1:00

very first job was in a small branch

1:02

library just off Flotland Road

1:04

in Liverpool. The pace slip described

1:07

me as an assistant trainee librarian,

1:10

which meant that I spent most of my time reshaping

1:13

fiction books alphabetically and

1:15

non action according to the Jewish classification

1:18

system. The boredom of these

1:20

tasks was only relieved of lunchtime

1:22

when I'd regularly cross the road to the walker

1:24

pub and joined a noisy crowd

1:26

of doctors for a pint of mix. Although

1:29

no women were allowed in the bar, there

1:31

were always women in the pub bunched

1:33

together in a tiny adjacent room called

1:35

the snug where they were sheltered

1:37

from male view by panes

1:40

of frosted glass. I

1:42

remembered that apart either later year

1:44

when because of my relationship with one of the protagonists,

1:47

I was a close observer the nineteen

1:49

eighties legal battle by women against

1:52

Elvino's a fleet street bar

1:54

women until they finally won their

1:56

case in the Court of Appeal, were banished

1:58

to a backroom away from

1:59

the bar. Both these recollections

2:02

were aroused by recent article in

2:04

Sociology Compass, which

2:06

considers the presence of gender inadequate

2:09

in alcohol consumption in a rather

2:11

different context. In what

2:13

is known as the Kraft drinks

2:16

sector of the industry, that

2:18

article is by Thomas Thenelle Reed, who's

2:20

senior lecturer in sociology at Lafferty

2:22

University. He now joins me. Tom

2:24

Croft drinks the amount questions of craft

2:27

drinks produced by microbrewers. I

2:29

mean, there's been quite a prominent feature in the

2:31

food and drinks sector in many countries in recent

2:34

years, but let me up asking you, I mean,

2:36

what exactly are Kraft drinks? I mean,

2:38

what constitutes a Kraft drink? For

2:40

most consumers, and I think the general public,

2:42

what people recognize as Kraft is something

2:44

that's focused on quality, perhaps produced

2:47

by a smaller independent producer

2:49

brewery or distillery. And then

2:51

within that also, I think what's interesting is people

2:54

seem to desire a a shortened

2:56

supply chain. So it should be the sort of place

2:58

where you can actually see the person

3:00

who's made the drink. And of course, this is held

3:02

in contrast to mass produced scale

3:04

industrial production where you don't

3:06

really have that close connection between producer

3:09

and consumer. I think for a long time,

3:11

the craft sector was able to position

3:13

itself in in opposition to the

3:16

mainstream dominant scale corporate

3:18

drinks industry. And because of that, it came

3:20

with this assumption that they were doing things better,

3:22

and almost by definition, they were liberal and

3:25

progressive and inclusive. A number of studies

3:27

have revealed craft in cultures. And that craft

3:29

beer in particular is very

3:31

heavily gendered and and potentially

3:34

exclusionary. You you know what way

3:36

is research that's really being building

3:38

up over recent years. In a number

3:40

of countries in the U. S. the U. K.

3:42

Denmark, in New Zealand

3:44

as well. And all of it sort of seems to

3:47

paint this picture where actually there are

3:49

boundaries for inclusion and men and women

3:51

are treated separately within the craft beer

3:53

sector. Touch a little bit more about this

3:55

image of the craft beer industry. I mean,

3:57

this rugged manliness, I think you

3:59

mentioned in your paper. I like the way

4:01

which you talk about the the hyper masculine

4:04

aesthetic of bearded, tattooed,

4:06

and lumberjack chair to dawn with

4:09

masculine bodies pictured against the back

4:11

driver barrels, sauckered molten

4:14

gleaming pipe work. And so this

4:16

is really masculine coating,

4:18

isn't it? It is. That's being the

4:20

face or I should say the body really because

4:22

male bodies feature very, very prominently

4:25

in the way that craft beer has been represented

4:27

both in brewery marketing,

4:29

but also in the sort of general picture

4:32

that many people would be aware of.

4:34

It's that image of the hipster, the beard,

4:36

tattoos, a certain way of dressing. Let's

4:38

talk a bit more generally about gender

4:40

stereotypes and alcohol consumption.

4:42

Just remind me of some of the associations.

4:45

There are traditionally assumed preferences

4:48

based on what men and women can drink,

4:50

beer, hard spirits as seen as

4:52

masculine drinks, and wine

4:55

soft drinks cocktails, etcetera, are

4:57

typically represented as as

4:59

feminine beverages. And that I think exerts

5:01

quite a power. There's quite a normative power

5:03

for consumers they feel, particularly in

5:06

public spaces, pubs, bars, restaurants,

5:08

you have to kind of conform to type and to

5:11

drink the wrong beverage might mark out is a

5:13

bit a bit transgressive. In

5:15

research, I've conducted young men will

5:17

will drink beer automatically. And if it's not

5:19

necessarily what they like if they

5:21

prefer other beverages. It's

5:23

a sort of public performance of masculinity in

5:25

in some ways that you have to adhere

5:28

to those rules and stereotypes. there

5:30

really is the idea that they're a different palettes.

5:32

diff they have different really taste buds

5:34

if you like. Yeah. That's been something

5:37

that I think the industry has perpetually situated,

5:39

but by and large this assumption that if

5:42

it's a dry or bitter beverage,

5:44

if it's something volumous like

5:46

beer, it won't appeal to women. And

5:48

this carries into the craft beer sector because

5:51

there is almost ingrained assumption that

5:53

craft beer, which is strong, sort

5:55

of high alcoholic content, dark

5:57

beer styles, anything

5:59

very hoppy and very bitter won't

6:02

appeal to the female palate, whereas

6:05

anything with fruity flake

6:07

flavors lighter flavors lighter beer colors.

6:09

It is essentially gender they're they're feminized

6:12

in some senses. Men in the craft

6:14

beer scene are accorded more

6:16

flexibility. If they do choose

6:18

beer styles that aren't necessarily coated as

6:20

masculine, it's assumed they're doing so

6:22

because of their their preferences, their knowledge,

6:24

their adventurous consumer tastes,

6:27

whereas female consumers are seen

6:29

as problematic if they're gonna drink something

6:31

that people would expect to see a male consumer

6:33

drinking such as something very strong, very

6:36

dark. But I've delighted you to say got a clip

6:38

here. This is from mid nineteen sixties

6:40

advert for baby the

6:42

the tradename of a light sparkling

6:45

paired use Perry. The first alcoholic

6:47

product to be ever advertised

6:50

on British commercial television.

6:52

Baby Jam.

6:54

Everyone loves baby Jam.

6:56

Baby sham. I

6:59

love a baby sham. Baby sham

7:01

just bubbles with fun.

7:05

Baby Chan was the

7:07

first alcoholic drink, I think, which was

7:10

specifically marketed to women.

7:12

I want to talk little bit more about the Mark

7:14

cutting the tradition of alcoholic drinks being

7:16

marketing using gendered imagery

7:18

and language. You've got some examples. I

7:21

think the the craft beer scene

7:24

a long time didn't necessarily engage in

7:26

the kind of marketing tricks that the

7:29

main industry was engaged in right

7:31

back to baby Sham. but also

7:33

developing other brands

7:35

specifically for a female market. What

7:37

you do see in some notorious

7:39

now, I think, examples of realignment

7:42

craft beer branding. There's one called trashy

7:45

blonde, top toffee, It

7:47

shows, I think, a bunny x loud female

7:49

and describes her in the tasty notice. stunning

7:52

blonde beer, full bodied with

7:54

tourists hop around. You said

7:57

there there was a lot of controversy over this

7:59

ad. It was actually raised in parliament.

8:01

It was being served in the parliamentary bar. This

8:03

is a few years now. And I have it on good

8:05

authority that there was an increase

8:07

in demand for this beer from the brewery

8:09

following that sort of controversy. There

8:11

was some demand for it in terms of a backlash

8:14

I think. You do also talk about

8:16

the way in which the images, the

8:18

names, the symbols connected

8:20

with craft beer they often

8:22

invoke local culture. So

8:25

sports teams and so on. The thing

8:27

is something consumers desire now in the

8:29

face of, you know, large fairly corporate global

8:32

brands. When you get that emphasis

8:34

on locality, the people tend

8:36

to reach for what makes a place

8:38

unique might be something to do with the landscape,

8:41

something to do with local history, or what

8:43

you repeatedly see is local

8:45

trades, part particular trades and industrial

8:48

professions, often in often in places

8:50

where those industries have

8:52

declined. But I think there's a desire

8:54

on the part from my guest l consumers to

8:57

connect with the symbolism of the past.

8:59

There is a sort of nostalgic element to that.

9:01

I've I've wrongly parted masculine, absolutely

9:03

in the area of rugged manliness, what

9:05

you get from that is this again, this sort of heroic

9:08

narrative that that beer and the people

9:10

consume it is implicitly male. Again, this

9:12

can result in quite an exclusionary

9:15

practice. where women don't see themselves

9:17

in the in the symbolism of craft beer.

9:19

Let's talk about the spaces in which craft beer

9:21

is consumed. I mean, we're not talking

9:23

here really about the traditional male dominated

9:26

pub? No. Something that is

9:29

readily associated, I think, with craft beer,

9:31

is more sort of high red venues,

9:33

more innovative places. So beer

9:36

festivals, craft beer bars, and

9:38

particularly taprooms where you're actually consuming

9:40

the drink in very post or

9:43

actually in the venue where it was brewed.

9:45

And these sorts of spaces, they break the

9:47

tie, I think, with a traditional male dominated

9:50

pub. However, in the in the research

9:52

we've been looking at. It does seem as

9:54

though those spaces still carry with them

9:56

a sort of male territoriality and women's

9:58

presence in there is not impossible.

10:01

It's negotiated or navigated. So

10:04

a lot of female consumers in those

10:06

spaces, it's still assume that they

10:08

are novices, that they are only there

10:10

because a male beer drinking partner

10:12

has kind of guided them to those space and

10:15

the expertise, the passion, the

10:17

interest in in consuming different

10:20

beers for female consumers

10:22

tends be positioned as something contingent.

10:24

They they don't have the legitimacy. That

10:27

comes through in little gestures like

10:30

without any request for advice

10:32

being given advice by sort of bar staff

10:34

or other consumers about guiding

10:36

them towards sort of very easy entry

10:38

style beers. a lot of beer festivals

10:41

take place in in spaces that are already quite

10:43

male coded, I think, you know, rugby clubs.

10:45

What undermines this very close association

10:48

between men and beer,

10:50

you point out that the task of brewing

10:52

was historically an exclusively female

10:55

activity. So the the term brew

10:57

still is worth recalling here because originally,

11:00

that's a historic term, but one

11:02

that's being reclaimed by a generation

11:04

of female brewers in the contemporary

11:07

times. But In the pre industrial era

11:09

brewing was largely domestic activity

11:11

and it took place women within the household

11:14

often to supplement household incomes and

11:16

sold locally to local residents.

11:18

It was only with industrialization that you

11:20

get the sort of scale production brewing

11:23

becomes an industry rather than kind of cottage

11:25

craft. And with that becomes male dominated

11:28

the emphasis on on scale and a kind of

11:30

engineering type quality that you need to

11:32

run these large industrial brew houses.

11:34

It's only in the recent decades. I think that there's

11:37

been a real push to reclaim

11:39

that brewster identity. I think it's a very positive

11:41

step. Did you say that their role in working

11:43

is not usually involved with brewing, but

11:46

more on the accounting office side?

11:48

I think that's replicated in

11:50

both Kraft Jean, Kraft

11:53

Spirits and Kraft beer. There

11:55

is that division of labor and

11:57

and many women working in the sector

11:59

tend to be focused or sort of channeled

12:01

into marketing and sales roles

12:04

and the craft of

12:06

of making the drinks is maybe reserved for

12:08

for the men. You have a nice sort of example

12:11

of an experiment in beer labeling. think

12:14

which people were asked if they

12:16

would drink beer made by David

12:18

or by Sarah. They prefer

12:20

to drink the beer made by David. It's

12:23

quite a revealing study, I think, conducted

12:25

in the US. And as you say, consumers

12:27

given the choice of a hypothetical beer

12:29

brewed by either David or Sarah, they were

12:31

more willing to pay a higher amount for the beer

12:34

brewed by David. And that was just changing one

12:36

name in the in the branding, in the marketing

12:38

text. and people were already

12:40

building that sort of unconscious bias, I think,

12:43

into their desire for a product.

12:45

You hinted progress towards

12:48

degendering if you like of this particular

12:50

arena might be happening. Do you see

12:52

any more positive changes on the horizon,

12:55

I think, which gives you a little bit hope that

12:57

this craft beer might be freed

12:59

from its vascular association. There

13:01

has been progress and you're looking at

13:03

openings organizations like the campaign

13:05

for real, who now vet

13:08

all of the beers submitted to their annual

13:10

beer festival for sexist, misogynistic,

13:13

exclusion renaming of of beers.

13:16

They're just saying that's not that's not welcome. It's

13:18

not needed. In some of the research

13:20

I conducted it a few years ago, I looked at

13:22

crafty in distilleries and in in that's

13:24

in a sector where many distilleries are

13:27

are run by women or run by husband

13:29

and wife teams. And

13:32

that seems to be a sector where the gender

13:34

binary isn't quite so strict. In the

13:36

USA, there's an organization called the Pink

13:38

Boot Society. set up a number of years

13:41

ago to empower

13:43

women working in the craft beer industry to

13:45

highlight the work done by female craft brewers

13:48

In the U. K. there's Project Venus, which is

13:51

a similar initiative. There

13:53

are some good examples of beer

13:55

writers who are pushing for more inclusivity

13:58

and holding the sector to account to really live

14:00

up to those supposedly progressive values

14:03

that for long time have been assumed. And

14:05

what you get is a number of prominent writers

14:08

and also social media being used

14:10

to bring together female craft

14:12

beer drinkers and to sort of build

14:14

a collective identity, a collaborative identity,

14:16

which is really powerful, I think. Thomas

14:19

Surnell Reid. Thank you very much.

14:21

And many thanks to those who emailed in response

14:24

to last week's item on futonitarianism. They

14:27

wrote to me at thinking about

14:29

at BBC dot co dot

14:31

u k. There's one other highly

14:33

gendered drinking practice that I recall

14:36

from my adolescent days in Liverpool,

14:38

and this the custom that

14:40

you went out with the lads for a thrush

14:42

on a Friday night and reserved

14:45

Saturday night for a more temperate

14:47

and sedate drinking session with your

14:49

girlfriend. But a new

14:51

research paper shows that this

14:53

gender distinction is long broken down. He's

14:56

called a proper night out,

14:58

a practice theory exploration of

15:00

gender drinking. His orders

15:02

are marked Lima, Maria Pierre Chantini,

15:05

and Kath Haendel. And Kath was a senior lecturer

15:07

in childhood and youth at Liverpool

15:10

Hope University now joins

15:12

me. Kath Your whole study

15:14

comprises data of young people's

15:17

narrative accounts and social

15:19

media content relating to their alcohol

15:22

consumption. You collected these over a fourteen

15:25

month period prior to the COVID

15:27

pandemic, and you recruited three

15:30

mixed sex friendship groups comprising

15:32

altogether twenty three young people from

15:34

low income neighborhoods in

15:37

North West England. Let's

15:39

start with a title show. to rather grand

15:41

title. How did you arrive at the title a

15:43

proper night out? The

15:44

title really came from the the

15:46

study part disappoints themselves when

15:49

I started talking to these

15:51

to these friendship groups of young people,

15:54

and

15:54

they described different

15:56

social occasion when they might

15:58

drink alcohol. So

15:59

as you've already said, you know, going out with

16:02

a girlfriend or a boyfriend, it

16:04

might be having a meal with family.

16:07

or quiz nights, different

16:09

forms of nights out. But

16:11

alcohol was not always essential for

16:13

those occasions, although they may drink

16:15

on those occasions. They didn't regard it

16:18

as being the most essential

16:20

part. And there was one

16:22

particular occasion that

16:24

all the study participants could

16:27

identify with. And that was

16:29

an occasion involved going

16:30

out and drinking drinking

16:33

to drunkenness,

16:33

a thrashes you described

16:35

it wonderfully. Three participants use

16:38

that phrase proper night out on on separate

16:40

occasions to me. I just thought that

16:43

was a really useful framing. The

16:45

word proper kinds of access is an

16:47

intensive hire. It's a really kind of

16:49

emphasize that night out and

16:51

distinguish it from other types of

16:53

night out.

16:54

Absolutely. No. Well, I've been talking to Tom

16:56

about gender and drinking, but

16:59

you would you that's what interested you

17:01

about this. I mean, why why did you

17:03

take that particular focus?

17:04

When we started, you're really on picking.

17:07

and really start to understand that

17:10

particular alcohol consumption practice.

17:13

There were some unwritten rules

17:15

and some know how that kind of governed

17:18

that relationship with alcohol. And

17:20

those unwritten rules and

17:23

know how were were very gendered.

17:25

So although the occasion was

17:28

the same, it was different

17:30

for the young man and the young woman in

17:32

the study.

17:33

And you point out that although historically women

17:35

have been lighter drinkers than men, and the

17:37

latest evidence suggests that alcohol drinking

17:39

practices of young men and women are

17:41

much more aligned than they have been previously.

17:44

Yeah.

17:44

They're converging much more

17:46

certainly with some groups of

17:49

young men and women. Particularly

17:52

in relation to this kind of drinking

17:54

occasion. So the drinking

17:56

occasion is what becomes important, and

17:59

that drunkenness, that drinking to

18:01

intoxication is very much

18:03

part part of the rules that

18:06

govern the practice. So in order to

18:08

properly participate in this, you

18:10

have to get a drunk. So young man

18:12

and young women are drinking similar

18:15

amounts. I mean, young women haven't quite caught

18:17

up yet with young men, but they are

18:19

the the closest that they have been for

18:22

decades.

18:22

Tell me little bit more

18:24

going back to the nature of this proper night

18:26

out because you talk about the

18:28

way you have to have the right

18:31

look and appearance. What

18:33

what what does that mean for young women and men?

18:35

What what what do they have to do? What do they

18:38

have to wear? What do they have to look like?

18:40

Because

18:40

traditionally, getting

18:42

drunk has been associated with kind of

18:44

masculine behaviors. For

18:46

young women who then get

18:48

drunk they are kind of transposing those

18:51

gender norms. So what we

18:53

see is that the femininity

18:56

really is presenting it

18:59

through getting this this right

19:01

look. And they would spend hours

19:03

planning, how they would look. It would all be

19:05

done on message looking out beforehand, thinking

19:08

about outfits and hairstyles.

19:10

And the appropriate look in this study

19:13

was very set realized. It was very

19:15

feminine appearance. So

19:17

full makeup, stylized hair,

19:20

that could be curled or straightened, quite

19:22

and it would be a dress, a short dress.

19:25

It would definitely be high heels.

19:27

So Charlotte in in my paper says,

19:30

it will be full face of makeup. dress,

19:32

hair, completely cloth, everything. And

19:35

that really kind of epitomizes it.

19:38

And over the top family and inse, and a and

19:40

a high a femininity, and Tom was talking

19:42

about a hyper muscularity before.

19:44

It's like the extremes of that femininity,

19:47

really.

19:48

What about the men in this we haven't talked

19:50

about them. What what about them? Did they have to have a special

19:52

look? Yes.

19:53

I found that they did, and

19:55

that really sort of contrasted some

19:58

previous studies. The young man

20:00

didn't have those discussions that the young

20:02

women have before. You didn't seek

20:04

quite the planning going in. But

20:06

obviously because I was looking at

20:09

their social media and what they

20:11

shared on so social media. The

20:13

images were of well groomed,

20:16

similarly styled young man.

20:19

There was a consents this. There was

20:21

some kind of degree of cooperation

20:23

and agreement in what constituted

20:26

the right look for the young man.

20:27

in the same way as the

20:29

young women. There's a nice contradiction

20:31

you discovered because when you spoke to

20:33

these young people, they more less said, oh, any

20:36

alcohol will do the thing is getting

20:38

drunk. That's what the real point of the

20:40

night out is. But when you began to

20:42

look in detail at what they were actually

20:44

drinking. You found this to be

20:46

a contradiction.

20:47

Most of the participants started off with,

20:49

yeah, anything will do. So there was

20:51

a real kind functionality to their drinking.

20:54

What was important was was getting drunk?

20:57

Well, when we started to unpick that a

20:59

bit, there were different says that were

21:01

emerging. And also when we looked

21:03

at their social media content as

21:05

well as photographs, the type of

21:08

find alcohol was very gendered

21:10

along similar lines to what

21:12

Tom was talking about before the

21:14

young women would have photos whereby

21:17

they were holding wine, cocktails,

21:20

some kind of fizz at Brisecco, and

21:23

the young men were holding

21:25

beers predominantly, but also

21:27

have some strong spirits like whiskey.

21:30

When I questioned them about it, then they

21:32

talked about taste. Whereas before adorptionalice,

21:36

And that was an obvious kind contradiction.

21:39

Taste became the justifier as

21:41

to what our alcohol was exact applicable and

21:44

what wasn't.

21:44

She talked about young women

21:47

feminizing the beer drinking

21:49

experience. And how did they do that?

21:51

drinking

21:51

and drunkenness is traditionally very

21:54

very masculine. Tom's just been telling

21:57

us all about that as in relation to craft

21:59

beer. And so it's very similar

22:01

here. So in order to participate

22:04

in the proper nouns out, the young

22:06

women need to feminize, have to experience,

22:09

they will do that by drinking, you

22:11

know, these kind of girly drinks, drinks

22:13

that are much more acceptable for

22:16

your

22:16

women to drink. And if

22:18

they did drink a beer, there will be very

22:20

specific rules about how

22:23

and what they were drinking. So you

22:25

can seminize that drinking experience

22:27

by drinking it from a bottle, not

22:29

a pint glass.

22:30

It's acceptable to drink a cold

22:33

beer on a a very hot day,

22:35

maybe put a piece of fruit piece of lime or

22:37

something in the top of the bubble. These are

22:39

always of harmonizing that

22:41

experience. I've got a reading here.

22:43

This from your paper. These are the words of a

22:45

woman you call Claire, and she's describing

22:48

this sort of drunken behavior she

22:50

doesn't like to see on proper night

22:52

out. It's girls

22:54

I just hate them. They just stress

22:56

me out. They either cry in

22:58

on knocking me over. I

23:00

was on the stairs the other day and this girl

23:02

fell over in a cause like a domino's

23:04

effect, and she was just like

23:06

a mess.

23:08

Then she just got up and was laughing.

23:11

And I was, what y'all laugh and for,

23:12

but I am not

23:14

like that. I am not that bad.

23:18

I'll probably am, but I don't see myself

23:20

as being. Now

23:22

you make absolutely clear that

23:24

that getting highly intoxicated, this

23:27

was an absolute key

23:29

feature sure of these proper nights out.

23:32

But then you start to look at

23:34

differences about the

23:36

expectations of how men and women

23:38

should behave. when they're drunk.

23:40

And they're they're really rather different.

23:42

Aren't they expand expand on that for me, William,

23:44

Kev?

23:45

The young man, this loss of control,

23:47

this something that's celebrated. It's the

23:49

mark of showing how good the

23:51

night's house was, older

23:54

a man with their drinking. Perhaps

23:56

the challenge always was to control

23:59

those intoxicated effects of drinking,

24:01

kind of holding your drink or not

24:04

being a lightweight that you can drink

24:06

coke previous amounts, but still

24:08

function. And that's kind

24:10

of very much kind of traditional masculinity.

24:13

When I first started reading some of Tom's work.

24:15

And he started talking about these

24:17

kind of younger musculities where

24:19

they were celebrating more of a

24:22

of a lot of controlled. So

24:24

those things that perhaps we associate with

24:26

intoxication falling down,

24:29

being sick, that those are being

24:31

celebrated by the young man. But

24:33

for young women, there still needs

24:36

to be some control in there. So

24:38

this I idea of a controlled loss

24:40

of a control. Phoebe, for instance,

24:42

in my study, described her

24:44

intoxication as being tipsy,

24:47

where we kind of unpicked that.

24:49

The amount of alcohol she described drinking

24:52

to me was an awful lot.

24:54

You know, well, it exceeded government guidelines.

24:57

So she was distancing herself

24:59

from that other as we heard

25:01

in that quote there. I'm not like

25:03

that. am not that bad. So

25:05

again, it's about trying to

25:08

scrutinize the drinking experience and

25:10

saying that that I am not as bad

25:12

as that. That's those other women.

25:15

They're very clear that actually sometimes

25:17

it might be them, but they

25:19

are distant saying they're feminine cells

25:22

from that one feminine other. I'm

25:24

judging very, very harshly that

25:26

these other young women, particularly those

25:28

that I mean, those that are not in their group.

25:31

In their groups, they're very supportive

25:33

of each other.

25:33

And the men don't actually

25:36

seem to criticize or

25:39

condemn those who

25:41

lose control after being intoxicated.

25:44

No. No. Absolutely not because the

25:46

rules are different for the

25:48

young man and young women. But the young

25:50

man are equally sparaging about

25:53

young women who get drunk. And in fact,

25:55

I had an example where young woman

25:57

who was so drunk that actually she

25:59

couldn't get to where they were going

26:01

and had to be taken home in the taxi.

26:04

Now, she was never invited out

26:07

with that group again. Within their

26:09

friendship groups, they said they

26:11

looked out for each other and they described

26:13

that act of caring

26:15

again, the caring was very gendered. So

26:18

for the young man in those groups,

26:20

they were seen as being protectors, protectors

26:23

of the young women, from other young man

26:25

or older man as well. The

26:27

young women kind of saw the young

26:29

man as taking on that role and

26:32

the young man saw themselves as

26:34

taking on that role, so kind of traditional kind

26:36

of masculinity. So if they didn't want

26:38

to take on that role, then they had to go

26:40

out in a male only friendship

26:43

group and not in the mixed group.

26:45

Cass,

26:45

I'm rather aware we've been talking rather a bit

26:48

bit glibly about these

26:50

nights out of these high levels of intoxication.

26:52

I mean, there are clearly health

26:54

issues and the serious health

26:56

issues involved here. I

26:58

mean, Tell me what you think your

27:01

paper, your kind of study. How does it

27:03

help in this area? Why

27:05

does what you've discovered matter in policy

27:07

terms do you think? The

27:08

issue young people fully understand

27:11

that alcohol is a harmful substance.

27:14

They understand that the actions

27:17

when they are drunk can be quite

27:19

dangerous. So think when we when

27:21

we look at policy around harmful

27:24

consumption practices of what one

27:26

of which is shrinking these

27:28

excessive amounts of alcohol. We

27:31

need to think a bit more about moving

27:34

away from kind of individual messages

27:36

of responsibility. These nights

27:39

out are for young people are very important.

27:41

They feel valued. It's an important

27:44

part of belonging. We have to really

27:46

understand the practice. And part of understanding

27:49

that practice is understanding the

27:51

gendered aspects of it.

27:53

It's a very routine in very normalized

27:56

know how is something that

27:58

is embedded. So those are

28:00

very difficult things to unpick and

28:02

unpack and prevent. There

28:04

we must stop, Kath, Hennel. Thank you

28:06

very much. Actually, we always talk

28:08

to Jake has rather unfortunately

28:11

reminded my own drinking

28:13

days. EMEA is customary to round

28:15

off a six point subsirby evening

28:17

with a round of rum and Peeps.

28:20

Yes. And we also relish our men

28:22

at Pele and Black Current. It

28:24

all makes my current night in before

28:26

the tele with three glasses of

28:29

easy drinking carat seemed positively,

28:32

well, pucilanomus.

28:43

That was a thinking aloud podcast

28:45

from BBC Radio four. You'll find a

28:47

treasure trove of other thinking aloud programs

28:50

on BBC sounds.