0:00

Hey there, it's Debbie. Today's episode is

0:02

a special re-release of a favorite conversation

0:04

from the archives. Unless you're

0:07

a longtime listener of the show, there's a good

0:09

chance you haven't heard this one before. And even

0:11

if you have, you just might get something completely

0:13

different from it this time around. They

0:16

get this notion of perfection starting around

0:18

third grade with those timed math tests

0:20

that they believe, oh, this

0:23

is what a good math student does. They do it quickly

0:25

and perfectly. And that is

0:27

the furthest thing from the truth. We're searching

0:29

to make students great

0:31

problem solvers. The ability to estimate when

0:34

they're correct and to persevere through something

0:36

when it's hard. Those are skills

0:38

I think all of us could agree on a

0:40

student needs. Welcome

0:44

to Tilt Parenting, a podcast featuring

0:46

interviews and conversations aimed at inspiring,

0:48

informing, and supporting parents raising differently by

0:51

our kids. I'm your host

0:53

Debbie Reber and today as we're getting

0:55

into that back-to-school time, we are

0:57

going to be talking about one subject that

0:59

can be challenging for many kids, but can

1:01

be particularly tricky for a lot of differently

1:03

wired kids. Yes, that's right.

1:06

I am talking about math. If

1:08

your child struggles in any way

1:11

with math, whether with perfectionism or

1:13

making sloppy mistakes, struggling to memorize

1:15

math facts, getting stressed out by

1:18

timed math exercises, you will

1:20

definitely get a lot out of this episode. To

1:22

break it all down for us, I

1:25

brought on to the show Adrian Meldrum,

1:27

founder of Math for Middles, a virtual

1:29

tutoring business whose coaches have training in

1:31

multi-sensory math techniques and special training that

1:34

helps them work confidently with middle school

1:36

math students who have diagnosed and undiagnosed

1:38

learning differences. Adrian has

1:40

experience working with students who struggle

1:42

with executive functioning, ADHD, dyslexia,

1:45

poor working memory, and autism. And

1:48

in our conversation, she'll explain why

1:50

certain math concepts can be challenging for

1:52

these kids and share strategies for where

1:54

to start to support the kind of

1:56

learner our child is. Before

1:59

I get to the episode, So I'm going

2:01

to say thank you to those of you

2:03

who are supporting the podcast through Patreon. Your

2:05

support is helping me pay my editor who

2:07

takes these recorded conversations and intros and app

2:09

shows, cleans them up, edits them,

2:11

tags them, and uploads them to Apple

2:13

Podcasts. This literally saves me hours of

2:16

time each week and it allows me

2:18

to focus on all the other pieces

2:20

of keeping Tilt going and supporting this

2:22

community. So if you get

2:24

a lot of value out of this podcast,

2:26

please consider joining my Patreon campaign where you

2:29

can register to back the show by making

2:31

a small monthly contribution. Literally

2:33

less than the cost of a latte at Starbucks

2:35

each month can help a lot. To

2:38

sign up, go to

2:40

patreon.com/Tilt Parenting. Thanks

2:42

so much for considering and now here is

2:45

my conversation with Adrienne. Hey

2:48

Adrienne, welcome to the podcast. Hey

2:50

Toby, it's good to be here. I'm

2:53

looking forward to this conversation. It's kind of

2:55

a different topic for us, but when we

2:57

were emailing back and forth, I was like,

2:59

this is actually super practical and I hope

3:02

will be of great benefit to the listeners.

3:04

So thank you for coming on to talk

3:06

with us about this today. Absolutely.

3:08

I'm really excited to share what I know about

3:11

it. All right, so before we

3:13

get into the meaty meat of the conversation,

3:15

just give us a little background about who

3:18

you are, the work that you do in

3:20

the world, and my favorite

3:22

question, your personal why for doing

3:24

that work? Oh, great. Yes.

3:27

So I'm Adrienne Mildrum. I'm the owner

3:29

of Math for Middles as in middle

3:31

schoolers. And we focus

3:34

on providing multi-sensory math for differently wired

3:36

children, which I love that phrase Debbie.

3:38

I'm going to use it the rest of

3:40

my life. I think it's amazing. And

3:43

we've been doing this work all online

3:45

since about 2016. But

3:48

before that, I was a math tutor privately

3:50

since about 2006. And

3:52

over that time period, I was always

3:55

really driven to find out why. Why doesn't

3:57

the student understand? And I was always looking

3:59

for different. methods and different ways

4:01

to send these middle schoolers.

4:03

And it was then

4:06

that I stumbled upon multisensory

4:08

learning through azdek.org. There's other

4:10

services out there that provide

4:12

training like making math real.

4:15

But I really liked Azdek because they

4:17

have a dyslexia spin on it. They,

4:19

you know, language is a really big

4:22

part of math and I love how

4:24

they teach it. So I've

4:26

gone through all of their training and I've been using that

4:28

with my students and we've had tremendous results

4:30

and I really love the work I do.

4:33

And so my big why

4:35

though is I'm all about finding

4:37

and seeing those unseen children in

4:39

the middle school years. So typically

4:41

a lot of my students find

4:43

me in sixth grade because that's

4:45

when it all falls apart. They

4:48

go unseen K through five and then

4:50

it just hits the wall. It falls

4:52

apart and I love it when

4:54

a family finds me and connects because

4:57

we just we make a difference. We turn it

4:59

around. If I can capture them in middle school,

5:02

math is a much less unbearable

5:05

experience. It's a better experience. They're

5:07

happier and we provide kind

5:09

of like an anchor in their life through the

5:11

rest of their schooling years. And I recently had

5:13

a student tell me she's hoping that I can

5:15

just come with her to college too. Wouldn't

5:20

that be nice? That's

5:22

what I thought. Why is

5:24

it in middle school that things tend to

5:26

fall apart? What is it about the middle

5:28

school years that's so specific to this work? Yeah,

5:31

absolutely. So K through five, what's

5:33

going on is students are building

5:35

this foundation of number sense. They're

5:38

learning everything from how to add

5:40

and subtract, multiply, divide,

5:43

how to do fractions, those kinds of things, the

5:45

place value system. And a lot of it's

5:47

more, you'll see math manipulatives in

5:49

the classroom and things like that that are going

5:51

on and they're trying to build this number sense.

5:53

And by the time they reach fifth grade, every

5:56

educator has to just assume when

5:58

they go into sixth grade that they're going to And they've got this,

6:00

they have this number sense. And

6:02

I know that is not what happened.

6:05

And so they get to sixth grade and on

6:07

top of having to change classrooms, keep

6:10

track of different expectations from various

6:12

teachers, they're going into

6:14

a sixth grade classroom, having to

6:16

learn new information. And

6:18

the teacher has to assume they know all

6:21

the basics and they can go forward teaching

6:23

the new. And the fact is,

6:25

they aren't prepared, they're not ready. And

6:27

so many of my students when they come and find me, there

6:29

are two to three grade levels behind.

6:32

And so a lot of my time

6:34

is spent filling in those gaps and

6:36

going back and giving them rich multi

6:38

sensory experiences so that the math coming

6:40

at them is easier. And

6:43

so it just tends to fall apart.

6:45

And if I can, like I said earlier, capture

6:47

them in sixth grade, things go a whole lot

6:49

better. But if we wait till

6:51

their sophomore or junior, it is a hard sell. They

6:54

are so damaged and beat up inside about

6:56

their math abilities. It's really difficult to get

6:58

in there and make a change. And so

7:00

we're pretty intense during those sixth, seventh grade

7:02

years. And then we stay on usually with

7:05

students to help them. But

7:07

as I said, that were the anchor for them. And

7:09

they know that we already understand how their brain works.

7:11

And so they rely on us to help them get

7:13

through all of the math years ahead

7:16

of them. So

7:18

I'm just kind of curious, then, what

7:20

is it that prevents the

7:23

students from learning these

7:26

skills in the elementary school years? Like it's to

7:28

be two to three grades behind, yet

7:30

they've still progressed on a grade level,

7:32

you know, matriculated to the next year.

7:35

What is it that's preventing them from coming

7:37

into sixth grade with that foundation intact? Absolutely.

7:40

So let me first correct.

7:44

Many of them are not coming in at grade level. Their

7:47

system is super broken. So what

7:49

happens is before a student can

7:51

even qualify for services, they have

7:53

to fail standardized testing at the

7:55

state level many years in a

7:57

row. Wow. Which is really unfortunate.

8:00

So they keep passing these students on

8:02

knowing so well, they don't have all

8:04

of the skills they need and

8:07

so it's super frustrating for me

8:09

because For years these students

8:11

most of them starting in second third grade.

8:13

They know they're bad at math. They know

8:16

Things aren't going well, but they're stuck

8:18

fighting the system This is the story that plays

8:20

out every time we have a new student call

8:23

Parents are telling us well for years we've been battling

8:25

the school and they won't give us the help we

8:27

need so Part of it is

8:30

it's a broken system and teachers Don't

8:32

have at their disposal the tools to

8:34

recognize what they can do to help

8:37

the student keep You know

8:39

putting in filling in in these gaps that they're having

8:42

So but some of the reasons why these

8:44

students fell behind is they're differently wired so

8:46

for like a dyslexic student um,

8:48

so with math What

8:50

ends up happening is? For

8:52

a dyslexic student. It's a word retrieval

8:54

practice actually It has really nothing to

8:56

do with math per se A

9:00

student that struggles to retrieve words and remember

9:02

those things is going to struggle to remember

9:04

their math facts And so

9:06

typically you see this popping up third

9:08

grade. They're really struggling to remember even

9:11

just basic addition math facts to multiplication

9:14

ones and that's a big deficit because

9:17

The brain is spending all this time trying to

9:19

remember because we don't really allow students to use

9:21

calculators or anything like that in younger grades And

9:23

so they're using all this mental bandwidth And

9:26

then when the teacher's trying to teach something new They're

9:29

spending time trying to remember what six

9:31

times eight is over what new information's

9:33

coming in to apply And

9:35

another thing that happens too is teachers tend

9:38

to teach the way they saw being taught

9:41

even with the with the implementation of common

9:43

core which is way more in line with

9:46

what multi-sensory math is Unless

9:48

teachers have full buy-in they're not

9:50

using math manipulatives like they should

9:52

which is the concrete part To

9:55

give those students a better number

9:57

sense. They need that sensory input to

9:59

understand and place value, you know, how

10:01

much a quantity really is. Understand

10:04

what a thousand is, what a million looks

10:06

like. They don't know. And

10:08

so it really inhibits them

10:10

to move forward. And then

10:13

if, for another example, if we have

10:15

a student who struggles with executive function

10:17

skills, keeping track of

10:19

all of the steps for doing

10:21

long division, that's really hard for them.

10:24

It's abstract, it's confusing. They're

10:27

not keeping track of the steps and they get them all

10:29

confused, and it causes a lot of

10:31

errors. And so teachers are moving

10:33

at a quicker pace and spending time in

10:36

abstract, and then our system's broken. Those are

10:38

kind of the three things that are at

10:40

play here that cause so many

10:42

problems down the line. So

10:44

I'm curious then, so before we kind of

10:46

dive deeper, you've mentioned the

10:48

term multi-sensory math a few times.

10:51

You just talked about the importance

10:53

of sensory input using math manipulatives.

10:55

So can you explain that

10:57

further for people who may not be familiar

10:59

with what that is, what

11:02

multi-sensory math is? Absolutely.

11:04

So during the 90s, they were doing a

11:06

lot of research about how the brain learns

11:08

math. So in the 80s, it was the

11:10

reading wars, in the 90s it was math

11:13

wars. And they learned that

11:15

the brain learns math best when we start

11:17

with the concrete. So that's stuff we can

11:19

touch. And then we moved

11:21

to representational and that's images. And

11:23

then we moved to the abstract, which is

11:26

just numbers. And you and I learned math

11:28

mostly abstract, right? I can't think

11:30

of a time that I remember playing with

11:32

manipulatives at school. It was always just numbers

11:35

on the page. And so

11:37

that's part of it is we systematically moved

11:39

through those and that's in line with the

11:41

universal design for learning. I don't know if

11:43

you've ever heard of that, it's called UDL.

11:46

And so these are the hallmarks of

11:48

what makes the multi-sensory experience so rich.

11:51

It also falls in line with the

11:53

OG method for reading with

11:56

a visual auditory kinesthetic, they

11:58

go together. And so that's the phrase. work we

12:00

use at Math for Middles with students is we

12:02

always start with the concrete. We

12:05

mail things to our students and they work with

12:07

those items in real time. We all

12:09

have the same things. And then we

12:11

move to just images for a long time and you

12:13

would be amazed that my students will

12:15

often do really, really well with those first two. And

12:18

then once we get to the abstract, it

12:20

gets really hard. And so it's

12:22

a really important thing. And so multi-sensory

12:25

math instruction is appropriate for all students.

12:27

Every student can benefit from learning this

12:29

way. But it's essential for some, it's

12:32

essential for those kids who struggle to

12:34

read, who maybe have like a low

12:36

working memory issue. Even autistic

12:38

students can benefit from it, kids

12:41

with ADD. Those kinds

12:43

of children really need those multi-sensory

12:45

inputs into their mathematical side of their

12:48

brain in order to do well in

12:50

school. So can

12:52

you give like a concrete

12:54

example of a math concept

12:57

and what it would look like in

12:59

that concrete approach, a representative approach

13:02

and the abstract approach? Just so

13:04

we make sure that we're fully tracking

13:07

your description of that process. Yeah,

13:09

absolutely. So I'm going to start with something really

13:11

basic. So let's say it's two times five. So

13:14

for the concrete step, you could

13:16

use counting bears, you could use

13:19

Skittles, M&Ms, anything like that.

13:22

And you're making either two groups

13:24

of five, or you're making

13:26

five groups of two. And the students

13:29

read it with their hands that two times five

13:31

is 10. And so

13:33

they can visually see how much that is,

13:35

what is that quantity? But as the

13:37

numbers get bigger, using a concrete

13:39

method there would be really difficult, right? If

13:41

I was doing 100 times two, it

13:44

could get really out of control fast. And

13:47

so that's where place value blocks come

13:49

in to play. If you're in a

13:51

traditional school, you've seen teachers using these.

13:54

And they'll do area multiplication where

13:56

the student is building down one

13:58

side, you know, 10 and a

14:01

2 and then you know across the

14:03

top and so they're building out

14:05

those things and if you go to my

14:07

Instagram account you can see these visuals I

14:09

know it's kind of hard when you're listening

14:11

auditorily if you go to Instagram I post

14:13

pictures like this so you can see what

14:15

the concrete looks like. So

14:18

back to our 2 times 5 example from

14:20

there if I'm drawing it I'm drawing an

14:22

area model of 2 and

14:24

5 and it's a it's a rectangle it's

14:26

short on one side 2 and 5 over

14:28

and they

14:30

can see if we were doing on a graph

14:33

paper how many squares are on the inside and

14:35

so we use it that way with the representational and

14:38

then the abstract is just the numbers 2 times 5.

14:41

So if you think about back when we were in

14:43

school we're learning these math facts we all did what?

14:45

Flashcards. And

14:47

it was just 2 times 5 and we had

14:50

no other visual cue to help

14:52

us remember what that math fact was. And

14:55

so that's why flashcard rote memorization really

14:57

can fall apart for students like these

14:59

because they don't have a number

15:01

visual in their mind to help

15:04

them remember what that math fact is. And so

15:06

when we teach math facts we're doing lots

15:08

of hands-on things we're doing things with dice

15:11

and dominoes beads and

15:13

strings place value blocks we're doing

15:15

lots of different ways to put that input inside

15:17

of their brain so that they can remember

15:19

the quantity quicker for the

15:22

abstract down the line. Super

15:24

interesting. Okay thank you for doing that. So

15:27

you talked a little bit about some

15:29

of the reasons why differently

15:31

wired kids can struggle so much

15:33

with math specifically so you talked

15:35

about kids with learning

15:38

differences like dyslexia and then also

15:40

the executive functioning which I hadn't

15:42

thought about that before but it

15:44

makes total sense there could potentially

15:47

be challenges and remembering the steps.

15:49

I'm wondering what are

15:51

some other common challenges that

15:53

you see differently wired kids have

15:56

when it comes to approaching their math.

15:59

Oh absolutely. So one thing

16:01

that comes to my mind is anxiety. Even

16:04

if you have a kid who doesn't

16:06

necessarily have any other learning disability, but

16:08

they're an anxiety type kid, I have

16:11

one with generalized anxiety. And so it

16:13

can really make learning in general hard

16:15

because they want to be perfect. And

16:17

if math is even a little bit

16:19

difficult, the anxiety sets in.

16:21

And so multisensory can

16:24

give that student, like

16:26

I said, the input that they need, something

16:28

they can rely on, they can physically touch

16:30

to really lower that anxiety.

16:32

And there's other things that you can do

16:35

too that's multisensory friendly. And

16:37

some of these things I'll talk about later,

16:39

but you could put fewer problems on a

16:41

page. That limits overwhelm. I know my son

16:43

melts down when he gets handed a math

16:45

pack that has 10 pages

16:48

of problems. It's

16:50

too much. And so what I do is I rip

16:52

it apart and hand him one page

16:54

and he can do that page. And then we take

16:56

a little break and then we pull off another one

16:59

and I hand him that page. And

17:01

so it's really scaffolding and breaking it down

17:03

slowly to get the

17:05

work done and prevent any anxiety

17:07

and overwhelm. And even anxiety

17:10

obviously can interrupt the testing process.

17:13

I have students that have other learning

17:15

disabilities and anxiety and it really creates

17:17

a giant mess for them so

17:20

much as they're having a physical reaction. They're throwing

17:22

up the night before a test. They

17:24

have headaches. I don't know

17:26

how these kids do it at school and

17:29

they're so stressed out. But when

17:32

we have some special things in place

17:34

in their IEPs, their 504s, like unlimited

17:36

time for tests, these students can perform

17:38

if they know there's no

17:41

limit to how long they can take to

17:43

finish this test. They can do it if

17:45

we remove that barrier of time. If

17:47

they can have some sort of graphic organizer

17:50

to help them remember the steps so that

17:52

they're not having to rely on that retrieval.

17:55

It's just there to help them. Those kinds of

17:57

things really limit anxiety and those are the things

17:59

we do. at Math for Middles. And

18:02

then I think too, maybe some parents

18:04

might have heard the phrase dyscalculia or

18:06

dyscalculia, depending on where you live. Yeah,

18:10

I think often a lot of

18:12

students are misdiagnosed actually, because to

18:14

be truly dyscalculia, you have

18:17

struggles with a sense of

18:19

time and grasping money and directionality, and

18:22

those things affect everyday life. Like this

18:24

student really struggles to go to the

18:26

store and pay something or doesn't

18:29

really know when they should get ready for some

18:31

event that's maybe an afternoon. And so they might

18:33

get up really early and get ready when they

18:36

don't need to. And even

18:38

think about driving. Driving's a very directional,

18:40

heavy activity. And so driving could be

18:42

really hard for students like this. Often

18:45

what gets in the way of a student doing

18:47

better is their working memory, their executive

18:49

function, and their ability to

18:52

process language. And so it actually

18:54

is pretty rare to be diagnosed

18:56

with dyscalculia, but those

18:59

other learning disabilities really have more

19:01

play in your ability to do

19:03

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there, it's Debbie. I love making

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tillparenting.com/club. That's tillparenting.com/club. I

22:02

hope to see you on the inside. So

22:05

I have a lot of questions and yeah,

22:07

well, I'm thinking a lot of these are

22:09

just things I personally want to know. So

22:11

I'm hoping that they're things my listeners would ask

22:14

you if they were sitting in this chair

22:16

as well. I'm curious about

22:18

you talked about

22:20

math facts. I will say that

22:22

was something that we really struggled

22:25

with for years. I

22:28

had this idea in my head that you must

22:30

know your math facts, like you will learn this.

22:33

And then it was creating so much stress that

22:36

finally I was like, you know what, here it is.

22:39

Let's put it up on the wall. You refer to this when

22:41

you need to. So

22:43

things like that, or you talked about

22:46

the retrieval, like having the steps written

22:48

out as an accommodation. You can ask

22:50

for an IEP, the steps written out

22:52

for long division as an example. I'm

22:56

just curious your professional thoughts

22:58

on is it okay to

23:00

use those things? Like, is it necessary that

23:03

all kids memorize math facts? Is it

23:05

necessary that all kids get to a

23:07

point where they know in their head

23:10

what the steps are? Is it okay

23:12

to rely on these other external reminders?

23:15

I love that question. Yeah. Yeah,

23:18

because we were raised so differently, right?

23:21

I think it's okay. Only always

23:23

the goal will be for them to do

23:26

it independently. But that takes time

23:28

and it can take a lot of time

23:30

and they may never get there for all

23:32

of the math facts. They may get there

23:34

for 80% of them, but there might be

23:36

some that just always trip them up. And

23:38

so having those resources available

23:40

to them, I think is a good

23:42

thing. The reality is when Asher is

23:44

an adult, right, he's going to have a calculator

23:47

in his pocket. So he's going to

23:49

use that. And that's okay with me. So

23:51

we spend time teaching calculator skills because

23:53

the way you enter it in also

23:56

makes a difference. And so

23:58

I think things like that are helpful. It's

24:00

like, to me, it's almost like

24:03

if a student had a

24:05

hard time seeing and I'm like, no, you

24:07

can't have glasses, you know? So

24:11

they really need those support

24:13

items to help them lower

24:15

the anxiety and rely on

24:17

what they do know until they have a little

24:19

more confidence. But it's okay for students to have

24:21

those things. Graphic

24:23

organizers, I can see a teacher's hesitancy

24:26

to allow it, but many will allow

24:28

a math fact chart, you know, with

24:31

up to 10 as the math fact

24:33

on each side. And

24:35

that's just fine, you know? If the student knows how

24:37

to use it, it's okay. They're okay with

24:39

something like that. They might be

24:41

a little more resistant in the higher levels

24:43

of math, but I always encourage parents to

24:46

ask for it. It doesn't hurt. Let's say

24:48

it's like factoring a polynomial. They

24:50

might be resistant to that. But

24:53

my graphic organizer I share

24:55

with families, the student would

24:57

have to know how to use it. And

24:59

it just walks them through their thinking. I'm not telling them

25:01

exactly how to do it. They have to know the

25:03

language. They have to know what a coefficient is. They

25:06

have to know what terms are. So I had

25:08

to have done a good job teaching those things

25:10

for that tool to be effective. And so I

25:13

don't feel like it hurts the student. It only

25:15

benefits them. And I also

25:17

think it's an empowering thing. It teaches the

25:19

student to speak up for what they need.

25:21

And we as adults, we could all learn

25:23

a lesson from that, right? We

25:25

all need to be able to speak up for what

25:27

we truly need. And having these tools

25:29

available to them gives them a sense

25:31

of empowerment, in my opinion. Yeah,

25:34

I love that. And I'm

25:36

reminded of a TED talk I watched

25:38

a few years ago. And I

25:41

have the worst memory. I don't remember the

25:43

person's name. I have no details for you.

25:45

And I will find it and share it

25:47

on the show notes page. But it

25:50

was from a math instructor who taught, I don't

25:52

know if it was middle school or high school,

25:54

level students. But the gist

25:56

of the talk was that the goal isn't

25:59

for our kids. kids to be able to

26:01

perfectly answer a question, but rather how to

26:03

look at a problem and know how to

26:05

approach it. And I'm, I

26:07

don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but it was more

26:09

of being able to

26:12

understand how to solve something

26:14

as opposed to following

26:16

these exact steps per instruction. But it's

26:19

that looking at something and understanding it.

26:21

Would you agree with that or what

26:23

are your thoughts on that? Absolutely.

26:27

Being able to look at something and reason through

26:30

their approach and the answer, is

26:32

that correct? And they use estimation,

26:34

right? Is that about right?

26:37

And that's a really powerful skill to have

26:39

in your back pocket. Joan

26:41

Bowler is a PhD professor. I

26:44

think at Stanford, she's

26:46

going to be mad if I don't remember, but

26:48

anyway, she's great. She talks about how we have

26:50

this crazy notion, like you said, that if you

26:52

do math, you should be doing it with precision

26:55

and speed. And that is so

26:57

far from the truth. Most mathematicians

27:00

are slow and laborious and make

27:02

mistakes. And so we need

27:04

to instill in our kids, it's okay to make

27:06

mistakes. It's okay to be slow. And

27:08

it's okay to need to write everything out. We do

27:10

not need to do it in our heads. And so

27:12

I'm constantly saying these things to my students. They're watching

27:14

me make mistakes. They love to call it

27:17

out on me. Recently

27:19

I was doing multiples of two with a student

27:21

and suddenly my brain switched to three in the

27:23

middle. I don't know what happened. And

27:27

it was embarrassing, but we both giggled and laughed about

27:29

it. And it just

27:31

relieves a lot of pressure to be

27:33

perfect. And they get this notion of

27:35

perfection starting around third grade with those

27:37

timed math tests that they believe, oh,

27:40

this is what a good math student does. They do it

27:42

quickly and perfectly. And that

27:44

is the furthest thing from the truth. We're

27:46

searching to make students great

27:49

problem solvers. The ability to

27:51

estimate when they're correct and to persevere through

27:53

something when it's hard. And those

27:55

are skills I think all of us could agree on

27:57

a student needs. My

28:00

question for you then is what about kids,

28:02

especially gifted kids who fancy themselves quite

28:07

the math whizzes, and many of them are,

28:10

I'm quite certain, but who have this

28:12

idea in their head that they should

28:14

be able to do everything in their

28:16

head, that they do need to be

28:18

fast, that writing things out

28:20

is for weak people or whatever

28:22

is going on in their minds, but I

28:24

need to be able to do this in my head

28:26

and quickly, and then consequently

28:29

maybe are making sloppy mistakes, but

28:31

how do you help a student

28:33

reframe their thinking when

28:35

they're so attached to that idea

28:37

that doing things in their

28:40

head is a sign of their intelligence?

28:43

For me, it's all about

28:45

being a good example of that. So

28:49

often I think some of that comes from parents too.

28:52

So you have to be really careful, parents, about what

28:54

you're showing your kids and what you're expecting from

28:56

them, and so they might get that

28:58

notion that you're talking about that it needs to be all

29:00

in their head and fast and with precision. And

29:03

so students that are like that, I

29:05

try to get them to take a

29:07

step back, show me what your thinking is. I'm impressed, you

29:09

can do it in your head, that's really cool. You

29:12

need to show me though, and that's an important skill

29:14

you're gonna have to be able to do out in

29:16

the workplace. You're gonna have to show

29:18

people your thinking because not everyone in the room

29:20

is gonna follow you. And

29:22

also if you force your students that

29:24

are gifted to go backwards and show

29:26

concretely, let's say fraction division is one

29:29

that makes kids fall apart actually. Because

29:32

they're relying on the procedure which

29:34

is you keep

29:36

the first fraction, you change

29:38

it from division to multiplication and you flip

29:41

the last fraction, right? That's a really easy

29:43

procedure for them and they remember it. But

29:45

if I asked them to do it concretely

29:48

with a manipulative in front of them,

29:50

they would not be able to do it most likely.

29:53

That too is a humbling experience. Sure

29:55

you have this procedure, that's great, but

29:57

can you explain the why to someone

29:59

else? And so that's

30:01

a powerful thing too. And I think

30:03

it's important to talk to kids about

30:06

understanding the why. Why are we doing

30:08

this today? A lot of times in

30:10

my lessons we'll talk about that. Why

30:12

am I talking to you today about

30:14

adding two different fractions with different denominators?

30:17

When would we apply this and really get

30:19

into the why? I think it's an important question

30:22

to explore students and

30:24

helps them to really think deeply, which we

30:26

want for our gifted kids to think deeply.

30:30

Okay, so you totally set me

30:32

up for this next question. Nicely

30:34

done. So again, bringing

30:37

it back to me. I am no

30:40

longer Asher's math teacher. I will just say that right

30:42

now. It was creating a lot

30:44

of stress and I was not

30:46

keeping up with the math. So I've

30:48

handed that off to my husband who's

30:50

rocking it as a math teacher. But

30:53

in the last year that I was

30:55

doing it, one of the things we

30:57

kept coming up against is me. We

31:00

were working from a book. We were using Singapore

31:03

math and I was teaching

31:05

it the way that I was

31:07

instructed to teach it. And often Asher

31:10

would have his own way, like his own way.

31:12

And there was a lot of conflict

31:15

happening and the disconnect between those two.

31:17

And a friend of mine

31:19

who's an educator had said, listen,

31:22

it's great for him to have his own way. Ask him

31:25

to explain it to you as long as he

31:27

can explain his process and it works consistently.

31:31

That's great. And so I'm wondering, what are your

31:33

thoughts on that? Is it okay for

31:35

our kids to find their own

31:37

way? Or do you feel that there is

31:40

value in understanding it through

31:43

many different modalities? I

31:46

completely agree with your friend. I

31:48

celebrate my students when they have a really wonky

31:50

way of coming up with what six times eight

31:52

is. And what they

31:55

might do is they go higher, you know, up

31:57

to 60 and then they have all these tricks

31:59

to go back. down until they can figure out

32:01

what six times eight is. I celebrate

32:03

that. That's great. That shows me that

32:05

you have multiple ways of arriving

32:07

at the answer. But with that,

32:10

I agree. If Asher can explain it, that's

32:12

perfect. But I also think he needs to

32:14

hear your side of it. Why we do

32:16

it this way? And often I

32:18

talk about efficiency. This is more efficient

32:20

in the long run. This is the

32:22

standard way that most people will understand

32:25

it. So if you can understand and

32:27

know how to do this way too,

32:29

hats off to you. That's amazing. And

32:32

so going back to that why again,

32:34

especially autism students, they have to know

32:36

why. It's going to drive them crazy.

32:38

Don't ask me to do this really

32:40

crazy way unless I understand

32:42

the why. And so if

32:44

we can tie that back into the

32:47

standard way, it's more efficient. I think it

32:49

helps a lot of students understand why you're

32:51

asking them to do that. Okay,

32:53

great. Thank you for that

32:55

answer. Yeah. And so I want to

32:57

talk a little bit more about the IEP.

33:00

So you talked about some of the things

33:02

that parents could advocate

33:04

for, including unlimited time. I

33:06

know time test can be

33:08

a nightmare for so many

33:10

students and doesn't reflect their

33:12

ability at all. But it seems to be

33:14

especially in the earlier elementary

33:16

school years is just what you

33:19

do, right? Math drills, math facts,

33:21

even some of the online

33:23

programs that students are asked to do

33:25

at home to supplement often

33:27

have a time component to it. So

33:30

what are some of the other things

33:32

that parents can be thinking about creatively

33:34

when they're trying to get support

33:37

written into their child's IEP or

33:39

504? Sure. A couple

33:42

different things. I think I mentioned graphic organizers

33:44

would be a great one to ask for

33:46

that they can have it out during a

33:49

test during, you know, a quiz, something like

33:51

that, anytime that there's maybe

33:53

a more time component to it, because

33:56

it would support them in remembering so

33:58

graphic organizers. is a good one. Calculators,

34:02

I'm just kind of running through the list

34:04

in my head. Another really important one that

34:06

I think is a little bit

34:08

hard to get, but if you can get a

34:10

school to agree to it, it will make a

34:13

big difference, which is more space on the paper.

34:15

So ample space for work. So

34:17

instead of having 32 problems on

34:19

one page, it's four problems

34:21

per page, which just sounds crazy, right?

34:24

Oh, all the copies, that's too much.

34:26

But these students that struggle

34:29

with math, most of them have really

34:31

sloppy handwriting. So having that ample space to

34:33

write and show their work is going to

34:35

be really helpful for them. And a lot

34:38

of errors are made from having to take

34:40

a problem from the paper and transfer it

34:42

to a different piece of paper. Even

34:45

that process of copying from one

34:47

page to another, errors can be

34:49

made. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. And

34:51

so if we can ask for

34:53

fewer problems on the page for

34:56

tests and homework, and even reduced

34:58

homework, instead of assigning 52 problems

35:01

in the middle school, let's do

35:03

15 instead. And that typically helps

35:05

students to limit the overwhelm. Because

35:07

me as the tutor, my goal

35:09

is to get them to really

35:11

understand why we're doing

35:14

this, how we can do it more

35:16

efficiently. And so we're spending a lot

35:18

of time doing that instead of mindlessly

35:20

going through these exercises, they're

35:23

not retaining as much. And so if you

35:25

can ask for reduced problems, that really, really

35:27

helps. We'll be right back after

35:29

this quick break. Feel

35:32

like you're the martyr in your family. You're

35:34

not alone. Hey,

35:37

this is Joanne and Bri and we're

35:39

from the No Guilt Mom podcast. Bri,

35:41

we talked to a lot of moms.

35:43

Yeah, we sure do. And if you're

35:45

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35:47

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35:49

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of doing everything for everyone and don't

35:55

know how to change it, we

35:58

can help you become a No Guilt mom. We're

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Check out Edit Your Life wherever you enjoy

37:23

your podcasts. Other

37:26

things you could ask for would be

37:29

notes. You could ask if

37:31

this is a long shot too, but it doesn't hurt to

37:33

ask if the student can have

37:36

access to a classmate's notes, meaning they copy

37:38

them and the teacher gets them to the

37:40

student. So there's a little bit of,

37:43

you have to be careful there as far

37:45

as like the student notes that you're copying,

37:47

they need to not know it's for your

37:49

child kind of thing. The teacher has to

37:51

be totally committed to trying

37:53

to keep that anonymous. So

37:55

that your student isn't embarrassed by

37:58

this because if you're has

38:01

dysgraphia or really struggles with writing or it's

38:03

really sloppy, it is unlikely they're gonna take

38:05

notes but they really needed notes so

38:07

they can remember what the teacher said. So

38:09

that's something you could do. Another thing you

38:11

could ask for is to be able to

38:13

record the lessons what the teacher's saying which

38:16

is a really far stretch but it doesn't hurt

38:18

to ask. That's always my mantra is it doesn't

38:20

hurt to ask. What's more so that can happen?

38:23

They say no, you know? And

38:25

we'll find a different way to get your student

38:27

the help that they need. Of course you can

38:29

use a calculator thing but like I said unless

38:32

they understand how to use a calculator it's not going

38:34

to really benefit them that much but for some kids

38:36

just having it there to be able to write in

38:38

six times eight is really helpful.

38:41

And then you can ask for a Mass Fact Chart, a

38:44

quiet place to take the test and

38:46

maybe it's out in the hallway even

38:49

away from distractions. Some students get really panicked just

38:51

by seeing other students walk up front to turn

38:54

in their test. So being out

38:56

in the hallway and being away from that

38:58

stimulus of someone moving next to you can

39:00

really help with focus. And so those are

39:02

some of the things that we we

39:04

ask for. The last one I'll mention is

39:07

ability to use. There's this

39:09

app called Mod Math. I hope I'm saying

39:11

it right. It's for kids

39:14

who really struggle with the writing part or

39:16

lining up the columns by place value. Those

39:18

kinds of things you click into

39:20

it on your iPad and it's like a grid

39:22

and you can type in the numbers. And

39:24

so that speeds up the processing too

39:27

because they're not having to spend time

39:29

writing these numbers. And for some kids

39:31

reversals are still hard, right? They still

39:33

inverse things or they write multiply

39:35

instead of add. And

39:37

so those kinds of errors typically can

39:40

go away just by using this iPad.

39:43

Wow, so many good ideas and

39:45

interesting ones like the one about

39:48

giving more space. Like that

39:50

just seems so simple and

39:52

doable and of course. Yeah,

39:55

because yeah the writing can be all

39:57

over the place and even like child

40:00

who's struggling with sensory input or just

40:02

might be overwhelmed by all

40:05

the numbers on the page, just having that white

40:07

space is probably very calming too. Yeah.

40:09

Another interesting idea too is to instead

40:11

have it copied on white paper, you

40:14

could pick pastels. There's some research about

40:16

that too. So these are

40:18

like little easy things you can implement that

40:20

aren't too hard for a teacher to do.

40:23

If you get pushed back on the four

40:25

problems per page, you can definitely offer as

40:27

a parent to help with that. So if

40:30

you'll email me the homework assignment, I'll make sure I

40:32

type it up so that my

40:34

student can do that or offer to help in

40:36

any way to make it the job easier for

40:38

the teacher, things will go a lot better. Yeah,

40:41

that's great advice. I just wanted

40:44

to quickly ask about the homework

40:46

and the more drills. Now

40:49

that we're homeschooling, so Ashford

40:51

doesn't have math homework. The math is

40:53

done in class, but when he was

40:55

in school, there was a lot of

40:57

worksheets coming home and just so many

41:00

problems. What's your take on that? I

41:03

know that repetition is the key to mastery. I

41:05

get that, but at a certain point, is it

41:07

too much? So what do you say about that?

41:10

Oh, absolutely. We know

41:12

there's research that homework is useless,

41:14

grades K through five at least, even sixth grade,

41:17

I would say. And so

41:19

here where I live, we've seen reduced homework,

41:21

but before that really came into play as

41:24

a parent of a kid with this anxiousness.

41:26

I have one that has executive function issues,

41:28

so task initiation was really hard for him.

41:31

I had no problem going back to the school and

41:34

saying, we're not going to do all this. We're

41:37

not going to do this 10 page packet with

41:39

32 problems per page. I'm sorry. I realize

41:41

in your mind, you're thinking, we can just do

41:44

a page a day. It's not going

41:46

to work for him. So teachers

41:49

sometimes don't like that. And

41:51

teachers may give you flack for

41:53

that or treat your child differently,

41:55

but I think it's inappropriate to

41:57

push that much repetition on a student.

42:00

Especially like for a dyslexic student, if we

42:02

can really drill down the why and how

42:04

to do it, they can

42:07

master that and draw on it as much

42:09

as they want. But if we beat them

42:11

down with repetition, it just takes any joy

42:13

out of it. And

42:16

they're not going to be as willing to access what

42:18

they do know how to do. So I'm

42:21

all for reduced homework. I

42:23

realize that the homeschool, you're probably just

42:25

relying on what you remember doing. I

42:28

would say fewer problems is just a good rule

42:30

overall. And if your student's showing really

42:34

good proficiency, maybe

42:36

they don't have a learning disability, but

42:38

they're showing proficiency with that topic, I don't

42:40

think you should drill it in. Yeah,

42:43

that's the answer. Yeah, yeah.

42:46

You can go and revisit it, see if they're retaining

42:48

it. Four weeks down the line, go back and see

42:50

if they're remembering it. And if they

42:52

are, then you're good. It's gold. Keep

42:54

going. Don't beat them over the head with

42:56

that. I love that.

42:58

Okay, good. So I just,

43:02

and I want to be cognizant of the time

43:04

here, but just quickly, what about, you know,

43:07

what I hear from a lot of parents and friends

43:09

is just like the math homework

43:11

where the child is really frustrated in

43:13

the moment. Like, I don't know if

43:16

that's something that the work that you do

43:18

with families entails is just like helping parents

43:20

know how to work through that sense

43:23

of stuckness in the moment with a concept

43:25

that's not resonating, or maybe the child's getting

43:27

really upset and the parent is getting frustrated.

43:29

Like, do you have any advice for those

43:32

types of circumstances? Oh,

43:34

absolutely. I have, anytime someone

43:36

brings this up to me, I always think

43:38

of this cartoon by Adrienne Hedger. I

43:41

don't know if you know her, she's Hedger cartoons. She's

43:43

hilarious. She's got

43:45

several funny homework ones, but just,

43:47

you know, about my arms are broken,

43:49

I can't do this math, you know,

43:52

or they're screaming and crying and you

43:54

end up wasting three hours waiting for

43:56

the tantrum to stop. So I

43:58

hear you. I've been there. I've done that.

44:00

I've watched my child burn holes

44:02

through paper, erasing things. Just, you

44:05

know, it's hard. First and

44:07

foremost, you have to accept that you can't

44:09

change what your child's going through, right? They're

44:11

having a physical sensation, right? Fight or flight.

44:13

Math is threatening my life right now, and

44:15

I hate it. I hate its guts, and

44:17

I'm going to run away from it. We

44:20

have to remember too that all learnings

44:22

process emotionally first. So if

44:24

you come in hot and heavy like, hey, we're

44:26

going to get in here, we're going to get

44:28

this done, they're going to get a lot of

44:30

resistance because they're feeling threatened already, and

44:33

your intensity doesn't help

44:35

the situation. And so you got

44:37

to keep yourself calm and neutral.

44:40

And Michelle Eichard, she

44:42

wrote this book called, oh gosh, the

44:44

name's escaping me on the spot. I'll

44:47

think of it, but she talks about

44:50

the neutral face. You, when

44:52

you're 12, you have this

44:54

inability of reading facial expressions correctly. It's

44:56

all gone because the front part of

44:58

your brain is under construction. So they're

45:01

looking at you and your

45:04

curiosity or frustration with the problem

45:06

with the problem, not the child comes through

45:08

and your child thinks they're angry at me.

45:11

They hate my guts. And

45:13

so they're emotionally processing all this

45:15

information and homework just explodes on

45:17

you because you were seriously curious

45:19

about how to solve this problem. Or why

45:22

did the teacher pick this way? I'm not

45:24

really sure. So try to

45:26

keep your face neutral when you're

45:28

working alongside with your child. So

45:30

those are things that all involve you. You're a

45:32

big part of the drama actually. So

45:35

you got to keep yourself in the case with

45:37

everything, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It is. It's

45:39

really hard. I'm not telling you it's easy. It's

45:41

hard to do. And there will

45:43

be times too where I'll point out to my son,

45:45

look at my face. Do you really think I'm feeling

45:47

angry? No. And

45:52

I'll say, right now, I'm feeling

45:54

blank. I'm feeling frustrated too because I

45:57

don't remember how to do this, whatever.

45:59

So... So a lot of it

46:01

has to do with you. So going back

46:03

to it's emotionally processed. We need to try

46:06

to do something to, I don't

46:09

know, make the mood lighter. So I always love

46:11

starting with some math fact practice or just something

46:13

easy to do, something they already know how to

46:15

do. Just to get over that

46:18

initial resistance that it's time to do math. And

46:20

so all of my students, we

46:22

do this game called Island Conquer and

46:24

you roll some dice and you do

46:26

some area multiplication. They love that. It's

46:28

rid of that resistance. It makes them

46:30

calmer. And then we do the

46:32

math. If I don't spend time doing that, usually

46:34

the session's a lot harder because I rushed them

46:36

into it. And so they need that little

46:39

bit of warmup. So that's something easy you could

46:41

do to make homework a little bit better. And

46:43

I have a link for that too, if you

46:45

want some more ideas on things you could do

46:47

to warm up the brain to do math that

46:50

I should share with you. So once you've

46:52

got those going on, you also need

46:54

to try to limit what's going on environmentally

46:56

around you. We are hardwired

46:58

to, like we're on the plane suite.

47:00

We're tracking for motion. And so if

47:02

you've got a sibling that's bouncing around

47:04

in the background, that's gonna totally distract

47:06

them. Or the dishwasher is running, that

47:09

humming might actually distract them. And so, I

47:11

know you've had Seth Perler on before and

47:14

he mentioned having a sacred study space. This

47:16

is a really, really good idea. For those

47:18

reasons, we're hardwired for distraction. And

47:20

so try to find somewhere quiet to

47:22

maybe do the homework. For

47:25

my kids, they didn't love sitting at a desk, but

47:27

they were willing to do it at the kitchen table

47:29

or on their bed or on the couch with

47:31

me. And then from there, so

47:33

we've covered emotional, I'm trying to keep track of it

47:35

all. So

47:37

from there, then it's like, can you

47:39

do three problems for me? So back

47:42

to that task initiation, they might resist

47:44

it at first. And so three

47:46

problems and they might say, no, I'm, no,

47:49

ma, I won't do it. Okay, how about two? Can

47:51

you give me two? Can you

47:53

give me one? And you can even go as

47:55

far as, will you write your name on the paper? Like

47:58

just going back, back, back and forth. So

48:00

you find something they can say yes to.

48:03

And sometimes at the end of the day,

48:05

really, it's just that you and your child

48:07

have this strained relationship. And

48:09

it's probably time to get a tutor involved

48:12

at that point. Someone neutral

48:14

to come in and work with your child because

48:17

most likely they're going to be polite to

48:19

that person because they don't have any history

48:21

there. And they can get through

48:23

it a lot faster. With my students when we're

48:25

doing homework kind of stuff, I try

48:27

to show them how much you really can get done

48:30

in a 10-minute span. I'll make them aware of that

48:32

time because so many of them do struggle with time.

48:34

They're not really sure how much has gone by. And

48:37

so I'll say, look, we did five problems in

48:39

10 minutes. That's great. So you think

48:41

that's great. If we continue at this rate,

48:44

how much longer will it be till we finish? And

48:47

just having that road mark in their mind

48:49

that it's almost over can really

48:51

help them push through and finish this

48:53

task ahead of them. Those

48:56

are great strategies. Thank you so much.

48:58

And just for listeners, I'll include links

49:01

to the things that Adrienne is mentioning

49:03

and to the Seth Perler episodes. And

49:05

so you can access all of that.

49:08

But you talked about a tutor support. So

49:10

as a way to kind of wrap it

49:12

up, can you tell listeners where they can

49:14

connect with you and in what ways they

49:17

could engage with you if this is something their

49:19

child's struggling with? Absolutely. So

49:21

you can always find us at our website,

49:23

mathformiddles.com. We have a Facebook account,

49:25

Instagram, and we interact on both

49:27

of those. So those are the easiest ways to

49:30

find us. If you want to schedule like a

49:32

free call with me and just talk to me

49:34

about your child and decide, is this the right

49:36

fit? I'm happy to do that. You can

49:39

go over to our contact page and

49:41

schedule a time you submit an email

49:43

and we'll reply with times that work for

49:45

us. And so we've got a growing

49:47

team of people that are trained in multisensory

49:49

math. We're always growing because

49:52

the demand is so high because actually

49:54

multisensory math tutors are a little bit

49:56

difficult to find. So we work all

49:58

online, which means It doesn't matter where you

50:00

live. We can help you no matter what.

50:03

And our parents, while at first they were

50:05

maybe a little bit resistant, because a lot

50:07

of us were not digital native. It

50:11

actually, doing it all online is so

50:13

awesome. I see my students with the

50:15

cats in the lap. They're in their

50:18

pajamas. Some of them might

50:20

have their weighted blanket on them. Whatever

50:22

helps them feel comfortable, like I said,

50:24

all learning is processed emotionally. And being

50:26

in your own home is awesome. And

50:28

you'd be surprised they do not get

50:30

distracted online. They're on task.

50:32

It's super interactive. They

50:34

have items in front of them that we've mailed.

50:36

They're interacting with stuff on the screen. It's

50:39

the best of all things.

50:41

You're not running your child to another

50:43

appointment. They're at home. They're comfortable. They

50:45

say online tutoring is the best, in

50:47

my opinion. So that's my little plug.

50:50

I adore it. It's my favorite. It's

50:53

just amazing the different ways that kids can

50:55

learn today. I still find myself every now

50:57

and then saying to Asher, can you

50:59

believe I went to graduate school without

51:01

the internet? You know, like, is this

51:04

incredible? Yes, what is available and how

51:06

we can get them support in so

51:08

many creative ways. So that's really exciting.

51:11

And thank you for this conversation. Super

51:13

interesting. I got a lot of my

51:16

questions answered. Hopefully, this has been helpful

51:18

for listeners, too. I do know and

51:20

I hear from parents. And again, just

51:23

friends with their kids at math, as

51:25

you know, is just one of those subjects that

51:27

can really stop a kid in their tracks and

51:30

get them stuck. And I just really appreciated

51:32

you sharing all this insight with us and

51:34

the tools and tricks that you share. So

51:37

thank you so much. You're welcome.

51:39

I'm really happy that we were able to do

51:41

that. And I just want to tell parents, you're

51:43

not alone. Math is hard in general

51:46

for most people. So we're here to

51:48

support you. We're here to see your

51:50

child and help them learn in the

51:52

best way possible for them. You've

51:56

been listening to the Chilt Parenting podcast for the show notes

51:58

for this. episode including

52:00

links to Adrienne's website, Math for

52:03

Middles, and all of the other

52:05

resources we discussed and there were

52:07

a lot of them. Visit tiltparenting.com/

52:09

session 119. If

52:12

you haven't had a chance to check out my

52:14

book, The Only Liar, yet, I invite

52:16

you to download the first chapter and

52:18

table of contents at tiltparenting.com/the book. I

52:21

have been lulled over by the response

52:23

from our parenting community so far and

52:25

I'm thrilled to hear

52:27

from parents who say the book is

52:29

for being feel optimistic and confident about

52:32

raising their exceptional kids. I'll

52:34

post an open and end of podcast

52:36

without my weekly reminder to leave a

52:38

rating and or a review for the

52:40

show on iTunes. There are a lot

52:42

of parenting podcasts out there. Those ratings

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and reviews really go a long way

52:47

in helping keep our podcast highly visible

52:49

and that just makes it that much

52:51

easier for me to land bigger guests

52:53

and when I can send out that

52:55

email and talk about how high-performing this

52:57

show is. So thank you so much

52:59

for helping me. And thanks

53:02

again for listening. For more information on

53:04

tilt parenting, visit Well

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