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0:45

Hello, and welcome to this day in esoteric

0:47

political history from radiotopia. My

0:49

name is Jody Abregon. This

0:53

day January two thousand and two

0:55

women, two grandmothers, are traveling from

0:57

Havana to the United States. They

0:59

are seeking the return of their grandson

1:02

from the US to Cuba.

1:04

Their grandson is Elian Gonzales,

1:06

a six year old boy whose family had

1:08

fled from Cuba to Miami in

1:10

a raft. His mother drowned

1:13

while trying to make the passage. And ended

1:15

up in Miami with relatives and

1:17

would become embroiled in a heated

1:19

custody and immigration controversy with

1:21

all sorts of political wrinkles

1:24

I think for anyone listening now who was watching

1:26

the news at the time they remember a

1:28

lot of flash points of this story, including

1:30

some of the images, including that photo

1:32

of a Scared Elian being taken from

1:35

his home by authorities. But there

1:37

are so many dimensions here and so many

1:39

political angles, which is sort of what we

1:41

get into in this show. So here to discuss,

1:43

as always are Nicole Hammer of Vanderbilt

1:45

and Kelly Carter Jackson of Wellesley. Hello

1:47

there. Hello, Jody. Hey there.

1:50

And our special guest for this episode is Gerardo

1:52

Cadava, Professor of History

1:54

at Northwestern who focuses on Latinos

1:56

in the United States, and he's been on the show before. And

1:58

you may remember that we gave a shout out

2:00

to Jerry's newsletter, Latinos in-depth

2:03

when we did our favorite things of twenty twenty

2:05

two episodes. So if that's incumbents you

2:07

to subscribe, this will convince you to subscribe.

2:09

But Jerry, welcome back to the

2:10

show. Thank you for doing this. Thanks

2:12

so much for having me. You guys are two

2:14

kinds. I appreciate it.

2:16

Too kind is a good standard to aspire.

2:18

There you go. There you go. There you go. There you go.

2:20

There you

2:21

go. There you go. There you go. Wrong.

2:23

So look, talk about a story with with layers

2:26

and forgotten layers. But, you know, I'll just I'll

2:28

just kinda start to say, like, you can

2:30

kind of, you know, move up the layers

2:32

in terms of scale. And you can say, okay, there's

2:34

the personal layer of this young boy in his

2:36

family. And then there's the local

2:38

layer of, you know, the Cuban community in

2:40

Miami, which is super interested thing in

2:43

Nuance and fraud. And then there's the national layer

2:45

of Florida and US politics and Gore

2:47

and Bush. And then, of course, there's the international layer

2:49

of US and Cuba relations. So Jerry,

2:52

it's up to you. You could stick a toe hole

2:54

in any of those layers and start

2:56

climbing

2:56

around. But where do where do you start with this?

2:59

Yeah. I mean, you really could go anywhere. I

3:01

mean, maybe I'll start with Latino politics

3:03

and national politics since that's

3:06

what you guys do. That's what I do. But we

3:08

we really can go anywhere with this. I mean, one

3:10

of the reasons this is such a compelling story is

3:12

that it's a particular incident that does

3:14

show us so much about so many

3:17

things that are going on at the turn of the century.

3:19

So in Latino politics, it

3:22

became a really pivotal episode

3:25

shaping how Latinos voted in Florida

3:28

in the twenty twenty or I'm sorry, not twenty

3:30

twenty. My

3:30

mind is still in the twenty twenty election.

3:32

But in the in the two thousand election,

3:34

which was certainly as pivotal.

3:37

And, you you

3:39

know, many Latinos

3:42

refer to it as sort

3:44

of the most consequential event

3:47

in US Cuban relations that shaped

3:50

the Latino vote, the Cuban American

3:52

vote in Florida since the Bay

3:54

of Pigs invasion in

3:56

nineteen sixty one. And we know

3:59

that that earlier episode was

4:01

one in which the

4:04

failures of the JFK

4:06

administered ratio really alienated a

4:08

lot of Cuban Americans and

4:10

sent them toward the Republican

4:13

Party as they naturalized in greater

4:15

and greater numbers. And the argument about

4:17

the Elian Gonzales episode is that was

4:19

as consequential for the

4:21

Latino vote. And George

4:23

w Bush in Florida that

4:25

year, in two thousand one,

4:27

eighty percent of the Cuban American

4:29

vote. And we know that Florida is much

4:32

in the news today too. But

4:34

that'll give you a sense, just the fact that George

4:37

Bush won eighty percent of the Cuban

4:39

American vote in two thousand in an

4:41

election in that state that was decided

4:43

by only five hundred thirty seven

4:45

boats of a total of five point

4:47

eight million cast. That

4:50

eighty percent for bush was really pivotal

4:52

and many thought that he won

4:54

such widespread support in

4:56

Florida because of how the

4:58

Elian Gonzalez

4:59

episode shook out. How

5:02

much of that was a deviation from

5:04

where the Cuban vote had been,

5:06

say, in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties?

5:09

Was it more overwhelmingly Republican?

5:11

Was it switching from Democrat to Republican?

5:14

How do you see that as a a change in the in

5:16

two thousand?

5:17

Eighty percent is about in line with

5:20

the highest levels of support, a

5:22

Republican head one. So so

5:24

Reagan did about that well. But it

5:26

came in a moment when there was

5:28

hope among Democrats that that story

5:30

had been starting to shift,

5:32

you know. So there was some expectation or or

5:34

hope, I guess, really, that Democrats

5:37

could cut into

5:37

that, but they didn't largely

5:40

because of early on Gonzalez. Mhmm.

5:43

Why did this story get so much

5:45

attention. Howard Bauchner: Yeah,

5:47

well, there's, you know, that's that gets

5:49

us into US Cuban relations to

5:51

a degree. But in the early

5:53

nineteen nineties, nineteen

5:55

ninety four, I believe, Bill Clinton had

5:58

implemented the wet feet, dry feet

6:00

policy, a kind of new immigrant

6:02

policy with respect to Cubans. And it said, basically,

6:05

that if would

6:08

be Cuban exile, Cuban

6:10

immigrant would be intercepted

6:12

in the waters between Cuba

6:15

and Florida, they would have to be returned to

6:17

Cuba. But if they made it,

6:20

to land in Florida, but they

6:22

could stay in the United States. And

6:24

because Elian and his mother were

6:26

intercepted in a raft in the

6:28

waters between Cuba and Florida

6:31

by that proclamation, by

6:34

that policy, Elian,

6:36

should have been returned to

6:39

Cuba. That was a no brainer, but

6:41

the Cuban exile community

6:43

in Florida really made the

6:45

argument that here was

6:48

someone trying to escape oppressive

6:52

terrannical rule in

6:54

Cuba to find

6:56

freedom in the United States,

6:58

so the Cuban exile community in Florida

7:00

really took it up as an issue

7:05

that was kind of pivotal in the

7:07

battles between Cuba and the United

7:09

States. And their long standing opposition

7:11

to Clinton's seemingly

7:13

arbitrary immigration

7:16

policy, wet feet, dry feet. I mean, that's

7:18

like pulling an answer out of a hat craft

7:20

immigration

7:20

policy. And so

7:22

that's that's why Don't ask. Don't

7:23

tell? Yes. I can

7:25

say. I wonder

7:27

if the the Clinton era will be revisited

7:29

for its clever life. Oh, wacky recipe.

7:31

Donas. Donas. Donas. Donas. Was

7:34

she washy? Oh, gosh. I

7:36

wonder too how much

7:38

of this story I

7:41

mean, it really pulls on the emotional

7:44

drawstrings to know that there is

7:46

a little boy who's in this

7:48

raft, who's lost his mother, his

7:50

mother has drowned at

7:52

sea, along with several

7:54

others. And so the helplessness

7:56

of this little boy

7:59

who think it's it's taken in by, like, a great

8:01

uncle and then the rest of the family sort

8:03

of, like, surrounds him in this

8:05

hopes of of keeping him in

8:07

the United States. Children,

8:11

unfortunately, or fortunately, become

8:13

these really, like, political

8:15

pawns oftentimes in which you can

8:17

use people's emotionality to

8:19

sort of pull on that, like,

8:21

well, he needs to stay. This is better. He's

8:23

lost everything. You know, that kind of

8:25

meredith, I think feeds really well into

8:27

people sympathies and

8:29

wanting, you know, to do right by this

8:31

child. This also happens on

8:32

Thanksgiving. And he's rescued by

8:35

fishermen. And so there's this way that

8:37

a a very compelling narrative

8:40

emerges from the water along with Elian.

8:43

Absolutely. And I was thinking about

8:45

that just today how the

8:47

kind of bookends of this whole episode are

8:49

thanksgiving when his

8:51

mother's body and he had kind of recovered from the

8:53

water. And then it ends after

8:55

midnight on Easter Sunday on

8:57

April twenty second two thousand.

8:59

So when

9:01

the US kind of armed

9:03

officials kind of break into Allianz

9:05

house, and that's what that's the episode that kind

9:08

of produced famous photograph that

9:10

eventually won the Pulitzer prize.

9:12

So, yeah, the bookends on

9:14

these two holidays and

9:16

all that they say about America's

9:18

sensitive self and its, you know,

9:21

land of plenty and piety

9:23

connected by Thanksgiving in April or or

9:25

Easter Sunday. I think it's just really

9:27

interesting. I haven't fully thought through that yet. I just

9:29

think it's an interesting coincidence

9:31

for now. But but yeah, I

9:33

think, Kelly, to your point, you

9:36

know, how the emotionality

9:38

of of a kind of quote unquote

9:40

innocent child being the

9:42

center point of this story is interesting,

9:44

especially as it's playing out in the

9:46

what's playing out in the background are all

9:48

of these ideas about, you know,

9:50

America's the land of opportunity and freedom

9:52

and and shouldn't and this is what Republicans

9:54

are playing on. I mean, shouldn't Eliane

9:57

have all of the wonderful opportunities

9:59

of this gray land, you

10:01

know? And This connects with

10:03

national politics because it

10:05

really put Al Gore in a tight

10:07

position, you know. I mean, I think Al Gore in the

10:09

two thousand campaign was probably put in a tight

10:11

position by Bill Clinton and lots of

10:13

other More than once more than once

10:16

more than once, you know, how

10:18

does Al Gore

10:20

position himself with respect to

10:22

his boss slash, you know,

10:24

about to be former boss. So you

10:26

know, there's a lot going on there. And

10:28

the type position

10:30

Gore has put in is that, you know,

10:32

his boss's policy is

10:34

wet feet, dry feet. You know, it's a clear

10:36

cut example of someone needing

10:38

to go back to Cuba

10:41

because that's what the law says. That's what Bill

10:43

Clinton's policy says. But,

10:45

you know, because

10:48

of this innocent child

10:50

who had the opportunity to

10:52

remain in the United States and

10:54

enjoy all of the

10:56

privileges and freedoms of all of

10:58

these are in quotation marks, you know,

11:00

of of being here. You

11:02

know, it really played

11:04

on the Florida

11:07

voting population. Mhmm. In particular, and

11:09

I think on the national population

11:12

watching all of this unfold. And

11:14

I think Al Gore could kind of

11:16

sense the politics,

11:18

the the importance of the politics of

11:20

this, and even though

11:22

he initially responded to the

11:24

situation by saying, like, well, wet

11:26

free dry feet that says that we have to send

11:28

him back. Over time, he began to

11:31

distance himself from that because all

11:33

along his opponent George

11:35

W. Bush was saying like, oh, you know, I really

11:37

think we ought to give out on the opportunity

11:39

to stay here. We should even invite

11:41

his family over, and they can see

11:43

how wonderful it is to live in the United

11:45

States. That's why And we should

11:46

give citizenship too. Yes. We

11:48

should give them yeah. Right. Exactly. If all

11:50

of the Latino immigrants we should

11:52

give citizenship to. Let's give it to

11:54

Elian. And so, yeah, I guess, in

11:56

some ways, it was kind of in line with pushes

11:59

over all approach to immigration and

12:01

having a different immigration policy than

12:03

Bob Dole or Pat Buchanan or

12:05

others. So I guess it's in line with that. But but

12:07

yeah, I mean, I think I'm just just beginning

12:09

to sketch out how

12:12

difficult this situation was for Al

12:14

Gore to respond to. You

12:22

know, you mentioned the family, we

12:25

we are hooking this date to the

12:27

moment when his grandparents

12:29

come to the US and basically say, like, we

12:31

want him to return. You

12:34

know, his father is in Cuba

12:36

writing op eds in the newspaper,

12:38

you know, over and over and over saying,

12:41

I want him to return. He should be with his family here

12:43

in Cuba. Public opinion polls show that

12:45

the majority of Americans think he should return

12:48

home as we discussed, you know, INS

12:50

policy very clearly said he should

12:52

return home. And yet, you

12:54

know, I think this was seen as

12:56

a real controversy

12:58

with strong you

12:58

know, emotional opinions on both sides.

13:01

Can you just paint the contours of,

13:03

like, who was actually --

13:05

Sure. -- arguing that this kid should stay

13:07

here? Sure. Well, I mean, and then you have

13:09

his knuckle who he was

13:11

living with in Miami.

13:13

And if anyone who listens

13:15

to this ghost to Miami, the

13:17

uncle actually runs his

13:19

home as a kind of informal museum.

13:22

And you can, like, go knock on

13:24

the door and the uncle will take you in

13:26

and, like, show you the closet

13:28

and

13:28

stuff. Oh,

13:29

my god. Yeah.

13:30

Yeah. No. It's kinda crazy.

13:31

I mean, on these in, but

13:34

he'll like take you in. I can't remember where

13:36

it is, but it's in kind of like the heart

13:38

of little Havana you

13:40

can there's the main drag main

13:42

drag of eighth Street, and you can

13:44

just walk a few blocks from there and

13:46

go to Allianz Gonzalez as his uncle

13:48

uncle uncle's house. But, you know, in some part of what I was thinking

13:50

about Jody when you were talking how, like,

13:53

hardline human exiles have always

13:55

been able to take positions that

13:57

kind of flout the mainstream Republican

14:00

Party position and the Republican Party in many

14:02

ways kind of caters to

14:04

their demands and their needs in the

14:06

context of Florida politics for sure. So I

14:08

think on the one hand, the people who wanted

14:10

him to stay were his

14:13

family members who had committed to

14:15

living in Florida, the

14:17

broader Cuban exile community, and

14:19

the Republican Party who is

14:22

often willing to bend over backwards

14:24

to satisfied the Cuban American exile

14:26

community in

14:26

Florida. It's an

14:28

interesting moment for that as well. Right?

14:30

Like, you have a very savvy exile

14:33

community who's holding protests, who's making

14:35

sure that there's media coverage

14:37

in order to keep this story in the

14:39

news, and they are very much aided by the

14:41

fact that not only is there presidential campaign

14:43

going on, so there are a lot of

14:45

eyes on Florida in two thousand even

14:47

before the recount starts. But Jeb

14:49

Bush, the brother of the guy who's

14:51

running for president, is the governor of

14:53

Florida. And so there are these

14:55

there are a lot of there's a

14:57

lot of motivation. There are a lot of

15:00

unblocked emails. There's why. So --

15:02

Totally. -- keep this a

15:04

front

15:04

page. Story. Absolutely. And the the Cuban exile

15:06

community had been very savvy about its

15:08

usage of media ever since the nineteen

15:10

eighties with Jorge Masconosa, and the

15:12

foundation of the Cuban American National

15:14

Foundation. And, you know,

15:16

the radio shows that

15:18

were produced in Miami that could

15:21

broadcast its messages

15:23

to both to, you know,

15:25

Cubans in the United States and Cubans

15:27

living on the island and Castro had kind of

15:29

spent a lot a lot of time trying

15:31

to block those airwaves

15:33

unsuccessfully. And so it really

15:35

does. That's another layer of it. The

15:37

US Cuban relations and how media

15:40

was able to mobilize. And that gets back to

15:42

Kelly's point about Allianz being a kind of

15:44

a symbol, you

15:45

know, a really important symbol. On

15:48

both sides, I'm just empathetic to

15:50

how at six years old, you

15:52

can't grapple with the gravity

15:55

of the political maneuverings

15:58

that are happening. And

16:01

and I wonder, you know, how much as

16:03

an adult, he's able to even

16:05

tease out what

16:08

intentions were good and what

16:10

intentions were

16:10

political, you know. I mean, it's It's

16:13

very sticky. No, it's a

16:15

great question. And, you know, I know

16:17

that, you know, we're gonna get there

16:19

anyway. What's happened to

16:19

Elian.

16:20

Yeah. That's how many years. Here's. I

16:22

mean, he immediately got pulled

16:24

into the world of US

16:26

Cuban con conflict.

16:29

Right? So and he became a

16:31

kind of hero of the Cuban

16:33

revolution because he was repatriated to

16:35

Cuba. Raul Castro, Fidel

16:37

Castro's brother kind of attended almost

16:39

every birthday party that Elian

16:41

Gonzales had from the time

16:43

he landed into the present, you

16:45

know. And so he went

16:47

to Cuban Military Academy got

16:50

a degree as an engineer, has

16:52

become one of the leading most

16:54

prominent spokespeople for

16:56

the Cuban revolution

16:57

today, and he's really a kind of Castro

17:00

loyalist. And

17:02

pictures of him sitting next to Castro and --

17:05

Yeah. -- sort of referring to miss

17:07

his father. I mean, it's

17:08

-- Yes. -- it's

17:08

pretty powerful. Yes. Yeah.

17:11

So castro all of the castros. I mean,

17:13

the Cuban Cuban Revolutionary Leaders, I

17:15

mean, used Elian as

17:17

a symbol then

17:19

and continues to do so,

17:21

you know. And And

17:24

it is interesting to your point

17:26

about a six year old, you know,

17:28

kind of being caught up in this and not having

17:30

a say in the matter, but also not knowing

17:32

necessarily what's right or wrong. I mean, I

17:34

this the story could have turned out

17:36

very differently for him if he had

17:38

stayed in the United States instead of going back to

17:40

Cuba, you know. So But instead, his whole life been shaped

17:43

by coming back to Cuba and

17:45

becoming a kind of hero within

17:47

Cuba.

17:49

It's hard to have any

17:52

conversations about the GOP of

17:54

this era and not, you know,

17:56

say, does that GOP still

17:58

exist? And particularly, with regards to immigration

18:00

questions. But, you know,

18:02

does this story indicate

18:04

in that larger sweep?

18:07

You know, is it is it an ending bracket or are

18:09

there still parts of the GOP that kinda responded

18:11

in this way that are still out there now? I mean,

18:13

can you just put this in that larger context

18:15

of the GOP's approach to

18:18

immigration?

18:18

Well, I think when

18:21

it comes to Cuban

18:24

immigration, it's probably more

18:26

of a story of continuity between

18:28

the nineteen sixties, nineteen

18:31

seventies, nineteen eighties, and nineteen

18:33

nineties, and today in the sense that

18:35

humans have always kind of been seen as

18:37

as an exception within immigration

18:39

politics. They've been given an

18:42

easier path to belonging here in the

18:44

United States than other immigrants

18:46

had. And I think the, you know,

18:48

the the Cuban exile community has

18:51

really pressed its case from

18:53

the nineteen sixties to the present about

18:55

how certain exceptions should

18:57

be made for them. And Over time, they've

18:59

also applied the same kind of logic to

19:01

immigrants from El

19:04

Salvador and Venezuela

19:07

and other places where they

19:09

think similar kind of cold war and

19:11

even post cold war

19:13

conflicts are happening between the United States

19:15

and Cuba. So I do think I do think

19:17

there are still even in this GOP

19:20

of Republicans who would be very

19:23

sympathetic to the

19:25

case of Elian Gonzales, if it

19:27

were to happen today, even

19:29

in a a kind of era that's become even

19:32

more restrictionist than I

19:34

I think, I mean, maybe Nikki and I could talk about this,

19:36

but I think today is probably even more

19:38

restrictionist than what was

19:40

going on in the in the nineteen nineties

19:42

or at least was

19:44

the fringe argument in the nineteen nineties

19:46

has very much defined

19:49

what immigration politics is to

19:50

pay. But I think even today, there would be

19:53

sympathy for

19:54

Oh, yeah. I think that Cuban immigrant

19:58

exceptionalism allows the conversation

20:00

to be less about immigration and

20:02

more about the US' relationship

20:05

with dictators and with

20:07

communism. And so there's a a storyline that you can

20:09

pull out of this that is about

20:11

a Democratic president who

20:13

gave in to the demands of a dictator

20:15

and showed weakness in --

20:17

Yeah. -- on

20:17

the world stage. And I think that has been

20:20

the more powerful interpretation

20:22

on the right, and there's been very little

20:25

conversation about immigration as

20:28

the core issue that the Gonzales

20:30

story is

20:30

about. Right. All

20:32

of this to me too seems

20:35

like on

20:37

both sides, Elan has to be set up for

20:39

success because if he

20:41

goes back to Cuba -- Mhmm. -- he

20:43

can't go back and sort of lead

20:47

a popper's life because then

20:49

that would prove the point of every one

20:51

is like, say, we were trying to get him out

20:53

and now look at his life. So he has to be an

20:55

engineer. He has to be, you

20:57

know, great or accomplished. And

20:59

then, I guess, on the flip side, you know, if he

21:01

would have come to America, and

21:04

also not. Have a great life.

21:06

It would the same argument could

21:08

be made that, like, well, if he had stayed with

21:10

his father and if he had stayed in his country, he could have

21:12

been safe, he could have been, know, like, all of

21:14

these, I think, outcomes

21:16

of, like, who he

21:18

becomes as a person becomes

21:21

an indictment or or validation of

21:23

the the government that he's a part

21:24

of, or the country that he's a part of, which

21:26

is why

21:27

I think it was important

21:30

when he resurfaces in the

21:32

2000s and there are stories that are written about

21:34

him as he goes through

21:36

college and becomes an

21:38

engineer that I think that there were a lot of interpretations of that

21:40

story in the US that he was brainwashed

21:42

by Casserole and that he would, you

21:44

know, that this wasn't a true story

21:47

in a lot of ways, but that he was forced into this position,

21:50

which is a way of trying to counter the

21:53

narrative coming out of Cuba. Mhmm.

21:55

I think that's really interesting, Kelly. I mean, I hadn't really thought about

21:57

that particular aspect of it. But yes, I

21:59

mean, he he couldn't return to

22:01

Cuba and kind of resume life as

22:05

an average Cuban. Whatever that means, I mean, you

22:07

guys the life that let him

22:08

him and certainly don't wanna go to the US. Right?

22:11

Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly.

22:13

He had to become a symbol of the

22:16

successes of the revolution. I

22:18

think that's really interesting. And the

22:20

brainwashing aspect of it

22:22

is interesting. Too, Nikki. I mean, I think that

22:24

that that just shows how

22:26

different the politics of it read in different

22:27

contexts. Well, because It might not

22:29

be gold war. Right. Yeah. I mean, he but

22:31

also

22:31

if I He's given he's he's

22:34

given interviews where he's talked about how his

22:36

relatives in the United States

22:38

or getting his ear about how awful life

22:40

was back in Cuba and how his father didn't love

22:42

him and all this

22:43

stuff, you know. So

22:44

I mean, brainwashing

22:46

and spinning and and manipulation, you know, for, again, a

22:48

six year old kid was was all

22:51

around. Yeah. As we wrap up, you

22:53

know, on the political dimensions of this

22:55

and the political impact this. You

22:57

know, I was kind of surprised to hear you say,

22:59

like, it's the Cuban

23:01

Revolution and this are, like, the two

23:03

flashpoint, you know,

23:05

moments in the story for the Cuban American community in Miami.

23:07

I

23:07

mean, what is the

23:09

the legacy of this moment

23:12

for that incredibly powerful

23:14

political block. And

23:15

moreover, is it still talk about? I mean, is it

23:17

still is it still something that's salient even

23:20

today? Interesting. That's a good question. Because

23:22

I guess I do when I think about

23:24

the kind of origin

23:26

stories of Cuban exile politics

23:29

today, I still think primarily

23:31

of the bad pigs. And I think,

23:33

you know, like, when Marco Rubio kind

23:35

of became a politician on the national

23:37

stage. And

23:39

very well regarded within the Cuban exile

23:41

community so much of his

23:43

origin story had to

23:45

do with his parents coming

23:48

after Even though that ended up not being true,

23:50

they came before the Cuban revolution,

23:52

but his whole kind of story

23:55

of his his upbringing and political

23:57

formation had to do more with the

23:59

Cuban Revolution, the Bay of Pigs than it

24:01

did this moment in nineteen ninety

24:03

nine. So I think that that could

24:05

have been something that was

24:07

articulated at the time as a as a

24:09

way of signaling how momentous this is,

24:11

but I do think that as

24:14

as something that really motivates

24:17

a core motivator of

24:19

the Cuban Exile vote today. The Cuban

24:21

American vote today IIII

24:23

think maybe I would say that the Elian

24:25

story has faded a little bit

24:27

in comparison with an

24:30

episode like the Bay of Pics, but I

24:32

do think that culturally,

24:35

it still is an important

24:37

story. I I saw that in

24:39

Miami last fall, there's a new play called Elian

24:42

Mhmm. His voice is in the or

24:44

or what is supposed to be his voice is

24:46

in the background of the play. You don't actually see

24:49

Gonzalez. The play was made by a kind of Jewish

24:52

Venezuelan refugee living in

24:54

Miami who wanted to kind of bring the

24:56

story back up to remind

24:58

Cuban exiles of its poignant, but but

25:00

that's it's kind of cultural relevance

25:03

rather than how it's motivating

25:06

cubin American politics today. Do you do you have

25:08

a different answer to that, Nikki?

25:11

No. I I

25:13

think that I think that you're exactly right. But

25:15

the Cuban vote in many ways

25:17

has remained a key

25:19

part of Republican coalition

25:23

politics. It's just -- Yeah. -- especially in

25:25

Florida. Although, it'll be interesting to see how

25:27

much it changes as

25:29

Florida becomes a redder and therefore less

25:32

swingy

25:32

state. Yeah. And and by that, you mean

25:35

and maybe the Cuban American

25:37

vote in particular become less

25:39

significant. Because after all, I think, you know, there aren't

25:41

there's still there are as many Mexicans and

25:43

Puerto Ricans who will

25:46

play a greater role in the state and not

25:48

just

25:48

Cubans. That's

25:49

exactly right. Like, they'll they'll be less of a hinge

25:52

point in the state. Yes. And, you

25:54

know, I think the the kind of flashpoint

25:56

of Cuban and American politics today

25:58

still has to do very much with

26:00

socialism. I mean, you joked that we're

26:02

kind of still living in the Cold War someday, and maybe

26:04

historians are even already doing this, are

26:06

writing books about how the Cold War never ended. In

26:08

fact, like, we're still living in

26:11

putin's resurgence says a lot

26:13

about this. So, you know, I

26:15

think that socialism is still to kind of

26:17

socialism and anti socialism are still the

26:19

motivating factors. And I think you can plug

26:22

into that story, but

26:24

it's not that Elian is the story

26:26

itself.

26:26

Yeah. Yeah. Alright.

26:29

Well, we are gonna leave it there.

26:31

Super fascinating, and we really

26:33

appreciate you coming back on, Geraldo Cadava,

26:36

NorthWestern, and the newsletter,

26:38

Latinos in-depth. Anything else you wanna plug? You got any

26:40

plays about someone coming out there.

26:45

I wanna collect you guys. You guys

26:47

are awesome. Everyone should keep

26:49

listening to this

26:50

day. And thank you for having me on, and I'm looking forward

26:52

to the next calendar session. I appreciate

26:55

it. Nicole Hammer, thanks to you as

26:57

always. Thanks, Jody. And Elian

26:59

Jackson, thanks to you.

27:00

My pleasure. Thanks for

27:03

listening. Our researcher and producer is Jacob

27:05

Feldman. Our producer is Britney

27:07

Brown. Our transcripts which you can find

27:09

on our website are done by Kala

27:11

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