Summary: Toi B James and I explore her book “Talk About It.” Toi gives a 12-step process to help move the most difficult conversation forward. She gives us insight into a process that works. I appreciated the book and the dignity that it can give you in approaching these situations that can challenge the best of us. We all have them, after all.

Vickidawn: Our episode today is Number 30, Having Difficult Conversations. My guest is Toi B James author of Talk About It - 12 Steps to Transformational Conversations, Even When you Disagree. Can you tell us a little bit more about your book, a little bit about you, what you do?

Toi: Sure. The book talks about - it really is a practical guide that people can use to have difficult conversations. When we say courageous conversations, this book really gives you 12 steps based on coaching techniques. As a certified coach, we are trained to actively listen, hold space for people in a real way, navigate difficult conversations. The book really gives readers practical tools. As far as my background, I am the founder and Chief Impact Officer of RedInk Enterprises, which is a boutique DEI&B, Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging Firm that specializes in inclusive communications and engagements.

Vickidawn: Thank you. Well, thank you for being here and I'm excited for our show topic today. We all have those conversations that are difficult. We get stuck repeating the same conversation. I know my husband and I spent some years doing that, revisiting them and we could almost write the script. And some topics also are so uncomfortable, we just don't know how to move them forward. Maybe a work relationship or a family situation. Your book, I found really valuable in that way because it does give you such a nice framework to go deeper. I appreciate it so much.

Toi: Thank you so much.

Vickidawn: You share in your book that you've had uncomfortable moments when others were insensitive in their comments around race. Some people would just wait for others to just get it, but this book is very proactive and empowering. What allowed you to develop the 12 steps to transformative conversations?

Toi: Yes. In the intro of the book is a story about a friend of mine, Masud Olufani, who's an artist who was talking to a gentleman after a performance that depicts the selling of enslaved people here in Atlanta. After the presentation or after the performance, which was amazing, an older white gentleman walked up to him and said, "Why are we still talking about this?" Although I couldn't really hear everything - I wanted to - I was trying - I monitored the body language and the patience in the active listening and how he kept the door open for understanding for the both of them. After the conversation, I fast forward a couple of weeks I met with him. I was like, how did that go? How did you do that?

That would've paralyzed me because at the time, so much was happening in the country that was harmful and painful as a black woman to navigate in the world. Talking about race became very difficult because of course I've grown up seeing people harmed because of something they can't change. It's just unreasonable, quite frankly, racism is. When I met with my student, I was like, so what happened? He was like, "I gave him my number." I gave him a call to see if he wanted to continue the conversation. We did after some hesitation talk a little bit, I asked him if he would like to continue, can always call me and we can continue talking about what happens within the African American community, our history, why it's important to continue the conversation about our history.

He just kind of became my hero in that space. Fast forward, I received an email from a friend of mine who was like, "This would be good for you." It was information about Post Diversity Institute, which is where I was trained as a certified coach. I would have to say after that, I actually got my voice back because I understood that it's not just about my feelings to push a conversation forward. It really is about the people I'm engaging. It's really about discovering. It's really about inquiry. It's really about asking the questions to understand, not necessarily change anyone's minds because we are going to disagree, period, in some cases. When that light bulb moment happens for either one of us, for clarity of understanding, it's a wonderful thing. Then you know there's a door opened to continue.

Vickidawn: That is such a different approach to getting defensive or angry, or when there might be a lot of justification to get angry or defensive, in some cases. You give a clear and thoughtful discussion on challenges to approaching conversations around race, politics, religion, and in the workplace. I want to focus on the family and the application of your tools to improve relationships.

To start with, you provide three levels of communication in your book. I especially like the distinction of a transformational conversation versus a positional or a transactional conversation. That was a little light bulb moment for me, believe me. Can you tell us the difference and the benefits to use this model to go deeper?

Toi: Oh, absolutely. We'll start with transactional, and we all participate in that and really transactional is just asking or telling. Like, "Hey, can you, will you, are we going to, yes, no, we're going to do this instead." However, the response is. End of conversation. Positional is more about advocating, this is where I stand, this is what I believe, this is why. You can even ask, what do you believe and what is your why? Then that's the end unless you actually explore. With transformational conversation, it's really about co-creating because it's about sharing and discovering and asking thoughtful questions and keeping the door open for continued conversations and exploration, which can really just at minimum, you can develop a higher level of understanding, but more importantly, you can build connection to continue as you both grow. I just think having transformational conversations is actually doable even in conversations that are difficult.

Vickidawn: I know I wish I had this framework in a couple of work relationships I had in my past that I didn't know how to take it any further. It became really passive- aggressively adversarial, I would say, I know I have, I think most of us do have, conversations with the expectation that we will come to an agreement. You propose that that's not the goal. What is the goal in your opinion?

Toi: Okay. I will say in some cases the goal is maybe just to come to some conclusion, but for transformational conversations, it really is to understand and to connect. Again, because there will be moments where you just disagree, but that shouldn't end the conversation, if you explore the why, the when, where did you hear that or where did you get your information or what experience did you have that brought you to this position? Or what if I said this, would this alter your thinking? Not so I change it, but does it add another layer to what you're saying? It really is just about asking thoughtful questions and listening intently to understand what the person's actually saying.

When I say listen intently, it's also watching body language, it's listening for the silences and giving them space to think through their thoughts because sometimes questions do that. Not that they necessarily stump you. But they give you pause because it's not something you considered before. If you just hold space for people to let them examine their own thoughts, sometimes the light bulb moment or another thought comes to them in that time, that could change the course of the conversation.

Vickidawn: I especially like your use of silence. We like to fill that silence. If we let it be there. I know my husband is a more deliberate, thoughtful person and he needs to take time and think things out. I'm a jabber, jabber, jabber. Giving him that space is probably a big step towards that connection, which I also agree is a very good goal. That's what we all want, isn't it? (We) feel like there's two ships passing in the night sometimes because we're not experiencing that connection.

Toi: There are moments where people will not want to understand or connect. They just want to say what they have to say and recognize that, if that's the case, you could decide to listen, like I'm just going to listen because they are not open to a conversation or you could decide, you know what, until we're both ready to really exchange conversations, let's just table this. I think we're both really not prepared to have a serious thoughtful conversation about this.

Vickidawn: I like that - that it's a direct approach to not just trying to feel somebody out or getting hurt feelings because you started a conversation and they say, whoa, I don't want to talk about that. I know that listening with empathy and compassion does take effort. Do you have tips on how to show that you're communicating and using them?

Toi: I'm sorry, that I'm communicating in what way?

Vickidawn: Using the compassion and empathy?

Toi: Oh, yes. There is a story in the book that really demonstrates what empathy and compassion are because we tend to use the words interchangeably sometimes, and they're very different. Empathy really is about understanding, I hear you - this is what I heard. Compassion is, I hear you - this is what I heard - what can I do? There's action attached to compassion.

The story in the book which is really about a child sitting at the table, doing their homework, and saying, "Oh, my gosh, mom, dad, I don't understand this." A parent can show empathy, saying, "Oh, my gosh, I hear you don't understand this, it must be difficult." What are you going do? When a child may be asking for compassion - "Oh, my gosh, just seems like it's really difficult, how can I help you, what can I do?" You have to choose what you're going to do, and you have to be very deliberate because to be helpful, you have to define what that looks like.

Vickidawn: If I maybe ask, what would be helpful to them?

Toi: Exactly.

Vickidawn: Yes. What would support you, what would make this easier? I can envision times that would have been useful with my kids too. I was a single parent for 11 years with five kids, so I wasn't always very empathetic or compassionate. It was more like chop chop, get it done. So, hindsight is always 20/20.

I especially like stating what you want to gain from the discussion upfront and asking the other person what they'd like to see happen, that just seems so refreshing and so simple. I don't know why people don't think of it. Do you have tips for those of us who may have a partner or a child that resists this type of conversation?

Toi: Sure. Before you even ask that question, the advice that I give or the recommendation that I share is one - tell them your why and your why can be deeply personal. It's not just about, "Well, I want you to do this", it's, "I care about you, and I know that this is important to you. The end result is incredibly important to you. I would love for us to talk about this particular topic because it will get you to where you want to be because I care about you."

From there, you can say, "Okay, this is why I think this is an important conversation. Why would this matter to you? How would this connect to you? Once you understand their why, it's easier to navigate the conversation so you don't go off the rails, then you start thinking about yourself, if indeed it is to support that other person and if it's a support to both of you, you guys can put guardrails around what it is you're discussing before it gets out of scope.

Vickidawn: Yes, the kitchen sink. The incident 10 years ago.

Toi: Which is why it's important to actually think about that so you both can decide like, "Oh, I think we're getting off-topic here unless that kitchen sink applies, I mean, it depends on what the conversation is, but you can decide together like, "Okay, yes, you're right. That's not what we're here for. We both decided that we care enough to talk about this."

Vickidawn: I like the commitment that you bring to the conversation - that I would bring to a conversation like this to really want to move forward and not just advocate for my position or prove I'm right or convince you that you really messed up there and you should have done it different, and the habits like that we fall into in our communication. I was lucky in that I had a sponsor when I was early in the program who told me to listen to everybody because I might learn something, so it's a habit that I formed, and I still practice that today. I listen carefully to something everybody says around the table, and I'm grateful for that practice. I can't say that I've listened to my family with that same intention. I can see the value when I do it there and how does that improve relationships do you think?

Toi: When I think about how I feel when someone listens to me and I feel as if I'm seen, heard, and respected and that they respect all of me and my opinion. Even if they don't necessarily agree with me, but they're willing to hold space for me. I know how important that makes me feel and how my vulnerability is held with care and I, in turn, want to do the same thing. I also know what it feels like when someone does not care and will not listen to me and doesn't really care about my opinion, although they'll pretend like they're listening, and I never want to make anyone feel that way.

Vickidawn: That's really commitment to connection.

Toi: It is, and my hope is that people do like, even if a topic that they disagree about, if they don't necessarily even like the person as a person in front of them, if they care about mankind, identify what it is that makes this particular conversation that you're having important, potentially, to the both of you, even if it's just for you just to explore to understand. Just understanding what that is will allow you to remain calm and to just investigate, just to examine and explore.

I think that's where the magic happens. People can look at me and assume a lot of things, but if they actually ask me the right questions, they'll find like, "Oh, I didn't think you'd like that, or I didn't know you were from the South or I didn't know your father listened to country music, and you like big rigs. There's so much - we know all of our favorite things but if we really want to get to know someone, there's so much you don't know about the person in front of you, besides what you think is different or the same.

Vickidawn: You use the word vulnerability and I know that working woman-- I was a CPA, so I was mostly in a man's world, so to speak, and attempted to always be tough and strong and no emotions because I thought that was what was part of the deal to show up. And I think if I would have used vulnerability in that relationship that I had so much trouble with, that I was so frightened to be vulnerable in, I felt so open to attack and misunderstanding. Is there a way I could have prepped that - do you think - in my own mind to shift - maybe being clear about the why myself or--

Toi: What comes to mind for me with that without knowing the full story about the relationship that you're referring to is really about being your authentic self and what that is, and so let's just start there. Were you authentically who you were, even to allow space for any level of vulnerability and what did that other person miss because they didn't get to know you as a whole person where maybe they saw a wall and met the wall with a wall.

Vickidawn: That's a very good point.

Toi: I would always advise people, "Be as authentic as you possibly can be with the people who are around you. One, so you could be your best self because when your wall has to go up, you don't have the same level of energy.  Two, do the best in that role or position or in that space because you're not your best self - because you're not yourself."

Vickidawn: Honesty and vulnerability, even if the other person doesn't understand is always a good place to start from and then you can take it from there. If you do need to put up a wall because there are, like you said earlier, places, where the person isn't ready to talk about it, maybe will never be ready to talk about it, and then I would infer I would get to decide how to move forward in the future around topics of importance.

Toi: And with whom. I would preference saying the word boundaries than wall.

Vickidawn: Yes. Walls are permanent, can tend to be permanent, boundaries can be raised and lowered or altered or moved, or yes, I love that too. When I was younger, I had a lot of those permanent walls, and I learned a lot about boundaries. Do you have any final thoughts about your book or about your experience writing the book, did it come quickly, did it come easy, was it just there waiting in a container and all of a sudden boom you-- [laughs]

Toi: It was funny how it happened because we're in a pandemic, I was exhausted from work. We had a lot of changes, and I was a part of the change - managing strategy with managing diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging for my organization as well as my regular job. They just needed someone who understood, who understood the work, who understood the teams. I'd had been there for six years or about six years, so I understood the needs of my colleagues and what I did not understand they also knew that I was willing to explore because I was a coach. They were like, "This is what you do, you are a coach, can you help us?" I was like, "I absolutely can this is what I love to do." I think it was the end of December just around the holidays and I was winding down, although it took a minute because when you're super busy all the time, your brain doesn't catch up with the exhaustion of your body.

Vickidawn: Yes, I know.

Toi: I was sick of watching television, but it was on, it is usually on for noise, and I said, well, you know what, everyone's always saying they don't know how to have the conversation. In corporate America when after the death of George Floyd, it was like, we don't know what to say.

I care about my teams, but I don't know what to say. I would always say, well, lead with that, that's your honest position. If you care about them, that is a wonderful thing to say to them. I care about you, I don't know what to say, but what can I do for you? How can I help? Then you give them the power to determine what the next step is. As I thought about always hearing that as well as with my friends, like I can't talk politics, I can't do this because it's so nerve-wracking and because I had been there or understood. I was like, "I really want people to talk to each other." I just started writing notes down while TV was watching me and I thought, I'll write an outline, then let's fast forward three days.

I'll go ahead and start the first chapter; I'll start doing some research. I did that every night for a month and the book, the first draft was born. I just determined that I wanted to encourage and inspire one million transformational conversations. I think a lot of what we're seeing in the world today is lack of empathy and compassion, a lack of understanding, but a desire to belong to groups because we're always online as like, well I believe this. And I was like, "Do you know where they got this information from? What do you really believe?" I want to understand you, and so I think that's important to me. I think the more we really engage each other in thoughtful, honest, authentic conversations the more we get (each other).

That's just the first step. There's still a lot of work to be done. Certainly, when you talk about inclusion and belonging, diversity and equity as well - my specialty is inclusion and belonging, communication and engagement. I am in that first step like you got to first acknowledge it and then you got to talk about it and then you got to make a plan. Sometimes we can't even talk about it.

Vickidawn: Yes. After reading your book and thinking through the concepts, one thing that I think it will empower me to do is when somebody does say something different, I used to just feel uncomfortable and afraid and change the subject. Now I think it will give me that opportunity to ask more questions. “Oh, well that seems like a strong statement. Where did that come from?” Not take it so seriously like, oh my God. Oh my God.

Toi: Sometimes you have to do it even while you're uncomfortable because it doesn't - you'll be uncomfortable like in some cases - but the steps will give you - it's a practical guide to knowing what the next step is. How do you hold space for yourself and how do you identify? One, this may cause me harm - I am going to back away from this. Or this fear is not real, let me just ask more thoughtful questions because I don't understand and I really want to, so let me stand here in my own power and allowing that person to stand in their own truth. Then we exchange to get to know each other - and you can make those decisions.

Vickidawn: Yes. Trust yourself comes to mind.

Toi: Yes. Trust yourself and if you make a mistake, what can you do? You can apologize.

Vickidawn: Oh, it does.

Toi: Oh my, it seems like I'm so embarrassed, I don't even know what to say. That - say that. You know what - I think I said something that was insensitive, and I wanted you to know that I'm sorry. How could I have said that differently because I don't want to make that mistake again?

Vickidawn: Yes. Those types of communications are simple but so powerful. I think sometimes we think it has to be complicated or harder or… Just the elegance of, oh geez, I really messed up there, I feel like I did.

Toi: If you care enough, it's easy.

Vickidawn: How does our audience find you Toi?

Toi: Sure. yes. Again, my company name is RedInk Enterprises LLC. You can find me at RedInk and that’s - https://www.redinkenterprises.com. From there you can get the link to my Instagram and my LinkedIn business pages. Of course, there's a page dedicated to the book itself so you can have different ways of ordering it. If you want the e-book, the soft copy, all available to you wherever you are, and it's actually shipped internationally. Yes, I am all over the web and easy reach and again, I am a certified coach and a DEI&B practitioner. If you want some support in that area, I'm also available for that.

Vickidawn: I am so impressed with the book - I really am, (and) with our conversation today, I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today.

Toi: Thank you so much for the invitation. Thank you for reading the book. Thank you for inviting me to speak to you and your audience. I really, really appreciate it. Yes. Before I go though, I also want to mention that all of your listeners, if they order the book from bookbaby.com, they'll get a discount, and that information will be on your website available for a month.

Vickidawn: Okay. Available for a month after the show releases, right?

Toi: Absolutely.

Vickidawn: Okay. I'll make sure that I highlight that, so people don't miss that opportunity. It's just a wonderful book. I've already mentioned it to several people, and I pick it up and hold it so they can see the cover and - there's a lot of books and information about communicating. It's hard to find a new angle and I don't want to use the word angle, but a tool that feels refreshing and real and solid. Yes. I really appreciate that.

Toi: I wrote the book that I wanted to read. If I didn't know this, that's the kind of book. This is the kind of book I want, something very practical. Give me steps. Give me examples. Tell me the story. I wrote the book I would want to read if I did not understand how to communicate, having difficult conversations.

Vickidawn: All right. Again, thank you for being here Toi.

Toi: Thank you so much.