0:00

Book

0:29

Crying aside, his beloved

0:31

wife Eileen remembered, Sean was

0:33

never extravagant. Indeed,

0:35

there was a certain public image of Sean

0:37

O'Casey and it wasn't an extravagant

0:40

man. Instead it was, to quote

0:42

one who encountered him, the aran sweater,

0:44

the on-lit pipe tucked in the corner

0:47

of the broad and firm mouth, the

0:49

tic-lens glasses perched bravely

0:51

on the bridge of a notable nose, the

0:54

skullcap with a few wisps of white hair

0:56

escaping from under it. Now,

0:59

Sean O'Casey is back on the stage

1:01

in Dublin, back on the stage of a theatre with

1:04

which he had an incredibly

1:05

complex relationship, a

1:07

theatre which first championed him, indeed

1:10

his first great champion,

1:11

but which later turned away and

1:14

as we'll hear today, he felt many in Dublin

1:16

turned away. If a theatre isn't

1:19

relevant in the lives of people, it

1:21

fades away of course. And in the

1:23

1960s, a reviewer of

1:25

an Abbey Theatre production that was touring

1:28

London felt that, whatever its past

1:30

glories, the Abbey is now no

1:32

more than an indifferently talented provincial

1:35

theatre. Ouch. The

1:37

Abbey it was maintained is a pale carbon

1:40

of what it once was.

1:42

But in recent times, there is great excitement

1:45

around the Abbey Theatre again. It has seemingly

1:48

rediscovered all the ingredients that

1:50

make a theatre good. It's democratic.

1:52

In recent times, you may have seen its

1:55

free first previews inviting the public

1:57

in, regardless of ability to pay,

1:59

to

1:59

enjoy the theatre. It's

2:02

an open book, you know, during the week you

2:04

can sit amongst all props in the Foyer

2:07

Cafe.

2:07

It's supporting new talent and new

2:10

ideas and building new bridges.

2:12

That recent production of translations with

2:14

a touring Ukrainian cast

2:17

was an example of that kind of initiative. But

2:19

it also understands something really crucial, you

2:22

know. A theatre

2:24

has to move forward to push on,

2:27

it has to be new, vibrant, fresh,

2:29

but also isn't the crime to look back, you know, or

2:31

to engage with what came before.

2:34

It's the balance, isn't it? And what came

2:36

before is not some kind of relic to be performed

2:38

in the same way by the same faces every

2:41

couple of years. You know, you can play with

2:43

it, you can have fun with it. And now from

2:45

the canon of the Abbey Theatre comes O.K.C.

2:48

in a new way.

2:49

What Gary Hines and Druid are doing,

2:51

bringing the O.K.C. trilogy on tour,

2:54

is one of the last great contributions

2:57

there will be to this decade of centenaries

3:00

winding down now. And it's powerful

3:02

to see it in the Abbey, of course, even if the original

3:04

Abbey is no more. This is the size where

3:07

O.K.C. made his name. But it's also

3:09

powerful if he got a chance to see it around the country.

3:11

I mean, I noticed a great tweet from John Foyle,

3:13

hopefully listening in, he's seen it in Belfast.

3:16

He made the point, you know, it made something else

3:18

there.

3:19

In a place where the

3:21

kind of conflicts in O.K.C.'s work,

3:23

political and personal, they were happening in far

3:25

more recent times. But to see

3:27

the Dublin trilogy in The Shadow of a Gun Man,

3:30

Juno and the Paycock and The Plow in the Stars,

3:33

on one day, whether you do it in Galway,

3:35

Belfast or Dublin, is something

3:37

really special.

3:38

O.M. Fox, a historian who would write

3:40

a lot of very important stuff on

3:42

the Irish Revolution, first met Sean

3:45

O.K.C. in Dublin in the early 1920s, before

3:48

any of these plays had come to the

3:50

stage. And O.K.C. seemed

3:53

perplexed by him. Fox

3:55

was a

3:56

young middle class student from Oxford

3:58

University who had arrived

3:59

a city like Dublin. And Sean said, I've

4:02

known scores of people who left Dublin

4:04

to write, but I've never known anyone coming here

4:06

for that purpose. But in case he was

4:09

in the right place at the right time, to capture

4:11

Dublin better than anyone. Dublin

4:14

in revolutionary and post-revolutionary

4:16

times. And later on happy

4:18

with the new order, he would leave it

4:20

behind him.

4:21

This story today passes through remarkable

4:24

names.

4:25

And I put two in the title for a reason. You know, one you'd

4:27

expect like Jim Larkin and,

4:29

you know, others like Alfred Hitchcock may

4:32

be more surprising. But congratulations

4:34

to Druid on taking the initiative to

4:36

ensure that O'Casey's voice would be heard

4:39

amidst the dying embers of the decade

4:41

of St. Henry's. My friends, last

4:43

week was a real honour to talk to Donal Lunney, he

4:45

of Planckstein, Moving Hearts, the body

4:48

band Emmett's, by Sláinte could go on and on, add

4:50

another love story. I'm awaiting

4:53

the sound desk recording of that. So I wrote

4:55

one and wrote the questions and did it. We're

4:57

just waiting to get us. So yeah,

5:00

that was to come ahead of Sean O'Casey, but

5:02

we'll flip them around. What a beautiful

5:03

festival. If you've never been down

5:05

there before and that I love story, you'll put it

5:07

on your radar. Really, really nice. If you're going

5:09

to the Electric Picnic, far bigger beast, I'm

5:12

talking to the great Jim Fitzpatrick, artist,

5:15

the Tin Lizzie and much more besides on

5:17

the Sunday in the minefield arena. It'd

5:20

be great to see you there, the boys are back in

5:22

town.

5:27

This is

5:32

Dublin, capital of Ireland and

5:36

centre of the Irish

5:38

spirit. For Ireland is

5:41

a nation of

5:42

heroes

5:49

and here in Dublin, heroes are born,

5:51

not made. Indeed, not

5:53

all of Ireland's heroes were men of the sort,

5:56

for Ireland had no greater hero, no

5:59

bolder champion.

5:59

of the people, and the famed writer,

6:02

Sean O'Casey. With words

6:04

as sharp as any sort, he lashed

6:07

out against tyranny." That clip

6:09

from a promo for a film about the life of Sean

6:12

O'Casey captures something of

6:14

the place of O'Casey, a world-famous

6:17

Irish writer. In the literary thinking

6:19

of the 1960s when it was made, there's

6:21

a lot of truth in that clip, but O'Casey

6:23

would certainly have scorned the word hero.

6:26

And I've always loved his observation in

6:28

a controversial interview three decades

6:29

before what we just heard, that I don't want

6:32

to go dreaming in any utopian land.

6:35

But

6:35

I do want to walk in the region of common sense.

6:37

We can't have perfection yet, but we can have

6:40

a little better than we are.

6:42

Not the language of one with such romantic

6:44

ideas of heroism.

6:46

But the journey that culminated in such adventures

6:48

on the big screen,

6:50

as we've just heard, had begun some four

6:52

decades earlier, in the 1920s. In a

6:55

time when, ironically, the cinema

6:57

faced its own threat. Dublin in civil

6:59

war times was an abnormal city.

7:01

At first, Dublin was the centre of the fighting,

7:04

but when the Four Courts was lost and the Battle

7:07

of Dublin came to a definitive conclusion

7:09

for the new state, focus shifted

7:11

elsewhere in the country. That doesn't mean that

7:13

there was normality in Dublin far from it. Young

7:16

Republicans, as we examined on this

7:18

podcast before in an episode with John

7:20

Dornay, were disappearing off the

7:22

streets. And on the other hand, the Republican

7:25

forces were trying with very little success

7:27

to impose their own order over the

7:29

civilian population.

7:31

There was a ban on public amusements,

7:34

threatening cinemas, theaters,

7:37

sporting venues and others who opened to

7:39

the public. And despite a few minds

7:42

and the occasional shot fired and anger, many

7:44

people overlooked the ban, went to the

7:46

cinema, went to the theater, went to watch

7:49

the boxing match.

7:50

In April 1923, Lady Gregory, one

7:53

of the guiding lights and founders of the Abbey

7:55

Theater,

7:56

writes about that moment and captures a peculiar

7:59

time in our diary.

8:02

15th April 1923.

8:04

At the Abbey I found an armed guard.

8:07

There had been one ever since the theatres were threatened

8:09

if we kept open.

8:10

And in the green room I found one of them giving

8:13

finishing touches to the costume of Tony Quinn,

8:15

who was a black and tan on the play, and

8:18

showing him how to hold his revolver. The

8:20

shadow of a gunman was an immense success,

8:22

beautifully acted, and all the political

8:25

points taken up with delight but a big

8:27

audience. Oh Casey, the playwright

8:30

had arrived. Casey,

8:32

Yates would write, was bad in writing

8:35

of the vices of the rich, which he knows nothing

8:37

about, but he thoroughly understands the

8:39

vices of the poor.

8:40

But Lady Gregory was adamant, this is

8:43

one of the evenings at the Abbey that makes

8:45

me glad to have been born. Channel Casey was

8:47

born in March 1880, or rather,

8:49

John Casey

8:50

was born.

8:51

And in some ways it was a birth like any other.

8:53

He would write that, in Dublin, sometime

8:56

in the early 80s, on the last day of the month

8:58

of March, a mother and childpane

9:00

clenched her teeth, dug her knees into

9:03

the pit, sweated and panted and

9:05

grunted, became a tense living mass of

9:08

agony and effort, groaned and pressed

9:10

and groaned and pressed and pressed a little boy

9:12

out of her womb. What was perhaps different about

9:14

this child, from many other protagonists

9:17

of the Irish Revolution,

9:18

was that he would be baptised in a Protestant church

9:22

and raised in a household that in many ways

9:24

reflected that.

9:26

In what they read, in cultural influences,

9:29

young John Casey grew up around English

9:31

novels. He recalled Dickens,

9:34

Shakespeare, Keats.

9:36

And the younger Casey was sent, or the young Casey,

9:38

I should say, was sent to the Central

9:40

Model School in Marlborough Street,

9:43

fee paying, where to quote his biographer,

9:45

Desmond Greaves, Protestant Unionism

9:47

was given a liberal veneer. It's

9:50

a really bizarrely Dublin thing to

9:52

talk oneself down

9:54

in the world. You know, most places you go,

9:56

people generally kind of talk themselves up in

9:59

the world.

9:59

Dublin has often been the opposite, and Christopher

10:02

Murray, great authority on Sean O'Casey,

10:04

writes that while ideologically O'Casey

10:06

always insisted that the family lived

10:08

in tenements and, inferently, in dire

10:11

poverty, the truth was that

10:13

the Casey's are probably better described otherwise.

10:15

One might say skilled working class or

10:18

lower middle class. They lived in rented

10:20

accommodation and it isn't to deny that

10:22

they knew hardship. They did know hardship. It

10:25

wasn't a very comfortable life like many

10:27

people in the new townships had. It was still a

10:29

life between

10:29

the canals, but it was far from

10:32

the worst of tenement Dublin and whatever that

10:34

conjures up in your mind. But like another

10:36

great chronicler of Dublin, James Joyce, the family

10:38

moved around the lot. Wellington

10:41

Street, Dorset Street, several

10:43

times over, up and down, 23, 6,

10:47

85, later, Abercrombe Road. What we know

10:49

of young O'Casey comes primarily from his

10:51

own autobiographical sketches. He

10:54

writes in the third person, so we get great insights

10:56

into young John Casey

10:58

and the Dublin of his time. The excitement

11:00

of the Boer War. It was a big deal. This

11:03

war happening in far off South Africa in the

11:05

late 1890s really grabbed the attention

11:07

of young Ireland. The 1798 centenary.

11:10

That was a really curious thing for a young

11:12

Dublin broad. The involvement of people

11:14

like Theobald Wolf Tone. He writes

11:17

beautifully in his memoir about talking

11:19

to his mother about Wolf Tone and Robert

11:21

Emmett and learning that they were Protestants. Royal

11:24

visits and fanfare, the occasional riot

11:26

in the street and the feeling

11:28

of slight udderness, you know, being a Protestant

11:31

family in inner city Dublin. But the Gaelic

11:33

revival swept him up

11:35

and John Casey became Sean

11:38

O'Kahasic.

11:39

He was a labourer with the railway company and

11:41

he writes really brilliantly about how these different

11:44

worlds that he inhabited, they were in

11:46

some kind of tension. I love how

11:48

he writes about the dilemma of trying

11:50

to pull his fellow workers into the

11:53

Gaelic League.

11:54

What would the novelly suited white-coloured

11:57

respectable members of the refined Gaelic

11:59

League

11:59

branches of Dublin do, if they found

12:02

themselves in the company of these men. Toiling,

12:05

drinking, whoring, they lived everywhere

12:07

and anywhere they could find the ready-made lodging

12:09

or room. They didn't remember the glories

12:12

of Brian the Brave, that is Brian Barrou,

12:14

beyond him as an al-King of Ireland in God's

12:17

time, and they knew nothing and they cared

12:19

less. Their upper life was a hurried

12:21

farewell to the news of the world on Sunday

12:24

morning, and attached to what was called

12:26

Short Mass in the Pro-Cotidra.

12:28

The shortest mass set in the land and

12:30

then a slow parade to the various pubs

12:33

and a weary some-wait till the pubs unveiled themselves

12:36

by sliding the shutters up and let the

12:38

massive men crowd in for refreshment.

12:41

And yet Sean felt in his heart that these

12:43

men were all important in anything

12:45

to be done

12:46

for Ireland.

12:47

That's a great description of life, isn't it? Routine,

12:50

work, indifference to politics,

12:53

an obsession with it as well. The pub

12:55

getting in and out of mass as quickly as possible,

12:58

there long enough to seek salvation,

13:00

not long enough to miss the opening of the pub shutters.

13:03

And in that kind of observation of his fellow

13:05

man, labourers especially, you've

13:08

got one of the great features of Ocasi's

13:10

writing.

13:11

And if Brendan Behan was a sponge who

13:13

absorbed Dublin humour, Ocasi

13:16

instead, I suppose, observed

13:18

mannerisms, speech and

13:20

more.

13:22

He was humble about this ability later on.

13:25

But how I was inspired by

13:27

it, of course, is another thing. I

13:29

was interested in everything that happened

13:31

around me and I'm interested still

13:34

in

13:34

everything that happens around me. Although

13:38

I hadn't what I would

13:40

call keen sight that

13:43

normal people have, I

13:47

had a very keen sense

13:49

of observation and that gave me

13:51

keen sight for the little foibles

13:54

and little gestures and little eccentricities

13:56

of that individual and the other individual

13:59

that I never saw.

13:59

I never forgot once I saw them. And

14:02

I had a very cute ear, very

14:05

acute ear for any little phrase

14:07

that interested me. It

14:09

remained in my mind. I

14:13

usually added to it,

14:15

or I wove another completely

14:18

different phrase from it.

14:20

But these phrases that I heard and the

14:22

things that I saw

14:24

were recorded in my mind and

14:28

selected then.

14:30

Added to, or changed to

14:32

suit my own fanciful

14:34

idea of what this

14:37

character or that character might

14:39

say in the play. But

14:41

the Gaelic League, the Gaelic Revival,

14:44

all of that was very

14:45

exciting. You know, there were branches in

14:47

Working Men's Club. There was a significant

14:50

Protestant dimension in the Gaelic League as well,

14:52

not only in Dublin, but also in Belfast.

14:55

But ultimately Larkin's appeal

14:58

was more than the Gaelic League. And it

15:00

was Larkinism that caught O'Casey. I

15:02

love on the Jim Larkin statue today. Next time

15:05

you're walking down O'Connell Street, have a look on either side

15:07

of it. There are two literary quotes,

15:10

one from Patrick Cavanagh and one

15:12

from Sean O'Casey. He joined

15:14

the Irish Transport and General Workers'

15:17

Union. And from 1911, he was a

15:19

committed Larkinist.

15:21

Larkin just captivated

15:23

him like a preacher.

15:25

Trumpet tongued of resistance to wrong,

15:27

discontent with leering poverty and

15:30

defiance of any power strutting

15:32

out to stand in the way of the march forward.

15:35

Here was the word en masse, not

15:37

handed down from heaven, but handed up from

15:40

a man.

15:41

O'Casey's journey into Larkinism

15:43

is one well told. And he would,

15:45

in 1919, write a history

15:47

of the Irish Citizen Army that revealed a lot

15:49

about his own

15:51

journey. He had served as Secretary of Larkin's

15:54

Citizen Army. And he writes about that time just

15:56

so beautifully. Discontent had

15:59

lighted a blaze.

15:59

in campfire in Dublin.

16:02

The city was surging with a passion

16:04

full, daring and fiercely

16:06

expectant. A passion strange,

16:09

enjoyable, which it had never felt before

16:12

with such intensity and emotion. It

16:14

was felt unconsciously that this

16:16

struggle would be the Irish Armageddon between

16:18

capital

16:19

and labour.

16:20

But in 1919, when he was writing about that

16:22

time and the citizen army and everything

16:24

around it, he also struck a kind of

16:27

cautious note. The Irish Revolution was still

16:29

going on and he wondered if

16:31

Irish Labour, Irish Lachanism,

16:34

I'd say, or whatever else he wanted to call it,

16:36

would be able to find its own voice in the revolution

16:38

or would

16:39

it drown?

16:40

It appears certain, he wrote, that nationalism

16:43

has gained a great deal and lost a

16:45

little by its union with Labour in the insurrection

16:48

of Easter week and that Labour has lost

16:50

much and achieved something

16:52

by its avowal of the national aspirations

16:54

of the Irish nation. O'Casey felt

16:56

that these things couldn't be severed from each other. He

16:59

had ultimately left the Irish citizen army. He

17:01

grew uncomfortable, I think, in a number of things.

17:03

One, the blurring of the lines between

17:05

it and the broader revolutionary

17:07

movement. The presence of Constance Markovich,

17:10

who was a member of numerous different bodies,

17:13

simultaneously seemed to grade him as

17:15

well. What was the relationship between the

17:17

citizen army and the volunteers? Was

17:20

this little body going to allow itself to become

17:22

just an auxiliary to something bigger? And

17:24

when O'Casey walked away from

17:26

the citizen army in 1914, it changed

17:28

his life. Paula Gaetz, the great historian

17:30

of Irish Labour, puts it very beautifully. The

17:33

upshot of the faction fighting was that the

17:35

citizen army lost a clerk, but Ireland

17:37

gained a playwright.

17:39

In the most exciting times of the Irish

17:41

Revolution, O'Casey was living at 422 North

17:45

Circular Road, a house that is still

17:47

standing. And in recent times there have been calls

17:50

for the city or the state to acquire

17:52

that house, calls supported by, amongst

17:54

others, the actor Sabina Higgins

17:57

and President Michael D Higgins. it

18:00

as a ground-floor room in a run-down

18:02

Georgian house with fine windows

18:04

looking out onto a small front garden and

18:07

the busy road beyond. But this was where

18:09

O'Casey was to settle for the next four

18:11

years and where he was happily to write

18:14

the tree Dublin plays. When

18:16

a journalist from the Observer arrived

18:18

at the door of the house, O'Casey

18:20

told him, I was born in a tenement house. I

18:22

rode by people in tenement houses and

18:25

if the London production is a success, I'll

18:27

leave them forever. The Dublin trilogy began

18:29

with Shadow of a Gun Man set in Dublin in 1920.

18:32

No spoilers here by the way because

18:34

I know some of you are probably going to see these

18:37

plays so we won't say too much about

18:39

them and their content, just those

18:41

kind of core facts of when they're set. Juno

18:44

and the Peycock, which followed, is

18:47

set against the backdrop of the civil war

18:50

and significantly the Dublin trilogy is

18:52

not entirely chronological because the

18:54

last play and the most controversial is

18:57

The Plough and the Stars, performed

18:59

in 1926. It's actually set

19:01

against the backdrop of the Easter

19:04

Rising. The

19:05

plough was probably the most familiar of the

19:07

trilogy. Apologies for Annie leaving

19:09

her flashbacks and it was contentious

19:12

for a number of reasons.

19:14

Eileen, Sean's wife in time, was

19:17

then an actor who had just crossed paths with

19:19

the playwright she admired so much and

19:21

when she read the plough she found it to be quote

19:23

a blend of comedy and black tragedy even

19:25

more moving than Juno. But there were some people

19:28

in nationalist Ireland who took grave

19:30

offence with aspects of the plough

19:32

and the stars. The manner in which

19:35

the speeches of Patrick Henry

19:37

Pierce are evoked. The presence

19:40

of a prostitute on stage and of course

19:42

minutes walk from the Abbey Theatre, the monto

19:44

had just been closed down. Not only was there

19:46

a prostitute on stage she was casting

19:49

disparaging comments on the rising, you know,

19:51

describing it as you know a freedom not worth

19:53

winning in a raffle that the men were fighting for

19:55

and the public house as a centre for

19:58

political debate. But the play was

19:59

personal too. I mean its very name came

20:02

from the starry plough. I had been one

20:04

with Jim Larkin to welcome the flag

20:06

he remembered, to unfold it and

20:08

fix it to the staff, to expose

20:10

it like a sacrament to the citizen army members

20:13

who gave it a great cheer and from every point

20:15

of view the flag deserved one.

20:17

The plough in the stars itself was

20:20

a part of O'Casey's DNA.

20:22

When the plough takes to the stage in the Abbey

20:24

Theatre,

20:25

a coordinated campaign is waged

20:28

against it. O'Casey recalled angry

20:30

and abusive letters against the play shone

20:32

darkly from the Dublin papers. But

20:35

in the theatre there was agitation.

20:37

Well it is quite a story but it's

20:40

it's been recited so often that

20:42

it's a bit teleges now,

20:44

a twice told tale you know. Yes.

20:47

Fixing the dulier of a drowsy man,

20:50

that's what story about

20:52

the riots that took place in the theatre

20:54

and the production of the plough in the stars is.

20:58

It was just a violent

21:00

reaction on the part of the nationalist

21:02

that didn't like the critical nature of

21:04

the plough

21:05

and assaulted the stage and

21:07

attacked the actors.

21:10

The actors fought back and Yeats

21:12

came out and announced them all, said

21:15

they had misbehaved

21:18

themselves again and

21:21

finally called in the police because

21:23

there was no possibility of quelling

21:25

them. The stroms of a hundred

21:28

people, men

21:29

and women, trying

21:31

to get onto the stage and pulling the curtains

21:34

down and... Wreck!

21:36

And interestingly when you think about people shouting down

21:38

a play you probably have a certain image in

21:40

your head which is not unlike Father Ted,

21:42

you know down with this sort of thing. A Puritan.

21:45

But actually Frank Ryan, Sheila Humphreys,

21:47

Hannah Sheehy Skeffington and others, many

21:50

of these are from the left wing of Irish republicanism

21:53

and they were amongst those who engaged in this

21:55

kind of misguided disruption of O'Casey's

21:57

play and O'Casey would recall it on several

21:59

occasions in interviews. He didn't take it lying

22:02

down and in a response letter to

22:04

Hannah Sheehy Skeffington, I'll go on a

22:06

bit of a tangent here and say Hannah

22:08

Sheehy Skeffington's husband, Francis Sheehy

22:10

Skeffington, had lost his life. He'd been murdered during

22:13

the Easter Rising by an out-of-control

22:16

army officer. And Ocasi was a great admirer

22:18

of Francis Sheehy Skeffington. In fact, he wrote

22:21

about him very, very movingly as a

22:23

kind of martyr of the cause of Irish

22:25

labour. But I think Hannah Sheehy Skeffington, still

22:27

grieving the loss of her husband

22:29

a decade on, took very badly to

22:32

the play.

22:32

And when Ocasi was defending it,

22:35

he pondered, is it worth only presenting

22:37

heroic tales of a

22:39

heroic land? He wrote, the

22:42

people that go to football matches are

22:44

just as much a part of Ireland as those

22:46

who go to Bowdoin's Town. And it would be wise

22:48

for the Republican Party to recognise this fact.

22:51

Unless they are determined to make of Ireland a

22:53

terrible place of a land fit only for heroes

22:56

to live in. But what Ocasi did recall with

22:58

pride

22:59

was the defence of his play by William

23:01

Butler Yeats, by then winner of

23:03

the Nobel Prize for Literature. And when he was reflecting

23:05

on it in an interview with the actor Barry Fitzgerald,

23:09

a dear friend and in time an Academy Award

23:11

winner, I love the passion and how he talks

23:13

about Yeats defending his play. With

23:15

his always flashing and his bushy

23:18

hair waving like a bush that wasn't boring,

23:21

and

23:21

his hands extending over the yellowing

23:23

bellowing josters

23:26

that traded down the play, and

23:28

he's shouting out of them, you

23:31

have disgraced your soul again.

23:35

And then when the roaring became worse and

23:37

they shouted out against Ocasi,

23:39

he roared out at them with all the

23:42

venom and vehemence that was in the great

23:44

man, he shouted out at them, this

23:46

is Ocasi's upper teiosis. Probably

23:51

because he had some peculiar

23:53

belief in the magic of a world. Yeah,

23:56

it was an exception. I

23:58

wonder did those that were listening to whom Barry

24:01

understands what the meaning of

24:03

apotheosis was. Did

24:05

you? I'm

24:07

not answering that question. Did

24:10

you understand? Oh, of course I did. They didn't.

24:13

Well, neither did I. And I

24:15

was wondering all the way home, and it was

24:17

very late home when I left.

24:19

I was wondering all the way home. Well,

24:21

in the name of God was the meaning of apotheosis,

24:23

and what had happened to old Casey that

24:25

he had such an honor conferred on him. It

24:27

was only when I got home, and quietly

24:31

and secretly, you know, I left out the dictionary,

24:34

I discovered that old Casey was

24:36

translated up into the gods.

24:39

The plough has a beautiful emotion and

24:41

humanity. There's just so many moments in

24:43

it that you might remember. I mean, it

24:46

transforms one song here

24:48

and its meaning. When you and I were young, Maggie,

24:50

a 19th century song first recorded

24:53

in 1905, later synonymous

24:55

with John McCormack, as we'll hear now. In this

24:57

country, we don't call it when you and I were young, Maggie,

25:00

we call it Nora. Jack, a member

25:02

of the Citizen Army, sings it to his wife Nora

25:04

in the play.

25:24

Of the days of our God,

25:27

Maggie,

25:30

when you and

25:34

I were

25:37

young. And

25:42

the hostility to the plough and the stars certainly

25:45

got to old Casey. When he left

25:48

in 1926, these words appear in a newspaper

25:50

interview.

25:51

I like London and London

25:53

likes me. That's more than I can

25:55

say of Ireland. I have a good deal of courage,

25:57

but not much patience, and it takes both courage and courage.

25:59

patience to live in Ireland. The

26:02

Irish have no time for those that don't agree with their ideas,

26:05

and I have no time for those who don't agree with mine,

26:07

so we decided to compromise and I am

26:09

coming here. But this more broadly was

26:11

a really defining time.

26:13

The second half of the 1920s. And even if O'Casey

26:16

hit something of a brick wall with the theatrical

26:18

world in Dublin, and he took the rejection by

26:20

the Abbey of a latter work, the Silver Tassie

26:22

particularly badly, the great play set against

26:25

the backdrop of the First World War, what was

26:27

perhaps inevitable in the early days of talky

26:29

cinema was that the wit of O'Casey

26:32

would hold appeal to the emerging directors

26:34

of the day. O'Casey, in discussion

26:36

with the prior mentioned Barry Fitzgerald, he

26:38

kind of lamented how many of the great stars

26:41

of the Abbey stage were lost

26:43

to the world of cinema.

26:56

And

27:00

he made so many.

27:01

Sally Algood had it too, and so did Molly

27:03

O'Neill, and three great artists.

27:07

Now often since Cushba Theatre,

27:10

that drove such an artist as you were

27:12

out to seek a living in

27:14

another medium.

27:17

For you Barry, in my opinion,

27:20

and it's no little opinion either,

27:23

you Barry, were the greatest

27:27

comedian that ever

27:29

tried the English

27:31

stage. But the world of cinema loved

27:33

O'Casey, including a certain Alfred

27:36

Hitchcock.

27:37

And when interviewed in 1962 with

27:39

a translator present, which makes this a kind of

27:41

jarring listen, Hitchcock discussed

27:44

his 1930 adaptation of

27:46

Juno and the Pei-Cock.

27:48

And actually,

27:49

I think how Hitchcock felt about the experience

27:52

wasn't entirely unique for directors

27:54

of that age. I mean, they were often trying, sometimes

27:56

unsuccessfully, to bring the world

27:58

of theatre to the world of cinema.

27:59

cinema. Did you know

28:02

the pickup? That was me with

28:04

Irish players. I remember again by this time

28:12

I

28:15

was feeling the need

28:20

after the blackmail picture

28:22

that I should contribute

28:25

in terms of pure

28:28

motion picture form. Even

28:31

though it was talk. And

28:33

I remember having this Irish play

28:40

and going over it again and again seeing whether I could

28:43

retell it in a cinematic form. But

28:53

I couldn't do it. It was a play that took place

28:55

in one room.

28:58

I

29:08

was... it

29:14

made a... not as

29:17

from a creative standpoint. It

29:19

was a bad experience for me.

29:23

I

29:26

made the film. I used most

29:28

of the Irish players. My

29:36

own taste. I liked the

29:38

story and the play very much. It

29:41

contained a lot

29:43

of humor and tragedy

29:47

together.

29:49

And I photographed

29:53

it as much

29:55

imaginations I could put up. Not too much. The

30:00

film got tremendously

30:03

good notices. And

30:08

I was ashamed. Because

30:12

I hadn't contributed. They

30:16

were praising this film. I

30:21

felt I was a cheat. Yes,

30:23

that was IPS trucki neck. They're

30:29

praising the work of Jean O'K Argentine. astics

30:32

narrativesMODE But

30:36

it was actually, you felt that the compliments

30:38

were being, were old to Jean O'Kesi,

30:40

rather than to you. Oh,

30:43

naturally, because there was nothing,

30:45

I tried to do something with it.

30:47

But

30:49

I realised I had to stay with the play. I

30:52

saw the picture, he says, but I simply didn't understand it. But

30:55

I told him it would be interesting to have you

30:57

say a few words about Jean O'Kesi, because in this country,

30:59

of course, he's known.

31:00

And I thought, did you work with

31:03

him? Yes, he did a couple

31:05

of the director seasons for me. Well,

31:07

of course, because Jean O'Kesi was a very

31:09

good actress, very good at me. But

31:11

isn't that amazing to hear Hitchcock? What

31:13

an incredible director. Hitchcock, to my

31:16

mind, is psycho, and so many great works. But

31:18

Juno and the Peycock is more forgotten. Even

31:21

years later, it would remain Abbey actors

31:23

of old who lit up the cinema screen. For

31:25

example, the work of the great John Ford,

31:28

full of Abbey stars. Jean O'Kesi

31:30

continued to produce work, and the wounds

31:33

with the Abbey never quite healed. You

31:35

know, 1964,

31:37

in response to O'Kesi's claim that

31:39

the theatre had been deteriorating for years,

31:41

they replied,

31:43

The directors of the Abbey Theatre have

31:45

read with great interest, Mr. Jean O'Kesi's

31:47

announcement that they've been dead for years. They

31:50

would like to assure Mr. O'Kesi that,

31:52

as is the case of Mark Twain, the rumour

31:55

is greatly exaggerated. But

31:57

he knew good theatre when he saw it, and it wasn't that it was.

31:59

Casey was just lobbing eggs at

32:02

the Abbey Theatre from Britain. English Theatre,

32:04

he felt as well, was but a ghostly

32:06

memory too. Aside from Joan

32:09

Littlewood's Theatre Workshop in East London,

32:11

he called it a Cinderella without a fairy

32:14

God-O-Mother, a theatre that should

32:16

get what is given to the old Vic, for it

32:18

is adventurous as the other is timid

32:21

and tired

32:22

and lazy. And of course it was that theatre,

32:24

the Theatre Workshop, that championed

32:26

Brendan Behan, who Samuel Beckett would describe

32:29

in a letter as the new O. Casey. And

32:31

it was still opposition at home, though

32:33

the critics changed. In 1926 it

32:35

was the left of Irish republicanism

32:38

that was shouting down the plow in the stars in the

32:40

Abbey Theatre, but by the 1950s the

32:42

opponents were very different.

32:44

What is the background to the reason

32:47

that you won't allow your place to be put on in

32:49

Ireland now? Well,

32:51

it's... There

32:54

was a festival to be held in

32:56

Ireland in 1958 called

32:59

Dantostal. It's

33:02

an Irish

33:04

word meaning gathering together for

33:06

entertainment, you know,

33:08

tostal.

33:10

And I had written a

33:12

play at the time called The Drums of Father

33:14

Ned, and the chairman of the committee

33:17

of the council heard of it, and he asked

33:19

me would I send it to him for

33:22

consideration. And I said, well,

33:24

I was very reluctant to do so, but

33:26

after several hours I decided to

33:29

let him see it. I

33:31

sent him the script, it was in manuscript

33:33

at the time, sent him the script, and he

33:35

was delighted. It was just the play he wanted

33:38

to cap and crown the festival. That

33:42

was all right, I was grieving to me and

33:45

everything went on all right, until

33:47

a week before, a couple

33:49

of weeks before, the tostal

33:52

was to begin. And suddenly

33:54

the Roman Catholic

33:57

archbishop of Dublin,

33:59

public, He announced that

34:02

he wouldn't permit any priest in his diocese

34:04

to say a vote of mass for

34:08

the toast if any play

34:10

by O'Kazely or Joyce were

34:13

produced during the event,

34:15

during the festival. So

34:18

that started all the pious

34:22

people protesting,

34:26

all the religious assays who got up on their

34:28

behind legs and demanded that the play

34:31

be rejected and

34:33

Joyce's play that was going to be done

34:36

was to be thrown out.

34:38

And the committee took freight

34:41

and worked in such a way that I decided

34:43

to withdraw the play. And

34:47

because there was no protest made against

34:49

the archbishop's

34:51

ban, I decided

34:53

to ban all my plays in Ireland for

34:55

the future, professional performances,

34:58

and it's been banned ever since. I

35:02

think that Ireland should have, Dublin

35:04

at least, should have protested against the archbishop's

35:07

ban on a play,

35:09

a play

35:12

of a dramatist that was an Irishman. A

35:16

damn sight better Irishman than archbishop

35:18

because at least he knows the language of his

35:20

country which the archbishop doesn't not

35:24

only am I an Irishman but I'm a Dublin,

35:27

citizen of Dublin. The play was to be produced

35:29

in my own city.

35:32

I think it was an impudent and an uncalled

35:34

for thing for him to ban a play

35:37

written by me, one

35:39

of my best plays and

35:41

a play that was hopeful

35:43

and joyous and gay.

35:46

There was nothing in it at all that anybody

35:49

could object to. The

35:51

hero actually is

35:54

typical of the whole Catholic Church in

35:57

Ireland, Father Mayor. He's the dog

35:59

of the church. and spirit in the whole

36:01

play, urging the people

36:04

to tidy up

36:06

their towns, to paint their towns,

36:08

to bring music to their villages, to

36:10

bring art and literature

36:12

everywhere that few Irishmen are

36:14

gathered together. There can be nothing objectionable

36:17

in that idea, can there?

36:19

O'Casey died in September 1964, at the age

36:21

of 84.

36:23

And there's a new appreciation

36:25

for O'Casey now in the backdrop

36:28

of the decade of centenaries. I'm very much

36:30

of the opinion that the Irish Revolution was heroic,

36:33

but it was also human, you know? And

36:36

O'Casey champions humanity,

36:38

the so-called ordinary people

36:40

on the sidelines of these events. The

36:43

way he describes the working man

36:45

and the working woman against the backdrop of what

36:47

was playing out around them was

36:50

second to none. The characters can be brave

36:52

and bold and stupid and, as we are, you

36:54

know, they are people of Dublin caught

36:57

in a dramatic moment. Speaking at

36:59

an event to commemorate both James Joyce

37:02

and Sean O'Casey earlier this year, the president

37:04

said that Dublin and the lives

37:06

suffered and enjoyed in it was not just

37:08

a character source, as important

37:11

as any human character, but the crucial

37:13

context in both of these writers'

37:15

works. And I love that. You know, both of them left

37:18

Dublin physically

37:19

behind them, but the city remained within

37:21

them both.

37:23

So best of luck to Drude in telling

37:25

these great stories again. Hopefully

37:27

some of you will get along to the Abbey

37:30

Theatre to see it. And no rioting

37:32

in the aisles this time.

38:00

you