0:00

Hey friends, it's Anne. Today

0:02

we're bringing you a conversation from

0:04

Kelly Corrigan Wonders. As

0:06

a podcaster, Kelly is a

0:08

kindred spirit. Curious, genuine, caring.

0:11

And this conversation with Darryl

0:13

Van Tonkren is about one

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of TT Book's own core

0:17

values, intellectual humility. It's

0:19

about the magic that happens when we stop trying to

0:22

be right all the time. I hope

0:24

you enjoy the conversation. Welcome

0:31

back to Kelly Corrigan Wonders. My conversation

0:33

partner today is an academic

0:35

named Darryl Van Tonkren, and he's helping

0:37

me to understand the ins and outs

0:39

of something called intellectual

0:42

humility. One

0:46

little trick is, well, as

0:48

you said, kind of writ large. There's a fear

0:51

that like, okay, I'll do it if you'll do

0:53

it. But like, I don't want

0:55

to be the dummy who's like, tell me

0:57

more about your point of view. And then

0:59

the conversation ends and they never say, well,

1:01

why are you pro-choice? Though

1:03

I must say I'm pro-choice, and

1:06

I've had several incredible conversations with people

1:08

who are pro-life. But

1:10

they were as considered

1:14

and sincere

1:17

in their

1:19

beliefs as I feel that I am,

1:22

which goes to this other trick, which

1:26

is that most of us think this

1:28

is an other people problem. Most

1:30

of us rate ourselves kind of highly

1:33

as like, we are intellectually humble,

1:35

but man, you just

1:37

can't find anybody out there who is. Oh,

1:41

absolutely. Most people say humility is exactly what

1:43

I want in a partner, right? Or what

1:45

I want in my friends. But please don't

1:47

ask me to do that, right? It's a lot

1:49

more work. You're absolutely right. It's something

1:52

we want in others. But

1:55

the irony of that is not lost on me, that

1:58

if it's something that we believe that we

2:00

need to cultivate collectively, we have to start

2:02

with ourselves. I can't force anybody to be

2:04

humble. The moment I try to force someone

2:07

to be humble, what I'm probably doing is

2:09

humiliating them. And humiliation is different than humility,

2:12

right? Humility comes from within,

2:14

and we have to willingly

2:16

engage in humility. And it is

2:18

a little bit like a prisoner's dilemma, right? It's like we

2:20

both are turning the

2:22

keys at the same time. It's like, I'm going to be humble, you're

2:24

going to be humble, it's going to be great for us. But

2:28

there are times in which us

2:30

being humble might be

2:33

a bit contagious. And again, if we can rest

2:35

in that security, I think there's

2:37

something rather attractive and appealing about humility,

2:40

because it's a signal to other people of how you're

2:42

going to be treated in a relationship. And if people

2:45

notice that you're humble, I think

2:47

that's going to wear off on them.

2:49

What's the relationship between humility

2:52

and curiosity? Extremely

2:55

close. I think curiosity

2:57

is a necessary feature

3:00

of being intellectually humble, right? Because

3:02

what curiosity says is, I don't know, but

3:04

let's go find out. And to me, that

3:06

is such an intellectually humble posture. And

3:09

so I think any technological,

3:12

social or cultural advance has

3:14

been an intellectually humble and

3:16

curious approach, right? It says,

3:19

we don't know, but let's go find out. And

3:21

I think we can do that with others. So

3:23

usually when people say, oh, but I, but, you

3:25

know, I do listen to other people, usually

3:28

we're just waiting for the other person to

3:30

finish while we're mentally formulating our arguments. And

3:33

then we just try to rebuff the perspective.

3:35

And what we gloss over is that this

3:37

is someone who's actually trying their best. And

3:40

it's another human who's pretty convinced of these

3:42

views. And we're not

3:44

actually curious about why it is that

3:46

they believe those things, or what might

3:48

be motivating them to hold a certain

3:50

perspective. Right. Because if

3:53

all knowledge is partial, then

3:57

everyone is partly right. And

4:01

we are totally fine with that for

4:03

99% of the world, our

4:05

self excluded, right? We think everyone else

4:07

has the partial knowledge, but we have

4:10

a little bit more knowledge than other people,

4:12

right? So it's like that above average effect,

4:14

like I might be, you

4:16

know, kind of partially ignorant, but I'm not

4:18

as partially ignorant as others. Emily

4:20

Prone is a psychologist at Princeton

4:22

and she calls that the biased blind spot.

4:25

So we can acknowledge our bias, but we

4:27

think other people are more biased than we

4:29

are. We're just a little less biased than

4:31

they are. Same with don't

4:33

we all kind of rate ourselves as more moral

4:35

than we are? Absolutely right. Other

4:38

people might be moral, but we're more moral, right?

4:40

These are kind of like central concepts that we

4:42

think about when we're like thinking about

4:44

who we are and who other people are. And

4:47

we absolutely give ourselves a nudge in those areas.

4:50

I think that's actually potentially

4:52

a path, which is

4:54

if you say, oh, God, I would

4:57

kind of gave myself a four out of five on

5:00

integrity and everybody

5:03

else is a three out of five. Or a

5:05

two out of five. And then

5:07

someone were to say to you, you know, everybody thinks

5:09

that, which means probably that

5:11

you're more like a three and maybe

5:14

everyone else is a three. So then all

5:16

of a sudden I'm

5:18

in a completely different space

5:21

because there isn't this delta.

5:23

I'm not perceiving myself as

5:25

somehow slightly, quietly superior.

5:29

Exactly. Because sometimes also when

5:31

people act humbly, implicitly,

5:34

we're like, we're so good for being

5:36

humble. Did you see how I listened to

5:38

them? Pat, pat, pat. I really am. Yeah,

5:40

I have a lot of people overheard that.

5:42

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. And

5:44

I think letting people

5:46

know that there's an automatic percentage

5:49

penalty when you rate yourself on

5:51

humility, right? Or you assess

5:53

your own bias. You need to deduct 20

5:55

percent. Then you were

5:57

always going to have a gap, but the gap between you

5:59

and other people. people evaporate or it inverts, right?

6:01

And there's probably situations in which the people

6:03

who are the least humble probably think they're

6:06

the most and the people who are the

6:08

most think that they have the most work

6:10

to do. Right, right. And

6:12

so then it's like, if you're

6:14

partly right, you crazy uncle at

6:17

Thanksgiving dinner, then

6:19

maybe my job is

6:22

in what way? Like this

6:24

sort of discovery period when

6:26

you're listening to think, if

6:29

I definitely assume that there's something

6:31

in what he's saying that is

6:34

right, then maybe I

6:36

should look for it. Yep, and

6:38

that's your mission, right? That's your mission while

6:40

you're chatting is to figure out what is

6:42

that right thing? And how can

6:44

I identify that in a way that honors

6:46

this person's humanity and just doesn't reduce them

6:49

to a belief? You know,

6:51

sometimes when I'm meeting someone new or

6:53

a group of friends or talking about someone new,

6:56

someone will quickly kind of cut to, oh, but what

6:58

do they believe about this? And

7:00

it's almost like a rough metric of at the end

7:03

of the day, am I gonna like this person or

7:05

not? Right, and I think those

7:07

things should be independent. We should be able to

7:09

like and be friends with and interact with people who

7:11

differ from us on a number of different dimensions. And

7:13

it shouldn't just be, I wanna make

7:15

sure they're on my team. And then if they are,

7:17

they're worth cultivating a relationship with. And if they're not

7:19

on my team, well, then I can kind of discard

7:21

them. I know. In

7:24

which case you have to believe

7:28

or make yourself

7:30

believe that it would be more

7:32

interesting or more

7:34

fun or there's more growth

7:36

potential in socializing with

7:39

people who know different things

7:41

or have a different side

7:43

of the story that they carry with them and

7:45

clutch to their hearts. To

7:48

the degree that people believe that

7:50

a diversity of viewpoints and ideas

7:52

and individual strength in teams and

7:54

really kind of help push ideas

7:57

forward, we should be thinking about a

7:59

wide variety of ideas. of beliefs and ideas and

8:01

ideologies being considered, and why would we not

8:03

want to expose ourselves and truly get to

8:05

know those perspectives as well. Homogeneity of groups

8:07

makes really quick decisions, right? If we've got

8:10

like a similar group, hey, we're on the

8:12

same team, we get it, we share the

8:14

mission, we share the vision, we

8:16

get it, we go forward, but we're all

8:18

pointed in the same direction, and sometimes the

8:20

direction we're pointed is well off the road,

8:22

and we're careening toward this cliff, and we're

8:25

all like, isn't this fun as the car

8:27

is flying through space about to careen down

8:29

into the valley? And so, although

8:31

it's a lot more time and work, there's a

8:34

lot of value to a diversity

8:36

of perspectives and viewpoints and ideologies,

8:38

and it does slow

8:40

things down, and maybe that's what we need,

8:43

maybe we do need to slow things down. We

8:45

are a bit addicted to speed and efficiency, and

8:47

we like to make quick decisions, because

8:50

sometimes we think that quick decisions mean that

8:52

they're right, and I'm not

8:54

always certain that that's the case. Like

8:57

a fast agreement is

8:59

a little bit like a lot of

9:01

followers. Like it seems to confer that you've

9:04

found the answer so quickly, and everyone agreed

9:06

immediately, that was the way we're gonna

9:08

make the brochure in green. You

9:11

know, it's just like so obvious to everyone, and everyone

9:13

walks away feeling great, but that's

9:15

a really great thought, is that maybe we

9:17

have sacrificed too much in the name of

9:20

speed and efficiency, and that in the great

9:23

ranking of values, somehow

9:25

that edged ahead of

9:28

making a deeper, more considered

9:30

decision, or a decision that's

9:32

more inclusive or informed, and

9:35

so you just have to re-engage with

9:37

the thrill of making a better decision.

9:39

You have to decide in your

9:42

heart that like this will be

9:44

actually more fun and more successful,

9:47

even if it takes longer. There's

9:49

that terrible temptation to

9:51

drive faster when you're lost. Oh,

9:55

I do that all the time. Isn't that weird? Yeah,

9:58

and it's almost because on a... certain level

10:00

there's a bit of shame because I'm like I shouldn't

10:02

be lost and I want to cover my mistakes so

10:04

if I go a little bit faster then maybe

10:06

I can get back on track. And

10:09

in the same way you know sure

10:11

if we if we make ideologically

10:13

homogeneous decisions quickly and in the

10:15

moment it feels like it's a

10:18

faster decision I'm not sure that

10:20

down the road if

10:23

we ever course correct for that we're

10:25

actually any more efficient right if

10:27

we have to actually reconvene people and be

10:29

like well we really made a mistake everyone

10:31

hates green for this pamphlet because we didn't

10:33

ask anyone and then we redo processes over

10:35

and over and over again it

10:39

might be less efficient than if

10:41

we slog through it together in the messy

10:43

middle and kind of get a

10:45

better first decision as opposed to a

10:47

fast first decision. Yeah and if

10:49

you think about relationships and like how

10:51

many times you have to touch an

10:53

issue before you make like

10:55

an inch of progress it's

10:58

like that where it's like you're just

11:00

busting through these conversations and somebody's like

11:02

yeah yeah yeah but you're not really

11:04

like moving the needle at all it's

11:07

a little bit measure twice cut once

11:09

right where it's like let's just slow

11:11

down and get out the pencil and

11:14

get out the measuring tape and actually

11:16

do this right once and for all.

11:18

Yeah and part of that is

11:20

it's emotionally taxing work right regardless of kind

11:22

of what it is and we have to

11:24

do our own work and we have to

11:26

kind of face our own stuff and we

11:29

don't like that too much right like culturally

11:31

we'd much rather take a

11:33

pill or kind of zone out than feel the

11:35

tough work absolutely or

11:37

blame if someone else's fault it's not me

11:39

if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have

11:41

lashed out in anger exactly. Right because

11:44

nothing's like more of an out

11:46

than blame. That's right. You know I mean

11:48

you're just awesome. It's trusty. Yeah that's

11:51

exactly right. One thing I saw you

11:53

say was may

11:55

our beliefs be ever reforming in

11:58

the light of sufficiently strong evidence,

12:01

which is a little bit of a

12:03

warning against becoming

12:05

overly deferential or timid.

12:10

Yeah, that's right. So I think one of the

12:12

myths of intellectual humility is that we're just either

12:14

wishy-washy or we don't believe anything. I take

12:17

the perspective, I want to believe something until

12:19

there's something else to believe, right? So I'm

12:22

going to hold a belief and I might

12:24

even hold it fairly strongly, but

12:26

then I'm also open-minded, hopefully open-minded

12:28

enough that if there's

12:30

evidence to believe something else, that's what I shift

12:33

to. But I don't think that

12:35

being intellectually humble means I don't believe anything,

12:37

right? Or I'm convinced immediately

12:39

by my uncle at Thanksgiving, but then when

12:41

I'm getting pie I'm convinced by my aunt

12:43

and now I'm back in the other camp,

12:45

right? So there needs to be a bar

12:48

in which we realize that that evidence is

12:50

sufficient for us to change our minds. And

12:53

there's something you did about size. Yeah,

12:55

so humility is really about being the right size,

12:58

right? Not too big and not too small. So

13:00

a lot of people are familiar

13:02

with the ditch of being too big in a

13:04

situation. So that's when you show up and you're

13:06

the novice and you act like everyone should have

13:08

listened to you and defer to you. But

13:10

in the other hand, humility

13:13

is also about not being too small, right?

13:15

You don't want to be servile

13:18

or you don't want to be, you don't

13:20

want to shrink your expertise, right? You

13:22

wouldn't want a neurosurgeon to come in on the console and

13:24

ask you, hey, what do you think I should do? I

13:27

don't know. You're the neurosurgeon. You

13:29

tell me. So it's about being not

13:31

too big, but also not too small. That's

13:34

so funny. That was your example. When I had

13:36

breast cancer in my 30s and when I went

13:39

in, she asked me about

13:41

how I felt about breast preservation. And

13:45

I was so undone by it. I was like,

13:47

I, that is not a priority here. I'm 36.

13:49

I have a two year old and a one

13:51

year old and I'd like to live until

13:53

I'm 80. So that's,

13:55

that's the criteria. You

13:58

can make all the other decisions. And

14:00

I would think that in relationship

14:02

if a person were being withholding

14:05

their expertise or withholding whatever knowledge they might be

14:07

able to bring to bear on whatever it is

14:09

that you're debating, whether it's like should you pull

14:11

your kid out of that school, should you

14:14

take your mom into a home, like that

14:17

doesn't serve anybody. Right. And

14:19

I do also think that there's a nuance here that certain

14:22

people should have their voice

14:24

should carry just a touch more weight

14:26

if they have the expertise. Right.

14:29

And we need to have the humility

14:31

to defer to the experts in

14:34

situations to realize,

14:36

yeah, they know a

14:38

little bit more of what they're talking about than

14:41

we do. And I absolutely and

14:43

I agree with you completely that if we're an

14:45

expert in a situation, it's up to us as

14:47

part of our responsibility to be the expert and

14:50

share kind of what we know and the knowledge we've

14:52

accrued. Even if it

14:54

disrupts kind of relational harmony. Yeah,

14:57

because I do think that there is a

14:59

way that you can do it without being a jerk. And there's

15:01

a way that you can do it that kind of softens the blow. But

15:04

right, you don't want to be the person

15:06

who has no sense of self and just

15:08

becomes a doormat in a relationship either. Because

15:10

some people are so committed to relational harmony

15:13

that even when they see all the red flags or

15:15

they're not getting their needs met, they just continue to

15:18

go along with the relationship and they won't speak

15:20

up, they won't say anything. And

15:23

that's not that's not humility either. That's just kind

15:25

of having a lack of

15:27

self-concept and no boundaries. Yeah. Yeah.

15:31

And that everything, I mean, in

15:33

a really serious relationship

15:36

of any type where you really want

15:38

it to be real, you

15:41

cannot optimize for harmony. No.

15:45

You have to optimize for something even

15:47

beyond harmony. Although

15:49

in my marriage, like with Edward, I always

15:51

say that's below the line. We don't need

15:53

both of us to bring to bear our

15:55

entire brainpower on like

15:58

what to do this

16:00

printer thing. Like do we rehab it

16:02

or do we get a new one? Like I'm just

16:04

gonna say it's below the line. Whatever you want to

16:06

do do or if you want me to do it

16:08

I'll make a decision. But I do not want to

16:11

discuss that. I don't think it's worth it. I think

16:13

we get too much on our plates. Both of us

16:15

work full-time. Like keep moving forward. But if

16:17

it's about Claire or Georgia then

16:20

I think we should slow way down. So there's

16:22

a little bit of prioritizing. It has to go

16:24

on before you decide whether you're

16:26

optimizing for harmony, efficiency, or

16:28

excellence of decision. Maybe

16:32

another thing to consider is you know in relationships

16:34

we could optimize for health. And

16:36

sometimes you have to disrupt harmony in order to

16:38

get to health. Because sometimes if

16:40

you're in these patterns you might

16:42

be moving toward a lack of health. Right? Be

16:44

kind of moving away from both

16:46

people feeling like they're being heard, seen getting

16:49

their needs met. And the disruption of harmony

16:51

is exactly what you need to say, hey

16:53

we've been shifting in this direction. We need

16:55

to actually reorient towards being more healthy individually

16:57

and together as a couple. Yeah. What

17:00

is creeping moral amplification?

17:03

Yeah so creeping moral amplification is is

17:06

where we have certain

17:09

beliefs that we in

17:11

our mind hold as absolutely off-limits

17:13

and unwilling to discuss. So these

17:16

are kind of morally superior

17:18

beliefs such as child

17:21

abuse. So I'm never gonna think child abuse is

17:23

okay. In fact it's not really up for discussion.

17:25

And I don't even think it'd be really intellectually

17:27

humble for me to entertain the perspective that child

17:30

abuse might be okay. And so

17:32

I kind of close my mind to that. I've

17:34

made up my mind and I'm pretty resolute. Creeping

17:37

moral amplification or a creeping moral sacralization

17:39

is where we kind

17:42

of give everything the same or lots

17:44

of things the same type of sacred

17:46

moral status that we do those really

17:49

cherished beliefs. And so almost

17:51

everything becomes this central moral issue

17:53

that is off-limits that I'm unwilling

17:55

to discuss and it becomes the

17:57

cornerstone of my belief system. And

18:00

so when everything gets that elevated

18:02

moral status, it becomes impossible

18:04

for us to talk with other people

18:06

because everything is that holy grail

18:09

that we're unwilling to negotiate

18:11

about. And then the problem

18:13

with that is not only does it make it difficult for

18:15

us to talk with other people or potentially

18:17

change our minds, if you

18:19

think about it, it also waters down

18:21

and weakens the things about which you

18:24

should feel very strongly, right? If everything

18:26

has the same moral credence or moral

18:28

stature as my view on child abuse,

18:30

then what does that mean about child

18:32

abuse? Right? Does it even mean

18:35

that it's that much more important for me to hold

18:37

my beliefs firmly? So it weakens

18:40

the beliefs that should be strongly held and

18:42

it inflates the ones that should be more

18:44

open to change. Like

18:47

whether pineapple belongs on pizza.

18:50

That's right. That's right. The Hawaiian

18:52

pineapple pizza debate will rage and rage, but we should

18:54

be willing to go on one side or the other

18:56

and have friends who are willing to put pineapple or

18:58

not on their pieces. How

19:01

many non-negotiables are reasonable

19:03

to hold? Like

19:05

when should we wonder about ourselves

19:07

and how many things we have on

19:09

this non-negotiable list? Maybe I'm a

19:11

bit of an idealist or maybe it's because I've done a

19:13

fair amount of deconstruction of my own life, but I would

19:15

say maybe the number that you

19:18

can hold on one hand. I mean, so

19:20

for me, it's not many. There's a few

19:22

things that I hold that I'm really, really

19:24

pretty confident about. And it's

19:26

not because I just want to be confident

19:28

about. It's more because

19:30

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and

19:33

I've actually read pretty widely and I've talked to

19:35

a lot of people about these different things and

19:37

I'm feeling pretty settled about those. So I don't

19:40

know, four, five? Yeah,

19:43

it's like internal settled law. One

19:47

thing that might look like

19:49

intellectual humility from the outside

19:51

is shifting the target

19:53

of your vitriol. Yeah,

19:56

yep. So we see this quite a bit. So one area

19:58

that I'm going to talk about is the do

20:00

research on is religion, and particularly

20:02

religious change. And so one of

20:04

the things I see is that sometimes when people

20:06

leave like a fundamentalist religion where they

20:09

were, you know,

20:11

really kind of angry and

20:13

spiteful towards the out-group, once

20:15

they leave that, they

20:17

just invest really strongly perhaps in

20:19

like liberal politics or

20:22

progressive ideology, and then

20:24

they get really spiteful and hateful towards the other

20:26

out-group, right? So it's just they do a 180,

20:29

but it's not that they've made any

20:31

particular change in how they view or treat

20:33

other people. And so William James says

20:35

a great many people think that they're

20:37

thinking when they're merely rearranging their prejudices.

20:40

And so if you go from being a

20:42

hardcore Republican who hates Democrats to a hardcore

20:45

Democrat that hates Republicans, I don't think you've

20:47

actually gained any intellectual humility

20:49

in that moment. I just think you're

20:52

an angry person who's finding

20:54

new targets to be angry at. And down

20:56

deep, you're trying to kind of

20:59

meet these needs for certainty and security by

21:01

taking it out on other people. Right,

21:03

right. There's no growth. No,

21:06

there's no growth. There's no expansiveness or

21:08

tolerance for ambiguity or living in the

21:10

gray. Or like existential

21:12

distress tolerance, as I once

21:14

heard you say. Yeah, I could

21:16

really suggest that we as a culture

21:18

lean into that. And this is I mean, this

21:21

is never going to happen, but we could just

21:23

come. Thank you for being here. Yeah,

21:25

I mean, I've got to be honest, if

21:27

we could just come to terms with the

21:29

with the reality and the fact that there

21:31

are these pressing existential questions around which we

21:33

orient a lot of our cultural worldview. So

21:35

we're all going to die one day. We're

21:37

all isolated from each other. We have

21:40

to figure out what the meaning of life is. We have

21:42

to figure out what our identity is.

21:44

All those things causes so much anxiety.

21:47

So what we do is we buy

21:49

into these cultural worldviews, right, religion, politics,

21:51

nationalism, that are supposedly going

21:53

to give us the answer to these questions. And

21:57

anytime anyone suggests otherwise, we

21:59

feel anxious. and so we get defensive. And

22:02

so the alternative is to hold our beliefs tentatively,

22:04

but then we have to walk around with the

22:06

anxiety. We're far more tolerant,

22:08

but we feel the anxiety. So we

22:10

bear that cost. And

22:12

if we could just realize and we could

22:14

embrace and for each other, we

22:17

could agree to bear that existential

22:20

anxiety and become tolerant of that

22:22

existential distress. We'd be

22:24

far more open-minded, far more accepting and

22:26

loving, and much less defensive when encountering

22:28

people with whom we disagree. Who

22:31

are like the paragons of intellectual humility?

22:33

Who does what you just said? I

22:36

mean, who's living now or past, whatever,

22:39

wherever you have to go for these people. Yeah,

22:41

I mean, if we kind of borrow one

22:44

person from history, kind

22:48

of think about, even in like a religious

22:50

perspective, there was Paul

22:53

who, or he was Saul previously,

22:55

kind of like persecuted

22:57

religious people has this religious conversion and

22:59

kind of changes, right? So

23:02

that's kind of someone who like shifted their

23:04

viewpoints. In terms of someone who lives

23:06

with a lot of existential distress tolerance,

23:11

to me, the Dalai Lama seems

23:13

as someone who can kind of

23:15

just embrace the present is

23:18

less fearful or anxious about

23:20

the unknown future and

23:23

embraces others with a

23:25

deep and genuine sense of compassion. And

23:27

so to me, that seems to

23:29

be an exemplar of someone who has

23:32

come to peace with existential

23:34

reality and can live with some of that distress.

23:37

And that's gotta point you back to

23:39

detachment, which is detachment

23:41

from things and from people, but

23:43

also from your convictions a little

23:46

bit, like just holding everything more lightly.

23:49

That's right, everything more lightly and a sense of

23:51

security and being okay because we are not

23:54

our convictions for more than that and we're

23:56

different than that. We're more indifferent

23:58

than our beliefs, more indifferent than our beliefs. identities

24:00

or ideologies. There are

24:02

examples of systems changing,

24:05

you know, putting women on the

24:07

pulpit or the

24:09

food pyramid, like changing the food

24:11

pyramid, or all

24:13

of the madness during the pandemic. Do

24:16

this, don't do this, do it this way. Try

24:18

this, wear this mask, don't wear the mask, wash

24:22

your milk jug, don't wash your milk

24:24

jug. Right, exactly. Right, right. And

24:26

you can see in just in that

24:28

recent past, how

24:31

maddening and what

24:34

a lack of confidence, back to

24:36

that dangerous idea, that

24:38

created in the CDC

24:41

and the part of the country. Because

24:43

watching someone change their mind gives

24:45

all of us this sense of

24:48

like chaos. Yeah, totally,

24:50

right. During the pandemic, it was this

24:53

extreme threat. And so in that moment, the thing

24:55

that we want is a clear leader who's going to

24:57

provide us with certainty. And we want clear

24:59

directives. But the way that science

25:01

works is it's the self correcting process. And

25:03

so even though it was really uncomfortable

25:06

to watch it play out on a public

25:08

stage, that's actually how science works. So we

25:10

get this idea, we test the hypothesis, wipe

25:12

your milk jugs, and we realize you don't

25:14

have to wipe your milk jugs. So it

25:16

gets revised. Part

25:20

of that process of the revision and

25:22

part of the process of, you know,

25:24

changing your mind is part of

25:26

progress. But it's unsettling

25:28

because it chips away at certainty.

25:31

And we fail to

25:33

realize all the times we've changed our minds. And

25:36

so we kind of ignore we always think

25:38

that we've thought what we currently think. And

25:40

we overestimate the degree to which other people

25:42

believe the same things that we do. And

25:45

then when we change our minds, we again

25:47

overestimate the degree to which we think other

25:49

people hold our beliefs. And in fact, they've

25:51

even shown that when people change their minds,

25:53

they're convinced that God too has changed God's

25:56

mind. So God is on your side. Wow.

25:58

And so. Yeah, we

26:00

really don't like the idea of changing our minds

26:02

because it's unsettling on some degree. Yes,

26:05

and also we're very low

26:07

tolerance for authorities changing. Like

26:09

there's, you

26:11

know, teaching techniques, it's

26:13

like a thing that just turns over

26:15

every two years, diet advice turns over

26:18

every two years, and parenting

26:20

advice like sleep on your stomach,

26:22

sleep on your back. It's

26:24

hard because what people will do is they'll throw their hands

26:26

up and they'll say, well, I don't know what to believe anymore.

26:29

Right. Instead of saying like, well, maybe this is the

26:31

best advice that we have for right now. And

26:33

then people will say things like, well, I don't believe

26:36

in science as if gravity needs you to believe in

26:38

it so it can hold you on the earth. Right.

26:41

And so they just kind of give up

26:43

on these external experts or sources of knowledge

26:45

or guidance. Right. Where

26:48

in that moment, maybe the best thing

26:50

you could say is I believe in

26:52

progress. I believe that as new information

26:54

and evidence, as you say, becomes available,

26:56

we should adjust to it. Right.

26:59

And what I'm going to do is do

27:01

my best to be responsive as best as

27:03

I can and as practically as I can

27:05

to the newest information. Yeah. If

27:08

you have a parting thought for us to like

27:10

put us in the right frame of mind, give

27:12

it to us, Daryl, save us. Okay,

27:15

I would say intellectual humility, you

27:17

can boil it down to three things. So the

27:19

first is to know yourself. So to be

27:21

aware of your strengths and your limitations, to

27:24

acknowledge the biases that you have

27:26

and to admit that you only have the partial truth.

27:29

The second is to check ourselves. So

27:32

to rein in our selfish motivations, our

27:34

ego, to accept the blame

27:36

and share the praise and to

27:39

communicate non-defensively. And the third one is

27:41

to go beyond yourself. And

27:43

this is to ensure that you're listening

27:46

to other people, you're open to their feedback,

27:48

you're willing to revise your beliefs and you're

27:50

working hard to take the perspective of others.

27:54

You know, I really want us to

27:56

embrace this As a

27:58

joy, not. A

28:00

duty. You. Know like if

28:02

what if we all. Get.

28:04

This month long. Deep. Dive

28:07

An intellectual humility. And

28:09

came out the other end and thought this

28:11

is so much more son. Like. I'm

28:14

actually learning and growing at a rate that

28:16

I haven't in years. And years And years,

28:18

You know, I'd I'd never think it's too

28:20

early those stars and I never think. It's

28:23

or early enough to stop. I think

28:25

that this is for every age and

28:27

I think you know inducing with unless

28:29

we humility rains have the humility really

28:31

does open you up and you are

28:33

going to learn more and you're going

28:35

to. Expand You're going

28:37

to grow. Precinct One is the

28:39

things that it offers is this

28:41

incredibly liberating decentering of yourself. or

28:43

you realize that you're not the

28:46

center of the world of the

28:48

universe and is as incredibly freeing

28:50

to realize that sometimes you're right,

28:52

size is particularly smaller and the

28:54

scope of of the universe. And

28:56

so for me, when I get

28:58

immersed in nature or I I

29:00

I go perceived something extremely the

29:02

vast or sousa realize how small

29:04

am. It's so freeing since I

29:07

walk away thinking i don't matter and

29:09

nephews so great. Because the pressure's off

29:11

like the world has existed long

29:13

before I got here and know

29:15

exists long after I'm gone and

29:17

that south. So good. The honestly.

29:20

We've. Become overwhelmed with are in gratitude

29:22

and we just feel a little bit

29:24

lighter when we realize it's not all

29:26

about us. That's. Why I pod

29:28

this podcast Kelly Corrigan wonders Cause I

29:30

love want her. Love it, love it

29:33

there. Yet a vast thanks for getting

29:35

started. And twenty twenty three And just

29:37

the right foot and. My

29:45

son or my conversation with barrel

29:47

hands, Hunger and. Number

29:49

One confidence is not. Expertise.

29:53

and for two two questions to add

29:55

to your mental processes what's your source

29:57

and how strong is the evidence Number

30:01

three, emotional reasoning

30:04

is a deep ditch. Things aren't

30:06

true because they feel true. Number

30:10

four, motivated by avoiding

30:12

uncertainty, we do

30:14

a really poor job of being in

30:16

the process. Number

30:19

five, humility is sexy. Fall

30:22

in love with people who can say, I don't

30:25

know. Number six,

30:28

a lot of people make money as long

30:30

as our small force is external. Number

30:33

seven, if all

30:35

knowledge is partial, and it is,

30:37

then everyone is partly right. Your

30:39

mission is to figure out what is that

30:42

right thing. Number

30:44

eight, slow down, re-engage

30:47

with the thrill of making a

30:49

better decision. Number

30:52

nine, beware creeping moral amplification,

30:54

not all wrongs are commensurate.

30:58

Number ten, we can't optimize

31:00

for relational harmony. And

31:04

number eleven, hold everything lightly. We are

31:06

more than a belief. We are more

31:08

than being right. We are more than

31:11

ideological superiority. Or,

31:13

more concisely, know yourself,

31:16

check yourself, go beyond

31:18

yourself. I want to

31:20

thank Darrell Van Tongeren for his work,

31:22

his research, his writing, his teaching. I'd

31:25

also like to thank the Greater

31:27

Good Science Center and the John

31:29

Templeton Foundation. They have given us

31:31

access to so many cool resources

31:33

that have helped inform this series, including

31:36

a fantastic community of thinkers

31:38

and storytellers who have completely

31:40

enriched this work for us.

31:43

So, thanks, Greater Good. Thanks,

31:45

Templeton. I want to thank the team at

31:47

Kelly Corrigan Wonders. That's Dean Kateri, our

31:49

technical producer, and Tammy Steadman, our executive

31:51

producer. I want to thank you

31:53

guys for sharing this episode with the people in your

31:55

life who are striving to get along

31:58

with people they don't always agree with. with.

32:00

This is one to share widely. We'll be

32:02

back on Friday with another For the Good

32:05

of the Order and on Sunday with another

32:07

Thanks for Being Here. That

32:22

was Daryl Van Tongeren talking with

32:24

Kelly Corrigan on Kelly Corrigan Wonders.

32:26

You can see what else she's got

32:28

to offer at kellycorrigan.com or wherever

32:31

you get your podcasts. And we'll

32:33

see you on the main show this weekend. Thanks

32:35

for listening. you