0:01

and green fields

0:04

Carillion and

0:08

the food

0:14

and I'm

0:26

from, Rock

0:29

and Dick

0:35

poop From

0:42

the Godfather to Santa for woman From

0:45

Raging Bull to Goodfellas soon They

0:47

got our phones assume they got

0:49

our houses soon They got us

0:52

their performances have created a legacy

0:54

of landmark films. I want

0:56

full surveillance That's 24 hours round the

0:58

clock. We never close open seven days

1:00

a week now for the first time

1:03

America's two most electrifying

1:05

actors collide Hello

1:09

and welcome to the this had Oscar buzz podcast

1:12

the only podcast shaking our ass and grief over

1:14

our dead horse Every week on

1:16

this had Oscar buzz We'll be talking about a

1:18

different movie that once upon a time had lofty

1:20

Academy Award aspirations But for some reason or another

1:22

it all went wrong the Oscar hopes died and

1:25

we are here to perform the autopsy I'm your

1:27

host Joe Reed I am here as always with

1:29

my counterpart from the other side of the arbitrary

1:31

social divide that is cop and criminal Chris file

1:33

Oh Chris, I'm really upset I am mad that

1:36

I didn't get you screaming that I have a

1:38

great ass Well, I should have actually now that

1:40

you mentioned that my alright We're bringing in our

1:42

guests right now because I need to have our

1:44

guest opinion when I when I say this We

1:47

have with us, of course, we are doing Michael

1:49

Mann's heat So we had to bring in there

1:51

was nobody else we could have with us Returning

1:54

for the first time since our mud episode

1:57

vultures TV critic and all-around pop

1:59

culture commenter, the

2:01

great Roxana Haddadi.

2:03

Welcome, Roxana. Thank

2:06

you guys so much. You know, the introduction

2:08

you gave me before like the TV critics,

2:10

it also could have been Bilga Abiri. There.

2:14

Because Bilga loves heat so

2:16

much. Oh, yes. Shout

2:18

out to Bilga. Yes, Bilga is the sort

2:21

of pop culture's preeminent heat

2:23

commentator. Michael Dinsley. Yes,

2:26

exactly. My thing

2:28

with the she's got a great ass scene

2:30

beyond everything else, beyond the fact that Al

2:33

Pacino has said later that he's that he played the

2:35

characters if he had a coke problem, which like obviously

2:38

beyond the fact that Chris right now

2:40

has a background of bug eyed Al

2:43

Pacino with in in in the middle

2:45

of of shouting that is

2:47

he starts to say he

2:50

starts to say because she's

2:52

got a big ass right. Well, you can see

2:54

him stop saying it. Yeah. And

2:56

to me, I'm like, that's

2:58

sweet of Al Pacino to think of Ashley

3:00

Judd in that moment and be like, I'm

3:03

not trying to say she has a big ass. She just has

3:05

a great ass. I'm like, this was the 90s. This

3:08

was the 90s when Big Ass was not, you

3:11

know, valued in our culture the

3:13

ways that it that it can be today when

3:16

I have called quite controversially

3:18

with Chris File. I've called Barry Keogan

3:20

in Saltburn a

3:23

fat ass short king because I do

3:25

think he has a fat ass in

3:27

that movie to like read the

3:29

complimentary. And Chris is trying to tell

3:31

me that Barry Barry's ass in Saltburn

3:33

was not everything that I

3:35

made it out to be when I was very young and have

3:38

a big ass in that movie. Or does he just know how

3:40

to move his hips? That's all I have to say. I don't

3:42

remember it being particularly big.

3:45

I mean, I remember what happened. Obviously,

3:48

shapely bum, but yeah, you

3:50

know, I don't think it's

3:52

maybe it's just in the

3:54

sliding scale of Hollywood leading man.

3:56

You know what I mean? Like this was kind of

3:58

like a real like juicy. ass

4:01

like can we name some people cuz

4:04

I'm trying to think I mean I

4:06

was having Harvey Guillen and

4:08

well Harvey Guillen sure sure yeah

4:11

Chris Evans has like a real like like

4:14

shapely is probably how I would describe that

4:16

like that yeah sweat pants scene when he's

4:18

like hitting the heavy bag or whatever like

4:20

that's good there's stuff

4:22

back there there's something like right

4:24

on the tip of my tongue

4:27

and I'm gonna not meant to be literal

4:30

and I think about this important

4:35

while we are though I'm glad we're

4:37

on the subject of salt burn though

4:39

because you have written perhaps the definitive

4:42

article on salt burn as far as

4:44

I am concerned by talking about Jacob

4:46

Allordy's eyebrow piercing when I previously in

4:49

this podcast I have

4:51

talked to Chris about how my ideal sort

4:54

of hot guy

4:56

fantasy from my like teens and early

4:58

20s was a guy who had

5:00

an eyebrow piercing

5:02

and one of those small little

5:04

thin hoops in in

5:07

the gate year you know

5:09

the and so like

5:12

Jacob Allordy in salt burn I

5:14

think Emerald Fennell had like found a way

5:16

to access my own personal subconscious and so

5:19

I want to I want to have you

5:21

sort of hold court a little bit on

5:23

your feelings about Jacob Allordy's eyebrow piercing hi

5:26

well thank you so much for

5:28

this incredible praise eyebrow piercing is

5:31

so good because I think it

5:33

does tap into your brain of

5:35

like a certain kind of

5:38

hot male figure which

5:41

I don't know if that figure really

5:43

works like in 2023 but

5:47

that's why the 2006 choice is

5:49

so perfect because like yes all

5:51

of us were all like old and we

5:53

all remember the 2006 feeling

5:55

of seeing a guy with an eyebrow piercing you

5:57

were like oh my goodness sexy

6:00

and like a little bit edgy

6:02

and like will he kiss me? Did

6:05

I ever tell, Chris, have I ever told the story

6:08

on this podcast of the one class I took in

6:10

college where I, on

6:13

the very first day, I sat next to this

6:16

really cute boy whose hair was dyed like

6:19

fire engine red and had an eyebrow

6:21

piercing. And I intentionally sat next to

6:23

him because like, I was still, and this is still like,

6:25

I'm in college, but I'm not out yet. And

6:27

I was probably around that time where I was like,

6:30

I need to like seek out vectors to like force

6:32

me out of the closet, even if I was like

6:34

unconsciously doing it. So I sat next to

6:36

this boy and we became like, it wasn't a class with

6:38

a lab, but we were like project,

6:40

we were partners on like whatever projects that

6:43

class would have you do because we were

6:45

sitting next right next to each other. And

6:47

so we were friendly and we were doing

6:49

projects and whatnot. And I

6:52

even think like we, like, he

6:54

like came to my house to do a project one time or whatever.

6:57

And then at some point during the

6:59

semester, I found out he was dating

7:01

a girl and I was so crushed.

7:03

And I was one of those things

7:05

was like, first of all, like

7:08

bummer, but also like my intuition was so

7:10

off. And like, that was when I first

7:12

like really was getting like, oh, my like

7:14

these, these superficial indicators are not all they

7:17

are cracked up to be. And just because

7:19

a boy looks different doesn't mean that he's

7:21

necessarily queer, but. I do think

7:23

eyebrow piercing, especially in the aughts and

7:26

mid aughts does

7:28

read as possible bisexual. Yes,

7:31

I agree. I mean, it probably was not

7:33

out of the question, but I was certainly

7:35

not in any space confidence

7:37

wise to be testing those waters.

7:40

Right to be like, Hey, have

7:42

you considered? Have you ever

7:44

considered? I couldn't help

7:46

but wondering when I looked at your eyebrow piercing. Did

7:49

I love him? Was I in love with him? Who can

7:51

say? Who can

7:53

say? Like largely, I think

7:55

plot wise does not work,

7:58

but all those little details, like the eye. eyebrow

8:00

piercing and like the ominous Butler like

8:02

those are all fun and I think

8:04

do But

8:06

that's like the bizarre. I don't know That's like the

8:09

bizarre balance of this movie where it's like I

8:11

don't think your messaging does anything that you want

8:13

it to do But like I

8:15

think as a message movie, I think you're right

8:18

that it doesn't do anything I think small burn

8:20

is incredibly fun movie and I and I will

8:22

keep it in my heart that way Yeah,

8:24

it's a movie. That's like in mid-aut Tumbler

8:27

board like it's 100% even

8:29

though it's it's

8:31

song and movies choices Violate

8:34

the time-space continuum and I get the on by that

8:37

all of those songs are from 2008 and Alon

8:41

has an emerald fennel voodoo doll now

8:43

I swear he watched that movie and

8:45

is like he's putting out a hit

8:47

on her. I Think

8:50

that's Kyle Turner. That's that it was street camp that

8:52

thinks it's gay With

8:58

that I'm fine with that if you

9:00

have your character like Slurping

9:03

up come from a bathroom drain like you're not

9:05

not queer. You know what I mean? Like there

9:07

is yes, you know, there's something going on there.

9:09

There's something going on there But yeah, it made

9:11

me I mean Priscilla is what made me think

9:13

like Oh Jacob already like doesn't suck because

9:15

I'd only seen him In euphoria in which

9:17

yeah, he's playing a bad character, but he's

9:19

also playing him badly Yeah,

9:21

um, but I don't watch euphoria. I have

9:23

no that I have no business watching euphoria

9:26

No, it's you don't it's purely a professional

9:28

thing that I even though that's the only

9:30

way you can have a hit movie these

9:32

days It's the cast somebody from euphoria. Yeah,

9:34

pretty much but in this and Priscilla checkable

9:36

Lordy good Yeah,

9:38

okay moving on to

9:40

our next preheat topic This

9:44

also comes from the the vulture slack

9:46

that we were talking about before he

9:48

started recording People on

9:51

the vulture slack didn't know this is

9:53

okay pre like fair warning

9:55

listeners I'm about to obnoxiously talk about

9:57

promotional swag that we get at the

10:00

of the year. Now, not all of

10:02

us get it, and not all of us

10:04

get everything. That's true. Some of

10:06

us get things that others don't. Some

10:08

of us, like it's a very kind

10:10

of like, who knows what mailing list

10:12

you're on. Right. We're not out here,

10:15

you know, constantly posting, we're not people

10:17

on this podcast who are constantly posting

10:19

photos of all of our swag. Many

10:21

of us, professionally, are not allowed to

10:23

keep the swag. There is like a

10:25

limit of swag that you can keep.

10:27

Interesting. As a freelancer, I keep

10:29

it all. I don't

10:32

keep it all, actually, because there's a

10:34

thing. And our friend Jordan Hoffman has

10:36

written about this before, about the promotional

10:38

swag that Netflix used to send out

10:41

exclusively, were these like fantastically

10:43

huge and heavy and cumbersome coffee

10:45

table books. Yeah. Beautiful. But like,

10:48

what am I going to do

10:50

with all these coffee table books?

10:52

Like, once they

10:54

start accumulating, I donated them like, I should say, I don't

10:56

know if I should say this, I

10:59

donated them all to my local library.

11:01

Like, don't tell Netflix, I guess. But

11:05

I guess now people at my local. It's better than reselling them on

11:07

eBay, which I see them being reselled

11:09

on eBay all the time. And at the

11:11

same time, it's like, if

11:13

you are a victim of our industry and you

11:15

need to flip a coffee table book you got

11:17

for free for $200, more power to you, actually.

11:20

Oh, fuck yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But so Netflix this

11:22

year, I've only gotten one

11:24

coffee table book so far. I got a Rustin

11:26

coffee table book. So they've been like diversifying their

11:28

swag, which is really fun. One

11:32

of the things, the Naiad box

11:34

was my favorite. You got like a

11:36

really nice water bottle, but then you

11:38

also got this large sort of cloth,

11:41

big microfiber cloth with the figure of

11:43

a swimming person and Naiad written on

11:45

it. And so in our group chat,

11:47

me and Chris and Katie Rich, we

11:50

were sort of puzzling over this. And

11:52

I think Chris was the one who

11:54

was like, I think it's a towel.

11:56

And the rest of us were

11:59

sort of unsure. And then my. friend, Matthew Rodriguez, who

12:01

has also previously been on the show, was

12:04

like, no, I talked to my

12:06

partner. It's definitely a towel. It's one

12:08

of the, it's like this like incredibly

12:10

absorbent towel that like professional swimmers

12:12

use. And so, Roxanna,

12:15

you on the Vulture Slack were the

12:17

only person who had that in towel,

12:19

because people on the Vulture Slack thought

12:21

it was tapestry, which you could blame

12:23

them. Yeah, it's kind of like a

12:25

wall hanging. Maybe they send a tapestry

12:27

for. I'm 100% honest, I opened it and

12:29

I was like, what is this? A tapestry? And then

12:32

my partner who actually like exercises and

12:34

like takes care of his body, he

12:36

was like, it's clearly a towel. I

12:40

don't know if it's clearly a towel, but it is a towel.

12:42

It is most definitely a towel. And I've

12:44

been using it as a flag and I

12:46

will be waving it during pride. I've

12:49

been using it as a towel after I shower and I

12:51

will tell you, it is

12:53

very absorbent and it dries incredibly quickly.

12:55

So like I have been fully

12:58

Nyad towel-pilled at this point.

13:00

So I'm into it.

13:03

Thank you, NetFlow. I do think it's so

13:05

funny that all of us were like, what

13:07

other piece of swag has puzzled us this

13:09

much? That's the real question. It's true. I

13:12

think there's an answer. More

13:14

conversation piece swag choices studios,

13:16

like send us more things

13:18

that like require a

13:20

group conversation to figure out what they are.

13:23

How many film critics does it take to figure out

13:25

the what a towel

13:28

is? All of us were like, what do

13:30

we do? Hang it? I'm

13:40

so glad. I'm so glad we are getting into these

13:42

topics on the podcast. We are essential.

13:45

All right. Rexana, as I said at the

13:47

beginning of this podcast, to

13:51

me, you were the only choice.

13:53

And I know Chris, he uses me on that

13:55

to talk about heat. You are the

13:57

person who I build a very Absolutely.

14:00

But like of the people I like chat

14:03

with semi-regularly in VMs and

14:05

whatnot, you are my

14:07

go-to for like Michael Mann fans. And

14:09

like when I sort

14:12

of have like good-naturedly sometimes sort

14:14

of like roll my eyes at Michael Mann

14:16

fans, I have to be like, Roxanna,

14:19

I really like Roxanna. So like...

14:22

It's not like me that like other movies

14:24

we have recently done, even ones that we

14:27

like, it

14:29

is a movie that there is a high

14:31

capacity for movies, for people to be annoying

14:33

about it online. Yeah, that's fair. And we

14:35

had to have you on because you're not

14:37

annoying about it. Oh, thank you so much.

14:41

Well, and it's one of those things where it's like, I don't

14:43

want to be like, I don't want to

14:45

be like setting a trap where it's like me and

14:47

Chris who like are not really Michael Mann fans and

14:49

sort of like think a lot of his

14:51

movies can be overrated. I didn't want to like lure you

14:53

in here and then be like, defend your movie. But

14:56

I'm really curious to see this movie through your

14:58

eyes because watching it again this time, there are

15:00

definitely things I really like about it. And I

15:03

easily see what so many

15:05

people see in this movie,

15:07

especially I imagine any aspiring filmmaker

15:09

looks at this movie and they're

15:11

so like wide-eyed and impressed at

15:14

how he pulled a lot of these

15:16

scenes off. That like, of course,

15:19

but like there is a poetry to this movie that

15:21

sort of escapes me and a masculineness

15:23

to this

15:26

movie that I

15:28

cannot deny turns me off. And in a way it's like, and

15:30

I don't want to think of myself as

15:32

somebody who's being like, boys,

15:34

I don't want to see it. You know what I mean? Like

15:36

that kind of thing. Like I don't want to, I feel like

15:38

that's a little, I don't want to be that simplistic. And so

15:40

I'm eager to talk about

15:43

this movie in a dialogue

15:45

with somebody who can maybe pull out

15:48

some of my more nuanced opinions

15:51

other than just like boys like the

15:53

movie, which is

15:55

reductive and wrong. But

15:58

like why You

16:00

have the fact that we asked you two. Why

16:03

is heat such a big one for you

16:05

broadly? Man, this is like a lot of

16:07

lead up to think about. I know, I'm

16:09

sorry. It's okay. It gave me time to

16:12

prepare an answer, which is like a two-part answer.

16:14

And the first part of this answer is like,

16:17

you are 100% correct, but

16:19

I think it is like

16:21

perceived, not wrongly, as

16:24

like a movie for boys. And we sort

16:26

of talked about this with mud, right? Like,

16:28

what my partner has discussed is my taste

16:30

in films, which is just guys being dudes.

16:34

Like there is like a certain level

16:36

of just like masculine

16:39

stuff happening. There's the big

16:41

shootout. There's like a car

16:43

chase. There's discussion of like,

16:46

what men do for their family? Like

16:48

there's all that stuff, right? And I

16:50

like, I naturally just respond to all

16:52

that stuff. I, maybe I,

16:55

I don't know. Maybe I

16:57

just prefer men. I don't know. Whatever. But

16:59

I think my preferred is movies about

17:01

women being unknowable to themselves. So maybe

17:03

that's like a totally different coin. Yeah,

17:06

entirely. Each of us have our

17:08

own like weird, like little micro

17:10

genres. But something that

17:12

I respond to with

17:14

man's films in particular

17:17

is I really like his

17:20

portrait of people who

17:22

are obsessed with something, like

17:25

obsessed with something larger

17:27

than themselves that they can

17:29

sort of bury

17:32

themselves in. And it's about like

17:35

simultaneously the

17:37

erasure of self in

17:39

this like larger calling, whether

17:42

that is crime, whether that

17:44

is containing crime, whatever. So

17:46

it's simultaneously about like losing

17:48

yourself in that. And

17:51

yet also holding on to

17:53

this like fierce individuality and

17:55

this idea that like only

17:58

you can exist. like these

18:00

forces outside of you can exist and

18:02

you can lose yourself in them and

18:04

you can be caught in this like

18:06

death match between like you and your

18:08

nemesis but at the end of the

18:10

day the only person you can rely

18:12

on is yourself and I'm just like

18:14

really drawn I think to

18:16

those two disparate ideas which is

18:19

like you're losing yourself in

18:21

something that is bigger than you but

18:23

you're also desperately trying to hold on

18:25

to what makes you you

18:27

so I think there's something

18:30

about that balance

18:32

which I think man does in like

18:34

all of his movies which I really respond

18:36

to and I also think and

18:39

I've like said this jokingly on twitter

18:41

but I actually believe it I

18:43

think he's probably like our most

18:46

romantic older

18:49

male director like

18:51

I think he is genuinely like very

18:54

interested in what men

18:56

and women say and don't

18:58

say to each other and like

19:01

the way that relationships can both

19:03

be again extremely

19:06

like obsessive and like

19:08

sensual and romantic

19:10

and also unable to sustain

19:13

those forces and sort of

19:15

like pairing each other

19:17

apart so there's a lot of like

19:20

I think his movies are all just about like the

19:22

friction of trying to understand

19:25

who you are when at the same

19:27

time you're devoting your life to something

19:29

that is larger than you does

19:32

that make sense yeah I think that 100% I

19:34

think that was my

19:36

favorite stuff about Ferrari yes

19:38

I still haven't seen

19:40

Ferrari but go on I want to

19:43

hear your thoughts on Ferrari oh okay

19:45

we'll get into it we'll get into

19:47

it I'm very with you on this

19:49

even though I can I can run

19:51

hot and cold on Michael

19:53

Mann and like that's I think some of

19:55

the I think all of that is the

19:57

best stuff about heat and the poetry of

20:00

the movie. I think my holdout

20:02

on heat is just the plot

20:04

mac- like I love all of

20:07

that but I need it like

20:09

to hinge around more interesting plot

20:11

machinations which is like I

20:13

realized that that's half of the that's

20:16

half of missing the boat on heat

20:18

is like if you're interested in the

20:20

plot of heat yeah you're not really

20:22

signing up for the sort of archetypal

20:24

thing of like the bank heist as

20:26

like yeah like I just

20:28

wish don't you think he made it

20:30

the archetype that it is now

20:32

in that honor of cinema like

20:35

hugely like yes it is a

20:37

sort of killer of that genre but

20:39

even going into the movie I think

20:42

there is some sort of cowboy

20:44

ideal of a bank heist in terms

20:47

of like like Pacino had already been

20:49

in you know this iconic bank heist

20:51

movie in dog day afternoon and stuff

20:53

like that and there is

20:56

I think an acknowledgement in the

20:58

movie even if sort of just you

21:00

know unspokenly that this

21:02

is this sort of

21:06

great you know one of the great types

21:09

of movies for especially like movies for

21:11

dudes right like movies about dudes being

21:13

dudes and it's just like and

21:16

it's this you know it's a

21:18

the bank job you know what I mean like you don't really

21:20

have to explain it more than that of just like yeah why

21:22

are we doing this because that's like reasons

21:25

you know what I mean like there

21:27

are no quite literally this is a

21:29

movie about well we have to do

21:31

this because reasons like this is who

21:33

I am like job I don't

21:35

you know like I think that it is

21:38

playing with a lot of those yeah like

21:40

cliches but I think it is doing it

21:43

in a way that at least makes me

21:45

think about like

21:48

okay this is gonna get like too

21:51

revealing for myself but like go

21:53

for it as a person I

21:56

am prone to wondering like

21:59

what the fuck are we living for? Like

22:01

what are any of this for?

22:04

And so I tried to like

22:06

transfer that like

22:09

listlessness and aimlessness into

22:11

like a larger thematic

22:13

belief system that makes

22:16

me think like surely what we

22:18

do is valid

22:20

because it is serving a larger

22:22

purpose. So I feel like

22:24

I personally am always battling my

22:27

own inner loneliness.

22:30

And maybe it's too far of a reach to

22:32

say that I think this film is about

22:34

men who like choose to be lonely, and

22:37

then realize that that loneliness is

22:39

empty and they need more but

22:41

then also realize that their actions

22:43

have inhibited them from ever having

22:45

more. No, that's exactly what

22:47

this movie

22:50

is about though. I don't think that

22:52

that's like no, I don't think that's the movie. Yeah.

22:55

I mean, because this

22:57

is a movie that's like about dudes, but

23:00

it's like dude, dude being

23:02

dudes, but the dudes are sitting

23:04

around being like, man, it sucks to be a

23:06

dude, like, yeah. And I think that's why

23:08

like, as much as Michael

23:10

Mann is like, the guy's guy, I

23:13

do think in a lot of ways

23:15

that is not entirely a correct

23:18

reading of the fact that I think that he

23:20

is like interrogating masculinity

23:22

all the time, like all

23:24

of his films. And

23:27

I think he is really interested in that

23:29

moment where a cold,

23:32

closed off male figure

23:34

who is told that he can

23:36

only succeed with that kind of

23:38

persona realizes that

23:40

it's bullshit and falls

23:42

in love. Like all of his movies

23:44

sort of have that moment. And

23:47

like Miami Vice has that like collateral

23:50

has that. The last of the Mohicans

23:52

has that and Black Hat has that.

23:54

So I just I think he's really

23:57

fascinated in like the choice

23:59

that you have. to make between

24:01

living for yourself and

24:03

living for the idea of yourself.

24:06

I think those are different things and

24:08

he's always trying to navigate the

24:11

space between them. So

24:13

yeah, it's definitely dude shit. I

24:15

just think it's like, when

24:18

people say that like, Den of Thieves is as

24:20

good as heat, I'm like, please fucking leave.

24:23

Or like the town which very much copies like

24:25

the bank. Oh,

24:31

I just think I just think a heat

24:33

is far more like internally

24:36

minded. Like the heist is

24:38

incredibly important. But I

24:40

feel like the heist is like very secondary to

24:42

what this movie is doing with

24:44

the central like romantic relationships.

24:47

The thing that you said that sort of that I

24:49

responded to most is this idea of the individual

24:53

sort of making

24:55

the space for himself amid what

24:59

he has to do because the what the my favorite

25:01

Michael Mann movies are probably The Insider

25:04

and Ali, which sort of makes it

25:06

a shade because there's two Oscar movies.

25:08

You know what I mean? Like

25:11

cliched. No, I think that's different from

25:13

what most people. The

25:16

insider is is that Russell

25:19

Crowe has to be. Has

25:23

to act as an individual, right? He cannot

25:25

act as like even with 60 Minutes or

25:27

whatever that like trying to

25:30

provide him with cover or trying to provide him with

25:32

some sort of a safety net. Ultimately,

25:34

he has to make the decision to act

25:36

completely alone. Yeah. And

25:39

he has to act on this

25:41

like massively huge and on, you

25:43

know, a near unbreakable corporate

25:46

villain. And

25:49

he like so it's that so it's then the choice.

25:51

And I think the movie is sort of asking what

25:54

what does it require of

25:57

a person to make that individual

25:59

choice? 100%. And

26:02

I think when you were describing, you know,

26:04

I believe that's exactly and Ali is a

26:06

little bit different. Ali is and I, I,

26:10

now I'm, I don't think I'm wrong when

26:12

I say this, but like, correct me if

26:14

I am. Ali is his only real movie

26:16

about a real person, right? His own, I

26:18

think, primary, right? What's

26:21

that? Oh, public? Yeah, good. Although God helped me

26:23

if I can remember a single thing about public

26:25

enemies at this point. I think public enemies is

26:28

better than we all remember, but I think it's

26:30

difficult to get past the Johnny Depp of it

26:32

all. Probably. The Bank Heist stuff

26:34

is, I think at least the Bank Heist

26:37

stuff is more interesting to me in

26:39

public enemies than it is in Heat.

26:41

Heat is almost like I want him

26:43

to just allow all of these characters

26:46

to be who they are and allow

26:48

him to go full like Shakespearean tragedy

26:50

Greek theater with this movie where everybody

26:53

is talking about their feelings. And I,

26:55

I feel like it's kind of ruthless

26:57

in the actual action of it. And

26:59

like, I watched this movie

27:01

and I almost want no Bank

27:04

Heist stuff. And I just want them all

27:06

talking about being how

27:08

they hate their lives and they hate the

27:10

corner that they've backed themselves in. Don't you

27:13

think that's the decision scene where they

27:15

have to decide and you

27:17

get the great size more of the action

27:19

is the juice? Like I feel like that

27:21

scene is like exactly

27:24

that where they're all talking about like

27:26

why they're doing this. But

27:29

no, that's I mean, like that's the stuff in this movie that

27:31

I love and I do really

27:33

gloss onto and that I think is great.

27:35

I just I wish I cared more about

27:37

what was actually happening in. But

27:41

to sort of finish my my thing, Ali, like

27:43

very briefly. No, Joe, you

27:45

can't. That seems to me

27:47

like the only kind of biopic that man

27:49

could possibly do, which is a

27:52

person who has no peer. You know

27:54

what I mean? Like Ali could

27:57

not help but act as an

27:59

individual. Because first of all, he's

28:01

in an individual sport. But second of all, Muhammad Ali

28:03

had no peer, had no

28:06

collective way he could act. So

28:08

he is acting as an individual

28:11

amid the sporting, the sport of boxing,

28:13

the sporting culture in general, the American

28:16

culture in general, the American government, and

28:18

all that sort of stuff. And

28:21

so that to me also sort of

28:23

tracks with this idea of how does

28:27

one person make their decisions

28:30

to act within the structure.

28:34

I love your read of Ali because it

28:36

makes me so curious what you think

28:38

about Ferrari when you see it. Oh,

28:41

interesting. Oh, right. Ferrari, of

28:43

course, is a real person. Yeah. Because Ferrari,

28:45

Chris, would you agree that Ferrari is sort

28:47

of like playing with the same like Ferrari

28:50

as a singular figure within

28:52

like post-war Italy and

28:55

like the pressures economically,

28:57

socially, and personally that he has? What

28:59

do you think, Chris? We need your

29:01

take. Yeah, 100%. That

29:04

was kind of, I mean, the

29:06

marriage stuff was my favorite stuff about Ferrari.

29:08

Imagine the scenes with Penelope Cruz were my

29:10

favorite things about me. She's

29:13

terrific. She's, this is what would

29:15

happen if we saw Penelope Cruz give her

29:17

Lady Macbeth, give her Harper Pitt, we would

29:19

get this performance. Yes,

29:24

I think of his filmography. It is

29:27

maybe close. It's

29:30

probably somewhere between Ali and public

29:32

enemies. Yeah. All

29:38

right, I would say just in terms

29:40

of aesthetics of like what the character

29:42

dynamic is. A lot

29:44

of what Joe described, like you were just

29:46

saying, Roxana, is it in terms of like,

29:49

they're both also sport movies. Yeah. So

29:51

there's that. But again, like singular sport

29:54

movies, right? Like you're entirely in charge

29:56

of like your own destiny

29:58

to a certain point. Point

30:01

because it's not a team really

30:03

like they race as a team,

30:05

but they're really racing individually Um,

30:08

they're in the box. Yeah, yeah,

30:10

they're in a box. You're contained you're

30:12

trapped basically Sorry so

30:15

good. Okay. Yeah anyway Roxanna

30:18

we're gonna have you Deliver

30:20

the 60 second plot description for heat

30:23

but before you do so you can

30:25

take a second and maybe collect your

30:27

thoughts Well, Chris, I'm gonna ask you

30:29

to promote our patreon turbulent

30:31

brilliance for a minute. What

30:34

is the number one? Reason

30:36

that brought us here listeners

30:39

if you don't know about our patreon

30:41

we haven't hyped it as much because

30:43

Much to our surprise our sponsor

30:46

level we call them our sugar

30:48

daddies basically immediately

30:50

sold out and if you We

30:53

currently as of recording have two slots that opened

30:55

up if you want to sign up at that

30:57

level We very very

30:59

much appreciate you But because

31:02

there are sugar daddies have

31:04

consecutively for three months been at that

31:06

tier They got to pick an episode

31:08

on the main feed and the first

31:10

response that we got was from James

31:12

telling us we are doing heat

31:15

so This

31:17

is a fun way for those listeners to Have

31:20

some control over the show. James.

31:22

We thank you. We celebrate you.

31:24

James wants to share his oscar origin

31:27

story uh Which uh

31:29

any of these episodes that we do It'll be

31:31

a little bit of fun where you can hear

31:33

from our listeners and their oscar origin story

31:35

like we usually have with first-time guests Uh,

31:39

james talked a little bit about

31:41

coming from an evangelical background and

31:43

movies being the source to connect

31:45

with family Here's

31:47

what james says. I don't have one

31:49

single oscar ceremony. It's more of a slow build

31:52

from 97 to 99 James

31:55

relatable. Uh, I wanted to watch the 1990

31:58

seven oscars, but I didn't even see Titanic until

32:00

after it won Best Picture. I watched the

32:02

1998 Oscars where I had

32:04

more of the movies and learned

32:06

more about how the Oscars work. I

32:09

can make fun of the time interpretive

32:11

dance score performances, but I also loved

32:13

them. James, absolute same. 1999

32:16

was the first year I saw nearly everything and

32:18

was, shall we say, conversant, even

32:20

though I was still a high school

32:23

student in Ohio. James, get

32:26

at me where you were in Ohio. 1997

32:29

was my year and that's when I became a

32:31

film person for life. I don't know that I

32:33

have anything else to say about the 1999 Oscars

32:37

other than it was the best year for film

32:39

in my lifetime and they still managed to get

32:41

them all wrong. Yeah. James,

32:44

we maybe agree with you. But

32:48

James, thank you for giving us heat to talk about

32:50

today. We of course

32:52

had to bring Roxana on because all of

32:55

the reasons we discussed. But once again, join

32:57

us at this had Oscar buzz turbulent brilliance.

32:59

That is our patreon. You can join for

33:01

five dollars a month or if there are

33:03

slots open at the sponsor level you can

33:05

do so as well. What

33:08

do you get when you're over there,

33:11

Joe? We get two regular episodes every

33:13

month. Two episodes a month. You're gonna

33:15

get exceptions. Movies that

33:17

follow the this had Oscar buzz

33:19

rubric of disappointment and high expectations.

33:22

But managed to get an Oscar nomination or

33:24

two. Most recently this month we have an

33:26

episode on the mirror has two faces. We've

33:29

also done movies like Australia, The

33:32

Lovely Bones, Pleasant Phil and nine.

33:34

And then on the 15th of the

33:36

month through you're getting what we call an excursion, which is

33:39

a detour and deep

33:41

dive into this had Oscar

33:43

buzz ephemera. We've talked about my

33:47

experience at Magic Mike Live, the greatest night

33:49

of my life. We

33:51

recapped the 1996 MTV Movie

33:53

Awards, which we can kind of sort

33:55

of talk about in this episode. We

33:59

did a recap. of Hollywood

34:01

Reporter's Actress Roundtable from 2016.

34:05

And then we're peppering in some

34:08

random call-in episodes where our patrons

34:10

can call in, ask us a

34:12

question, and we will answer it.

34:15

So sign up for this at

34:17

OscarBuzz Turbulent Brilliance over at patreon.com/this

34:20

at OscarBuzz. I will also say

34:22

if you are a member of

34:24

the Patreon, check

34:27

out the comments on each of

34:29

the episodes that we post there

34:31

because there's some good conversation. And

34:33

also I just today

34:35

posted an update in our Mirror Has

34:38

Two Faces thread about I found out

34:40

where they filmed the where

34:42

her apartment building is in the movie

34:44

and where they filmed those insane end

34:46

credits where Barbra Streisand and

34:49

Jeff Bridges are dancing and then

34:51

humping each other, I'm just gonna say it. On the streets of

34:53

New York City. Full on dry humping in the streets of New

34:55

York City. So I managed to find the address of

34:57

the place and I also found a fantastic

34:59

New York Times article that talks about the

35:01

tumult that Barbra and her crew brought to

35:03

the Upper West Side in 1996. So

35:07

definitely worth the price of admission

35:09

to chat with us in the

35:11

comments on the Patreon. That

35:14

article is definitely one of the things Ms.

35:16

Streisand leans to, like kind of nods to

35:18

in the audio book. She's like, people talked

35:20

about how we didn't talk to the neighborhood,

35:22

but we did. It wasn't that big of

35:25

a deal. Something like

35:27

that. It's an amazing article.

35:29

Worth forking over $5 just

35:32

to chat about it. To

35:34

go and talk about it with the rest

35:36

of our patrons. Exactly, exactly. All right, so

35:38

we are talking

35:40

about Heat in this episode from 1995, directed by Michael

35:42

Mann, written by Michael

35:44

Mann. We'll talk about the TV

35:47

movie origins of this and

35:49

whatnot. Starring

35:52

Al Pacino and Robert De Niro. We

35:54

will definitely talk about the historic nature

35:56

of that pairing. Also Val Kilmer, Ashley

35:59

Judd. Ashley Judd's lip

36:01

liner in one scene, which I

36:03

thought was very important. So good.

36:05

So good that this movie puts the blonde

36:07

people together so much that it has to make

36:10

one of them a blonde. Trust me, I'm going

36:12

to talk about that. John

36:15

Voight's mullet, Tom Sizemore, Diane

36:17

Venora, Amy Brenneman, Amy

36:19

Brenneman's accent, Natalie Portman, Michael

36:22

T. Williamson, Wes Studi, Ted

36:24

Levine, William Fickner, Dennis Haysbert,

36:27

Tom Noonan, a weaselly little

36:29

sliver of Jeremy Piven. There

36:31

are a few other cameoing. Are

36:34

you saying Hank Azaria? Oh

36:36

my God, Hank Azaria. I totally forgot. God,

36:38

Hank Azaria. Hank Azaria not being ready for

36:40

the, she's got a great ass, my broad

36:42

chord, my friend. Henry Rollins and his big

36:44

ass neck. Oh, we got to

36:46

talk about Henry Rollins. That was my letterbox review

36:49

of this. It's like this is a cinema classic

36:51

of the Al Pacino beats the shit out of

36:53

Henry Rollins genre, which was

36:55

a wild time. A

36:59

wild time had by all. This

37:01

premiered, opened wide on

37:03

December 15th, 1995. It

37:06

finished, I'm trying to remember this

37:08

off the top of my head, it finished in

37:10

third place. The movie that opened number one that

37:13

weekend was. Jumanji, baby.

37:15

Thank you. Wow. Fantastic.

37:17

Imagine going to the movies and like just

37:19

like punting your kids into the theater to

37:21

see Jumanji and then like you're going to

37:23

go see heat. Like that. So

37:25

funny because those two movies, like, I mean,

37:28

I guess that was the 90s, but like they

37:30

don't even, it's something about them. I'm like, I

37:32

can't even hold them both in my mind. Like

37:35

the, I deeply wanted you to go the

37:37

other way. This whole box office top 10.

37:39

I'm about to give you whiplash. We talked

37:41

a little bit about in

37:44

our, I think it was our mirror has

37:46

two faces episode on the Patreon. How my

37:48

thing sometimes is like, I love looking at

37:50

old, like there's

37:52

whole Twitter accounts or used to be of

37:54

like, they would just post newspaper ads from

37:56

multiplex and my, my thought experiment

37:59

is. Okay, I can get a double

38:01

feature this day. What am I watching? Mm-hmm.

38:03

This is what I want to do. It's

38:06

very difficult on this box, on this top

38:08

10, because here it is. Jumanji. Okay. Toy

38:11

Story. Shut up. Heat.

38:13

Okay. Father of the Bride Part

38:15

2. Wow. Sabrina,

38:18

the Sabrina remake. What?

38:22

GoldenEye, the American

38:24

president, Casino, Ace

38:27

Ventura when nature calls. And

38:31

then Money Train. Dang. Casino.

38:34

Talk about Whiplash, but an impossible two

38:36

to pick. In theaters at the same

38:38

time? Yeah. That'll take you all

38:41

day. We used to have it all. Yeah. We

38:43

used to have it all. You'd spend,

38:46

you wouldn't see the sun after the

38:48

heat and casino double feature. You'd

38:50

just go before dawn and leave after

38:53

sunset. Yep. Mm-hmm. So

38:56

when we have the Oscar conversation,

38:58

put a button in Casino because

39:01

I feel like there's a little bit of these two

39:03

movies canceling each other out, but we'll talk about it.

39:05

Yeah. I think you're right.

39:07

Yeah. Roxanna, I do have my stopwatch

39:10

out. We work on this. Oh my God. Challenge

39:12

you for a 60-second plot description

39:14

with the caveat that if anybody

39:17

who's listened to us knows that we routinely do

39:19

go over. So do not worry about that. But

39:22

do your best. We're all counting on you. And

39:25

let me know when you're ready. Yeah,

39:27

I'm ready. All right. Begin.

39:30

So Heat is a movie about two

39:33

sides of the

39:35

cop-criminal divide. So

39:37

there's a

39:39

team of felons,

39:41

convicts, turned bank robbers,

39:43

heist guides who are led

39:46

by Robert De Niro, Neil

39:48

McCauley. And the one that's on the front

39:50

of the crew is incredibly hot. And

39:52

they just do crimes and are

39:54

hot. And then on

39:56

the other side of it are

39:58

the LAPD detectives. Oh

40:00

my God, led by Al Pacino's Vincent

40:03

Hanna and everyone on his team is also

40:05

hot. West Studio is there, he's hot.

40:08

And the two sides are like locked in

40:10

this like big eternal battle

40:12

of like existential

40:15

dilemmas and sadness and loneliness. But really there's

40:17

like a bank heist and they're on opposite

40:19

sides of the bank heist. And

40:22

then they face off in a diner

40:24

and that's very important as well. And

40:26

then they face off at the airport which is a great

40:29

way to end a film. And I

40:31

think I'm almost out of time so that's

40:33

my plot description. Hot men being sad. Boom,

40:36

only seven seconds over. Well

40:38

done. Well done. That is quite

40:41

a feat. I would also argue, much

40:44

to what I was already saying, the

40:46

plot kind of doesn't matter with heat.

40:48

The rhythms of this

40:52

existential purgatory

40:54

that all of these men are basically

40:57

in and the

41:00

women that surround them as far

41:02

as like these poor,

41:04

unhappy women. Oh man, oh man.

41:08

I want to do them all

41:10

in like their own separate section.

41:13

So but before we get to

41:15

that, you mentioned obviously the

41:17

De Niro, Pacino face off in

41:19

the diner. And we'll

41:21

get to like that scene. I know it keeps saying we'll get to it.

41:23

Trust me, we will get to all of it. We will. I

41:26

know sometimes I say we'll get to it

41:28

and then we forget to but like I

41:30

promise. No, we will. We will. But like

41:32

so there are two diners of note in

41:35

this plus whatever kind of establishment De Niro

41:37

and Amy Brenneman meet in, which is like,

41:40

is it a bookstore cafe or is that

41:42

two separate places? Because

41:44

we see them in the bookstore. I think

41:46

it's the bookstore cafe. Shout out to Borders,

41:48

which used to have this. Yes. So

41:51

besides that, there are two diner scenes. The

41:54

one where Pacino and De Niro

41:57

meet in, but there's also a place to

42:00

It actually shows up a couple of times and I

42:02

think it's the same place that the

42:04

Mulholland drive Diner scene takes place

42:06

in I'm like pretty sure Okay

42:10

It might be get at my go there

42:12

if you know I tried to look in the IMDB

42:14

trivia but like no surprise all of

42:16

the IMDB trivia is like People

42:19

used to think that DeNiro and Pacino weren't in the

42:21

same room and they filmed this and yeah Yeah, you

42:23

know like all the stuff like yeah, these are all

42:25

the like real life like bank robberies that were inspired

42:28

by the

42:30

heat The

42:32

diner that's the imp I want to know

42:35

not the diner with the big scenes the

42:37

diner that the They

42:39

hustle Wayne grow out of at the beginning and

42:41

then there's a scene towards the end where they're

42:43

also back at that diner Yeah in the daytime

42:46

Or not the IMDB. You're getting the

42:48

most important part of that first diner

42:50

scene, which is Tom Sizemore

42:54

down that one guy It's

42:56

hot very extremely hot honestly The best moment

42:58

of Tom Sizemore's career that guy looks up

43:00

from his paper and he's like what's going

43:02

on over there after DeNiro Slams Wayne gross

43:04

head down on the table on size words

43:06

like mean mind your business. Yeah. Yeah, it's

43:08

very Pete Tom you had a lot of

43:11

problems, but yes the great work in this

43:13

film Tom is the one who was in

43:15

a relationship with Heidi Fleiss right? I

43:18

believe so. Yes, IRL Yeah, sometimes I

43:20

get Tom Sizemore and Michael Mann sort

43:22

of personal lives confused Not

43:24

Michael man Michael Madsen. Sorry. Sorry Michael.

43:27

Yeah, Michael Madsen No,

43:30

sorry You know who

43:33

Michael Mann though looks like as I watched

43:35

a couple of interviews Michael Mann and Steven

43:37

Bocco look Similar enough that I'm

43:39

like sometimes I'll see a flash of one and

43:41

I'll think of it and they're sort of like

43:43

those are interesting Millie used to sort of paper

43:46

over each other the NYPD blew up at all.

43:48

Yeah, what are you putting in my attack? I

43:50

just dropped it in the chat according to IMDB.

43:52

So Major

43:54

caveat it is a restaurant called Kate

43:56

Mantleini and it is the only location

43:59

that is is credited to on IMDB. So

44:01

that's the one of the for the De Niro.

44:03

I'm pretty sure that's the one for the De

44:05

Niro Pacino scene. So yes. So

44:09

it's not the other. So it's not the one

44:11

that I think is Winky's in in in

44:14

Mahalan Drive. Okay, listen, I'll

44:16

figure it out as I sometimes do

44:19

I'll figure it out after the podcast

44:21

and I'll tweet. I mean, I very

44:23

much would go on like an LA

44:25

Diners from Movies tour. Oh, yeah. Oh,

44:27

absolutely. Bus tours for that. Yeah. Yeah. I

44:31

don't want to go to people's houses. Yeah. I don't

44:33

care about the famous diners from movies. Diners

44:35

and I want my typical

44:38

diner order at everyone, which

44:40

is Reuben onion, right? Oh,

44:43

blueberry pie with ice cream. Mine

44:46

is Turkey Club, no

44:49

tomato, but with these. Okay. French

44:54

fries and Lester crinkle cut. I

44:56

don't love like crinkle cutter

44:58

like to like they need to be

45:00

sort of like thin and crispy like

45:03

and then if they have lemon meringue

45:05

pie, I'm getting lemon meringue pie like

45:07

that is good.

45:10

If not, I'll just get a

45:12

milkshake and no actual dessert. Sorry,

45:15

my food order makes me think it

45:17

makes it look like I'm a five

45:19

year old. I'm getting a ham and

45:21

cheese omelet and I'm getting grits, just

45:23

sugar and bottomless coffee. That sounds good. Why

45:26

would that be a five year old is a five

45:28

year old drinking bottomless coffee? Well,

45:31

I mean, I probably was the

45:35

no, it's just like, I don't

45:37

know. I just feel like you get

45:40

eggs at a diner. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

45:42

Okay. You keep a breakfast. All right.

45:44

I do that. I met Denny's. I'm

45:46

getting moons over my hammy. That's just

45:48

like that's what's happening. So I want

45:50

anything that was on a flat top because

45:52

like I don't have a flat top at

45:54

home. Right. That's a good point. So it's

45:56

definitely like a Ruben something that needs to

45:58

be like frisk. or like

46:01

a huge sack of pancakes because pancakes

46:03

are impossible for me to do at

46:05

home. I just suck at it. But

46:08

if I'm at a diner in Buffalo, I

46:10

might do hot dogs because I'm very regional

46:12

specific about hot dogs. And there is a

46:14

local brand here that is like the only

46:16

hot dog I will really accept. And

46:19

I might do although Buffalo has

46:21

that thing where they do like that Texas style

46:23

hot sauce that is that like hot brown gravy.

46:25

I don't

46:27

like that. Almost everybody around here likes that on their

46:29

hot dogs at a diner. I don't give

46:32

me some ketchup and relish. Are they split and put on

46:34

the flat top so they get like really crispy? When

46:37

they're on a flat top. Yes. Sometimes they come out

46:40

of like the steamer

46:42

like drawer, you know what I

46:44

mean? And they're like boiled hot dogs and like the buns are

46:46

really steamed and it's like they do that at the bills. They

46:48

used to do that at least at the bills football game. I

46:50

hope they still do. This is really

46:53

not helping how hungry I am. But I

46:55

really think it's going to move into both

46:59

of your beautiful brains. All

47:02

right. I do want to

47:04

talk a little bit about like start at the very

47:06

beginning about like the origin of this movie because Michael

47:08

Mann wanted

47:11

to make this story since essentially

47:13

forever and the movie is like

47:15

technically credited to based

47:17

on the screenplay for LA Take Down

47:20

which was a TV movie that he

47:22

had been working on. But

47:24

he's talked about how like... Also

47:26

like Mulholland Drive was supposed to be a

47:28

series. Right. But he's talked about how like

47:30

the script for Heat was

47:33

like pulled out of or no

47:37

that like the script for LA Take Down

47:39

was pulled out of the script that he

47:41

had for Heat. But so like the Heat

47:43

script sort of existed first. And

47:46

then he parceled LA Take Down out

47:48

of it? I think that's how he

47:51

put it. I watched an interview of

47:53

him from TIFF from a few

47:55

years ago. But it's... He

48:00

had like embedded himself with

48:02

a police detective

48:05

to like research for some film or

48:07

another that he was doing. And that's

48:09

where he got the story about a

48:13

cop who sort of has this like sit down

48:15

meeting with a criminal. And they

48:17

like that whole scene like actually happens to

48:19

this cop. I think the guy's name was

48:21

actually like the McCauley or

48:24

whatever. So there

48:26

was a real life inspiration

48:28

for that. I think that happened in

48:30

Chicago. And so man

48:33

has always been sort of working on this

48:35

but he had 180 page draft of heat.

48:38

And after he made thief,

48:41

he rewrote it and

48:46

was trying to shop it around. He wanted Walter

48:48

Hill to make it. And

48:51

eventually at some point somebody was just like, no,

48:53

like you should make this. Like I love these

48:55

stories about these directors who like have to be

48:57

told to like make their own. That's

48:59

from project. Yeah, essentially. And so LA

49:02

Take Down was a TV movie from 1989.

49:08

Wait, I wanna see who starred in it now cause I

49:11

always, oh, Michael Rooker was in it. Michael

49:14

Rooker was. I wanna say that Bilga,

49:17

of course, wrote about this last year.

49:19

And he says, the

49:21

incident is taken from a real life event

49:24

that man had learned about from Chuck Adamson.

49:27

A retired Chicago police investigator and later screenwriter

49:29

and producer who sometime in the 1960s ran

49:31

into a man he was

49:34

investigating, Neil McCauley, and

49:36

not knowing what to do took him out for coffee. So

49:39

yeah, so it's like, it feels like that

49:41

idea then spun into this

49:44

larger film endeavor. Looking

49:47

at the cast list, the two main stars

49:49

are actors named Scott Plank and Alex MacArthur

49:51

of whom I am not familiar. Michael

49:54

Rooker apparently played

49:56

Hannah's second in command who I guess

49:58

in the movie is. West StuDy

50:02

maybe okay, um Xander

50:04

Berkeley who was in the 1995 heat

50:08

as what's his name Ralph who's having

50:10

the affair with with Pacino's

50:13

wife he played Wayne

50:15

grow in the TV movie. So That's

50:18

interesting and also to the

50:20

surprise of no one Daniel Baldwin was in the

50:22

TV movie because like if you

50:25

if you if I said To you they

50:27

made a TV movie of the story behind

50:29

heat In

50:31

the 1980s you would say well, yes, Daniel Baldwin was

50:33

probably an end of you like He

50:37

had to be I mean why not? Yeah. Yeah,

50:39

so Obviously the big hook

50:41

for this I watched the trailer and of

50:43

course the trailer was very much like trumpeting

50:45

this this was the long-awaited

50:47

first big screen pairing for Al Pacino

50:50

and Robert De

50:52

Niro two actors who basically

50:55

owned the 1970s and Were

50:58

I think I looked at the list and I think there were

51:01

only two or three years in the

51:04

1970s where neither one of

51:06

them was nominated for an Oscar. I think it's

51:09

like general genuinely like Once

51:12

from like 72 to 81. I think

51:14

there's like maybe two years that's that

51:16

neither one of them are nominated for

51:18

an Oscar um, and then Pacino sort

51:20

of has a famously fallow period in

51:22

the 1980s and Makes

51:25

a comeback in the early 90s wins the Oscar

51:28

for scent of a woman is

51:30

in movies like Glenn Gary Glenn Ross and

51:34

Frankie and Johnny and so he's

51:36

kind of on this

51:38

career upswing at this point

51:40

and then De Niro Didn't

51:44

have that like dip point until

51:46

his dip sort of comes almost

51:48

immediately after heat and and

51:52

When he's when he sort of starts attaining that

51:54

reputation for like, oh god, like De Niro will

51:56

take any kind of role or whatever When

51:59

was Ronan? 99

52:01

and 98. Okay. So I guess

52:03

yeah, yeah, he stays solid through

52:06

that. It's really the, I think it's really

52:08

like the post analyze this sort of thing.

52:10

Like analyze this is good. But like,

52:12

I think that sort of like tips

52:14

the scales to remember he did

52:16

that horror movie with Dakota

52:19

fanning. My god

52:21

family. Is that

52:24

what it was called? God send. I can't remember

52:26

the sound thing. Yeah. Um, but like there was,

52:28

there was just. Stardust. So it was like, he

52:30

was taking the risks.

52:33

Right. Yeah. Sure. 80% of the

52:35

risks were like, yikes. Yeah.

52:37

Well, I'm like, I think

52:39

immediately after he, he does the fan, which

52:41

is a Tony Scott movie, which

52:44

is probably one of the least like

52:47

fondly remembered Tony Scott, even like.

52:49

He talked about Tony Scott. Yeah.

52:51

Like, like Tony Scott has, is

52:53

definitely a filmmaker who, whose career

52:57

has been evaluated and reevaluated and reevaluated.

53:00

And like, there's, there's a lot of,

53:02

um, sort

53:04

of a second more appreciative look at Tony

53:06

Scott's filmography. And even in that, nobody really

53:08

is like, you know, we should watch the

53:11

fan again. It's just like, yeah, nobody really

53:13

wants to watch. Just forget that one existed.

53:15

But Ben DeNiro would also do things like

53:17

he would be a priest in

53:19

sleepers. He would be the doctor in Marvin's

53:21

room. He would be, um, like

53:25

these really great expectations, right?

53:27

Small roles in things or

53:29

like, and then like the

53:31

real disasters with like Rocky

53:33

and Bullwinkle and, um,

53:36

uh, 15 minutes with Edward

53:39

Burns. He eventually, right. Showtime.

53:41

Who is he within that? Is it

53:43

Eddie Murphy? Eddie Murphy. Yeah. Um, God

53:48

send is a movie that he did

53:50

with Rebecca Romaine. The one I'm thinking

53:52

of is called hide and see, which

53:56

is, uh, which

53:58

was a psychological thriller. And

54:00

to Nero turned down a role in

54:02

the departed. What was his role gonna be

54:05

in the departed? Nicholson

54:08

maybe or maybe like a Martin

54:10

one is like the Martin Sheen maybe I Could

54:13

see okay. I mean I I think

54:15

Martin Sheen there really isn't a role for DeNiro in

54:18

the in the departed. Maybe that's why It

54:23

could not have been Nicholson, right I

54:27

Mean not I mean maybe on paper

54:29

you also wouldn't think Nicholson for that

54:31

role But then Nicholson is just like

54:34

I'm gonna be fucking crazy. We're talking

54:36

about a role on cocaine. Yeah Yeah,

54:39

literally written with cocaine and

54:41

then 2008

54:45

they do the second DeNiro Pacino movie, which

54:47

is righteous kill which to me if

54:50

I'm Michael Mann I like file an injunction

54:52

to make that movie not happen because

54:54

it's like You it's

54:56

not like it makes heat worse But it

54:58

makes heat even infinitesimally less special

55:01

and like that kind of sucks Like

55:03

I think yeah after heat you

55:05

almost want to be like you're not allowed to be in

55:07

a movie together after this Like this has to say like

55:10

not because one of the things about The

55:13

Pacino DeNiro pairing in heat that I

55:15

think kind of worked against it in

55:17

the moment in terms of like its

55:20

popular initial popular reception is

55:23

the scene a

55:26

little bit underwhelming and I don't really even say

55:28

that as a negative but like it's

55:30

not like not Qualitatively, but

55:33

like like showing up for fire Where

55:35

people wanted really what that see that's sort of what

55:37

I mean the fact that like people would for years

55:39

talk about like They're not even in the same shot

55:42

together like that kind of thing and like people didn't

55:44

really appreciate what

55:46

a Like

55:49

wrong Joe, right, right like the precision

55:51

of shooting it like, you know over

55:53

each other's oldest They're giving each other

55:56

Right quality. I think people

55:59

were expecting Like, De

56:01

Niro, Pacino, like,

56:03

you know, helmets in a football promo

56:05

or whatever, like colliding and whatever. And

56:08

I think to that degree, people, there

56:10

was, I remember, an undercurrent of like,

56:13

oh, I guess that's all there is.

56:15

That's all there is to it. It's just the one

56:17

scene and then like the end or whatever. But like,

56:20

um, and, but

56:23

I think the movie is better for that.

56:25

I think the movie is feels,

56:28

you know, tighter and more sort of

56:30

the tension to me

56:32

is much more is much

56:34

better for that scene being as quote

56:37

unquote, underwhelming. You know, are you saying

56:40

that the scene is better because they

56:42

show up and the vibes are off?

56:45

Oh, no, I mean, I please go ahead. Go

56:49

ahead. No, no, no, no, no, I want to

56:51

know. Tell me. I was going to

56:53

say, I mean, I think it's

56:56

almost like it. I

57:00

think the mainstream with the way that they

57:02

would want that is not necessarily

57:04

the artists they want to be. And like

57:06

you described, you know, at least in Nero's

57:08

fallow period, I think it's also true for

57:10

Pacino as well after this. But and, you

57:12

know, it's kind of like for the last

57:15

of a moment where they actually get to

57:17

do something that's a little bit more daring,

57:19

a little more unexpected. And, you

57:21

know, in terms of like honing

57:23

human behavior and human

57:25

psychology on screen, you

57:27

know, it's a lot

57:29

more delicate and interesting than they would

57:32

go on to do. And

57:34

I don't know. I mean, Heat

57:36

is definitely a movie for

57:38

a certain vibe

57:40

and perspective. And

57:43

you can see how, especially if you're

57:45

promoting it as some showdown between two

57:47

of the greatest living actors, that

57:50

people would be disappointed. And you

57:52

know, you're releasing it at the

57:55

holiday season, maybe not the time

57:57

to put out your deeply introspective

57:59

three-hour. tone poem That's

58:03

the most perfect time to

58:05

release But

58:08

it's so funny because it's like when we talk

58:10

about like showdown I'm like as

58:13

an acting as an acting

58:15

showdown this scene fucking rips,

58:17

right? Yeah Oh,

58:19

yeah, them are doing like

58:22

such layered Menace,

58:24

but they understand each other but they're not

58:26

gonna pull on each other in this fucking

58:28

diner Like I think what works so much

58:30

for this scene for me is that they're

58:32

both Professionals and

58:35

that's ultimately what this scene is about right?

58:37

It's about like the personal professional divide

58:40

and Delights how the two

58:42

of them can respect each other for both being

58:44

great at their jobs Any

58:46

of their diametrically opposed to

58:48

each other's existence? So it's

58:51

interesting. Was it was

58:53

it promoted? Mispromoted like

58:55

we've talked before about how like Drive was

58:57

Mispromoted as like a fast and the furious

58:59

movie and right or bad when that also

59:02

was like Ryan Gosling

59:04

being sad like why I

59:06

also think like as Most

59:08

movies were and probably continued to

59:10

be it was promoted to teenage

59:12

boys, right? And yeah, okay,

59:14

and I think that audience is

59:16

is going in expecting probably if

59:18

not Exclusively teenage boys than like

59:20

teenage boys and people who have

59:22

remained teenage boys well into their

59:24

20s and 30s And that's even

59:26

back then because it's so funny because I

59:28

think of that as like the Marvelization

59:31

of cinema because like I

59:33

didn't really go to movies like as

59:36

a teenager or like as a child So

59:38

I don't remember what the marketing was like.

59:40

So like it's so surprising to me to

59:42

hear That even at that point

59:44

it was like we gotta get the what like the 14

59:46

to 19 year old boy I

59:49

mean, I mean I guess if you're

59:51

talking about it in terms of like

59:53

how we talk about movies today It's

59:55

like the Rotten Tomatoes critics and audience

59:57

score divides Yeah

59:59

I mean, I was probably too young to

1:00:02

be reading reviews and such at this time,

1:00:04

but I remember hearing from largely men and

1:00:06

teenage boy like, eh, heat's not

1:00:08

that good, stuff like that. But like this

1:00:10

movie got great reviews at its time. And

1:00:13

even if you like, again, compare it to

1:00:15

Casino, this was definitely more of a financial

1:00:18

success than even that movie was. It's been

1:00:20

a $100 million movie. For a

1:00:22

movie that's almost three hours long to make 60 million domestic

1:00:24

in 95, like that's really good. The

1:00:28

thing though, to sort of encapsulate the

1:00:30

way this movie was marketed though, you look

1:00:32

at in the trailer and then even you

1:00:34

look at the poster and the poster is

1:00:37

you would think from any objective viewpoint now, you

1:00:39

would think who's on the poster for heat and

1:00:41

you would be like Pacino and De Niro, maybe

1:00:44

in Counterpoint, maybe in whatever. And you look at

1:00:46

the poster and it's Pacino and De Niro and

1:00:48

who's right in the middle of them. It's

1:00:51

Val, like little teeny Val Kilmer. And

1:00:53

he's also mentioned it's like Al Pacino,

1:00:55

Robert De Niro, Val Kilmer, Heat. And

1:00:58

it's because it was the same year as Batman

1:01:00

Forever and it was like five months

1:01:02

after Batman Forever. And I think that

1:01:04

was... Oh, look at it. It's the

1:01:07

poster on it. Yeah. Oh

1:01:09

my God. And I think that

1:01:11

was like, Val Kilmer is a huge part

1:01:13

of the marketing more even like outside of

1:01:15

what his character is in the movie. And

1:01:18

it's because of Batman Forever

1:01:20

and because they really wanted to sort of

1:01:22

like rope in that section of...

1:01:26

I didn't even realize that. That's so

1:01:28

interesting. It's absolutely batshit. That's what batshit.

1:01:31

It is. It's wild that those

1:01:33

movies... I know. I didn't

1:01:35

mean to do it. I didn't mean to

1:01:38

do it. Wild that those movies were shot

1:01:40

simultaneously. He was shooting Batman as...

1:01:43

He was shooting Batman as they

1:01:45

were doing pre-production for... He

1:01:49

was like reading his heat script

1:01:51

while he's shooting Batman or whatnot.

1:01:54

Can you imagine... And this was one of

1:01:56

the Joel Schumacher Batmans? The first Joel

1:01:58

Schumacher Batman. I love the only one

1:02:00

that valid what do you need it? Yeah.

1:02:03

Yeah Honey

1:02:06

that movie sounds crazy So

1:02:08

rip Joel. All right P. Joel. Yep

1:02:12

I want to talk about Val though

1:02:14

in this movie Val Kilmer Val

1:02:16

is my Male physical

1:02:18

ideal in this movie in

1:02:20

this movie go off the

1:02:22

most beautiful I've ever seen

1:02:24

him me man in literally

1:02:26

higher career The hair

1:02:28

is so you've never he never did

1:02:30

this hair again this sort of like

1:02:32

slowly blonde hair He and Ashley Judd

1:02:34

together This is why sort of my

1:02:36

my little like bitchy gay review of

1:02:38

heat is like give me the movie

1:02:40

with just Val Kilmer and Ashley

1:02:43

Judd because like no, I

1:02:45

don't know you need to I don't want to watch

1:02:47

more of that relationship Oh is that is it about

1:02:50

them? That's heat too. No way. Yeah

1:02:53

Oh, like I'm finding their way back to each other Divergence.

1:02:56

Well, not necessarily finding their way back to

1:02:58

each other, but you get the backstory of

1:03:00

their relationship and What

1:03:03

she was doing how he

1:03:05

like saves her it's very hot

1:03:07

I think they're both so good in

1:03:10

this movie. I think he in in

1:03:12

any scene Where it's

1:03:14

him talking with DeNiro. That's so funny

1:03:16

that like they barely have scenes together.

1:03:18

That's most it's the most Telling

1:03:21

scenes about their relationship are their individual scenes

1:03:24

with DeNiro when he's yeah talking to DeNiro

1:03:26

about her and when he went DeNiro Goes

1:03:29

to her and tells her to give Chris

1:03:31

one more chance to stop seeing and he's

1:03:33

being very menacing And he's like it's not

1:03:35

very nice to her But he

1:03:37

tells her to give Chris one more chance and it's

1:03:39

so funny that like not funny, but like

1:03:43

That's how this movie builds intimacy is

1:03:45

when you get to that point later

1:03:47

in the shootout where Chris gets shot

1:03:50

And it's interestingly parallel to

1:03:52

Ted Levine. Ted Levine gets shot

1:03:55

killed and Pacino sort of has

1:03:57

to take a break from the shootout to to

1:04:00

check on him. And

1:04:03

so that's sort of paralleled with Chris getting

1:04:05

shot and Neil

1:04:07

De Niro having to go basically

1:04:09

rescue him. And that doesn't

1:04:12

really make a ton of sense if you don't

1:04:14

get those scenes earlier. And it's handled so economically.

1:04:17

This is one of the sort of my favorite

1:04:19

things about the script is, you

1:04:21

know, after that Ashley Judd scene, they're like,

1:04:23

oh, he really cares about Chris in

1:04:25

a way that sort of belies his sort of

1:04:28

like, you know, something in your life that you

1:04:30

can't drop at the drop of a hat when

1:04:32

the heat's coming around. Chris, it's like, it's like,

1:04:34

that's the thing. And it's not Amy Brenneman, which

1:04:36

now I don't, I don't like that relationship. And

1:04:39

I don't buy that relationship. That's maybe my least

1:04:41

favorite thing. I don't think you're supposed to necessarily

1:04:43

buy it though. Right? Yeah, but like the relationship,

1:04:45

the one that he drops everything

1:04:48

for is Chris is

1:04:50

Chris is Val Kilmer. I love that. But I love that. That's

1:04:52

how they set it up. They set it up through the scene

1:04:54

with him and Ashley Judd with De Niro and Ashley Judd. I

1:04:58

think Ashley Judd is incredible

1:05:00

in like very, very, very limited work.

1:05:02

I think she and Diane

1:05:04

Vannora are both like really stand

1:05:06

out. So, and it's

1:05:09

not super well served by the

1:05:11

script, I think to Vannora. No,

1:05:13

no. I mean, I think

1:05:18

I love Michael. I do

1:05:22

think that Michael's women

1:05:25

in this movie

1:05:27

read a little harpish, but

1:05:29

at the same time, I

1:05:33

read them as believably harpish. You know what I

1:05:35

mean? Like, I think they're like a little bit

1:05:37

limited and their dialogue is like a little bit,

1:05:39

eh, but I also totally

1:05:41

understand that she's like, as

1:05:43

Hannah's wife, like on the one hand

1:05:45

when she, okay, so let's just talk about the specific

1:05:48

scene, when she's like, I made dinner because I didn't

1:05:50

know you were coming home. Like I made chicken. It's

1:05:52

like, look, he was out on the streets. Okay. Like

1:05:54

your chicken doesn't matter. Well, I'm saying to the Mary,

1:05:56

this guy that week. You know what I mean? Like,

1:05:59

you know, this I'm like,

1:06:02

oh, but like you made dinner for him. That's so nice.

1:06:07

Well, and like, and she's an element

1:06:09

to the female characters too, that like,

1:06:11

these men are all playing archetypes. So

1:06:14

they're archetypes too. They are the, they

1:06:16

are the women of Shakespeare. Yeah. They

1:06:18

have to be. They're the

1:06:20

lady Macbeth's waiting for Macbeth to return home.

1:06:22

Yeah. Well, and I love that in back

1:06:25

to back years, Diane Venera did this, and

1:06:27

then William Shakespeare's Romeo plus Juliet. Yeah, man.

1:06:29

And it's just like, yes, she is. Chris,

1:06:40

it's the most wonderful time of the

1:06:43

year. And I don't just mean that

1:06:45

I have my Christmas decorations up and

1:06:47

a candle

1:06:49

burning that Johnny Mathis singing in

1:06:51

the background. Genuinely, yes. It's

1:06:54

also the period in the Vulture movie

1:06:56

fantasy league where the awards points start

1:06:58

coming in. I have been somewhat

1:07:01

unsubtle when I write the newsletter every week

1:07:03

of being like, yeah, yeah, box office, whatever

1:07:06

jerk off motion, but like, here come the

1:07:08

awards points to be the real thing. And

1:07:11

thank goodness, because if it was still just the

1:07:13

era of box office points, there

1:07:15

wouldn't be many points to go around. Well,

1:07:17

more so than I kind of expected with

1:07:19

the, with the Taylor Swift's and Five Nights

1:07:22

at Freddy's of it all. And you know

1:07:24

what I mean? And like, even Hunger Games

1:07:26

songbirds and snakes have been performing better. For

1:07:28

when this is going, for when this little

1:07:30

insert is dropping, I, who drafted

1:07:33

Boy and the Heron is getting those sweet

1:07:36

number one bonus points. Is

1:07:39

it not going to be number one this weekend? It's going to be number

1:07:41

one this weekend. Get the fuck out of here. What happened to Beyonce? One

1:07:44

weekend wonder, Beyonce. Wow.

1:07:47

SMH. Not

1:07:49

a good time to release a movie.

1:07:51

I didn't realize when I, when I've

1:07:56

been talking about like, well, yeah, like Renaissance

1:07:58

got announced after the league I

1:08:00

didn't realize that like Renaissance got announced

1:08:02

two days after we locked Lineups

1:08:05

right for the fantasy league like

1:08:07

it genuinely a weekend chapter The

1:08:10

Thanksgiving weekend are notoriously bad times to

1:08:13

release a movie too. So I think

1:08:15

it has some thing to do with

1:08:17

that Oh, okay, and

1:08:19

like concert movies like We're

1:08:21

making excuses for Beyonce. It's yeah

1:08:24

But like the reality is concert

1:08:26

movies are not huge box office

1:08:28

draws generally and when they are

1:08:30

they are they appeal to Yes,

1:08:33

and kids, you know, like the Taylor

1:08:35

thing is is an anomaly is one

1:08:37

of those weird Taylor Swift anomalies that

1:08:39

happen But anyway good

1:08:41

for boy in the heron. I'm glad about that I

1:08:43

haven't even you are much more up on the tracking

1:08:45

than I am I will check tomorrow when it comes

1:08:48

time to enter in those Points, but that's very cool.

1:08:50

So by the time you are listening to this Our

1:08:53

leaderboard will have probably

1:08:55

changed some with the new box office

1:08:57

points So good for all of you

1:08:59

boy in the hair and drafters for that in the meantime

1:09:03

Chris we can talk about the

1:09:05

awards points that rolled in this

1:09:07

week for the national border review

1:09:09

and the independent spirit awards to

1:09:13

Two awards bodies that offer us a

1:09:15

lot of points in a lot of

1:09:17

different Areas I like

1:09:19

the fact that the independent spirit awards nominated

1:09:21

first. Let's talk about them. I Think

1:09:26

a lot of these movies are movies that are

1:09:28

maybe not going to pick up points as consistently

1:09:30

through the season So I was glad that right

1:09:32

now we got a chance to

1:09:35

give Eileen some points Let's say Eileen got

1:09:37

a lot of good nominations William oldroyd

1:09:40

was nominated for best director and Hathaway

1:09:42

and Marin Ireland were nominated

1:09:44

for an I recently found out its

1:09:46

more like the county Marin Ireland Thank

1:09:49

you and Hathaway in Marin Ireland and

1:09:51

best supporting performance Really

1:09:54

really great for that super deserved

1:09:57

very happy about that. Um, I'll

1:09:59

turn really Ireland is in a

1:10:01

birth rebirth which oh yeah, she fucking

1:10:03

is we know I like that movie

1:10:06

some of my favorite nominations birth rebirth

1:10:08

unfortunately, I did not add it to

1:10:10

the Fantasy

1:10:13

League mostly because I didn't expect something like

1:10:15

this and maybe that's a lesson for me

1:10:17

going forward Judy Ray as nomination is So

1:10:20

the Judy Ray is nomination. Okay, so top

1:10:22

so I'm not a rule Top

1:10:24

five favorite nominations individual nominations

1:10:27

at indie spirits Go

1:10:31

I Can I can

1:10:34

sign lean acting nominations, Judy

1:10:36

Ray? I

1:10:38

Loved Erica Alexander getting nominated for American

1:10:41

fiction. I have trumpeted that before I

1:10:43

we went nothing but success for her

1:10:45

We love her even though I'm like,

1:10:48

that's not a great written role. I Don't

1:10:51

care. I think she's so winning in that

1:10:53

performance. I think she's really wonderful I

1:10:57

love birth rebirth in screenplay. Like I

1:10:59

think that's a really I'm so rarely

1:11:02

Do horror movies get recognized for their screenplay?

1:11:04

So like I really love that um

1:11:09

I know you are super happy about all these nominations

1:11:11

for a thousand and one. Yeah, that's

1:11:13

really good I was

1:11:16

really happy to see Kokomo City show

1:11:18

up in best documentary feature. Tell me

1:11:20

about Kokomo City Kokomo

1:11:22

City is We talked

1:11:24

probably talked about it in our Sundance

1:11:27

episode. I thought it was

1:11:29

the best doc that I saw at that Sundance and

1:11:31

still it's at the top of my list of docs

1:11:34

for the year Directed

1:11:36

by D Smith. What's not

1:11:38

about to a lot of black trans sex

1:11:40

workers the vibe of this

1:11:43

movie For like

1:11:45

what many might call like a talking

1:11:47

head documentary. There's so much style to

1:11:49

this movie. It felt like something From

1:11:53

like the 90s MTV

1:11:55

era. It just felt it like

1:11:57

as far as film make pure

1:12:00

filmmaking goes when, you

1:12:02

know, we watch a lot of boring

1:12:04

documentaries. Sure, sure. There

1:12:06

is actual like style and substance

1:12:08

to the filmmaking of this movie

1:12:11

that I found really wonderful.

1:12:13

Great. I'm also happy

1:12:15

to see Ben Wyshaw get a supporting

1:12:17

nomination for Passages. I for as much

1:12:20

as we all rightly praise Franz Rogowski's

1:12:22

lead performance, I'm glad that Wyshaw isn't

1:12:24

getting fully forgotten, this award reason. So

1:12:27

there is that. So what

1:12:29

a rad best director lineup though.

1:12:31

Andrew Hay, Todd Haynes, William Oldroyd,

1:12:33

Ira Sacks, Celine Song. Like that's

1:12:36

a good director lineup. I've been saying

1:12:39

that the indie

1:12:41

spirits traditionally, even

1:12:43

for movies that haven't been as, you

1:12:47

know, that sometimes get forgotten.

1:12:49

Three of their favorites are Todd Haynes,

1:12:52

Ira Sacks, and Kelly Reichart.

1:12:54

And what wins the Robert Altman prize?

1:12:56

Kelly Reichart's showing up, which so it's

1:12:59

like they did still show up for

1:13:01

their three of their faves. Also,

1:13:03

can we say underrated year for

1:13:05

queer filmmakers when you've got a

1:13:07

director lineup that has Andrew Hay,

1:13:10

Todd Haynes, is it Hay or high?

1:13:12

Am I pronouncing it wrong this whole

1:13:14

time? I feel like I've heard a

1:13:16

million different pronunciations of his name. Andrew

1:13:19

Hay, Todd Haynes, Ira Sacks, like are

1:13:21

three of our best. So that's pretty

1:13:23

awesome. I love that. Moving

1:13:27

over to the National Board of Review,

1:13:30

they followed suit from the New York Film

1:13:32

Critics and gave their Best Film Award to

1:13:34

Killers of the Flower Moon, which gives that

1:13:37

movie some real momentum. I still am not

1:13:39

quite ready to put

1:13:42

that as a even momentary, momentary,

1:13:44

where am I, Camara?

1:13:50

Momentary favorite for best picture.

1:13:54

But I am more and more

1:13:56

confident, and certainly with the Lily Gladstone of it all,

1:13:58

that it's not going to Irish me. minutes away

1:14:00

to zero awards. The fact that Scorsese has

1:14:02

gone zero for ten twice at the Oscars

1:14:05

in his career is very wild

1:14:08

to think about, that he's done that with

1:14:10

Gangs of New York and The Irishman, but

1:14:13

I don't feel like it's going to be

1:14:15

an O for year for Killers of the

1:14:17

Flower Moon. So. Right. Good for that.

1:14:19

And then do you want to list off our

1:14:22

top ten films of the year as according to

1:14:24

the National Board of Review? According

1:14:26

to Killers of the Flower Moon, you have

1:14:28

Barbie, Boy and the Heron. Really cool to

1:14:30

see that show up in a Best Picture,

1:14:32

or Best Film lineup, just saying. Ferrari,

1:14:36

The Holdovers, The Iron Claw. They're going

1:14:38

in for The Iron Claw. I

1:14:40

still haven't seen The Iron Claw and I'm going to cheer it

1:14:42

until the moment, if it ever

1:14:44

disappoints me, I'll be so sad. But

1:14:47

unless it does, I'm going to be cheering it

1:14:49

no matter what. I see

1:14:51

it this week. I'm very excited. Maestro,

1:14:54

Oppenheimer, Past Lives, and Poor Things. So

1:14:56

a lot of expected

1:14:58

movies. There's no bucket list

1:15:00

on this. But also enough for them to

1:15:02

go away. Yeah, there's not really a booger

1:15:04

in this list. Right. Right. Which I like.

1:15:07

OK, you mentioned The Boy and

1:15:09

the Heron showing up on the list. At

1:15:12

what point are you going to be

1:15:14

prepared to sound the

1:15:17

alarm for The Boy and the Heron could end up

1:15:19

as the Best Picture nominee? I

1:15:22

don't know. Maybe if

1:15:25

because what would need to happen,

1:15:27

right? Disney owns G-Kits, right? Who's

1:15:29

distributing it in the US? If

1:15:31

not owns, then has a relationship with

1:15:34

I would imagine at the very least.

1:15:36

Right. Right. Right. I

1:15:39

don't know. I mean, it would be really, really

1:15:41

cool to see. I think

1:15:43

that that movie is it's

1:15:48

even by Miyazaki standards. I think

1:15:50

it's a strange movie for us.

1:15:53

It is. But it would be really cool.

1:15:55

It's getting the kind of placement that

1:15:58

other movies and sometimes. Sometimes

1:16:01

it's just about striking,

1:16:04

like placing something in the right

1:16:06

conversation, conversational light.

1:16:09

You know what I mean? And who knows? I'm

1:16:12

just saying, like, I, but the thing that I

1:16:14

like to think about though is what would need

1:16:18

to happen for us to start thinking,

1:16:22

start assuming that it's a possibility because it's not

1:16:24

like it's going to show up on, I mean,

1:16:26

I guess if it shows up in the PGA

1:16:28

top 10, right?

1:16:30

That's maybe the point. Yes. Well,

1:16:34

would it show up in the PGA top 10? Is it, is

1:16:36

there a, is there a, is it like

1:16:39

the writers guild or if it's not? I don't think

1:16:41

that they honor, they

1:16:44

might not honor animated.

1:16:46

I forget, but

1:16:48

they are on animated separately, I

1:16:50

believe. Right. Right.

1:16:53

So that's the thing is we might

1:16:55

not know until Oscar nomination day that

1:16:57

it's, it's even because like the Golden

1:16:59

Globes doesn't allow animated movies in their

1:17:02

best film lineups and SAG wouldn't have it

1:17:04

as a ensemble nominee. You know what I

1:17:07

mean? So it's one of those things where

1:17:10

we won't know till we know, which I think is kind of interesting.

1:17:14

Yeah. Acting awards, Paul Giamatti

1:17:16

wins for the holdovers his first big

1:17:19

major prize of the year. Lily

1:17:22

Gladstone repeats after New York film,

1:17:24

the New York film critics as

1:17:27

best actress. My man, Mark

1:17:29

Ruffalo gets supporting actor for poor things.

1:17:31

I'm so thrilled about that. I think

1:17:33

he haven't seen it yet. So fucking

1:17:35

hysterical. I won't overhype it anymore then,

1:17:37

but oh, I think he's, and also

1:17:39

repeating from New York film critics, Dave,

1:17:41

I enjoy Randolph one supporting actress. Exactly.

1:17:44

I think she is solidly, solidly on

1:17:46

track for a nomination and could

1:17:49

win. I don't know what's going to happen

1:17:51

in supporting actress. So I'm so happy. Nothing

1:17:53

out. Um, also breakthrough

1:17:55

performance. I was so happy. Tiana

1:17:57

Taylor, 1001. Do

1:18:00

you think- Re-watch that movie this week, I

1:18:02

still think it's one of the performances of the

1:18:04

year. Do we think there's

1:18:06

an outside shot for her in Best Actress?

1:18:08

I do kind of? I mean, it's one

1:18:10

of those things that like it needs a

1:18:13

lot of conversation around it, but like she

1:18:15

keeps showing up where she should show up,

1:18:17

you know? We should probably put a pin

1:18:19

in some of these conversations and save it

1:18:21

for our awards season check-in that we do

1:18:23

for the Patreon. Yes, yes, yes,

1:18:26

yes. We'll be doing that on the Patreon

1:18:28

very, very soon. But more sort of NBR

1:18:30

specific, the fact that they do spread so

1:18:32

much love. We got 10 independent films that

1:18:34

also got nominations. All

1:18:37

Dirt Road's Taste of Salt, All of Us

1:18:39

Strangers, Blackberry, Earth Mama, Earth Mama, which also

1:18:41

had some good nominations at the Indie Spirits,

1:18:44

Flora and Son, the Persian version, Scrapper,

1:18:46

Showing Up, hooray for Showing Up, Theater

1:18:48

Camp, which also had some nominations at

1:18:51

the Independent Spirit Awards, Grumble

1:18:53

Grumble, and 1001. 1001

1:18:56

is doing very well this award season

1:18:58

so far. Good movie. I

1:19:00

will say. Here's what I'll say without getting

1:19:02

too much into the weeds that is conversation

1:19:04

we should be saving for our Patreon

1:19:06

awards, catch up, et cetera, State

1:19:09

of the Rice, whatever we want to call it. In

1:19:12

recent years, National Board of Review,

1:19:15

as far as their four acting

1:19:17

wins, not including the Breakthrough One,

1:19:19

obviously, that aligns with Oscar. One

1:19:23

of those performances isn't

1:19:26

getting nominated, we could presume,

1:19:28

based on recent history with National Board

1:19:30

of Review. And

1:19:33

at this point, I think it's Paul Giamatti. We

1:19:37

need to have this conversation. Everybody

1:19:39

needs to be on alert if

1:19:42

we don't want this to happen again,

1:19:44

where Paul Giamatti gets blanked for

1:19:47

great performance in an Alexander

1:19:49

Payne movie. That's

1:19:51

true. We need to have this conversation so

1:19:53

that it doesn't happen. We'll have more of this conversation. That

1:19:56

they awarded, I think the most likely at this

1:19:59

point of not getting nominated as Paul Giamatti.

1:20:03

Ah, I don't know, man. I

1:20:05

just don't know who else is there, an

1:20:07

actor to overtake, but we'll have, you I

1:20:10

think Paul Giamatti could as easily not

1:20:14

be nominated as he could win. I

1:20:16

don't see it. I don't see it

1:20:18

from this vantage point, but I have been wrong before. So

1:20:20

who knows? We'll see. Um, I

1:20:25

don't know. All right. Here's my

1:20:27

thing. So NBR icon award goes

1:20:29

to Bradley Cooper for Maestro. We

1:20:32

have already seen, did I send

1:20:34

you that screen grab of

1:20:36

all the weirdo bullshitty prizes that the

1:20:38

Gotham handed out after they're like

1:20:41

awards. Wait, I gotta find it where it

1:20:43

was like. Yes, because they gave an award

1:20:45

to Barbie. They gave an award to. Gotham

1:20:48

awards, visionary icon and creator

1:20:50

tribute to air icon

1:20:53

and creator tribute for social justice

1:20:55

to Rustin. Icon and

1:20:57

creator tribute for innovation to Ferrari

1:20:59

historical icon and creator tribute killers

1:21:01

of the flower moon, global icon

1:21:04

and creator tribute to Barbie

1:21:06

and cultural icon and creator

1:21:08

tribute to Maestro. The

1:21:12

Santa Barbara film, what are we doing?

1:21:14

This of all of that. Right? Yes.

1:21:16

Yes. It is the New York Santa Barbara

1:21:19

film festival awards. And I

1:21:21

say this liking the Gotham. But

1:21:23

with that, the fact that the Gotham

1:21:25

made a point to give

1:21:27

something bullshitty to Maestro and then NBR

1:21:30

with their icon award, which is like

1:21:32

the gold standard in bullshitty bullshitty awards

1:21:35

to Bradley Cooper, do we, I think

1:21:37

it's one of two things. I think

1:21:39

either there is a groundswell for Bradley

1:21:41

Cooper that may end up emerging in

1:21:45

a best actor campaign that might

1:21:48

actually happen, like might actually get him

1:21:50

close to a win or Netflix is

1:21:52

working really hard to make sure that

1:21:54

like, even though the voters are not

1:21:56

voting for Maestro that they're getting it

1:21:59

in somewhere. Having not seen the

1:22:01

movie, I still think it's the latter. I

1:22:03

got I got a screener the other day

1:22:05

because I'm going to go see it in

1:22:07

a theater this weekend. The giant nearly broke

1:22:10

my toe with that fucking swag box because

1:22:12

the book slides out of its holder and

1:22:14

like way too easily. And the book is

1:22:17

a thousand pounds. Do

1:22:21

I watch the

1:22:23

screener? Or

1:22:25

do I try and wait for when I'm.

1:22:29

In New York at the end of the month. And

1:22:32

could possibly see it in

1:22:35

a theater. It'll be on Netflix by then, so I don't

1:22:37

think you're seeing it in a theater. I

1:22:40

think that's probably true, although

1:22:42

it is playing it more than just like the

1:22:44

one that's playing it like IFC Center and a

1:22:46

couple other places, so like. I

1:22:50

think you're probably right that it probably won't, but then like

1:22:52

at worst case scenario, then I just like see Maestro on

1:22:54

my screener when I get home. Like, do I wait or

1:22:56

do I just like am I impatient and do I just

1:22:58

like watch it now? I

1:23:01

mean, I don't see. I don't think maybe you see

1:23:03

it now and you like it enough to spend time

1:23:05

to go. Yeah, my worry is that

1:23:07

I see it now on a screener and I don't like it

1:23:09

as much as I would like it if I saw it on

1:23:11

a big screen. You know what I mean? Like I don't give

1:23:13

it its due. My thing as

1:23:16

a person of not seeing Maestro

1:23:18

experience the first time that

1:23:20

I got excited for it was seeing this

1:23:22

green cap of Bradley

1:23:24

Cooper as like a poppered

1:23:26

out Leonard Bernstein drunk

1:23:28

and sweaty was the first

1:23:30

time that made me excited to see this

1:23:32

movie. So you have never been excited for

1:23:34

this one at all? Nothing

1:23:37

had even when the first

1:23:39

one I thought was there came out,

1:23:41

I was like, it looks it looks

1:23:43

beautiful, but I haven't been like, what

1:23:45

is this movie until I saw OK?

1:23:49

Bradley Cooper as old age

1:23:51

makeup, open shirts, sweaty on

1:23:55

poppers and coke with like

1:23:57

a solo cup in his hand now. Now.

1:26:00

thing. You can either give me the tell-all

1:26:03

about this three-year marriage later

1:26:05

in life to Diane

1:26:07

Cannon from the perspective of Diane

1:26:09

Cannon, or you can give me

1:26:11

the real story behind

1:26:14

Cary Grant that starts decades before y'all

1:26:16

ever met and goes all the way

1:26:18

back to England and has a complicated

1:26:20

relationship with his mother. And

1:26:23

it glosses over decades of his career

1:26:25

to bookend it with

1:26:27

this, the Diane Cannon stuff. And

1:26:30

I'm just like, what are we

1:26:32

actually doing here? I'm not

1:26:34

here to throw shade on Diane Cannon. I

1:26:36

love her as a mother. Oh, of course.

1:26:38

Of course. But if I want the

1:26:40

Cary Grant story, there

1:26:42

is unavoidable agenda in what I'm watching and

1:26:45

it feels like it. You really feel like

1:26:47

you're watching somebody making their case for like,

1:26:49

here is why I was a good wife

1:26:51

to Cary Grant and here's why I'm not

1:26:53

a good husband. And I'm

1:26:55

like, okay, I don't want this story.

1:26:57

We don't need that. We need more

1:26:59

of the Rock Hudson documentary where the

1:27:02

one guy was like, I

1:27:04

want, I tried to... I

1:27:06

said exactly that in my review on prime

1:27:08

time. That was

1:27:11

me doing the PG-13

1:27:13

version of that

1:27:15

part of the... It was

1:27:17

a fantastic moment in cinema.

1:27:19

Speaking of which, it should

1:27:22

have won the NBR, keenly

1:27:24

phrased award of Outstanding Achievement

1:27:26

in Stunt Artistry, which

1:27:29

John Wick for one, but like

1:27:31

just as a title of a

1:27:33

category, I think we need to

1:27:35

be thinking about this in our

1:27:37

superlatives. Oh, yeah, we are

1:27:39

working on a... For

1:27:42

another tease to a reason to join

1:27:44

the Patreon. In a new year

1:27:46

before the Oscars, we are working on end

1:27:48

of year awards where we are

1:27:50

only going to do the

1:27:53

outlier, hyperspecific

1:27:56

awards like Best Grown

1:27:58

Up for Grown Up. Exactly,

1:28:00

exactly. Best

1:28:02

ensemble from SAG, best

1:28:06

NBR Icon Award, all that sort of stuff.

1:28:08

We are freedom of expression. Freedom of expression,

1:28:10

best first feature, all that. There was no

1:28:12

freedom of expression award this year. I know

1:28:14

it was blank. It was literally like blank

1:28:16

on some of those. They

1:28:18

could have just given it to Rustin. What

1:28:20

are they doing, slash not

1:28:22

doing? Maybe they had Rustin and somebody was like,

1:28:25

I don't want to give it to Rustin. They

1:28:27

like nixed it off. Not

1:28:29

a good movie, unfortunately. Give it to

1:28:31

Poor Things for women's

1:28:33

slang. I don't know. That

1:28:37

is a best performance in stunting.

1:28:39

Emma Stone's stunting on those hoes.

1:28:42

Stunt artistry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For

1:28:44

Emma Stone's stunting on all those

1:28:46

hoes in Poor Things. All

1:28:49

right. I think that's it for

1:28:51

our update. Listen, go to vulture.com/movies

1:28:53

dash league and you can check

1:28:55

out the latest version of the

1:28:58

leaderboard. You can take a look

1:29:01

at you can filter by league

1:29:03

and see whatever league you're in. At this

1:29:05

point, I'm going to bring up the All of Us

1:29:07

Gary's League so we can throw

1:29:11

the appropriate amounts

1:29:14

of flowers on Velvet

1:29:17

Goldmine, which is

1:29:19

currently 17th

1:29:21

overall and number one in the

1:29:23

All of Us Gary's League. Fucking

1:29:25

hell, yeah. We have three

1:29:28

rosters from All of Us Gary's are in the top 15

1:29:31

as I look at the leaderboard right

1:29:33

now. Hell yeah. Go Gary's. Y'all are

1:29:35

killing it. I'm very happy. Velvet Goldmine

1:29:38

has on their roster American

1:29:40

Fiction, Killers of the Flower

1:29:42

Moon, Taylor Swift, The

1:29:44

Heiress Tour, The Hunger Games, The Ballad

1:29:46

of Song, Birds and Snakes, Asteroid City,

1:29:48

which is currently at a big old goose

1:29:50

egg in award season. And it's going to

1:29:52

be one of the most embarrassing things about

1:29:54

this award season in years. And we'll be

1:29:56

able to do an episode on it sooner

1:29:59

than you think. Like all of us

1:30:01

strangers, past lies and poor things. That

1:30:03

is a strong roster that

1:30:05

is only going to get stronger

1:30:07

when as the award season moves

1:30:10

on through. So we'll

1:30:13

see how it goes. Chris, just

1:30:15

FYI, Rogowski, crop top Stan is

1:30:17

still in second place. So

1:30:20

to do the quick loving

1:30:23

of the Gary's league,

1:30:27

like team names, Theresa May,

1:30:29

December. I love that

1:30:31

you. Not bad. It's not

1:30:33

bad. Um, yeah,

1:30:36

we are. We're going to spotlight a different name

1:30:39

every week and Theresa May, December is

1:30:43

pretty good. All right, listeners

1:30:45

back to your regularly scheduled heat.

1:30:48

And feel it coming around the corner

1:30:50

and enjoy the

1:30:52

rest of our episode. Can

1:31:00

we go back to Ashley because your

1:31:02

point of like Lady Macbeth waiting,

1:31:05

like the hand signal, like it's just

1:31:07

so good. Yeah,

1:31:09

yeah, yeah. It's great.

1:31:12

It's so good because this thing that

1:31:15

was his vice, right? Like the gambling

1:31:17

vice that was his problem is what

1:31:19

she uses to tell him to go

1:31:22

like, it's just, it's just so like

1:31:24

meticulously constructed so that you understand

1:31:27

to your point, Joe, like these

1:31:30

very economically provided to you elements

1:31:32

of these characters, but they are

1:31:34

given like such impressive meaning by

1:31:37

how he like rearranges them in each

1:31:40

interaction. And

1:31:42

he cuts his hair at the very end so that he

1:31:44

can go right off and film the Saint like right after.

1:31:47

Yeah. So it's perfect. I was

1:31:49

going to say because he had to go back to

1:31:51

the back. What a time for Val. What a time

1:31:53

for Val. Well, he was so it was this was

1:31:56

his. All right. The thing I wrote

1:31:58

down in the, um, in the

1:32:00

outline was we need to make a

1:32:02

visit to Val Kilmer's awards tab on

1:32:04

IMDb because it is...

1:32:07

Oh, yeah. How much MTV is there? I

1:32:09

feel like it's gonna be a lot. It's the biggest

1:32:12

portion. The two biggest chunks of his awards tab are

1:32:14

MTV and the Razzies, unfortunately. So he is

1:32:16

a... Well, at this point, he's hot off

1:32:19

of playing the world's hottest tuberculosis patient in

1:32:21

Tombstone. Well, this is what I want to

1:32:23

talk about. So he's a five-time nominee at

1:32:25

the MTV Movie Awards. This

1:32:27

was before they added TV and bastardized it. He

1:32:31

was nominated for Best Male Performance in the

1:32:33

Doors. He loses to... Who

1:32:36

the fuck did he lose to in... Hold on.

1:32:39

I'm finding it. I'm finding it. Probably

1:32:41

Arnold Schwarzenegger. I was gonna say probably Schwarzenegger.

1:32:43

Yes, Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2. Yes, perfect. Yeah.

1:32:46

So funny. He's nominated for Best Male Performance

1:32:48

in Tombstone in 1994. He's

1:32:52

so good in Tombstone. But he's also

1:32:54

nominated for Most Desirable Male for Tombstone,

1:32:56

which is fucking hilarious. Hotest

1:32:58

tuberculosis patient, I'm telling you. That's literally...

1:33:00

What does he die of in that

1:33:02

movie? Tuberculosis. It is tuberculosis. Oh, there

1:33:04

you go. Yes. No, he doesn't

1:33:06

die of... He doesn't get shot. He doesn't get whatever...

1:33:08

That man is coughing up blood for 65% of that

1:33:10

movie. And

1:33:13

everybody who was watching MTV

1:33:15

at that time was just like, sign me up,

1:33:17

get me more of that guy. And

1:33:20

that's how hot of a movie star he was.

1:33:22

And that's why he got Batman, because like... That's

1:33:24

crazy. Everybody fucking loved him.

1:33:26

And then his only other post-Batman, he's

1:33:29

nominated again for Desirable Male for both

1:33:31

Batman Forever and Heat, a dual nomination.

1:33:33

Okay. Correct. Which is correct.

1:33:36

It's not on the broadcast. We recap this

1:33:38

episode over on the Patreon. Brad Pitt wins

1:33:40

for seven, is not there, which is probably

1:33:42

why it's not on the broadcast. Brad

1:33:45

Pitt winning for seven, I'm gonna say is

1:33:47

correct, because there would not be a bad

1:33:49

year in the 90s to give Brad Pitt

1:33:52

and Most Desirable Male for literally anything. That's

1:33:54

true. But I also feel like... Brad

1:33:58

in that movie is hot. because he's

1:34:00

Brad. I don't think the movie does anything

1:34:02

to accentuate his hotness, you know

1:34:04

what I mean? Where it's-

1:34:06

Well, I will bring up the Janine

1:34:09

Garofalo caveat, which is the police badge

1:34:11

on the necklace sometimes, like it's the

1:34:13

necklace of it. Not

1:34:15

the police of it, but the necklace of it. The necklace

1:34:18

of it. Or the like, enhances. The only thing I will

1:34:20

say about Heat is that there is a moment where he

1:34:22

and Neil go out to

1:34:24

deal with the fact that they're gonna be sold like

1:34:27

the fake bonds. And Chris

1:34:29

has taken like the sniper position and

1:34:31

there's a moment where he like rolls

1:34:33

into the frame. And

1:34:36

he's just doing like, I don't know, just like a role,

1:34:38

like an army role. And it's like the hottest thing I've

1:34:40

ever seen in my life. To

1:34:43

also endorse this nomination for Val Kilmer,

1:34:46

potentially over Brad Pitt's win in

1:34:48

the category. You're placing

1:34:51

it on the jewelry show.

1:34:53

What is Batman, if not

1:34:55

like over accessorized? He

1:34:57

has a belt full of jewelry. The

1:35:00

Gatlingon is jewelry. Here's the other thing

1:35:02

about Val Kilmer. And this is what

1:35:05

is because Batman wears

1:35:07

the cowl, the

1:35:09

most important physical feature on

1:35:12

Batman is what his

1:35:14

lips, because that's the part of the

1:35:16

movie you can see. And that is

1:35:19

why Val Kilmer was perfect casting for

1:35:21

Batman Forever, because Val Kilmer's lips were

1:35:23

gifted to him by a nymph by

1:35:25

the Greek, you know, island

1:35:28

of whatever. Very pillowy, very

1:35:31

luxurious. They're very good lips. And

1:35:33

that's why George Clooney was an

1:35:35

insane choice to play Batman, because

1:35:37

as all the good features that

1:35:39

George Clooney has, he doesn't

1:35:42

really have really good lips. And so-

1:35:44

I feel like I would want like

1:35:46

George's voice with Val's lips as

1:35:48

Batman. That

1:35:50

I think works. That's

1:35:53

why Robert Pattinson has more of an

1:35:55

open cowl, because what do you cast

1:35:57

Robert Pattinson for? The Jawline. The Jawline.

1:36:00

the draw line in those fucking cheekbones. Yeah,

1:36:03

exactly. Got that. We're about to have

1:36:05

a Batman. Yeah, got Batman hot. Yeah.

1:36:08

The rest of this most desirable male lineup is

1:36:10

a little more deranged. Keanu Reeves for

1:36:13

a walk in the clouds, which, you know, Keanu

1:36:15

Reeves. Yes. Okay. Keanu's

1:36:17

a little bit of like a Brad Pitt, though. I

1:36:19

don't think there's a bad year in the 90s to

1:36:21

nominate Keanu for it. No, it's more just Keanu. Keanu

1:36:23

Reeves. Yeah. That

1:36:26

movie. Yeah. Antonio Banderas

1:36:28

for Desperado. Yes. Oh boy.

1:36:31

Mel Gibson for Braveheart. The MTV

1:36:33

Movie Awards were all over. The

1:36:36

most desirable? Mel Gibson

1:36:38

is a former people's sexiest man alive.

1:36:40

Like Mel Gibson, like the sex symbolness

1:36:42

of Mel Gibson in the 90s, as

1:36:45

deranged as it is in retrospect, like

1:36:47

was a thing, was definitely a thing.

1:36:50

I believe that more for people than

1:36:52

for MTV, which I believe is like

1:36:54

the younger demo. Yeah.

1:36:57

Like imagine all the teens coming out of that

1:36:59

movie and being like, he was

1:37:01

so hot. Yeah. I worry about

1:37:03

all of their relationships with their fathers. Like that's

1:37:06

not. Yeah. The

1:37:12

first most desirable male of that year,

1:37:14

which this movie was nominated for other

1:37:16

things, Bill Pullman and While

1:37:18

You Were Sleeping. Oh yeah.

1:37:21

Yeah. Yeah. Mean

1:37:23

where he rips the butt out of his

1:37:25

jeans. Yeah. That's important. Good

1:37:27

point. He's very attractive in

1:37:29

that. So Val was also nominated at the

1:37:31

Saturn Awards this year for Best Supporting Actor.

1:37:33

He loses again to Brad Pitt, this time

1:37:35

for 12 Monkeys. Brad

1:37:37

was also an Oscar nominated for that one. Other

1:37:40

nominees in this category at the Saturn's Harvey

1:37:42

Keitel and Quentin Tarantino and From Dust to

1:37:45

Dawn. I think that movie rules, but I

1:37:47

think nominating Quentin Tarantino for an acting award

1:37:49

should be grounds to get you brought up

1:37:51

on an involuntary committal

1:37:54

or something. No, absolutely deranged

1:37:56

behavior. Tim Roth. and

1:38:00

Rob Roy who was also an Oscar nominated

1:38:02

that year and then Christopher Walken in the

1:38:04

Promisee, a prophecy, a movie that I haven't

1:38:06

seen in since that year.

1:38:09

I remember thinking that

1:38:11

like that was one of those ones where I was

1:38:13

a teen and I'm like, Oh, the prophecy that looks

1:38:15

like really creepy. And like, I very few movies I

1:38:17

recall being let down by as a teenager because I

1:38:19

tend to just like, everything was awesome.

1:38:22

And that one I was like,

1:38:25

okay. Christopher Walken do like three of those

1:38:27

movies. Yeah, I think there was a lot

1:38:29

of them, right? Speaking of like DeNiro getting

1:38:31

a reputation for agreeing to everything like Christopher

1:38:33

Walken will do a movie. Like

1:38:36

that is, yeah, Christopher Walken will work.

1:38:40

I like Brad Pitt a lot in 12 Monkeys, I would have

1:38:42

liked for Val to have gotten something in this

1:38:45

award season. Yeah, I think it's one of the

1:38:47

things where it's like, we talked about Brad

1:38:49

in the 90s and it is just

1:38:51

like banger after banger after banger. Oh,

1:38:54

yeah, like especially at this point where he's

1:38:56

like, I'm gonna start doing weird or stuff.

1:38:58

And like, all right, dude, like, let's keep

1:39:00

going. Like, I'm into this. And

1:39:03

the stuff that was more typical was getting

1:39:05

like worse, like, seven years in Tibet

1:39:07

and meet Joe Black, we're not getting the good reviews.

1:39:09

And the good stuff was like 12 Monkeys.

1:39:11

And like, even like when he

1:39:14

did like snatch in 2000 and stuff like that, people were

1:39:16

really good with that. So, snatch,

1:39:18

snatch good. Oh, and

1:39:20

I are gonna defend Legends of the Fall

1:39:22

any given day. Like,

1:39:26

Brad Pitt in Legends of the Fall is what

1:39:28

I always say of like the the most beautiful

1:39:30

a man has ever looked in history. No, for

1:39:32

you, it's Brad Pitt on the cover of Rolling

1:39:34

Stone. Well, sure. I guess in a movie. In

1:39:37

movement. He's very beautiful in movement in that.

1:39:40

I can't remember who if you're the person

1:39:42

who who made this observation with me. Get

1:39:46

at me in our comments. But there's the moment

1:39:48

in Legends of the Fall, where he

1:39:50

tips his cap to Julia Ormond and like it

1:39:52

had been raining or had been like whatever in

1:39:54

the water, the water sort of splashes off the

1:39:57

cap. And I'm like that moment right there. That's

1:39:59

the most beautiful. I've never seen anybody like

1:40:01

that. It's the splash. It's like saying

1:40:04

it's blue. Yeah. All of us. All of

1:40:06

us are like, you know, everyone in the

1:40:08

audience. Who am I? So

1:40:10

I guess this can be our entry into. Oh,

1:40:12

we have before we get off of Val, the

1:40:15

Razzies. First of all, I will

1:40:18

never continue. The Razzies suck. Yes. The

1:40:21

Razzies nominated him three times for

1:40:23

worst either supporting actor or actor,

1:40:25

all of them after Heat. He

1:40:27

nominated for worst supporting actor for

1:40:30

the Island of Dr. Moreau, which

1:40:32

is a very Razzie thing to

1:40:34

do of like, let's take the

1:40:36

troubled production and pile on.

1:40:39

Worst actor for The Saint, which like, I'm not going

1:40:41

to be here to tell you that The Saint is

1:40:43

a good movie because The Saint isn't a good movie,

1:40:45

but like, you don't need to

1:40:47

pick on. I feel like The Saint is enjoyable. Is

1:40:49

it not? Yeah. I'm committing. I

1:40:51

haven't been committing enough time watching it.

1:40:55

Worst supporting actor in Alexander.

1:40:57

I disagree. If

1:41:00

only that, like, if I'm

1:41:02

enjoying myself in Alexander, like odds are it's

1:41:04

because of like something that

1:41:06

Val did in that movie. Yeah.

1:41:08

Alexander has larger problems than

1:41:11

Val. But that's similar to

1:41:13

the Island of Dr. Moreau, right? This big

1:41:15

project that flopped and had problems and whatever.

1:41:18

The thing that makes me angriest about

1:41:20

The Razzies is just earlier this year,

1:41:24

in January or February, whatever of

1:41:26

this year, they nominated Val Kilmer

1:41:29

for their Razzie Redeemer

1:41:31

Award, which is their condescending

1:41:33

little like, oh, now you've

1:41:35

done a thing that we like. So we're

1:41:37

going to say like, good for you for

1:41:39

like finally doing something good. And they did

1:41:42

it for his documentary about his like failing

1:41:45

health and whatnot, which is like doubly gross.

1:41:47

And so like, genuinely fuck you to the

1:41:49

Razzies for that. In general, I hate the

1:41:51

Redeemer Award. I'm like, at least stand behind.

1:41:53

Your attempt to be nice only reveals how

1:41:56

you suck Razzies. There we go. But like,

1:41:58

to make it about the documentary. I'm

1:42:00

like fuck off like gentlemen

1:42:02

fuck off It's also very funny because it's

1:42:04

like yeah, do you think they saw that

1:42:06

they got nominated for Razzies and they're like

1:42:09

wow My career is really taking Now

1:42:17

because like it's one thing to talk

1:42:19

about the Razzies in like the gnarly

1:42:21

on when it's that it actually got

1:42:23

attention Right now they're they're nominating like

1:42:25

Kim Kardashian for movies that don't exist

1:42:27

like that like I

1:42:31

want to sort of broach the subject

1:42:33

though of why

1:42:36

ultimately heat doesn't

1:42:38

get nominated for any Oscars because

1:42:42

This was not a poorly received

1:42:44

movie the critics like Rotten

1:42:46

Tomatoes being an imperfect, you know model as

1:42:48

it is, but like the

1:42:51

critics were genuine generally positive

1:42:54

on balance the box office as

1:42:57

we said Especially for 1995 and

1:42:59

for a movie that was you know, three

1:43:01

hours long 67.4

1:43:04

million domestic is kind

1:43:07

of great. I Think

1:43:10

ultimately if we're gonna have the conversation of

1:43:12

why the Oscars didn't go for it We

1:43:15

maybe need to begin with that

1:43:18

the expectations were so high for the

1:43:20

movie that finally brings together Pacino and

1:43:22

De Niro and I think

1:43:25

it's hard to I

1:43:28

don't like I don't think it's hard to build a campaign

1:43:30

for either one of those actors in this but

1:43:34

De Niro and Pacino are giving

1:43:36

such very different performances De Niro

1:43:38

is very low key Pacino is

1:43:40

very high key and I

1:43:43

think it's sort of like it's Lummoxed Awards voters

1:43:46

long enough and it was so late in the

1:43:48

year that they were just like Literally,

1:43:50