0:00

A few years ago, I quit my job in

0:02

the restaurant industry to build my career

0:04

as a doula. Being a doula gives

0:06

me so much joy, but

0:08

I also need to prioritize so

0:11

I don't burn out. That flexibility of

0:13

being able to take care of others and

0:15

myself. That's when I know

0:17

I'm really thriving. US Bank

0:19

supports each step on the journey to thrive.

0:22

To learn how the bank can help you celebrate

0:24

win both big and small. Visit

0:26

WWW dot n y times

0:28

dot com slash u s bank drivers.

0:31

A

0:33

quick warning, there are curse words that are

0:35

unbeeped in today's episode of the show.

0:37

If you prefer a beeped version, you can

0:39

find that at our website. this american

0:41

life dot org.

0:43

Okay. So we're gonna try something different today.

0:46

Something we have never tried on our show.

0:48

And I got the idea for this from a conversation

0:50

that I had with Jay Young Pham. Jay

0:53

Young did a story for her show a little while

0:55

back, and she's somebody who's normally on

0:57

the radio. She's a magazine writer. And

1:00

so when time came for her to record her

1:02

script, she's had in the studio with

1:04

one of our producers, Diane Wu. who

1:06

had a read.

1:07

And, you know,

1:09

it's a weird thing to sound like relaxed

1:11

and natural while reading words off a

1:13

page. totally soundproof room

1:15

during your voice on headphones.

1:18

And Diane did with

1:20

Diane what we always do, she'd tell her, you know,

1:22

like, go back and do that a sentence a little looser

1:25

or, you know, underline this word or whatever.

1:27

And that just hit something in Jayang

1:30

in this way that doesn't usually happen.

1:33

having

1:34

a fellow Asian

1:36

American who

1:38

looks exactly like me

1:41

coach me through that

1:43

process. Hearing

1:45

exactly how much more

1:47

American she sounded

1:49

than me it made me

1:53

think anew about

1:56

my voice and the way I speak English.

1:59

Okay.

1:59

I

2:01

have a bunch of things to say to that. First

2:03

of all, this idea that

2:06

you and Diane look exactly the same.

2:08

That's racist. You

2:11

do not. Fair

2:14

point. Fair point. And then

2:16

it's interesting to me that you perceived it. Cheyenne

2:18

has thought a lot about the way that she speaks English

2:21

and the way that others do. going back to

2:23

when she was seven years old and she came to the United

2:25

States from China. This is in the nineties

2:27

and mostly white part of New Haven. And

2:30

it was just understood, she said, that

2:32

it was her job in the family. To

2:35

learn to speak perfect, accent was

2:37

English. as soon as possible.

2:39

And my mom and some of her

2:41

peers have said, oh, you have this very narrow

2:43

window in which your

2:46

tongue can

2:47

adjust the new language or not because

2:49

Chinese is so different than English.

2:51

And I really because because

2:54

I was seven or eight at the time,

2:57

I really didn't even

2:59

think of it as in the brain. I thought

3:01

about it as the rigidity of my tongue.

3:03

and I was so afraid of my tongue

3:06

literally hardening in my mouth.

3:10

Not being able to contort

3:12

to this language. And I think

3:14

it immediately becomes a

3:17

test of your ability to survive

3:20

and

3:20

thrive in this new environment?

3:23

How well you can speak without an accent?

3:25

Right.

3:25

Like I've been told, okay. Look, you're gonna be living

3:27

in water for the rest of your life. Well,

3:30

the better you can swim kind of. I

3:32

better, like, get a few different kinds of

3:34

strokes under my belt.

3:38

And

3:38

when you view that whole attitude now, like,

3:40

how do you see it?

3:43

The adult doesn't necessarily

3:46

endorse

3:47

the goal of speaking accentless

3:49

English and

3:51

the need to fit into the perfect

3:52

American ideal,

3:55

whatever that is. but

3:57

that was what my

3:59

parents

3:59

thought was necessary to

4:02

protect me in a foreign

4:03

country.

4:06

Diane

4:07

did the hard work of mastering the countless

4:09

little subtleties of pronunciation

4:12

and usage to the point where she thought she sounded

4:14

more or less like native English speak. friends,

4:17

especially white friends, told her she didn't have

4:19

an accent. And when she

4:21

herself had little twinges of, like, oh, maybe I

4:23

sound different. She shrugged it off.

4:25

is being too hard on herself.

4:26

And hearing my voice on the radio,

4:30

hearing myself speak. It

4:32

was a very rude awakening. It was embarrassing

4:35

and and

4:37

slightly mortifying.

4:39

Like, I

4:40

do sound different even

4:42

when I'm trying really, really hard not to. To

4:45

be clear, the difference that she heard, it

4:47

wasn't that she had, like, an accent. Like, you normally

4:49

think of an accent. Specifically,

4:51

what she was hearing was

4:53

over enunciation.

4:55

And

4:56

maybe I was unattuned to how much

4:58

effort there is in my most

5:01

casual speech A

5:03

huge part of how I

5:05

sound different is I'm so

5:06

afraid that if I don't make

5:09

the sound explicit, I

5:11

won't be understood.

5:12

And that process of making it explicit

5:14

is what actually makes me sound really

5:15

different. Where? I mean, as you're saying this sense. I

5:18

feel so aware of, like, how the every

5:20

final t and every final t you're

5:22

actually enunciating. Right.

5:25

That effortfulness is part

5:27

of how I speak.

5:32

Okay. So we're finally getting to the reason

5:34

that I'm telling you all this. One

5:36

night, a little while back, I ran into Jay

5:38

Young Litterman. And she

5:40

explained all this to me and told me how

5:42

since coming on her show, She was feeling

5:44

self conscious about her English in a way that

5:46

she hadn't for years. But

5:49

also, and more importantly, She

5:51

was finding herself listening to Chinese American

5:53

friends with new ears. Suddenly

5:56

she was hearing the huge variations in

5:58

cadence and speech, I can give away

6:00

that you're not a native speaker.

6:02

It would come out in

6:05

the string together of certain words

6:08

and

6:10

I became convinced that I could tell

6:12

how old someone was

6:15

when

6:15

they arrived in

6:17

his country and started speaking English

6:20

because the more fluidly they

6:23

could pronounce

6:24

certain words or

6:27

ride out a cadence,

6:30

the younger they

6:31

must have been.

6:33

when they arrived. Yeah.

6:35

Remember that you said to me that night, if

6:37

you could just hear somebody speak, you

6:39

would be able to tell them how long

6:41

they had been in this country or how old they were when

6:43

they arrived in this country? Right.

6:45

Their age of arrival. And I said to you

6:47

at the time, challenge

6:49

accepted. Do you

6:51

remember we were sitting there? I said, if

6:53

I find, let's say, three

6:55

people who moved to this country,

6:57

could we have you come on the radio? And

7:00

you would guess how old they were

7:02

when they arrived? And you could exhibit

7:04

your superpower, and we would find out

7:07

if in fact you were correct. Exactly.

7:09

And that I could hear

7:11

in their speech something

7:12

that they themselves didn't

7:14

even necessarily hear. And that's what made

7:16

it sort of

7:18

magical to me.

7:24

And so that is what we're here to do today.

7:26

Jiangyang is gonna play that game maybe

7:29

the only way she could ever find out once and for

7:31

all if indeed she can do this.

7:33

We've created an entire radio game show

7:35

for that purpose. Let me hear some

7:37

studio audience, please. And

7:41

then after doing that, we tried to figure out

7:44

other experiences that people have. that

7:46

would best be captured, not

7:48

the way we usually do it on our show, following

7:50

people around with microphones and recording

7:52

them, interviewing them, but

7:54

in game show format. So

7:56

we are very excited to bring you something we have never

7:59

heard of anybody trying, namely an

8:01

entire program of stories

8:04

done as game shows. From

8:06

WBEZ Chicago, Swiss American Life,

8:08

America Glass, Stay with

8:10

us.

8:20

That

8:20

client with great

8:21

power comes great pronounceability. Okay.

8:24

So we came up with this game to test Jiang's

8:26

claim. And topping Lowe, one of the

8:28

editors in our program. He's also Chinese American.

8:31

Got excited about the idea of volunteered to

8:33

be our Bob Barker, our Alex

8:35

Trebek for the game. and

8:37

so I

8:38

hand it off

8:40

to him.

8:44

Welcome Ladies and gentlemen, I

8:46

am COVID low, hello audience.

8:52

Welcome to a game we are calling Date

8:54

of arrival in which Giant

8:56

Fan tells you

8:58

when you immigrated to the

9:00

United States Shai Young,

9:02

welcome. How are you feeling? Are you feeling

9:04

confident?

9:04

I'm feeling a bit of

9:07

trepidation I have to admit. I was Okay.

9:09

for this. But now that the

9:11

date has arrived,

9:13

my Asian fear of

9:16

failure is kicking

9:18

in. Well, the

9:18

good news is we have great guests

9:21

lined up for you today. And if

9:23

you guessed two of them correctly, you're

9:25

gonna win our prize. which

9:27

is a brand

9:29

new car.

9:32

This only this only ups the stakes

9:34

and my anxiety. I'm

9:36

hoping that I can channel my

9:38

anxiety for success. It's

9:40

all good. I I have complete faith in

9:42

you, Jayang. Are you ready to hear

9:44

the rules? Hit me. Okay.

9:46

So each

9:47

guest is somebody who immigrated to

9:49

the United States from China at some

9:52

point in their life. and they

9:54

have been given up to three sentences to read

9:56

aloud. So each sentence

9:58

contains phrases like urban and

10:00

rural America, These

10:02

are phrases that Jayang you picked because

10:05

they can be challenging to pronounce

10:08

or their sentences that be very

10:10

familiar to someone who's lived here for years.

10:12

And at the end of each sentence, Haiyang, you get a

10:14

chance to guess at what age they came

10:16

to the US. If you

10:18

are within one year of the correct age,

10:20

we will give you the point. Does sense?

10:23

One year. I mean, that's narrow, but

10:25

yes, I accept. Okay,

10:27

great. Well, then we are gonna welcome

10:29

our first guest Lucma.

10:33

Hi, Luc. How are you? Where are you calling

10:35

in from? Hi, everyone.

10:37

I'm doing lovely. I'm calling in from San

10:39

Jose in. How forty. Just

10:41

for a point of reference for Jiang, how old

10:43

are you? Yes.

10:46

I'm a forty one. Alright.

10:48

We are gonna go ahead and have

10:50

you read sentence number one.

10:52

Alright. Here it goes. And I have

10:54

to say my my Asian

10:57

fever failure is kicking in too. Now I I feel

10:59

like I almost I have to stump. I have

11:01

the stump. So

11:06

sentence one. The

11:09

airplane flew over urban and rural

11:11

America. Jiang,

11:12

hearing sentence one, are you ready

11:14

to make a guess?

11:15

not quite not quite I think

11:18

I I need a little I think I'm

11:20

gonna need a little bit more. Alright.

11:21

Great. Here you go sentence too. Got

11:24

my hands up. They're playing my song. I

11:27

know I'm gonna be okay. Yeah.

11:29

It's a party in the USA.

11:31

Okay. Great. That's more information. I

11:35

I'm going to have to go all

11:37

the way for sentence

11:39

number three. I think

11:41

I'm gonna need as much information as

11:43

I can wrangle. Alright.

11:45

Send us number three. Peter

11:48

Piper picked a pack of pickled peppers.

11:52

Okay.

11:53

So

11:55

can I can I reach for my lifeline?

11:59

Yes. Okay. So

11:59

this is a secret lifeline that we

12:02

are gonna allow

12:03

Gion to access, which

12:06

is that Luke we are gonna ask

12:08

you to say her name. That's

12:10

all we're asking is just say her

12:12

name. Right. Sure.

12:14

that

12:15

the guy

12:16

Okay.

12:17

Carveball. Carveball. Carveball. I

12:20

don't

12:20

know if I don't know if

12:22

that helped or

12:24

confused because clearly

12:26

he is someone.

12:28

Because you don't have like an ABC

12:30

like me just mangling your left in

12:36

because

12:36

because

12:39

he obviously

12:41

can't speak Chinese because he

12:43

pronounced syllables

12:46

correctly, but also had a mastery

12:48

of the tones. but

12:49

I think I've been given all

12:51

the information that

12:56

is

12:56

permissible. And I

12:59

think I'm I have

13:01

a number in my head. Okay.

13:03

I'm

13:05

gonna go with five.

13:07

Okay? The

13:08

reasoning here is that

13:10

Luke has nailed every

13:12

single sentence. There's no

13:14

micro pause of anxiety when

13:17

he says urban

13:18

and rural America. The

13:20

double r in rural

13:23

is

13:23

so natural And

13:26

I'm almost tempted to say

13:28

that he has no accent whatsoever,

13:30

which is usually the case when

13:32

you come

13:33

before the ages of 456

13:35

Okay.

13:37

Final answer is five.

13:41

Luke,

13:47

would you like to tell us at

13:49

what age you move to the states?

13:52

Yeah. I

13:52

moved to states at thirty percent. No. I I moved to

13:54

states at one month one

13:56

month before I turned nine.

13:59

Shit. But in fact,

14:01

again, what you said about my

14:03

accent is what I think most

14:05

native speakers and other people have said,

14:07

which is there doesn't seem to be a discernible

14:09

accent. And yet somehow in my

14:11

head, I feel like there is a

14:13

difference, but I can't really

14:15

verbalize exactly what that difference is. And

14:17

the only difference I've been able to

14:21

hone in on in my head is

14:23

the sense of the ability to

14:25

drop into a kind of casual

14:27

fluid, a lighted

14:29

tone in between syllables, where

14:31

I always feel like my enunciation

14:34

or the way I speak is a it's

14:36

just ever so slightly two

14:38

percent over enunciated compared to

14:40

native speakers.

14:41

That makes a lot of sense to

14:43

me.

14:43

But having said all that, I wonder

14:45

if you can hear my accent.

14:48

So

14:48

if I were to put it on a spectrum, I

14:51

feel like the way

14:52

Tobin speaks to me is

14:55

like, native, beyond native. It is it

14:57

is the most

14:59

fluid, perfectly expected

15:02

American and I will. I have your question

15:04

on that. Yes. Right? Absolutely.

15:06

Absolutely.

15:06

It's like if he is the photonic

15:09

ideal.

15:10

Yeah. His voice,

15:12

his sound, the structure of his throat is

15:14

perfect is what we're seeing. No. No. No. It's

15:16

if we were I think if it were

15:19

aspirational, tobin has achieved that, like

15:21

-- Yes. -- that last two percent to get to

15:23

a hundred. He is Nirvana. Yes, sir. You

15:25

guys are hitting on every insecurity

15:27

I've ever had of,

15:29

like, talking to other Chinese

15:32

kids and I'm being like, oh,

15:34

wow, you are. There's nothing

15:36

there. It's absent. And she's

15:38

being like, Okay. Thanks thanks, I

15:40

guess. Right.

15:43

Well, yes. I mean, so you hear yourself

15:45

as b plus I I

15:47

mean, Asian

15:47

people. So I hear myself at a ninety seven or

15:49

a ninety eight compared to COVID's a hundred.

15:52

Okay.

15:52

Okay. Asian people. Okay. Yes. Yes.

15:54

Yeah. And for tagging for you, I I

15:58

honestly, I feel like

16:00

I would put you at, like, a

16:02

ninety four or ninety

16:05

three. Like, I think this person most

16:07

likely is an immigrant and probably an Asian

16:09

American immigrant. I

16:10

actually feel very affirmed because

16:14

part of listening to herself

16:16

is this search for And

16:17

and wondering if you hear yourself correctly,

16:20

is this question of

16:22

whether you exist in the same reality,

16:24

in the same acoustic reality as

16:26

everyone else? and -- Mhmm.

16:28

-- you gave me, like, a

16:30

ninety ninety ninety three, and I would

16:32

give myself one to ninety one. So,

16:34

like, the fact that we are both in the same

16:37

ballpark kind of affirms my

16:39

sense that, okay, I am not

16:41

crazy and I'm not

16:43

living in delusion. you are

16:45

hearing

16:46

myself more or less the

16:48

way that I hear myself. Okay.

16:50

Unfortunately, we have to move

16:52

on. Lou, thank you so much

16:54

for joining us. I'm

16:56

glad I could be of some use.

16:59

Alright.

17:01

So we are on to guests

17:04

number two in all.

17:06

So we're gonna welcome Frank. Hi, Frank.

17:08

Hi. Hi, Frank.

17:10

Frank, can I ask you to introduce

17:12

yourself? Sure. Frank,

17:14

short haul. I'm

17:15

fifty five. And

17:17

where are we reaching you, Frank? In in

17:19

the San Francisco Bay area.

17:22

Frank, could you go

17:22

ahead and read sentence number

17:25

one for us? Yep.sentence

17:28

one. The airplane flew

17:30

over, Urban, and

17:33

rural America. Jayung.

17:34

young After sentence one,

17:36

are you ready to make a guess?

17:38

ah my think

17:41

I have a sense of the ballpark,

17:43

but I would love

17:45

additional data. So I'm

17:47

gonna go on to ask

17:49

for the second sentence. Alright.

17:51

Since it's

17:52

to got my

17:54

hands up, they're playing my

17:56

song. I know I'm gonna be okay.

17:59

Yeah.

17:59

It's a party

17:59

in the USA. k. That was

18:01

sentenced to, how are we

18:04

feeling, Jayang? I

18:05

think I'm ready to make a guess. Wow.

18:07

Okay. After sentence two,

18:09

bold move. I

18:10

think that I would like to

18:13

go with nineteen.

18:14

Okay. Can you explain

18:16

your reasoning? Sure.

18:18

I could hear the

18:19

way that he really lingered on

18:24

urban and rural.

18:25

Even though he said both those words

18:28

fine, I

18:29

can hear the effort. I don't think he

18:31

came here as a child. And on

18:33

top

18:33

of that, I can detect the

18:36

hint of an English accent. And

18:39

I wonder if Frank is someone, why

18:41

there's spent time in Hong Kong, which

18:44

was formerly a British colony,

18:47

or went through an educational

18:49

system that had

18:50

British English instruction. And

18:53

then they became here as an

18:56

young adult. because I can tell that he's

18:58

absolutely fluent in the

19:00

language. Gotcha.

19:00

Okay. So nineteen final answer.

19:04

Yes.

19:05

Okay.

19:06

Here's

19:07

what I'm gonna say. Technically based on

19:09

the rules of the game, you got

19:11

it wrong. But You're

19:14

damn close. Frank

19:18

Frank came at age twenty

19:20

two. And I am very tempted

19:22

to give you the point because of

19:24

some of the reasoning you gave.

19:27

Yeah. So, like, maybe that's a place to start. Frank,

19:29

can you talk a little bit out

19:31

learning English in that

19:33

process for you?

19:35

yeah Yeah. So

19:36

when I was young, when

19:38

they decided to put English back

19:40

to the curriculum after the harsher

19:43

evolution. We

19:44

really didn't

19:45

have much material from

19:48

the

19:48

US. So anyone that

19:49

in China, my age or

19:52

above would know that's the

19:54

age of the

19:56

material from BBC.

19:59

And

19:59

so that's where I picked up

20:02

my accent. that's

20:03

interesting. And the

20:05

irony of it is that, you know, I grew up in,

20:07

you know, I was born in eighty four

20:10

and I grew up when

20:12

the only Chinese you were

20:14

supposed to speak was state mandated,

20:16

like, accentless Mandarin. Do

20:18

you remember?

20:18

Like Yeah. So you

20:20

weren't supposed to

20:21

speak any regional accent

20:23

at all. And, you know,

20:25

that's the Mandarin that I speak. Can

20:28

completely devoid of any regional

20:30

accent. I

20:31

disagree with that. Oh,

20:32

really? How so? Because

20:34

in my effort to look up

20:37

Cheyung videos,

20:39

I saw one of you in

20:42

interviewing restaurants in

20:45

Chinatown? Yes. So in

20:47

my view, you have lesser of

20:49

an accent in English than your

20:51

accent in Chinese. Well,

20:54

this is a

20:55

this is a plot twist

20:57

What do you mean? What do you hear in

20:59

my Chinese? For in

21:01

for instance, the the duchot

21:03

shirt -- Uh-huh. -- distinction

21:06

you don't

21:06

really try to make that clear.

21:09

Wow. Oh, wow.

21:11

Yes. But you don't hear like an American

21:13

accent in my Chinese

21:14

Right. Right. Right. Right. Not an American accent, but

21:17

a southern. Right. Right.

21:19

Yes.

21:19

Few. Few, Frank, because if

21:21

you're gonna accuse me of having an

21:24

American accent, in

21:24

Chinese, that was

21:25

really gonna throw me for a loop. And

21:27

on that

21:28

note, thank you

21:30

so much,

21:30

Frank. What's real pleasure

21:33

chatting? Thank

21:34

guys

21:36

you guys.

21:41

We

21:41

are ready for our next guest.

21:43

Please welcome Larissa.

21:45

Hi, Larissa. Hi, Larissa.

21:47

Yeah.

21:48

My name is Larissa

21:50

Joe. I'm thirty five.

21:52

No. Wait. Am I thirty five?

21:54

I'm thirty four.

21:59

Okay. Okay. So

22:02

we are ready to jump in. Larissa,

22:04

if you would, could you read sentence

22:06

number one? The

22:08

airplane flew over urban

22:10

over rural America.

22:13

Mhmm.

22:13

Okay. Definitely gonna need the second sentence, Tobin.

22:16

Loretta, can

22:16

you read sentence number two?

22:18

Got my hands

22:18

up. They were playing my song. I know

22:21

I'm gonna be okay. Yeah. It's a

22:23

party in the USA. k.

22:25

That's sentence two. Yes. And I'm gonna

22:27

go for sentence number three

22:29

as well. Peter

22:31

Piper picked a pack of pickled peppers.

22:35

Okay.

22:35

I

22:37

think

22:37

I'm gonna go for ten.

22:39

Okay. I'm thinking

22:41

how loud. I think this one is a bit

22:43

challenging. Here's

22:44

what I'll offer. Would you like

22:47

to talk to Larissa a little bit

22:49

more before locking in your

22:51

answer? Yes. Yes.

22:54

Some mercy. Okay. Well, so can

22:56

I prompt then, Marissa,

22:58

the last time we talked, you told a

23:00

story about volunteering

23:02

for a local library at at some

23:04

point. Could you tell that story? I

23:08

was

23:08

volunteering to

23:12

become an audiobook

23:13

recorder at the Washington

23:16

Talking

23:16

Book and Braille Library. This

23:18

was I lived in

23:19

Seattle And

23:21

you have

23:22

to audition for it.

23:24

You basically just

23:25

read some passages. And

23:27

later, the volunteer coordinator got back to

23:30

me. And and

23:32

they said, yeah, the

23:34

judges there

23:36

are hesitant to accept you because

23:39

they they don't

23:40

know where you're from, but they know you're not from

23:42

around here. They

23:43

don't they know you're not there.

23:45

They

23:46

can't tell where? That

23:48

was actually really helpful. Toobin,

23:50

if I may -- Yes. -- I'm

23:52

going to alter my my guests and

23:55

I will give you my explanation. I'm

23:57

going to say

23:59

i

24:02

I'm

24:03

deciding between fifteen and sixteen. I

24:05

just, like, can't quite pull the trigger. I'm

24:08

gonna go for sixteen.

24:10

Okay. Okay. You're going for sixteen. You're coming up.

24:12

Can you tell me a little

24:14

bit why? It's the way

24:16

she says the word

24:18

song. She kind of swallows

24:20

the g in a way that I

24:22

don't think a native ever

24:24

would. So it came out like

24:26

song rather than song. And

24:29

when that happened, my ears perked

24:31

up because that's exactly the way that

24:33

my mom would have said the

24:35

word song.

24:35

Okay. You

24:36

can't see that I am squirming in my

24:38

seat because unfortunately, you went

24:40

the wrong direction. No.

24:44

No. You're you're a guess of

24:46

ten years old was closer because the

24:48

actual answer was

24:50

that Larissa moved here when she was

24:53

seven. Wow. It's

24:56

so frustrating because that's the

24:58

age I came

24:59

here. And

25:05

how aware

25:07

are you of of

25:09

your accent?

25:09

I mean, do you feel like you can

25:12

hear it? I

25:15

would say until that

25:17

experience, which was maybe seven,

25:20

eight

25:20

years ago, with the recording

25:23

book, I

25:24

thought I

25:25

was camouflage. I

25:28

thought I was good. And and

25:30

when I heard that, they

25:31

could tell didn't sound like I was from

25:33

the US. I I felt, I

25:35

don't know, a little disappointed or or

25:37

a little offended. And

25:40

then I spoke to my

25:43

boyfriend at the time who is

25:45

American, who grew up in America, And

25:47

I said, what? Like, I don't have an accent. I I

25:49

speak really good

25:50

English. And he said, yes. You speak

25:52

very good English, but you don't speak

25:54

like an America. And so what do

25:56

you mean? And he said, for example,

25:59

he swerves things. He

26:02

he doesn't enunciate. Mhmm.

26:04

And you pointed this out, he says, I

26:07

enunciate everything. And

26:09

when he said that, like, was that a

26:11

moment of recognition? Or were you, like, what are you

26:13

talking about? Yeah.

26:14

That definitely makes sense. I think it

26:16

comes

26:16

from making sure I am understood

26:19

in English by my parents and other

26:21

immigrant

26:21

-- Mhmm. -- other immigrants.

26:23

walking down to understand me.

26:26

So

26:26

Right. And I

26:29

wonder if there's a

26:30

part of you wants to

26:32

have no accent at all. Like

26:35

ideally, would it be better just to be

26:37

completely accentless?

26:40

Yeah.

26:40

I, you know, for a long

26:42

time, I had, like, my experience as I

26:45

may need to ashamed of it. And now I'm just,

26:47

like, why? Like,

26:49

Why? I don't I don't want that. I'm gonna

26:50

stand up for where I come from,

26:52

the things that shaped me, the things

26:54

that even the

26:55

experiences that made me

26:58

enunciate because this is something I

27:00

did to help my community. And and

27:02

now it's really

27:03

part of me. and

27:04

yeah Yeah. No.

27:06

I I really like

27:09

your your logic there and also

27:11

kind of the

27:11

evolution of your comfort with

27:14

how you speak.

27:15

I mean, it's so

27:17

interesting to

27:18

talk to you because I

27:21

do feel like I'm talking to a version

27:23

of myself that brings up

27:25

all my

27:26

anxieties

27:28

about how I

27:30

speak. but also like my aspiration

27:32

for self acceptance. There's

27:34

something about your acceptance

27:37

of your accent

27:39

that I find, you

27:41

know, inspirational.

27:42

inspirational It

27:44

is not this race to

27:46

be accentless, the way

27:48

that, like, I fear

27:50

I have conceived

27:52

received of

27:53

my journey in

27:56

English, like I do feel self

27:58

conscious about it. Loretta,

28:00

if there was a piece of advice

28:03

for Jiang to get

28:05

to where you are. Is there something that

28:07

helped you get to where you are? Oh, that's a

28:09

great

28:10

question. Yeah.

28:11

So

28:16

I

28:16

guess I maybe I would

28:18

say So

28:19

so why do I have this accent? Why

28:21

do I speak this way? And I say, well, it's because

28:23

I lived in China

28:24

for seven years. And

28:27

I

28:27

said, well, if I don't want that accent,

28:30

the way

28:30

to not have it is to

28:33

is

28:33

to wish I hadn't lived in

28:35

China. that

28:35

and to wish that it

28:36

was being born in the states or something. And

28:38

do I

28:39

wish that? And

28:40

I said, no. I don't wish that.

28:43

So

28:43

I want

28:44

the experiences that also gave me

28:46

this side effect of the way

28:48

I speak. Mhmm.

28:49

And there are an emblem, there are like

28:51

a memory

28:53

of that. Thank

28:55

the think

28:55

you, Larissa. It it

28:57

it's you are I feel

28:59

like I'm meeting my my my

29:02

future self. The the the the person that I

29:03

would comfort with

29:06

my accent

29:06

that I would that I am

29:09

aspiring to be. So it's

29:11

been a it's been a real pleasure

29:12

to talk.

29:17

Okay.

29:20

Okay. So three

29:23

contestants. I hate

29:25

to add insult to injury, but I do have to say your

29:27

score was zero, first

29:29

lady. Maybe this is

29:31

the time I should tell you.

29:33

you will not be winning the brand new

29:36

car. But also, the

29:38

car was going to be just

29:40

a rental that we were gonna give to

29:42

you for the weekend.

29:43

You scared me

29:45

from having to wrangle

29:47

a friend into being my driver.

29:51

for the rental.

29:52

Well, Cheung, thank you for playing our

29:54

game. I I would say and see you next time, but

29:56

I think there's one that this game is impossible, and

29:58

and do

29:59

discourage it. No one should ever play this game ever

30:02

again, shut it down. Good

30:04

night, Adi, and we'll see you not

30:07

next time.

30:08

Thank

30:09

you,

30:11

COVID. Kevin

30:16

Lau

30:16

is one of the editors of our show.

30:18

Coming up, got a

30:20

simple game show. Save the world. We

30:23

find out that's in a minute.

30:25

Chicago Bubba Radio when our

30:27

program continues.

30:29

This podcast is supported by the National

30:32

Gallery of Art in Washington.

30:33

Now on view, called to

30:36

create

30:36

black artists of the American

30:38

South.

30:38

Discover how two dozen creators from

30:41

Memphis, Atlanta, G's band and

30:43

beyond. Use the materials they had

30:45

to make some of the

30:45

most powerful art of our time.

30:47

See, called to create through March twenty six

30:49

at the National Gallery of Art. More

30:52

details at NGA dot

30:54

gov. I'm

30:54

Lulu Garcia Navarro, the host

30:56

of first person from New York Times

30:59

opinion.

30:59

On the show, I talked to all sorts of

31:01

people about the experiences

31:02

that shape their

31:04

beliefs. I want to explore opinion in all of its complexity

31:06

and every opinion starts with a

31:08

story. I'm gonna ask you this because this is like

31:10

a very volatile period and you

31:13

decide to become a politician.

31:15

I

31:16

really want to understand how that happened.

31:19

The first

31:19

person from New York Times opinion, listen

31:21

to new episodes wherever you get.

31:23

new podcasts.

31:26

This

31:26

is American Life, Myer Glass. Today's program,

31:29

it's a game show. An entire

31:31

program is stories, presented not the way we

31:33

usually do, but as

31:34

game shows, radio game shows, we've

31:36

arrived to deck two of our show, and

31:38

we're calling

31:38

deck two You bet your

31:41

planet's life. That's

31:43

George

31:43

Gray, who agreed to take a little time out from his

31:45

day job is the announcer of the price is

31:47

right to help us with his next game.

31:50

And before I get to what I should

31:52

explain that this one comes from a

31:54

question that I have had myself about this

31:56

thing that I've seen in the news.

31:58

You know, the Paris Agreement on

32:00

climate change and how it has these goals that

32:02

countries are supposed to meet if we're gonna

32:04

hold the planet to less than two degrees of

32:06

warming overall. and ideally just

32:08

one point five degrees of warming.

32:10

And I've wondered for a while now, is there any

32:12

chance at all? Any

32:14

chance? that the

32:15

United States is gonna make the goals.

32:18

Like forget about the rest of the world for a minute. Just

32:20

talking about the part of this that, like,

32:22

we in this country control,

32:24

will we, as a country, one of the biggest

32:26

carbon emitters, will we make

32:28

our goal? To do that, we would have

32:30

to cut our emissions by fifty percent

32:32

by the year two thousand and thirty for

32:35

starters, that's just eight years from

32:37

now. Is there any kind of realistic path that

32:39

gets us there? Well, today's game show episode

32:41

seemed like a perfect opportunity to

32:43

finally find out. And so with

32:45

that in mind, we turned to

32:47

Our next game show.

32:49

Welcome

32:54

to you, Betcher, Planet's

32:57

Life. Is

32:57

there any chance at all ladies and

33:00

gentlemen that we will actually make our

33:02

goals and cut our

33:04

emissions to half Well, stay

33:06

tuned because today we find out

33:08

and win valuable prizes.

33:14

Thank you, George Gray for that nice intro. And why don't we bring

33:17

on today's contestant? Well,

33:19

Ira,

33:19

Caitlin from New York City and

33:21

Austin, Texas, director of research

33:23

at Columbia University's center on global

33:26

energy policy. She's modeled parts of the

33:28

climate and energy future and worked

33:30

around Noguro for the US

33:32

government. the International Energy Agency, and the Asia

33:34

Pacific Energy Research Center. Say

33:36

that three times fast. Please

33:39

welcome

33:41

Melissa. What? Come

33:43

on down. We're

33:45

welcome, Melissa, and I hope you're ready to play.

33:47

I'm

33:47

excited, Ira. Ready to go.

33:49

Now I understand that you

33:51

are a super

33:53

taster. Was there a

33:55

moment where you discovered that?

33:57

There

33:57

was a moment. I was eating

33:59

a piece of chocolate, and I went to my friend,

34:02

I think this one's from Ecuador. And

34:04

they went, how on Earth do you know that? And I said, well, it's so different than the

34:06

other one. They're like, no, it's not. They don't taste different.

34:08

And I was like, they are completely

34:12

different. and they ran off and got a bunch of different ones for me to try. It turns can

34:14

tell the difference blindfolded. Well, those are

34:16

skills that will not

34:17

aid you in our game today.

34:20

Probably not. And let me ask you to take

34:22

a look up there in the big board because in this first round, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna try to get to

34:24

fifty percent cuts and emissions

34:27

by the year twenty, thirty, or to be

34:30

very precise about this, our country's goal

34:32

for the Paris agreement is to cut

34:34

fifty to fifty

34:36

two percent of where emissions were back in the year two thousand

34:38

five. And Melissa, in each of your turns, what we're

34:40

gonna do, you will propose

34:42

a number for the amount of emissions

34:44

that you think we can cut, and then you'll

34:46

explain how you think we can cut it. If

34:48

the judge is ruled that that's credible, if

34:50

there's reasonable evidence that your proposal

34:52

could work, at the scale and

34:54

speed you say it could, you will hear this sound and it goes up on board. If the judges

34:56

think you're playing as bogus, malarkey,

34:58

impossible, you will hear this sound.

35:02

I mean, I'll take one step closer

35:04

to planetary disaster. No pressure. No pressure at all. And

35:06

George, where do we start?

35:10

Well,

35:10

Ira. Melissa's starting our game with twenty

35:13

five percent already on the

35:15

board. Oh, so George, maybe you should explain exactly

35:17

what this is about.

35:20

because this surprised me. I really didn't know this before we

35:22

all started working on this game show.

35:24

I'd love

35:25

to, Ira. Since two

35:27

thousand five, we've already reduced our

35:29

emissions around eighteen percent.

35:32

That's because of cheap wind power.

35:34

sheep solar power, cheap natural gas replacing coal, and because

35:37

states local communities, and big corporations

35:39

are making moves to lower

35:42

their emissions. But wait,

35:44

there's more. Another seven

35:46

percent or so is locked in and

35:48

ready to roll by the end of the decade.

35:50

All told, eighteen percent plus seven percent gives

35:53

you security one. Twenty

35:55

five big percentage

35:58

points. Yeah, that was

35:59

news to

35:59

me. Our emissions have been going down

36:02

ever since two thousand seven in this

36:04

country. But what that means is

36:06

we are

36:08

already halfway to our goal of fifty percent by twenty thirty

36:10

before we even start

36:11

our game. That's right, Ara.

36:13

So Melissa, your

36:14

melissa your goal goal is

36:16

to credibly get us the next twenty five percent on top of that

36:18

in just eight years.

36:19

And let's just jump in. How much do

36:21

you wanna put on the board for

36:23

your first turn? So

36:25

I'm gonna go another

36:26

fifteen percent.

36:27

Okay. Fifteen percent? And how are you gonna

36:29

get that fifteen percent? So I think that

36:32

president

36:32

Biden's big climate and energy law

36:34

is going back get us all the way to that fifteen percent

36:37

Is that true? It'll

36:38

get us that much. Yeah, so it's called the

36:40

Inflation Reduction Act, but really it's the biggest

36:42

energy and climate legislation we've ever passed.

36:45

It's massive. And so how to

36:46

do that? So it's a whole

36:47

host of different things. It's tax credit

36:50

supporting clean electricity. So I'm talking about

36:52

solar and wind

36:54

and nuclear. all the stuff we need to produce zero carbon electricity.

36:56

And then it gives us a lot of tax credits to

36:58

bring a lot of electric vehicles on

37:00

the road. There's tax

37:01

credits for businesses to help them insulate

37:03

their buildings, let's say. So they can use less

37:05

energy in the first place. Mhmm. And there's tax

37:07

credits for capturing carbon before it actually goes

37:10

into the atmosphere. sphere when we're making stuff like concrete and cement. Is

37:12

concrete and cement actually like kind

37:13

of a big deal? Yeah. It's

37:15

huge. It's really

37:18

huge. because you're saying that all these things they'll add up and these things

37:20

together get us to fifteen percent

37:22

of our goals under the Paris

37:24

that goes under the paris agreement agreement. So

37:26

some people are saying ten, some are saying twenty. I'm

37:28

good with fifteen, right in

37:30

the middle. Alright. Let's turn to our judges

37:32

and see what they

37:34

say. Oh, Ira,

37:35

the judges say?

37:40

Yes. So

37:42

George,

37:42

what's Melissa's score? Well, Ira, the

37:44

main board is at forty percent. Which

37:47

means she needs another ten

37:49

percent to reach our goal of

37:51

fifty percent. A mission's

37:54

cut. Okay. So so

37:56

now it

37:57

is your second turn, Melissa.

37:59

In your

37:59

second turn, how

38:01

much do you wanna put

38:03

on the board? I think

38:05

I'm gonna go for it and put

38:07

up a whole ten

38:09

percent. I'm gonna go all the

38:11

way to fifty percent. Okay. Alright.

38:13

Going all the way. Dearing. What

38:16

do you got?

38:17

Okay. So I should say right off the bat

38:19

that what I have is a whole hodgepodge of

38:21

stuff. Okay. So it's a lot of different

38:23

things. Okay. And so what I'm looking

38:25

at doing is saying where do we already have

38:28

momentum? Where are we already moving? And we just

38:30

need to move a little bit faster.

38:32

So squeeze a cup more percentage

38:34

points out of the things that

38:34

are already working for us. Okay. Which means

38:37

what?

38:37

So this means three buckets to

38:39

me. So the first one is

38:41

electricity. So it's doing all the stuff that's in the

38:43

Inflation Reduction Act, but pushing it further,

38:45

building more solar, more wind,

38:47

more nuclear, storing more

38:49

electricity. Okay. bucket two?

38:51

So bucket two is about working

38:53

with just a few big industries. So

38:55

the ones that produce a lot

38:57

of greenhouse gases. How do

38:59

we work with them to get their emissions down really

39:02

quickly? So

39:02

for example. Steel is

39:03

a good example. And we make steel with coal

39:06

today, but we can make it

39:08

with electricity. So let's do

39:10

that.

39:10

Okay. Bucket

39:11

three. So bucket three, I'm thinking about

39:14

waste. So there's two big things that I

39:16

want us to stop wasting and that would get us a

39:18

few more percentage points. So the first part of

39:20

this is about reducing greenhouse gas emissions

39:22

that we just are throwing in the atmosphere. We're just

39:24

wasting them. The big one here

39:26

is methane. So it's fixing leaky pipes. It's about plugging

39:28

abandoned oil and gas wells, stopping putting

39:30

it methane into the atmosphere. And the

39:32

second kind

39:32

and a second kind The second kind of

39:34

waste is the waste we have when it comes

39:36

to zero carbon electricity. So we've

39:38

already built a lot of wind turbines, a

39:40

lot of nuclear power plants, a lot of

39:43

solar panels and we're not using

39:45

all of that at zero carbon electricity.

39:47

We're

39:47

just wasting a lot

39:49

of it. Like, why? there's

39:51

a bunch of different reasons, but it comes down to

39:53

supply and demand not matching up. Is this a thing

39:55

of like of like like

39:56

the solar energy gets made, but

40:00

But there's no way to store it and there's no way to get it to the homes where it's

40:02

needed. Is that what you mean? Mhmm.

40:04

Yep. And that's like, it's

40:06

such

40:06

a waste, Ira. It's like, We

40:09

already paid for it. It's already there. And we're

40:11

not using it. And so to fix

40:13

that, what do we do? So to

40:15

fix that,

40:15

we build a lot of wires to move

40:17

this stuff around. And then we also

40:19

figure out ways to store that electricity. Okay. So between those three buckets you're

40:22

saying that

40:22

adds up to ten percent, can I

40:25

ask you, like, like, in the most real

40:27

way possible, like, do you think that's actually gonna

40:30

happen? Are we actually gonna get to

40:32

fifty percent? by

40:34

two thousand and

40:36

thirty? I think we're going to get

40:37

close. I don't know

40:40

if we're going to

40:41

get all the way there. I

40:43

mean, we could overshoot it. Honestly, there's a

40:45

lot of different factors that go into

40:47

that, including behavior, including, you

40:49

know, broader things that are happening in the world

40:51

that I have no insight get into. What's gonna keep

40:53

us from maybe getting there as fast as we

40:55

want is all the nontechnical stuff.

40:58

So being able to actually build something, get

41:00

it permitted.

41:02

get it paid for in our markets. I think it's

41:05

gonna

41:05

be close. I don't know if we're gonna

41:07

get over the fifty percent line

41:09

in time, though. Alright.

41:12

Well, judges, what

41:13

do you think? Oh, wait. Oh,

41:15

wait. Is this coming

41:16

in? The judges

41:18

say

41:22

Yes. Well,

41:23

congratulations, Melissa. We're winning round

41:25

one. Thank you, Eric. Thank you,

41:27

George. I appreciate it. But

41:29

remember, this is only round one. There's

41:32

another round after this. Well,

41:33

exactly what executive is gonna say, you

41:35

progress to our bonus round. Let's talk

41:37

that next round. Right? because the first goal that America set

41:39

for itself with the Paris agreement is to cut

41:41

fifty percent of our emissions by twenty thirty, but

41:43

the bigger goal is to cut

41:45

all greenhouse gases. as far as

41:48

possible, to get to net zero by

41:50

twenty fifty. In your

41:52

view, like, is there a credible path towards

41:54

that that you can imagine actually happening?

41:56

There's definitely a credible

41:57

path. I think there

42:00

is, but like with the next

42:02

eight years, it's gonna be

42:04

challenging and it requires us to make

42:06

a choice to get on that path.

42:08

And a

42:08

lot of it is just doing a lot more

42:10

of what we've already been talking about,

42:12

not just making more buildings more

42:15

energy efficient. We're making every single building

42:17

more energy efficient. We're electrifying those buildings. We're

42:19

pulling all the emissions out of those buildings.

42:21

We're getting every single car in track and

42:24

bus and plane zero emissions.

42:26

Every single thing in our transportation.

42:28

When you said

42:28

it this way, it just seems like

42:30

so big. It's a hard to fathom that that could actually happen.

42:32

Howard Bauchner: I mean, it's

42:34

massive. Like, it

42:35

is massive. It

42:37

is a huge huge

42:40

undertaking. Some people describe

42:42

it as like a wartime effort. I think that's right.

42:44

Like, it's it's massive to

42:46

do this. over the next just few decades. We're

42:49

talking about twenty fifty. That's not that long

42:51

from now. But that

42:52

makes me feel like not so super

42:54

hopeful just to say. But if

42:56

we don't actually get there, we know the costs of

42:59

inaction of not moving there

43:01

and they're not pretty. So

43:03

I'm

43:03

talking about extreme events that flood

43:06

Houston or, you know, swinging across

43:08

Florida heat waves in Southern

43:10

California that lead to

43:12

people dying. when you start to

43:14

add up all these health costs and also the insurance costs, the cost of rebuilding

43:16

homes. It's so much larger than

43:18

building solar panels and nuclear power

43:22

plants and retrofitting buildings and replacing cars?

43:25

Well, listen, thank you

43:26

so much for playing our game.

43:30

Let's

43:30

bring in some inappropriately cheerful game show

43:34

music. And George tell her what she's

43:36

won. Well, Melissa,

43:38

how about

43:39

a brand new SUV.

43:43

Oh. Two plane

43:46

tickets too.

43:48

A subscription to Diesel and Steak

43:51

lovers magazine. What else

43:53

he got there by Well,

43:56

Melissa, this is perfect. How

43:58

about autograph copies

43:59

of the collected works

44:01

of Bill McKean them. That's not like

44:04

it. Listen. Thanks

44:06

again, Melissa.

44:07

And George, take

44:10

it away. Thanks so

44:12

much, everybody. And we'll see you next

44:14

time. If we're not all

44:16

fleeing a wildfire

44:18

or hurricane, on. You bet your

44:20

planet's

44:20

life.

44:24

Actually,

44:27

i agree didn't

44:28

hear it from me. No, really.

44:30

You didn't. This last dom game actually happened

44:32

on another show, a podcast called Normal

44:36

Gossip. And if you haven't heard normal gossip, the way it works, people on show

44:38

basically dish about actual gossip.

44:40

Like, true stories about normal

44:42

everyday people sent in by listeners.

44:46

And last season, the producers recreated a version of,

44:48

you know, that old game telephone or somebody,

44:50

like, whisper something to the person next to

44:52

them who whispers it to the person

44:55

next to them and on down the line. One of

44:57

our producers, Sean Cole, has this

44:59

rundown of what happened when they did a

45:01

version of that on normal gossip.

45:03

and how it revealed some interesting things about the stories that we

45:05

tell each other. Here,

45:07

Sean. The folks

45:08

at normal gossip, they created

45:10

the game for a very practical reason.

45:13

While they

45:13

were gearing up for season two, they got to

45:15

talking about how long it had taken during

45:17

season one for the guests to relax

45:20

and settle into

45:22

the conversation. And

45:22

so we we were having this brainstorming session where we were talking

45:24

about ways that we could just give

45:26

them some more time and space ahead of

45:28

the recording to loosen up.

45:31

This is the producer of normal gossip. Alex

45:33

Sujang Lofland. And

45:36

I came up with this idea that, like,

45:38

what if we had them play a game?

45:40

that is a game of gossip. Gossip itself of course is

45:42

sort of like a game of telephone. So

45:44

they figured, let's

45:45

just do that. Alex

45:47

grabbed

45:47

one of the gossip stories from their inbox

45:50

and read it to the first guest that they

45:52

had and then recorded her telling

45:54

it right back just whatever that

45:56

person could remember. Play that

45:58

for the second guest, have them tell

45:59

it back, and so on. I told

46:01

them not to take

46:04

notes because you don't generally

46:06

take notes when somebody's telling you a gossip story. Right? Like, you're not

46:07

like Unless you're a gossip columnist, I

46:10

suppose. Yeah. Exactly.

46:11

Unless you're me.

46:13

So,

46:15

yeah, I said you know, do

46:17

the best you can. If you don't remember something, that's fine.

46:19

If you feel like tweaking

46:21

a detail for fun,

46:24

you can. But for

46:25

the most part, try and be pretty faithful to the

46:28

story you heard. Alex didn't really expect

46:30

anything interesting to happen,

46:32

but then When she listened through

46:34

to all the versions, she

46:36

realized she was seeing in real time

46:38

how gossip works, how a story

46:40

can evolve and change, that there was

46:42

a logic to how it changed.

46:44

Sure there was some willy nilly embellishing

46:46

here and there, but for the most part, the changes

46:48

were for a very

46:50

specific reason. and I'm gonna get to that. But first,

46:52

you need to hear the original version of the story

46:54

so that you can appreciate when we get

46:56

there how different it was by the end of

46:58

the game.

47:00

Yes.

47:00

I have the text

47:01

here. I asked Alex to read it to

47:03

me.

47:03

I should say, with every gossip story they

47:05

tell on the

47:08

show, the names and all the identifying details are changed, so it's completely

47:10

anonymized. This story concerns

47:12

two people who they called Kyle

47:16

and Elliot. I

47:17

started dating sometime before the pandemic. Kyle had grown up super religious

47:19

and

47:19

had been married to a woman,

47:21

but he came out, left his family,

47:23

left the church, and

47:26

moved to the city where he met Elliott. And

47:28

Elliott's really the main character of the story.

47:30

You need to know that he's part of this active

47:32

group chat with some college friends

47:35

where they talk about their lives. Everyone in

47:36

the group chat was obsessed with

47:39

Kyle. He was so warm,

47:42

genuine, thoughtful. They move in

47:44

together, adopt a cat, and are

47:46

teaching it all kinds of

47:48

tricks. Then Elliott proposes

47:50

and Kyle proposes back. It's so adorable.

47:53

The pandemic hits and the

47:55

group chat starts doing zooms as

47:57

you do. Usually significant others pop

47:59

in and say, hi, and

48:01

they all love to see Kyle. Around

48:04

June, Elliott mentions that he's

48:06

going home for a bit, doesn't

48:08

mention Kyle. A few weeks

48:10

later, the group zooms and Kyle doesn't

48:12

show up. They ask where he

48:14

is. Elliott says, I didn't want

48:16

to bring this up yet, but Kyle has actually

48:18

left me. Turns out

48:20

Kyle just packed up and

48:23

disappeared. Left a cat No

48:26

explanation ghosted his fiance.

48:28

He disappeared off social media

48:30

and nobody knows where he went.

48:32

Elliot is crushed.

48:37

So fast forward a

48:39

year later, a friend of a

48:42

friend is scrolling TikTok and suddenly they see a

48:44

viral video with Kyle.

48:46

Turns out Kyle has

48:48

reinvented himself on TikTok in

48:52

the last year. He's suddenly super religious, but

48:54

also still very much

48:56

queer. He seems to spend

48:58

his videos making a

49:00

lot of references to leaving a

49:02

toxic relationship and loving

49:04

yourself. Our friend of a

49:06

friend is like, what

49:08

the fuck? Kyle has like millions of views, tons of

49:10

followers. Now we've tracked

49:12

him down, but he's obviously

49:14

obliquely talking shit about Elliot.

49:18

What

49:18

do you do? Do you you tell Elliott? It ends

49:20

with sort of a dear Abby

49:21

conundrum type question there.

49:24

Anyway, that's where

49:26

we start. There were eight guests listening

49:28

to and repeating back some version of the story over the course

49:30

of an eight week season. It

49:33

was quite literally right literally a

49:36

long game. And I'll just tell you right now,

49:37

the only parts of the story that didn't

49:40

change practically at all were the

49:42

very beginning

49:44

there

49:44

were two guys in a relationship together.

49:46

Two guys. There's Elliott and

49:48

there's Kyle. Right?

49:49

A gay cat ball. Elliot.

49:51

Elliott and Kyle. He meets Kyle. They start

49:54

dating. They like each

49:56

other. They move in together. In the very

49:58

end, where the friends see the

49:59

TikTok video and ask them selves the

50:02

question. And the question is, do

50:04

we tell Elliot or not? Do we

50:06

tell Elliot? Should we tell him

50:08

about this TikTok? They don't know what they're

50:10

supposed to do. Yep.

50:10

Would you tell Elliott? I tell

50:13

Elliott and Harvey. Almost everything

50:14

else became completely unrecognizable.

50:18

By the way, TobyLowe, who was an act one, happened to be a guest on normal gossip

50:20

when they did this. Maybe you heard his voice

50:22

in there. With the first couple

50:26

of folks, the changes are relatively small. The very first

50:28

guest, Daniel Henderson, she's a TV

50:30

writer. She inserts this scene

50:32

where Elliot discovers that

50:34

Kyle has left. And

50:36

then he

50:36

goes back to their apartment that they

50:37

share, their place that they

50:40

share. And Kyle is gone. He has

50:42

packed up everything, but it's still the same

50:44

plot as the original. The

50:46

second person, Caitlin Kaler, who writes

50:48

about sports, when she heard Danielle

50:50

say that Kyle packed up

50:52

everything, seems to have taken that to

50:54

mean everything.

50:55

Kyle is gone.

50:57

The apartment is

51:00

empty.

51:00

There is no note.

51:03

There is no

51:03

trace of Kyle. It's like he never

51:05

lived there. He probably took all

51:08

his furniture and

51:10

food and Whatever, you know She

51:12

also I think inadvertently leaves out

51:14

a pretty important detail at the end. The

51:16

fact that Kyle is still gay.

51:18

probably

51:19

just didn't think to mention it. Besides that,

51:21

she casually adlives this kind of loose

51:23

dialogue in the beginning. where

51:26

Elliott's friends are all a flutter about meeting Kyle. Everyone

51:28

is, like, very curious. Like, who's

51:30

Kyle? Like, Elliott introduces to

51:32

Kyle,

51:33

we wanna meet your new

51:36

boyfriend. Like, you're so happy. How

51:38

are things going? But those few

51:40

alterations set us up for some real

51:42

misunderstandings that are about to take off with the

51:44

third person. Tracy Clayton of the podcast, Strong Black

51:46

Legends. She hears this part. Everyone is,

51:48

like, very curious. Like, who's Kyle?

51:50

Like, Elliott

51:50

introduced us to Kyle?

51:53

and takes it to mean that the friend group never

51:55

does meet Kyle, which is very

51:57

different. That and the

51:58

missing detail of Kyle

51:59

still being gay, leads to this

52:02

ending from Tracy. Again,

52:04

the friends are scrolling TikTok. And

52:06

so

52:06

they come across a TikTok

52:08

of a very evangelical, like,

52:11

born again, Christian, very

52:14

strict. Everything that's not in

52:16

the bible

52:18

is wrong. type of person and he's just going off and

52:20

saying, all this terrible stuff

52:22

and probably

52:24

very anti trans, anti

52:26

anti racism, anti everything

52:30

good. And it's just going off about all this

52:32

wild stuff,

52:34

but them. this man starts talking about this terrible toxic

52:36

relationship that he was in, and dropping

52:38

out of these heads, but not really saying, you

52:40

know, too much, so nobody really knew if

52:42

he was talking about Elliott or not,

52:44

but the friends are like,

52:45

he's definitely talking about Elliott.

52:47

That's so fucked up. Also, this

52:49

new somewhat more sinister

52:51

version of Kyle, took even more

52:54

from the apartment than he did before. The cat is gone. First mention of Kyle

52:56

taking the cat with him.

53:01

All of those

53:04

embellishments are crystallized and

53:07

even built upon in the fourth

53:09

iteration of the story. which is

53:11

sort of tag team told by Bobbyfinger and Lindsay Weber and

53:13

host another gossip podcast called WhoWeekly. More

53:15

than anyone else,

53:18

they really tried to imagine themselves into the heads of the friend group. Like

53:20

when Elliott tells them, I just moved in with this

53:22

guy Kyle and we got a cat together.

53:26

And his friends are, like, assumably, like, who?

53:28

Like, what? Like, how do we not

53:30

know this person? Why you moved in

53:32

with somebody? You got a cat with them? And we don't

53:36

even, like, know who it is. But you know what? We're so happy for

53:38

you. We're gonna feel positive about this. This is

53:40

how I would feel, I guess, if a friend of mine did this to me,

53:42

although I would be. a little bad, but that's

53:44

okay. That's my thing, not these people.

53:46

They

53:46

Be a little cocky cocky cocky cocky

53:48

cocky cocky cocky cocky cocky. Yeah.

53:50

yeah because you can't

53:51

just drop in the group chat that's active all

53:54

fucking day long. Oh, hey, by the way, I

53:56

live with someone and we have

53:57

a cat. Yeah, I get the feeling

53:59

the friends haven't

53:59

even like seen a photo of the oh, the friends have seen a photo. Wait.

54:02

No. The friends have not seen a photo. I

54:04

think the friends never even saw a photo of

54:06

this person.

54:07

Bobby worked on this story. It's our story. So you can say that

54:09

if you just wanna say. Never saw

54:11

a photo of this person. They didn't even

54:13

know what this person looks like. They just know the

54:15

name is Kyle. You

54:17

get the sense listening to Bobby and Lindsay that

54:19

they know they're embellishing some of the

54:21

details, but they're also hewing pretty closely to

54:23

the basic plot points they heard in

54:25

Tracy Clayton's version. So

54:26

Kyle Rob's Elliott blind, takes the cat, Elliott's

54:28

crushed, the friends are trying to

54:31

be supportive, the friends are

54:34

One of them at least is on their TikTok page. On their FYP, FYP

54:36

is the four u page.

54:39

And on the FYP, is

54:41

a video of an evangelical

54:44

TikTok influencer who is

54:46

apparently extremely religious, extremely

54:48

fundamentalist, has really problematic opinions.

54:50

And it's not like here's my lifestyle.

54:52

I'm viral for these horrible

54:54

opinions. Right? Oh, look at my cute

54:56

cat, Greg.

54:59

And then the friends are like, wait, wait,

55:00

I'm gonna twist. He's he's

55:03

like, I'm straight. Like, that's the

55:05

-- Right. Yeah. -- like, he's like,

55:07

I was in this awful relationship, but I found

55:09

God, here's my cat, Greg. I'm -- Right. --

55:11

my ex was toxic, and the friends see the

55:14

TikTok, and they're sharing it, and

55:16

they're like, Is this

55:16

about Elliot? This, of course,

55:18

is a huge change. They're naming

55:21

the cat Greg. I'm

55:23

kidding, the fact of Kyle now

55:25

being straight. Finally, this is the

55:27

first iteration of the story where the detail of

55:29

Kyle being previously married to a woman was

55:32

left out. So in the original, Kyle was the

55:34

beginning of the story, now

55:36

he's with women at the end.

55:38

And more and more, Kyle is

55:40

becoming

55:40

and more

55:41

a villain. Until

55:43

by the fifth telling of the story, he's out and out malicious, even

55:45

criminal. For that version. The

55:47

fifth one was the one told by our

55:49

very owned Jobin

55:52

Low. They are also getting a cat together, let's call the

55:54

cat mister mister misteraphilies from

55:56

cats the musical because as

56:00

one does. And I know this will sound biased because I work with them,

56:02

but his version is really

56:04

one of my favorites

56:06

in this reverse

56:07

groundhog day movie about Elliot and

56:10

Kyle.

56:10

Cut two, one of his

56:12

friends in the middle of the night scrolling

56:14

through TikTok as one does.

56:17

comes across a TikTok on

56:19

their 4U page. And

56:22

it is this guy

56:25

talking about how he catfishes people. His whole thing is

56:27

that he pretends to be gay. He

56:30

gets in these

56:32

relationships. He's actually like a

56:34

very religious conservative person.

56:36

And so he's like catfishing these dudes

56:38

to be in relationships with him.

56:42

And It's

56:43

all a sham. It's all a sham.

56:45

And so then he goes

56:47

into, like, I recently did this

56:49

to a guy we got cat together,

56:51

mister mister Mustafoli's.

56:54

And and then and then

56:56

I, like, took him for all he's worth. And actually,

56:58

like, it was a really bad toxic relationship. Did

57:01

you hear

57:02

what happened there? Basically,

57:04

Toeban took these loose facts from

57:06

Bobby and Lindsay's telling, the empty apartment,

57:09

Kyle being and very religious and conservative. And

57:11

he combines all those things. Into

57:14

a

57:14

catfishing scam artist

57:16

who is not only

57:18

doing that, but bragging about it on

57:20

TikTok. This is Alex

57:21

again, the normal gossip producer. Which

57:24

seems

57:24

to me like, honestly, this

57:26

is the turn that makes the least

57:29

logical sense to me. Sorry,

57:31

Tobin. But, like, if he's a scam

57:33

artist, why would you be bragging about it,

57:35

then your scam is ruined.

57:37

You know? I hadn't even thought of that. And it's funny

57:39

because, like, Tobin has said multiple

57:42

times, like, he thought he was

57:44

telling it

57:46

perfectly. I

57:46

stand by what I said. I thought that I

57:48

told it exactly as it was

57:50

told to me. This, of course, is

57:52

my colleague, TobyLowe.

57:54

He dained to consent to

57:55

an interview for this story. And the all if you

57:57

had asked me afterwards, the only liberty

57:59

I

57:59

was very consciously taking

58:02

was changing the cat's name, which I thought

58:04

was just fun and

58:06

harmless. To be fair,

58:07

Bobby did use the word

58:09

scam one time in his and

58:11

Lindsay's telling of the story. But there was nothing about catfishing, and certainly no

58:14

mention of multiple victims

58:16

of same. Toban

58:18

ultimately heard

58:18

the original version of the story, and I had

58:20

to wonder what he thought about it. I think I

58:22

was surprised that they were happy at one

58:25

point or like or like they had a really

58:27

good relationship.

58:29

the rain Right. I think

58:30

that I would have assumed that that

58:33

would survive in some way. in

58:35

the retellings. The original is just

58:38

kinda sad. And then

58:40

it becomes it becomes

58:42

extraordinary in a way that like by the

58:45

end people's hurt is not

58:47

the focus. Yeah. It's

58:50

like it's like sort

58:52

of how wild people's actions

58:54

are. And like you've sort of drifted

58:56

far away from the original smaller,

59:00

more human hurt. And he has

59:02

a

59:02

theory as to how they all collectively got

59:05

there. In

59:05

retrospect, I think what happened

59:08

is that Everyone

59:10

knew that there was this

59:12

thing coming in the story where

59:14

Kyle was gonna leave Elliott.

59:17

and that's sort of like all roads lead

59:19

to this big moment in the

59:22

story. And I think to some degree,

59:24

we were all like reverse engineering

59:26

to that moment. like, how do you

59:28

explain the beats of what happened? How do

59:30

you explain everyone's actions?

59:33

So that that makes sense and lands really

59:35

hard. Right. So that you recreate the

59:38

same gas that you

59:40

had when you

59:42

heard it.

59:42

Right.

59:44

Right. I can create that

59:46

moment again. because in the original, there is

59:48

no explanation, and you're just kind of

59:50

like, what the heck? Yes. and

59:53

that's an uncomfortable feeling. Right. Exactly.

59:55

Just like it is in life.

59:57

But of course,

59:59

as Toby had to remind me, the original story

1:00:02

is life. That version

1:00:04

wasn't part of a game. It

1:00:06

really happened.

1:00:06

really

1:00:12

Weirdly, there was only one

1:00:13

more major change to the

1:00:15

story after Tobin's version when

1:00:17

the comedian Brian Park tells

1:00:19

it next, the guy in the TikTok video

1:00:21

is not Kyle, but one of

1:00:24

Kyle's many

1:00:26

unsuspecting victims. warning other TikTokers to watch out for this

1:00:28

predator, which of course makes a lot more

1:00:30

sense. Oh, and there's no mention of them

1:00:32

getting a

1:00:34

cat. and then the two versions after that are basically

1:00:36

identical to

1:00:37

Brian's. It's like there were no more questions to

1:00:39

be answered. No gaps

1:00:42

in understanding. All of the reverse

1:00:44

engineering Tobin talked about was

1:00:46

complete, which makes you wonder if

1:00:48

there's a natural end to a game

1:00:50

like this. If

1:00:51

you can only retell the story so many

1:00:53

times before plateaus, stay static. I bet you that

1:00:55

happens to Urban Myth

1:00:56

too. Alex

1:00:59

Yujang Lofland says watching the story go

1:01:01

through all of those changes was kind

1:01:03

of thrilling. It was like seeing your own little monster

1:01:05

come alive on the laboratory table.

1:01:07

But by the last couple two, three versions of the story, she had

1:01:10

this other feeling as well. It

1:01:12

makes

1:01:12

me feel sad. Why?

1:01:15

it makes me think of the

1:01:17

way that people become characters to each

1:01:19

other. And it just feels

1:01:21

like, you know, I don't know. Not to be all,

1:01:23

like, didactic and stuff, but we're talking the

1:01:26

night before election day, and I've

1:01:28

I've watched this play out

1:01:30

for months. the way that people

1:01:32

just get flattened into,

1:01:34

like, you know, conservative

1:01:37

rednecks who hate

1:01:39

everybody or, like, radical feminazzis who wanna, like, kill

1:01:42

babies. Right. And it

1:01:43

just, like, it

1:01:44

bums me out to see it happen so quickly even

1:01:46

even in such a, like, low stakes

1:01:50

story. It's

1:01:50

sort of like all of us are playing the game all the

1:01:52

time. Yeah.

1:01:53

Yeah. And,

1:01:55

like, maybe

1:01:56

maybe in those moments when you, like,

1:01:58

feel like you want to, like,

1:01:59

jump to a conclusion or, like, flatten

1:02:02

somebody because it makes the

1:02:04

story better.

1:02:05

Like, maybe don't. You know? Maybe

1:02:07

don't. I I don't

1:02:08

know. I I would like to create

1:02:10

fewer of these like monster kiles

1:02:12

even if they're fictional. That

1:02:15

seems like a

1:02:16

worthy slogan on behalf of decency

1:02:18

and fairness to others. Let's create

1:02:21

fewer monster kiles. Only a handful of

1:02:23

people in the world would understand it means course. But just

1:02:26

like the Julius

1:02:27

gossip, maybe

1:02:29

it would spread

1:02:38

Shanko,

1:02:38

one of the producers of our program.

1:02:40

To hear the full episode, the normal gossip did where all this plays out, you can find

1:02:42

that and there are other episodes wherever

1:02:44

you get your podcast. By

1:02:47

the way, the friends did tell Elliot about

1:02:49

the TikTok.

1:02:51

the laugh He laughed.

1:02:52

it

1:03:00

that it is the

1:03:11

What

1:03:14

program was produced today by Toobin Bow.

1:03:16

People who put together today's show include Elna

1:03:18

Baker, Chris Bender, Zoey Chase, Sean, Cole, Michael

1:03:20

Komete, and VP of The Cornfeld, Valerie Kibnisto

1:03:23

and Nelson our main London, Nadia Raymond, Ryan

1:03:25

Rummery, Charlotte Sleeper, Louis Sullivan,

1:03:27

Frances Swanson, Christopher Todd, met tyranny,

1:03:29

Julie Whittaker, and Diane

1:03:31

Wrull. Managing editor, Sarah Abdulraman, our senior editor,

1:03:33

David Kastonbaum, our executive editor, Emmanuel

1:03:36

Berry. Special thanks today to

1:03:38

John Vice lines, SenSion, Justin Alice, Kelsey McKinney,

1:03:40

Jay Tovierra, and Jeff Triplett. Well,

1:03:42

that's a lot. A contestant in the Climate Game

1:03:44

Show. She has a podcast of

1:03:46

her own. the big

1:03:48

switch about the transition to a NetZero

1:03:50

World. Our website where right

1:03:52

now you can find all kinds of merch,

1:03:54

onesie's t shirt sweatshirt, public

1:03:56

radio tattoos, for your holiday

1:03:58

shopping. This american life

1:04:00

dot org. This american life is delivered to

1:04:02

public radio stations by

1:04:04

PRX, the public radio exchange, Special thanks as

1:04:06

always to our program's cofounder, mister Torena

1:04:08

Aitia. He's actually on his way to the office

1:04:10

right now, probably because they sent

1:04:12

him this. Tory Malatia.

1:04:14

Come on down. You're

1:04:17

the next contestant on

1:04:19

this American Life.

1:04:22

Tamara Glass. Back next week, Tamara stories of this American

1:04:26

life.

1:04:26

That Next

1:04:40

week on

1:04:42

the podcast

1:04:44

of this American Life,

1:04:47

Right before his fortieth birthday, James Spring decided

1:04:49

he wanted to do something big. His wife was

1:04:51

trying to organize a party or something, but he

1:04:54

wanted to

1:04:54

do something and he knew how this sounded.

1:04:56

heroic, which

1:04:56

is how we ended up chasing mathematics

1:04:58

and searching for kidnapped children

1:05:02

in Mexico. saving the

1:05:04

day. Next week on the podcast or on your

1:05:06

local public

1:05:08

radio station.