0:02

When

0:03

my friend, Yousid Ibrahim was sixteen

0:05

years old, he moved from the Middle East, from

0:07

Jordan. to city and central California.

0:10

The first few weeks of high school

0:12

were nerve racking. I

0:13

remember my very

0:16

first lunch with

0:18

my very first American friends.

0:21

They were like, hey, you wanna grab lunch

0:23

together, and I was really happy.

0:26

You know, these are the first couple of friends

0:28

I've made in the US.

0:31

They'd

0:32

grab lunch at the school's cafe terio.

0:34

Yizid and his two new friends moved through the line

0:36

and ordered their meals.

0:37

And then it was my turn, and

0:40

I ordered a burger, and

0:43

then I said, I will

0:45

cover it for everyone. I

0:47

got you guys. Don't worry about it.

0:49

His

0:49

two friends looked at him like, oh,

0:52

amazing.

0:53

They're like, sure. Wow. That's so nice

0:55

of you. I

0:56

was a little bit surprised too that

0:59

they you know, didn't really

1:01

push back at all.

1:03

Then

1:03

the next day, he and his high school friends are back

1:05

in the lunch line. And again, they ordered

1:07

he ordered

1:08

And then I said, no worries

1:10

guys. Like, I got you. And, you

1:12

know, part of me part of me was hoping

1:14

for some pushback. This

1:17

is, like, the second day.

1:19

But instead

1:20

They just like, oh,

1:23

man. Like, thanks. That that's so nice

1:25

of you. We appreciate it. Like,

1:27

wow. What a guy? I'm

1:29

like, wow. That's odd. Okay? Because

1:32

it traditionally in,

1:34

like, Arab culture, it is

1:36

almost expected that whenever you

1:39

grab food with friends, even with strangers

1:41

that you at least offer

1:43

to pay for their meals. Right.

1:46

The next day, usually, they

1:48

will try to fight you over paying

1:51

for your meal to kind of like, you know,

1:54

push it forward type of thing. Right.

1:56

But that did not happen. Mhmm. And

1:59

then the third

1:59

day,

2:01

They go and order their meals

2:04

and I'm just

2:06

like standing there having this ethical

2:08

dilemma of like

2:10

should I give up this like tradition of paying

2:13

for other people? And then I noticed that they

2:15

were actually almost looking at

2:17

me expecting for me to pay.

2:21

As

2:21

someone who shares the same cultural background as

2:23

Yuzeed, this makes total sense to me that

2:25

he'd expect some pushback. An Arab

2:27

culture, like a lot of cultures, it can

2:29

be considered disrespectful, almost even insulting

2:31

if you don't offer to pay. At

2:34

the same time though, I've been a hungry high schooler

2:36

before, so I can imagine his friends were thinking

2:38

like, oh, wow, I found a new friend who

2:40

wants to pay for my food. I'm not gonna

2:42

question that. But for you,

2:44

Zeed, this gesture, it's not actually about

2:47

the money. It's a way of saying, hey,

2:49

I care about you. That's

2:50

why in a way in

2:53

some cultures. If you don't do that

2:55

in return, it's almost

2:57

like you're saying, you're not

2:59

really worthy of, like, respect and

3:01

love, you don't really mean a lot to me.

3:04

So that really was a

3:06

cultural for life.

3:09

It just tells me that maybe the

3:12

language that we speak is a little bit different.

3:14

And it's it's totally fine, but I'm not

3:16

going to continue to cover

3:19

your meal. If for you, it doesn't really

3:21

mean much.

3:27

I'm Eddie and you're listening to

3:29

this is uncomfortable. A show from MarketPlace

3:31

about life and how money messes with it.

3:34

Generosity can be a bit of a rorschach

3:36

test. One person's kind

3:38

gesture can be another person's insults.

3:41

and not just across cultures, like

3:43

even in intimate relationships. One

3:45

person's interpretation of kindness might

3:47

look entirely different than someone else's.

3:49

Today on the show,

3:52

we've got two stories about this super

3:54

well intention concept that can sometimes

3:56

go awry.

3:58

The first story is about a couple

3:59

with a lifting views on generosity. Then

4:02

later, a story about a woman who has

4:04

no reason to believe people will help her.

4:06

Until she becomes part of a community, she

4:09

never intend it to join.

4:15

There is a

4:17

particular fight, Ayanna and her

4:19

husband, Tim Sumner, have once

4:21

a year every year. Oh,

4:23

it happen like, it happens every Christmas.

4:25

That's the thing.

4:26

What are we talking about? We're

4:27

talking about the Christmas, the Christmas

4:29

flight.

4:30

Which one?

4:31

Right. Exactly.

4:34

Essentially, the fight is this. Ayanna

4:37

likes to keep Christmas simple.

4:39

I call her the Grinch.

4:41

And Tim likes to make Christmas into

4:44

a big deal, like a really

4:46

big deal. Fancy

4:47

gifts, decorations, trips,

4:49

the whole shebang. like, take

4:51

just the tree. He has to have this

4:53

real tree and every year I swear it gets bigger

4:55

every year. And this year, it literally

4:57

touches the ceiling. And I was like, I

4:59

am gonna cut the top of that

5:01

damn tree off. It's touching the ceiling.

5:03

This is ridiculous. How much is that tree?

5:06

He always kinda like low balls it, you know.

5:08

Like, oh, it's only eighty five dollars Tim,

5:09

how much was it? I oh,

5:12

man. I don't really remember. No. I don't

5:14

remember, but but I'm I'm pretty

5:16

sure it was over two hundred dollars. The

5:19

tree, are you freaking kidding me? Pretty sure it

5:21

was over two hundred dollars. See any oh, it's like

5:23

a hundred bucks. That was an inflation tree,

5:25

though. Their

5:27

biggest Christmas fight happened last

5:29

year. Ayanna had just had her second

5:31

baby who, as you can hear, is making her

5:33

podcast debut in this story. We

5:35

named her after Christmas for for

5:37

Tim. For Yeah. So her middle name is Noelle.

5:40

Yeah. Which means Christmas. Wow.

5:42

Yeah. Yeah. That's Let me have that

5:44

one. I would have just named it Christmas.

5:46

When Samara Noelle

5:48

was born, money was tight. Aiana

5:51

didn't work during her pregnancy, and the family

5:53

was still in one income while she recovered. And

5:55

of course, they racked up all those new baby expenses.

5:58

They also

5:58

had legal bills because Tim is

5:59

adopting Ayanna's son from a previous

6:02

relationship. So

6:03

to Ayanna, it just seemed like a no

6:06

brainer. No extravagant gifts

6:08

this Christmas. We're doing it my way

6:10

and

6:10

surely Tim will understand.

6:13

Ayanna approached him one day a few weeks

6:15

before the holiday. hey, you know,

6:17

I really don't wanna do gifts.

6:19

I'm so exhausted. I feel

6:21

like my body is taking forever to

6:23

heal. I

6:25

really wish we could just skip Christmas altogether

6:27

this year. But I know that's not gonna

6:29

happen, but that's literally my dream. If we

6:31

could just but Tim, like, there was

6:33

no Christmas this year. And

6:35

Tim is, like,

6:36

yeah, I get that.

6:38

but

6:39

it's the most magical time of the year. It's Christmas.

6:43

Plus, he was earning more money now,

6:45

around seventy five thousand dollars. To

6:47

him, this year was the year he

6:49

felt like he could finally treat the people he loved

6:51

to something special.

6:52

So

6:53

they decided to compromise and

6:55

I think we settled on like two gifts or

6:58

something. Diana was like,

7:00

great. Finally, we're on the same

7:02

page for once. That

7:04

is until one day, about a month

7:07

before Christmas. They're sitting in their

7:09

living room when Tim turns Diana

7:10

and says,

7:12

listen. I've

7:13

got an idea. I know your

7:15

dad's an average fisherman and and

7:18

his girlfriend is loves to fish

7:20

just as much as he does and really everyone

7:22

family likes to fish.

7:24

But he

7:25

told Ayanna, none of them have actually been

7:27

saltwaterfishing. So what if for Christmas,

7:30

I charter a boat for all of us Like,

7:32

it'd be the perfect gift. This

7:34

is definitely gonna be something that everyone

7:36

enjoys. I was like, it is

7:38

a really good idea, but I you're

7:40

not paying for everybody. Tim

7:42

was like, what? It's

7:44

not a gift if you don't pay for

7:46

everyone. The price tag wasn't

7:48

pretty not for their tight budget. To

7:50

charter a boat and take the whole family on a fishing

7:52

trip, it would come out to at least five hundred

7:55

dollars, which

7:56

would mean that's that's pretty

7:58

much the whole thing there. For

7:59

five hundred dollars, you're

8:02

definitely not gonna be able to get any other

8:04

gifts. So they talk

8:06

it through, and Ayanna convinces Tim.

8:08

This year is not the year to charter

8:10

a boat. I pulled the plug on it.

8:12

I say it's not gonna it's not gonna happen.

8:15

it'd be fine, but it's not gonna I

8:17

can't afford it.

8:20

Case closed.

8:23

But as the days pass, the

8:25

idea of this fishing trip just would not

8:27

leave Tim's mind. It felt like

8:29

more than a gift. It was an experience.

8:32

time together they'd remember forever. A

8:34

few days before Christmas,

8:36

Tim noticed that the charter boat slots

8:38

were quickly filling up. And

8:40

you know that phrase better to ask

8:43

for forgiveness than permission? Well

8:45

Chris'

8:46

spirit just got into me and

8:49

I had to I had to do

8:51

it. So I come home

8:53

and I tell

8:55

you, I say, hey,

8:57

you know, we're we're going on the trip.

9:00

Yep. I booked it. Yeah.

9:01

I booked it. Uh-huh. And

9:02

then you're like, I just really think this

9:04

is important. We haven't met your dad's girlfriend.

9:06

We haven't met your brother's girlfriend.

9:08

We haven't spoken to your brother all

9:11

year. What'd you

9:11

say, Ayanna?

9:13

I I don't I mean, somewhat expedited. I

9:16

thought you guys thought we can't afford it.

9:18

Here's

9:18

what I said. Here's what I said. Well,

9:21

we can't afford it. with

9:22

a caveat. They could afford

9:25

it if they give up the

9:27

only thing Iana really wanted

9:28

that year.

9:30

Tim tells

9:31

her. You know that massage you

9:33

really want. I can't get that

9:35

for you.

9:36

And we have to get that for

9:38

you later. Iyana

9:39

had asked for a spa day to help ease

9:41

the aches and pains of having just given birth

9:43

and raising a newborn. But

9:46

now that was off the table. And

9:48

I said, fine. My body's in pain. That's

9:50

fine. I'm gonna be I'm gonna look like freaking

9:52

job at a hut forever for having your kid,

9:54

but that's fine.

9:56

Iyana

9:56

was mad, not just because she thought they'd

9:58

settle this, not even because it meant that she couldn't get

10:00

a massage. Her aversion to

10:03

extravagant Christmas gifts actually runs

10:05

much deeper. all the way back to her

10:07

childhood. The problem is that

10:09

Tim's love of extravagant Christmases

10:11

also goes back to his childhood. when

10:13

you have two people with two completely opposite

10:15

childhood experiences, it makes sense that

10:17

it would produce some of

10:18

the most entrenched adult relationship

10:20

fights. like a Christmas fight that

10:22

repeats itself year after

10:23

year. When

10:26

Ayanna thinks back to her family, My

10:29

dad is the worst grinch of all. Growing

10:32

up, Ayanna's family didn't have a lot of

10:34

money. So her dad would rail against

10:36

Christmas, saying that it was all about

10:38

corporate greed. just big business pushing the

10:40

idea that the best way to show your family you

10:42

love them is by buying things. I

10:44

grew up here in my dad say all these terrible

10:46

things about Christmas. But then

10:48

I realized, I'm like, you know, what

10:50

probably happened is he had less

10:52

money. And so he felt like he had

10:54

to, you know, he had to have some story.

10:56

Right? This alibi for why

10:58

there was no Christmas anymore.

11:01

So before she married Tim, when Ayanna had

11:03

her first child, Luca, and money

11:05

was tight, She also downplayed Christmas.

11:07

When

11:07

it was just myself and Luca, I was not

11:10

gonna tell about Santa Claus like my family

11:12

did not do that. and I just

11:14

kind of feel like once you tell your child there's

11:16

a Santa Claus, you have to

11:18

do it. She

11:20

worried about setting that expectation. Like,

11:23

what how happens if she lost her job or

11:25

took on some unexpected debt and

11:27

couldn't afford gifts again the next year.

11:29

So

11:29

now what? Oh, Santa Claus is sick? Like, what do

11:31

you say?

11:33

Iyana didn't want her son to have his own

11:35

Christmas baggage. She didn't want to repeat

11:37

her dad's mistakes.

11:40

What's your response

11:41

hearing that, Tim? It's

11:44

definitely

11:44

definitely humbling and

11:47

making me realize how

11:50

how privileged I was, I

11:52

definitely grew up upper middle

11:54

class, unlike you, Anna. And so there

11:56

were never any financial issues

11:59

for me with the holidays.

12:00

So for for the finances

12:03

being an issue, that that never

12:05

even crossed my radar. Even

12:07

though Tim's parents were separated, his whole

12:09

family would get together every Christmas at his

12:11

grandparents home. His parents

12:13

weren't the most affectionate, And so the

12:15

main way they showed him love was through

12:17

gifts and building memories.

12:19

And so

12:19

those those are really precious moments.

12:22

that I try to recreate and at

12:24

least be responsible for

12:26

making sure my kid's experience

12:29

as well. So here,

12:30

Iana and Tim were these many years

12:33

later. For Tim, gifts a symbol of

12:35

love. For Iana, gifts a

12:37

source

12:37

of stress. in

12:38

a way they're trying to do what their younger selves

12:41

would have wanted. And last

12:43

year, the spirit of young

12:44

Tim won out. On the

12:49

day after Christmas, the whole family gathered

12:51

at the Gulf of Mexico. It was

12:52

a cold day by Florida standards.

12:55

they met the captain and set off on the

12:57

boat. We get there and the captain

12:59

is like if Barney was a

13:01

real person but like drank

13:03

and cursed he was just this big

13:05

jolly guy and

13:07

we get on the boat and he's like, this is

13:09

what we're gonna do. We're gonna go out this many

13:10

feet. And then we're gonna do

13:12

that. And every time you get a fish, you yell, fish

13:14

on. Fish on. Fish on.

13:16

And by the end of the

13:19

day, we're all yelling, fish

13:21

on. every five minutes.

13:23

And

13:23

Mike, he he runs around the boat screaming

13:25

and everyone's like celebrating anytime somebody

13:27

catches something, they'd like give

13:29

us, like, these lessons on a fish. So, like,

13:31

someone will catch up really cool looking fish and we're

13:33

like,

13:33

what's that? He's like, this is a blue eyed

13:36

puppy. lipid it,

13:37

you know, and then we had a cocked about

13:39

it and it was so fun. It

13:41

was a complete blast.

13:43

Every single person caught a fish,

13:46

Wow. Yeah. My my son

13:48

had never been fishing before. He

13:50

caught he caught a little

13:52

gripper. He caught a lot of fish, actually.

13:54

We took the fish home. We cooked

13:56

it. We ate it. It's so

13:59

good.

13:59

Yeah. In fact, in fact, it was

14:02

so good. I guess, Diana, you could tell

14:04

it, but it was so good that

14:06

you were the only person who was not fishing

14:08

-- Yeah. -- because you had the baby.

14:10

Yeah. You and you never done it before. but

14:12

you Yeah. I don't like But you now, you

14:14

wanna go back next year and Oh, yeah.

14:17

I'm fishing next time. Yeah. because because the fish

14:19

was so good. Next

14:22

year, as in the trip that caused their

14:24

latest fight is on its way to

14:26

becoming a family tradition. This

14:29

is the thing about compromise, even

14:31

when it's forced compromise. When

14:33

you step into someone else's version of

14:35

things, sometimes, but not

14:37

always, you find out you like how

14:39

things look from their point of view.

14:41

Iona's perspective on her

14:43

husband's gifts has changed a

14:45

bit. in part out of a sense

14:47

of futility. You

14:48

know, it's annoying,

14:51

really. But, I mean, it's like it happens every

14:53

year. Right? But also

14:54

I guess,

14:55

I honestly, they always do pay

14:57

off. I have to be honest. But you know what?

14:59

We struggled until probably

15:01

March. The fishing

15:02

trip put them in the red for a few

15:05

months, like it meant that they didn't have the two

15:07

hundred dollars they needed to sign up their

15:09

son for basketball.

15:11

In a way, Iana was right. They weren't

15:13

in the best financial position to go all

15:15

out for Christmas. But

15:17

for Tim, it's about more than money.

15:19

It's about how life is fleeting. So

15:22

financial sacrifices are worthwhile if

15:24

the outcome is a great memory with people

15:26

you care about. Any hopes

15:28

she'll keep coming around to that?

15:30

It

15:30

definitely makes me sad

15:33

to to think what I thought

15:35

was just a unanimously good

15:37

time for most people that

15:40

it it could really trigger

15:42

a lot of financial anxiety

15:44

from your childhood. you

15:47

know, partially, I think it's my

15:49

mission to to

15:51

try to reverse the

15:53

curse here. They're planning

15:54

to go on the fishing trip this Christmas.

15:56

But if they do run into a financial

15:59

mishap, Diana's hoping that Tim will

16:01

be willing to step into her shoes

16:03

and do what she wished her dad had done,

16:05

which is make the ordinary feel a

16:07

little more magical. Like,

16:08

this is the blanket that we watch our Christmas

16:11

movies under every Yeah.

16:13

You know what I mean? Like, let's make our Christmas

16:15

popcorn. It's total easy things

16:17

that don't cost an arm and a

16:19

leg.

16:21

Going out of your way to make a day

16:22

special for the people you love can

16:25

cost hundreds of dollars. or

16:27

it can come from a fuzzy quilt blanket

16:29

and

16:29

a special bowl of buttery

16:31

popcorn. After

16:34

the break, when your world falls apart,

16:35

generosity can come from

16:38

unexpected places.

16:59

What

17:00

do you think about a lot and

17:02

need to talk about more? I just have the

17:04

big secret that I can't tell

17:07

anybody. Death sex and money

17:09

is an interview podcast featuring

17:12

unusually personal conversations. For

17:14

the first time in my

17:16

life, I do not need a man to

17:18

be home. And that's what our

17:20

life is supposed to be about and man,

17:22

it takes work. It doesn't just

17:24

happen. I'm Anna

17:26

Sail. Find out sex and money wherever

17:28

you get your podcasts. Hi.

17:30

It's comedian, Tiggnotaro,

17:32

and my podcast don't ask

17:34

big is back with all new

17:37

episodes. Look, I don't have

17:39

all the answers, but with help from

17:41

guests like Kristen

17:43

Bell, Shirley Ralph and Randy Jackson

17:45

will offer a funny and

17:47

honest advice to life's many

17:50

issues. like removing bad

17:52

vibes from an inheritance given

17:54

by an evil relative to how

17:56

to snap out of a crush

17:58

on your therapist.

17:59

We can't promise good advice, but it

18:02

will definitely be a good

18:04

time. Listen to don't ask TIG

18:06

wherever

18:06

you get your podcasts.

18:09

So before we get into

18:10

this next story, just a heads up that

18:12

it touches on domestic violence.

18:16

How how

18:17

would your friends

18:18

and family describe you?

18:22

i My

18:23

friends and family would describe me

18:26

probably as

18:28

an eternal

18:29

optimist.

18:31

Ever since she was a kid, Herta has been

18:34

the kind of person who looks at a problem

18:36

and thinks, surely, there's

18:38

a solution. like, we

18:40

shouldn't give up. Hold on to

18:42

hope. You know? Throughout this

18:44

interview, you can hear the optimism in

18:46

her voice. even as she talks about one

18:48

of the hardest things she's been

18:50

through. Kirsten grew up

18:52

watching Zeno Warrior Princess. That

18:54

nineties show about the kick ass heroin who

18:56

defended the helpless and never gave up the fight

18:58

no matter how fierce her

19:00

opponent.

19:02

Krisa

19:02

was obsessed. That was that little

19:04

girl running around trying to be zena?

19:07

Krisa was raised in a strict

19:10

community where questioning authority,

19:12

especially in the church, didn't go

19:14

over well. You're supposed to wear dresses

19:16

because you're not supposed to wear that which

19:18

pertain it to

19:18

a man. So I

19:21

wore pants and

19:25

you know, it was it was controversy.

19:27

I thought it was stupid that

19:29

women couldn't

19:30

wear pants. She

19:32

was a devout Christian.

19:33

She just didn't get what her church had against pants.

19:36

That kind of attitude, challenging what a

19:38

proper godly woman should or

19:40

shouldn't do, didn't fly.

19:42

Hers' dad also thought a secular

19:44

feminist show like Zena was a bad

19:46

influence. My dad basically

19:48

was like this is

19:50

paganism. He thought they were walking Christianity

19:52

and stuff like that. And that, like, he

19:54

didn't want that influence. And

19:56

then he set down

19:57

the rule that there's no more to see

20:00

that. She

20:00

still secretly

20:01

watched sometimes. Throughout her

20:03

childhood though, from her parents, from her

20:05

church, She got the message loud and

20:08

clear. If you don't stop being so loud,

20:10

no man's gonna wanna

20:10

marry you. Men

20:12

don't like opinionated women.

20:15

Her mom tell her that. She'd

20:17

also say, but if you become the

20:19

right type of woman, then you will

20:21

attract a wonderful man of God and have a

20:23

good proper life with him.

20:26

And what young girl wouldn't want a nice

20:28

husband in a good life? Krista

20:30

did want that for herself, but she

20:32

also wanted a Christian man who

20:34

treat her like an equal. I figured we'd both

20:36

go off to work, right,

20:38

doing good positive things

20:40

for humanity and then come home

20:43

and, like, have someone to talk to

20:45

over dinner and

20:47

have really a battle

20:49

buddy, a person who

20:52

you know, whether it's me and you save the world or me and

20:54

you against the world, like it's me and you.

20:56

She kept this dream in the back

20:58

of her head as she graduated high school, went into

21:00

the military, finished college. Until

21:03

finally, she met her husband when she

21:05

was twenty six. He

21:08

was twenty years her senior.

21:10

He was putting flooring down

21:12

at my parents house and

21:14

he and my parents went to church together

21:16

and I had just gotten back from

21:18

college and needed a

21:20

place to stay. Chris

21:22

is the type of person who thinks if someone is doing work

21:24

around your house, he should offer them something to

21:26

eat and drink. So she made

21:28

him an omelet. I

21:30

ended up sitting down at the kitchen table -- Mhmm. -- with

21:33

him and we got into a

21:36

theological debate. Mhmm.

21:37

moon Yeah.

21:39

About what? Yeah.

21:42

Everything. I it was three

21:44

hours. Oh my gosh. Afterwards,

21:48

he, like, shook my hand and

21:50

was like, thank you for sparring with me.

21:53

And it felt like, oh,

21:55

he respected me. And after

21:57

the military, I was so used to

21:59

men just not respecting my ideas at

22:01

all that I really appreciated that

22:03

Even though

22:04

they didn't agree on everything, he

22:06

was definitely more traditional than her. She

22:08

liked that for once. She'd met a man who

22:10

liked her

22:12

fighting spirit. Kurt said joined his bible study and he

22:14

started pursuing her romantically. A year

22:16

and a half later, they

22:18

were engaged. marriage meant

22:20

that I was finally

22:22

the type of

22:23

woman that I was

22:25

supposed to be. I

22:28

could finally, you

22:30

know, say that I've

22:32

accomplished this. She'd

22:34

proven her parents wrong. She

22:36

found a man who wanted to hear her

22:38

opinions and talk about them, and he

22:40

was a man of

22:41

God. But

22:45

before they'd even married, cracks

22:47

in her relationship started to

22:49

show. There were a few times when

22:51

he got angry

22:53

while we were engaged.

22:55

I thought it was normal

22:58

because prior military,

23:01

I knew a lot of different spouses

23:03

who their husband had PTSD

23:05

and they threw stuff. And

23:07

so I just thought that's how

23:10

men acted. That's just

23:11

how men process their emotions.

23:14

As long as he doesn't hurt me, it's okay

23:16

she'd

23:16

tell herself.

23:17

And besides, god would never let a good Christian man hurt

23:20

me. So she went forward

23:22

with the wedding planning. We were sitting

23:24

in my

23:24

parents' living room, on the

23:26

couch, I think we had

23:28

just had dinner with my parents, and

23:30

we were just discussing what we

23:32

would want for a wedding.

23:36

basically making a list, you

23:38

know, things that we need. Money

23:40

was tight, and so Khrsa wanted to make

23:42

a wedding registry. She wanted just a few things to make her feel like

23:44

the house he already owned belonged to her

23:47

too. You know, things like

23:48

a spoon rest or curtains.

23:50

Just

23:51

kind of having that connection to

23:53

my friends and family through the

23:56

items that were going to

23:57

decorate my house.

23:59

Okay.

24:00

And he basically was like, I

24:03

don't wanna take advantage of our

24:05

friends and family. Like, I

24:07

can provide whatever we need. Like,

24:09

God can provide whatever we

24:11

need. And

24:12

so you you sort of caved and said, okay.

24:15

Fine. Yeah. If

24:17

you're

24:17

a good Christian woman, sweet and obedient,

24:20

then God is going to take care of you.

24:22

You shouldn't ask others for things.

24:24

Don't be so materialistic.

24:27

That's the sentiment she was raised with,

24:29

and now she was hearing it

24:30

from her future husband.

24:34

After the

24:34

wedding, Chris' friends and family thought she was

24:36

a newly wed bliss, but

24:39

her husband's anger problems only

24:41

got worse. being the

24:43

person that I am. I was

24:45

looking up books. I was

24:47

trying to understand what

24:49

a Christian man was supposed to

24:52

be. In my head,

24:54

I was, you know,

24:56

thinking that he is

24:58

a flawed human.

25:00

He's a sinner just like myself and

25:03

that I needed to show him

25:06

mercy, be understanding And,

25:08

you know, in my mind,

25:10

I mean, I was on the Internet, like, am

25:12

I am I crazy? Like, is

25:15

it me? Then

25:17

early

25:17

on in their marriage, her

25:19

husband crossed an obvious line.

25:21

He became physically violent.

25:23

Chris had coped the way

25:25

she'd been taught to. praying

25:26

a lot out loud sometimes.

25:29

Especially after

25:30

violence occurred, oftentimes

25:33

I'd be turning

25:34

to God and asking him

25:37

for delivering slice of

25:38

hose? Corsa would

25:40

try the

25:40

strategies she'd learned from those

25:43

books. Set boundaries, don't engage,

25:46

stay calm, but

25:48

things didn't get any better. Everything

25:50

always felt so tense.

25:52

She remembers one day they driving in the car, and they were

25:54

having a conversation about women's modesty

25:56

when Carissa countered his

25:59

argument. Well, in different cultures,

26:01

modesty is different.

26:03

And then him being like,

26:05

should I let you dress like a

26:07

slut? And

26:08

I was like, I'm done with this conversation.

26:10

I was like,

26:11

you can keep talking, but I'm just not gonna say

26:13

anything. And I was completely monotone

26:15

and he just flipped out. And I was

26:18

like, that's when I said, oh, it's

26:20

not me. And after I got back

26:22

to his house, I I packed a bag and

26:23

I left.

26:25

She moved out of his house,

26:26

packed all of her belongings and big plastic

26:29

bins, and filed for

26:30

divorce. I was sitting

26:32

in the

26:34

place that I'm renting now and

26:36

it was just so

26:39

still and quiet. And

26:41

I just had felt like I

26:43

I hadn't been in stillness

26:45

like that in literally years.

26:48

And

26:50

It was this weird combination of

26:52

peace and death

26:55

that I was thinking of. Peace and

26:57

what? Sorry. Oh,

26:59

death. I

27:01

felt like

27:03

the

27:03

Living Dead. I felt like

27:06

a zombie. I felt

27:08

like I had to find my

27:10

spirit again. And so

27:12

the journey began.

27:15

She borrowed some

27:18

furniture from a friend, but the new house

27:21

was sparse. Most

27:23

of

27:23

my stuff was still in boxes because

27:25

I hadn't unpacked yet. It

27:27

was snowing outside, like, everything was

27:29

wrapped up in blanket of white

27:31

and my financial situation was

27:34

I was living off my GI

27:36

bill and barely making it

27:38

through school. Were

27:39

you thinking at that point, like, let me

27:41

reach out to family and friends and see if

27:43

they can be of any help?

27:46

I really didn't want to tell

27:49

people, but obviously,

27:51

I was gonna have to She

27:54

didn't

27:54

wanna have to deal with people's

27:56

judgments. I think it was just like shame. It's

27:58

like God hates divorce.

27:59

That's like a huge huge

28:02

thing in Christianity. I

28:04

was going to be a divorced woman. I felt shame

28:07

because being beaten

28:09

or whatever, like, you

28:11

obviously have bruises and stuff

28:14

and people like, kitty

28:16

you, especially because I'm a

28:17

I'm a veteran. Right? Like,

28:20

I'm

28:20

I'm this supposed to be the

28:23

strong

28:23

woman. And

28:26

so, you know, so that

28:28

kind of those

28:28

those kind of feelings of shame,

28:29

just disappointing religious

28:31

people, disappointing feminists,

28:35

disappointing everyone. She

28:37

was also trying to reconcile who she

28:40

was in the marriage with who she'd wanted to

28:42

be. In a desperate attempt to make

28:44

the relationship work, she'd internalized all those

28:46

messages she'd heard as a kid from her family

28:48

in church. And in doing

28:50

so, she'd quieted the more authentic,

28:52

more rebellious side of herself.

28:54

I think there was always inside of

28:57

me, there was always been the little girl who

28:59

loved Zeno Warrior Princess,

29:01

this woman who really

29:04

believed in

29:07

women's rights

29:07

and was always trying to

29:09

empower women. And then

29:12

there

29:12

was that

29:14

the the internal struggle

29:16

of that being against

29:19

god because men are

29:21

supposed to be leaders. and that desire that

29:23

I had was basically from

29:25

the devil.

29:28

In the weeks after the

29:28

separation, Khrysa was barely

29:31

leaving house and had a hard time shopping

29:33

for herself, terrified she might run into

29:35

her ex at the store.

29:37

And then I think it was around that

29:39

I actually got a TikTok because I

29:41

was so sad, like, every single

29:44

day. And then I

29:46

found, like, religious abuse

29:48

TikTok. And then I found domestic

29:50

violence TikTok. And from there, I

29:52

found military sexual trauma at

29:54

TikTok. And I was like, alright. there

29:56

are others, you know? After

29:58

so

29:58

much isolation

29:59

and shame, she'd found

30:02

a community. Kris

30:03

has started making videos of her own. Hello,

30:05

TikTok. I have about a hundred and

30:07

sixty five followers right now,

30:10

and I'm super thankful and I'm really glad that we have

30:12

this little community. Sitting

30:13

there in

30:14

her living room chair. Princess

30:16

started to open up. My domestic

30:18

abuse is the first

30:19

trauma that I've really been willing

30:21

to

30:21

talk about, but I feel like I'm

30:24

eventually going to speak about all

30:26

of them. As she grew following

30:27

and started spending more time on the app,

30:29

she discovered something a lot of creators

30:31

were doing. They'd share an

30:33

Amazon wish list with their followers.

30:36

And Chris had realized you could ask for things even

30:38

if you weren't engaged or pregnant. And

30:41

people, kind strangers, which is

30:44

give them to you. I think that

30:45

that kind of is where it

30:48

started. I said, well,

30:49

I'm not gonna do an Amazon

30:52

wish list, I'm gonna do a registry,

30:54

a registry,

30:55

but for her divorce.

30:57

And

31:00

you know, I never thought of this before hearing

31:02

her story. But honestly, it makes so

31:04

much sense. Like, we're totally

31:06

fine with people starting registries for

31:08

their marriages. at a moment in time when people

31:10

are combining their money and all of their

31:11

stuff. But why not at

31:13

a moment when people suddenly don't have

31:15

a blender anymore or half of their

31:18

furniture? So, Krissa

31:19

decided she'd asked for things

31:21

that she would have put on her wedding registry

31:23

if her ex had let her have one.

31:26

She

31:26

looked around her new empty apartment. She needed curtains,

31:28

some sheets. She also just wanted

31:30

new things, you know, to create more positive

31:33

associations with her stuff. I

31:35

asked for a purse,

31:39

curtains, asked for bedding, I

31:41

asked for spice jars, the

31:44

towels, Other items were

31:46

more symbolic, like jars for

31:48

craft supplies.

31:49

I make jewelry and I was getting back into

31:51

that which was empowering

31:54

because he believed that

31:56

having your ears pierced was worship

31:58

in the

31:59

devil. So Yeah. Yeah.

32:03

After

32:03

she'd compiled all the items and made

32:05

the registry, it was finally time to share

32:08

it. She was

32:09

nervous. I just I

32:12

don't know. I just didn't know

32:14

what to really expect. She

32:18

posted it on Facebook and waited to see how her

32:20

church community would respond to

32:22

a

32:22

divorce registry. Nobody

32:24

really said anything. I

32:26

think there is, like, maybe one or two, like

32:29

it sounds

32:29

like, really, nobody in your in

32:31

your personal life got you anything from

32:34

it. No. When you go

32:37

through intimate partner violence, there's

32:39

the isolation that the

32:41

person is causing. And so I

32:43

there was really no one

32:46

that I was as close to as

32:48

I had once been.

32:50

Only one person from her real life bought

32:53

or something. a off registry, a

32:55

Zena box set. It

32:57

was extremely, like,

32:59

poetic justice to reclaim

33:02

those DVDs Krisa also

33:04

shared her registry to TikTok with that

33:06

newfound community of strangers. Like

33:07

as I'm making this, I'm super

33:10

anxious about it. I

33:12

feel like if people know the things that I want them, they know the lifestyle

33:14

that I wanna live, I'm really nervous about

33:16

being judged. But the reason I'm doing this

33:18

is because we need to normalize the

33:21

divorce registries. Tagged me in the movie. away,

33:23

strangers, mostly women, responded with

33:25

dozens and dozens of comments.

33:27

Like, congratulations, I am so

33:29

happy for you, or A

33:31

divorce registry is brilliant. I wish I'd done that. Just

33:34

overwhelmingly positive feedback.

33:36

Then not long after she shared

33:39

that, packages of towels and kitchen items

33:41

started arriving at Corus' door.

33:43

Fresh new things without any

33:45

bad memories attached. It was just

33:47

kind of enlivening to my spirit because

33:54

I don't know everything I'd been through. It just reminded

33:56

me that people still care. After

34:00

years of

34:00

hearing about the importance of self sacrifice,

34:03

of not putting too much value on materialistic stuff.

34:06

Corcept finally believed she deserved

34:08

things, and she'd been brave enough to ask

34:10

for them.

34:10

the for them I

34:12

had put a colorful kind of gem toned

34:14

of like blues, purples,

34:16

and like burgundy's comforter.

34:20

and pillowcase on my divorce

34:22

registry and this fellow

34:25

domestic violence survivor who

34:27

I didn't know she'd never reached

34:29

out to me or anything, but she got me that in

34:31

the note. It said something along the lines of,

34:34

like, I know what it's like

34:36

to need these things and so that she wanted to do

34:38

that. How is teary

34:39

eyed?

34:40

HRSA knows that

34:41

the struggle

34:42

knows that the struggle she say she faced starting

34:44

over after domestic abuse isn't unique to her.

34:46

But all the generosity she

34:49

received, she's determined to

34:51

pay it forward. That one was like, wow. And

34:53

you know, I just thought, I'm gonna do that for

34:55

someone someday.

34:58

Someday. because it's not ending.

35:00

It's like an epidemic. But

35:02

someday, some woman who is

35:06

just totally

35:06

crushed spirit and

35:08

willpower. I'm

35:08

gonna get her a comforter.

35:16

Depending

35:16

on the generosity of someone, whether it's a

35:18

stranger or even a partner, it's vulnerable.

35:20

In a way, it forces us to accept

35:22

that it's okay for people to nurture us.

35:25

despite what we may have been told when we

35:27

were younger. Being generous can also be

35:29

nerve wracking, like my friend Yousid, who wondered if

35:31

he'd be stuck paying for everyone's lunch

35:33

all year long. Ariana and Tim who, like many of us, have

35:35

to balance being giving with also being

35:38

financially realistic.

35:41

But I think when done without expectations

35:43

or judgment, generosity, giving,

35:45

and receiving can feel like

35:47

a trustfall. Sometimes you're

35:49

the one falling. and sometimes you're

35:51

holding others up.

36:06

Alright. That is

36:09

all for our show this

36:10

week. If you have any thoughts about this

36:13

story or just shoot us a

36:15

note, you can always email me and the team at uncomfortablemarketplace

36:17

dot org. We love hearing from

36:20

y'all. Also, do not forget to sign up for our

36:22

weekly news

36:24

letter if you haven't already. There are always really great wrex in there for things to

36:26

cook or listen to or watch. In this

36:29

week's newsletter, I write about my

36:31

own cross cultural experiences with

36:34

Generos city. You can sign up for that at marketplace dot org

36:38

comfort. And be sure

36:40

to tune in

36:42

next week We've got an episode you won't want to miss.

36:44

I'm

36:44

leaving off fake comments

36:47

and not only

36:50

that it's a fake romance. It's a fake romance that I am

36:52

paying for. Next time

36:54

on this

36:54

is uncomfortable. When one woman suspects

36:57

she's being scammed, she goes deep

36:59

into the shadows of the Internet on a mission to outsmart

37:02

scammers. I

37:02

don't want a scammer that I

37:04

want a scammer in jail for

37:08

what she has thought. But sometimes,

37:10

a quest for justice takes

37:12

over your life. That's next week

37:15

on this is uncomfortable. This

37:17

episode

37:17

was Lee produced by

37:20

me, Alice Wilder, and hosted by

37:22

Rima Chrace. The episode

37:24

got into personal support from producers Camilo Kerwin and Peter Balan

37:26

on Rosen. Zoe Saunders is

37:28

our senior producer. Our editor

37:30

is Karen Duffin. Marque

37:32

Green is

37:34

our producer with help from Tony Wagner. Our intern

37:36

is Canal Patel. Sound

37:38

design and audio engineering by Drew

37:40

Jawstad. Donna Tam is the

37:42

director of on demand.

37:44

Francesca Levy is the executive director

37:46

of digital, and our theme music

37:48

is by wonderly. This is

37:49

uncomfortable, is supported in part by the Si

37:52

Sims foundation. Partnering with

37:54

organizations and people working for a

37:56

better and more just

37:56

future since nineteen eighty

37:58

five.

38:00

Alright.

38:01

We'll catch you all

38:04

next week.

38:08

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