Glimpsing the nightly news or scrolling through your Twitter timeline on any given day, it might seem like the U.S. on the cusp of achieving bipartisan, comprehensive criminal justice reform. In reality, however, many of the reforms being proposed or enacted are relatively modest in scope. In this episode, Daniella and Ed are joined by Emily Bazelon, staff writer at the New York Times Magazine, and Rachel Barkow, professor at the New York University School of Law, who have both authored new books exploring system-upending ways to end the cycle of mass incarceration. Bazelon and Barkow consider the role of the prosecutor in these reforms as well as ways to insulate justice reform from political influence or populist whims.