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0:59

When Michael Carroll started working as an assistant

1:01

for The Bachelor in the early 2000s, reality

1:04

dating shows were still a relatively new

1:06

concept. Producers were

1:08

mostly winging it, experimenting with different

1:10

ways to make compelling TV. Michael

1:13

was intrigued by how they would create all this

1:15

drama between contestants. Just

1:18

pulling emotion out of people and making people

1:20

do things or planting

1:23

seeds to make people think or do things.

1:26

I was like, wow, this is fascinating.

1:29

Michael wanted to know what it felt like to pull the

1:31

strings. There's a power that comes

1:33

to the realization that you can manipulate

1:36

people into doing things you want them to do.

1:39

But it wasn't just about the power. He

1:41

was more so drawn to the creative process of

1:44

figuring out how to make something out of

1:46

nothing, how to craft a juicy, dramatic

1:48

storyline. When he got

1:50

a promotion and became a producer, he finally

1:53

got his chance. One of the most

1:55

challenging parts of his job was during the

1:57

highly anticipated

1:58

rose ceremonies. If

2:00

you are not familiar, that is when The Bachelor

2:02

chooses which of the women vying for his affection

2:05

will make it through to the next episode. We

2:07

are all going into

2:08

the Rose Ceremony. It's really nerve-wracking

2:11

just because there's a chance I'm going to go home. Ladies,

2:14

I'm sorry. If you did not receive a rose, take

2:17

a moment. Say goodbyes.

2:21

The producers had to do exit interviews with

2:23

each of the failed contestants. And

2:25

those interviews had a very explicit goal.

2:28

Like if there were 10 women who got sent home

2:30

that episode. You've got to make 10 girls

2:32

cry or 10 girls be upset or get

2:34

some kind of great sound bite out of them as they

2:36

leave.

2:39

Making someone cry was apparently the holy

2:41

grail, like the equivalent of scoring a business

2:44

deal in your corporate job. The producers,

2:46

the good ones, would congratulate you. Like,

2:49

welcome, you're one of us now. Maybe

2:51

you'd even get a bottle of tequila. The

2:53

tequila was the carrot,

2:54

but there was also a stick. I

2:57

heard a couple times, if you don't make this chick cry, you're

2:59

fired. And that was more

3:01

of like a joke, winky winky. But of course

3:03

you're going to have that in your head. Like, oh, she's

3:06

serious. Under

3:08

that kind of pressure, Michael would try to get personal.

3:11

You know, dig into her psychology or

3:13

her character defects or her issues

3:17

and go, OK, there's one that will get her, you know?

3:21

Maybe something like, I know you were

3:23

cheated on in college. Does this rejection

3:25

remind you of that? Why do you think this keeps

3:28

happening

3:28

to you? So it's almost like, are

3:30

you worthy? Became a really easy

3:33

one to go to. And

3:35

cue the waterworks.

3:38

Why am I so hard to love? Why

3:42

am I always so misunderstood?

3:46

Michael explains that there is a formula

3:49

for making great TV. And

3:51

if a crying girl is one component,

3:53

then the show's villain is the key ingredient.

3:57

You got to have someone who stirs the pot.

3:59

that out quickly in the

4:01

casting process. Like, ooh, maybe

4:04

we have a villain. Who would it be? It's

4:06

the girl who has a chip on her shoulder. It's the

4:08

girl that thinks she's hotter

4:11

than everybody or has

4:13

strong opinions on other women. You're

4:15

like, okay, this would be a great person to make him

4:17

to a villain. We can start really

4:19

heavily producing him into being what

4:21

we want.

4:23

Every once in a while, especially when he was alone,

4:26

Michael would feel guilty thinking back on the seasons

4:28

he'd worked on. Like, did we really

4:30

have to make this woman cry or vilify

4:33

that person? But then

4:35

he'd think. It's not like we're trying to save the

4:37

world and make everyone really fall in love. Like, that's

4:39

great, but the driving force is

4:41

making quality television that people want to watch.

4:44

And so with that in mind, he wouldn't feel

4:47

that bad. The majority of the time,

4:49

to be honest, I got to

4:51

the place where I was like, these people signed up for it.

4:54

The vast majority want attention,

4:57

if not fame. So if it's

4:59

great for you, terrific. If it sucks for you, you

5:01

kinda knew what you were getting into.

5:04

And if you didn't, you should've thought about it.

5:10

I'm Rima Reis, and welcome to This is Uncomfortable,

5:13

the show for Marketplace where we talk about how money

5:15

makes life messy. And today

5:17

we are talking about something really messy, reality

5:20

dating

5:20

shows. If you're like me,

5:23

you know how easy it is to get sucked into

5:25

these shows. They can be really addictive,

5:27

which might be why over the past 20 years, reality

5:31

TV's popularity has skyrocketed.

5:33

Some reports say reality

5:34

TV accounts for more than 70% of prime

5:36

time viewing. It

5:39

is a winning formula for networks. They

5:41

can bring in millions in ad revenue and

5:43

are relatively cheap to produce since they

5:45

don't require a big team of writers and

5:48

they don't always have to pay the cast. With

5:50

the Hollywood writers strike dragging into

5:53

the summer, many have speculated that networks

5:55

will turn to reality TV to fill in

5:57

programming

5:57

gaps. And while these kinds of things are

5:59

messy,

7:58

that like I own

8:01

my own business. And I was like, I also-

8:03

She is a busy, successful woman, which

8:05

might intimidate some guys. Her

8:08

third theory is that she's very upfront.

8:10

If she likes a guy, she tells him, which

8:13

maybe freaks him out. The fourth

8:15

theory is that, you know,

8:18

in the least conceited way possible,

8:20

I'm a pretty girl and guys like 80%

8:22

of the time want to sleep

8:24

with me. And that's the only

8:27

interaction that they want to have.

8:30

I've always wondered what draws people to apply for

8:32

reality TV shows, why you would decide

8:34

to catapult your life into the limelight. I

8:37

imagine most people seek it out, but

8:39

for Nadia, she kind of just stumbled into

8:41

it. At the time, life was busy. She

8:43

was living in New Jersey. She had a full-time job

8:46

in marketing, along with the wedding planning business

8:48

on the side.

8:49

One day, her friend told her about this casting call

8:52

she'd seen, and Nadia thought, sure,

8:55

why not? She wanted a husband. I

8:57

had tried literally everything.

9:00

So I was like, well, I have nothing to lose by, by trying

9:02

this. And were there any conversations

9:04

about compensation? They

9:08

were very clear from the beginning

9:10

that we were not going to be compensated

9:12

for appearing on the show.

9:15

This isn't unusual for reality

9:17

dating shows. There are, of course,

9:19

exceptions, but many contestants do

9:21

not get paid. They sign contracts

9:23

that make it clear that they're appearing as participants

9:26

and not performers, which would guarantee

9:29

more legal protections. This

9:31

is also partly why it's cheaper to produce reality

9:33

TV. It can cost less than $500,000 to

9:36

make an episode of a reality show, whereas

9:39

a scripted episode can cost a few million

9:41

per episode. Nadia

9:43

wasn't too hung up on the details, though. She was

9:45

just excited she actually got chosen. When

9:48

production started, the days of shooting were long

9:50

and arduous. They'd shoot her meeting with

9:52

the matchmaker, going on dates, doing debriefs

9:55

with the producers.

9:56

She had to take several days off from work to film,

9:59

and she had to shell out...

11:59

just radiated. My

12:02

name is Nadia Jagasar. I'm fun,

12:04

adventurous. My, like, life motto is

12:06

try everything once. She was

12:08

the sweetheart of the show, the star of the

12:10

rom-com who is down on her luck, who

12:13

you automatically root for. And

12:15

at the end of the season, her experience on the show seems

12:18

to pay off. She walks off

12:20

into the sunset after a first date with a

12:22

lawyer named

12:23

Shaker. I mean, it was as if we've known each

12:25

other for a long time. I

12:27

think I'm a little smitten kid. I mean,

12:30

no. But

12:33

by the time the season aired, Nadia hadn't talked

12:35

to Shaker for months. After filming

12:37

stopped, their relationship fizzled out. But

12:40

even if Nadia didn't get the relationship out of

12:42

the show, she did find that suddenly

12:44

tens of thousands of strangers were

12:46

rooting for her. I mean, everyone

12:49

was so excited, so supportive,

12:51

so much like the outpouring

12:53

of love was truly, like, overwhelming.

12:56

People would share their stories of like, hey,

12:58

I met my husband when X, Y, and

13:01

Z happened. So, like, don't lose hope.

13:04

And Nadia was so overwhelmed with all the

13:06

support, she felt pressure to keep conforming

13:08

to that sweetheart persona. She

13:10

wanted to be able to respond to all the messages she

13:12

got. And when people asked her to appear

13:15

at events, she would do it, even

13:17

if they weren't offering any money. She did

13:19

get some paid gigs, like some sponsored

13:21

Instagram posts, but it wasn't

13:23

a lot. It cost me way more

13:26

money to be on the show or

13:30

even the aftermath of the show to

13:33

go to all of these things than I actually

13:35

was making.

13:36

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

13:38

Nadia was happy, but she was also really,

13:41

really stressed. Her life was

13:43

suddenly so different.

13:45

All these strangers were acting like they knew her

13:47

because they'd seen her on TV. They'd

13:49

email her at work, call her house.

13:52

One guy even showed up at her doorstep.

13:54

Yeah, couldn't find a therapist fast

13:56

enough. I just didn't

13:59

know how. to process

14:02

the response. I didn't know how to process

14:04

everybody's opinions of me.

14:07

Then the following year, a producer from

14:09

the show called her up and was like, do

14:12

you want to come back on for season two? She

14:15

hesitated. I was like, does it seem

14:18

desperate if I go on again? Or people are gonna be like, damn,

14:20

this girl's still single. And they were

14:22

like, look, you have nothing to lose by

14:25

trying again. And I was like,

14:27

okay, fine. She

14:31

still wanted to find love, and she hoped

14:33

that this time around she'd have better luck. Also,

14:36

yeah, there were drawbacks to being on the show, but

14:38

overwhelmingly people loved her. And

14:40

who knows what other opportunities

14:41

she might get from the exposure. So

14:44

she signed up for season two. When

14:47

they started filming, producers told her they'd

14:49

put her on some new dates and that they'd

14:51

shoot some scenes with her and Shaker to

14:53

show viewers that they're good friends now. And

14:56

I was like, cool, that sounds

14:58

great. And that is like very accurate to what is

15:00

happening. So she went

15:02

through the whole process again. She started

15:04

dating someone on the show and they filmed a bunch

15:06

of scenes and debriefs. But ultimately,

15:09

by the time production wrapped, Nadia was

15:11

still single. She did not find

15:13

her soulmate. Once again, she was

15:15

getting ready to watch herself date unsuccessfully

15:18

on Netflix.

15:21

Can

15:21

you tell me about the moment that you watched

15:23

season two for the first time? Oh,

15:25

my God. I was in my parents'

15:28

house. And what she was seeing

15:30

on the screen, it did not match at all with

15:32

what she remembered. There are some

15:34

scenes I literally sat up

15:37

and yelled at the TV. I was like, what? And

15:40

then like a jaw on the floor. And

15:42

I'm like, what is

15:45

this?

15:48

Without getting into the weeds too much, the

15:51

show basically was edited to look like Shaker

15:53

was still Nadia's boyfriend or that

15:55

there was at least something between them. We

15:57

reached out to Shaker for this episode and he.

15:59

didn't reply, but in previous interviews

16:02

he also indicated

16:03

that they were not dating at the time.

16:06

But the show made it look like Nadia ruthlessly

16:08

left him for another guy who she kissed

16:10

right in front of him. I'm like, oh

16:13

my god, like people must think I

16:15

am a bitch and so they were

16:17

basically

16:19

somewhat tearing me down to build

16:22

him up. She's not

16:24

wrong. I remember watching the show during

16:26

a family vacation and I actually gasped

16:29

at certain scenes. I even brought my brother into

16:31

the living room to watch it with me because

16:33

I thought what Nadia was doing felt

16:35

shockingly mean and you know it

16:37

made for good TV. Like

16:39

most viewers, I just assumed what I

16:41

was watching is what actually happened.

16:44

I couldn't have known that real-life Nadia was

16:46

fuming.

16:47

After she watched the show, she called one of the producers

16:50

who she considered a friend at the time. They'd even

16:52

gone to a hockey game together. I

16:54

was mad at everybody because I was like, how

16:56

could they do this to me? Like I opened my home

16:58

to you, like my family like cooked

17:00

food, fed you, gave you alcohol, took you

17:03

out for dinners. Like

17:04

I was like, we literally welcomed you with open

17:07

arms. The producer essentially

17:09

told her, look, anyone with a

17:11

brain cell can tell what was really happening

17:13

here. You're fine. But

17:16

the hate comments were already rolling

17:18

in on social media. Like you

17:20

don't deserve love. You're gonna be single

17:22

forever. You're like, you're a hoe, you're

17:25

a this, this. Like I hope Shaker's

17:27

future son comes back and fucks you and

17:29

this, that's like who says

17:31

that to somebody? I'm

17:33

so sorry. I don't even know

17:35

how anyone is able to deal

17:38

with that kind of response.

17:41

It was wild.

17:43

She couldn't stop worrying about all the ways this

17:45

could potentially affect her life.

17:47

Who knows who might see this show? I was

17:49

like, well, now like,

17:52

are people going to like,

17:55

if I ever date somebody in the future,

17:57

is their mom or auntie

17:59

or

17:59

or whoever are gonna be like, oh,

18:02

she's just gonna go around kissing other boys in

18:04

front of her boyfriends. Is my employer,

18:07

a future employer, gonna Google my name and just

18:09

see a bunch of articles about saying like, oh,

18:11

Nadia is a cheater, Nadia breaks hearts,

18:13

Nadia is a this, Nadia is a that. And

18:16

so like, I was very worried about

18:18

that for like,

18:19

you know, my own reputation,

18:23

because like, I didn't sign up for

18:25

this.

18:29

Whenever I watch reality TV, I

18:32

can't help but wonder about the real life implications

18:34

of people indulging in your insecurities

18:36

and weaknesses for the sake of their entertainment.

18:39

Whether or not the portrayal is even accurate, how

18:42

do you handle hundreds of thousands of

18:44

strangers having parasocial relationships

18:46

with you? Increasingly, we're

18:48

learning more about what happens once the cameras

18:51

stop filming. Many former

18:53

reality TV contestants say they experienced

18:55

severe depression and anxiety. Most

18:58

notably, a couple years back, two

19:00

former contestants of Love Island died

19:02

by suicide. Many

19:05

former reality TV stars have publicly

19:07

pushed for mental health support after filming.

19:10

Like one Love Is Blind contestant who got married

19:12

on the show asked the production company for help

19:15

finding a marriage counselor. He

19:17

said, I literally begged for help and I

19:19

didn't get it. Like, I wanna fix my marriage

19:21

that you've thrust us into for profit.

19:25

It also doesn't help that many contestants, they're

19:28

on full display at their lowest moments.

19:31

For the more intense shows, they're often

19:33

deprived of sleep while offered an excess

19:35

of alcohol. Because of the pressure,

19:37

the isolation, the nonstop filming, some

19:40

have reported having panic attacks or breakdowns

19:43

only for producers to push them to keep on

19:45

filming.

19:46

Former Love Is Blind contestants recently

19:48

revealed that they signed contracts that

19:50

basically forced them to show up till the very

19:52

end of filming or else they have to pay

19:54

a $50,000 fine.

19:58

Indian matchmaking is comparatively taken. that

20:00

people on the show don't have to take weeks off of work or

20:03

live in a house filled with cameras. Even

20:06

still, the backlash Nadia experienced

20:08

was intense.

20:10

And some of her friends didn't seem to completely

20:12

get it.

20:13

Like, one of them just

20:14

texted her this Reddit thread all about

20:16

her. She thought it would be positive.

20:18

I start reading this thread, and it's just

20:20

people who are shitting on me. And I was just

20:23

like, oh, my God. So I ended up leaving work,

20:25

sitting in my car, literally hyperventilating,

20:28

called my brother, and he was like, talking

20:30

me off a cliff.

20:32

Her brother told her, listen, even

20:34

though this is about you,

20:36

it really isn't actually about you.

20:39

This is about giving audiences what they want.

20:41

It's just a formula, it's entertainment, and

20:44

you're just a pawn in that.

20:45

He's like, they built you up in season one, so he's like,

20:48

they're gonna tear you down now. That's

20:50

what makes good TV. And he was just

20:52

like, you're just a character. That's

20:54

all,

20:55

we know what happened. Your close friends

20:57

know what happened. He's like, who gives a crap

21:00

about random people on the internet? And

21:02

I was like,

21:03

yeah. It, of course,

21:05

wasn't just one light bulb moment,

21:08

but Nadia kept repeating this sentiment

21:10

to herself.

21:11

It took me a really long time to separate

21:15

character Nadia from real life

21:17

Nadia. Producer friend

21:20

from actual friend who happens to be

21:22

a producer.

21:24

Something I keep thinking about is how when Nadia

21:26

signed up for this show, she told herself she had

21:28

nothing to lose. Even producers

21:31

reminded her that when she signed up for round two.

21:33

But it is clear that when you sign a contract

21:36

for a reality dating show,

21:37

you have so much to lose. You

21:40

forfeit agency over your image and open

21:42

yourself up to ridicule and consequences that

21:44

can follow you for

21:45

the rest of your life. And even

21:47

though it can lead to more money,

21:49

it's becoming harder for reality stars to stand

21:51

out and make a lucrative

21:52

career out of being an influencer. Many

21:55

of them just return to their nine to five jobs.

21:58

If you look at Nadia's social media presence, you

22:00

can see that she's trying to make the most out of her

22:02

time on the show. She has more than

22:04

a hundred thousand followers, collaborates with brands,

22:07

and has a cameo where she charges $50 for

22:09

personalized video messages. She's

22:12

not getting rich off of it, but these days

22:14

she's at least asking for money.

22:16

She used to think that giving away her time for free

22:18

made her a nice person.

22:20

But like, nice doesn't

22:22

make money. And so now I make

22:26

sure I have my rates. I

22:29

always ask people who send me DMs for

22:31

collaborations, like, what's your budget? What's

22:34

the rate? Here's my rate sheet.

22:37

After you saw season two, did

22:39

you regret being on that show? Yeah,

22:42

a hundred percent. I

22:44

was like, are you joking? Like, this is what

22:46

they are going to use me for.

22:51

So what would it take for you to do another

22:53

season of the show? Of

22:56

Indian matchmaking, it would take a lot.

22:58

Like, they would have to pay me. They're

23:01

all making money off of this, but

23:04

it's my life that you're making money off

23:06

of, and I'm seeing zero, I'm

23:08

not even seeing a penny. I've seen zero

23:10

pennies from Netflix

23:13

slash production company. And it's like,

23:15

yeah, I'm pissed. Like,

23:17

pay me if you're going to make money

23:20

off of my life.

23:29

After the break, a reality TV producer

23:31

tries to change things from the inside.

23:42

Hey, it's Rima.

23:57

As

24:00

you might know, lots of company and non-profit

24:02

budgets run on a fiscal year rather

24:04

than a calendar year. And right now

24:06

we're nearing the end of the fiscal year for

24:09

Marketplace, the non-profit newsroom we're

24:11

part of. And because of the economic

24:13

climate, we've got this revenue shortfall.

24:16

Podcasts like this one, they take a lot

24:18

of resources to produce. So if you

24:20

want to see us continue, it would mean a lot

24:22

if you could chip in to help cover our

24:24

costs. Every single donation

24:26

makes a real difference, especially right now.

24:29

It only takes a few minutes. You can even use

24:31

PayPal or Apple Pay. You can go

24:33

over to marketplace.org slash

24:36

giveTIU

24:37

or find a link in our show notes. Thank

24:40

you so much. You

24:42

should know what that sound means already. That's

24:44

the sound of another sale on Shopify and

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the moment another business dream becomes a reality.

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Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing

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slash odyssey

25:59

podcast. One

26:01

of the things that really drew me to Indian matchmaking

26:04

was the fact that it highlighted a community you don't

26:06

often get to hear from. But even

26:08

so, after the show aired, it got some backlash

26:11

for being problematic, for perpetuating

26:13

some classist ideas, and colorism,

26:16

like participants blatantly saying things like

26:18

they want someone fair-skinned instead of dark.

26:21

Reality TV shows often come under fire

26:24

for reinforcing stereotypes,

26:26

and one of the biggest culprits of this

26:28

is the Bachelor franchise.

26:31

Jazzy Collins worked in casting at The Bachelor.

26:34

She remembers when she first got hired.

26:36

It's a huge deal to get this show,

26:39

so I was stoked

26:41

to land it.

26:42

She was the only black person in the casting department,

26:45

and while that wasn't ideal and low-key

26:47

thought

26:47

the show was a bit cheesy, she had a plan.

26:50

My hope was to

26:53

bring more people that looked

26:55

like me on the show. Like,

26:58

I want to be able to see someone

27:01

that

27:01

has natural hair or, you

27:04

know, a girl that's a little bit more fuller-figured

27:06

on the show. And

27:08

I said, well, now that I'm in it, maybe I

27:10

have the opportunity to actually

27:13

get that across the line.

27:16

Up to that point, almost every

27:18

Bachelor and Bachelorette on the show had been

27:20

white, and the vast majority of the contestants

27:22

had been white too.

27:24

Then, not long after she started, Jazzy

27:26

was called into a meeting where the head of casting

27:28

would announce the next Bachelorette.

27:31

This announcement was historic.

27:33

The show decided to cast Rachel Lindsay,

27:35

the first ever black lead

27:37

in the Bachelor franchise. And

27:40

hearing that, you know, news was just so

27:42

excited, and it just fully radiated

27:45

inside that room, inside that glass box.

27:47

I mean, this was huge news. Our

27:49

new Bachelorette is Rachel Lindsay,

27:52

making her the first black Bachelor

27:54

or Bachelorette in franchise history.

27:59

Even though I'm an African-American woman, it's no different

28:02

from any other bachelorette.

28:04

I'm not really a fan of the Bachelor franchise,

28:06

but I remember when they announced Rachel,

28:08

I thought, oh, wow, maybe I'll actually watch

28:10

that season.

28:11

Jazzy could hardly believe it.

28:14

Not only am I getting to start

28:16

this show and, like, be on

28:18

this team, I also get to cast for

28:20

the first Black Bachelorette, and that's

28:22

huge.

28:23

And so Jazzy hit the streets looking

28:26

for a diverse set of hotties to set

28:28

Rachel up with. I've always been

28:30

so curious to hear how a show like The Bachelor

28:33

goes about casting. I think I just always

28:35

assumed casting producers sat in a

28:37

bland conference room sifting through pages and

28:39

pages of applications, but apparently

28:42

fewer men apply for these shows. So

28:44

finding contestants for The Bachelorette, it

28:47

is a serious mission. We

28:49

were boots on the ground. We would go

28:52

to, like, Sweet Green. We would go to

28:54

The Mall. We would kind of go anywhere.

28:57

I'm imagining you like, are you, like, popping your head into

28:59

the Sweet Green and just looking

29:01

for people who might want to be on TV?

29:04

And then you're like, nope, nope, yeah, maybe. And

29:06

then just like... Yeah, yes, it's

29:08

exactly that. So, like, I would

29:11

see someone if they were attractive and

29:13

they had kind of, like, a presence about them. I

29:15

would stop them and I would hand them my bachelor

29:17

card and say, hey,

29:19

are you interested in being on reality TV? Jazzy

29:23

and her colleagues cast the most diverse set

29:25

of contestants that had ever been on the show. The

29:27

beauty of reality casting

29:30

is that you're plucking someone off of the

29:32

street and making them into a star.

29:35

And being able to have a hand

29:37

in that is the most incredible

29:40

situation. Like, I absolutely

29:43

love doing that. The

29:46

new season was refreshing, but

29:48

for higher-up producers, Rachel's whole

29:50

season was a bit of a gamble. They

29:52

had no idea how this was gonna land. Are

29:54

they gonna lose a whole bunch of money because

29:57

they put a black match the red on? Are they gonna lose

29:59

a whole bunch of ratings?

29:59

They don't know. This

30:02

is a shot in the dark. And what was

30:04

the result? It didn't do

30:06

as well as they hoped. There was a dip

30:08

in ratings. I think their

30:11

core fan base was

30:13

not interested, and that's what holds

30:16

the Bachelor franchise together.

30:18

The show saw a huge jump among Black audiences,

30:21

but overall they'd lost about a million viewers,

30:24

a 17% drop. Jazzy

30:27

says the attitude after that seemed to be, well,

30:29

we tried diversity, didn't work out for

30:31

us, so let's get back to what's been working,

30:34

what makes us money. This was

30:36

pretty typical of the Bachelor franchise. Like

30:39

in 2012, two Black men sued ABC

30:41

for discrimination in casting after

30:43

unsuccessfully auditioning for the Bachelor. The

30:46

judge in the case ruled that casting is protected by

30:48

the First Amendment, so executives

30:50

basically have the right to discriminate when it comes to

30:52

picking who's on the show.

30:55

The next big season Jazzy worked on, cast

30:57

a white male lead, and so this

30:59

time Jazzy had to go out and find women,

31:02

and she tried to make sure they were diverse. So

31:05

a lot of the times I would bring in a Black

31:07

woman that would have just

31:10

braids, natural hair, whatever

31:12

the case is, and a lot of them were like, no.

31:15

They would just say outright no. She's

31:17

a no. No follow-up. Yeah,

31:21

and I was like, why? And they were

31:23

like, she's just a no. She doesn't have the Bachelor

31:25

look. But then when Jazzy would bring them

31:27

Black women with lighter skin

31:30

and straightened hair, you would

31:32

hear them in the office, oh, she's so beautiful. She's

31:35

great. And I was

31:37

like, what?

31:39

And of course, this felt unjust, but

31:41

it also felt really personal. Like

31:43

as a Black woman with

31:45

darker skin tone, that feels horrible.

31:48

Yeah, of course. To

31:50

listen to that, constantly hearing

31:52

no, no, no, no, no.

31:54

That's when my mental health started to go down,

31:57

because I was like, this is not

31:59

great. to be around, to

32:02

constantly hear that someone

32:04

that looks like you isn't pretty and

32:06

not

32:07

deserving of finding love on a reality

32:10

show. It was horrible

32:12

to listen to that all day, every day. Did

32:15

you ever find yourself crying

32:18

at work or just having

32:20

moments to yourself? Oh yeah,

32:22

I was in bathrooms crying. That

32:25

was kind of my that was my escape.

32:29

As Jazzy became disheartened, she also

32:31

started pushing back more. I

32:33

was asking a lot more why's

32:35

rather than just accepting the nose.

32:38

So

32:40

you know I was like well why is this

32:42

person not right? Is it their hair?

32:44

Is it their body? And I think

32:47

a lot of that I

32:48

think upset them. They didn't like being disrupted.

32:51

In the racism she was

32:53

experiencing began to be more explicit.

32:56

Like one day at work she told me she was wearing

32:58

an African headscarf and when

33:00

her superior saw it she said,

33:02

oh my god I love your headdress

33:05

I want to wear that as my next Halloween

33:07

costume. Oh my god. And

33:10

then she pulled

33:12

up a photo of herself dressed

33:15

in a full Indian headdress

33:18

and sorry and

33:21

said look I wore this for Halloween

33:23

last year. Oh my

33:26

god. And that

33:28

was the moment I said I need to get

33:30

out of here.

33:35

After five seasons with the franchise Jazzy

33:38

started making plans to leave. She'd

33:40

stayed for as long as she had because she thought it'd help

33:42

her get to the next thing and because the pay

33:44

and insurance were good. But when

33:46

she started to ask around she realized even

33:49

those things she could have expected more.

33:51

She asked her colleagues what's a good rate for

33:53

a casting producer. And they told

33:56

me that I should be making closer

33:58

to eighteen hundred.

33:59

to $2,000. At that

34:02

time, they've given me one raise

34:05

and I was working at $1,600 a week. Oh,

34:08

so you realized that you'd been underpaid. I've

34:11

been underpaid for two and a half years

34:13

and had no idea.

34:16

We reached out to the Bachelor's Press team to confirm

34:18

these numbers, but they didn't get back to us in time.

34:21

When Jazzy found out, she went to go get some

34:23

air to feel the ocean breeze near the

34:26

LA office. Deep down inside,

34:28

I was a

34:30

rage of fire because not

34:33

only were they not treating me right there,

34:35

they were not treating the contestants right, they

34:37

were also underpaying

34:38

me and it's like the cherry

34:40

on top.

34:47

Jazzy quit and began freelancing and

34:49

managed to make more money that way.

34:51

Even though she'd moved on from the Bachelor, she couldn't

34:53

stop thinking about her experiences there.

34:56

Then in 2020, Jazzy

34:58

realized she could no longer stay quiet.

35:01

That's when The Bachelor made another historic

35:03

announcement. The show was going to cast

35:05

their first ever Black Bachelor, Matt

35:07

James. My name's Matt James.

35:10

I'm 28 years old and I'm The Bachelor.

35:12

I would have never thought that

35:15

this was in my cards. It

35:18

was June 2020 and Black Lives Matter

35:20

protests were happening all over the country. Jazzy

35:23

felt like The Bachelor producers weren't actually

35:25

interested in Matt as a person and truly

35:28

hearing his story.

35:29

I don't care how many times they say,

35:32

oh no, he was chosen because we wanted

35:34

him. He was chosen

35:36

because it was 2020, the

35:39

Black Lives Matter movement was happening and

35:42

they thought this would be a make good.

35:45

Obviously, I don't know that actually

35:47

for sure. That is not fact, but

35:50

I know deep down

35:52

in some closed room, that was

35:54

the conversation. Jazzy

35:57

was furious that now it was convenient.

35:59

Now it was trendy to have a black bachelor.

36:02

Knowing the inner workings of the show, she

36:04

was scared they would portray Matt in a stereotypical

36:07

way,

36:08

which she felt like happens a lot on reality shows.

36:10

And research confirms this. One study

36:12

we came across looked at 42 different

36:15

reality shows and found that black

36:17

people, women especially, were

36:18

disproportionately portrayed as verbally

36:21

aggressive.

36:23

Meanwhile, Jazzy's fears about Matt

36:25

came true.

36:26

Producers ended up playing into a common trope

36:28

and crafted a big storyline around his absent

36:31

father,

36:32

which Matt said was hard to watch.

36:34

It makes you wonder if the producers would think

36:37

to do that if it was a white bachelor. Probably

36:40

not. Probably not.

36:44

But before filming even happened, Jazzy,

36:46

feeling fed up with the bachelor franchise, sat

36:49

down at her computer one day and started

36:50

typing. So I wrote this

36:53

letter. Purely half

36:55

of it was frustration. And then the other

36:57

half was concern. But

37:00

I didn't think anyone would care about

37:02

it.

37:05

She started the open letter by introducing herself,

37:08

how she used to be the only black person in the bachelor's

37:10

casting office, and how disappointed she

37:12

was when the show returned to status

37:14

quo after Rachel's season. She

37:16

wrote to the bachelor staff, your show

37:18

has been whitewashed for decades inside

37:21

out. Your head of post-production is

37:23

white. Your casting director is white.

37:26

Your executive in charge is white. You

37:28

only cast the token black person,

37:31

Asian person, or Latinx

37:33

person to satisfy what

37:36

you believe to be the needs of the viewers.

37:38

She called on the show to select a more diverse cast

37:41

and production team, one that actually reflects

37:43

the country. No one in her industry

37:45

had talked about this openly before. So

37:47

understandably,

37:47

Jazzy was spooked. She'd ruffle

37:49

some feathers and lose work. Still,

37:52

she decided one night to post the letter onto

37:54

her Instagram page. And

37:57

I remember 24 hours after I...

37:59

posted it. I got so many emails

38:02

and DMs and all of this stuff

38:04

and a lot of it was very positive

38:07

feedback.

38:08

There were a couple of trolls in her inbox, which

38:11

is a given, but many more people who were excited

38:13

to see someone speak out against the show. And

38:16

to her surprise, instead of being alienated

38:18

from the industry, she found herself suddenly

38:20

in demand. I got to go

38:22

into some meetings and spoke

38:25

with a lot of production companies that wanted to do better,

38:28

which was actually really interesting to

38:30

like, be like, we read your

38:32

story. We understand where you're

38:34

coming from. How do we actually

38:36

implement this? What do we need to do

38:38

to move forward? Executive

38:41

producers from The Bachelor and even the president

38:43

of entertainment at ABC responded to

38:45

her letter with public statements, basically

38:48

saying, yes, we know we have a responsibility

38:51

that our show is representative of the world we

38:53

live in.

38:53

This is just the beginning. We're taking positive

38:56

steps and we'll do better. Since

38:58

then, I should say the show has cast a few

39:00

bachelorettes who are black.

39:07

Lately, Jazzy has been reconsidering not

39:09

just diversity within reality TV, but

39:11

the whole genre. Like, what does it

39:13

mean to turn someone into a star?

39:16

It was like a lot cloudier than I thought

39:18

it was because I thought

39:20

this I was making their lives better

39:23

when in fact I was actually making

39:25

it worse by putting them on the show. It

39:27

sounds like you had regrets

39:30

in some ways. I had some

39:32

regrets, especially one individual that

39:34

told me that she was suicidal after the show.

39:36

Because

39:38

she was someone I really pushed for to get

39:40

on that show. Jazzy started

39:42

to understand how competing with a bunch of women

39:44

in front of a massive audience can take a

39:46

real toll on your mental health. You're

39:49

constantly comparing yourself to other women on

39:51

the show. A lot

39:53

of these people quit their jobs to get on TV.

39:56

They don't get paid for it.

39:59

spend thousands of dollars on fancy

40:02

gowns and heels, even when they

40:04

might have to go home after just one episode. I've

40:07

also read accounts of women cashing out their retirement

40:09

savings or going into serious credit card debt

40:11

just to be on the show. So a lot

40:13

of them have this,

40:16

like, hope that this is going to work

40:18

out for them, and then a lot of them it doesn't. So

40:21

they come home to nothing.

40:26

Nothing except for a flood

40:28

of critiques. No big career,

40:31

no soulmate.

40:35

While working on this episode, I kept thinking of

40:37

this book I read by Danielle Lindemann, a

40:40

sociologist who studies reality TV. Her

40:43

book is called True Story, What Reality TV

40:45

Says About Us. She wrote

40:47

about how we should think of this genre as

40:49

a funhouse mirror. It

40:51

reflects our day-to-day experiences in

40:53

a really dramatic form, which

40:55

means it also amplifies real-life dynamics

40:58

we're not always eager to acknowledge,

41:00

like our racism, sexism,

41:01

classism, just to name a few.

41:04

Basically, it can show us who and what

41:07

we value, who gets to be seen, and

41:09

who doesn't. And by picking

41:11

apart the contestants by debating their storylines,

41:14

we're deciding together whether someone's actions

41:17

are acceptable, if their decisions are right

41:19

or wrong. And that can teach us

41:21

something, by analyzing human behavior

41:23

and hypothesizing what we might do in certain

41:26

situations.

41:27

But it's clear that comes at the cost

41:30

of participants.

41:31

When you sign up to be a character on a dating show,

41:34

that's exactly what you're doing. You're

41:36

going to be a character, a two-dimensional

41:38

person people can either identify with or

41:40

hate.

41:41

And when the cameras stop rolling, you're

41:44

left to pick up the pieces on your own. But

41:47

because production is relatively cheap

41:49

and humans will forever like to indulge

41:52

in other people's problems, networks

41:54

will keep using tried-and-true formulas

41:56

to keep us hooked. Meanwhile,

41:58

many contestants will...

41:59

leave these shows still single or

42:02

in relationships they formed under extreme pressure,

42:05

with less money, more fame, and

42:07

in desperate need of some therapy.

42:32

Alright, that is all for our show this week. As

42:35

always, if you have any thoughts or just want

42:37

to shoot us a note or share your own story,

42:39

you can reach me and the team at uncomfortable at

42:41

marketplace.org. Also,

42:44

be sure to sign up for our newsletter if you haven't already.

42:46

I usually write about what's on my mind and you

42:48

hear what the rest of the team is listening to and

42:50

watching and reading. You can sign

42:52

up for that at marketplace.org

42:55

slash comfort.

43:01

This episode was lead produced by me, Hannah

43:03

Harris Green, and hosted by Rima Reiss.

43:06

We reported and wrote the episode together. We

43:09

got additional support from Alice Wilder,

43:11

Yvonne Marquez, and Markei Green. Zoe

43:14

Saunders is our senior producer. Our

43:17

editor is Jasmine Romero. Our

43:19

intern is H. Conley. Sound

43:21

design and audio engineering by Drew Jostad.

43:24

Bridget Bodner is Marketplaces director of podcasts.

43:27

Francesca Levy is the executive director

43:30

of Digital. Neil Scarborough

43:32

is the general manager and vice president of

43:34

Marketplace. And our theme music

43:36

is by Wonder Woman.