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0:53

So in today's episode, I want to talk about,

0:56

I want to take a sort of like break

0:59

for a second from the like

1:02

kind of political anti-capitalist

1:06

kind of conversations we've been having.

1:09

Just a little bit, because we are still going to touch on

1:11

some things, but I want to

1:13

revisit the conversation around

1:16

productivity and being more productive.

1:19

And I want to reframe

1:22

that conversation in such a way that we

1:24

can understand there's actually

1:26

a better goal

1:29

to have.

1:44

Now, one of the things that people write

1:47

in to me about all the time, like I

1:49

literally get this message constantly is like,

1:51

what advice do you have for being more productive?

1:54

How can I be more productive? How can I get more done

1:56

each day? How can I show up more

1:58

and stay focused?

1:59

and all of these things. And over the years

2:02

I've talked about a number of strategies. I've

2:05

been a preacher

2:07

for the Pomodoro technique. That's something

2:09

that I still use to this day. And for those

2:12

of you who are not familiar, maybe you're

2:14

new to the show, the Pomodoro technique is

2:17

a productivity system where you set

2:19

a timer for 25 minutes, you

2:21

work until the timer goes off, you take a 5 minute

2:23

break, do another 25, and then

2:26

after five sets of that you take

2:28

a longer break. And that break can be anywhere

2:30

from 10 minutes or 30 minutes. It's

2:32

an approach that has worked incredibly well for me

2:34

in my life. It's really

2:37

allowed me the opportunity to

2:39

stay focused, especially around

2:41

projects that I'm like not particularly excited

2:44

about. Something about having that ticking

2:46

timer and knowing that you just

2:48

have to make it through this like little

2:51

sprint is incredibly

2:53

useful for getting focused and

2:55

staying focused. So I'm no stranger

2:58

to the conversation around productivity. But

3:01

lately, as I've been

3:03

thinking about my own

3:05

work, what I do on a day-to-day basis,

3:08

everything from this podcast to the app that I'm

3:10

building to my full-time job,

3:12

which I do have a full-time job now,

3:15

and a number of other projects

3:17

that I'm working on and consulting

3:19

things that I'm doing, as I

3:22

look and sort of survey the

3:24

broad list of things that

3:26

need to be done each day, I'm

3:29

starting to realize there is a limit

3:32

to what productivity can

3:34

produce. And what I mean by that

3:37

is

3:38

being more productive is not

3:40

necessarily the answer to

3:43

operating and doing

3:45

your best when you are dealing

3:48

with too many things.

3:50

Now here's why. And to

3:53

explain this, I want to talk a little bit about

3:55

the differences between productivity

3:58

and effectiveness.

3:59

So productivity,

4:02

the way that I view it, is about quantity.

4:05

It's about getting things done, checking

4:08

items off a list. The word

4:10

productivity does not make any judgment

4:13

about whether or not you did the

4:15

right things. It's just about

4:17

producing work, getting

4:20

stuff done. And so

4:22

finishing 10 tasks in a day,

4:24

regardless of the value of those tasks,

4:27

is productive. Like that is a productive

4:29

thing to do. You had an objectively

4:31

productive day. You got all of these

4:34

things done.

4:35

However, as I said,

4:37

it has no measure of

4:40

the value of that task, about whether or

4:42

not you should have done those tasks. All

4:44

it measures is whether or not you did them. Effectiveness

4:48

is about quality. So it's the quality

4:51

of your work in terms of

4:53

was this the right thing to be

4:56

working on? So the

4:58

measure of effectiveness would be finishing two

5:00

tasks that are the most important

5:02

things you should be doing. So instead

5:05

of finishing a whole list of 10 items and

5:07

checking everything off and feeling great because

5:09

you are productive, you instead finish

5:12

two things that were incredibly

5:14

important and necessary in order to move

5:17

something forward. At a basic level, that's how

5:19

I view the differences between productivity

5:21

and effectiveness. And in my

5:24

view, something I've come to realize, effectiveness

5:27

is far more valuable. Now

5:29

that's not to say that these two things have to be

5:32

mutually exclusive. I completely understand

5:34

that they can exist together and exist

5:36

within the same universe. You can be

5:39

wildly productive and effective

5:41

at the same time. I completely get that. But

5:44

I do think that they are often

5:47

dealt with as complete

5:50

opposites. And one of the reasons

5:52

for this, which I'm gonna talk about in a little bit,

5:54

is what's required in

5:56

order to

5:58

accomplish each of them.

5:59

Being effective often requires

6:02

different things than being

6:04

productive, and that leads

6:07

to not always being

6:09

able to do both at the same time. So oftentimes

6:11

you do have to choose, are you gonna be productive or effective?

6:14

Most of us choose productivity.

6:17

Now why does productivity dominate? Well,

6:19

I've talked about this before, but

6:21

for those of you who are new to the show, let's

6:23

talk a little bit about the history of personal

6:26

productivity. So I'm just gonna give a super,

6:28

super brief overview here, but feel free

6:30

to look all of these things up, and

6:32

I'll of course provide some sources as well

6:34

in the description. So back during,

6:37

I believe it was the Industrial Revolution, whatever

6:40

period of time in America, especially

6:43

that factory work, was the dominant

6:46

sort of type of work.

6:48

Of course you still had people working farms,

6:50

you still had people doing other things, but

6:52

the dominant job was

6:55

working in a factory.

6:57

Those people, when they originally

6:59

got into those jobs, they were

7:02

highly, highly skilled. They

7:04

knew how to do the whole process.

7:06

They could make whatever widget it was from

7:09

beginning to end. They knew how

7:12

the cookie was crumbled,

7:14

so to speak. But what

7:17

you get in that type of environment is

7:19

a lot of really, really highly

7:22

talented and qualified people who

7:25

are maybe not working as efficiently

7:27

as they could be, because they are spending

7:29

time switching from task to task. They

7:32

are thinking about what needs

7:34

to happen next and trying to plan ahead. They're

7:37

doing the labor as well as the strategy

7:39

at the same time. And when you try to do both

7:41

of those at the exact same time, because

7:43

they use different parts of your brain, you end

7:46

up

7:46

just moving a lot slower. So

7:48

that was how sort of like the workforce

7:51

started. And this guy, Frederick

7:54

Taylor, he proposed,

7:56

and there were a number of other people that proposed this as well,

7:59

but from what I...

7:59

understand he was the most famous, he proposed

8:02

the idea that by studying the science

8:05

of work, boiling it down to

8:07

a science and math, you

8:09

could lead to higher output. So

8:12

they did this. All of these like factory owners did

8:15

exactly that. They studied the science of work.

8:17

They brought in consultants and they looked

8:20

at what is going on. Where

8:23

is productivity being lost? They found

8:25

that switching tasks and a number

8:27

of other things, essentially trying to do the strategy

8:30

work and the labor work at the same time was

8:33

leading to drops in productivity.

8:35

So what did they do? Well they started

8:37

to separate the tasks. So

8:40

now instead of one person

8:42

being responsible for making the entire widget

8:45

from beginning to end, they

8:47

would have six people who each

8:49

specialized in a specific

8:52

part of making the widget. And

8:54

over time what this created was a labor force

8:57

that no longer understood how the

8:59

entire widget was made. And as

9:01

a quick side note, because you know I've got to throw

9:03

some politics in there, that ended

9:06

up leading to labor having less

9:08

power in the workplace and so on and so forth. But

9:10

we already talked about this and I'm sure we will again in the

9:12

future.

9:12

So back to the question of productivity.

9:15

So they studied the the

9:17

workforce. They looked at all of these areas where

9:20

productivity was being lost, where efficiency

9:23

was being lost, and they improved

9:25

it. They separated the

9:27

jobs focused on each person doing

9:29

their one thing. That meant that they could

9:31

do that thing more efficiently with less

9:34

time needing to switch, less time needing to think,

9:36

and that led to

9:38

increases in productivity. So it worked incredibly,

9:41

incredibly well. So they reorganized

9:44

everything to improve efficiency

9:46

and that became sort of the approach. Now

9:48

remember this is during a time when the dominant

9:50

approach to work was working in

9:53

factories and putting together widgets.

9:57

Fast forward to a

9:59

little bit.

9:59

closer to the world we live in now where work

10:02

is, of course that work still exists,

10:05

but for a lot of people, work is much

10:07

more like cognitive. It's

10:09

digital, it's producing digital

10:11

goods and services and marketing and

10:13

accounting and so on and so forth. There's

10:15

a lot less of like just a

10:18

menial task that needs to be done, and

10:20

it's just significantly more complicated.

10:23

So in this environment,

10:25

we can no longer, companies can no

10:27

longer track productivity in these same

10:29

ways. We can't really measure it in

10:31

the way that you could when the job

10:34

was just to produce a widget. So what do you

10:36

do? Well, you promote productivity

10:38

as a self practice, as something

10:41

that you should aspire to, you the

10:43

laborer should aspire to be

10:45

more productive. But let's

10:47

think again at where productivity came from.

10:49

It came from producing widgets.

10:52

If you could produce X number of widgets

10:54

in the course of a day, you

10:55

were more productive and that was good. So

10:57

from the beginning, productivity was

11:00

meant to focus on producing

11:02

more,

11:03

creating more, developing

11:05

more. It's more, more, more, more, more. That

11:09

is the root of productivity. And so when

11:11

it moved into the world that

11:13

we live in today, where it's a much more cognitive

11:15

thing and we all sort of like self police

11:18

our own productivity, it's still focused

11:20

on more. It's about getting more

11:22

done each day rather

11:25

than

11:26

doing the right work. So that's

11:28

why productivity dominates. It's something that

11:30

we all aspire to because it was,

11:32

we were told that we should aspire to it. That's

11:35

pretty much what it comes down to.

11:37

They told us we should aspire to be more

11:39

productive because that means that we're gonna get

11:41

our time back and we're gonna be able to

11:45

focus on getting the most done and we're gonna be

11:47

more valuable and so on and so forth. But

11:50

that is just not the world we live in today.

11:52

Producing more isn't necessarily

11:54

the right answer anymore. And

11:56

so we run into this issue

11:59

where...

12:00

each of us are truly

12:03

dedicated and focused to how can I

12:05

be more productive, how can I be more productive, how can

12:07

I be more productive, when in actuality

12:09

I believe at least that we should

12:12

really be focusing on being effective.

12:14

So here's what I mean. Being

12:17

effective is far more valuable

12:19

than being productive in today's world,

12:21

in the the really cognitive

12:23

focus complex world that we live in where

12:25

producing more isn't necessarily the

12:28

answer, it's really about producing better.

12:32

Being effective is far far more valuable.

12:34

It ensures that you're spending your time and

12:36

energy on the right things, it ensures that resources

12:39

are being spent on the right things and so both

12:41

from your perspective, the perspective

12:44

of labor and from the perspective of capital,

12:46

being effective is far more

12:48

important than being productive.

12:51

Why would you

12:53

take the time to complete 10 things

12:55

on a list that doesn't matter?

12:57

You would never do that, you would never do

13:00

work that does not matter. Of

13:03

course unless your boss is telling you to, in which

13:05

case you kind of have to and that's on

13:07

them, but if you had a choice

13:10

and there were a list of items, some

13:13

of those items mattered, some of those do not

13:15

matter, you would not choose

13:18

the list of things that don't matter just

13:20

because they're easier to check off.

13:23

No one would tell you that that's a good choice

13:25

and I don't believe that you would choose

13:27

that to

13:28

begin with.

13:30

So that's the thing that

13:33

we need to remember here. Productivity

13:35

is not the right answer anymore. It was

13:38

at some point and we've kind of carried

13:40

it over never questioning if we should

13:42

keep doing it, but it's no longer the

13:45

right choice

13:46

because at the end of the day, since productivity

13:49

focuses on more, really

13:52

all it leads to is busyness,

13:55

whereas effectiveness focuses

13:57

on right.

15:59

Because it's so easy for

16:03

work, for scope, to creep into

16:05

the thing that you're doing before

16:07

you even realize it. It's the entire reason my

16:10

app isn't out yet. Because I keep sitting

16:12

there and coming up with, oh, wouldn't it be cool

16:14

if it did this and this and this and this and this? And

16:16

all of a sudden,

16:18

I'm like a year and a half into this thing and there's

16:20

no app. You've

16:23

got to be super clear with the outcome you

16:25

want to create. And

16:27

then never budge from that. Unless

16:30

it's absolutely necessary. And

16:32

then the last thing, and this is the one that I think is going to shock

16:35

the most of you. But this is where

16:37

that radical, revolutionary thinking

16:39

comes from.

16:40

If you want to be effective,

16:43

you need to prioritize your

16:45

health. You need to prioritize your rest.

16:48

And you need to prioritize your joy over

16:51

your work. I'm

16:53

going to repeat that. If you want to be effective

16:56

at work, you need to prioritize

16:59

your health, your rest, and

17:01

your joy.

17:03

Because if you lose any one of those

17:05

three things,

17:07

you're going to fall into the trap of

17:09

just getting a bunch of things done without

17:12

having access to that beautiful little

17:14

mind of yours

17:16

to decide if it's the right thing to work on.

17:21

You have to prioritize everything

17:23

else over work. And that's the

17:25

thing that makes effectiveness so

17:28

very different from productivity. Because

17:30

productivity tells you,

17:32

here's your list of items, get these 15 things

17:35

done today. I don't care

17:37

what you need to sacrifice.

17:39

Effectiveness tells you,

17:41

here's your list of items, figure

17:43

out what on here needs to be done and what's

17:45

important.

17:46

The only way you can do that is if you are in

17:48

a good place to do that. So

17:52

that's my spiel for the day. Thank you so much for taking

17:54

the time to tune in. I encourage you,

17:56

if you're listening on Spotify, to take today's poll.

17:59

I've been doing polls.

17:59

with each of these episodes, as well as the Q&A,

18:02

just to get a gauge for how you're vibing

18:04

with these episodes and what you're thinking and what's

18:07

going through your head. So take the poll, enter

18:09

the Q&A if you're on Spotify. If you're not on Spotify,

18:11

get on Spotify and take the poll and enter the Q&A.

18:14

It's really not a complicated thing to do. Thank

18:16

you so much for being here. I've been Greg Cluness and

18:18

I'll talk to you

18:19

next time.