0:14

Hello again. This is Thinking

0:16

Transportation, a podcast

0:19

about how we get ourselves and our stuff from one

0:22

place to another, and all the

0:24

implications of what happens in

0:26

between those places. I'm your

0:28

host, Bernie Fette, editor-at-large at the Texas

0:31

A&M Transportation Institute.

0:33

And today, I'm delighted to be

0:35

visiting with my boss. Greg

0:38

Winfree is the agency director here at TTI.

0:41

He's also a former U.S. assistant secretary

0:44

of transportation. Having

0:46

worked in those very different, but closely

0:48

related fields -- the world of public policy

0:50

and transportation and then in research -- he

0:53

probably has some unique observations

0:55

to share, especially with the

0:57

changing of the guard that we're still adjusting

0:59

to. Greg, we know you're a pretty busy

1:01

guy without a lot of spare time.

1:03

So thanks for sharing some of that with us

1:05

today.

1:05

Well, thanks so much, Bernie.

1:07

It's a great pleasure to be here with you.

1:09

By the way, happy birthday.

1:10

I appreciate that

1:12

as well. The years keep flying by.

1:14

One more trip around the sun,

1:16

and if it was on social media, it must

1:18

be true. Right?

1:19

Well, you know, that's where all of

1:21

the best information comes from.

1:24

Okay. So it's

1:27

been about four years now,

1:29

since you finished your

1:32

last gig before your current one,

1:34

when you were at USDOT, assistant

1:36

secretary of transportation. What do

1:39

you think has changed the most

1:42

in terms of transportation

1:44

policy and practice?

1:44

You know, many

1:46

things have changed; many haven't.

1:49

One thing I think that kind

1:51

of lost steam or at least

1:53

lost direction was a focus

1:55

on investment in infrastructure.

1:59

You remember in the previous administration put

2:01

out their infrastructure

2:03

plan, it had a lot of non-infrastructure

2:08

elements to it. So it wasn't a truly

2:10

dedicated infrastructure plan.

2:12

And that caused a lot of consternation in

2:14

Washington about how to get that right. And

2:17

I think the roads and bridges

2:19

aspect kind of got put on

2:22

the side burner, although they remained important.

2:25

So , uh , there's still an undercurrent

2:27

of an effort to resuscitate

2:29

that in Washington, I remain

2:32

hopeful that we'll see some legislation

2:34

coming out of Washington that puts

2:36

significant investment into transportation

2:38

infrastructure. 'Cause I think that

2:41

really is an area that is in need

2:43

of attention. What, with the

2:45

declining revenues being generated by

2:47

the highway trust fund from the gas tax,

2:50

et cetera. Another area

2:52

that has changed dramatically at

2:54

the department of transportation has to do

2:56

with connected vehicle technologies.

2:59

When I was in Washington, connected vehicles

3:02

were the technologies that allowed

3:04

vehicles to talk to one another so

3:06

that you had better situational awareness

3:09

in order to avoid crashes

3:11

and conflict between vehicles, as

3:14

well as getting a convenience and

3:15

road weather advanced

3:18

warnings or advanced notice.

3:20

But the radio frequency allocation

3:23

from the FCC that was allotted to

3:25

allow for connected vehicle technologies

3:29

has been under threat largely

3:31

since 2014, when

3:33

Google came out with the self-driving car

3:36

and had statements that they wouldn't need

3:38

to rely upon connected vehicle technologies;

3:41

that their rolling computer would have all of the

3:43

answers in every driving

3:45

scenario. As the years went

3:48

on, self-driving technology

3:50

developers realized that having the

3:52

ability to be connected with others in

3:54

the flow of transportation where

3:57

in traffic would be of benefit. It was

3:59

a sensor that they could add that would improve

4:02

the operational capabilities of their vehicles.

4:05

So that argument went away.

4:07

But the threats against the

4:10

spectrum that had been allocated continued

4:13

as the Wi-Fi industry were

4:16

seeking more real estate

4:18

on the radio frequency spectrum,

4:20

so that they could have a contiguous

4:23

pathway for the throughput of

4:25

data that wireless devices

4:28

utilize and capitalize

4:30

upon. So literally, they

4:32

wanted you to get your Hulu faster. They wanted

4:34

you to get your Netflix faster.

4:37

When I was at DOT, we used to say, we don't

4:39

want people being entertained to death,

4:42

but that's where we are. It remains

4:44

a contentious issue in Washington

4:47

and it looks as if you're figuring

4:49

out which horse is winning the race thus

4:51

far, I would say it's certainly leaning

4:53

toward Wi - Fi getting

4:56

their wishes and getting 45

4:58

of the 75 megahertz

5:01

that had been allocated to transportation

5:03

safety.

5:04

Okay. On the other side of that coin,

5:06

does anything come to mind in terms

5:09

of what seems to have not changed

5:11

at all since you were there?

5:12

So things that haven't changed--I

5:15

would certainly say the mission

5:17

of the department remains strong.

5:20

A way to think about particularly

5:22

DOT is

5:24

there is a strong cadre of

5:27

career employees, and

5:29

those are the folks who

5:31

by definition spend their careers

5:34

at agencies like DOT, but

5:36

they're also the custodians of the corporate

5:39

history and knowledge and

5:41

the ability to pass that information

5:43

from generation to generation.

5:46

And then you have the political appointees

5:48

who come in almost episodically,

5:50

they're attached to an administration.

5:53

So they're going to be there at

5:55

a max eight years. So

5:58

they're the ones who need to rely upon the expertise

6:02

that the career staff has

6:04

built. So the mission that's

6:06

carried forward by the career

6:09

folks that at USDOT remains

6:12

the same. They remain committed to

6:15

what they do to ensure

6:17

the safest and most efficient transportation

6:21

systems for the American traveling public.

6:23

So certainly that mission

6:25

and that dedication for the organizational

6:28

mission hasn't changed.

6:29

What hasn't changed, it sounds like, is the

6:31

stability of the organization

6:33

in general.

6:34

I would say that that's a definite yes.

6:37

You do get some when

6:39

the political appointees come on board,

6:41

they of course are aligned with the

6:43

priorities of the administration. So there'll be some

6:46

tweaking around the edges,

6:48

but it's fair to say that the mission

6:51

of Federal Highways is

6:53

well-defined, the mission of FAA, the

6:55

mission of the Maritime Administration,

6:57

Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration,

7:00

NHTSA -- those mission

7:03

areas have been well-defined and

7:05

are the province of those operating

7:08

administrations.

7:09

So it sounds like we can at least count on

7:11

some measure of continuity.

7:12

Absolutely.

7:12

Fair to

7:14

say?

7:14

For sure.

7:15

When I was getting ready

7:17

for our conversation today, Greg, I did just

7:19

a little bit of online searching and noticed

7:21

that first time that we had the

7:24

appointment of a secretary of transportation

7:26

was in 1967. And

7:28

since then, the department's been

7:30

led by a fairly diverse

7:33

collection of people--both men and women,

7:35

African-American, Asian, Hispanic,

7:37

Japanese heritage, and

7:40

now the first LGBT American.

7:43

And I'm just wondering, does that distinction

7:45

tell us anything? Is diversity

7:48

somehow more relevant

7:50

in the context of transportation?

7:51

You know , that's

7:53

a keen observation and

7:55

a great question. You know, you've probably heard me

7:58

say out on the speaking

8:00

circuit, that transportation

8:02

is the circulatory system

8:04

of, really, our economy

8:06

and our American way of life. And

8:08

it, you know, much like the

8:11

circulatory system in the human body, if

8:13

you get an occlusion

8:15

on any particular artery,

8:18

you have a problem, right? So these

8:21

are issues that hit the American

8:23

public at all levels, regardless

8:26

of if you're a personal

8:28

vehicle owner or if you're

8:30

a transit rider, these issues

8:32

matter. And these are literally

8:35

where the rubber hits the road. Now, when

8:37

I worked at DOT

8:39

, Deputy Secretary John

8:41

Porcari, he used to always say, there

8:43

are no Republican or Democratic potholes.

8:45

People call their

8:47

legislator's office; they

8:50

want solutions. They want them now. And

8:52

those are the kinds of low-hanging fruit that

8:55

politicians should be able or expected

8:58

to deliver on. Right? So

9:00

these are fundamental

9:02

matters for the movement of people,

9:04

data and goods in the U.S.

9:07

And there's no particular group

9:09

that owns it any greater than

9:12

any other. So since that's the case,

9:15

and since the need to connect with

9:17

constituents and constituencies around

9:19

the country, on these issues, you

9:22

need to be reflective of

9:24

who you're representing in this moment , most

9:26

fundamental of agencies. So I think

9:28

that's why you see such a widespread

9:32

talent that has led the department.

9:34

To a person, they're all recognized

9:36

as motivational leaders. They may

9:39

not be transportation experts. They will be

9:41

by the time they leave. But more

9:43

importantly, they're able to coalition-build,

9:46

not just internally at DOT,

9:49

but across government with organizations

9:52

like TRB and ITS America

9:54

and ITE. So it really is

9:57

almost a pastoral kind

9:59

of leadership approach to the department

10:01

and its mission and its

10:03

ability to bring parties

10:05

together for a common goal and common good.

10:07

And I know we're

10:09

talking about things at the federal level, but it sounds

10:12

like what you're saying can easily be applied

10:14

to state, local in the context

10:16

of transportation, too, right?

10:18

It can, but state and local

10:20

tends to get a bit more targeted

10:23

or there may be issues

10:25

that are important to

10:28

the state that have not migrated

10:30

to the federal level, or maybe even anathema to

10:33

the federal level. You know,

10:35

some of the pushback on

10:37

bike and ped access

10:39

and complete streets thinking, you

10:42

hear some criticisms. I even testified

10:45

before the [Texas] Senate yesterday and received a question

10:48

about whether or not there has been any

10:50

analysis into the

10:52

cost-benefit ratio

10:55

of Toward Zero Deaths. There was a recognition

10:57

that it started as a federal initiative

11:00

that migrated down to the states. And

11:02

there was a question that while we certainly

11:05

don't want anyone to die on our roadways,

11:07

at what economic expense is

11:10

this being undertaken? So

11:12

again, it depends on the state. Depends

11:14

on the legislatures . It depends on what their constituents

11:18

are feeding back. So ... so the perspectives

11:20

of the individual states

11:23

will reflect their individual

11:25

realities.

11:26

What about diversity in

11:28

terms of transportation? Wondering

11:31

about your thoughts on what that

11:33

topic has come to mean, what it's

11:35

come to encompass since the days

11:38

when transportation was basically highway only,

11:40

and maybe how you see that evolution unfolding

11:43

more in the years ahead.

11:45

Well, it's probably a two-part

11:48

answer to that question. The

11:50

first part would be, there

11:52

is more of a focus

11:54

in transportation decision-making

11:57

impacting disadvantaged

11:59

or minority communities. There's

12:02

a great book called The Big Roads that

12:04

talks about how highway

12:07

interstate placement decisions were made

12:09

back in the Fifties when

12:12

you literally had interstates going through the

12:14

middle of Black and Brown neighborhoods, and

12:16

bisecting them with no way to get from one

12:19

side to the other; these are communities that

12:21

have been historic. So it caused

12:23

community collapse . So you're hearing

12:25

more about equity in transportation

12:28

now, and it's important that that conversation

12:30

is going on, and not just from the infrastructure-building perspective,

12:34

but as we look at the rollout of

12:37

advanced technologies to

12:39

improve mobility, because really

12:41

that's what the term is nowadays. Transportation

12:44

is a bit of an anachronism that focuses on

12:46

the 10 operating administrations,

12:49

but it is a seamless as

12:52

possible , cohesive system

12:55

of systems, and they all interconnect

12:57

and interrelate . So that's

12:59

why it's now one that focuses on mobility.

13:01

But looking at mobility, particularly

13:03

with respect to electrification

13:06

and personal mobility vehicles

13:08

being more available and

13:11

the shared economy, the equity questions

13:13

become well, why is

13:15

Uber circulating in the more

13:18

affluent neighborhood and difficult to

13:20

get service in disadvantaged

13:23

communities? You know, who's making the

13:25

decisions on where

13:27

bike share goes or scooter share?

13:29

You know, who's paying attention to the unique

13:31

issues in urban environments

13:34

with respect to accommodating pedestrians

13:37

and bikes. And how does that work in

13:40

disadvantaged communities and those sorts of things.

13:42

How do ... how do you improve transit service

13:44

for those that don't have the ability

13:47

or the means or the wherewithal to have

13:49

their own vehicles to get back and forth and

13:51

to and fro to work and grocery, et cetera.

13:54

So from a diversity perspective on

13:56

how transportation impacts communities,

13:59

that's a conversation that has grown

14:02

significantly over time

14:04

with respect to the diversity of the mix

14:07

of operating administration

14:09

thought ... that's a great question because

14:12

there was a challenge, certainly when

14:14

I was at DOT of where

14:16

does bike/ped fall? Is that a NHTSA

14:18

responsibility? Is that a Federal Highways responsibility?

14:22

Do we need to create a new office that

14:24

focuses on personal mobility

14:27

in light mobility for short-distance

14:30

travel ? So we looked at, you know, since it was the highway,

14:32

only years, a lot has

14:35

moved around. Although the docket

14:36

at DOT hasn't changed,

14:38

the issues with Federal Motor Carrier and

14:40

NHTSA haven't changed; organizations have

14:43

been created to specially

14:45

focus on those that were born

14:47

out of Federal Highway's mission as it

14:49

became more specialized. So I think

14:51

we'll continue to see that. Where you're going to need

14:54

to figure out ... where does low-altitude

14:57

transportation fit? Is it within the

15:00

FAA mission, or is there a need

15:02

for a separate focus?

15:04

And when you say low-elevation, you're

15:07

talking about unmanned vehicles,

15:09

drones?

15:10

Yes, drones. Delivery drones.

15:12

And even the people-mover drones

15:15

that companies like Uber Elevate

15:18

and others are exploring

15:20

from an FAA perspective. You know, they

15:22

control access to the national

15:25

airspace of course, in partnership with

15:27

the military, but national airspace

15:30

starts at about 500 feet. So

15:32

from 499 down, who's

15:35

really responsible for that? There's

15:37

going to be a need for a complex

15:39

traffic management system . You know , what's that

15:42

gonna look like to have four- dimensional traffic

15:45

management? So those are challenges

15:47

that are near-term as we start

15:49

to look at Amazon and others chomping

15:52

at the bit to get drone deliveries,

15:54

right? Others looking at how do I move

15:56

people from point A to point B in

15:58

that same airspace, along with general

16:01

aviation that already operates there

16:03

along with medevac helicopters,

16:05

news helicopters, you

16:07

know ... there's a lot of activity already

16:10

in the 499 feet

16:12

and down space, and

16:14

it needs to be deconflicted before

16:17

you turn on the switch and allow access

16:19

to , you know, what otherwise looks

16:21

like just open sky.

16:22

We've come a pretty long way since the highway-only

16:25

days, right?

16:25

We have.

16:26

You mentioned a little

16:28

while ago, how there's no such thing

16:30

as a partisan pothole.

16:33

Mm-hmm.

16:33

Of course, depending on who you talk to, some people

16:36

believe--a lot of people believe--that our

16:38

nation has become very divided.

16:40

Mm-hmm.

16:42

So, I'm wondering to what extent, if any,

16:44

can transportation be one of those rare

16:47

areas of public policy

16:49

that might offer a path to

16:51

common purpose and shared

16:54

aspirations?

16:56

You know, that's an interesting way to look at

16:58

it, and I would like to say that the

17:00

answer is, yes, it would

17:02

be kind of a load stone where

17:04

those ideas could carry

17:07

forward. But I think the truth of

17:09

the matter is, Issues

17:11

in and around transportation that have

17:13

common goal, common purpose are

17:15

going to be limited to that realm.

17:17

And issues that fall

17:19

in other areas or with under

17:23

other agencies that have

17:25

historically or recently been contentious

17:27

will remain so. So it's a

17:30

bit disappointing to have to admit that,

17:32

but I really think that's where

17:35

this will fall out. And there's not

17:37

always unanimity in the execution

17:39

of the transportation mission. You know, there's

17:41

still a lot of not-in-my-backyard. There's

17:44

still a lot of , what are the

17:47

environmental impacts for

17:49

decisions that are made? Don't

17:52

get me wrong; there is still controversy in

17:54

how the transportation mission is executed,

17:57

but more often than not , there's

17:59

commonality because the

18:01

constituents and their legislators

18:04

understand that getting from point A

18:06

to point B is extraordinarily

18:08

important. And in order to accommodate

18:10

that, you know , we need to shake hands across

18:13

the aisle and move the agenda forward.

18:16

The American Society of Civil

18:18

Engineers report card on America's

18:21

infrastructure came out recently.

18:22

Now and then,

18:24

we have a big wake-up call

18:26

when it comes to transportation infrastructure

18:29

like we had when the I-35 bridge

18:31

collapsed in Minnesota 13 years

18:33

ago. When you look at our current

18:36

conditions and the trends related

18:38

to America's transportation infrastructure,

18:41

is there anything that keeps you up at night?

18:43

You know, state of good repair writ large

18:46

remains problematic. So

18:48

the grade won't fluctuate

18:50

much. Y'all will

18:52

remember this from when you were in formative

18:54

school. One teacher's B may be

18:57

another teacher's D. So, so

18:59

we're failing our nation.

19:02

We're failing to keep

19:04

up the basic infrastructure

19:06

that was put in in the fifties that's already

19:09

over-taxed to keep it in a state

19:11

of good repair. So in I-35

19:15

is a catastrophic

19:17

event. It's what happens

19:19

when the dollars and

19:22

cents aren't allocated for

19:24

routine maintenance. You know, you don't get to

19:26

the catastrophic problems unless routine

19:28

maintenance has been overlooked.

19:31

So the problems that we're seeing

19:33

only get worse over time, and now we're four more

19:36

years in without a significant infusion

19:39

of cash to focus on it, or

19:41

a significant technological improvement.

19:43

So it's ... it's a big problem.

19:45

And it's a big problem in a

19:47

suite of big problems.

19:50

Right.

19:50

Especially considering

19:52

being a little over a year into a

19:54

pandemic, for instance.

19:56

That's right. But if anything keeps

19:58

me up at night, it's the fact that

20:00

the system, top to bottom,

20:02

has not received the attention

20:04

that it needs--not deserves--that it

20:06

needs over time . And

20:09

those underlying issues are only getting worse.

20:12

My last question for you though,

20:15

I have to preface by telling listeners

20:17

that Greg is somebody who appreciates

20:20

motorcycle riding, and he also

20:22

appreciates his Chihuahua.

20:25

For sure.

20:25

Yeah. Who is named Maya. Shortly

20:28

after Greg came to work at TTI, I saw

20:30

a delightful photo of him on

20:32

his motorcycle with a sling over his shoulders

20:36

that has a pouch just big enough

20:38

for Maya to fit into. That

20:42

photo of you, Greg -- your hog and your dog...

20:43

Yeah, that's right.

20:46

Yeah, made me think of how transportation

20:49

it's always had an element to

20:50

it that was more than just the practical

20:52

task of showing up someplace on time

20:55

out of obligation or need.

20:58

And that's something that a lot of us have felt,

21:00

especially during a pandemic when

21:02

... when we just felt the need

21:04

to get out and about for nothing more

21:06

than that, just getting out

21:08

and about. I wonder if that's something you've thought

21:10

about and how we need to prepare

21:13

for and incorporate that element in how

21:15

we think about transportation.

21:17

Well, there's a certain tension

21:20

there. We're blessed to live in a country

21:22

where we've got significant

21:25

automotive choices that you

21:27

can align and match to

21:29

your personality as well as

21:32

the basic transportation

21:34

needs. That's not necessarily

21:36

the case in other countries around the world.

21:39

In the Eighties, when I was in college, I

21:41

lived in Budapest, Hungary, and

21:44

there was an awful Soviet car

21:46

called the Trabant. It was

21:48

a two-stroke, blue-smoke-blowing... It

21:51

looked like an Animal Cracker box with wheels.

21:54

Wow.

21:54

And you couldn't tell model

21:57

years other than vehicle

21:59

color, you probably couldn't find

22:01

your car in a lineup. So it was at least

22:03

from the spoiled American perspective,

22:05

a drab and uninviting means

22:08

of transportation. But again,

22:10

it met the basic need for

22:13

many of the citizens of

22:15

that country. So we're also blessed with

22:17

open roads, traffic

22:20

congestion not withstanding. And

22:22

then we've got the here

22:24

in Texas cultural driver

22:26

of one man, one truck. So

22:29

we have a lot of folks who have grown accustomed

22:31

to having their vehicle with their music.

22:34

So it becomes an extension of

22:37

comfort expectations. And that's

22:40

why you never really saw a significant

22:42

uptake. You heard a lot of talk about carpooling,

22:45

but other than examples,

22:47

that are somewhat scattered thinking

22:49

of Washington, D.C., with

22:52

the slug lines where people will carpool

22:54

in order to avoid sitting in a

22:56

substantial traffic around the beltway.

22:58

But those kinds of shared

23:01

experiences are rare. And I

23:03

would even point out that Uber and Lyft

23:05

started as a means of democratizing

23:07

transportation, where, Bernie, you would say,

23:10

"Hey, I'm heading to the Trader Joe's. I

23:12

live here. This is the path we have taken. Anybody

23:14

want to catch a ride and chip in for the gas?"

23:16

And presumably two or three other

23:18

folks would say, yeah, I'll join you. But

23:21

it turned into single-occupant with

23:24

a driver, but it didn't do

23:26

much to improve

23:28

traffic congestion or really encourage

23:31

true sharing in this so-called shared

23:33

economy. So all of those cultural factors

23:36

and comfort factors conspired

23:38

to keep a lot of cars on

23:40

the road. Even if we're talking about

23:42

an automated-vehicle future 20

23:44

years from now, when you can go to your dealer and

23:47

buy a self-driving car, we need

23:49

to start thinking about what incentives

23:51

can be built in so that

23:54

people will indeed "share

23:56

the ride" and cut down on roadway

23:58

congestion, and all of the attendant factors

24:01

that idling vehicles create from

24:03

a climate change perspective. So that's why

24:05

I'm saying there's a lot of impact, and we're at a tension

24:07

point where giving up

24:09

what we've grown accustomed to

24:12

and find culturally desirable

24:14

can match what the future

24:17

will dictate from a congestion management,

24:20

climate change, state

24:22

of good repair and a bunch of

24:25

other factors that transportation

24:27

is considering now, but has not yet

24:30

come up with policy solutions.

24:33

And I remember from another conversation that we

24:35

had some months ago talking

24:37

about the eventual proliferation

24:39

of self-driving cars--connected cars--and

24:42

the point that you were making was even whenever

24:44

those vehicles come to

24:47

dominate the highway landscape for us, you're still

24:49

going to have a lot of people who want to drive their '57

24:51

Chevys.

24:52

Yeah. And you know , you may recall, I used to call

24:54

it the mosh pit, when you've got '57

24:57

Chevys and cars

24:59

from the Eighties and Nineties. And so

25:02

you'll have analog cars

25:04

merging and interacting with

25:07

digital cars in , we need

25:09

to figure out a communications platform

25:11

that can de-conflict that or other

25:14

policies that can de-conflict

25:16

it. So that's why you hear things about dedicated

25:18

lanes for automated vehicles and other

25:21

travel pathways, where they can

25:23

traverse without the inattentive

25:26

human causing an issue.

25:29

Kind of brings us back to the concept of diversity.

25:30

It does.

25:32

A whole additional level of

25:34

diversity, just in terms of the mix on

25:36

the roads.

25:36

That's for sure.

25:36

Greg Winfree--agency

25:40

director at the Texas A&M Transportation

25:42

Institute. Thank you, sir. This

25:44

has been fun.

25:46

Well, it's been a great pleasure and I appreciate

25:48

the opportunity to sit and visit

25:50

and have a nice fireside chat.

25:51

Thank you, sir.

25:52

Take care, now.

25:55

In the policy and practice of transportation

25:57

in America, some things have changed

25:59

since the USDOT was established half

26:02

a century ago. Others

26:04

have remained constant, as Greg Winfree just

26:06

helped us understand. Our need for

26:09

safe and reliable transportation is

26:11

simple, and it's immutable. But

26:15

the ways in which we go about providing it are

26:17

not. Whether we're talking modal,

26:19

cultural, environmental, technological,

26:22

or some other context,

26:24

moving people and

26:26

goods--and all the data that

26:28

goes with them--is increasingly complex

26:31

and constantly evolving.

26:33

More than ever, transportation truly touches

26:37

every aspect of our lives. Thank you

26:41

for listening to Thinking Transportation. We hope

26:44

you'll subscribe and share, and we

26:47

hope you'll check in with us again next time, when

26:49

we talk with Edith Arambula-Mercado and

26:53

Charles Gurganus--both civil engineers

26:55

at TTI and experts

26:57

in transportation infrastructure--the same

27:00

infrastructure that recently got

27:02

some rather unflattering grades from

27:04

the American Society of Civil Engineers. Thinking

27:08

Transportation is a production of the Texas

27:10

A&M Transportation Institute, a

27:13

member of the Texas A&M University

27:15

System. The show is

27:17

edited and produced by Chris Pourteau.

27:20

I'm your host and writer, Bernie Fette. Thanks

27:24

again. See you next time.