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Athletic The

1:44

first substitution coach the world has ever seen

1:46

and so today's episode is all about the

1:48

role of substitutes, how coaches can help prepare

1:50

them to come on in games and

1:53

the sort of upside that you should expect from

1:55

employing a substitution coach. Now, I'll be honest, I

1:57

was skeptical at first, but Sammy won't have a

1:59

chance. Well me around. so let's just head over

2:01

to that conversation now so you can make your

2:04

own minds of. Sammy

2:13

is great to have you here. Thank you

2:15

for coming and says to record when they

2:17

I'm delighted to be here for excited for

2:20

plus of situations. Yeah I'm very excited to

2:22

talk about substitutions because I just as I've

2:24

just said before, we start recording substitutions. Things

2:26

that people that really talk about that much

2:28

in football particular from a tactical point of

2:30

view. and you are the guy who you

2:32

are the guy he does substitution tactics right?

2:34

Yes that is may as well as he

2:36

has prison myself for hum the know. Yes,

2:38

an interest in Era think is very untouched.

2:40

I think that's why my role has come

2:42

about because as such. A space for it

2:44

to be developed and yo set piece countries

2:46

are now become the norm. you know I

2:48

know that these cookies and national legally to

2:50

So what's the next place where you can

2:52

again and authorities so uncomfortable Shorten conference Yes

2:54

that's where I have mostly slow and where

2:57

we're going to solve all about this stuff

2:59

as the episode goes on, Battery will be

3:01

good for our listeners to describe the senses

3:03

of how you ended up doing what you're

3:05

doing so as to socolow be about about

3:07

your background. So how did you end up

3:09

getting to the point he got see today

3:11

So I. Grew. Up wanting to in

3:13

the premier league and that's a display of the

3:15

a as any been any got about eight and

3:17

that's not change that silly and go go space

3:20

on the month medals gonna be when it when

3:22

I get it i'm but i have actually lost

3:24

the saw you my right eye when i was

3:26

that younger car crash so agrees with naturally pushes

3:28

your says good development and supple doesn't have the

3:30

back so at have a bit of a rain

3:32

check on that one and thought wow okay well

3:34

similar when it as a player they the food

3:37

is a coach who an analyst or something like

3:39

that so looked at different pathway that you might

3:41

be able to take in. An endless and

3:43

of looking at different ways to get

3:45

there was cool. So when's the coach

3:47

in the National is an and or.

3:50

When. It went up from there. really. In

3:52

terms of the the coaching, when did

3:54

you stop? Well aware, Adriana and you

3:56

start. So was Twenty Twenty One side

3:58

coaching for Weymouth who reads. Three of

4:00

the lonely system and of southern print am

4:02

had a really good season. one promotion when

4:04

international south on promotion again when strength National

4:07

League. So I was twenty three for seen

4:09

coach at National League which is crazy when

4:11

you think now and you think about him

4:13

reflect a little bit and were cut off

4:15

his Wrexham not counties you know hadith who

4:17

pulse and in all was in the opposite

4:19

dug out John Fong waster to be in.

4:21

So scary that that was my first break

4:23

into coaching from really really big moments and

4:25

own terms of the coaching pathway in terms

4:28

of the badges, the qualifications to do just.

4:30

Stop picking them up at that point. Yes

4:32

I'm ah. Johnny was little bit different in

4:34

the sense that I think my experience providing

4:36

caught lying with my qualifications and since I

4:38

was initially coach and do and why was

4:40

doing with single syllable to. Maybe

4:42

even a fit of a one thing cobbler to

4:45

that point. or maybe go through it because there

4:47

was such a disc. We get in on it

4:49

and we're going to convinced that it you know

4:51

pushes back a massive list of a you know

4:53

aspiring coaches wanted to get on it which is

4:55

understandable when I was just a small number in

4:58

that line. so I'm yeah it was and it

5:00

was tough and and like set probably that launches

5:02

into into Wimbledon and part of that deal was

5:04

to try and get me more you A for

5:06

the most part the package they've also gives me

5:09

in them again. that proves to be quite tough

5:11

because for whatever reason I'm sure. But so

5:13

and yeah it's very saturated i think list

5:15

at the moment from the coaching which is

5:17

a shame because there's so many good people

5:20

out there are meet the. Qualifications

5:22

are the others the barrier to hold them

5:24

back a little bit. So it's a shame

5:27

because that's their quality in their experiences deserving

5:29

of an opportunity. but maybe their their qualifications

5:31

on and up will be fought so into

5:33

that mode. I actually went with Down the

5:36

Welsh as A and and a Cosby kind

5:38

of for them that there. Are you pregnant

5:40

with me So Segovia base gonna be now?

5:42

yeah and and will include your I my

5:44

ah yes it has to ask a good

5:47

contacts. Let's go back to Weymouth. And because

5:49

you told a nice story on Macroscale Podcast

5:51

about a lightbulb moment. The had a Weymouth

5:53

in terms of substitutions and a not be

5:55

maybe every vinci yes house so always or

5:58

see a coach and and would go. Three

6:00

uncovered so we had to solo know to

6:02

play because we're effectively apart on seem really

6:04

in a full time lead and that the

6:06

progression on the pitch had been amazing. The

6:08

progression of the pitch hadn't quite cool up

6:10

with the success we were having. So you

6:12

know we said I'd volunteers you know I

6:14

was the kit man for a couple of

6:16

weeks because the kit man it wasn't You

6:18

know we'll go the not county a three

6:20

foot on Kidman and and we were a

6:22

little bit unbalanced and that so and as

6:24

part of the so of pots on carbon

6:26

futon league I target named as a player

6:28

so I'm I'm believe experience. May have really

6:30

recommend bit thought maybe this might be it's had

6:33

a few good performances and training and you know

6:35

when it suppresses shape always jump in and natural

6:37

things and and so yeah was Maidenhead I think

6:39

he was as a cop on the bench and

6:42

of will be sure on land a serene be

6:44

sure with chairman's run out to get me with

6:46

a bit of sammy what's in the game and

6:48

I'm soon be in because I'm a coach Sean

6:50

do him a row on seconds and jelly babies

6:53

and I'm you know who is November So many

6:55

big bench coach and eighty seven minutes try to

6:57

goes down and this luck across as well as

6:59

other. And I'm thinking. This

7:01

isn't your main effect acetone around him He says some

7:04

are you ready and I just thought. Voter

7:07

Id like this isn't a this is a moment

7:09

like assistant on the I'm not quite Ready so

7:11

that was that was the light bulb moment. Was

7:13

driving home and I have a homeless and ideas

7:15

book with which is. Six bucks

7:17

about first question where said where it had on the

7:20

to win the premier league and for me. A

7:22

come from a tiny town each Osprey, you

7:25

know, Dorset. Really rural hours. Or

7:27

more classes for club which is Boomers so

7:29

there's no lawful heritage around me. So how

7:31

do I break into a premier league and

7:33

assortment of the summit Different and ago these

7:35

ideas that just Europe for policing old to

7:37

be done. different owners that we don't better

7:39

you know. So the results over tradition mentalities

7:41

you will and and subs was just one

7:43

of the i was that moment like a

7:45

homebody in the book. Start a just thinking

7:47

about it and it's or snowballed into this

7:49

massive thing that that still I can't quite

7:51

believe where it's going today really and where

7:53

it can go in the heights. it's taken

7:55

me too. So yeah, That that that moment where

7:58

the guess a turnaround when you ready. So

8:00

now I'm nowhere near ready to go and

8:02

compete with Maidenhead success. Nurse Break is a

8:04

I guess he puts you in the shoes

8:07

of of plays and I'm position and and

8:09

I guess you've events or what what is

8:11

entailed by by being a substitute for them

8:13

and and and everything you dumb and since

8:15

then has missile sites from them I think

8:17

is massive because empathy is something that I

8:19

think you can always empathize with someone but

8:21

I think it's very difficult to truly understand

8:23

the emotions that so it comes with. It's

8:25

went when you're in a row and I

8:27

think that was my first moment where thought

8:29

came. Of that moved in forty five minutes on.

8:32

Keep going for five minutes to give me the

8:34

game is what role but that might be placed

8:36

on three four jelly babies in mean young and

8:38

ready to jump off and chase, race and change

8:41

the channel. So it's that real like you rename

8:43

your living at. You're immersed in it. And that

8:45

was the moment I thought wow this destiny something

8:47

Sisu, his yellow. A dozen people think about this

8:49

enough. really the the role of a substitute in

8:52

in the broader scope of of or for both

8:54

teams Kennedy are in. I've coaching experience and out

8:56

at a much lower level and Euro I would.

8:58

I was catching University women. Say when I was

9:01

there for five years and you know we went

9:03

to contact was we're a university team so and

9:05

we played in, in and in the in the

9:07

box leagues or we would travel. Long

9:09

distances to play against things with like in

9:11

Slough reference we were we were facing cameras

9:13

has been as our in up forty five

9:15

tries to to last brooks these of university

9:17

students who taking a chunk of time out

9:19

of their week to play football and you

9:21

have three available subs and you're taking three

9:24

subs and know one of them. Probably.

9:26

Using and apply. maybe we'll get like a minutes

9:28

attacking a whole day out to syllabus stand.

9:30

I'm upset books are the people play for the

9:32

on a bus and combat and it's about

9:34

was definitely to. I think the hardest part of

9:36

the job for me I mean this oversee

9:38

different when it when it when you know professional

9:41

contacts and is like you know people understand that

9:43

the game is about a is about winning

9:45

and you want the theory everyone has to do

9:47

that bits of the team to the for

9:49

me like when you're taking someone at out of

9:51

the you know okay I'll eat yeah I

9:54

am and then I even their to play football.

9:56

And you're not and and you're not putting them on

9:58

the field. It's like it's like a message. So

10:00

does that's the sort of emotions then the

10:02

that these players have to deal with as

10:05

substitutes and you're getting on a boss, you're

10:07

traveling a long distance or maybe even flying

10:09

and at the highest level again booze and

10:11

then you even getting on the pitch anyway

10:13

and it's a it's a really difficult psychological

10:16

point of view to touched me at it

10:18

to exist within sites and how much of

10:20

the aspects does do you think is important

10:22

to the the substitution coach or the that

10:25

the more psychological aspect successive I would argue

10:27

that's probably the biggest aspect of this concept

10:29

so it's. Design is constantly looks different parts

10:31

to it you know so have been set

10:34

out for with of minutes you know it's

10:36

a well gossipy a subs can get the

10:38

run and regular top speed in Omaha me

10:40

to be in pieces so you know the

10:42

that's one part of it but the other

10:45

paw and and probably the bigger paul is

10:47

This is this psychological stigma that comes attached

10:49

with this as he refuses won't have a

10:51

substitute is negative connotation that comes. It's like

10:53

a taboo word in football when you go

10:56

saw been he saw as or shadowy or

10:58

Iraq around it So gates been trying to

11:00

challenge that stigma cause when you go in

11:02

and say you the subs coach that was

11:04

comes with the interview the guy's gonna have

11:06

pity mean you know can be this have

11:09

limits of attention and so you have to

11:11

really challenge there and by think it's massive

11:13

are you can have a player who is

11:15

Freddie technically ready tactically in the best said

11:17

visible her nice but if they don't feel

11:20

loved and often confident than us understand in

11:22

a row that of clarity them I think

11:24

the you know that they're they're shadow of

11:26

the player. In. Their potential? That that

11:28

probably all. The in

11:30

as a starter as you first real big

11:33

step into the into the professional game was

11:35

with women so how did that come about?

11:37

What does it look like Yeah will become

11:39

as a unbelievable experience today you know probably

11:41

one of the best of ever ever had.

11:43

ready to do is that first step up

11:46

going to Futon football you know I was

11:48

twenty four of was only so proenza non

11:50

league football a little bit cells going into

11:52

this you know Sunderland, Portsmouth and nuts or

11:54

think it was an unbelievable experience so am

11:56

I chatted to. And he paused low. Who's a

11:58

set piece coach? The swans in

12:01

as he was thinking more of.

12:03

Gonna. Cancel. we'll see how gave me. This was

12:05

a Russell Martin and I'm yes there are not

12:07

a lot look down. I used to cool people

12:10

role models as they can sixty minutes he a

12:12

time know what what you do on a qualification

12:14

pathway. You know any advice for this or stuff

12:16

and then just at the end just before they

12:18

hung up ago. Subsidies competitive and and they were

12:21

go Yang the are gone and five minutes and

12:23

then some people were ready, supportive and receptive to

12:25

it. Others were little bit more resistant to him

12:27

which is metric football with a game of opinions

12:29

am an hour and he was one of these

12:32

people who are real interest in. It's sad

12:34

that. Mark. Robinson who was

12:36

the coach of the manager at Wimbledon might

12:38

be interested. We changed numbers and robin for

12:40

me and and I went in a pitch

12:42

to the whole sauce. Pretty. Much data

12:44

the I had analyzed or of

12:46

wimbledon. And and why

12:49

so areas we could influence was felt things

12:51

we can add to the process strategies with

12:53

this or stuff and damn it developed from

12:55

their managed to get for the chairman Ceo

12:57

that so single contract and with when with

13:00

yeah wimbledon for the use of of the

13:02

don't have. Had

13:04

Wimbledon. Now my local teams are not be

13:06

a few times as well. So yeah yeah,

13:08

Funny how long list of a yeah yeah

13:10

I'm. We. Do now

13:12

we are to be nice so now I

13:14

am consultancy am so after Wimbledon it's old

13:16

seemed the natural progression to turn into a

13:19

bit more the conservancy because there were seems

13:21

all across the world are interested in of

13:23

asleep in idolize here and dumb qualifications and

13:25

whatnot so I didn't want to lose her

13:27

son parts of the world just yet You

13:30

know and and live and work full time

13:32

some a lousy do the best about was

13:34

a thing I'm and and recently just accept

13:36

that role with a team in the Us

13:38

which is had of research and innovation some

13:41

a nice row. where effectively of doom did

13:43

with the some substitutions you know for

13:45

revolutionize the at process results of attrition

13:47

but just doing across the whole of their

13:49

food processor few who so you have

13:51

really even have a blank canvas hopefully bit

13:53

over the future a lot to think

13:55

so i'm at the moment it's a little

13:58

bit in between could you go because obviously

14:00

I've got a few sub bits over here and podcasts

14:02

and coaching and that sort of thing. So yeah, the

14:04

moment it's hybrid, which probably works out for the best.

14:07

Well, let's start talking about substitutions as

14:10

a concept because we've already talked about

14:12

everything that's involved with that. You have

14:14

the physical and the tactical aspects, but

14:17

also the psychological aspects. A

14:21

big, big question to start off with just in

14:23

general about coaching substitutes. What do you think are

14:25

the edges that can be found in coaching

14:28

substitutes? Because I think a lot of people just sort of

14:30

think, I hear a

14:32

lot of people complaining about their coaches'

14:34

substitution practices, but no one ever

14:36

really seems to talk about it in general. Fans are

14:39

like, oh, I thought their subs were bad, but no

14:41

one ever really seems to talk about what you can

14:43

do to do substitutions well. Can you influence it? Yeah,

14:45

yeah. And that's why I think we as coaches have

14:47

to take responsibility because you're right. Players come off and

14:49

you go, oh, it was awful today. The awful sub

14:51

didn't come on, didn't have the impact. And then it's just

14:54

like done, move on to next week. And I was just

14:56

like, why are we not coaching it? You know, if they,

14:58

if they had a really low XG per shot, we

15:00

wouldn't just say, ah, maybe next week, you know,

15:02

you would go and you go, I think this is the

15:04

wrong region you're shooting from, pitchography, all these sorts of things.

15:07

Whereas with subs, you're exactly right. People just go,

15:09

oh, it's what it is. There's an acceptance. And

15:12

I find it baffling that in today's world where, you

15:15

know, I don't know what it is in the Premier League nowadays, but what

15:17

are points worth, 2.7 million or goals worth

15:19

that. And you think for the sake of, you

15:22

know, employing someone or even assigning it onto

15:24

another coach to try and add that demand

15:27

to effectively what you get now

15:29

is five weapons per game, five

15:31

strategies, five tactics that you can add to

15:33

a game to go and elevate the results, see

15:35

the result out. So for me, yeah, I think

15:37

it's a crate. I think the teams at the

15:39

moment that are using subs well are definitely feeding

15:41

the benefits of it across the season because so

15:43

many games, how much has, you know, I think Virgil

15:46

van Dijk came out, was it yesterday and said another

15:48

1230 kickoff and you're going, this is where squad depth,

15:50

this is where rotation, this is where it's a team.

15:52

And, you know,

15:54

it's about exhausting every player in that

15:56

squad to make sure you can compete

15:58

on every competition. Do you think that

16:01

most clubs do substitutions badly then in terms of

16:03

the way that they approach it? I don't think

16:05

it's done badly because I think that means that

16:07

then they're consciously doing something wrong. I think there's

16:10

a lot of uneducation around substitutes. So I think

16:12

a lot of managers that I speak to do

16:14

it with a like a hope. They sub with a

16:16

hope, you know, it's one meal down. He's

16:19

six foot five, you know, chuck him on, might be able to

16:21

get across and he might he might pull someone out of the

16:23

bag. And I think that hope is

16:25

okay. It gives you a bit of a direction.

16:27

But but in a game today where there's so

16:29

much money and value in tiny tiny

16:31

margins, I think to to

16:33

now substitute with a process and a rationale

16:36

is far more constructive than to have this

16:38

like chuck him on see what he can

16:40

do. You know, most clubs don't have that

16:42

process rationale. I mean, I've been into

16:44

I've been I like to think I've

16:46

been into some of the most forward-thinking clubs and and they

16:48

have ideas already existing. But a

16:51

lot of what I bring tends to be

16:53

new to them, which tells me that if

16:55

probably the most forward-thinking clubs in the world

16:57

aren't quite at that space yet, then, you

16:59

know, maybe some of the ones that chasing the pack

17:01

on, I don't know the clubs that you're working with, the clubs

17:03

who are open to the idea that you could add value, right?

17:05

So there'll be a lot of clubs out there who simply wouldn't

17:07

even think in that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

17:09

yeah, yeah. They still see subs as it's part

17:11

of the game. And there's I was listening to

17:13

a podcast the other day about someone

17:16

who followed a manager for a year

17:18

and brilliant podcast. I remember

17:20

what's called if I find out link it later,

17:22

but you know, the behind the scenes podcast and

17:24

it was, you know, manager chats, you know, everything.

17:26

And one of the chats, one of the scenes

17:28

was in the office and he sat go and

17:30

you're going to be subbed. And so don't

17:33

worry, just put your feet up, relax. And I just thinking

17:35

like, what about if you tune you down at half time

17:37

and then you got to have to turn to this player

17:39

and say, well, now actually, you have to go win us

17:41

the game in a far more

17:43

challenging way that any start has had to do because you're coming

17:45

in at a negative. You're not coming in at an even. And

17:48

I still think those that exist, which I just

17:50

think is baffling like mad. Yeah, you

17:52

said before the margins are

17:54

so fine. You think that bringing on a completely different players

17:57

like one of the biggest things you can actually do to

17:59

the game. right yeah and and to

18:01

just sort of brush it off

18:03

yeah or to not have everyone on the bench

18:05

prepared and ready to know what they should be

18:07

doing and being you know psychologically and physically ready

18:09

to come on it seems like madness I

18:11

also think that a lot of

18:14

managers will think that if they've

18:16

got their preparation right then you might not need a

18:18

substitute so it's again it's not a case of just

18:20

you know don't do the subject a case of well

18:22

I think we've got our game prep right the trains

18:24

and brilliant I've picked the best squad so we're gonna

18:26

be too new not winning gonna need these lads you

18:28

know they might come on at 18 just see the

18:30

game out yeah that's what I'm saying if we prepare

18:32

our subs it means we don't believe in our game

18:34

exactly that yeah so you think there's that little sort

18:36

of balance between as well and I always say as

18:38

much as attention as you're given to a sub you're

18:40

then probably taken away from a starter which is why

18:42

it's important to have a role designated to those guys

18:44

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discover.com/credit card. So let's break,

20:13

we talked about psychological, physical and tactical aspects.

20:15

Let's just talk about some of those. We've

20:18

already mentioned the psychological aspects to a degree

20:20

in terms of how they exist,

20:22

why they exist, the way that players feel. And

20:24

that was the, I guess that was the thing

20:27

that really struck you at first, right? You felt

20:29

as though you weren't psychologically ready to come on

20:31

the field. How do you help players prepare for

20:33

that experience and being in the best place psychologically

20:35

to come on? I think it's a great question.

20:38

And I think this is probably the most valuable

20:40

question in this whole process really is

20:42

that you touched on it brilliant earlier with your

20:44

university team, you would go and like you said,

20:46

they were just giving up their day and that

20:48

was their identity. Their identity was playing minutes. And

20:51

then you said it might be a bit different

20:53

because it's their job. And I personally don't think

20:55

players view it any differently. I still think their

20:57

identity is playing. That's their, that's their, you

21:00

know, that's their goal. That's what they want to

21:02

achieve is to play the most minutes and score

21:04

the most goals have the most impact, you know,

21:06

clean sheets, whatever drives you. That's what

21:08

they want. So I don't think it's such that

21:10

they define themselves by, oh, don't worry, I'm getting

21:12

25k to be here. So that's all right. Like

21:14

I think they're still thinking I need minutes. I

21:17

need to be out there. I need to be

21:19

that. So it's about having them understand that they

21:21

can probably add value in other ways. So

21:23

we had a player when I was at Wimbledon, who

21:26

was a centre back and he was a substitute a

21:28

lot of time now that you suggest if you're a

21:30

centre back, your chances of getting on a pretty slim

21:32

and this is a red card or an injury or,

21:34

you know, you're going to a back five really. So his

21:37

role was challenging, you know, he sat there game

21:39

after game after game, watching those ahead

21:41

of him play minutes and get success and rewards

21:43

and that sort of thing. So we sat down

21:45

and he was just starting to go into that

21:48

struggle period where he was buoyant for the first

21:50

few games, but then it starts to drop a

21:52

little bit. And I said, how

21:54

about we find a way that you can add

21:56

value without being on the pitch. So, you know,

21:58

I give you a role. and

22:00

the role was that he was actually going to

22:02

warm up the wingers at half time. So every

22:04

time half time comes, I'll go do the forward

22:06

players, you know, strikers, cams, you go do the

22:08

wingers, you know, go 1v1s, let him drive at

22:11

you, that sort of thing. So Rick Morcom, wingers

22:13

driving at him, he's defending, he's defending, he's defending.

22:16

You know, he's doing different parts of the pitch,

22:18

he's doing different 1v1s, and about 25 minutes later,

22:22

70th minute, we make a sub, and winger comes on,

22:24

and he performs the exact movement in the exact part

22:26

of the pitch, the exact skill that he was practising

22:28

against his centre back, and wins the corner, and we

22:31

score from the corner. And it was, you know, we

22:33

filmed the half times, so I can reflect on it,

22:35

and we filmed the game. So I almost had this

22:37

half time warm up of this centre back warming up

22:39

the wide man, and then 25 minutes later, the exact

22:41

action being performed in that game. And I looked and

22:43

we sort of got to the end of the game,

22:46

and I said, that was turned out to be the

22:48

winning goal, and I said, that was your impact today.

22:50

Your impact was that you helped that winger be

22:52

ready to go and impact the game, to

22:54

win us the game. So you are worth

22:56

three points as much as everybody else. And

22:58

it's just about, I think, them understanding their

23:00

role, that isn't just playing. And

23:02

now I would always say, I don't want to glorify

23:04

substitutions too much, that a player's going, oh, I don't

23:07

want to start, and all the people who tell me

23:09

today, and, you know, play half time, and that sort

23:11

of stuff. So it's just about

23:13

when a player is in that process

23:15

of a substitute, how do you just

23:17

realign them so that they

23:19

can see they are adding value in

23:22

their process? And it's easy to talk

23:24

about the negative aspects of psychology, because, as

23:26

you say, we've talked about all of the

23:28

taboo there is around being a substitute. But

23:31

there's, I guess, a positive aspect

23:33

to psychology as well, or at least in the

23:35

sense that you've got a lot of players who

23:37

are going to come on and want to make a difference. And

23:40

sometimes, you know, we talk about players

23:42

not wanting it enough, but players can want it

23:44

too much as well, right? How do you

23:47

make it so that your substitutes come on, and

23:49

they're not going to try, over-try things and do

23:52

too much? That must be an element to what

23:54

you do as well. Yeah, massively, yeah. Because, again,

23:56

you say you've got to come on

23:58

and make an impact. Well, if you say that to

24:00

a wing... you can bet your house they're going back

24:03

foot, chop in, drive, shoot, because they think if this

24:05

goes in I'll be a hero. Imagine the gaffer. And

24:08

you want to get in the team right? So you want to win your shirt. Yeah

24:11

and then when you say you've got to win your shirt.

24:13

So when you say that to a player, particularly you know

24:15

substitutes are fairly you know typically a little bit of a

24:17

younger age, you say 22 year old

24:20

you know go win your shirt, that to

24:22

them doesn't look like slotting into a mid

24:24

block and shuffling to make sure the opponent

24:26

plays around us. That to them is chase

24:28

chase chase, score score and all this sort of

24:30

thing. So again I think we'll touch

24:32

on it a bit later but we sort

24:34

of came up with these names that would

24:36

provide alignment between every everyone you know

24:38

because there were times where and I could see it

24:41

I could actually see it with 1-1 and the gaffer

24:43

there and he's got the player and I think it

24:45

was at Sunderland which is not a bad point steady

24:47

in the light away from home there in the playoffs

24:49

we're a little bit in the table so a great

24:51

point. Gaffer there going you know keep it

24:53

you know this is going to be a good point. Players there

24:55

I can see in his eyes he's thinking I'm gonna win the

24:57

game here I'm gonna go and win the game. Now when you

24:59

have those two massive sort of people one going

25:02

to win the game one wanting to see a

25:04

point out the alignment doesn't meet in the middle

25:06

so then the role that they go out and

25:08

carry on to that pitch is not what we

25:10

need and on this occasion we drew

25:12

1-1 so it was brilliant but but there are plenty

25:14

of times where I think those those

25:17

desires of players don't align with what

25:20

the staff need the fans want you know there's

25:23

all these different voices and so if you look

25:25

at someone a closer that's it you say

25:27

you're the closer with one one go see this

25:29

game up it's as simple as that and

25:31

I think we came up with I think 12

25:34

names 13 names all these different name and

25:36

energizer was another go and lift us go be

25:38

legs go be fresh legs momentum match winner

25:40

that means go and win us the game energizer

25:43

finna all these sort of different names so

25:45

the more alignment you can give a player the more direction

25:47

I'm all for player autonomy but you have to give them

25:49

I think a little bit to then let them find

25:52

their way. So now we're

25:54

talking about tactical solutions to psychological

25:56

problems. Talk to us about some

25:58

of those different roles and and

26:00

how you not only decide what those roles

26:02

are, but how you then instill those ideas to

26:04

the players. Is it just a case of

26:06

talking about them that is important or are

26:08

you doing stuff on the pitch to actually work

26:10

and say, okay, this is what we expect

26:12

from you, go into this game

26:14

and play in this way? Yeah, it's a little bit of

26:17

everything really. Like I say, I'm a coach at heart, so

26:19

I love the grass, I love being on

26:21

and thinking of sessions in different ways and things

26:23

that we can implement to help these players. I

26:26

think I'm a good analyst as well, so it's

26:28

about pairing it all together really to create a

26:30

package. So let's say we'll

26:32

go closer, which I took from some research

26:34

in basketball. Typically finisher

26:37

is the word at the moment, isn't it, that gets

26:39

thrown around as the alternative name to a

26:41

substitute, which I think is brilliant. But

26:44

I think that now that's starting to gauge the same negative

26:47

connotations as a substitute. I

26:49

think finisher is just now effectively another word

26:51

that's in a player's vocabulary. So now it's about

26:53

adding the next layer, the next generation of players

26:55

that are now going to be, what type of

26:57

finisher are you going to be? Are you going

26:59

to be a closer? Are you going to be

27:01

a match winner? Are you going to be a

27:03

decider, an invigorator, an impactor? All these different words.

27:06

And so let's say closer, we

27:09

have done our work, so we'll have anticipated what the

27:11

opposition are going to look like if they go one

27:14

up, two up, three up, 10 men, 11

27:16

men, all the different scenarios that our

27:18

substitute might face. It's then

27:20

about putting that either in an analysis package

27:23

for them to understand or into a session

27:25

that they can understand. So as

27:28

a closer, let's say, you know, we're

27:30

two near up, we've got to see the game out.

27:32

Maybe the subs will stay a little bit extra at

27:34

the end of training session on a Friday and we'll

27:36

work through some out of possession stuff, you know, just

27:38

so that when they go on, you've

27:41

planted a little bit of muscle memory, a little

27:43

bit of direction for them thinking, well, this is

27:45

the picture of our face tomorrow. This is the

27:47

solution to our goal. So would you talk in

27:49

those moments about the closer, like men,

27:52

so you say, right, this is what we're going to

27:54

do. You look like we're closest. Yeah, right. And we

27:56

used to have a little poster as well. So just

27:58

before, um, didn't happen. Wimbledon it

28:00

was more pre-game that we would have this sort of

28:02

poster stuck up but since then in the consultancy role

28:04

have the poster actually with me in the dugout and

28:07

you'll be you know Gaffa will turn around and we'll

28:09

have our conversations and communication but player might come to

28:11

me and he'll say you know what sort of finish

28:13

am I and it would just be as simple

28:15

as you know you're gonna be a gonna be an impactor

28:17

today so and that alignment then

28:20

is between me manager, staff, fans, player, everyone's

28:22

now got to go impact. So you have

28:24

like general sense of what is required for

28:26

each of these roles but also in your

28:28

match prep you're baking those ideas in so

28:30

that they've got it in their head yeah

28:32

this is the role I have to might

28:35

have to play if I come on. And I would

28:37

say it takes a little bit longer to implement because

28:39

you know substitutes role effectively gets updated minute by minute

28:41

you know if the goal goes in

28:43

you know that can massively change what we're

28:45

expecting from this player so let's say we anticipated

28:48

to be closers but we actually found ourselves too

28:50

near down rather than too near up well these

28:52

guys aren't going to be closers anymore they're gonna

28:54

have to completely switch up and know what it

28:56

looks like to be an impactor, a match winner,

28:58

an energizer, an invigorator that sort of thing so

29:00

yeah it takes a little bit of time to

29:03

implement because there's a few different roles but after

29:05

I would say six seven weeks players very

29:08

natural to it which is nice. I've

29:10

got a follow-up question here which is maybe a little bit

29:12

more meta just about the importance of language in coaching because

29:15

it sounds as though what you're doing here is you're making

29:17

it very clear that you have a jargon

29:20

terminology that you use so

29:22

that all of the stuff that you're doing

29:24

on the pitch is also baked into one word

29:26

yeah but you can then say to a player

29:28

and then immediately all of the stuff that you've

29:30

been working on has been has been sort of

29:32

I guess that their memories of that stuff has

29:35

been unleashed right so yeah how presumably

29:37

like languages is super important massively

29:40

yeah I think communication you know

29:42

your ability to communicate something to

29:44

another individual is essential in any

29:46

role probably in any role

29:48

ever let alone football because when we're at

29:50

Stadium of Light and the left back is

29:53

on the other side of the pitch and

29:55

we've got 60,000 Geordie's shouting whoever they want

29:57

to shout at us then you know

29:59

I can't sit down and talk him through

30:01

the tactics board and say, oh, this is

30:03

what I think, I've got to say one

30:06

word that he can maybe visualize, see, have

30:08

passed onto him, that now goes, oh, that's

30:10

what Sami meant. You know, that's what the

30:12

gaffer meant. And Wimbledon were very good like

30:14

that. They had a whole terminology of different

30:16

parts of in possession, out possession that they

30:18

would say and players knew what that

30:20

meant, the definition of it, would it positive example,

30:22

negative example, and that sort of thing. And we

30:24

just brought that into the substitution concept. Yeah,

30:27

I guess with subs, you have like time constraints,

30:29

like you say, it's not just before

30:31

a game, you don't want to

30:33

complexify things and confuse your players.

30:36

But in the substitution moment, there's

30:38

also like a time element where you don't have time to

30:40

talk to them, right? So do you think that

30:43

that has meant that you've got things

30:45

that you can teach to the coaches in general

30:47

about communication because you're so used to having to

30:49

work in like a high pressure environment in

30:52

short time spans, right, in a way that other coaches

30:55

working across the board might not actually have to on

30:57

a day to day basis? Yeah, yeah, I think so.

30:59

Yeah, it's probably come through experience. Again,

31:01

I love other sports and taking lessons you

31:03

can from other sports. And I always use

31:05

when a substitute comes on as a Formula

31:07

One pit stop, where the car comes

31:09

in and it's just like, and

31:12

it's just bang straight out, quick as you like,

31:14

they've got all the necessary needs, they know, everyone

31:16

knows and you've gone. And I think a substitute

31:19

going to get ready could be of a similar

31:21

process where it goes, set piece coach,

31:23

subs coach, gel from the sports scientist, hit the

31:25

manager for last words on you go. And

31:28

you get that done in a minute, you know, you've got

31:30

to be conscious because of player information being receptive to,

31:32

you know, overstimulated. But if

31:34

you can get that process somewhat aligned, then you

31:37

can, yeah, you can really prepare that player to

31:39

go on. And people always say to

31:41

me, you know, set piece coaches love this question when they

31:43

go, how do you get subs to understand set piece roles?

31:45

And I say, well, how do you tell them? And they

31:47

say, yeah, when they're taking their shirt off. And

31:50

I think, well, then they're not engaged. They get

31:52

the ball out and they're like, yeah. I use

31:54

an example and into an international side of quite

31:56

a big game for this international side. And the

31:58

set piece coach was showing them. they were showing

32:00

him. He had a player taking the

32:02

jumper off, he was trying to do his shimpads, he had a

32:04

sports scientist like gel in his mouth and I

32:06

was just thinking there's no way that he is

32:09

receiving what you're telling him, you know, with the

32:11

most competency because no one would, it's not that

32:13

it's not like a football player, it's not that

32:15

player. I wouldn't be able to do it now

32:18

have this podcast if there was thousands of flashing

32:20

lights going on, I just couldn't engage. So it's

32:22

about trying to simplify the process and I think,

32:24

thinking back to you obviously the initial question, simplicity

32:27

is key because people just understand simplicity. You don't

32:29

have to be layer after layer after layer

32:31

in communication, maybe you're willing your prep and

32:33

your data and your collection but

32:36

when it comes to that one word point, simplicity

32:38

is key for me. Yeah, one of the things

32:40

that actually one of the Premier League set piece

32:43

coach friend of mine talks to me about is

32:45

like protecting the players from information. The

32:47

role of the coach is to have to deal

32:50

with all the information so that you can just

32:52

bring the stuff that they need to know so

32:54

that you're not overwhelming them. So it sounds like

32:56

you would agree with that but we've moved into

32:59

the tactical side of things, right? So I'm interested

33:01

to hear like the sort of conversations that you have

33:03

with a coach as a substitutions coach about

33:06

the sort of tactical aspect from the, rather than we've

33:08

talked about with the player what you say to the

33:11

player but what's the level of conversation that happens in

33:13

terms of deciding what subs to make, how much of

33:15

that happens on the bench, how much of that is

33:17

prepped ahead of time? I think

33:20

most of it now is prepped ahead of time, going

33:22

into Wimbledon, it was a little bit probably on the

33:24

day I would go into the gaffer in the morning

33:26

and me and Robbo would just go over any bits

33:29

that I thought was necessary for him to know whether

33:31

it'd been a player come and talk to me,

33:33

whether it'd been me finding a little bit of

33:35

a weakness from an in-game trend that I'd done

33:37

the night before or whatever. So that'd be opposition

33:39

based? Yeah, yeah exactly that. So finding them opposition

33:41

in-game trends that we could exploit or nullify, like

33:43

you said, a lot of, I think a lot

33:45

of opposition analysis is done on games

33:49

that are necessarily from start to finish whereas

33:51

I think what I've started to do

33:53

is looking at teams, what do they look like when

33:55

they win, draw away from home, at home, 10 men,

33:57

11 men, 9 men, about five men. back

34:00

all these different scenarios because there's a big

34:02

possibility that they might change to that and

34:04

then we've got to make sure that AR

34:06

players know, the VR substitutes are aware that

34:08

they're going into a new game, a new

34:11

challenge that they might not have seen on the Friday and that

34:13

sort of thing. So you're doing this

34:15

opposition analysis ahead of time? Ahead of time, yeah.

34:17

And you're looking through all of these different game

34:19

states and different situations. Yeah. Do

34:22

you've noticed trends in the way that teams are

34:24

doing things? Is it the case that most teams

34:26

will be doing roughly injuries notwithstanding

34:29

the same kind of

34:31

thing strategically from a substitute's point of view? Yeah,

34:33

no, the beauty of it, and again, it's the

34:35

beauty of substitutions in general, is that I don't

34:37

think I've ever been into a team or a

34:39

league where the trend is so consistent. You

34:42

might get a vague consistency in the sense that

34:44

that's a little bit similar to this, but

34:46

the beauty of substitutes is that it's people

34:49

and people change and they can be completely different

34:51

no matter what day they wake up on and

34:54

then what also affects it is the manager's

34:56

philosophy and every manager has a different philosophy. And

34:59

all these different factors mean that there's

35:03

not a lot of crossover where I could say,

35:05

this is one rule that will apply to every

35:07

sub in the world. There's little

35:09

things. So like if I said we have cue cards

35:11

for the subs who warm up properly, more of a

35:13

structured warm up, they don't just go down, drop them

35:16

on the leg, go to the gate, come back up.

35:19

That could be implemented and that will improve the physical

35:21

data. But things when you talk

35:23

about the tactical and the technical sense of it,

35:26

it's more a little bit individualistic to the

35:28

player and the team. And I

35:30

think that's where the margins are made is

35:32

because teams sometimes don't know their own

35:35

players and their own tactics and their own philosophies

35:38

and what maybe they need from their players,

35:40

if that makes sense. So yeah,

35:43

I think it's tough to say one rule of like, this is

35:45

going to make subs better in the world. But

35:48

yeah, I think it's about knowing your players and what

35:50

they bring to the game because everyone's playing profiles a

35:52

little bit different. You know, you could have two wingers,

35:54

but this wing is brilliant at 1v1 going down the

35:56

line. And this wing is brilliant at tucking in

35:59

receiving in the half space. two exactly same

36:01

roles, but just so different. He's

36:03

also six foot, so he can compete in the area. Jack

36:05

Greenish versus Jeremy Dockery, right? Exactly that. Two completely different profiles.

36:08

Exactly that, yeah. So you've got to know what they bring

36:10

so that you can then know how best to use them.

36:13

I interrupted you. You were talking about what

36:15

you, the conversations you have with the coach on

36:18

the bench. So you've got

36:20

all the prep that you've done. And

36:22

you, and before games, most of that, most

36:24

of the substitution like process will be already

36:27

determined, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

36:30

think again, it always depends on the manager. You know, it will

36:32

always be his or her discretion because at the end of

36:34

the day, they're going to have to go out and face

36:36

the heat that the media brings. So, you know, they have to

36:39

be, they have to be convinced of their decision. So

36:41

I think it would be unfair for me to say,

36:43

you've got to do this. Because at the end of

36:45

the day, I'll go home. And it's not me that

36:47

has to face any of the consequences as much as

36:49

the manager. So they- Oh, you're the substitution's coach. Sure.

36:52

I guess people will be, yeah. But

36:54

they, yeah, so it'd be at their discretion mostly.

36:58

But what we would do and what I

37:00

would do is prevent suggestion, present suggestions, sorry.

37:02

So I always say FIFA football

37:04

manager players are always quite good at this.

37:06

When you have suggested subs, that's

37:08

effectively my role on a game day. Yeah, it's a

37:10

good- The assistant manager has said, you're looking tired here.

37:12

I might be good. So

37:15

I would use this massive data collection because not only

37:17

do I scout the opposition, but what do our players

37:19

look like when they're winning? What do our players look

37:21

like when they're losing? What do our players look like

37:23

with 10 men away from home at home? And all

37:25

this data collates into one sort of, again, presentable image,

37:27

digestible format that I can show to the manager and

37:30

say, if you're winning, here's your best

37:32

five subs. If you're losing, here's your best five

37:34

subs. If you want to have more possession, here's your

37:36

best five subs. If you want to counter, here's your-

37:38

And it's just showing the manager so

37:40

that when it gets to that game day,

37:42

he can just go, Sammy said that, he

37:45

trained really well this week. He comes to me before

37:47

and said, you know, call the best, I like him,

37:49

you're gonna go for it. And it's just sort

37:52

of simplifying that process. But again, the

37:54

work's done and the build up to it. So before

37:56

a game, do you know roughly when the subs will

37:58

be made and how many will be made? Again, another

38:00

one where I say I've never seen two

38:02

games play out exactly the same way, so

38:04

beauty football is why we love it. So

38:06

what we find ways of doing is becoming

38:09

data driven and people driven and then aligning

38:11

them to then be sort

38:13

of player driven with our substitutions. So

38:16

we almost have impact times for these individuals. So

38:18

we say this wing is going to take 25

38:20

minutes. So if we're

38:22

losing at half time and you're thinking the winger maybe

38:24

isn't doing his job or his role, well we know

38:26

that this guy needs 25 minutes to

38:28

go and positively impact this game of football

38:30

in these specific KPIs. You know, it might

38:33

be that the team they're facing might not

38:35

need those KPIs for that particular game. So

38:38

it's just about all that sort of thing, trying

38:40

to be player driven with timings and choices because

38:42

I always say that the best player is not

38:44

always the right substitute. You've got to be deliberate

38:46

with who you pick because it's what the game

38:48

needs, it's what your team needs, it's what players

38:50

need. So yeah, we try to be people driven,

38:52

data driven, player driven with our timings. Do the

38:54

players themselves have a rough idea of if they're

38:57

going to come on or not? What do you

38:59

talk to them about what their tactical

39:01

function is going to be before the game? So

39:03

we'll talk throughout the game and again it's one

39:06

of my favourite roles is when I sit on

39:08

a bench with six, seven professional football players and

39:10

we chat about the game. You know, it's every

39:12

kid's dream when you grow up thinking, we sat with

39:14

these lads and we'd be watching and you know, first hand

39:16

this open game, you know, you say, oh, the fullback's got

39:18

to go in, he's got to go in and he's like,

39:20

no, the wide man's got to go. You know, I mean

39:22

all these great debates and so that's probably as much as

39:24

it will be for them

39:26

to think of engaging with the game. We

39:29

would never say, I don't like the

39:31

idea of planned substitutions too much because I

39:33

think you really have to manage a player

39:35

then because if they're thinking I'm

39:37

coming on at 70, I'm coming, they might tune off until

39:39

70. Whereas you need them to

39:42

be ready first half injury or now you've got to come on now.

39:44

It also might be, has got to 70, we

39:46

don't actually need you. Well, you just told me,

39:48

so now I'm going to be deflated even more.

39:50

So I think pre-planned substitutions can be nice

39:53

if it's real clarity around it. But I think

39:55

because of the nature of a game, it's so

39:57

unpredictable that I think there are dangerous errors. So

39:59

I would never say, oh, you

40:02

know, John, when you come on, you're going to be doing

40:04

this role in that 10 minutes time.

40:06

You know, it might be like, oh, it's interesting how our

40:09

wing is getting success down the outside of us. And he

40:11

might go, yeah, it's something I might try. And, you know,

40:13

it's little, little things like that. We just get them engaging

40:15

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41:19

I've got a question about timing of subs because, you

41:21

know, I don't know, it feels as though you

41:24

watch any football match and it's like, okay, 65, 70 minutes. You're

41:27

going to get loads of subs. And then

41:29

at the end of the game, when they're trying to draw

41:32

out like in injury time, you've got a few.

41:36

Do you have any thoughts on timings

41:39

and how it works? Is

41:41

it all, it sounds from what you're

41:43

saying, is that it's all going to be based

41:45

on in-game situations and decisions. But like what are

41:47

your general rules of thumb when it comes to

41:49

timing? So I go into managers and they say

41:52

they've got this like 72nd minute rule. I'm

41:54

not sure if they're very manager, I don't know if they coach

41:56

it on the pro license or something, but there's a study out

41:58

there that suggests it. Yeah, managers seem

42:00

to have this like 70 second minute, make some

42:03

changes, it seems to be the most timed substitution.

42:05

And I've never seen any data to suggest that

42:07

this produces, you know, a huge game change in

42:09

state or whatever. But so I don't know. Because

42:11

really one person scored a goal. Yeah, and everyone's

42:13

like, oh, you've got a stock card, come up

42:15

one time, done it. And everyone's like, he's the

42:17

man. Yeah. So yeah,

42:19

so for me, yeah, it's about being updated

42:21

with the game. It's about being in tune

42:23

with the game, it's about being player driven.

42:25

And so another example we use was if

42:27

a player starts getting tired across certain periods,

42:30

we would track that. So if we knew that our

42:32

winger at the 80th minute of every game just dropped,

42:35

then we would go, OK, well, you know, he's

42:37

starting to impact the impact of what the team

42:39

is needing now. So maybe we'll have our winger

42:41

ready at 75, 80

42:44

to try and transition that so we can keep

42:46

our momentum, our control in the game, because the

42:48

last five games, our left winger hasn't registered a

42:50

KPI in the last 10 minutes. So that might

42:52

be a little bit of predated that you then

42:54

might go, OK, well, 80 minutes is when we'll

42:56

bring this sub in. But

42:58

I think that's unlikely. I think a lot of the

43:00

time you're trying to watch the game, analyze the game

43:02

and do it with what you see in front of

43:04

you. I've also got the

43:06

words flow and rhythm written down

43:09

here, because obviously, games

43:11

flow and you have a momentum, you

43:13

lose momentum, you try and get momentum

43:15

back. How important are

43:17

those aspects to the substitution coaches

43:19

role? Massive. I think momentum in

43:21

football in general is such an

43:24

undervalued metric or term. You

43:26

know, momentum maps are in the conversation now,

43:28

but I don't know if there's many other

43:30

metrics around that space of momentum judging and

43:33

analyzing it. I went into

43:35

a national team recently who said they felt

43:37

their substitutions were affecting their momentum. They

43:39

were a possession side, heavy possession, like to

43:42

keep the ball. And when they made substitutions,

43:44

they felt that that momentum was lost.

43:46

They lost control and it reflected in their

43:48

productivity and their KPIs. So I

43:50

went in and sort of analyzed it, holistic sort of

43:52

analysis of it. And what we

43:55

found was that when they make three subs

43:57

at one go, that would massively deter

43:59

their momentum. in the game because of

44:01

the positions they were substituting, they were

44:03

arguably bringing on three players that weren't

44:05

massively ready. So let's say 4-3-3 left-wing

44:08

a striker right-winger. You bring three players on all at the

44:11

same time, all that maybe need a couple of minutes to

44:13

get their touch in, get their eye in. Well,

44:15

you know, to have your whole front three doing

44:17

that means that the ball's not sticking, which means

44:19

then the ball's coming back twice as quick or,

44:21

you know, their movements aren't sharp, which means it's

44:23

being intercepted or they're losing their 1v1s and like

44:26

I said, football is such fine margins that

44:28

you lose one duel and one fan jumps

44:30

on that and is buzzing with it, then

44:32

all the other fans are in and then

44:35

just like that the game changes. So we

44:37

found strategic ways, sort of actionable strategies from

44:39

this data to find better ways to bring

44:41

this team's substitutes into the game, particularly

44:43

losing, drawing, winning and all this sort of thing.

44:46

So yeah, we actually found out that

44:48

one sub, just bringing a 1 at a time, was

44:50

better for them because it just managed them to drip

44:52

feed their substitutes in. Now I know there's an interval

44:54

so you have to be careful with it, but

44:57

you know, at the cost of a

45:00

momentum you would take that trade off. By interval,

45:02

I mean you're allowed to make five subs within

45:04

three time periods, right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, if

45:06

you use up all three then you can't bring

45:08

up some more. And presumably

45:11

this stuff is play style

45:14

dependent, right? So you're talking about a high possession team where

45:16

if you make three subs at once, suddenly

45:18

they lose a little bit of the rhythm of

45:20

their passing and the momentum of their passing. It

45:22

may be the case that a team is low

45:25

block encounter, in which case actually introducing three players

45:27

makes a difference, right? So

45:30

kind of interested to hear how much you'd sort

45:32

of take into account the tactical aspects with these

45:34

decisions. I think it's massive, I think it's massive,

45:37

because it's what determines a game. I know that

45:39

there are people and we have to see how

45:41

people react to certain situations, but effectively

45:43

when a team sets up in this formation and you're

45:46

set up in this formation, naturally there's going to be

45:48

some battle on that pitch, so you have to be

45:50

aware of it. So that definitely

45:52

is going to influence it. And there was a

45:54

sub we might touch on it later,

45:56

just brought out a metric expected impact and there was

45:59

a substitute who was really, really good

46:01

when his team had less possession and

46:03

he was not as effective when his

46:05

team had more possession. So he was

46:07

just a player that suited, sitting back

46:09

into shape and exploding and that aligned

46:11

with his KPIs that he contributed to

46:14

the game, 1v1's explosive run. Let's

46:16

talk about that now then. That's an article you wrote for analytics

46:18

FC. And the player you're

46:20

talking about is Jan Maluk at Brentford,

46:23

right? Yeah, yeah. So the metric you're

46:25

talking about here is expected impact and

46:27

essentially what you're doing is you're looking

46:29

at the expected goal difference during

46:32

a player's stint on the field and trying

46:34

to determine things from that. Which I guess

46:36

sounds sort of like quite a

46:38

raw number to me but then you do go in and

46:40

start looking at again some of the tactical and

46:43

game state aspects. So with Jan Maluk

46:45

you go in and you say what's

46:47

the situation with possession during this

46:50

game? Is this a winning or losing game

46:52

state? And then you start finding out

46:54

information. So talk us through

46:56

the way that you've started applying data in

46:59

particular to what you do. Yeah, so I

47:01

would also stress that there's never, I don't think there's ever going

47:04

to be one numerical value that can summarise

47:06

a performance, let alone as a substitute. So this

47:08

is acting as part of a more layered process

47:10

and a more sort of full holistic analysis and

47:12

that sort of thing. So presumably if a number

47:14

shows up and they've done quite well you then

47:17

go and look at the game to see what

47:19

was the situation. So it's not just a couple

47:21

of guys got big jumps in their corners and

47:23

actually the tactical flow

47:26

of the game didn't really change at all. Exactly that,

47:28

yeah, it's context, it's context with everything. Just like with

47:30

XG there's context, you couldn't just look at XG and

47:32

presume everything could you? You'd have to go in. But

47:34

what I find is that this metric is probably the

47:36

closest thing at the moment

47:39

in this space of trying to value

47:41

a substitute than any other number

47:43

in the industry at the moment. So it's the

47:45

closest thing which is cool. It's also short-handed

47:47

stuff, right? It's very easy to pick up these numbers

47:50

and you can look through players then and be like,

47:52

oh this guy stands out. Now I'll go and watch

47:54

him and see whether or not there's anything there or if

47:56

it's just an anomaly that's showing up randomly in the data.

47:58

Yeah, exactly that. It gives you direction. gives you a

48:00

place to go and look. So Billy Gilmour in

48:02

that exact article comes up as a really good

48:04

player that every single time he came on registered

48:06

a really high expected impact across five or six

48:08

appearances. You then start going, well, there's a bit

48:10

of consistency and it gives you that idea of,

48:13

okay, well, there's something to work with here. And

48:15

then you start

48:17

looking at an outcome-based metric to partner

48:19

it with, and then you start looking

48:21

at individual contributions. And I think it's

48:23

really important because a lot of metrics,

48:25

I think at the moment around substitutions

48:27

are outcome-based. And I think it's

48:29

never a fair reflection potentially of

48:33

what they're doing in the game. So, you know,

48:35

expected impact is to try and add a little

48:37

bit more process into, into the sort of metric

48:39

and a little bit more performance driven. But also,

48:42

like you said, it's such a number that you

48:44

can look at and snap your fingers and you

48:46

can get it. There's no sort of like trying

48:48

to work it out and it's churning. It can

48:50

be done live. It can be done with timings.

48:52

It can, you know, I talk in the article

48:54

how you can help that influence your timing of

48:56

substitutions. If you know every minute you give Billy

48:58

Gilmore is, you know, expected impact of point two,

49:00

you know, all of a sudden every 10 minutes

49:02

we give him, this is what's going to lead

49:04

to. So yeah, it's, I think data

49:06

is a really important part. Once you get the

49:08

foundations of the psychological role of a substitute right

49:11

and the education of a substitute, I think the

49:13

data is where you can then go in and

49:15

help clubs to actually make the right substitutions. Is

49:17

there any other data stuff you're working with now

49:19

to try and sort of hone this, this process

49:22

for them or you mentioned KPIs anyway. So presumably

49:24

you're working with those in the back of your

49:26

mind anyway. So if a player comes on and

49:28

they're not hitting the sort of level that you

49:30

would expect from them in various metrics, then

49:33

I guess that's indicative of how

49:35

well they're playing as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

49:37

so we would also try to think the best

49:39

way. Top trumps might be a good way to

49:41

describe it. So you've got a winger who's averaging

49:44

one dribble every 10 minutes. Okay.

49:46

And he's getting the best of

49:48

his full back and it's getting loads of success for

49:50

us, but I've got a substitute on the bench. He's

49:52

going to average three dribbles for that time.

49:54

You go, well, that's probably the better option right now.

49:56

So you would look at the two and you'd say,

49:58

well, that's, that's the. we're going to go for because

50:00

not only is he fresh, but

50:02

he's delivering what we actually need

50:04

in this game of football. And that's why I

50:07

think KPI's are so important to these teams is

50:09

because you have to know your identity because different

50:11

teams I go into will have completely different metrics,

50:13

completely different player performance profiling and all this sort

50:15

of thing. So you have to really understand them

50:18

in order to understand what they're going to bring

50:20

to the game of football. How do you avoid

50:22

falling into the trap of if a player is

50:24

only being used as a substitute, then they're going

50:26

to have like unrepresentative data, not only because they

50:29

have like tiny sample sizes, but also because they're

50:31

coming on in a game state where they're going

50:33

to be fresh versus the majority of the opposition

50:35

won't be. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. And again,

50:38

a lot of the, I don't have much resistance

50:40

with this role, if I'm honest, but the little

50:42

bits that does come from the data sort of

50:44

scientist in the world that says, well, small sample

50:46

sizes means I'm reliable and I would agree to

50:49

an extent, but that doesn't mean

50:51

that you should just ignore it completely. You know, it's the

50:53

closest thing in the field, I think. And also what I

50:55

think is if you were to play a

50:57

game and you'd lose that game, you

50:59

wouldn't just ignore it. You wouldn't just go, it's only

51:01

one game. You would research that game. You knew your

51:03

goal. Why is it? Why did it happen? So let's

51:05

say a substitute comes off a substitute

51:07

comes on, sorry, play 12 minutes and not, not

51:09

huge amount of game time stinks place out awful

51:11

performance. You wouldn't just go, it's only 12 minutes

51:13

and don't judge him. There will probably be a

51:16

reason as to why that player has gone on

51:18

and not performed for 12 minutes. You know, whether

51:20

it's enough to make full long term conclusions,

51:22

I agree is probably not enough, but you

51:24

can still go on and go, well, his

51:26

first four actions were negative, which means maybe

51:28

he was making the wrong decisions, you

51:31

know, as coming on. So maybe we practice that

51:33

at half time. So his muscle memory is more

51:35

in tune with the game. You know, it's something.

51:37

So I agree that it's

51:39

a tough area. And which also while

51:41

a lot of my contracts are with teams across

51:43

a longer period, because you can build data and

51:45

build sample size. And you know, you even get

51:48

teams now that sign substitutes effectively, thinking that sub

51:50

data is good. So he's going to be something

51:52

that can be involved in that side of things

51:54

very much. Sometimes I'm asked, yeah, not so much

51:56

I won't go meet with the recruitment team or

51:58

anything, but they might say Yeah,

52:01

you know who's been good subs, sub goals, sub shots

52:03

on target, you know this sort of thing because like

52:05

I said I do think there is an art to

52:07

being a good sub. I think it's luck. That's

52:10

very different from being a regular player right?

52:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So

52:15

we've talked about psychological, we've talked about the

52:17

tactical, let's just talk quickly about the physical.

52:20

You've already alluded to the fact that

52:22

maybe some teams don't use the best

52:24

prep for their substitutes warming up which

52:26

seems mad because the process that is

52:28

involved in warming up. The

52:30

starter as well, yeah. It's

52:32

mad. So how do you get around some of those

52:35

problems? So I would say again it's

52:38

something where there's space out there for more

52:40

research to be done. I do

52:42

club based research and unfortunately I can't reveal that because

52:44

it has a lot of sort of player specific data

52:46

and stuff so I only talk to it with clubs

52:48

that I present to but it would be brilliant one

52:50

day to get it out in the public domain and

52:52

have universities research it and that

52:54

sort of stuff. But if I ask you to jump

52:57

up now and reach your top speed, be very tough

52:59

and it's exactly the same what a substitute goes through.

53:01

You get a one by one space on

53:03

the side of a touch line with fans

53:05

pelting you to make yourself ready to go

53:07

and win the game of football, close the game of football. So

53:10

you have to utilise

53:13

those warm ups

53:15

as much as you can and I touched

53:17

on it earlier but obviously one thing we

53:19

do is the cue card, a warm up

53:21

card that players can take and it can

53:23

be individualised to the specific player as well,

53:25

specific position, position specific work, movement, that sort

53:27

of thing so you're building in the muscle

53:29

memory. I

53:32

feel a lot of the time as well and this is no

53:34

disrespect to anyone in the process but managers are looking at the

53:37

11 because that's the most important thing. Sports

53:39

scientists are a little bit engaged, no one really looks at the

53:41

subs which is why you've

53:43

got so much data and video and clips of stuff

53:45

where subs as I said earlier go down, track to

53:47

their mate on the opposition, have a little bit of

53:50

a laugh, then do a few hops and jump back

53:52

up and I think that's not enough, that's not enough

53:54

to go and ensure your body is in the best

53:56

state to go and impact it. So add

53:59

in these cue cards. then puts the demand on them,

54:01

they then go, okay, well, this

54:03

is what you have to complete. You know, it's gonna be

54:05

filmed, or it's gonna be looked at, it's gonna be watched.

54:07

I wanna hear feedback from it or whatever, to try and

54:10

put demand on them, to then go,

54:12

you're now accountable as a substitute, which

54:14

often gets overlooked. And there

54:16

are some crazy ways at the moment. I think Brentford,

54:19

I don't know this exactly right, Brentford have

54:21

something that tests the core temperature of a

54:24

player, so they can then track when

54:26

the player needs to go warm up, because

54:28

if their temperature drops at a certain point, they can

54:30

be like, you need to go warm up, bring it back up. Old

54:33

Trafford, I've heard, has warm seats, so

54:37

keeping your muscles warm in between has done a lot easier.

54:39

I would still argue that the muscle memory of it needs

54:41

to be performed the action. But there's

54:43

little ways as well, like you said, that

54:45

you can implement to keep players ready,

54:47

I suppose, to go and impact

54:49

the game, because physical demand is

54:52

so high now and intense. And

54:54

half-time is an important period for that, right?

54:56

Half-time's massive. For me, half-time is the 15

54:58

minutes that you get to have a ball,

55:00

have a ball, go and play football, because

55:03

you can't do that in the 0-45,

55:05

46-90. You

55:08

have to utilise that 15 minutes. And

55:10

it frustrates me a

55:12

little bit when I see subs go in to the

55:15

team talk, and it frustrates me a little bit

55:17

when I see them doing physical warm-up, because I

55:19

just think this is your only time before you

55:21

potentially go on and perform the action that you

55:23

have to go on before the action. This is

55:25

your only time to whip across, because

55:27

when it comes to the 60th minute, you can't just

55:29

go whip a few crosses in down the touch line

55:31

to make sure you're ready. So yeah,

55:33

for me, half-time is ball work, utilising that

55:36

15 minutes as much as possible. That

55:39

brings us to the end of the substitute section, but I did

55:41

want to ask maybe a couple of, well, I've got you. Maybe

55:44

the world leading expert on substitutes. Think about

55:46

that. That sounds good to me. Yeah. Players

55:49

who've succeeded as substitutes who come to the top of your

55:51

head, and why you think they were so good at

55:54

being played as substitutes. Yeah, interesting one.

55:56

So Leon Bailey at the moment for

55:59

Villa. incredibly,

56:01

incredibly good data. You know, surprisingly,

56:04

not surprisingly good, but I suppose, you know,

56:07

drastically good, like real margins above a lot of

56:09

other players who are in similar teams roles and

56:11

that sort of thing. I think he's

56:13

got eight goal contributions off the top of my

56:15

head from substitute performances. His expected impact

56:18

is one of the highest in the league. As

56:21

to why I think he would be there, I

56:24

think he's been consistent in his use, so

56:27

this would have died again off the top of my head. It would

56:29

have to go through, but I think the times at which he is

56:31

used is consistent, so he probably gets

56:33

a lot of repetition at doing

56:35

the same role. As a manager

56:37

who's very tactic specific

56:40

as well. Exactly, that same system, same role,

56:42

you know, same possession, same style, you know,

56:44

it's very, like I said, consistent. So if

56:46

he's having time to go in and practice

56:48

it over and over and over again, which

56:50

I'd probably help. Just other good

56:53

subs I can remember. I see Billy Gilmour as one.

56:55

Rico Lewis always comes up as really

56:58

high expected impact, which is interesting. Young

57:00

player. I guess

57:02

when he comes on he tends to change the tactical

57:05

structure, which he's faced, so maybe he's being

57:08

used in a way that is good

57:10

by the coaching staff, that they recognise they need

57:12

to change things and he allows them to make

57:15

that change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would be brilliant

57:17

to sit down with the managers, I often think

57:19

that, and think, like, because there are

57:21

some teams that have really good subs that I've

57:23

not been into and you're just saying, I'd love

57:25

to know what you're doing, I'd love to know

57:27

what process you're implementing to achieve that sort of

57:30

level of success. And then

57:32

managers who you think are good at making substitutions, are

57:34

there any that stand out to you? So

57:36

Klopp done really well this year,

57:38

obviously really high substitute goal involvement,

57:41

really good outcome-based metrics from losing

57:43

positions, drawing positions. Mansfield,

57:45

which is a bit of a left wing,

57:47

left wing. Oh yes, of course. Yeah, your

57:49

go-to football drawing. And obviously it's nice because

57:51

I don't know what their budget is in

57:53

terms of that league, but I

57:56

think they're second or third, so they've obviously had a

57:58

good year, but a really nice... metrics

58:01

been produced from there, from

58:04

them and there was Barnsley was the

58:06

other one who have had typically quite

58:08

nice substitute involvement. A lot of

58:10

the stuff that you are doing is taking the

58:13

pressure off managers around substitutions. So

58:15

yeah just a follow-up question about what you

58:17

think are the things that make coaches good

58:19

at substitutes from maybe that different position of

58:21

not being able to focus on it the

58:23

whole time like you are. What do you

58:25

think of the things that stand out to

58:27

you about coaches who do that that well?

58:29

I think again it depends on the the

58:31

sort of part of the concept that you

58:34

explore. I would say psychologically the best

58:37

managers are those who are honest and those who

58:39

are understanding and those who will just level

58:42

with the player and I think treat them

58:44

with the respect that you would as

58:46

anyone you know sometimes I think

58:48

there's that stigma aware it's a substitute like said it's a little

58:50

bit taboo so it's like I don't really want to talk about

58:53

it. I mean so I'll just name him as a sub and

58:55

hopefully he'll just turn up on the day and feel alright whereas

58:57

I think the best managers will sit down and say look this

58:59

is the reason why you're going to be a substitute it

59:01

could be as simple as your your

59:03

strengths in this position do not

59:06

suit what the game needs so we aren't going to need

59:08

that today next week you're going to

59:10

be one of the most important players you know

59:12

or your training's been a little bit down recently

59:14

for these reasons go and work

59:17

on it and then you know and it's a

59:19

target and I think that is what I do

59:21

when I come in and you know I I

59:23

tend to be the middleman sometimes between manager and

59:25

player because sometimes it can be a little bit

59:27

you know easier hearing from someone who is a

59:29

I'd say supportive but challenging coach you

59:31

know balancing it but yeah

59:34

managers who are honest treat them as people I think

59:36

that's massive and then as a data I think

59:38

managers who are

59:40

receptive to hearing a different

59:43

way about substituting and that's not like I said that's not

59:45

me coming in and saying I think you have to do

59:47

this you need to change you're bad at this it's me

59:49

saying this is the last 10 substitutes

59:51

you've used this is sort of the outcome that it's

59:53

that it's yielded I

59:55

think from my previous date of research you

59:57

know data collection if we did this I

1:00:00

think we could get a little

1:00:02

bit more and Mark Robinson was

1:00:04

unbelievable, that wind would have been

1:00:06

so receptive to it, would sit

1:00:08

down, would honestly ask my opinions,

1:00:10

want to know what the information

1:00:12

said because effectively it's someone whose

1:00:14

role is dedicated to this speciality, this

1:00:16

niche so you'd want

1:00:19

to hear them, you'd want to hear their opinions, you'd

1:00:21

want to hear their thoughts. Whether you go with them

1:00:23

is a different matter but to hear them out is

1:00:25

brilliant. So receptive managers who are honest I think will

1:00:27

have a real understanding of

1:00:29

substitutions. I've just got

1:00:32

a few questions just about the substitution

1:00:34

coach role to end things with because

1:00:37

we had quite a few people on this

1:00:39

podcast who have had niche roles, so we

1:00:41

had Thomas Grunemarck who's a throw-ins coach and

1:00:44

we've had Chris O'Hare as well

1:00:46

who melds together psychology

1:00:49

and coaching as well and I think it's

1:00:51

an area that's really interesting because obviously football

1:00:53

is moving towards that level of specialisation in

1:00:55

order to get marginal gains because they can

1:00:58

have such an impact. And

1:01:01

I have to confess to you, I was a little bit

1:01:03

sceptical about the idea of a substitutes coach coming

1:01:05

into this, not for any great reason

1:01:08

other than in my head like

1:01:10

surely the coaching staff should be able to do this,

1:01:12

isn't that part of their job? But

1:01:14

having listened to you speak about it, I think you've

1:01:16

persuaded me, a lot of the stuff that you're talking

1:01:18

about here is specialising in

1:01:20

a thing so that the coach and the coaching

1:01:23

staff don't need to worry about another level of

1:01:26

coaching, right? And having someone who can

1:01:28

specialise in that actually is going to

1:01:30

create a lot more insight and

1:01:32

upside than if your assistant is

1:01:35

doing it right. Talk

1:01:38

to me about some of the scepticism maybe

1:01:40

that you've faced as you've been going into

1:01:42

clubs and doing this because you said the

1:01:44

guy at Wimbledon was amazing

1:01:46

but he sort you out and

1:01:48

brought you in and so it makes sense that he would

1:01:50

want to be

1:01:52

receptive to the ideas that you're putting out there.

1:01:54

What are the experiences you've had of people who

1:01:57

have maybe been a bit more sceptical? I think,

1:01:59

if I'm honest. I

1:02:01

went through a period where I was just trying to do anybody,

1:02:03

you know, on LinkedIn, getting out to any manager that I could

1:02:05

to say, this is it, this is the concept, kind of do

1:02:07

it. And then you get a little

1:02:10

bit more receptiveness because similar to yourself, when

1:02:12

you just read substitutions coach, I don't think it

1:02:14

necessarily brings the most detail

1:02:17

and then background to it in context.

1:02:19

So I think you can be

1:02:21

a little bit like, well, what is he just like telling them

1:02:23

to warm up? Like, you know, there is, there is those questions,

1:02:26

which is why I think it's so important that you get someone in front of

1:02:28

you to say, this is what I'm going to do. This is how I'm going

1:02:30

to do it. This is what you're going to see from me. So,

1:02:34

this win, they've reached a point where I thought I've

1:02:36

got to stop being deliberate with who I reach out

1:02:38

to. Because if I reach out to some

1:02:40

clubs who are maybe a little bit more traditional, which

1:02:42

is nothing wrong with that, you know, it's the way

1:02:44

football is, game of opinion, there's no right or wrong.

1:02:46

They're just not going to be what I

1:02:48

need them to be and now I'm not going to be in return. Yeah,

1:02:51

for the upside, you're going to be on top

1:02:53

of that. Yeah, we don't, we don't want each

1:02:55

other, you know, that's what, and I want people

1:02:57

who want me. I want people who want the

1:02:59

role, who have gone, our subs aren't doing better.

1:03:01

We need to go and find someone who's going

1:03:03

to, even if it's just a one-off presentation, you

1:03:05

know, get them in for the day, three month

1:03:07

contract, six month contract, years contract, whatever, just

1:03:09

get them in the building. He's an expert, he's

1:03:11

researched it, let's see what he, see what he

1:03:14

says. And I think when I started changing my

1:03:16

approach to being deliberate with who I wanted to

1:03:18

go and chat to, then it started becoming

1:03:20

a lot more successful. But I think, just

1:03:23

to show what we said before, I think substitution

1:03:25

coach is so specialist and like I said, you

1:03:27

could get an assistant to do it. And I'm

1:03:29

not against, I think the future of this role

1:03:31

is that you become a first team coach who

1:03:33

just specialises in subs. And I'm sure if you're

1:03:35

offered like that position as an assistant coach with

1:03:37

a specialisation in substitutions, wouldn't you? Yeah, yeah. And

1:03:39

also it would be very difficult for me now

1:03:41

not to think in that way, because it's just

1:03:43

what I've done. Yeah, even if you were a

1:03:46

head coach, you'd be thinking in those terms. Yeah,

1:03:48

what are the subs doing? Yeah. And I think

1:03:50

a great example of this is the

1:03:52

assistant could do it, but then what are you taking

1:03:54

them away from? So are they then obviously not

1:03:56

putting all their energy into the starters, which is

1:03:59

obviously a really important part, the other

1:04:01

aspect is goalkeeping coaches. I don't understand why,

1:04:03

you know, goalkeeping coaches are effectively

1:04:05

the first specialist coaches in the world and

1:04:07

now they're seen as a staple part of

1:04:09

every management team and rightfully so, I think

1:04:12

they're hugely important but the relationship that a

1:04:14

goalkeeping coach has with his players is one that

1:04:16

I've always looked to replicate because it's,

1:04:19

you know, every time I

1:04:21

go in it's like the GK Union, you know,

1:04:23

it's sort of like this banded together and their

1:04:25

brothers. Yeah, on the subs union. But like, you

1:04:27

know, if the number three has a problem, you

1:04:30

know, he goes to the goalkeeping coach, he talks to the

1:04:32

goalkeeping coach, maybe the goalkeeping coach might tell him to go

1:04:34

to the manager and sort him on but, you

1:04:36

know, there's that bond, there's that unity, there's

1:04:38

that they train together, you know, they're all

1:04:40

in it together, they're supportive of each other

1:04:42

and I think why can't that be done

1:04:44

with substitutes just as it is with goalkeeping

1:04:46

pieces to an extent so, yeah, I think

1:04:48

it can be in the future

1:04:51

of part of football definitely. Well,

1:04:53

Sam, I think that brings us to a really nice

1:04:55

conclusion. It's been great having you on. You

1:04:57

mentioned that you're on LinkedIn, you use that quite a lot so

1:04:59

if people want to catch up with you, get

1:05:02

in touch with you, then they can head

1:05:04

over there. Sami Lander is your name. You're

1:05:06

also on Twitter although very recently I believe.

1:05:08

Yeah, I'm not massive on social media, I

1:05:10

just don't, I get it and I

1:05:12

think it's such a powerful tool and like

1:05:14

I said, recently on Twitter, the amount of threads you

1:05:16

can find on tactical systems coaching sessions is brilliant but

1:05:19

in terms of, yeah, my content probably isn't where

1:05:21

it should be so. But if people do want

1:05:23

to go there, you are at Sami underscore Lander

1:05:25

with two hours at the end of the cylinder,

1:05:27

right. Thank you so much for coming on, I've

1:05:29

hugely enjoyed chatting. I hope you've got the impression that

1:05:31

I've enjoyed chatting to you because I have enjoyed it

1:05:34

and I'm so thankful for you just exploring

1:05:36

this concept of substitution. Yeah, not a big,

1:05:38

big thank you for having me on. Like

1:05:40

I said, hopefully this continues that revolution around substitutions

1:05:42

and if it's not too late, I could

1:05:44

plug my book if that's all right. I've

1:05:46

got a book coming out in hopefully this

1:05:48

summer called Finishers and it's

1:05:50

about like you said touched on earlier a little book

1:05:52

about some of the strategies I've done data I've collected

1:05:54

and hopefully those around the world whether

1:05:57

you're playing at the lowest level of Sunday football

1:05:59

or the Why yes, you can take something

1:06:01

from it and continue your own substitute revolution.

1:06:31

You