0:00

Hi everyone, it's Anne. When

0:04

did you learn how not to cry? Maybe

0:08

when you were little, you fell down and someone

0:10

said, it's okay, don't cry.

0:13

Or maybe at school you cried one day, and

0:16

then other kids made fun of you. I

0:18

mean, it's weird. Crying is not

0:21

only natural, it's healing. There's

0:23

a reason we feel better after a good

0:26

cry. And now a

0:28

new pro-crying movement is trying to

0:30

erase the stigma and encourage us all

0:32

to let the tears out. In

0:35

this episode of To the Best of Our Knowledge, a

0:38

celebration of crying. Wisconsin

0:44

Public Radio This

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Company and affiliates. Price and

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coverage match limited by state law. It's

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To the Best of Our Knowledge, I'm Anne Strangamps. Crying

1:34

is one of the most human things we do. That's

1:39

how we respond to intense feelings,

1:41

like grief or pain, or

1:43

even overwhelming joy. Tears

1:48

actually have a biological purpose. There

1:51

are times we need to cry. But

1:55

what if you can't? There

2:01

is a significant portion of our

2:03

population that struggles with crying. Many

2:06

of them are men. And some

2:09

don't cry at all. Ever.

2:12

I've been feeling like so damn lost. I'm stuck in the front with the A's and

2:14

yours. They're with X's and they hate me all. I'm standing there with my man. I'm

2:16

with my man. I beg. I'm

2:18

calling a friend. I ain't got her entity.

2:20

I understand it. I'm with my man. He's

2:22

painting it. I'm about to scan his feet. I lost

2:24

my man's wrist. I'm about to see him. I'm about to

2:26

see him. I'm about to see him. I'm

2:29

about to see him. I run after some Par

2:31

colonels I have. I'm

2:33

using that Latina bag, white and

2:50

black Enforcement T common. Well,

2:55

and he told Charles Monroe Cain. It

2:59

all started with man zero. Who

3:04

is man number zero? Oh,

3:07

number zero. So

3:10

that was actually me. The

3:13

real me, not my superhero name, me. I

3:17

would say that's

3:19

a man that's been doing a lot of

3:22

healing, a lot of reflecting. A

3:27

lot of just personal work around who I

3:29

want to be in the world and

3:31

how I want to show up. A

3:34

man that has definitely

3:36

had a fair amount of

3:38

struggles and difficulties and places

3:42

that I've just had to come from

3:44

to feel more complete and whole

3:46

and that starting to manifest more

3:48

and more in my day to day life. We're

3:52

human beings. We all have ups and downs and

3:54

problems. But at some point you made the

3:56

decision that this was an issue

3:58

of you being a man. masculinity,

4:00

not just as a human. Now, that's a

4:02

leap. I don't think a lot of people

4:04

take, a lot of men, I don't think,

4:06

take that leap. That must have been a,

4:08

was that a bell rung or what happened? I

4:11

think that was when I started to

4:13

go through the process of therapy and

4:15

started to look at the conditioning, you

4:18

know, whether that be within the family that I

4:20

was in or society, whatever it may be. And

4:22

I started to look back in that mirror of

4:24

where did these beliefs come from that this is

4:26

what I had to do. One

4:29

of the big ones is that my

4:31

value and self-worth is attached to

4:33

what I produce. That's

4:36

probably one of the bigger things that

4:38

I saw that has hugely impacted through

4:40

a lens of manhood and masculinity. In

4:42

juxtaposition to how you feel, right? Yeah.

4:46

Men are what they make, men are what they do,

4:48

men are not how they feel. Yep. I

4:51

think that the metaphor, the thing that men who

4:53

are trying to figure this out come to

4:55

is tears. Actual crying.

4:58

We don't do and something we're told we're not supposed

5:00

to do by our fathers and by society. And

5:03

that becomes the thing, right? I don't

5:05

cry. Wow. My wife

5:07

cries, my girlfriend cries, all these women cry. How come I don't cry?

5:09

I feel it maybe at the movie or in the song, but I

5:11

don't. Do you remember the first

5:13

time you cried as an adult? So

5:18

one of the first times was

5:21

on stage

5:24

actually. And

5:27

I was reading something on stage and you

5:29

would think that with a bunch of eyes

5:31

and a bunch of people around that

5:36

the stories of hold it in bro would

5:38

be strong enough to overcome

5:41

it. But for a while, that

5:43

was the place where tears would manifest the most with

5:45

me would be when I would perform these things. Well,

5:47

hold on. I want to do it back to the

5:49

first time though. I mean, that must have been an

5:52

incredible experience. You're in front of a bunch of people,

5:54

you're doing spoken word poetry. And

5:57

you're talking about these issues and then you cry.

6:00

Yeah. And I think for women out there listening,

6:02

we have to just remind people that sometimes 20,

6:06

25, 35 years old, you could be dealing with a man

6:08

who's never cried as an adult, not only in

6:11

public, but even alone. So what

6:13

did it feel like? I

6:15

don't even know if I was really ready to, I

6:19

didn't process it at the time, the way that

6:21

I think I would process it now. But

6:25

definitely a release and

6:27

relief is the first thing that comes

6:29

to mind about it. But

6:32

as I reflect on what

6:34

that is now is that that was like

6:37

a small breaking point because you're absolutely right

6:39

where I feel like I

6:41

didn't actually learn to talk about or

6:43

name the feelings that may have even

6:45

brought something like that on still

6:48

until years later. Yeah, I know. I

6:50

totally remember. Well, let's go to your movement.

6:52

It's called How Men Cry. And the first

6:55

thing I want to ask you, it's the

6:57

word how we talk a lot

6:59

about why. Yeah. You know, but you said how,

7:02

why how? Yeah, the

7:04

how and how men cry is

7:06

very deliberate, because I

7:09

think that exactly for what you

7:11

were mentioning before, the fact that we're not

7:14

given the opportunity maybe to

7:16

cry publicly or to comfortably be able

7:18

to do so with our partners or

7:20

talk about what's going on deeply, that

7:23

we still find ways to cry out.

7:25

I use one of my poems is

7:27

called Boiled, which talks about essentially, it's

7:29

just the pressure of all these different

7:32

inputs in life that get us to

7:34

these breaking or boiling over points. And

7:37

to me, a lot of the times along the way

7:39

to getting the boil over points, we are

7:41

crying out, we're crying out in low

7:43

feeling of mood or, you know, depression,

7:47

issues with substances, relationships

7:51

with our partners, issues with, in my

7:53

case as well to just like, self

7:56

harm and just all these different ways that we can

7:58

start to bleed out what's going on. going on

8:00

and we don't label it crying, but when

8:02

I look carefully enough and also witness from

8:04

a lot of the men that we'll work

8:07

with and talk with, I see it as

8:09

crying now more than ever. I

8:11

was thinking about the name of your movement. We're

8:13

crying out everywhere. We're crying when we do a

8:15

shot. Oh yeah. We're crying when we get high.

8:18

We're crying when we act violent. If

8:20

you keep building it up and keep building it up, I mean, no

8:22

wonder we live six years less than

8:24

women. It's like we've had build up tears on

8:26

our brains for all those years, you know? And

8:30

it's funny because even now, even

8:33

now I still find those moments. I

8:36

talk about this paradox. One

8:38

of the statements that stood out to me

8:40

from doing this work is stop

8:42

crying before I give you something to cry about.

8:45

And it's this statement of, okay, this

8:48

kid or this young man or whomever it

8:50

is already felt the need to cry from

8:52

whatever circumstance happened. And then they come to

8:54

present that to somebody. And then the response

8:56

is a violent behavior to say,

8:58

okay, I should actually stop feeling that. And what

9:01

I've had to reflect on within

9:03

myself is even sometimes where it's

9:05

perfectly justifiable, somebody has passed away

9:08

or I'm just, we don't need an

9:10

overly justifiable reason to cry. For whatever

9:12

reason, if you felt that going on

9:14

in your body, I still will have

9:16

these moments of, oop, restriction, or don't

9:18

do that or don't let that out. It's

9:21

there. Big boys don't cry. Gimme, gimme something to

9:23

cry about. Those are our father's words. Well, let's

9:26

talk about your workshops because you are trying to

9:28

unravel this onion of masculinity through this

9:31

way. How Men Cry is

9:33

really based on, and I have your comic

9:35

book, which is amazing. Thank you. Your

9:37

graphic novel, I guess, for the workshops. Let's talk

9:39

about the workshop. That's kind of the core of what you do.

9:41

What is a How Men Cry workshop like? If I walk in

9:43

the door, like what would I see? So

9:46

I'll use a combination of poems

9:49

and spoken word material, which actually tend to

9:51

be stories. I kind of tell them in

9:53

these story forms of different life events. And

9:56

then I will Add in

9:59

meditation. In my phone or things

10:01

I'm a big fan of meditating love

10:03

to incorporate it into work because I

10:05

think it's a goes hand in hand

10:07

with a lot of therapeutic practices. And

10:10

then I will also have folks jarno

10:12

and reflect on whatever has actually come

10:14

up for them. So it's this combination

10:16

of you seeing the peace, being able

10:18

to witness those things and reflect right

10:20

the reasons why we live less than

10:22

women as myriad but I mean lot

10:24

of it from some. How we eat

10:27

and will be put into ourselves to

10:29

make ourselves feel better. Yeah, how we

10:31

drink alcohol and when we commit suicide

10:33

weeks minutes violently. some knew we were

10:35

shooting ourselves. we're jumping off buildings. You

10:37

know who receives that cover? Why don't

10:39

we want help? Why What we take

10:41

the helping hand? It's it's almost ridiculous

10:44

that we don't get the hell. Yeah.

10:47

But see was tricky about that point

10:49

is that I can't take it back

10:52

to shouted so much as to do

10:54

with these chowder that influences and how

10:56

were brought up into the world about

10:58

what's okay or not if it is

11:00

drill down to you so let's say

11:03

to just expressing my emotional my feeling

11:05

was might be crime if is drill

11:07

down to you. From. Childhood

11:09

that this isn't a thing that you

11:11

do and you may actually literally be

11:14

punished for this action. The paradox of

11:16

i'll give you something to cry about

11:18

yes type of thing. If

11:20

you receive that conditioning over and over

11:22

and over and over and over again.

11:25

And then by the time you get

11:27

into adulthood, say you're in your thirties

11:29

or whatever it may be. Oh, my

11:31

partner needs me to be close right

11:33

now, See how right? I don't know

11:36

what to do with all of this

11:38

input than I'm having right now and

11:40

I need to find some way to

11:42

talk about it, but the act of

11:45

expressing yourself has literally been something that's

11:47

been on shut down so often. I

11:49

think is what Lisa. this level of

11:51

confusion where we eyes literally want to

11:53

do so they would like you said

11:56

they may have never done so in

11:58

their entire life saddest thing thinking ever

12:00

since I knew I was going to interview you,

12:02

I've been thinking a lot about this issue. I'm

12:04

55 and think about my father and

12:06

his father had died when he was 41 and he

12:09

cried. And he told me this because

12:11

it was a revelation to him because

12:13

he realized that the first time he ever cried. He

12:15

was 41. 41 years old.

12:18

Wow. Jesus. was

12:22

a problem. Yeah. And I said,

12:25

dad, why? Why didn't you do it? Why? And he told me this.

12:27

I don't have any male friends. I

12:30

don't have any friends. And I think that the

12:33

men who are trying to figure this out, they have

12:35

acquaintances, they have buddies that cheer the NBA

12:37

on with and drinking buddies,

12:39

but friends. That's

12:41

what he made is the root cause of his issue. How

12:44

do you help the guys in your workshops understand

12:46

that they need to have guy friends so they

12:48

can talk stuff about it? One of

12:50

my friends was going through a breakup or

12:54

no, she wasn't. Her friend was. And she's like,

12:56

yeah, my friend is going through this breakup and

12:58

she's going to come over later. We're

13:00

going to spoon. We're going to eat ice cream.

13:02

We're going to do this, this and that. And

13:05

just basically come over to be a presence

13:07

and for me to console this individual. And

13:12

really not that difficult of a concept. No, no.

13:15

But it's not that crazy of a concept. Oh,

13:17

I'm having a tough time. I had

13:20

to sit back and reflect and I thought to

13:22

myself if I would ever even with the work

13:24

that I'm doing now like this isn't that long

13:27

ago. This is a recent time. Even

13:29

with what I'm doing now, what

13:31

I have thought to turn and

13:33

say, hey man, I'm going through

13:35

this breakup and I'm having a tough time and

13:37

I don't know how to keep it together right

13:39

now. Can you just come keep me company? Even

13:43

if it's just that. Men don't ask that. And I

13:45

didn't even. You certainly not going to ask to spoon.

13:47

That's the whole other level. That's the whole other level,

13:49

man. But

13:52

I just, but even just that small

13:54

thing of turning to say I'm in

13:56

a moment of difficulty. So now I've

13:58

been making more of a cognitive. effort

14:00

of Jordan check

14:02

in within your window of tolerance or

14:04

check in within what your state of

14:07

emotion is right now. Are you in

14:09

a moment of difficulty in working on

14:11

making the cognitive choice to actually ask

14:13

for help? And I said Jordan, that's

14:15

my government name. That's my superhero name.

14:20

I go out drinking every Thursday night

14:22

and I go with my buddies. There's five,

14:24

six of us total and we're all

14:26

in our 50s. We all have a couple kids and we have

14:28

that in common and there's a local dive bar and we go

14:30

there. And it is

14:32

a lifeboat. It

14:35

is a salvation. Half

14:37

the time it's dirty jokes and doing

14:39

shots. Sometimes someone's getting

14:41

divorced. Sometimes someone's dad

14:43

died. Someone's kid didn't graduate from

14:46

high school. Somebody went

14:48

to a mental hospital. Like when that

14:50

happens, the group gathers naturally

14:52

and changes the attitude. The dirty jokes are gone, right? And

14:54

you go to the thing. And there's a

14:57

guy, one of my friends, and he still does this. His

15:00

wife died some years back and

15:03

he started being a hugger. And

15:05

I'll be honest with you and I tell other

15:08

men this all the time. I'm like, hug

15:10

your friends. I

15:12

love when he comes in. It's not a

15:14

bullsh** hug. It's not the hug because your

15:16

team won. You know, it's the high five crap. He's

15:19

giving me an authentic hug, a real hug, not a pat

15:21

back hug. And it's so powerful that it's

15:23

from another man. What

15:25

do you do with the men you talk to about

15:27

physical contact? Because I think we haven't even talked about

15:29

homophobia. Oh yeah. Let's be real. I

15:31

mean, you and I, spooning is a problem for other

15:34

men, you know? Yeah. So

15:36

one thing that just came to mind that I definitely

15:38

want to share is that I

15:41

still recall one from doing this work,

15:43

but secondly from working on our relationships

15:45

more, I vividly

15:48

remember when my father and I even

15:50

started really, really giving each other hugs.

15:52

And this is within like the

15:54

past few years, but I deeply remember even

15:57

one of the last times that I saw him.

16:00

the difference in how we embrace.

16:03

And you're right. I mean, that was, it

16:06

was healing on so many levels.

16:09

I think about bro culture. And I think about

16:11

where it goes. And it makes

16:14

sense. I totally understand it. The women

16:16

in my life don't understand it. But I totally

16:18

understand that the arm punch instead of the hug.

16:21

Yeah, how many girls can you lay in

16:23

a month? Yeah, lots of muscles and working

16:26

out and protein shakes, whatever. And I

16:29

look at all that and what I now see, I see pain.

16:31

Oh, yeah. And I

16:34

can see why you would want an Andrew Tate

16:36

to look up to be in the Proud Boys

16:38

because it's easier. You know, it's easier than being

16:40

vulnerable and as easy as that. Yeah, yeah,

16:43

it is. And you're right. And it's

16:45

easier. And here's the other thing. It's

16:47

also familiar. Yeah, it's familiar because all

16:49

you've been receiving is toughen up within

16:51

your life anyway. And,

16:54

and then I think, societally,

16:58

one of the things I talked about earlier is

17:00

a lot of men not necessarily feeling hurt. And

17:02

I think what ends up happening is, so

17:06

if you're a young man, new into

17:08

the world, there's a lot of

17:10

criticism that goes towards men now. And I get

17:12

it, I'm not even trying to argue against what

17:14

the criticism is. But I'm just saying, there's a

17:16

lot of criticism that goes towards men. So if

17:18

you're a young man going into the world, social

17:21

media wise, it seems like there's criticism

17:24

that you're not doing anything right. If

17:27

you want to try to talk about something

17:29

that maybe you have complex feelings around, if

17:31

you don't word it just right, you might

17:33

receive this negative onslaught on, you know, social

17:35

media, hard for me to talk to

17:37

my friends about it, because I may not even know how

17:40

to communicate with them in the first place. It's like, where

17:42

are we expecting these people to turn? And I think that's

17:44

more of where my frustration comes. Yep. We

17:46

have so much criticism for where these individuals are supposed

17:48

to turn. And then when it comes to where are

17:50

they supposed to go, then we're like, I don't know,

17:53

just don't be like that. Yeah. Whatever

17:55

you do, just don't be like that. Where else are

17:57

you supposed to do? No, yeah. Good luck out there, buddy.

18:00

Don't do that. Hey, I'm wondering

18:02

if you could end for us, I would

18:04

love to hear one of your

18:06

poems, like... Sure. And let's

18:08

say for men, let's do a poem for men. What's

18:11

a poem that you would like to share with

18:13

the men out there listening? Let's

18:18

go with water, actually, because

18:20

I know that's one that you've read

18:22

or kind of interacted with. And

18:25

even for the listeners, I think it's a

18:27

good summation of where I was when I

18:29

really started doing a lot of this work.

18:34

So, all right. I

18:37

learned how to swim when I was 26 years old. I

18:43

don't know if you all know, but there's

18:45

a stereotype that American black folk can't swim.

18:48

And we didn't really have the best introduction

18:50

to crossing waters, so I get

18:52

it. But I try

18:55

to take the Will Smith approach in life

18:57

though. No, not the whole slapping Chris Rock

18:59

thing, but the taking on

19:01

of a mentality of challenging things that scare

19:03

me. I was a

19:05

bit embarrassed, but I was determined, so I signed

19:08

myself up for an

19:10

introductory swim class. My

19:17

father could swim quite well, actually, but he never really

19:19

took the time to teach me a

19:23

couple of passing lessons here and there, but he

19:25

never really made sure I could. So unfortunately, like

19:27

many things in life, I had to learn how

19:29

to do so by myself. Sometimes

19:32

I get tired of swimming alone. So

19:37

here I go. I learned

19:39

how to dive into the deep end first. They make

19:41

it like a rite of passage. I was trying to

19:43

pretend like I was not afraid, but I could see

19:45

in this moment that I'm this scared little boy all

19:48

over again. Start racing and

19:50

nervous saying the mantra that they teach you, the

19:53

water is your friend. So

19:56

I'm starting to panic, so I look

19:58

around for any means of safety. and I see a life

20:00

raft on the wall so I'm like, well at least they

20:02

can throw it at them to save my path. If this

20:04

really goes south, so

20:07

I squeeze my nose and I close my eyes and

20:11

I jump in. I'm

20:23

actually a pretty good swimmer nowadays, but every once in

20:26

a while when standing at the bottom of the pool,

20:28

I swear that I can feel the pressure of the

20:30

droplets weighing down on me, seemingly

20:32

stealing the oxygen from my lungs. It

20:36

starts to feel like I can't breathe or I wonder

20:38

what will happen if I can't take a breath in

20:40

time. See, I struggle with treading and I'm not all

20:42

that great at floating and I know it deep down

20:44

so in the worst case scenario, I

20:47

panic and I have to push my way back to the surface.

20:53

I tend to swim alone that occurred to me that there will

20:55

be no one that can throw in a life raft. I

20:58

should probably be a bit more responsible but it

21:00

feels embarrassing to ask for a pool buddy when

21:02

you're grown. My boy

21:04

Darren drowned at 22 actually. When

21:15

I was in my worst bouts of depression, I dreamt

21:17

of water a lot, saying the mantra that they teach

21:19

you, the water is your friend but it doesn't always

21:22

feel like it. See,

21:24

sometimes when standing at the bottom of the pool,

21:26

I swear that I can feel the pressure of

21:28

the droplets weighing down on me, seemingly stealing the

21:31

oxygen from my lungs, kind of like how it

21:33

feels to be a man sometimes. When I really

21:35

start to sit back and think about all the

21:37

pressures that I've taken on in the world according

21:39

to others just for fitting in the man category,

21:41

it starts to feel like pressure from all sides

21:44

being told in one moment that it's okay to

21:46

ask for help and being told in the next

21:48

that I need to work my way out of

21:50

this trauma while being scolded for my shortcomings and

21:52

I know that I am responsible for me, I'm

21:54

responsible for the harm that I've caused but I'm

21:56

also responsible to work my way out of this

21:58

trauma and teach myself how to swim and what

22:00

I'm saying is it feels like a lot of water and

22:02

I'm tired of swimming alone so when I tell you no

22:04

baby I'm tired when I say no man I'm good when

22:06

I say baby I don't want to talk about it today

22:08

what I'm really telling you is that I am drowning. When

22:15

I was in my worst bouts of depression I dreamt

22:17

of water a lot saying the mantra that they teach

22:19

you the water is your friend but it doesn't always

22:21

feel like it. I

22:24

started dreaming about just jumping into the water and

22:26

not trying to win the fight for the oxygen

22:28

at all. There's

22:30

an eerie silence under the water. There's

22:41

an eerie silence under the water. The

22:45

pressure of the droplets don't make a sound

22:47

but how is it that they've been so

22:49

loud they've been so loud for so long.

22:51

It bullies you, you fight back you need

22:53

to know how to be tough, crush the

22:55

competition in business no quick attitude you need

22:57

to work a good job. Your self-worth is

22:59

your network strengthen your network, work out bro

23:02

get your gains, build generational wealth. Oh black

23:04

man be a pillar for your community be

23:06

yourself but actually be the version that we

23:08

all want you to be. Show up you're

23:10

so toxic heal yourself get girls what your

23:12

401k looking like ask for help but not

23:14

too much because then you're too soft you're too soft

23:16

you're too hard why are you so angry why are

23:18

you being short of me you're an asshass men are

23:21

asshass be gentle love me back to this weight hold

23:23

on is too much water it's too much water and

23:25

I know that I am responsible for me I'm responsible

23:27

for the harm that I've caused but I'm also responsible

23:29

to work my way out of this trauma and teach

23:31

myself how to swim and what I'm saying is it

23:33

feels like a lot of water and I'm tired of

23:35

swimming alone so when I tell you no baby I'm

23:37

tired when I say no man I'm good when I

23:39

say baby I don't want to talk about it today

23:41

when I say please just hold on please just love

23:44

me through this I know I need to be better

23:46

I know I need to be better what I'm really telling

23:48

you is that I am drowning. And

23:52

sometimes I just need a life raft. And

23:56

that's that peace. Man,

24:02

thank you. I mean, I get

24:04

it. Thank you very much. That's beautiful. Thank

24:07

you. I really appreciate it. Yeah,

24:09

me too. Hip-hop

24:17

artist Dexter Spitz is the founder and

24:19

director of the How Men Cry movement.

24:22

And that was Charles Monroe Kane talking with him. Coming

24:28

up, the evolution of

24:30

crying. How tears made

24:32

us human. I'm

24:34

Anne Strangehamps, and this is To the Best

24:36

of Our Knowledge from Wisconsin Public Radio. And

24:43

P.R.X. There

24:49

are a whole lot of unspoken rules about

24:51

crying. Like if you're in

24:53

a staff meeting and somebody tells a sad story.

24:55

Is it okay to cry? Not without

24:59

making everybody really uncomfortable. But

25:01

if you're in a movie theater watching some kind

25:03

of tragic love story go down, half

25:06

the audience is going to sniffle happily along

25:08

with you. It's even why they went

25:10

to cry. So

25:13

if you shed tears at work, you get a call from

25:15

H.R. But if

25:17

it's at a movie theater, you're having a good time?

25:21

Steve Paulson put the conundrum to Michael

25:23

Trimble, a neuropsychiatrist and author of the

25:25

book Why Humans Like to Cry. What

25:29

struck me about crying is

25:31

how embarrassed people are about crying.

25:34

And working in the medical profession,

25:36

how do doctors approach

25:39

people? Well, the consultation

25:41

seems to be going quite well, and then the

25:43

person starts to cry, and the doctor immediately will

25:45

go on to a different subject. And

25:48

there have been some studies showing this

25:50

is a problem in consultation. So

25:53

I spent some time thinking

25:55

about the whole issue of why I cry

25:57

and the things that I do. that

26:00

may most lead people to cry

26:02

with the knowledge, and this is

26:04

the most important point, that

26:07

homo sapiens, we are

26:09

sapiens, homo sapiens

26:11

is the only living species that

26:14

cries emotionally. Now,

26:17

when I say that, somebody will

26:19

always say, well, my dog cries or

26:22

elephants cry or whatever.

26:24

They don't. Just animals

26:26

or any creature with eyeballs,

26:29

if it's irritated, will

26:31

produce tears. But

26:34

we homo sapiens, humans,

26:36

cry emotionally. And

26:39

crying emotionally, I believe, is

26:41

one of the distinctive features of

26:44

being human. And so,

26:46

you know, people over the years have said, oh, the things

26:48

that we do, that animals don't

26:50

do, is make tools. Well, that's

26:53

been shown to be not the case. Oh,

26:56

animals don't have social communications in the same

26:58

way that we do. That's

27:00

not the case. Well, animals don't have theory of

27:02

mind that we do. Well, again,

27:05

you can question that. But

27:08

animals, non-human species,

27:11

do not, or

27:14

are different, I should say, from

27:16

all other animal species, because of

27:18

crying emotionally. Now, can I just say,

27:20

I find that very

27:22

surprising that our close primate

27:24

relatives, chimpanzees and gorillas, do

27:27

not cry emotional tears, because we know they

27:29

have deep emotions. They can experience grief and

27:31

joy and all of that. So

27:34

why don't they cry? The

27:37

answer is they don't have the right neuroanatomy. And

27:40

so part of the book, why

27:44

humans like to cry, was

27:46

pulling out the neuroanatomy that

27:48

linked certain areas in the

27:50

brain. Loosely, you

27:53

can describe areas like limbic

27:55

structures and cortical structures. But

27:58

also what is most relevant. is

28:00

the descending pathways from the higher

28:02

areas of the brain and the

28:05

emotional related areas of the

28:07

brain down into the brainstem where

28:09

from the brainstem there

28:12

are fibers which go out

28:15

of the brainstem exactly

28:17

to the nuclei

28:19

that lead to

28:21

tearing. Those

28:23

in the human are

28:26

linked pretty directly whereas

28:29

in the primates there are

28:31

connecting way stops which

28:34

don't give that clear direction. The other

28:36

one is extremely relevant too is

28:38

the differences in working memory between

28:41

animals and ourselves. We have fairly

28:44

efficient working memory and

28:47

that is one thing that leads

28:49

to ideas within the

28:51

mind or representations in the mind which

28:53

are held there for a

28:56

sufficiently long time and

28:58

the chimpanzees don't have any working memory

29:00

for music for example. But

29:04

the issue is it's the neuroanatomy which

29:06

connects our various areas

29:08

of the higher brain into the

29:11

areas of the lower brain where

29:13

the outlet goes to stimulate

29:16

crying. Is

29:18

crying fundamentally a mechanism

29:22

for showing or feeling empathy?

29:25

This word empathy has been so misused

29:28

and so misunderstood and

29:30

it has become a high point of

29:32

looking at neuroscience underlying this but

29:34

if you just look at

29:36

empathy I'm full in

29:39

feeling. So there's

29:42

a difference between seeing somebody falling

29:44

down in the street and

29:46

you would think oh gosh I hope he's alright but

29:50

I've got to get on but that's

29:52

different from actually being with

29:54

somebody seeing the emotional

29:57

expressions of somebody in

29:59

difficulty. or in pain or whatever, where you

30:01

actually have the in feeling,

30:04

the empathy, the empathetic.

30:07

And that's a different form of empathy

30:09

from that which a lot of people

30:12

say, oh yes, that's empathy. He

30:14

doesn't have empathy. He doesn't have this and the other. But empathy,

30:16

of course, is quite crucial. It's very closely

30:18

linked with theory of mind. And

30:21

Chris Frith, who's very well known in this

30:24

area, commented that theory of

30:26

mind was one of the greatest developments

30:28

of human cognition. Theory of

30:30

mind is the idea that we have some sense

30:32

of what someone else is thinking. We

30:35

have more than a sense. We actually

30:37

have a feeling of what others

30:39

are feeling. So a

30:42

theory of mind and a lot of the empathy

30:44

issue comes down to

30:46

bodily experiences, not some kind

30:48

of empathic Cartesian mind which

30:50

is floating around, which you

30:52

can identify with. The

30:54

whole relationship of crying,

30:57

but also other emotions, is

31:00

a bodily experience. We bodily

31:02

experience emotion. Now, I

31:04

don't want anybody to go away thinking, oh,

31:07

he doesn't believe that other animals have emotions.

31:10

It is quite clear that they

31:12

do have emotions, but you

31:15

don't know what kind of emotions they

31:17

have. We can anthropomorphize and

31:19

say it must be like ours. And

31:22

it may be, but no way you can

31:24

find out. But clearly the elements of

31:27

empathic experience and even theory of

31:29

mind have been shown in higher

31:31

primates. Right. And then

31:33

to come back to crying, because

31:36

we are such visual animals and

31:38

such social animals, we

31:40

respond very strongly in

31:42

social situations, it would seem

31:44

that when we see someone else cry, and

31:47

the empathy kicks in, it seems

31:50

to trigger an emotional response in us. And we

31:52

are more likely to cry too at that point.

31:56

Does that make sense? Yes, it does. There

31:58

are emotional... triggers, which

32:01

become idiosyncratic, if you like, for each

32:04

one of us. But also

32:06

there are emotional triggers which are

32:08

embedded within our human responses and

32:11

one of which is the tears.

32:13

The, again, some colleague of mine

32:16

did some interesting experiments of looking

32:18

at feelings and pathetic feelings in

32:21

a number of images of people

32:24

with tears, often coming from paintings,

32:26

but with tears. And

32:28

then they showed the same image, but

32:30

they removed the tears and

32:33

the difference in that in terms of the

32:35

response was dramatic. You say it

32:37

said the tears bring a pro-social effect,

32:39

which again is so relevant for those

32:41

very, very early infant bonds. Oh,

32:44

that's fascinating. Now, the other thing that happens

32:46

when we cry is it seems

32:48

to inhibit our ability

32:50

to speak. So recently,

32:52

for instance, I was giving a toast at my

32:54

son's wedding and I just, I broke down, I

32:56

couldn't go on. And I

32:59

cry very easily when

33:02

things get really emotional. I mean, I am just

33:04

very emotional in those situations. So I guess I'm

33:06

wondering, why do I do that? It's

33:09

sort of like it, it supersedes

33:12

language in some way, which I don't

33:14

know what's happening in the brain there for that to happen.

33:17

Yes. They say, Oh, I I'm choked. Yeah.

33:20

Or I can't, I don't know how to express what

33:23

I need to say, but the answer is

33:25

language is really, well, it's wonderful that we

33:27

have this thing called language, but actually, uh,

33:30

the language that we have is totally inadequate

33:32

when it comes to emotional expression. So

33:35

when people have done studies of

33:37

music, for example, or

33:39

reading, and what emotions

33:41

do you get? Here's a list

33:43

of six or seven or 10,

33:45

whatever. The things I'm

33:47

talking about don't come up to do

33:50

with loss, to do with bereavement, to do with

33:52

tragedy. Whatever. You

33:54

mentioned that you are particularly interested

33:56

in crying in response to art.

34:00

I know you've studied theater and tragedy, and of

34:02

course there are all kinds of things that

34:04

make us cry. I mean, we love sad

34:06

songs. We cry at movies. We cry at

34:08

certain kinds of plays. Why

34:11

do we seem to have this compulsion to not

34:13

only create art that makes people cry, but

34:16

then when we experience the art, it

34:19

prompts us to cry? The

34:22

word you might want to use is being moved. Yeah.

34:25

Yeah. Movement.

34:28

Movement. Moving

34:30

to be moved is

34:32

embedded in the language. In

34:36

the study that we did, we looked at quite

34:38

a number of people in several different

34:40

centers of the world looking

34:43

at differences in

34:45

crying to several of

34:47

the arts. We looked at the novel,

34:50

poetry, buildings, paintings,

34:53

statues, and

34:56

music. Now

34:58

if you think about those, what are the arts

35:00

themselves that are moving?

35:04

Well, music. Music

35:06

pulls you forward. It

35:09

pulls you into what is coming

35:11

next. What's the expectation? Where is

35:13

this particular musical phrase going to

35:15

go to? What are the ambiguities?

35:18

That's a moving art. Another

35:20

moving art, actually, where you could

35:22

say poetry is

35:25

moving in terms of everything that's set

35:27

up there. But if

35:29

you think about architecture, and

35:31

if you think actually even

35:33

about paintings or statues, there's

35:37

no movement. In

35:39

the studies that we did, we

35:42

found that the two things

35:44

that were most associated with

35:46

crying were music

35:50

and very close by was

35:52

reading novels. Of course, the

35:54

whole point about reading is that

35:57

you're actually going on a journey. Now it is

35:59

visually... Create it but

36:01

there are within the central nervous

36:04

system pathways that relate to movement.

36:07

That actually become activated when

36:09

in a text you read

36:11

a word like moving. And

36:15

so there are engrams or

36:17

something like that i'm quite good the words but there

36:19

are issues to do

36:22

with reading a text

36:24

certain words that activate

36:26

movement ideas within. Our

36:28

brains which are linked

36:30

again to those emotional

36:32

relationships limbic structures and

36:35

the pathways out of

36:37

the brain down to the areas i talked

36:39

about. Why are we drawn to

36:42

tragedy to these very

36:44

powerful things that happened but

36:47

tragic things that induce crying

36:49

why do we want to see that kind of art. Because

36:53

it's life. It's

36:55

life it's all the book

36:57

that i have just written on this is

37:00

called. Love and death

37:02

in opera and it's new with

37:04

unexpected death in opera i don't know if anybody's listening to

37:06

interest in opera but there's all kinds of

37:08

questions why does he's all the die. But

37:11

the idea of of

37:13

tragedy is deeply embedded in

37:16

the whole of our.

37:18

Culture and homo sapiens the

37:21

traps that people are in the

37:23

relationships that are possible and not

37:25

possible but there are few

37:27

fundamental things in human life which

37:30

the king faces and the

37:32

poor faces and you and i face and

37:35

one of them is a son. Getting married

37:37

that leads you to cry. Professor

37:41

triple this has been absolutely fascinating

37:43

thank you very much. Well

37:46

it's been a pleasure i can

37:48

see so few people are interested

37:50

in crying i'm delighted to meet

37:52

somebody actually has cried themselves and

37:55

understand what i've been talking about

37:57

thank you for inviting. Michael

38:05

Trimble is a neuropsychiatrist at the

38:07

Institute of Neurology, University College London.

38:10

His book is called Why Humans Like to Cry.

38:13

Tragedy, Evolution, and the Brain.

38:16

See Paulson talk to them. Coming

38:21

up, you're sitting in a darkened

38:23

theater watching an actor cry. Are

38:26

the tears real or fake? Does

38:29

it matter? I'm

38:31

Anne Strange-Champs, and this is To the Best of Our

38:33

Knowledge, from Wisconsin Public Radio,

38:37

NPRX. There

38:46

aren't a lot of places where it's okay to cry

38:48

in public. One

38:50

of them is the theater. Several

38:55

years ago, I was in a play called The Guys.

38:58

It's based on a true story about a fire

39:00

captain in New York, a 9-11

39:02

who loses eight of his 12 men. It

39:05

has to write eight eulogies, which is that to

39:07

a journalist, to help him write them. Theater

39:12

artist, Jen Flann. The

39:18

play starts with a monologue from the character

39:21

I played, Joan, who's the journalist, and she

39:23

comes on stage every night

39:25

alone. No elaborate

39:28

set, and spoke to

39:31

the audience, taking

39:33

in where

39:35

I was, who was

39:37

in the room, and

39:40

the collection of trauma

39:43

and grief and pain that they all brought

39:45

into the room. That

39:49

would move me to tears.

39:57

There's two kinds of silence in

39:59

the theater, too. me there's that

40:02

bored silence which is brutally painful

40:04

but there's another kind of silence that

40:06

feels a little bit electric and

40:09

when audiences are crying

40:11

they're often deadly silent.

40:20

Were you supposed to cry? Sometimes

40:24

folks think the script will say

40:26

and now Jen's tears start

40:29

flowing and sometimes it does say that but

40:32

I think that crying like

40:34

in life comes unexpectedly

40:39

but that comes from listening

40:41

and that's acting

40:43

to me versus performing.

40:54

One night after the show this

40:57

guy much taller

40:59

than me strong guy first

41:02

thing he says to me is my wife dragged

41:05

me to the theater here tonight. I

41:08

had never seen myself on

41:11

stage before. I

41:14

didn't know that was possible. I

41:17

didn't know that those kinds of stories could

41:20

get told and I think we

41:22

only got that feedback because

41:24

we were willing to tell the

41:26

truth. Crying

41:33

on stage can be a kind

41:35

of shorthand for great acting in

41:38

the movies tears win Oscars. Here's

41:41

the question though can

41:43

you tell when an actor's tears

41:45

are real versus when they're performed?

41:49

As a theater artist and educator Jen

41:51

plants works hard to teach her students the

41:53

difference. There's

41:58

a lot of fakery there's The thing in

42:01

the theater we called T I

42:03

V Tears Invoice which is. A

42:05

way of speaking. Where you can

42:08

make it. Sound like

42:10

you are holding back tears.

42:12

Very. Difficult to

42:14

get through what you have to say.

42:16

that saw say I just perform that

42:19

I'm not near tears. You can. Do

42:21

that on stage. But I think

42:23

one reason why. I hate

42:25

to say it because of. Dedicated. My

42:27

life to the theater and live

42:29

performance is that sometimes. Why people are

42:31

bored at the theater is because. It

42:33

is state. So.

42:36

If. You're directing play.

42:39

And you want to produce? That.

42:41

Kind of emotion. For.

42:43

Real. How. Do you talk

42:45

about that with your actors? Please say. I

42:49

think when you're first starting out

42:51

as an actor, you're very results

42:53

oriented, so crying seems like the

42:55

same price as a result. Tangible

42:57

results, So. Sometimes an actor

42:59

what? That's what would be a very emotional speech

43:01

in the play. And the thing that. To.

43:03

Me a young after will do is try

43:05

to turn on it's years right Turn a

43:08

little bit of the say three on try

43:10

and make themselves Time within always says are

43:12

you crying and a player So if I'm

43:14

an actor I think the why am I

43:16

crying right now am I crying because I

43:18

want to So the audience all the most

43:20

in that I'm feeling I was so off

43:22

my great skill or am I crying because

43:24

I care centers and something is moving through

43:26

me in a moved to tears a lot

43:28

of since in like were trying not to.

43:30

Know. If you're trying to get this

43:32

person to marry you, you're trying to

43:35

get this person to leave the country

43:37

and never speak to you again. Focusing

43:39

on that action and sitting on the

43:42

emotion because you're human and you care

43:44

and emotions been a simmer anyway, and

43:46

that's a little bit of reverse kind

43:48

of thinking, but I think somehow you

43:51

have to get an actor's mind off

43:53

the results from. I'm

43:55

thinking about what it must be like

43:57

to be an actor. And

44:00

night after night. Maybe.

44:02

For weeks if it's a long. Running place.

44:05

You're going out on stage.

44:07

And if you're successful, if

44:09

you're good at what you

44:12

do, you are having unbelievably

44:14

instance may be kind of

44:16

searing emotional experience onstage night

44:18

after night. People

44:20

do. Think

44:24

everybody has their own coping mechanisms and

44:26

I think. Sometimes. That's

44:28

why there's a stereotype of actors

44:30

drinking or using drugs, because is

44:33

is a way to release, right?

44:35

It's a coping strategy to sort

44:37

of escape what. You.

44:39

Went through because to me acting

44:42

if you're doing it right. You.

44:44

Are you. You. Don't

44:46

become this other person. How.

44:49

Do you see you? At. The end

44:51

of the. The. Evening. In

44:54

a we talk about oh somebody set

44:56

will say they feel really good after.

44:58

Have been cry and a know when is

45:00

it feels like. I think

45:02

it depends and look at what resolution the

45:05

plague of view but. I

45:07

think. It is. Utterly

45:10

exhausting. I.

45:14

Know another play I did that

45:16

was about the Bosnian war or.

45:19

It was this theory.

45:21

emotionally. Wrenching play

45:23

and when it was over I

45:25

used to just sit in my

45:27

dressing room with the laid off

45:30

and eat from. This science can

45:32

have seized all such as look

45:34

up on the senate's to sort

45:36

of reconnect with my own reality

45:38

because the thing about acting as

45:41

it's not fair a d. Shouldn't.

45:43

Be. But acting problems are like

45:46

problems. And like problems are acting

45:48

problems. You cannot go through life

45:50

as a close person, close off

45:52

to other experiences lacking empathy and

45:54

then get on stage and expected

45:56

old open up. doesn't work

45:58

that way So you kind

46:00

of have to figure out how do

46:03

I open up on stage and

46:05

keep myself open in life but keep myself

46:07

safe in life too. I can't be that

46:10

open in real life. Do

46:12

actors ever need therapy? After

46:14

playing a difficult role? Of

46:16

course. Of course they do. Really?

46:19

I don't mean to laugh. In my

46:21

graduate school program, to get

46:23

an MFA in acting, we had weekly therapy, which

46:26

is the smartest thing that graduate school ever did.

46:29

I think the industry has

46:31

gotten better over time in

46:33

realizing that you're not another

46:35

person. If you go on stage and

46:37

get murdered every night, even though it is

46:40

a fictional story, it's

46:42

still my body out there

46:44

that's getting, quote, murdered, unquote,

46:46

every night, I have to go through

46:48

that experience. How do I process

46:51

that afterwards? How do I keep that in

46:54

a space that isn't impacting

46:56

my everyday life? So

46:58

I think the idea of emotional safety in

47:00

the theater is becoming much,

47:03

much more important. Whereas

47:05

I think when I first started acting,

47:07

it was a bit, here's this horrific

47:09

scene that you have to do. You're

47:12

going to experience trauma every night and then we hope

47:14

you join us for a beer afterwards. There was no

47:16

sense that you might need

47:18

to process it. Yeah. What

47:21

is the larger value

47:24

to the culture, to society

47:27

of tears and grief

47:30

in theater? I mean, we're talking about

47:32

a tradition that goes back to the

47:35

ancient Greek tragedies and

47:37

beyond. So I think it's more

47:39

than just people will feel

47:41

better after they've cried. I

47:44

noticed that the ancient idea of

47:46

catharsis, but I also think the

47:48

theater serves as a container

47:51

for things that we just

47:53

can't express in real life.

47:57

And so we carve out these spaces where you can

47:59

cry. cry at a funeral, you

48:02

can cry in the theater, you

48:04

can cry at a film. But what's

48:07

interesting about those spaces is they're

48:09

all collective and

48:11

the spotlight is not on you. The spotlight

48:14

is on someone else. I

48:17

think about it in teaching sometimes too.

48:19

I had a few

48:22

years ago, a student that

48:24

I was close to died

48:26

by suicide heartbreakingly. I'm

48:28

so sorry. And I was

48:31

close to him as a teacher

48:33

is to a student and since

48:36

then at the beginning of every

48:38

semester, I talked to

48:41

my students about the basic

48:43

needs statement in my syllabi

48:45

saying, look, there are a lot

48:47

of things way more important than any class you'll ever

48:50

take. And I had

48:52

always mentioned this student

48:54

because I want them to know

48:56

that what

48:59

I'm talking about is real.

49:02

I'm not just reading

49:05

something off a piece

49:07

of paper that was boilerplate provided by the

49:09

university. I know

49:11

what it's like to experience pain and

49:15

loss. And sometimes I cry

49:18

when I talk about

49:20

this and sometimes I

49:22

don't. But one thing I have learned

49:24

is I don't apologize for

49:26

crying when I do, which

49:32

I think is often our first impulse is

49:34

to say we're sorry. Yeah. I

49:37

saw a production of Mary Stewart on Broadway

49:39

many years ago. And as

49:41

I was leaving, I went to the bathroom

49:43

and a woman was just weeping uncontrollably,

49:45

just sobbing, sobbing, sobbing, leaning on

49:48

the kind of table where you

49:50

put your makeup on sobbing, sobbing.

49:52

And I just asked her if she

49:54

was all right. Everybody went by

49:57

her and said, are you okay? Do you need

49:59

anything? And she said, said, yeah, I just

50:01

was so moved by the

50:03

play. It just really, really affected me.

50:05

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm

50:07

so sorry. She kept apologizing. And I

50:10

thought, why are we living in

50:12

a time where you are apologizing

50:15

for being moved by a piece

50:17

of art? Why

50:20

is that shameful? Yes. And

50:24

how do we have a culture in

50:26

which she's apologizing when the

50:28

people who should be apologizing are all the people

50:30

who weren't moved enough in some ways.

50:32

The problem is a

50:34

culture that can't

50:37

deal with it where we're supposed to suppress

50:40

the actual real tears, but

50:43

then we'll celebrate fake tears. It's

50:45

why I've said

50:47

this before too, listening is

50:50

a radical act. So that one to sit

50:52

in the theater and really listen to that

50:54

story with really amazing

50:56

actors. It was an amazing production,

50:59

really powerful and truthful to really

51:02

listen to that kind

51:04

of pain, to really listen to that

51:06

kind of betrayal, to let yourself sit with

51:09

it. And because you're

51:11

human, you also know pain, you

51:13

know, betrayal, you know, grief, you

51:15

know, fear, you know, shame. So if

51:17

you're fully listening, something is

51:19

going to move through you. And

51:22

I think it says something really

51:24

interesting about our culture that she hid in

51:26

the bathroom. Apologize

51:29

for crying. And like you said, most

51:31

people just ignored it. Jen

51:40

Plants teaches theater and dramaturgy at

51:42

the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She's also

51:44

the founder and artistic director of

51:46

Third Ridge Theater. To

51:52

the best of our knowledge is made

51:54

each week by Charles Monroe Kane, Shannon

51:56

Henry Kleiber, Mark Rickers, Steve Paulson and

51:58

me, Anne Strand. Our

52:01

technical director and sound designer is Joe

52:03

Hartke, this week with help from Angela

52:06

Bautista and Sarah Hopel. Additional

52:09

music from Dexter Spitz and SoloFlare.

52:12

Thanks to all of our guests and the you

52:14

for listening. Be well and

52:16

come back often.