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The Athletic Hello

0:38

and welcome to the Tfoe Football Podcast. I

0:40

am John McKenzie, as I always am. And

0:42

the other person who always am is with

0:44

me too. It's Mike Zimmerman, my good pal

0:47

and producer, Mike Hadie. Life

0:49

is good, John. How have you been? Good.

0:51

It's sunny. It feels as though

0:53

maybe the summer has finally arrived here in

0:55

the UK. So I'm feeling pretty good,

0:57

yeah. But what I'm feeling

0:59

most good about is the

1:02

episode that we have recorded today,

1:04

because we have just recorded another

1:06

up-and-coming coaches episode. You may

1:08

remember that we recorded an episode with Liam Tharm

1:10

and Mark Carey, looking at some of the coaches

1:12

that they've covered in that series. Unfortunately, Tom Harris

1:15

was away when we recorded that episode. I thought

1:17

it would be good to get him on because

1:19

he has a couple of interesting Spanish coaches

1:21

to talk about. So this week's

1:23

episode is all Spanish managers. Spannagers,

1:26

you might call them. And that's

1:28

what we have talked about today. And

1:30

Mike, you've just listened to that episode.

1:33

What did you make of it? Yeah, I think this

1:35

was the perfect episode to compliment the one we did

1:37

with Liam and Mark. You

1:39

know, we weren't able to dive in to

1:41

the up-and-coming Spanish managers with them. And

1:44

this is where Tom comes in. Spannagers,

1:46

Mike. Spannagers. I apologize. Are

1:48

we still deciding whether or not that's going to be the title?

1:51

I'm a little bit nervous about putting that

1:53

out in our feed because people may not

1:55

click on it. But yeah, you never know.

1:58

We can talk about this. Okay. What's

2:00

interesting about this conversation is

2:03

more particular to the two managers,

2:05

Michel and Pimienta, and whether their

2:07

ideas and styles would translate to

2:09

either other Spanish clubs or

2:11

abroad. Yeah, and we also did touch upon

2:13

Ernesto Valverde, who's just won the Copa del

2:15

Rey with Athletic Club as well. So if

2:17

that interests you, then we have about 10

2:19

minutes at the end where we dip into

2:21

that too. But as always, the

2:23

best thing for us to do here is to just jump straight into that

2:25

conversation. Well,

2:35

it's my pleasure to have Tom Harris with me

2:37

in the studio today. Tom, thank you so much

2:39

for coming in. Thanks for having me. A real

2:41

pleasure. Yeah, you've haired it down

2:44

the country, down from the Etihad last night

2:46

where you were watching Manchester City get knocked

2:48

out by a Spanish club. Yeah, ironic. I

2:50

will move past that. Yeah,

2:52

you treated them so well and this is

2:54

how they repay you. We have

2:56

got you on because we did an episode on

2:59

up and coming coaches with Liam Tham and Mark

3:01

Carey recently. And you wrote a couple of pieces

3:03

in that series as well, but you were away

3:05

when we recorded that episode. So I thought it

3:07

was only fair to get you on for an

3:10

episode on the Spanish coaches. I was going to

3:12

call this episode, Spannagers, but I'm going to give

3:14

that the title of the episode. Maybe

3:16

people wouldn't actually click on it. So I've chickened out,

3:18

but I'll refer to it here because

3:20

I think it's a silly joke. I

3:23

think the best place for us to start is probably

3:25

a little bit of an intro about your background because

3:27

I think it's actually quite interesting how you ended up

3:30

covering Spanish football. So you were actually

3:32

a language student at university, right? And as

3:34

part of that, you ended up in Spain. Yeah, that's right.

3:36

I've been studying languages basically all the way

3:38

through school, college, university, and Spanish was a

3:40

language that just kind of stuck with me.

3:43

And I found myself as a way to kind of

3:45

immerse myself watching La Liga and just kind

3:47

of subconsciously kind of absorbing all of

3:49

that knowledge for like 10, 15 years and just

3:51

not really real. And then realizing that I was

3:54

kind of getting all of this into my head,

3:56

but then when I kind of made a more

3:58

concerted effort to get into football. it

4:00

was kind of already there, which was really great.

4:03

But yeah, during university,

4:05

I went to work for the VAR, which

4:07

was a really good opportunity. I was more

4:10

in the media department, so I was more doing translation and that

4:12

kind of thing, but that allowed me to go

4:14

to a few games, get a bit more kind of on the

4:16

ground experience. And then yeah, from there,

4:18

I had a job at Man City in a

4:20

similar role, kind of doing translations and again, media

4:22

and that kind of thing. And

4:25

yeah, now lucky enough to be here at the

4:27

Athletic doing kind of data journalism with Mark Carey,

4:30

doing a lot of the visualizations and things like that and

4:32

helping with the La Liga coverage, which is really

4:34

great. It's interesting here, you talk

4:37

about the immersion that you got from watching Spanish

4:39

football. I think something that stands out

4:41

for me today is that the coaches that we're

4:43

gonna talk about in particular are

4:45

all clubs that are kind of interesting from a cultural

4:47

point of view as well as from a footballing point

4:49

of view. And I don't know, maybe I am

4:52

just numbed to this a little

4:54

bit with the English clubs because we just live in England

4:56

and it makes a lot of sense. And I just sort

4:58

of assume a lot of the cultural background,

5:01

but how much would you say

5:03

that there is a difference between

5:05

Spanish football compared

5:07

to English football in terms of the culture of

5:09

the clubs that are in La Liga that we're

5:11

gonna talk about today? Yeah, massive. I mean, I

5:13

think if we're looking at the

5:16

example that jumps out is Raya Vallecano. Obviously,

5:18

you know a lot about them with Ando Níria de Hola

5:20

last season, but their identity is

5:23

so linked to who they are as

5:25

a football team. Their fan base is

5:27

really close to the players, not

5:30

so close to the ownership, which

5:32

creates a nice tension there. But

5:34

yeah, politically in terms

5:36

of where they are in Madrid and

5:38

all these different kinds of things, they're really, really interesting.

5:41

It really kind of plays out on the pitch. You've

5:43

got teams like obviously like Real Madrid and

5:46

Barcelona, there's obviously lots of political background there.

5:48

The Basque clubs who hopefully will pick up

5:51

on Athletic Club towards the end of this

5:53

episode, but very fiercely loyal

5:55

to their identity and who

5:57

they are as people. And again, that

5:59

trans... translates onto the pitch. It's really interesting. I

6:01

don't think you get as much of it in English

6:04

football. You can go

6:06

to a game in Sevilla, you can go to

6:08

a game in Vigo in the north where it's

6:10

a bit rainier and it's a bit

6:12

colder and it's just a completely different atmosphere and I do

6:14

think I quite like that. You've

6:17

got me regretting the fact that we're not

6:19

talking about Andoni Ola now, but what we are going

6:21

to focus on is a bunch

6:24

of coaches who have had interesting seasons, have

6:26

stood out this season. A couple of them

6:28

up and coming and

6:30

you mentioned Athletic Club have

6:33

just won the Copa del Rey with Ernesto

6:35

Valverde who is obviously not an up and

6:37

coming coach, he is an up and come

6:39

coach. It's interesting for us to just touch

6:41

on him right at the end. We'll spend

6:43

less time talking about him I'm sure, but

6:46

the two coaches that we are going to talk about are Michelle

6:49

Girona and Garcia Pimienta at

6:51

Las Palmas. Let's start with Michelle because Michelle is

6:53

the coach that everyone has been talking about all

6:56

season really in terms of his

6:58

Girona came out of the blocks really excitingly

7:00

at the beginning of the season. They were at the

7:02

top of the league for a long period and they've

7:04

been challenging the big clubs as well,

7:07

both for the big sides in Spain have

7:09

struggled in some games against

7:11

them. Let's talk about

7:13

Girona, they've had this fun season, talk us through

7:15

it in terms of the big picture. Yeah,

7:18

it's been amazing to be honest because

7:20

you have to realise that Girona, this

7:22

is their fourth season ever in La

7:24

Liga. They come from a quite

7:27

small village really in Catalonia so they

7:29

are not used to this kind of thing. For

7:32

a long time most of their history really they

7:34

have been in regionalised Spanish fourth here which is

7:37

a bit murky when you get down there, it's very difficult to

7:39

get out and as recently as

7:41

17 years ago they were down there so for them

7:43

to be challenging at the top of La Liga this

7:45

season is pretty amazing. They've

7:48

tailed off slightly in recent weeks unfortunately. They lost

7:50

both of their games around Madrid which I

7:52

think was a real blow in their title

7:54

race because the incident gave up six points

7:56

and the second game it was 4-0 at the

7:58

Bennebeu and they were... Outclass a

8:00

little bit, but they're still in a really healthy position

8:03

for Champions League football Which in and of itself will

8:05

be incredible eight points clear of rare saucy dad in

8:07

fifth Yeah, just in the

8:09

context of you know their

8:11

history as a club It's it's amazing and some

8:13

of the memories that they'll take from this season

8:16

They beat Barcelona for the first time in

8:18

their history in the league That was an

8:21

amazing game for two away at Montchweig and

8:23

that temporarily took them to the top

8:25

of the table So they'll never forget that fourth

8:27

three over a flight to come Madrid as well That was their

8:30

first ever win over a flight to come Madrid Even

8:32

Martin with basically the last kick of the game And

8:34

I don't know if you've seen that goal But very

8:37

much reminded me of the I at or a at

8:39

the Emirates just kind of lets it run across his

8:41

body and floats Into the into the far corner that

8:43

was that was just brilliant But

8:45

yeah aside from that they've played some really really good

8:47

football of lots and lots of goals on the only

8:49

round Madrid They've scored more and they just

8:51

have this ability to just kind of carve out the

8:53

chances chance after chance and they're really high quality Chances

8:55

as well even when they're under pressure so

8:58

there's a game that sticks out to me

9:00

against Ray Viacano earlier in the season where

9:03

They they go behind early. They're a bit shaken. There's a

9:05

defense in mistake. I think I see give us all the

9:07

way They're under a lot of pressure and in this you

9:09

know in the face of this high press But they just

9:11

persist with this style of playing the ball out and looking

9:14

for the spaces up up field kind of

9:17

Overloading that the final third and they end

9:20

up winning this game to one and generating

9:22

nearly 5 xg Which is it's just incredible.

9:24

So they have this ability to yeah, just

9:27

even when it's looking like it's not going their way

9:29

They still create really big chances. Nice.

9:31

Jeez. Just nice to see Before

9:34

we get into talking about Michelle properly, let's

9:36

talk a little bit about just your own

9:38

and themselves you already mentioned that they're a

9:41

unique side they've not got a really big

9:43

history of of Playing

9:46

on our Liga, but they are kind of unique

9:49

in terms of they are owned by the City

9:51

Football Group What

9:53

impact do you think that that has had or

9:55

has on on them in terms of how you

9:58

view them as a football club? Yeah,

10:00

I mean it's the elephant in the

10:02

room. Obviously being linked to CFG,

10:04

I think it's a 47% share in the

10:06

club. Pide Guadiola, the brother of Pep, is

10:09

the chairman. So it does

10:11

bring advantages. Most of those advantages are

10:13

kind of sharing knowledge. There's lots of

10:15

hands-on kind of help on the training

10:18

ground. The scouting network is definitely boosted

10:20

by having CFG's influence there. But

10:22

I think for me it's important to stress that

10:25

it hasn't really brought financial help, which is an

10:27

easy assumption to make if you're not following Giordano.

10:30

Because that makes it easy to dismiss the

10:32

good coaching work that Michelle has done this season.

10:36

Their salary cap is around 1 16th

10:38

of Real Madrid's. So they're

10:40

not able to attract the

10:42

biggest players with any money.

10:46

Most of the players in the squad, you're

10:48

looking at Daily Blend, Elic Garcia, even Paolo

10:50

Gazzaniga in gold. They're all discarded by bigger

10:53

clubs. Miguel

10:55

Gutierrez, the right back, was sold by Real Madrid,

10:57

4 million euros. And he's probably one of the

10:59

best, most interesting fullbacks in world

11:01

football at the moment. Elic Garcia

11:03

in the midfield. I mean, he was

11:05

on loan in Belgium a couple of seasons

11:08

ago. He was struggling for minutes in

11:10

Romanian football. And now he's

11:12

arguably up there with Tony Kroos as

11:14

the best kind of holding midfielder in

11:16

the division. So it's still an unprecedented

11:18

achievement. And I think we should talk

11:20

about what Michelle's done, what these plays

11:22

have done, despite what some

11:24

people might consider as controversial backing.

11:26

Yeah, absolutely. And when we talk

11:29

about the Transo window later on,

11:31

it's just remarkable how much value for money they

11:33

got. They spent, I think, less than, it's

11:36

about 20 million euros or something. And they've

11:38

built this team of players

11:40

playing some of the most attractive football

11:43

in Europe at the moment. So let's just

11:45

begin by Michelle. In

11:48

terms of his playing career, he spends a

11:51

long time at Riot Viconos. You mentioned that

11:53

team already, but just a sort of standard

11:58

Spanish footballer. Yeah, he's a bit of a... Nippy

12:00

winger, left-footed, he had this really good ability to

12:02

like pop up at the back post and

12:05

yeah 17 seasons all in all with with Raya Vayekanas a

12:08

bit of a club legend. And

12:11

his managerial career I think is actually quite

12:13

interesting because he has a reputation

12:16

for getting clubs out of

12:18

the Segunda into the into La Liga

12:20

and then promptly them getting relegated so

12:23

he did that with Ryo and Huesca

12:25

as well. The

12:27

interesting thing maybe is that he

12:29

booked the trend at Girona so he brought them up

12:31

from the Segunda and then kept them up last

12:34

season only for them

12:36

to challenge for Champions League spots this season so

12:38

yeah what's the what do you take away from

12:40

his his managerial career to date? Yeah

12:42

I mean I think to be honest he has

12:45

been quite unfortunate that he was dismissed at these

12:47

clubs at Ryo which you know is quite particularly

12:49

difficult for him to take because he's a club

12:51

legend there but he got them promoted and then

12:53

there wasn't really given much of a chance in

12:56

La Liga they got rid of him fairly

12:58

quickly the same happened at Huesca and

13:02

you know particularly that Huesca team it was a team

13:04

that you were kind of sad to see them

13:06

relegated because they did play some good football there

13:08

were obvious gaps they did lose some

13:10

games quite heavily but they were a good team to watch

13:12

and that was my first kind of seeing

13:15

Michel on the big stage and realizing

13:17

that there's perhaps something there but

13:19

yeah when he came to Girona I mean similarly they

13:22

were a team who were struggling with

13:24

that kind of promotion, relegation,

13:26

theme they got to the player

13:28

final in each of the previous two seasons and lost they

13:31

lost in the last second of the second leg

13:33

against Elgin the first one which was just absolutely

13:35

devastating they were 2-1 off after the first leg

13:37

in the second one lost so they had this

13:40

kind of a thing where they kept getting so

13:42

close but not quite getting over the line Michel

13:44

came and they finally won they won a playoff final as

13:47

well which you know third time lucky for them and

13:50

yeah it just kind of felt like the

13:52

team had finally found that manager that they

13:54

were looking for to take them up and

13:56

Michel had then finally found the team that

13:58

he was looking for in order to kind

14:00

of given a bit more of a chance and they stuck with him. They

14:03

had a bit of a rocky start this first season with

14:06

Giudona. They went seven games

14:08

without a win but throughout that they again, like

14:10

I said with Weskovet, looked pretty good. Alish

14:12

Garcia was playing really, really well. And

14:15

yeah, he just got a bit more time and

14:18

yes, in turn they haven't really looked back. Yeah,

14:21

I remember reading a quote from

14:24

Michelle who was talking about how he

14:26

changed the way that the team approached

14:28

the defensive aspect of the game, suggesting

14:31

that in previous seasons he had

14:33

been a little bit too uncompromising in terms

14:35

of particularly the high pressing. And

14:37

this time around with Giudona he was, I think,

14:40

a little bit more conscious of the fact

14:42

that you can't just constantly leave your team

14:44

exposed through high pressing. So

14:46

yeah, interesting because I think

14:48

we spent a lot of time talking about

14:51

Giudona from the attacking point of view because

14:53

they play such flamboyant football. But it does

14:55

seem as though this period, keeping

14:57

Gironi in La Liga and then making them competitive has come

14:59

down to what he's been doing out of possession. Yeah,

15:01

I think I'd agree with that and particularly with the

15:04

players that they do have. Alish Garcia, as we mentioned

15:06

a couple of times already, he's very, very good on

15:08

the ball. He's probably one of

15:10

the best kind of distributors of a football in

15:12

the league but he's also, can

15:15

be bypassed sometimes. You

15:17

know, particularly with Giudona, they miss

15:19

time. To counter press they can

15:21

be exposed with the

15:23

likes of Daily Blend who's obviously a brilliant defender

15:25

on the ball but he's not quite got that

15:27

recovery pace. Neither has David

15:29

Lopez in the middle as well. So

15:32

yeah, maybe out of necessity, Giudona and Michelle

15:34

have kind of looked at shoring that aspect

15:36

of their play up a little bit. But

15:39

there is still this, you know, if

15:41

we look at their defeats this season, particularly that one,

15:43

the Ben and Beo at Real Madrid, there was this

15:45

kind of midfield overload that they couldn't deal with and

15:47

perhaps that is the next kind

15:49

of step in Michelle's journey as a coach to

15:51

try and find that balance between overloading,

15:54

which he does time and time again. I mean, you know,

15:56

some of the formations that you see this during a team

15:58

in in terms of seven or eight

16:00

players in the final third, but then also just guarding

16:02

a little bit more against that counter attack. Yeah,

16:05

and I think the really interesting thing about

16:07

the in-possession players are the flexibility, right? I've

16:09

just got the squad list in front of

16:11

me and this all stems from what he

16:13

can do with the back line. So you've

16:15

mentioned Eric Galsay, you've mentioned Ailey Blint, you've

16:18

mentioned Miguel Gutierrez, we've got Jan Kuto

16:20

as well and Arno Martinez. And

16:23

that's just an incredible mix

16:25

of players that

16:28

you can shift around. David

16:30

Lopez even, quite a flexible player,

16:32

there's been times when in certain phases of play

16:34

defensively he'll step into the midfield. The

16:37

ability to have that sort of flexibility where you can

16:40

play daily blint as an outside centre back or as

16:42

a full back or in certain situations you can have

16:44

Gutierrez getting into the front line and then

16:47

having the players behind him to be able to

16:49

support him. So much of what is

16:52

so good about Girona under

16:54

Michel is this flexibility to be able to

16:57

set up your team in a way to

16:59

solve the problems that the opposition are

17:01

sending away, right? Yeah, 100%. It's just constant,

17:03

the rotations between these players. I mean you'll

17:05

see daily blint come into midfield from centre

17:08

back, you'll see... One

17:10

thing that's been particularly effective this season, again in

17:12

that game against Rijo that we were talking about

17:14

earlier on before was the kind of central midfielders

17:16

moving out wide because you've got Victor Szygankov on

17:18

the right who is very, very good in tight

17:20

spaces. He can come into the middle, drag players

17:22

with him and then you've got Jan Kelleidera out

17:24

on the wing swinging crosses it and no one's

17:27

really expecting that. But,

17:29

you know, Michel is always looking for those

17:31

ways to unsettle kind of opposition structures. Yeah,

17:34

the use of Miguel is probably the most

17:36

obvious example of that. He's kind of darting

17:39

all over the place, obviously he starts at left

17:41

back but in build up

17:43

you've got the three centre backs, the two kind

17:45

of holding midfielders and Miguel is right there next

17:48

to Dovbic, the striker, next to Savio and

17:51

he's just causing so many problems just being

17:53

in that position because full backs don't know

17:55

whether to follow him inside, they don't know

17:57

whether to stay with Savio and we've seen

17:59

many games this season where Savio has been

18:01

isolated precisely because Miguel Gutierrez

18:03

is there and just defenders don't know

18:06

what to do with him. And once that

18:08

happens, once Savio is isolated, we'll probably talk about him

18:10

a bit later, but he is one of the most

18:12

electric 1v1 wingers in

18:14

world football and it's overthought you really.

18:16

But yeah, it's

18:18

really interesting, really fluid. And

18:20

you know, back in October, the La Liga cameras

18:23

kind of picked up a Michelle team talk on

18:25

the pitch. And one of the

18:27

things that he was saying was, you know, keep

18:29

the ball for longer, take more touches, show personality

18:31

because they were being pressed by Savio.

18:34

And one of the quotes, I think he said was to

18:37

play street football and in terms of, you know, draw

18:39

that press in and then use your own abilities to get

18:42

out of it. And I think that's really, really striking when

18:44

you see, you know, because there are lots of flicks, lots

18:46

of sudden changes of direction, lots of bits of quick thinking

18:48

to get them out of these tight spots. And

18:51

I think it's that kind of possession or freedom,

18:53

which and that constant rotation that we just mentioned,

18:55

which is helping them to get free teams time

18:57

and time again. You mentioned that Gerena

18:59

started the season off quite and

19:02

quite a good run of form, which has

19:04

dropped off more recently. Why

19:07

do you think they dropped off? And do

19:09

you think that that flexibility plays into it?

19:11

I mean, I guess

19:13

most teams strengths can eventually

19:15

become their weaknesses on form. What

19:18

do you think prompted that drop

19:20

off? Is it just that they were over performing their numbers

19:23

a bit and they probably dropped a little bit closer to

19:25

where they should be? Or do you think there's something more

19:27

structural and tactical behind it? Yeah, I think there's definitely a

19:29

bit of other performance. You have to mention that Dothbic

19:31

the striker stop scoring, which is a

19:34

big issue because he was so central

19:36

to their output up front. Also,

19:39

I think you have to mention the psychological factor

19:41

of being beaten in the way that they were

19:43

against Real Madrid 4-0. And I

19:45

think in that game in particular, they had a

19:47

few absences in midfield. You look at the matchup,

19:50

it was Alijo Garcia trying to dictate play

19:52

and to the side of him he had

19:54

two attacking midfielders versus Real Madrid 4-0 of

19:57

Nalingam Balveli, Camo Vingas, who

19:59

are many of it. he just got completely overrun. Jan

20:02

Kautor, the full back, was left

20:04

pitching tears because Vanicius Jr. had

20:06

just, you know, running at

20:08

him time and time again. I think there was definitely a

20:10

psychological blow which, yeah, kind

20:12

of alongside that other performer started to play

20:14

its part. But yeah, I think maybe tactically

20:17

there have just been a few instances of

20:19

naivety in terms of over-committing, as we mentioned

20:21

before. I think Miguel Gutierrez was targeted in

20:23

that Real Madrid game. A lot of joy

20:26

was coming from Tony Croz playing balls in

20:28

behind him to Rodrigo in particular. And

20:31

yeah, I think teams have started to take a little bit of

20:33

inspiration from that and just be a little bit braver against Drew

20:35

and try to hit them on the brink a little bit more.

20:40

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See you. terms at

22:01

discover.com/credit card. We've

22:04

already teased this but we need

22:06

to talk a little bit about Girona's success

22:08

this season being achieved in the transfer market.

22:11

I've got the list of names in front

22:13

of me and it is remarkable, not least

22:15

because of the amount of money

22:17

that we're talking about is pittance in modern

22:19

football. None of these players costing more than

22:21

10 million euros. But

22:24

also the fact that so many of these transfers

22:27

have ended up being huge successes. So

22:29

we've got Artem Dovbic there for

22:32

7.75 million euros. You

22:35

mentioned he's started

22:37

to dry up a little bit but he's still scored

22:39

an incredible number of goals this season. Yang

22:42

El Herrera who has come through

22:44

the Manchester City Academy and

22:46

then Ivan Martine who's been an important player.

22:48

He came from VRAA for 2 million euros.

22:50

I mean it's such a small fee

22:52

that with such small fees that we're talking about

22:55

here in terms of players

22:57

you've gone on to be really important for them.

22:59

Dailyblint, Paulo Gazzaniga both coming in

23:01

free transfers and then Eric Garcia from

23:04

Barcelona and Savio, the

23:06

star of the show in many respects, both coming on

23:09

loan. So yeah, an

23:12

incredible achievement I think in terms

23:14

of just the success they've

23:16

had in the transfer market to take

23:18

them from being a team who last

23:20

season were relegation survivors to a team

23:23

this season who are challenging for the Champions League.

23:25

Yeah, for sure. You have to remember as

23:27

well that they lost a lot of players last season.

23:29

I mean, Taty Castellanos

23:31

was a striker on loan from

23:34

New York City. He

23:36

famously scored four goals against Real Madrid in a

23:38

single game last season but he went to Lazio

23:41

and they lost a lot when he left,

23:43

not just in terms of the goals but

23:45

the energy that he brings up top. Because

23:47

other than Castellanos, there's Kristian Stuani who Middlesbrough

23:49

fans might remember but he's a

23:51

bit of a club legend at Girona but he

23:53

is in his late 30s now and doesn't quite

23:55

have that same intensity. Dovbik has

23:57

come in and the great thing

23:59

about him is that... Obviously he's very very strong

24:01

in the air, I think he scored more headers

24:03

than most players in Europe this season.

24:07

Very physically dominant but also really really good

24:09

in those tight spaces. We've

24:11

seen quite a lot of Gignon this season

24:13

where they're penning opposition teams in and

24:17

even moments where Dolph Zigg

24:19

is receiving the ball in the box with two or three

24:22

defenders around him and he can hold them off, put his

24:24

foot on the ball and lay it off to an attacking

24:26

player which is quite a sight to

24:28

behold. He can do that, he can run in

24:30

behind, there was a moment against Hadletica Madrid

24:32

where he just missed actually in the second

24:34

minute I believe it was but the turn

24:37

of pace to get from the half

24:39

way line to the box in probably

24:41

five or six seconds is really

24:43

frightening. He can do a bit of everything up front, I think

24:45

he'll be a lot of

24:47

interest in him in the summer. Like

24:49

you say, Delly Blind and Garcia

24:52

both discarded really, coming towards

24:54

the end of their career.

24:57

Delly Blind in particular but in terms of

24:59

the profiles of those defenders, both who

25:01

can sit on their either side

25:03

of a back three and can just pin the opposition in

25:06

and they've both been right at the top for kind of

25:08

progressive passes this season in La Liga. Blind

25:10

is really good at just firing the ball

25:12

through the lines and finding players in those

25:14

more lucrative positions. Not

25:17

any star names though when you look at it in terms of if

25:19

you saw it at the start of the season, I don't think you'd

25:21

be really saying too much about it but in

25:24

terms of the setting and the squad build,

25:26

I think it's been pretty spot on. You

25:28

mentioned some of the players that they lost. They lost a

25:30

bunch of players who have gone on

25:32

to be uninspiring elsewhere. Santiago Bueno went

25:35

to Wolves and was a big

25:37

part of their team last season. They lost

25:39

him and now we've got Eric Garcia and

25:41

Delly Blind and no one really thinks about

25:43

him anymore. Oriel Romayu went

25:45

to Barcelona and played

25:48

an incredibly important role last season. Does

25:52

anyone miss Oriel Romayu at Girona

25:54

anymore? Probably not. And then

25:56

Rodrigo Raquel may as well be a big player this season

25:58

before and none of these I would say now

26:00

really having hit the same sorts

26:03

of heights that the players that replaced

26:05

them of hit. So really impressive to

26:07

see that sort of turnover

26:09

there. We

26:11

should also talk about some of the players

26:14

who were already there. You've mentioned Alish Garcia

26:17

a lot. He's clearly an important part

26:19

of this team. And

26:21

you mentioned at the top of the

26:23

episode that he was, I'm just

26:26

forced to the word people, he's languishing, I suppose,

26:28

around in smaller leagues around Europe before being brought

26:31

in. Why do you think he's been so successful

26:33

in his time at Girona? I

26:35

think he's just always had this technique

26:38

behind him. I actually

26:40

wrote an article for the Athletic recently

26:42

on his free kick technique, which is

26:44

very distinctive. If anybody's seen it, he

26:46

kind of follows right through with

26:48

the ball. His leg flies up into

26:50

the air, almost hits him in the face. He kind of

26:53

follows through that much. But talking to people

26:55

who have trained with him and former coaches

26:57

and stuff, they've all said immediately that he

27:00

came in when he was 10, 11, 12 to VIA and he could hit

27:03

a ball across the pitch on a sixpence

27:06

every single time. So I think he's just always had

27:08

that technique, but he's never really had

27:10

a home to be able to do it. At

27:12

City, he wasn't

27:14

really given the opportunity consistently enough. And obviously he

27:16

had to displace some amazing players to get there.

27:19

He went to ABAR in the second division

27:21

under Jose Luis Mendeliba. He

27:24

didn't quite use him in the correct way in

27:27

terms of he wanted him a bit more, what

27:30

we say in Spanish, as a yegador, someone who

27:32

arrives in the penalty area

27:34

and can sweep home those kind of...

27:36

Boxcrusher. Boxcrusher, probably a bit

27:38

more... Oh, it sounds better. Yeah.

27:42

But yeah, he saw his ball striking ability as

27:44

something to use in attack, whereas I think Michel's

27:46

seen it as something to use as a bit

27:48

more of a kind of distributor, someone

27:51

to just dictate the play and the tempo and that's

27:53

exactly what he's done. And

27:56

we should talk a little bit about Savio as well,

27:58

because Savio, as I said before, is... has been a

28:00

bit of the star of the show, has announced

28:03

that he will be at Manchester City as well,

28:05

which is your English club. Tell us a little

28:07

bit about Savio in terms of

28:09

what he offers as a skill

28:12

set and how you feel about

28:14

him being hopefully a future star for

28:16

your own English team. Yeah, excited. I

28:18

mean the first thing to say is

28:20

that he's a bit of a lesser

28:22

spotted left-footed left-winger, which is

28:25

a bit of a throwback. Although he has played

28:27

on both sides this season, right? I've seen him

28:29

playing on the right a few times as well.

28:31

Yeah, but it does give him that unpredictability because

28:33

he's so comfortable coming inside as well. I mean,

28:35

some of the times you will see him kind

28:37

of receivable on the halfway line, spin away from

28:39

his full back and dribble towards the edge of

28:41

the box. And yeah, the amount

28:44

of players he commits when he does this, because

28:46

he's so quick, you know, both

28:48

in terms of pace but also moving the ball and

28:50

manipulating it while he's running, he can take lots and

28:52

lots of players out of the game and really open

28:54

up spaces for other people, which is his main strength.

28:57

But he's also very good at, when he's on the

28:59

left, kind of just darting to the touch line and

29:01

standing at the board to the back post, that's how

29:03

many, you know, Dofbix scored countless goals and had

29:05

countless chances from that kind of move as well. Really

29:08

exciting and I think he definitely brings the energy to

29:10

his team. Yeah, I think going back to

29:12

what we're talking about in terms of flexibility as well,

29:14

when you have players like Miguel Gutierrez

29:16

and you have daily been able to fill that

29:19

wide channel, it allows Savio to be able to

29:21

come inside, even on the left, which you might

29:23

expect him to do on the right, to come

29:25

onto his stronger left foot. But

29:27

he normally plays a second striker in those scenarios

29:30

as well, so a huge amount of flexibility that

29:32

you're getting from him. But we

29:34

should tie this section to a

29:36

close and the question that we

29:38

talked about in the other

29:40

episode was, you know, we're interested in what the

29:42

career trajectory for each of the coaches that we

29:44

talked about looked like. I

29:47

suppose the interesting question with respect to

29:49

Michel is like, to what extent do

29:51

you think that this style of play

29:54

lends itself to an elite team? Which

29:56

I think is the really interesting question with a lot of

29:59

these kind of coaches. You could talk about Andoni

30:01

Arriola, hugely impressive in La Liga. The question

30:03

is always going to be to what

30:06

extent is his particularly out of possession first

30:09

focus style of play actually

30:11

match with the elite team. So I suppose with

30:13

Michelle it seems a little bit easier, right, because

30:15

a creative in

30:17

possession game is much easier to translate

30:20

to an elite side than a really

30:22

elite out of possession approach. Yeah, 100%.

30:25

I mean, straight away it's just with his demeanor,

30:27

with the way that he acts on the sidelines

30:29

with this constant tinkering of the kind of

30:31

shape and the build up shape. The

30:34

amount of times Girona kind of morph mid game and try

30:36

and find other advantages is quite

30:38

reminiscent of Arteta, Guardiola, that kind of

30:40

manager. So

30:43

yeah, in that respect, I don't think you'd be too

30:45

surprised to see him take a step up in the

30:47

years to come. But I think in the short term

30:49

at least, he has to say at Girona, he has

30:51

to finish this project because they'll almost definitely be playing

30:54

Champions League football next season, if not Europa League, which

30:56

is amazing. And I don't

30:58

think the squad will be completely picked apart in the

31:00

summer either, because as you said earlier, the

31:02

players that they did lose didn't really go

31:04

on to do much after they

31:07

left. I think a lot of the players that are

31:09

shining for Girona this season, apart from maybe Savio, are,

31:12

you know, aging slightly, not

31:14

really kind of very attractive to the bigger team. So

31:16

I think most of them will stay. And

31:19

they have this relationship with CFG. Obviously, we have

31:21

to mention that there's been rumours

31:23

of Claudio Echevedi, who's been signed by

31:25

City, who might be on loan at

31:27

Girona next season. If you've

31:29

got that kind of play coming in,

31:32

you want to work with them. And I think Michel, yeah, one

31:35

more season maybe too, see how he goes on in the

31:37

league next season, if he can balance that with European commitments

31:39

and see where we go from there. And

31:41

how do you anticipate them doing in the Champions League?

31:43

Do you think there'll be a great addition presumably to

31:45

that competition? I think there'll be good games. I

31:47

think we've seen every time that they play the big teams,

31:50

there are lots of goals. So they

31:52

can, as we mentioned before, just fix that kind

31:54

of over-ambition and really manage these games against bigger

31:56

teams remains to be seen. But I think, yeah,

31:58

I think if they can... keep a lot of the

32:00

team together and if they can keep this intensity going I think

32:03

they can definitely cause a few problems. Well

32:05

let's move on to our second manager

32:07

who is Garcia Pimiento and

32:10

again we've talked at the beginning

32:12

about how these clubs seem so

32:14

unique in their own way as

32:16

much as the manager so Lass

32:18

Palmas is a very fun team.

32:21

So tell us, as particularly the listeners you

32:24

might not know a lot about them, what Lass Palmas are

32:26

all about. Yeah they've been a

32:28

bit of a revelation this season, I mean

32:30

they've promoted after five seasons in the second tier,

32:32

they only really made a handful of signings

32:34

in the summer. Mika Manamal

32:36

was probably the big one, we'll get onto him a

32:38

bit later I think but mainly

32:40

bolstering their attacking options, nothing too

32:43

sensational. Largely the

32:45

same squad, lots of players who have been

32:47

there for a long time and

32:50

yeah they've just come and played this incredibly

32:52

distinctive brand of football to the extent that

32:54

they're breaking long standing records in La Liga

32:56

for the amount of passes that they're making,

32:58

possession, build ups all of this kind of

33:01

thing. I mean I think the one that

33:03

stood out to me was that they're

33:06

averaging 301 passes per game

33:08

in their own half which obviously points to

33:10

kind of slow considered build up but not

33:13

even the Guardiola teams in the early

33:15

2010s were reaching those kind of

33:17

numbers. It's pretty

33:20

incredible particularly for a newly promoted side

33:22

to come and play with that kind

33:24

of confidence to match these kind of

33:27

historic teams but

33:29

yeah how it's all kind

33:32

of ended up is that they're very

33:34

defensively solid but they're also not scoring too many going

33:36

the other way so I think it's very easy to

33:38

look at Lass Palmas and see that they're not scoring

33:40

too much and saying well there's not much going on

33:42

there but then when you watch them it's a completely

33:44

different story. Lass

33:47

Palmas holds a funny place in my heart because

33:49

actually the first proper pre-season

33:51

friendly that Marcelo Bielsa's

33:53

lead United played against was

33:56

against Lass Palmas at Elendrode and I was there. A

33:58

lot of people talk about the first game. of the

34:00

season which was against Stoke City as being

34:02

the moment when they had their Bealtza revelation.

34:04

I had mine a week earlier watching

34:07

Las Palmas against Leave United and being

34:09

like this is going to work, this is going

34:11

to be something good. We need to

34:13

talk about their geographic reality as well

34:16

right because Las Palmas is

34:18

the capital of Gran Canaria I believe which

34:20

is one of the Canary Islands which

34:23

is off the coast of Africa.

34:25

It's quite a long way south

34:27

of Spain mainland. What

34:31

does that aspect, the geographic aspect play

34:33

in terms of the uniqueness

34:35

of Las Palmas? Yeah I hadn't really thought about this

34:37

in terms of results but I just had a quick look

34:40

at the numbers and there's kind of an even spread

34:42

in terms of home and away results so I don't

34:44

think there's a particularly strong correlation

34:46

between them being an island team and

34:48

performing well at home but

34:51

they are very unique in terms of their

34:53

stadium is this huge kind

34:55

of Olympic style stadium it's bright yellow

34:57

it's always very sunny at Las

35:00

Palmas it's a very distinctive kind of viewing experience

35:02

and they have a bit of a rivalry of Tenerife as well in

35:04

the in the division

35:07

below and they played them actually this season in the Copa

35:09

del Rey and there were

35:11

lots of images of kind of Las Palmas fans getting

35:13

on boats and going over to Tenerife to watch the

35:15

game which was really nice

35:17

to see. Yeah it's really interesting and I've

35:19

always had this kind of fascination of teams

35:22

who on islands are the few in

35:24

Portugal in the Azores and in Madeira and things like

35:26

that how does it work I

35:28

don't think I want to play for them because it's a lot

35:30

of traveling but yeah it's quite a fun aspect. And

35:34

let's talk a little bit about Gracia Pimiento because he

35:36

is Barcelona through and through isn't he because I was

35:38

going through his Wikipedia entry it just seems

35:41

like his Wikipedia entry it's just an attempt

35:43

to write down every level of Barcelona's football

35:45

operations if he can name it he's probably

35:47

coached them I think with the with the

35:50

exception of the themenina. Barcelona

35:53

presumably his origin story

35:55

really in terms of his play style. Yeah pretty much

35:57

I mean 28 years he spent weren't

36:00

there playing and managing. He didn't

36:02

quite make it as a player but

36:04

he went very quickly into management after that

36:06

and it's just been total

36:09

immersion really in that particular way

36:11

of playing. He spoke to Coaches

36:13

Voice a couple of seasons

36:15

ago and they said that he told

36:17

them that when he was 14 that's when Johan

36:19

Cruyff came into the club and he

36:21

spoke about the complete transformation. He

36:23

was saying that 14-year-olds were playing these

36:26

positional games, Rondo was just like the

36:28

first team were and you can

36:30

imagine from 14 to 58, 59

36:33

that's a long time to be absolutely

36:35

obsessed with this kind of one way of playing

36:37

so it really does translate. It

36:41

all ended prematurely really because he

36:44

was sacked very suddenly as the

36:46

manager of Barcelona's B team a

36:48

couple of seasons after they won the UEFA

36:50

Youth League so he had a lot of success

36:52

but the message came through. He wasn't expecting it

36:54

he said he was preparing for the next season

36:57

then he got the message that

36:59

Johan La Porta no longer wanted him at the club and

37:02

he's kind of had to make his own way from

37:04

there and yeah arrived at Las Palamas

37:06

a couple of seasons ago and instantly set about kind

37:09

of instilling that philosophy and you can definitely

37:11

see it today. I

37:13

wonder what difference it makes

37:15

because he's I guess an up-and-coming manager but

37:18

as you say he's like approaching his 60s

37:20

and he spent a huge amount

37:22

of his time working in youth football as well. Do

37:24

you think that's had an impact in the

37:26

way that he's been able to get Las Palamas

37:28

playing in a different style of play? Potentially

37:31

I mean I think because he's not got this first

37:33

team experience but he does have a lot of experience

37:35

I do think he still commands the respect particularly

37:38

you know as somebody who

37:40

spent so long working in that framework people are

37:43

going to listen to him and I think that

37:45

has translated he's a very kind of calm character

37:47

you never see him get flustered in

37:49

press conferences on the sidelines he's quite dry as

37:51

well in terms of how he kind

37:54

of comes across. So yeah I think

37:56

it's definitely an interesting one where

37:58

he's this people have heard of and

38:00

he's not had a lot of time to show

38:03

himself on the big stage but he's really dedicated

38:05

his life to this kind of style. The

38:08

big difference between what Las Palmas are

38:10

doing and what Barcelona are trying to

38:13

do here on the running

38:15

order because there's a whole another question that we

38:17

could talk about but it

38:19

seems to be to do with the

38:21

intention of their possession play which I

38:24

think is interesting right because taking a

38:26

coach who's worked through the Barcelona systems

38:28

in you know over

38:31

two decades and then

38:33

moving them to a club like Las Palmas where you might not

38:35

expect them to be able to have the sorts of players to

38:37

be able to play that kind of game

38:39

but it's not just simply you know

38:41

not having having the lower-tech players to

38:43

be able to perform

38:45

on the pitch in that way but but also

38:48

in terms of their play style a very different

38:50

expectation of what constitutes success when you're trying to

38:52

stay in the league rather than trying to win

38:54

the league so yeah in short they're using possession

38:57

as a way of preventing the opposition from having

38:59

the ball and therefore as a form of defense

39:01

which is which is kind of interesting and I've

39:03

no doubt the reason why Pimienta

39:05

has risen to prominence this

39:07

season and has become you know a bit

39:09

of an interesting talking point for people who

39:12

are interested in football tactics but talk us

39:14

through what that looks like possession

39:16

as a form of defense. Yeah

39:18

it's surprisingly extreme for what the other

39:20

table says they're very solid they're very

39:22

mid table which in and of itself

39:25

is an achievement because Las Palmas haven't

39:27

been in La Liga for very

39:29

long but yeah

39:31

it might not be everybody's cup of tea but

39:33

it's kind of you know lots of players dropping

39:35

deep and to keep the ball one

39:37

of the kind of most noticeable things you'll see about

39:40

Las Palmas is these kind of overloads that they love

39:42

to create all over the pitch but

39:44

to the extent where you've got players

39:46

absolutely tearing across the pitch to

39:49

race back and to kind of give these players support

39:51

and they'll be having little kind of rondos you know

39:53

all over the pitch just to try and keep the

39:56

ball you know with Giudona

39:58

that would then lead to a quick catch.

40:00

counter-attack with Lass Palamas, it kind of leads to,

40:02

you know, keeping the ball a little bit more. They're

40:05

not as, you know, adventurous, I'd

40:07

say, once they find those superiorities, they kind of

40:09

prefer to keep the ball a little bit and

40:11

just take the sting out of every kind of

40:14

opposition attack that they can do. That

40:16

obviously comes at a cost because sometimes,

40:18

particularly against low block teams, they can

40:20

struggle. Hitafe has had some

40:22

success against him this season, who are kind of,

40:24

La Liga's notorious, kind of sit

40:27

back and defend, be direct on the counter kind of

40:29

team and they have struggled at times. Well, you mentioned there

40:31

that a big part of what they're trying to do is

40:34

build overloads and obviously when you're in possession

40:36

of the ball, you technically have an overload

40:38

because you can use your goalkeeper as an

40:40

extra player. It's unlikely that the

40:42

opposition are going to press with their goalkeeper, so

40:44

you have a plus one advantage, which you can

40:46

turn into your advantages in some way or other.

40:48

But the goalkeeper has been playing a

40:50

big role in Lass Palamas' ability to

40:53

build the ball, right, because he steps

40:55

up and forms part of that back

40:57

line. Yeah, the numbers are incredible. So,

40:59

it's Alvaro Valles as a goalkeeper, again,

41:02

came up really with Lass Palamas, not really

41:04

much of a fuss made about him before

41:06

he got promoted with him, but

41:08

he's just been the most unbelievable sweeper

41:10

keeper this season. He's taken 687 touches

41:14

outside of his own penalty area this season,

41:16

which is 400 more than the

41:19

next most adventurous goalkeeper in

41:21

La Liga. So, he's just ludicrously great in

41:23

possession. You'll often see him right up on

41:25

the halfway line, just kind of as another

41:28

man to kind of squeeze the

41:30

opposition into this kind of defensive shape. There was

41:33

a viral clip a couple of weeks ago of

41:35

him against Valencia, where he kind of chases the

41:37

ball down into the corner flag and then he

41:39

just backheels it past the striker through his legs

41:41

to his defender. It's just unbelievable.

41:43

But yeah, as you say, it allows Lass Palamas

41:45

to squeeze up. It allows them to keep

41:47

the ball in advanced areas when they're against a low block,

41:49

but it also allows them to keep the ball in

41:52

defensive areas when they're placing a high

41:54

pressing team. So, it's an important

41:57

strategy. Avo

42:00

de Vallez, we saw it actually last

42:02

weekend, he was suspended, they brought in

42:04

Adoniscande and they didn't quite look the same

42:06

in terms of that ability to keep the

42:09

ball in those areas and they were caught

42:11

out a few times. In terms of the

42:13

areas on the pitch where they're trying to

42:15

retain possession, obviously when you're building up

42:17

you're going to start the bat but I

42:20

guess the areas in which you're keeping possession of

42:22

the ball can change how risky it

42:24

is for you to keep the ball right so that's

42:26

part of the reason why a lot of elite teams

42:28

try and squeeze their opponents into the final third as

42:30

they're possessing the ball in order to just increase the

42:33

distance between the ball and their own goal, make

42:35

it harder for the opposition to struggle,

42:38

make it harder for the opposition to actually get the

42:40

ball to their goal if they do win it back.

42:44

What do we see from from Las Palmas in terms of the areas

42:47

where they're trying to keep the ball, are they trying to keep the

42:49

ball high up the field or are they as comfortable keeping it a

42:51

little bit deeper because obviously there is a little

42:53

bit more of a risk if you are going

42:55

to try and possess the ball

42:57

at the back and risk having a turnover

42:59

which can become a dangerous chance pretty quickly?

43:01

Yeah I think so if you

43:04

look at their team and how they set

43:06

up their most, their best possession players are

43:08

in defence and are in the base of

43:10

midfield so we have Mika Madamal who was

43:12

brought in from Andorra, he

43:15

absolutely obliterated the passing record

43:17

in the second division last season, I

43:19

think he beat it by about 900 passes so

43:21

he's very very comfortable on the ball. Kiliyan

43:23

Rodriguez is a midfielder, he's the most touches

43:25

and most passes in La Liga this season

43:28

so he's very heavily involved and

43:30

it kind of follows them around I think in terms of if

43:32

Las Palmas are able to get a foothold

43:35

of the ball they will move that kind

43:37

of structure a bit further forward, if they're

43:39

pen back they're happy to keep the ball

43:42

in those kind of more risky areas and

43:44

get Valles involved and play it around

43:47

in deeper areas as well so it does it does change

43:49

and it does become more risky I think when you play

43:51

against these high pressing teams but yeah

43:54

it's really interesting and you don't see

43:56

so many teams play with such risk

43:58

such extreme risk basically

44:00

just achieve control which is very interesting in

44:02

and of itself. As

44:09

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subscription to the athletic. parlour

45:26

and it does make for a pretty

45:28

interesting reading because the thing that stands out is the fact

45:30

that when it comes to the

45:32

two metrics of shot quality and chance creation

45:36

the numbers that are being pumped out for last

45:38

parlour so eight percentile

45:40

out of a hundred and obviously

45:43

and third percentile respectively so that

45:46

I mean that's obviously absolutely miniscule compared

45:49

to what you would be expecting why

45:52

do you think that they are so bad at chance

45:54

creation and I suppose

45:56

the big question that we're going to end up talking

45:59

about if we think people Mienta is

46:01

going to become scalable

46:03

to a more elite side is what

46:06

would be required for Las Palmas in

46:09

particular to start producing better

46:11

numbers in terms of the shot quality

46:13

and chance creation metrics here? Yeah,

46:15

I think there's two things there. The first one is that

46:18

they're a bit reluctant just to explode into that space.

46:20

They're a bit too cagey sometimes and a lot

46:22

of the time you will see them nick the ball

46:25

high up and think, oh, here we go, attack. And

46:27

they just kind of put their foot on the

46:29

ball, turn around and keep the ball again, which can

46:31

be a little bit frustrating sometimes to watch. But

46:34

from their point of view, I think looking

46:36

at their squads, they do lack a difference

46:39

maker in attack. They

46:41

have Alberto Mollero is probably their

46:43

most talented attacking player, but he's more of a

46:45

kind of Bernardo Silva kind of winger where he's,

46:48

you know, dropping deep, really nice kind of touches here

46:50

and there, but they don't have that player

46:52

who's going to win your games really.

46:55

Sandro Ramirez, who's played for Everton,

46:57

he's kind of main attacker, his

46:59

flashes of brilliance, but nothing consistent.

47:02

And then also in defence, they have a lot of

47:04

players who are very good on the ball, but they

47:06

don't really have that kind of defensive profile, which allows

47:08

them to play a more stretched game. You know, they've

47:10

not really got dual winners. They've not really got players

47:12

who are able to track back with pace and keep

47:14

up with big physical strikers.

47:16

So it's kind of like, it's

47:19

almost not worth stretching the game out too much

47:21

because they know that they don't really have the

47:23

players to cope with a more stretched game.

47:26

So yeah, as you say, sometimes it can be a

47:28

little bit frustrating, but I think the

47:30

next step for last panel, my son for Pimienta is

47:33

to try and get a few more attacking

47:35

players through the door who can do

47:37

things by themselves really and kind of change

47:39

games on their own. See if you can

47:41

get a bit more of a dual winner

47:43

next to Mar-a-Mole potentially. And

47:46

yeah, also deal with the fact that it's

47:48

looking likely that Vayez will leave

47:50

in the summer and try and find

47:52

a goalkeeper who can replicate his ability,

47:54

which is going to be really hard. So

47:57

yeah, I think that's the reason it's personnel based. But

48:00

I think that is definitely the next step in

48:02

Pimiento's career. Obviously

48:07

at the highest level this is the

48:09

style of football that Barcelona are looking

48:11

to be able to play so it

48:13

clearly has the potential to be an

48:15

elite team approach. I

48:17

suppose the other side of the coin

48:20

of the last question is the

48:23

question whether or not you think this is a sustainable

48:25

way of playing football as a lower half of the

48:28

table team – is it the

48:30

case that this has worked because

48:32

it's a good tactic or has it worked

48:35

because they've been lucky they've over performed

48:37

numbers and in the long run it might actually prove

48:39

to be a bit of a risky way of playing

48:41

for a team that are trying to avoid relegation at

48:43

the end of the day? Yeah definitely, all that you've

48:45

just said plus the fact that they've got very

48:48

specific players to do what they're doing. Another

48:51

thing about last panel match as well which really sticks

48:53

out is their offside numbers so we've done a lot

48:55

of talking about Aston Villa this season

48:57

and how they're leading the way for offsides

49:00

catching opponents offside all the time. Last panel

49:02

match I've actually overtaken them now in terms

49:04

of offsides caused

49:06

per game over

49:08

four which is quite a lot and

49:12

recently this high line is being caught

49:14

out a little bit so that's something

49:17

I think Bimiento actually said in his pretty much press

49:19

conference this weekend that they're going to try and end

49:21

the game with 11 men because the last two games

49:23

they had Valles sent off for

49:25

a last man tackle after the high line

49:28

was broken through but against Sevilla last

49:30

weekend it was after six minutes and

49:32

Coco was sent off after the through

49:34

ball broke the offside trap and he

49:36

was taken down so it

49:38

is very risky and they've got it right more often

49:40

than not this season but yeah

49:42

perhaps over you know particularly

49:45

next season as I said without Valles I think that would

49:47

be really interesting to see if they can continue to do

49:49

this because there is lots of

49:52

risk involved, just slight miss timing can really

49:54

undo all the hard work and

49:56

as I mentioned before Valles has been very good shot

49:58

stopping as well he's actually over-performed

50:01

is expected goals

50:03

conceded by quite a distance this season. So

50:05

I think there are a few facts to

50:07

play which will make next season really, really

50:09

interesting for Las Palmas and Pimienta and I

50:11

think he definitely will have to see if

50:14

he can introduce a bit more attacking ambition

50:16

but also if he can fix this kind

50:19

of problem which has emerged in recent weeks.

50:22

Let's talk a little bit about Pimienta's future then because

50:24

I think this is quite an interesting topic. It's

50:27

something we touched on in the previous episode

50:29

about up and coming coaches because it

50:31

seems to me there's two very specific types

50:34

of up and coming coach. One

50:36

of them is the coach who does really well

50:38

because they're out of possession first approach and they

50:40

get a team performing above their level just through

50:42

the fact that they're smart in terms of what

50:44

they do without the ball. Then

50:47

you get these sort of more idealistic coaches who

50:49

do interesting things with their team

50:51

in possession. You

50:54

can argue that they might actually

50:56

be doing this to the detriment of the teams

50:58

that they're at but it's actually really good for

51:00

their careers because they stand out. So I'm thinking

51:02

of Thiago Motto we've seen this

51:04

season, Roberto D'Serbi I

51:07

think an example of high

51:09

idealised coach who you

51:11

could argue that for Brighton some

51:13

of the implications of his tactical

51:15

approach are bad in the long

51:17

run but in terms of the

51:20

plaudits he gets for being able to get his

51:22

team to play the way they do in possession

51:24

particularly in build-up means that he's always going to

51:26

be an attractive prospect for a really

51:29

elite side. I guess Pimiento falls into

51:31

this latter category. It's a coach who

51:33

as we've said if he doesn't have

51:35

the players at Las Palmas

51:37

to work with that can make his system

51:39

work it could look very, very horrible very

51:41

quickly but I think what

51:43

we're seeing from this season is actually

51:46

Pimiento almost having the stage set

51:49

for maybe teams higher up the pyramid to have a look at

51:51

him and say if this guy can do this

51:53

with Las Palmas imagine what he could do with us with the

51:56

players that we have. So what's your anticipation

51:58

for the way that that... or boils

52:00

out in terms of Pimiento's eventual trajectory in

52:02

Korea? Yeah, no, it's a really interesting one.

52:04

And I mean, he has actually said in

52:06

the past that he wants a Barcelona job.

52:09

But whether that's changed now after the way that they've

52:11

treated him, they said it

52:13

didn't even cross his mind the last time he was asked

52:16

about it. So whether that's off the table now, I'm not

52:18

sure. But yeah, like you say,

52:20

the idea of Pimiento is really enticing, the kind

52:22

of football they play. But

52:24

there is a doubt that, you know, first and

52:26

foremost, I don't think he speaks many other languages

52:29

other than Spanish, or whether he would like

52:31

to take the leap of faith and

52:33

leave Spain would be a question. And

52:36

whether these ideas are transferable to every single team

52:38

in the division. You know, you might need a

52:40

specific kind of team to be able to play

52:42

his way. But I do think that,

52:44

you know, if you look at managers

52:47

in Spain, I think Kike Setien is a

52:49

good example of a manager who has this

52:51

really highly idealized way of playing. And sometimes

52:53

it just works. And sometimes, you know, we

52:55

saw at VAR, for example, this season

52:58

and that season, it doesn't quite click. I think

53:00

Pimiento has the potential to be that kind of

53:02

manager where it will click every now and again.

53:04

But, you know, coming towards kind of as you

53:06

said before, his 60s, I

53:08

don't think he's going to be, you

53:11

know, rolling around Europe and turning teams into a

53:13

super possession size. But I do think he will

53:15

have kind of flashes here and there of really

53:17

good management. And whether he gets his one shot

53:19

at the big team before he retires, it's

53:22

really a big question. Well, you

53:24

just mentioned Kike Setien. We're

53:26

going to just devote the last

53:29

few minutes of this podcast to

53:31

talk about another grandi of Spanish

53:33

football in Ernesto Valverde, who has

53:35

just won the first trophy

53:37

of four years for Athletic Club in Bilbao.

53:40

They won the Copa del Rey against Mallorca,

53:42

I believe it was. Now

53:46

Athletic Club in Bilbao,

53:48

a very, very interesting side. So

53:50

yeah, just talk to our listeners again about

53:53

every team and it seems to be fascinating in Spain.

53:55

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but why is

53:58

it that Athletic Club is such a unique product? That

54:00

yeah I'm sure many listeners will be

54:02

aware that transfer policy they're only allowed

54:04

to sign players with with a bus,

54:06

carrots, switches and really narrows down the

54:08

pool of players that they're able to

54:11

bring in am and makes only more

54:13

incredible lot less though so competitive off

54:15

after all these years mean that only

54:17

one of three clubs not to be

54:19

relegated from La Liga ever alongside Barcelona

54:21

Real Madrid I'm they been utterly brilliant

54:23

this season and of of as as

54:25

with Alan to they just one the

54:28

copper. They have this prolific academy. Or

54:30

atlas summer which is just. Sustain.

54:33

Them really of of the last couple of

54:35

decades which is it is rarely rarely nice

54:37

to say you know they've also just got

54:40

this. Real connection to the fans.

54:42

I mean send them as the stadium is

54:44

probably one of the most of that shit

54:46

places to them what for more than your

54:48

up regardless of the opposition. Regardless of the

54:51

time it it's always actually jam packed ready.

54:53

Good atmosphere and we saw the trove celebrations

54:55

were just unbelievable. Some of the scenes I'm

54:57

an end to stop Olaf had got this

54:59

is dynamic in the team. Has two brothers

55:01

Nico and and Yucky Williams. Both of them

55:04

play up front, both of them. Being.

55:06

Aga be the best occupied for athletic

55:08

club the season and connecting really wealth

55:10

of his of ever loving around athletic

55:12

club at the moment by do think

55:14

i deserved because. It is pretty

55:17

amazing how Bastille Day while they're doing

55:19

and it's a really nice kind of

55:21

family feel. I'm around the club minutes

55:23

just for a really nice as a

55:25

young to to few people working in

55:27

use football recently. he always just amazed

55:29

at how good their academies they took

55:31

were how many players they that she

55:33

end up pushing through each each age

55:35

group and they say it's just it's

55:37

just hands in a way more than

55:40

any other academy and them in the

55:42

world. Harassment is a necessity for that

55:44

which I supposed to be unique nature.

55:46

of their of their transfer policy makes

55:48

it makes it more likely for it

55:50

to to work. is still impressive nonetheless.

55:53

I'm. less took a know

55:55

about vote at a bank aziz had it

55:57

all along or korea he was the philosophy

55:59

assistant at Athletic Club back in the early right

56:01

at the beginning of the early the early

56:03

2000s Um, and yeah,

56:05

he's been here there and everywhere Um

56:08

stents at olympia archives a few

56:11

stents athletic club themselves um,

56:13

he was famously a Barcelona manager for a

56:15

bit and um Relatively successful

56:17

Barcelona manager all things considered but uh

56:20

didn't really seem to fit the the

56:22

Barcelona way and

56:24

obviously that period has Has

56:27

sort of influenced the way that people have

56:29

viewed him. So Um, I think

56:31

certainly most people um outside

56:33

of spain will have known him from

56:35

that period primarily What impact

56:37

do you think that that period has had

56:39

on the way that the people view valverde

56:41

as a coach? Yeah more

56:44

generally i'm I think as you said his

56:46

style was Just slightly at

56:48

odds really with what Barcelona about and it

56:50

did make every defeat um

56:52

a lot worse in terms of a

56:54

fallout afterwards because You know,

56:56

he made some bold decisions I mean the the main thing

56:58

was he kind of introduced a 442

57:00

really went when he got there and placed Neymar

57:03

in a more striking position which Obviously

57:05

very controversial because Neymar is a very talented player

57:08

and whether that's exactly what he wanted to do

57:10

I'm, not sure but yeah I think it has

57:12

influenced people because they do kind of see him

57:14

as this kind of more pragmatic manager Which he

57:16

is, but I think that kind of element of

57:18

his managerial style was Fastly

57:21

exaggerated by that time of Barcelona Yeah,

57:24

and I think a lot of people would think of valverde as

57:26

as being a a coach

57:28

who can uh instill a really

57:30

good high press into a team and that obviously

57:32

didn't happen at Barcelona, but There was reasons why

57:34

that didn't happen at Barcelona namely that he was

57:36

working with Messi and Suarez at the time which

57:38

is Again, and Neymar as well,

57:40

but which makes it much harder to do that kind of

57:42

thing, right? so um a

57:45

lot of the the Barcelona time seems to have been um

57:48

The result of various contextual

57:51

aspects of what was going on at the time Let's

57:53

talk more about then his return. I think it

57:56

is third return right to Athletic Club um

57:59

What? What have we seen from him this

58:01

season since he's been back? Yeah, it just

58:03

works. Valverde and Athletic Club and the supporters

58:05

were delighted when he came back at the

58:08

start of the season. Sorry, it

58:10

wasn't the start of the season. Yeah,

58:12

it just works. Athletic Club and Valverde,

58:15

I mean, the supporters were delighted when he

58:17

came back. And, you

58:19

know, you were mentioning that kind of

58:21

aggressive press. I think with A,

58:24

the players at their disposal and B, the

58:27

fan base being so up for every game,

58:29

it really allows and helps that

58:32

start of play to flourish at Athletic Club. And I think

58:34

that is one of the big reasons

58:36

why it just works so well. I mean, if

58:38

we look at the statistics,

58:40

say most possessions won

58:42

in the attacking third this season out of any

58:44

La Liga club. So that highlights their high press,

58:46

as we just said, most direct attacks

58:49

in La Liga this season as well. So that

58:51

count that highlights their ability to

58:53

counterattack their ability to hit quickly. And

58:56

I think that is the thing that stands out

58:58

most about this Athletic Club team is that whenever

59:00

the wingers receive a ball, they're

59:02

away. It's really, really

59:04

direct. They're really positive. They're

59:07

looking to hit the wings as much as possible and really

59:09

get around the defensive block and then and then cross it

59:11

in if they can to go to set. There has been

59:13

very good in the middle. It's

59:16

just very, very aggressive, very fun to watch,

59:18

quite thrilling. But they also

59:20

do have another side to them, which is that they

59:22

can kind of build up in this more positional, intricate

59:25

kind of way as well. I mean, they played VIA

59:27

on the weekend. They were helped by a red card

59:29

early in the second half. But you're looking at some

59:32

of the structures and there is that kind of that

59:35

two, three, five kind of formation where they're

59:37

kind of overloading the attacking

59:39

third and they're playing some nice football in the middle

59:41

as well. So that's the thing

59:43

with Anastas Valverde. He's very balanced. He

59:45

likes his out of possession aggression, but he

59:48

also likes his kind of in possession versatility

59:51

and moving players around. And I think that's really stood

59:53

out with Athletic Club because they can change their approach

59:55

whenever they need to. We've

59:57

already talked about how the Williams brothers have a good

59:59

time. really fun story on the pitch but they

1:00:01

have a really moving

1:00:03

backstory as well because obviously they

1:00:05

end up in Bilbao after having

1:00:08

emigrated from Ghana where they grew up so

1:00:10

we know about those stories but who would

1:00:12

you say are the other players here that

1:00:14

really stand out for you? Yeah

1:00:16

you say on the pronunciation I was gonna mention Julin

1:00:19

Agirithamala the goalkeeper but I passed

1:00:21

on that but I've tackled it

1:00:23

now. He played in the final

1:00:25

he was one of the heroes and as you mentioned

1:00:27

the Academy he came up giving his chance on a

1:00:29

big stage and saved a couple of penalties so that

1:00:31

was amazing but yeah the Williams

1:00:34

brothers Nico in particular I think he's

1:00:36

a superstar just I

1:00:38

saw him actually live for the first time

1:00:40

when Spain played Colombia at the

1:00:43

London Stadium he came on towards the end and just

1:00:45

the speed of his feet when

1:00:47

he starts he's kind of step over

1:00:49

and dropping the shoulder is just out

1:00:51

of this world and I mean he can cut inside and

1:00:53

he can shoot really well from the edge of the area

1:00:55

we've seen that quite a few times he's got a lot

1:00:57

of spectacular goals but yeah in terms

1:00:59

of taking players on and being able to burst into

1:01:01

the penalty area I think he's the

1:01:03

next big thing to be honest and I would

1:01:06

not be surprised to see him at you know

1:01:08

in the Premier League at a top European club

1:01:10

within the next couple of seasons Oyensanset

1:01:13

as well has been a very very good player

1:01:15

for them he kind of came through as

1:01:17

a striker but Valvedes moved him

1:01:19

a little bit deeper this season so he's been

1:01:22

linking up with the midfield and bringing

1:01:24

the ball you know receiving it from those

1:01:26

two midfielders and then giving it to Gourdoceta

1:01:28

who's a striker again another play who's come

1:01:31

from nowhere really he was playing for Amor

1:01:33

Abieta just two seasons ago in

1:01:35

the second tier and now he's scoring every

1:01:37

other game at the top of the pitch for Athletic

1:01:39

Club so lots of really fun

1:01:41

plays in there Danny Viviam the centre back

1:01:43

as well he made his debut for Spain

1:01:45

a couple of weeks ago and he's a rock

1:01:47

at the back but yeah Williams and

1:01:49

Sansa I think are the stars at the top of

1:01:52

the team along with the other Williams on the other

1:01:54

side who obviously have been there for a long time

1:01:56

now getting on a little bit but he is still

1:01:58

yeah very very important in terms of that powerful for

1:02:00

running we were talking about down the wings. Well,

1:02:02

that brings us to the end of talking about a

1:02:04

Valverde we thought it was only fair to

1:02:06

give him his flowers in this episode. And

1:02:08

I suppose when talking about the future of

1:02:10

the other coaches, there's a lot more scope

1:02:12

to talk about what their future looks like.

1:02:14

Is it the case for Valverde now that,

1:02:16

you know, he's probably, he's 60 years old,

1:02:18

I believe. So presumably he's a

1:02:21

Bilbao guy now that this is where he's gonna be. Yeah, I

1:02:23

think so. I think everyone would like to see that. Kind

1:02:26

of hope it doesn't fizzle out after the high

1:02:28

of this Coppa win because it was just so

1:02:30

extraordinary. But yeah, I don't really see any need

1:02:32

for him to leave. I don't really see any need for

1:02:34

the club to part ways with him. And I think once

1:02:36

it does come to its natural conclusion, maybe that is the

1:02:39

end of a Nest of Valverde in professional football management,

1:02:41

but we'll see. Well, Tom, thank

1:02:43

you so much for coming on today. It's been great having you on.

1:02:46

Those two coaches we began with, so Michelle

1:02:48

and Garcia Pimienta, you've written pieces on in

1:02:50

the Athletic in the Up and Coming Coaches

1:02:53

series. So if our listeners want to, they

1:02:55

should really check those pieces out. And obviously

1:02:57

there are another four pieces looking

1:02:59

at various coaches as well. So do

1:03:01

check those out. And Tom, your stuff

1:03:03

is going up on Twitter at TomHarris_.

1:03:06

Tom being spelled with an H. Thank

1:03:09

you so much for coming on. It's been great having you on. Yeah,

1:03:11

thank you. I don't normally get an opportunity to speak at

1:03:13

that length about these kind of teams. So they're

1:03:16

really great. It's been my pleasure. And next time

1:03:18

we'll talk about Antonia Real over the whole time.

1:03:30

All righty. Let's skip

1:03:32

over here. Yeah, that's okay. It's

1:03:38

Flamenco. Think I'm still playing

1:03:40

again. Have fun. Thanks.

1:03:46

We'll see you next time. Bye.