1:59

it meant a human favourite so it wasn't

2:02

always used in relation to animals. So

2:04

it's really from the late 18th

2:06

early 19th century people started to

2:08

use the pet to talk about that special

2:11

human animal relationship. And

2:13

when we were working on this for the book

2:16

we tried to come up with a working

2:18

definition of what a pet was so we thought

2:20

about animals that were given kind of

2:22

special names that were brought inside

2:25

the home and really fundamentally

2:27

animals that did some kind of emotional

2:30

work

2:30

for people so animals that meant something

2:33

to people fundamentally. You call your book

2:35

pet revolution and the word

2:37

pet and revolution does seem rather

2:39

unlikely juxtaposition. What is

2:42

the pet revolution?

2:43

Well revolution is a word that

2:45

gets used by historians quite a lot

2:47

so you're probably familiar with the industrial

2:50

revolution and many different kind of political

2:52

revolutions so it's usually referred to

2:55

great deal of upheaval or change

2:57

in society. So we've all been quite

2:59

playful with our title and calling it pet

3:02

revolution but actually it does

3:04

refer to quite a radical change

3:06

in the way people related to animals

3:08

so in the modern period

3:11

pet keeping as we know it in society

3:13

today really started to become embedded

3:16

in British culture more people were keeping

3:18

pets it was more socially acceptable

3:20

to keep pets and they were also increasingly

3:23

important in the economy. In 2021

3:25

we've

3:27

got news that 17 million

3:30

British homes had at least one pet

3:32

meaning for the first time this is the first time records

3:35

began households without a pet were

3:37

in the minority. Now you

3:39

note that this transformation of

3:41

human relations with animals it

3:44

depended on it was contingent on broader

3:47

economic social and cultural

3:49

shifts over the past 200 years.

3:51

First of all on a very

3:53

practical level living standards

3:55

are gradually increasing across

3:57

that period and it becomes more possible

3:59

to keep pets if you have more

4:02

disposable income. But I think

4:04

in British culture, in the 19th century

4:06

in particular,

4:07

home and family are increasingly

4:10

celebrated and keeping a pet becomes

4:12

a way of bringing animals

4:14

into your home life and also

4:16

really expressing what it means to be part

4:19

of the family. Animals become part

4:21

of that.

4:21

Yes, you talk about an outpouring of pet

4:24

culture, elaborated on that.

4:26

So you can see it in artwork.

4:29

Images of pets become very, very popular.

4:31

Cat photography, popular from the

4:34

middle of the 19th century, actually quite difficult

4:36

to do. But actually, there was a guy called

4:38

Harry Pointer in Brighton who was a

4:40

brilliant cat photographer. Also,

4:43

you see it in 19th century print culture.

4:45

And the first pet care

4:47

manuals appear from the middle of the 19th

4:49

century. And there's a new breed of

4:52

writers, pet advisors, who

4:54

come to the fore, making a good living.

4:56

Vets as well. So if your pets

4:58

get ill, they can be cured. Well,

4:59

absolutely. I mean, in the 19th century,

5:02

actually, most vets were really focused

5:04

on working animals, so

5:05

kettles, cattle and of course, horses.

5:08

But from the early 20th

5:10

century, they start to look to

5:12

care for cats and dogs more. And by

5:15

the 1950s, actually, that's a really key

5:17

part of the market for vets. So

5:19

we see pets gradually becoming

5:22

part of veterinary medicine, which actually

5:24

really changes our relationship with them as

5:26

well.

5:26

By the 18th century, you do point

5:28

out the keeping of pets, especially of small

5:30

dogs that was easily fitted into boudoirs

5:33

and drawing rooms. That's quite

5:35

common in affluent households. But

5:38

very wealthy people in the Victorian era

5:40

began to choose more exotic

5:43

beasts as pets.

5:44

During the 19th century, the

5:46

empire expands and trade

5:49

routes expand and also the kind

5:51

of technology improves, which

5:54

allows a greater flow of trade

5:56

of exotic goods into London and Liverpool.

6:00

One of those things that comes in is

6:02

exotic animals. There are special dealerships.

6:05

Charles Jamrack ran a very famous

6:07

one based in the docks in London

6:09

and he stocked tigers, lions, all

6:12

kinds of exotic megafauna. Very

6:14

wealthy Victorians could show their

6:16

status or their kind of curiosity,

6:19

if you like, through having animal

6:21

menageries.

6:21

Tell me about Dante Gabriel

6:23

Rossetti. Yes,

6:24

so he had quite a large menagerie

6:27

in his house in Chelsea. From

6:30

an animal welfare perspective it wasn't

6:32

great actually. He didn't look after

6:34

the animals very well and in fact some of them ate

6:36

each other at one point which wasn't brilliant.

6:38

He had raccoons and wallabies I

6:40

think. Yes,

6:41

he did and he had a wombat that he was very

6:43

attached to and he wrote a very effective affecting

6:46

poem.

6:46

Charles Dickens as well? Yes,

6:48

Dickens was also hugely

6:50

attached to animals and had a special relationship

6:52

with his cat and also a raven.

6:55

Yes, so all kinds of animals were very

6:58

prominent in the lives

6:59

of Victorians. In the 19th century, as

7:01

your study indicates, that people

7:03

were as likely to think of a pet

7:05

as a creature to be captured

7:07

or tamed as they

7:09

were an animal bred really

7:12

for domestication. And you link

7:14

these attitudes and these shifting attitudes

7:16

to the heyday of the British Emperor and

7:18

the decline of the British Emperor and suggest they

7:21

change with imperial decline. Explain

7:23

that relationship for me. In the 19th

7:25

century it was very much accepted

7:27

that wild animals could

7:30

be pets and in fact advice literature

7:32

encouraged boys to go off and

7:35

capture wild birds from

7:37

British hedgerows and bring them back

7:39

into the house of pets and this is very much framed

7:42

within the language of capture.

7:44

So you can see a clear link between

7:46

this and the kind of boys own literature

7:48

of the period that encouraged imperial

7:51

bearing do if you like. So you can see

7:54

pet capture as quite imperialist.

7:57

I also think the idea of taming in itself

8:00

Even Victorian naturalists who were

8:02

keen on the protection of animals also

8:05

believed that they were able to tame

8:07

the wild and a really good example

8:10

is the naturalist Eliza Brightwin

8:12

who wrote a book called Wild Nature

8:14

Won by Kindness in the late 19th

8:16

century and she claimed that she was able to tame

8:19

everything from a badger to a stick insect.

8:21

This was really sometimes very unsuccessful

8:24

but it was typical of the Victorian confidence.

8:26

I've got here a reading this is from

8:28

Beeson's book of home pets 1861

8:32

which illustrates why parents were encouraged

8:35

to introduce pets into their children's

8:37

lives. Let parents try to inspire

8:39

their children the best of all home

8:41

pets with a fondness for natural

8:44

science whether it be encouraged by

8:46

keeping and caring for a dog, a cat,

8:49

a rabbit, a pigeon or a songbird

8:52

by rearing flowers, by forming an

8:54

herbarium or a collection of moths

8:56

and butterflies or by other

8:58

kindred means and they will surely

9:01

be better boys and girls and make better

9:03

men and women, better members of society

9:06

and above all better Christians.

9:08

Biblical language was often

9:11

used you say by Victorian pet

9:13

keepers announcing

9:15

really humans intrinsic supremacy.

9:18

The Victorians had a very hierarchical

9:21

view of the world in which certain

9:23

kinds of humans were seen as superior

9:26

to others. Ideologies of class

9:28

and race were important and you can also see

9:30

this in relation to how they see

9:32

their relationship with the animal world. They're

9:35

responsible for caring for the animal world

9:37

but they see themselves as ultimately

9:39

superior

9:40

whereas I think when we move

9:42

into the 20th century there's a growing recognition

9:45

of the animal world particularly wildlife

9:48

as something that's separate and

9:51

deserves more respect and needs

9:54

to be left to itself if you like

9:56

and you can really see that in campaigns

9:58

to protect wild birds.

9:59

from the late 19th century, which actually

10:02

really affects the way people see wildlife

10:05

and this has a knock on the sex of pet keeping

10:07

because keeping wild birds becomes

10:09

much less popular.

10:10

Pets have long been really commodities

10:14

within a capitalist system of production and

10:16

consumption. Tell me about this harsh

10:18

side if you like.

10:19

Animals are increasingly commodified

10:22

in the 19th century and particularly dogs

10:26

and to a lesser extent cats because

10:28

the 19th century is when breed

10:31

standards are established for dogs. The

10:33

Kennel Club becomes the national organisation

10:36

that's a sort of arbiter of breed

10:38

and once those standards are in place certain

10:41

breeds of dogs with special characteristics

10:43

become more economically valuable

10:46

and the creation of dog

10:48

clubs and dog shows they become

10:51

increasingly valuable commodities. But

10:53

you can also see the rise of

10:55

certain kinds of retail spaces

10:58

for selling pets. So pet shops become

11:01

increasingly important on the British high street

11:03

in the 20th century and

11:05

again medicine for pets is really

11:08

a kind of boom area within the economy.

11:10

So companies like Spratt

11:12

for example promote dog foods

11:15

but they also have a whole range of

11:17

different remedies for dogs

11:18

and cats. Let's talk about the 20th century,

11:21

the main factors which allowed pet

11:23

ownership to become such a widespread

11:25

phenomenon. We talked about the figures. What

11:28

was it that prompted this huge growth?

11:30

In terms of living spaces people

11:32

tend to have more space in their homes in the

11:34

20th century and also family

11:37

size, average family size

11:39

falls across the course of the 20th century so you've

11:41

literally got more room for pets. But

11:43

I think one of the biggest drivers of actually

11:46

bringing animals into the home is really emotional.

11:49

Children often demand that

11:52

families get pets, that's one way that happens.

11:54

But also across the course of the 20th century

11:57

people use pets to kind of make a difference.

11:59

their own families

12:00

in new ways. So after

12:03

the First World War there were lots

12:05

more single women than before and

12:07

so we've got examples of single women bringing

12:10

pets and living with say a large

12:12

number of cats or dogs and it's a stereotype

12:15

but for people this was a real way of

12:18

making a different kind of family and you

12:20

can also see it if you look kind

12:22

of beyond heteronormative families

12:24

homosexual men for example we've got quite

12:26

a few examples in our study of people writing

12:29

about their dogs or cats

12:31

in that context as well and I think pets

12:33

really allow people to make their

12:36

own version of the family.

12:37

By 2021 you write cats

12:40

and dogs were equally the most popular

12:42

pets about 24 million

12:45

in total yet we are so often seen

12:47

principally as a nation of dog lovers. Now

12:50

tell me a little bit about this increased popularity

12:52

of cats and why it was

12:54

that well that cats

12:56

were less popular in the Victorian era.

12:59

Cats

12:59

are quite unpopular in the

13:01

19th century and they're often gendered as feminine.

13:04

In the Victorian era dogs were very

13:06

much the top pet and you can

13:08

see that the values that were

13:10

often associated with dogs so loyalty

13:13

trustfulness you know steadfastness

13:15

all of these qualities were also celebrated

13:17

by the Victorians as key parts of the Victorian

13:20

manly character so dogs

13:23

really fitted the bill in terms of

13:25

the kind of Victorian picture

13:27

of their national selves if you like. Cats

13:30

were seen in the Victorian period as

13:32

they are sometimes now as feminine

13:34

and often associated with women so it's quite

13:36

interesting that as women become

13:39

more empowered within society so do

13:41

cats but I think cats also have special

13:44

qualities that I think perhaps appeal

13:46

to people in the 20th century more

13:48

so they're often quite

13:49

independent.

13:58

In the early centuries, Siamese

14:01

cats had become really popular and

14:03

people enjoyed the kind of exoticness

14:06

of these cats. And I would say that actually

14:09

constructing the cat as a kind of sort of exotic

14:12

other in their homes actually reinforced

14:14

their own sense of Britishness. So the cats

14:17

were not themselves British emblems,

14:19

but having this kind of exotic outsider

14:22

cat helps you kind of actually think

14:24

about yourself as British. Can we

14:26

talk about Britain

14:28

as a nation of pet lovers?

14:31

I mean we often do, that's often incorporated

14:33

into descriptions of the British character,

14:36

isn't it? Is that still true? Well,

14:38

if you look at recent statistics,

14:40

actually pet love,

14:42

if you like, is a pretty global phenomenon

14:45

these days. And there are differences between

14:47

countries, of course. For example, in

14:49

Poland, dog ownership is very high.

14:51

South America, you know, people are very keen

14:54

on pets. So there are all kinds of

14:56

people all across the world these days who

14:58

are keeping pets and who love dogs. But

15:01

I think for British, I think we like

15:03

to see ourselves as a nation of dog lovers. And

15:05

I think that

15:05

does partly go back to the Victorians. Let's

15:08

leave that with ourselves as a nation of dog

15:10

lovers. Jane Hamlet, thank you very much.

15:13

Now, I'm very reliably informed

15:16

that cats don't eat sugar.

15:18

Why? Because they can't taste it, which

15:21

bestows an advantage upon them, which many

15:23

of the listeners to last week's programme wish

15:25

was shared with humans, such people as poor

15:28

Mandon Gassman, who welcomed

15:30

the programme and tells me he spent 40 years, yes, 40

15:32

years of his life treating

15:35

sugar-related dental disease. The

15:38

Colin Archer rather regretted our cursory

15:41

treatment of beet and our neglect

15:43

of fruit, while David Austin wrote, movingly,

15:45

about peer pressures

15:47

in the workplace. Sophie

15:50

is leaving us all next week. So

15:52

sad. Cakes and bikis

15:55

in the stockroom. All these good people

15:57

wrote to me at Thinking About at

15:59

BBB. Now although

16:18

I'm told that Webb Pierce may have had

16:20

other things on his mind than strolling around the local

16:22

park with a Labrador, his enthusiasm

16:25

for the pastime parallels the pleasure

16:28

found by my next guest, Jessica

16:30

Amberson, lecturer in adult

16:33

continuing education at University

16:35

College Cork in Ireland, the

16:38

enthusiasm, the pleasure she found when

16:40

she talked to dog lovers about

16:42

their canine perambulations.

16:45

And her conclusions are published in the Irish

16:47

Journal of Sociology under the title

16:50

on being a dog person. Meaning

16:53

making and dog walking.

16:55

She now joins me. Jessica,

16:58

you really are an insider in the world

17:00

of dogs aren't you? I mean at the age of four

17:02

I think it was, you got a dog for your birthday

17:05

and the 40 years since dogs have

17:08

gone on playing a significant role in your life,

17:10

I mean you, yes you are a dog person

17:12

I think. Is that a sociological

17:14

category? I think it should be and I'm

17:16

working to make it one, doing my research

17:19

I asked people, you know, what words would you

17:21

use if you were to describe yourself? Someone

17:24

might say I'm a man from Cork, I'm a father,

17:26

I'm a teacher, I'm a dog person and

17:29

I heard this again and again and again.

17:32

People who are perceived I suppose by others as

17:34

being dog people as well, that's a sort of a second

17:36

category where we talk about social identity. So

17:38

for example, my niece drew me a picture

17:41

recently, my niece Emily and in it I'm walking

17:43

my two greyhounds. So obviously when she

17:45

thinks about her auntie, she thinks about

17:47

me as a dog walker. So

17:50

science has only recently started to

17:53

consider non-human

17:55

animals and your study is part of a body

17:57

of work which is trying to rectify that emissions

17:59

isn't it? and it involved a whole range

18:02

of walking interviews with

18:04

dog owners. What did you intend

18:06

to get out of the research? Why

18:09

choose people who are walking their dogs? The

18:11

main focus of a study like this is to look

18:13

at how animal lives will intersect with those of

18:15

humans. The reason I suppose I interviewed

18:18

people while they were walking was I wanted to see

18:20

this happening for myself. So I could

18:22

have sat in somebody's front room and I could

18:24

have listened to them talking about how

18:26

things were with their dog.

18:27

But no, instead we went out and

18:29

we did what sociologists would call messy

18:31

research. And gosh it was at

18:33

times, I was up to my knees in mud at times. And

18:36

it allowed me to see this identity

18:38

of the dog person happening.

18:40

So you would see the reaction to the dog, or see

18:43

the reaction to the environment.

18:44

You get them out and about with their dog,

18:46

onto familiar territory and people

18:48

relaxed. You have a lovely phrase,

18:50

daily dog walking is

18:53

less remarkable than Wordsworth's

18:55

poetic wanderings, but no

18:58

less meaningful you say. Now

19:00

tell me about the interviews where you did them.

19:02

You did them all over the place didn't you? Yeah, which

19:04

was a lovely aspect of the research because

19:06

you

19:07

know, sociologically you're saying to people, can

19:09

you be the expert, can you take me to your

19:12

familiar territory? So there were city

19:14

streets, some of them were in wooded

19:16

areas, one nature reserve. So

19:18

it meant that we were out and about

19:21

seeing

19:21

all sorts of places,

19:23

but primarily people were just doing

19:25

their dog walk. What did you ask them? Why

19:27

is once they became dog people

19:29

in the first place? What it meant to them

19:31

now? Yeah, there's a lot of literature

19:34

out there about sort of dogs and people

19:36

and the lives we've had together. But I

19:38

really wanted to learn about why people decided

19:40

to do this. A recently married

19:42

couple

19:43

said that getting their dog made them a family. A very

19:46

high number of people spoke about the role

19:48

the dog played in promoting good mental health.

19:51

Three of my participants had been hospitalised

19:54

previously for mental health illnesses and

19:56

they talked about the fact that the dog meant they

19:59

absolutely had to do it. to get up. There was

20:01

no staying in bed. It was like they

20:03

were almost an informal, emotional

20:06

support animal, if you will. One person

20:08

in particular spoke about bringing

20:10

their son's service dog to work

20:12

with them, because in Ireland service dogs weren't

20:14

allowed into schools for quite a long time.

20:17

And as a parent who had social difficulties

20:19

themselves, they

20:20

spoke about how the dog acted

20:23

very

20:23

much as a catalyst. So people

20:25

at work would come over, rub the dog, have

20:27

a chat. The dog walking space

20:29

provided a setting in

20:31

which couples could communicate, spend time

20:34

together.

20:35

Absolutely, yeah. There was real richness

20:37

in that. So there was one couple in particular

20:39

I spoke to. The female

20:41

element of the couple talked about how

20:44

that was very useful and they used it as

20:46

a thinking and planning space as

20:48

parents. However, really interestingly,

20:50

the man in the couple said that while

20:53

he did like to walk and

20:55

think and talk, he found that a

20:57

dog's presence sometimes made that

20:59

difficult. And for me, that said a lot

21:01

about the communication that occurs

21:04

between the dog and the walker

21:06

while on a walk,

21:07

in that because he was communicating with his wife, he

21:10

didn't feel as able to communicate with the dog and

21:12

vice versa. I was very

21:14

taken by one of

21:16

your informants called Barry

21:19

when he spoke of the unique power of the

21:21

dog walk to transport us to other

21:23

places and states of being.

21:26

Can you remind me of what it was he said? He

21:28

referred to a Chinese quotation about dogs

21:31

taking us into another landscape.

21:33

It was one of the sort of comments that

21:35

captured the essence of the research for me in

21:38

that he used an example where he spoke

21:40

about people going to a doctor's surgery

21:42

and we all sat there quite quietly. But

21:44

if you go to a vet's surgery,

21:46

people are chatting and they're, what's your

21:48

dog's name and what age is he and what

21:51

are you here for? People would say, oh, he's

21:53

not been well. And you'd see the sympathy

21:55

coming across in people's faces and I hope

21:57

it goes okay. So Barry tried to kill me.

21:59

capture some of that different world

22:02

that it brings us into in terms of abandoning

22:04

some of our usual social norms where

22:07

we might say, hello, nice weather. It just

22:10

skipped all of that. We've

22:12

been talking about walks in general, but I mean,

22:14

we need to talk down to about different kinds of

22:16

walks, the functional, the recreational

22:18

walks. Walks where maybe we're nipping

22:20

out in the morning before we go to work or just

22:23

before bedtime and they would be very short

22:25

walks. There are functional walks, so

22:27

they're oriented around something like the dog's toileting

22:29

needs, for example. On the other hand,

22:32

we then have our recreational walks and

22:34

these are very different. So these are

22:36

focused on leisure. People spoke about

22:38

these walks as being a treat and maybe

22:41

going somewhere special. Sometimes

22:43

people talked about, you know, going to locations

22:45

that were at a bit of a distance. Key difference here

22:47

though was time. So on the recreational

22:49

walks, people had more time in hand

22:52

and they use that well. When I see someone

22:54

walking a dog along, I suppose I

22:56

have a view as to whether they're doing it well

22:58

or badly. There are public expectations,

23:01

aren't there, and perceptions of good and bad dog

23:03

walkers and good and bad dogs.

23:05

I'm always distinguished between good

23:08

and bad dogs as I'm approaching them. What

23:10

did your interviews have to tell you about this? So

23:12

I mean, this was very much part of the

23:14

discourses and the interviews. I mean, we have the

23:17

more tragic side of this, obviously, in

23:19

stories at the moment around dog attacks

23:22

and some kind of problematic breeds.

23:25

But on the softer side of things, what

23:27

we would see would be people

23:29

who either sort of tried to

23:31

do something that would please others. They'd

23:33

apologize for their dog's behavior if it

23:35

was less than ideal. So they spoke

23:38

for their dogs in that way. A

23:40

lot of people did talk about the willingness

23:43

of observers to comment. Collective

23:45

identities I think is very interesting to return to here

23:47

as well in the sense of, you know,

23:49

looking at what do we understand by

23:52

being a responsible dog owner.

23:53

Are we doing a good enough job? What

23:55

does that look like? There's something egalitarian

23:58

that I think.

23:59

about dog walkers and

24:02

dog walking groups. Expand

24:04

on that for me. It was exceedingly rare

24:06

that anyone spoke about the

24:08

professions of people that they walked with. Where

24:11

if you're at a party or you're on a bus and

24:13

you're talking to someone, questions might be

24:15

things like, what do you do, where do you

24:17

work? None of that happened.

24:19

The focus was so much more on, you

24:22

know, where did you get your dog and what's

24:24

it like walking here? Now that's not

24:26

to say that this was all soft

24:27

and fluffy, and there was certainly kind

24:29

of sides of conflict in this as well, but

24:32

it was usually over dog-related issues rather than any

24:34

greater social or political issues. And

24:37

then the way in which dog people

24:39

talk to each other, engage in

24:41

emotional intimate behavior with other

24:44

dog owners, relatively intimate

24:46

with other dog owners almost immediately. Absolutely.

24:50

I describe this as risk actually in the paper because

24:52

it's not something we normally or naturally do.

24:55

People would often sort of talk about, you know,

24:57

the loss, the grief associated with

24:59

a dog. One interviewee, for example,

25:01

she was very, very formal and did not

25:04

provide any personal details. And all of a

25:06

sudden started speaking about the fact that

25:08

her sole vulnerability lay

25:11

in the relationship with her dog and the things she

25:13

feared with things that would threaten that relationship.

25:16

She also spoke about somebody who came to her

25:18

house one day actually, a chimney cleaner, and

25:20

she described him as, you know, a very sort

25:22

of well-built man, had tattoos,

25:24

looked very tough. But she ended up describing

25:27

a story of this gentleman

25:29

down on his knees in her front room, sobbing,

25:32

because her dog reminded him of

25:34

a dog that he had lost. They

25:36

had just met. I'm going to

25:38

finish with a reading because your paper began

25:41

with a quote from a woman you call in who had a,

25:43

I think she had a small Jack Russell terrier.

25:45

And here she is describing her

25:48

feelings about her dog, George.

25:50

I live in a small seaside town with

25:52

George, a Jack Russell terrier.

25:55

He's a door-side little guy who loves his

25:57

walk. He has a number of health problems.

27:37

vegan

28:01

it would save more greenhouse gases

28:03

than those currently produced by

28:06

the whole of the UK. Just

28:08

what I'd

28:08

mentioned is.

28:11

That was a Thinking Allowed podcast

28:13

from BBC Radio 4. You'll find a treasure

28:15

trove of other Thinking Allowed programmes on

28:18

BBC

28:18

Sounds.